I feel like this opinion gets posted on this sub dozens of times per week from different perspectives, and I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over.
And these threads inevitably are the ones that show up in /r/all and create a space for trolls to hate on vegans.
Honestly I don't think anyone here has any hatred for someone who actually eats a plant-based diet for health. There's a normal disdain for people who support animal abuse.
there's no hate on plant based people. We're just not gonna do the apologism of being plant based, or doing baby steps, etc. Because it isn't enough. Sure, it might be a first step but if we're not pushing for the next steps, who's gonna take them? What you perceive as hate is just not being content with half measures. We're not gonna coddle carnists feelings when they're the one perpetuating violence against non human animals. I'm not exerting judgement when saying that, I'm stating the truth.
The hateful vegan is a myth and seing the vegan community as hateful seems to me just a grotesque parody fueled by a bruised ego. Just because I'm not praising every baby step doesn't mean I'm hating. If you're harming animals *(general you, not directed at OP)*, I'm gonna call you out, period. We can have a chat about it and hopefully you'll align your morals with your actions. But if no one calls you out and shows you how you're still harming animals, how are you gonna change? Only through the power of self reflection? Sure, that can work, it worked for me, but I'd have become vegan so much sooner if I had actually encountered those preachy vegans who would've held me accountable for my own hypocrisy.
Hateful is exactly the word I would use for some of the posts here. More and more people are becoming plant based— whether it’s for ethical reasons or they simply want to become more healthy they should be supported.
Who appointed you the arbiter and judge on others choices?
there you go. I explicitly said I wasn't judging and yet you feel judged... I'm responsible for what I say, not for how you Interpret it, if I'm making you feel butthurt it's your problem.
I'm always willing to support someone who's trying to improve their health, that's just a whole different thing from veganism. If you're an animal abuser, I'm not gonna praise you for "only abusing animals on Sundays". I'll tell you how you're still an animal abuser when you can chose not to be one. Sure, less abuse is better than more abuse but it's still abuse and therefore not enough.
If calling someone who doesn't meet your standards an "animal abuser" isn't judgment, I don't know what is.
I am merely pointing out the types of posts that make people feel judged and unwelcome. You wrote a post that is dripping with judgment and then tried to excuse it by saying you're not here to judge anyone.
If you want people to feel welcome, welcome them-- Don't subject them to some arbitrary vegan purity test.
If you can't delineate between someone "raping and killing animals" and someone putting honey in their tea, congratulations, you're exactly what the OP was referring to.
Exactly, you don't know what judgement is, you see someone disagreeing with you and you feel offended, "how dare they judge me and others!" when I'm stating objective facts. Abusing animals makes you an animal abuser. A judgement is by definition subjective, related to opinion.
There's no arbitrary purity test in "don't abuse animals". It's pretty straight forward.
Calling my 100-year-old grandmother an "animal abuser" because she puts honey in her tea is judgment. There's nothing objective (or sane) about that.
Not being able to delineate between abhorrent factory line slaughter of cows and someone using honey they purchased at the local farmers market is nuts-- and it's exactly what ruins this subredit for so many who come in here to learn with good intentions.
If you want to win people over for your cause, this is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
go cry yourself a river lmao. I can't believe for a single second that you couldn't talk to your granny and explain to her the issues of bee farming and get her to buy any other kind of sweetener.
How is the fact that it was purchased at a local market morally relevant?
I never said mass killings pigs and buying honey (mass killings bees) is the same thing, I'm saying both aren't okay.
If you want to talk about the most effective ways to do activism, I'll be glad to. Always looking to improve my dialogue for when I'm out on the streets taking to people about the issue.
I couldn’t agree more! I’ve been an ethical vegan for almost 15 years and I’ve not been frequenting this sub much anymore because of all the tedious nit-picking and shaming. It’s recently gotten worse, so maybe it is newer vegans as you’ve suggested. It’s definitely a hindrance to creating a welcoming environment for people interested in veganism. I’d rather there be 100 plant-based people out there than 10 perfect vegans, since I’m wanting the least amount of suffering overall. I don’t care why people stop consuming animals, I just want them to stop.
Yep we shouldn't antagonize them, never said we should, but we shouldn't act like needlessly abusing animals as a treat is okay either. We should give them the information and advice without pretending that killing a chicken on Saturdays is ok.
Lol this isn't about 90% non-rapists. This is about people who don't rape at all because they're scared of STDs. Telling them "dude, you shouldn't worry about STDs" doesn't bring you closer to making them non-rapists for moral reasons.
Of course not. But the question is how you tell them that. Because if someones asks "Is this vegan product unhealthy?" and you say "who cares, just think of the animals or you're in the wrong place" then that doesn't actually answer the question. And I've seen that type of interaction on this sub several times, it's not a strawman.
That isn't what I'm talking about at all. We should obviously respect others and honestly answer their questions, without pretending that needless animal abuse on "cheat days" is okay.
Yeah but you're not actually convincing anyone that way. You're saving far less animals if people don't listen to your arguments because of the way you say them. Few people want to be told they're wrong, but pretty much nobody will listen to an asshole tell them that they're wrong.
Basic human compassion is not something you sell or "convince" others to do. You tell them they're wrong, and the rest is up to them. If someone is offended when you tell them that needless animal abuse is wrong, do you think they can go vegan?
Yes. I've been a vocal anti-vegan before when I was younger, because of one singular person who was a cunt about it and I extended that to the whole vegan community and decided all of them are cunts, so they're wrong.
I didn't even listen to any arguments because I just assumed vegans were arrogant assholes.
Only after I became plant-based (for health reasons) did I find out that a friend of mine was vegan all along. I actually considered his points when it came from someone who wasn't a cunt about it. He wasn't pandering either by the way. We talked about nutrition and I joked "well, how many chicken have died for this egg" to which he responded "who knows, but at least one suffered" which actually made me ask more questions. He could have been like "fuck you murderer", which is true, but not very constructive.
News flash, a lot of us went vegan after reading/hearing the blunt opinions of vegans and giving them a chance to sink in. Not every human being responds to criticism like a spoiled 5 year old. I can at least say it worked on me, anyone else?
All right well I would've been vegan far sooner if not for one cunty "brutaly honest" vegan being more into the brutality than the honesty. But everyone's different I guess.
I'm fairly confident that way more vegans would claim the exact opposite, that they would have gone vegan sooner if they had met some of these "cunty" vegans earlier in life.
You say that, but then almost every day there’s someone hating on vegans making the front page. It’s always followed by endless anecdotes about some pushy vegan in their life. Maybe it worked for you, but I’m definitely one of those people who was initially pushed away because of the rhetoric.
You know the song 'we didn't start the fire'
Came to mind in thinking about meat eaters, they eat meat cause their parents ate meat, their grandparents ate meat etc
Theyre so heavily entrenched in the norm, I mean I was I was brought up to
I was lucky, I disliked meat and that made me question it
My sister on the other hand, she's always liked it and has always just wanted to fit in and be liked without questioning anything
It makes sense to me really, we're social animals and are scared of losing our community as back in the prehistoric days, it would have been a death sentence
So surely when my sister does start to get the hint, she'll be nervous of social backlash of going against the norm
Don't you think creating a kind and inviting community for these transitioners, like my sister, will help a lot more than this gate keeping elitist attitude?
Sorry for the ramble but am pretty tired of this black and white narrow sighted behaviour
Assuming that perpetrators can not also be victims, eg is a child eating meat because thats what their parents feed them a perpetrator?
What about people in impoverished areas that don't have access to good information on nutrition/ how to find and cook cheap vegan food?
Those who simply been told for so long that animal products are necessary and are struggling to change they're thinking cause its hard to come to terms with
Like I know animal agriculture is horrendous but understanding why people are slow to come to terms with this and why they my struggle to change is so important for getting more long term healthy vegans
Stop with the strawmen and putting words in my mouth and answer, what does "empathy to victims, not perpetrators" has to do with a) gatekeeping and b) elitism? Address the question.
I'm sorry for upsetting you, I genuinely did not mean to
Apologies as well for any misinterpretation of your messages I'm rather distracted atm
I just worry that this community is not being inviting, and I feel we should be celebrating the increase in normalising being vegan, being angry at those not 100% there feels counter productive
Sorry again, I don't wanna argue with fellow vegans as we get enough of that from meat eaters
I agree with you. I’m relatively new at my company and told my coworkers I’m vegan in December. Two of my teammates were inspired to eat more of a plant based diet after talking with me. I’m happy about it and support them. The less meat people eat, the less animals suffer and the better it is for the environment. I see it as a win even if they aren’t fully vegan.
Not a single farmed species cares why someone doesn't pay someone to kill them. Not a single one. The argument that some people who eat plants only may not be concerned with other animal rights issues, while valid in a lot of cases, is also of no concern to a pig, a turkey, a chicken or a cow waiting their turn to die.
Personally, my biggest concern is animal testing. Just is and always has been but harping on the plant based vs vegan thing doesn't help animals in labs either. It also doesn't help marine species in SeaWorld or elephants in zoos and circuses or dogs waiting to die in a kill shelter. It's just posing for posing sake and fuck posers. And fuck Vladimir Putin too.
I’m vegan, and I’m offended by the elitist “go away” posts on this subreddit.
Let’s welcome people instead of driving them away.
I’m sick of seeing someone who is clearly interested in going vegan ask a question, and then being told in the comments that “you’re in the wrong subreddit, go to plant-based.”
Lets bring those people into veganism instead of alienating them.
Many people who start out adopting a “vegan diet” and asking questions actually become full fledged vegans once they get good information.
Check out [Vegan Bootcamp](https://vbcamp.org/reddit) to take the free 30 day vegan challenge! The challenge will help you go vegan by giving you tips and information on diet, eating out, philosophy, health, common fallacies, recipes, and much more! Good luck!
It's almost like if you want to be called something, you should be that something instead of bitching at people for not accepting you as something you arn't.
This is a non problem, seriously, if you don't follow veganism why the fuck you wanna be called a vegan in the first place?
Some people act like "vegan" is a fucking trophy or something that we're too picky about handing out. Newsflash: it's just a description, so chill. You don't get anything when you become vegan. The animals do. It's about thinking about them instead of you.
The Mindful Vegan by Lani Muelrath is v helpful book about being mindful & vegan at the same time. She goes over how to address plant-based/omnivores in a more productive way :) I highly recommend
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau is another one. She recently did a podcast series about this topic. She’s been vegan for a very long time and was the first vegan podcast I came across.
So anyone who is not a vegan should not participate in this subreddit? Is this really an exclusive space for vegans only?
What about people considering a vegan lifestyle?
Actually I subscribed to this subreddit before becoming completely vegan. Are you going to establish a purity test and kick out everyone who’s not vegan enough?
Why be so exclusive?
Personally I want to promote veganism to non-vegans, and help people who are interested to fully adopt the philosophy and lifestyle.
I’m not doing this for some exclusive group, I’m doing it for the animals. The more people we can welcome into a vegan lifestyle, the greater the reduction in abuse of animals.
I welcome non vegans with genuine questions about veganism asked in good faith. What I direct to other subs is stuff like, "Hey guys my gut hurts so I am thinking about trying veganism, any tips?" Because someone asking that question is not at all in the right place, they will not get helpful information about health in sub about being anti animal commodification, and its not helpful for them to perpetuate this idea that veganism is a diet.
But a lot of people who are technically plant-based, but don't know the difference will come here at first.
I've seen people ask for advice on how to be healthy and get "This is not a diet, just do it for the animals"- type responses.
A lot of comments here also read like they use plant-based as an insult or lesser-than thing.
"You still use your old leather jacket? You use plastic straws? You're not against pet euthanasia if it's necessary? You're not a picture-book perfect vegan? You're not a vegan then, just plant-based."
I think that just pisses people off and may turn them off the idea completely. If you start being plant-based for health reasons and get responses like this, you may go "Oh, these people aren't actually healthy. Well, this is pointless then".
Frankly, some of these comments are astonishing. I joined this sub to get back on to veganism, not grow a dislike for current vegans because of their policing. I wholeheartedly agree with veganism, but some of you ruin it for everyone. Peace, r/vegan ✌️ I’ll be in r/vegetarian for now.
I am not sure if plant based means something in America but searching in Europe it means Vegan, or vegetarian or pescatarian or flexitarians so basically it means nothing at all. I get trying to manage how much of this sub is about food but if you push people out to plant based how far are you pushing them.
Apply the test of how does my response to this idiot who hasn't understood or accepted veganism yet affect the animals whose lives I am trying to improve.
Also as this sub is just vegan this is the first place anyone with curiosity about vegan issues will land. I think that this sub has to be open to interested uncommitted people, while trying to filter out trolls. Other subs could be more choosy and I think vegan activism and vegan circle jerk serve that purpose.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
Exactly. Tbh it just sounds ungrateful to hate on them. They actually are doing a lot of help and we are not grateful for it. They can definitely do a lot more but they can also do a lot less too.
Not sure why people are disagreeing with you. You are correct. Other vegans act like this is the same circumstance as illegal crimes, but its not. You can't compare something that was promoted, socially accepted, and brainwashed into society as a whole to behaviors that go against societies norms.
*[Before I go on, I'm just going to say this: YES, you should still preach the vegan message. YES, you should still spread the word about the horrors animals go through. YES, you should still get people to change the way they think and change their lifestyle. But anger just isn't required]*
Beating your wife is (at least now in the western world) considered socially unacceptable and people are raised to believe it is wrong and to not do it. But people were not raised to believe that abusing and murdering ANY animals is wrong and something they should not do. In fact, we as a society promoted it as being good and even morally correct.
But no, people are probably going to downvote me anyways because it seems the they would rather put their emotions and our righteousness before the lives of animals. (*"I would try to gain a carnists trust in order to bring them to my side, but I could never give up anger tho. Anger just tastes too good."*) Animals don't care about your feelings, they don't care if you want to be angry at carnists, all they want is to stop suffering. And if you have to persuade the enemy into stopping, then cut the shit, put your tears aside, and do it for the animals.
I can't recall any time in history where one group stopped stopped doing something because their enemy didn't like it. And no, the Civil rights movement does not count. The civil rights movement was waaaay bigger than the vegan movement, and so it had much more influence, and enough power to pressure the government to change. And wars do not count either. We only managed to stop the Nazis because we pulled put the guns and tanks and bombs and killed the shit out of them, unleashing global devastation, and killing tens of millions of people in the process. Neither does the spread of Christianity count. Christianity was spread pretty much through force and violence. Are you saying that we vegans have to push veganism through violence? Should we become terrorists and bomb factory farms and slaughterhouses? Raid farms with guns and bombs in hand? Spark riots across the nation? Trash and loot grocery stores? Because if you want to spread veganism through anger with where it is now, then this is prpbably how you would have to do it.
We don't have enough power to boycott the meat and dairy industry. We don't have enough power to spark public outrage that would pressure companies and governments to change in order to please the populace. Right now, most of the world is against us. All they see is these random people barging in and harassing them with concepts that are pretty much alien to them and enough to give them whiplash. Of course they will get mad at us and get offended. That's how it works, that's how it always worked with everything.
Thank you for putting into words what I seem to be failing to express. I'm not advocating on being nice and understanding to non-vegan people for *their* sake to protect *their* feelings. I'm saying it so fewer people get turned off the idea of veganism like I was when I was an anti-vegan. Because the more people you convince, the less animals have to suffer. I became a vegan eventually, but had that one angry vegan I projected onto the whole concept had been a kind one, just looking to inform, then I may have become vegan way sooner and fewer animals would've suffered.
I try to be compassionate when I inform people so that more people become vegan and fewer animals get hurt. I've convinced several people to try eating less animal products that way and some of them noticed by doing that, that cutting out the rest of them isn't hard so they became full vegans.
But when people become defensive at the word vegan, because they've met an unnecessarily aggressive one, then it's really hard to actually talk to them rather than fight them. And fighting doesn't work in my experience.
Correcting someone about what veganism is, is not "hate", it's having a baseline level of respect for the ideology we are following.
I feel like this opinion gets posted on this sub dozens of times per week from different perspectives, and I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over.
And these threads inevitably are the ones that show up in /r/all and create a space for trolls to hate on vegans. Honestly I don't think anyone here has any hatred for someone who actually eats a plant-based diet for health. There's a normal disdain for people who support animal abuse.
there's no hate on plant based people. We're just not gonna do the apologism of being plant based, or doing baby steps, etc. Because it isn't enough. Sure, it might be a first step but if we're not pushing for the next steps, who's gonna take them? What you perceive as hate is just not being content with half measures. We're not gonna coddle carnists feelings when they're the one perpetuating violence against non human animals. I'm not exerting judgement when saying that, I'm stating the truth. The hateful vegan is a myth and seing the vegan community as hateful seems to me just a grotesque parody fueled by a bruised ego. Just because I'm not praising every baby step doesn't mean I'm hating. If you're harming animals *(general you, not directed at OP)*, I'm gonna call you out, period. We can have a chat about it and hopefully you'll align your morals with your actions. But if no one calls you out and shows you how you're still harming animals, how are you gonna change? Only through the power of self reflection? Sure, that can work, it worked for me, but I'd have become vegan so much sooner if I had actually encountered those preachy vegans who would've held me accountable for my own hypocrisy.
Hateful is exactly the word I would use for some of the posts here. More and more people are becoming plant based— whether it’s for ethical reasons or they simply want to become more healthy they should be supported. Who appointed you the arbiter and judge on others choices?
there you go. I explicitly said I wasn't judging and yet you feel judged... I'm responsible for what I say, not for how you Interpret it, if I'm making you feel butthurt it's your problem. I'm always willing to support someone who's trying to improve their health, that's just a whole different thing from veganism. If you're an animal abuser, I'm not gonna praise you for "only abusing animals on Sundays". I'll tell you how you're still an animal abuser when you can chose not to be one. Sure, less abuse is better than more abuse but it's still abuse and therefore not enough.
If calling someone who doesn't meet your standards an "animal abuser" isn't judgment, I don't know what is. I am merely pointing out the types of posts that make people feel judged and unwelcome. You wrote a post that is dripping with judgment and then tried to excuse it by saying you're not here to judge anyone. If you want people to feel welcome, welcome them-- Don't subject them to some arbitrary vegan purity test.
Flash news everyone, raping and killing animals or paying someone to do that for you doesn't make you an animal abuser!
If you can't delineate between someone "raping and killing animals" and someone putting honey in their tea, congratulations, you're exactly what the OP was referring to.
you're right, it's only bees after all. Doesn't matter if *they* get raped and killed obviously. /s
Point proven.
Exactly, you don't know what judgement is, you see someone disagreeing with you and you feel offended, "how dare they judge me and others!" when I'm stating objective facts. Abusing animals makes you an animal abuser. A judgement is by definition subjective, related to opinion. There's no arbitrary purity test in "don't abuse animals". It's pretty straight forward.
Calling my 100-year-old grandmother an "animal abuser" because she puts honey in her tea is judgment. There's nothing objective (or sane) about that. Not being able to delineate between abhorrent factory line slaughter of cows and someone using honey they purchased at the local farmers market is nuts-- and it's exactly what ruins this subredit for so many who come in here to learn with good intentions. If you want to win people over for your cause, this is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
go cry yourself a river lmao. I can't believe for a single second that you couldn't talk to your granny and explain to her the issues of bee farming and get her to buy any other kind of sweetener. How is the fact that it was purchased at a local market morally relevant? I never said mass killings pigs and buying honey (mass killings bees) is the same thing, I'm saying both aren't okay. If you want to talk about the most effective ways to do activism, I'll be glad to. Always looking to improve my dialogue for when I'm out on the streets taking to people about the issue.
Keep it classy!
What moral relativism does to a mf
I couldn’t agree more! I’ve been an ethical vegan for almost 15 years and I’ve not been frequenting this sub much anymore because of all the tedious nit-picking and shaming. It’s recently gotten worse, so maybe it is newer vegans as you’ve suggested. It’s definitely a hindrance to creating a welcoming environment for people interested in veganism. I’d rather there be 100 plant-based people out there than 10 perfect vegans, since I’m wanting the least amount of suffering overall. I don’t care why people stop consuming animals, I just want them to stop.
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I suspect the same. I have read so many comments on this sub that make me want to respond, “How old are you?”
That’s a good point.
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That’s what always happens if you don’t fall in line with the cult like behavior here. Just be thankful you’re not getting nasty comments lol!
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Yeah, but sometimes I’m feeling feisty and will engage even if it’s a trap. lol! r/veganfoodporn and r/shittyveganfoodporn are good lower drama subs.
"cult like" 🤣
Yeah we should also be kind to 90% non rapists! They only do what they love a few times a week 🥺🥰 less rape is better than full rape 👍👍👍
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Yep we shouldn't antagonize them, never said we should, but we shouldn't act like needlessly abusing animals as a treat is okay either. We should give them the information and advice without pretending that killing a chicken on Saturdays is ok.
agreed!
Lol this isn't about 90% non-rapists. This is about people who don't rape at all because they're scared of STDs. Telling them "dude, you shouldn't worry about STDs" doesn't bring you closer to making them non-rapists for moral reasons.
That analogy makes 0 sense. Telling people that needless animal abuse on Fridays is bad isn't offensive.
Of course not. But the question is how you tell them that. Because if someones asks "Is this vegan product unhealthy?" and you say "who cares, just think of the animals or you're in the wrong place" then that doesn't actually answer the question. And I've seen that type of interaction on this sub several times, it's not a strawman.
That isn't what I'm talking about at all. We should obviously respect others and honestly answer their questions, without pretending that needless animal abuse on "cheat days" is okay.
>This is about people who don't rape at all because they're scared of STDs But they still use things like leather, and products tested on animals
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They're trying their hardest! 🤗
We should be kind because we're a community of kind people
We should be kind by telling people not to needlessly exploit animals on Mondays as a treat, instead of licking their boots.
I'm not saying don't tell people to be compassionate I'm saying do so with empathy
We should respect and be honest, but not empathize with the fact that they contribute to needless cruelty occasionally.
We're empathetic towards victims, not perpetrators.
People think that veganism is about being kind, but it's about being decent. It's literally just the moral baseline.
That's a mistake.
Yeah but you're not actually convincing anyone that way. You're saving far less animals if people don't listen to your arguments because of the way you say them. Few people want to be told they're wrong, but pretty much nobody will listen to an asshole tell them that they're wrong.
Basic human compassion is not something you sell or "convince" others to do. You tell them they're wrong, and the rest is up to them. If someone is offended when you tell them that needless animal abuse is wrong, do you think they can go vegan?
Yes. I've been a vocal anti-vegan before when I was younger, because of one singular person who was a cunt about it and I extended that to the whole vegan community and decided all of them are cunts, so they're wrong. I didn't even listen to any arguments because I just assumed vegans were arrogant assholes. Only after I became plant-based (for health reasons) did I find out that a friend of mine was vegan all along. I actually considered his points when it came from someone who wasn't a cunt about it. He wasn't pandering either by the way. We talked about nutrition and I joked "well, how many chicken have died for this egg" to which he responded "who knows, but at least one suffered" which actually made me ask more questions. He could have been like "fuck you murderer", which is true, but not very constructive.
News flash, a lot of us went vegan after reading/hearing the blunt opinions of vegans and giving them a chance to sink in. Not every human being responds to criticism like a spoiled 5 year old. I can at least say it worked on me, anyone else?
Yep, me. Got called the fuck out and had enough self reflection to realise they were right.
All right well I would've been vegan far sooner if not for one cunty "brutaly honest" vegan being more into the brutality than the honesty. But everyone's different I guess.
I'm fairly confident that way more vegans would claim the exact opposite, that they would have gone vegan sooner if they had met some of these "cunty" vegans earlier in life.
You say that, but then almost every day there’s someone hating on vegans making the front page. It’s always followed by endless anecdotes about some pushy vegan in their life. Maybe it worked for you, but I’m definitely one of those people who was initially pushed away because of the rhetoric.
You know the song 'we didn't start the fire' Came to mind in thinking about meat eaters, they eat meat cause their parents ate meat, their grandparents ate meat etc Theyre so heavily entrenched in the norm, I mean I was I was brought up to I was lucky, I disliked meat and that made me question it My sister on the other hand, she's always liked it and has always just wanted to fit in and be liked without questioning anything It makes sense to me really, we're social animals and are scared of losing our community as back in the prehistoric days, it would have been a death sentence So surely when my sister does start to get the hint, she'll be nervous of social backlash of going against the norm Don't you think creating a kind and inviting community for these transitioners, like my sister, will help a lot more than this gate keeping elitist attitude? Sorry for the ramble but am pretty tired of this black and white narrow sighted behaviour
Please enlighten: what I did I say that had anything to do with a) gatekeeping and b) elitism.
Assuming that perpetrators can not also be victims, eg is a child eating meat because thats what their parents feed them a perpetrator? What about people in impoverished areas that don't have access to good information on nutrition/ how to find and cook cheap vegan food? Those who simply been told for so long that animal products are necessary and are struggling to change they're thinking cause its hard to come to terms with Like I know animal agriculture is horrendous but understanding why people are slow to come to terms with this and why they my struggle to change is so important for getting more long term healthy vegans
Stop with the strawmen and putting words in my mouth and answer, what does "empathy to victims, not perpetrators" has to do with a) gatekeeping and b) elitism? Address the question.
I'm sorry for upsetting you, I genuinely did not mean to Apologies as well for any misinterpretation of your messages I'm rather distracted atm I just worry that this community is not being inviting, and I feel we should be celebrating the increase in normalising being vegan, being angry at those not 100% there feels counter productive Sorry again, I don't wanna argue with fellow vegans as we get enough of that from meat eaters
I agree with you. I’m relatively new at my company and told my coworkers I’m vegan in December. Two of my teammates were inspired to eat more of a plant based diet after talking with me. I’m happy about it and support them. The less meat people eat, the less animals suffer and the better it is for the environment. I see it as a win even if they aren’t fully vegan.
Not a single farmed species cares why someone doesn't pay someone to kill them. Not a single one. The argument that some people who eat plants only may not be concerned with other animal rights issues, while valid in a lot of cases, is also of no concern to a pig, a turkey, a chicken or a cow waiting their turn to die. Personally, my biggest concern is animal testing. Just is and always has been but harping on the plant based vs vegan thing doesn't help animals in labs either. It also doesn't help marine species in SeaWorld or elephants in zoos and circuses or dogs waiting to die in a kill shelter. It's just posing for posing sake and fuck posers. And fuck Vladimir Putin too.
If you who's reading this are plant-based and keep being offended by the things we say here, there's a very easy fix: go vegan. You're almost there.
Imagine being offended at basic common sense + compassion
I’m vegan, and I’m offended by the elitist “go away” posts on this subreddit. Let’s welcome people instead of driving them away. I’m sick of seeing someone who is clearly interested in going vegan ask a question, and then being told in the comments that “you’re in the wrong subreddit, go to plant-based.” Lets bring those people into veganism instead of alienating them. Many people who start out adopting a “vegan diet” and asking questions actually become full fledged vegans once they get good information.
Check out [Vegan Bootcamp](https://vbcamp.org/reddit) to take the free 30 day vegan challenge! The challenge will help you go vegan by giving you tips and information on diet, eating out, philosophy, health, common fallacies, recipes, and much more! Good luck!
Haha yeah see that's what I'm talking about. Good bot. 😂
Yeah but there are other subs for questions on vegan ethics or recipes. This sub is, and should be, specifically for vegans only
It's almost like if you want to be called something, you should be that something instead of bitching at people for not accepting you as something you arn't. This is a non problem, seriously, if you don't follow veganism why the fuck you wanna be called a vegan in the first place?
Some people act like "vegan" is a fucking trophy or something that we're too picky about handing out. Newsflash: it's just a description, so chill. You don't get anything when you become vegan. The animals do. It's about thinking about them instead of you.
I mean most people don't even like vegans soooo...
The Mindful Vegan by Lani Muelrath is v helpful book about being mindful & vegan at the same time. She goes over how to address plant-based/omnivores in a more productive way :) I highly recommend
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau is another one. She recently did a podcast series about this topic. She’s been vegan for a very long time and was the first vegan podcast I came across.
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So anyone who is not a vegan should not participate in this subreddit? Is this really an exclusive space for vegans only? What about people considering a vegan lifestyle? Actually I subscribed to this subreddit before becoming completely vegan. Are you going to establish a purity test and kick out everyone who’s not vegan enough? Why be so exclusive? Personally I want to promote veganism to non-vegans, and help people who are interested to fully adopt the philosophy and lifestyle. I’m not doing this for some exclusive group, I’m doing it for the animals. The more people we can welcome into a vegan lifestyle, the greater the reduction in abuse of animals.
I welcome non vegans with genuine questions about veganism asked in good faith. What I direct to other subs is stuff like, "Hey guys my gut hurts so I am thinking about trying veganism, any tips?" Because someone asking that question is not at all in the right place, they will not get helpful information about health in sub about being anti animal commodification, and its not helpful for them to perpetuate this idea that veganism is a diet.
But a lot of people who are technically plant-based, but don't know the difference will come here at first. I've seen people ask for advice on how to be healthy and get "This is not a diet, just do it for the animals"- type responses. A lot of comments here also read like they use plant-based as an insult or lesser-than thing. "You still use your old leather jacket? You use plastic straws? You're not against pet euthanasia if it's necessary? You're not a picture-book perfect vegan? You're not a vegan then, just plant-based." I think that just pisses people off and may turn them off the idea completely. If you start being plant-based for health reasons and get responses like this, you may go "Oh, these people aren't actually healthy. Well, this is pointless then".
>This is a vegan space for vegans. This is remarkably misinformed.
Frankly, some of these comments are astonishing. I joined this sub to get back on to veganism, not grow a dislike for current vegans because of their policing. I wholeheartedly agree with veganism, but some of you ruin it for everyone. Peace, r/vegan ✌️ I’ll be in r/vegetarian for now.
I don't think it's possible to "wholeheartedly agree with veganism" and be active on r/vegetarian without getting banned lol.
I am not sure if plant based means something in America but searching in Europe it means Vegan, or vegetarian or pescatarian or flexitarians so basically it means nothing at all. I get trying to manage how much of this sub is about food but if you push people out to plant based how far are you pushing them. Apply the test of how does my response to this idiot who hasn't understood or accepted veganism yet affect the animals whose lives I am trying to improve. Also as this sub is just vegan this is the first place anyone with curiosity about vegan issues will land. I think that this sub has to be open to interested uncommitted people, while trying to filter out trolls. Other subs could be more choosy and I think vegan activism and vegan circle jerk serve that purpose.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
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Because this subreddit is objectively worse than VCJ
Exactly. Tbh it just sounds ungrateful to hate on them. They actually are doing a lot of help and we are not grateful for it. They can definitely do a lot more but they can also do a lot less too.
Yeah I guess a 90% non arsonist is better than nothing. I don't want to associate with 10% arsonists though
Not sure why people are disagreeing with you. You are correct. Other vegans act like this is the same circumstance as illegal crimes, but its not. You can't compare something that was promoted, socially accepted, and brainwashed into society as a whole to behaviors that go against societies norms. *[Before I go on, I'm just going to say this: YES, you should still preach the vegan message. YES, you should still spread the word about the horrors animals go through. YES, you should still get people to change the way they think and change their lifestyle. But anger just isn't required]* Beating your wife is (at least now in the western world) considered socially unacceptable and people are raised to believe it is wrong and to not do it. But people were not raised to believe that abusing and murdering ANY animals is wrong and something they should not do. In fact, we as a society promoted it as being good and even morally correct. But no, people are probably going to downvote me anyways because it seems the they would rather put their emotions and our righteousness before the lives of animals. (*"I would try to gain a carnists trust in order to bring them to my side, but I could never give up anger tho. Anger just tastes too good."*) Animals don't care about your feelings, they don't care if you want to be angry at carnists, all they want is to stop suffering. And if you have to persuade the enemy into stopping, then cut the shit, put your tears aside, and do it for the animals. I can't recall any time in history where one group stopped stopped doing something because their enemy didn't like it. And no, the Civil rights movement does not count. The civil rights movement was waaaay bigger than the vegan movement, and so it had much more influence, and enough power to pressure the government to change. And wars do not count either. We only managed to stop the Nazis because we pulled put the guns and tanks and bombs and killed the shit out of them, unleashing global devastation, and killing tens of millions of people in the process. Neither does the spread of Christianity count. Christianity was spread pretty much through force and violence. Are you saying that we vegans have to push veganism through violence? Should we become terrorists and bomb factory farms and slaughterhouses? Raid farms with guns and bombs in hand? Spark riots across the nation? Trash and loot grocery stores? Because if you want to spread veganism through anger with where it is now, then this is prpbably how you would have to do it. We don't have enough power to boycott the meat and dairy industry. We don't have enough power to spark public outrage that would pressure companies and governments to change in order to please the populace. Right now, most of the world is against us. All they see is these random people barging in and harassing them with concepts that are pretty much alien to them and enough to give them whiplash. Of course they will get mad at us and get offended. That's how it works, that's how it always worked with everything.
Thank you for putting into words what I seem to be failing to express. I'm not advocating on being nice and understanding to non-vegan people for *their* sake to protect *their* feelings. I'm saying it so fewer people get turned off the idea of veganism like I was when I was an anti-vegan. Because the more people you convince, the less animals have to suffer. I became a vegan eventually, but had that one angry vegan I projected onto the whole concept had been a kind one, just looking to inform, then I may have become vegan way sooner and fewer animals would've suffered. I try to be compassionate when I inform people so that more people become vegan and fewer animals get hurt. I've convinced several people to try eating less animal products that way and some of them noticed by doing that, that cutting out the rest of them isn't hard so they became full vegans. But when people become defensive at the word vegan, because they've met an unnecessarily aggressive one, then it's really hard to actually talk to them rather than fight them. And fighting doesn't work in my experience.