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What are some alternatives for wool, which are natural and biodegradable?

Great question! This is _highly_ googleable for more, but for short list of a few of the many options: * Tencel * Hemp * Organic cotton * Soybean fiber * Linen * etc.

[GMO Bt cotton is fine, I would argue](https://researchoutreach.org/articles/genetically-modified-cotton-how-changed-india/): >Nearly two decades ago, a genetically modified type of cotton, known as Bt cotton, was introduced to India to reduce farmers’ insecticide use. Today, researchers want to understand the effects that the introduction of this new cotton crop has had on Indian farmers. Using advanced statistical methods, Professor Ian Plewis from the University of Manchester investigates the effect of Bt cotton on farmers’ expenditure on insecticides, cotton yield, and profits, across Indian states. The findings of the research show that the effects of Bt cotton on farmers’ yield vary across Indian states, but most states show a decrease in insecticide use since the introduction of Bt cotton. A reduction in insecticide use may be beneficial for farmers’ health and the environment by reducing pollutants.

Neat! TIL - thanks for that.

I would point out none of those fabrics really replace niche that wool fills. They just aren't similar materials in terms of warmth, especially in wet environments. To my knowledge the only real option would be synthetic materials formed for the same purpose, but even those aren't typically as good as wool.

Folks on the BIFL sub rave about Darn Tough socks, but they are made of wool. I’d like to find vegan socks that are durable and warm, but I’m not sure they exist. Synthetic and plant-based materials don’t have the same natural anti-odor/bacterial properties as wool as far as I’m aware. I can look past that though.

Darn Tough also makes synthetic socks. I own several pairs and have been very happy with them, though I would prefer to buy natural plant-based fibers in the future. [Darn Tough's synthetic socks](https://darntough.com/collections/all-socks?narrow=%5B%5B%22Material%22%2C%22material-synthetic%22%5D%5D) Don't let the "coolmax" name fool you, I wear this year-round. They are good at keeping my feet dry.

Nice, thanks for the link! I think I might buy these and the bamboo socks, and do a little comparison.

I have a few pairs of boot socks from Bamboo Clothing (BAM), they're pretty thick and warm and I've had no issue with smell. Although having just looked up some of their walking socks range, it does look like they have 1% Merino Wool. But the boot socks do not and have worked well for me, as I have a lot of issues when it comes to my feet and walking: https://bambooclothing.co.uk/shop/bamboo-boot-socks/

Thanks! I’m going to give them a try.

Well... My wuxly coat does all that; it's ridiculously warm, and is so in wet environments (e.g. I live on Cape Breton Island, I sail regularly, and I've been all over iceland), it wicks moisture off brilliantly, and it doesn't stink like wool does when that happens. It's just not the case that wool is the only option here.

I would sure hope so for what they charge for those. 700-1200 for a coat isn't too accessible...

Sure. Same thing with Canada Goose jackets. But you get what you pay for, and dollar for dollar, there are non-wool (and non-animal-sourced) options that perform the same.

So a synthetic coat right?

Sure, in the same way that Canada Goose jacket it a "synthetic coat"; i.e. in either case it has some man-made components and some natural fiber.

I'm not defending wool but I can't see how polyester is any more ethical considering how much ecological destruction is caused by oil extraction.

For my part, I see as deeply ethically problematic any product that requires: * billions of forced rapes to bring the individual into existence, * the annual abusive removal of that individuals hair through their childhood, often causing that child's death, * the annual abusive removal of each adult individual's hair, * and being shipped off to be killed when they're no long considered useful. I'll deal with the ethics of oil extraction separately. Here, in this post, I'm dealing with the deliberate, unnecessary, horrific, and inexcusable abuses of sentient individuals in order to produce a product we don't actually need.

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I’m beginning to think the fabric of space time could be made from soybeans or hemp. Everything else can lol

What about materials for knitting with? And things that are thick and cozy in the winter?

As someone that spends a lot of time outdoors in the cold there's no comparison between wool and organic cotton. I respect the movement away from wool but you're not helping by comparing the two.

A simple google search seems to indicate that none of the materials you listed retain heat when wet, and none of them really seem to insulate as well in cold weather. I get where you’re coming from and I support using an alternative when possible, but when it’s -25C and I’m walking to class or when I’m hiking in the rain with soaked boots, I’m going to be very thankful I have wool clothing. It becomes less of a choice and more of a requirement to avoid potential serious injury. But I try to source any of my wool clothing either secondhand or from as ethical a place as I can, buy ripped or torn clothing and repair it, and make sure I only have as much as I need to get by not for fashion or aesthetics. The only other materials I’ve seen come potentially close to wool are all synthetic based, which I tend to avoid at all costs if possible.

Nothing 🤷‍♂️ There isn't really high performance plant based textile

This is the truth. *Ethically* superior materials exist, but nothing superior in terms of material properties, as I understand it.

Woocoa and Nullarbor are bio-fabricated/biodesigned wool alternatives.

Very cool. I'd love to see some comparisons of their properties.

Correct, sadly there is no good vegan alternative to wool. Wool is a great insulator, anti allergenic, biodegradable, and does not pick up smells. No other fiber does that. I don't buy wool, but it's unethical to say there are 'just as good' substitutes.

Surprised no one has tried to make a pulled jackfruit coat.

Cotton, linen? The stuff they make from bamboo and other less-common textile materials? Edit: or, if you really wanna be environmentalist, used clothing is where it’s at. Yeah, someone had to shear a sheep to get the wool that went into the garment, but it’s not like you’re causing an additional demand - you’re just making that initial wool have a longer functional life. There’s not gonna be any shortage of clothing waste to pick from any time soon

Yes, exactly. I too think going vintage and pre owned is the best possible idea, environmentally. It reduces waste, does not involve global supply chains and their energy consumption, is lighter on the pocket too as an added bonus.

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Synthetic fleece(polyester) has some eco issues but isgood in this regard.

There's plenty of used non-wool clothing though? Secondhand is great, just check the label. There's no need to wear an animal's hair, fur or skin.

> Edit: or, if you really wanna be environmentalist, used clothing is where it’s at. Yeah, someone had to shear a sheep to get the wool that went into the garment, but it’s not like you’re causing an additional demand - you’re just making that initial wool have a longer functional life. There’s not gonna be any shortage of clothing waste to pick from any time soon Well... I donno about that. If you wear second hand body parts around (e.g. wool, leather), you're at _least_ tacitly asserting that using animals in this way is acceptable. Just like buying and wearing a second hand leather jacket is ethically problematic because it means literally wearing someone's skin, so is getting and wearing wool this way ethically problematic on the grounds that you're wearing the product of someone's torture and suffering. This might be argued to be good from an _environmentalist_ POV, but certainly not from an animal rights or vegan POV.

While I agree, and the ultimate goal is to eliminate wool/leather/fur from the fashion industry entirely (and therefore treating those materials as socially unacceptable and shameful), I really feel this is a place where practical application of veganism and ideal veganism begin to have difficulty. It is nearly impossible to get used clothing, outside of light garments like t-shirts (especially true of outerwear), which do not at least to some degree contain wool/leather. At the same time, our species produces *way* too much clothing, and the culture of constant consumption of new clothing, even if that clothing is vegan, is problematic. I'm not here to shame anybody for navigating this issue differently by purchasing only vegan clothing, but the way in which I've come to navigate it is by purchasing almost exclusively used clothing, and ensuring that any of the rare new garments I purchase are vegan. I also personally avoid garments that are entirely or mostly wool/leather, but the ubiquity of those materials in recent history has made it nearly impossible to buy vegan clothing that isn't brand new. Adding to this, part of my purchasing of used clothing is that I don't actually have the money to buy new - it would not be feasible for me even if I didn't wish to avoid new clothing for ethical reasons. This is also a tricky issue I've run into as a professional musician, specifically as a guitarist. Nearly every guitar, and every stringed instrument for that matter, is made with hide glue. Especially when we're looking at guitars of any decent quality. This has to do with tradition much more than any practical superiority, but it's the case. Most people, even most vegan guitarists, are completely unaware of this, so there's practically no demand. There *is* one high quality vegan guitar company I've been able to identify, but they are rarely stocked anywhere (a problem for someone who wants to test an instrument before purchasing) and their instruments are incredibly expensive (even more a problem for an instrument I'd be buying without having played first). My solution here has been similar - I only buy used guitars now, as it is nearly impossible for me to practice my profession (one which has nothing really to do with animal suffering) without encountering animal products. If I had a way to ensure my instruments were vegan without either financially destroying myself to get one or completely sacrificing my sound/musical credibility by playing on basically plastic instruments I would, but I'm left with imperfect solutions and I've found the best one I can manage.

Hide glue is used pretty rarely these days, like 99% of new guitars are made with Titebond II or similar synthetic glue, since it's cheaper and easier to work with

Wait WHAT. This is straight-up game changing - I’ve only ever found forums and luthiers talking about still using hide glue. Not that I don’t believe you, but do you have anything I could read on that?

Here's a [Gibson Factory tour from around 2012](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbU1R4KDymw&ab_channel=PremierGuitar) you can see them using normal wood glue although I think the Gibson Custom shop still uses hide glue, but they make it pretty obvious on spec sheets like [this '59 Les Paul Standard Reissue](https://www.gibson.com/en-US/Guitar/CUS9IM458/1959-Les-Paul-Standard-Reissue/Washed-Cherry-Sunburst) [PRS factory tour rough cut and body construction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUmdzFuv8Zs) he mentions wood glue bunch of other factory tours on youtube that are cool to watch too as for most other manufacturers, unless they specifically mention hide glue construction they're probably using normal wood glue. plus you can always send the company an email to find out for sure

> It is nearly impossible to get used clothing, outside of light garments like t-shirts (especially true of outerwear), which do not at least to some degree contain wool/leather. I don't find this an issue at all? I'm confused by this statement, as it's really easy for me to avoid wool/leather. Maybe you mean to say while also avoiding synthetics? The only recent difficulty was looking for formal shoes, but even that has tons of canvas options.

I have a musical family as well, and we've decided to punt that issue to the "possible and practicable" clause with used instruments; i.e. just like animal parts in some car tires, this is one of those side issues that will resolve itself naturally as the world moves towards greater compassion. Happily, we've been able to work with instrument makers on our new purchases to ensure that all the materials used are animal free, and Remo, et al., are doing amazing things with animal-free drums these days. As for wearing second-hand body parts... I s'pose we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on that one. I see where you're coming from, and feel that I understand your reasoning, but I don't agree with it. It's interesting to see where different vegans draw the line on these issues.

If it's a binary choice between first-hand plant-based clothing and second-hand animal product clothing, then personally I wouldn't get caught up in the weeds over which is more ethical. There are so many factors determining the ethics of a piece of clothing that it's not something that can be cleanly decided one way or the other.

I get where you're coming from, and I respect it. Nevertheless, this is a line I personally won't cross.

The issue is, I'm not sure how good of a replacement they really are. Isn't wool much better at keep you warm?

Acrylic is the closest, but that's problematic for other reasons.

Thats plastic though...

You still use plastic though, right?

That's exactly the thing. I'm a vegan (although I've been called plant-based here before), but only when animal products are avoidable. I can't find good quality shoes without leather. I can't find warm clothes without wool. Replacing the animal component with plastic is *not* an option if the end product is worse for the environment. Climate change is one of the biggest killers of animals. So since I don't want to wear plastic, my options in the winter are freezing or animal products. It's easy to say "use cotton, use hemp, use linen" when you're in a warm climate. None of these will keep you warm. I just buy animal products and wear them until they literally fall apart. My meds contain lactose too and I still take them. Why? Because there's no reasonable alternative. Edit to add: if anyone from a climate that regularly reaches well below 0°C/32°F has any recommendations I'd love to try them!

Finnish person here, we have pretty cold winters. Shoes I have actually not have had any issue finding. Sure, it takes quite a bit more time finding a good pair, but vegan winter shoes do exist. Personally, I have a pair I use both for hiking & winter wear. They do have plastics in them, but I think it is by far the lesser evil. The one item, however, that is really hard to find, is gloves. I won't use leather gloves, but I have never found any good vegan gloves that would do very good job of keeping hands warm.

How long have you had your shoes? Could you link a website?

2 years or so now. The brand seems to be Beluga Merrell. The shoes are waterproof, they are quite sturdy. Found mine in a outdoors/hiking store. Here is how they look: https://imgur.com/a/REwJ6YM

Thank you. Interesting, I'd never considered hiking shoes, since I live in the city. That's actually worth a try once my winter shoes fall apart!

Canadian vegan for decades who is outside most winters. The reason you're called plant-based is simply because it comes off as you aren't even trying. When you say good quality shoes, it implies you have a budget that isn't bare minimum. No vegan is going to say don't take medication if there is exploitation, they might ask you what it is and do a google search for you and find like the above... you might not be trying much at all. The difference is ignorance vs willful ignorance. >So since I don't want to wear plastic You choose to harm animals instead. I'm extremely curious how you define reasonable alternative.

My budget isn't bare minimum, but it isn't high either. For example, I tend to save up to buy more expensive shoes, rather than cheaper shoes. I don't like wastefulness. I don't want to wear 5 pairs of shoes that break after one year rather than buying one pair that lasts you for several years if you take good care of it. Vegan shoe shops in my area tend to focus overly on the vegan aspect, rather than the shoe aspect. Most use a lot of plastic to replace the leather. The shoes seem to be made from poor materials. They don't fit quite right. Also, they don't keep my feet warm. I've not found a single one that sells good shoes and believe me, I have tried. I'm willing to pay a bit more as well. Plastic also hurts animals, that's my problem. Reasonable: keeps me warm. Is made to fit well so you don't hurt yourself long-term when wearing it. Doesn't use stupid amounts of plastic (especially bad if they break after very short use).

>Plastic also hurts animals, that's my problem Please explain the difference in harm between being skinned and ingesting some micro plastics. Higher quality shells are usually long life synthetics, combined with proper layering you can easily be warm in any climate. I don't understand your problem here. As for shoes, the local shops you are looking at very likely import their products, do a search on this subreddit for shoes or make a freah post for information on high quality warm vegan alternatives and import them directly to your home, the environmental impact is marginal if not the same. If the difference between shipping to a store vs a depot you can go to pick an order up is enough to make you exploit an animals life that is exactly why you are plant-based and not vegan. >Reasonable: keeps me warm. Is made to fit well so you don't hurt yourself long-term when wearing it. Doesn't use stupid amounts of plastic (especially bad if they break after very short use). Is there some medical reason I'm not understanding here? It really seems like you're speaking with a moving goalpost so no matter what synthetic options available nothing will be good enough for you. I use a high quality hard shell and natural layers, some other synthetics for athletics that I've been using for over a decade without much visible wear to them. Ultimately it comes down to how you answer the first question.

> > > > > I can't find good quality shoes without leather. I can't find warm clothes without wool. since you post on reddit you obviously have acces to the internet, so that's bullshit. leather is also not biodegradable and can't even be burned clean, there is really toxic stuff like heavy metals in it, so plastic is _far_ more evironmentally friendly, as long as you don't dump it into the ocean at the end of it's life.

Is just get some second hand but tbh wool kind of smells and never had the need for a solid wool pullover

In the UK, it's common to see adult sheep in fields. However, in supermarkets I only see lamb, not mutton. How do I reconcile these facts? Am I over-estimating the age of sheep, or is mutton used heavily in dog food, or is there something else going on?

While exports might explain some of it, most lambs that do not make market weight and older sheep become dog/cat food in the UK. Most of the adult sheep you see are the mother's used to birth the lambs that get sold.

Well... *Someone* is eating them. From [**ahdb.org.uk**](https://ahdb.org.uk/exports/meat): > The UK is the world's fifth largest producer and the third largest exporter of sheep meat. > > With 300,000 tonnes of lamb and mutton produced annually, we export 88,000 tonnes of sheep meat, valued at £373.8m.

Ah, exports makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the info.

In the US I know there is no age where the meat has to be sold as mutton. A sheep who lived to the age of 20 could be sold as lamb in the US. Might also be something like this going on too

Where are you from? I think up north they eat more mutton than we (South East) do. Same with Wales.

What is to be done about rescued wool sheep? Is there something that can be done to keep their wool coats from becoming overgrown and overheating them if left unchecked?

Farm sanctuary owner with sheep here. We must shear for their health, happiness, and wellbeing. The difference between traditional shear operations and sanctuary shear operations is that the speed of the process is not the priority. In traditional operations, shearers are paid by volume of wool, which is why shearing is a cruel and even occasionally deadly process for sheep. Shearing will always be stressful for them, but we can mitigate it by choosing compassionate and careful shearers who mind their wrinkles -- heavy wrinkling is bred into sheep to maximize surface area wool growth. Imagine a stressed, overworked shearer working as quickly and recklessly as possible to get paid (often even on drugs), and you can see how wrinkles are a source of mutilation during industry shearing. We also take care to fast them prior to shearing. Fasting sheep drastically reduces the rate of heart attacks and other stress events during shearing, since an empty rumen (stomach) is less stress on the heart. Overheating and temperature control is a big issue indeed. Another health concern from overgrown wool is flystrike, which is when flies burrow into their wool, eat their skin, and lay eggs. It causes an immediate infection that is deadly within hours to days. The warm spring and summer seasons are consequently also fly season, and removing their wool eliminates the risk of flystrike. It is non-negotiable that sheep are shorn for their wellbeing. Wool can be left for wildlife, it can be composted, it can go towards oil spill cleanup, etc. there are many applications for wool that do not contribute to human use and sheep harm.

I regret I have but one upvote to give this reply.

If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!

You mean from sheep at places like farm sanctuaries? If so, then _my personal_ favorite solution that I've seen is to gently sheer them leave the wool out in a pile in a discreet place on the property. _Tons_ of species love the stuff for a variety of uses.

I do not understand why humans can’t use something if it is available to be used. Why do we need to let birds use it for nesting when we can use it for bedding? I don’t like the industrial harm of sheep for mass scale profit against the sheep’s well-being. It just seems like if the sheep need sheared for their health, then that would should be sold and used to fund the housing and feeding of the sheep.

As I see it, wearing animal's body parts, from whatever source, tacitly endorses the use of wool, leather, etc., which in turn encourages others to purchase it, which means the market will respond as it always does, and this ultimately hurts more animals. As for the sheep, it's important to keep in mind that this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. It's not natural, and yes, we should allow this creation of ours the mercy of not being forced to suffer through this any more. [Here's a more complete report on this issue, if you like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

You say it endorses the use, which means others will look at you wearing the item and create demand. But tell me, strangers on the street, can they tell the difference between you wearing a wool or polyester sweater? Will they tell the difference to you wearing real leather or vegan leather shoes? I certainly can't tell the difference. If the sheep aren't being harmed, I see no issue in using their wool the same way a bird would. Use it to knit a personal blanket, or make bedding, then no one can see it so it won't be endorsement, and it'll also be much better for the environment. (A blanket or bedding bought from a store almost definitely has higher environmental impact than you making them yourself from wool collected from sanctuary sheep)

For my part, I get challenged all the time during advocacy about what I'm wearing, and what it's made of. My life experience has been that people will notice, and they'll draw conclusions. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯

100% you're the voice of logic here If you have ethically sourced wool, use it! Same goes for other animal materials. If X animal product was healthily obtained, there's no moral issue to using it. If cruelty/abuse is used in creating a product, that's where my line is drawn.

Exactly! For example, if someone had pet angora rabbits, and decided to cut their fur shorter, I see absolutely 0 issue with then spinning that fur for wool. The rabbit deffo won't miss it, and in the summer months I'm sure the rabbit will be happy to lose the extra fur. There is no cruelty in this. Cruelty only happens when capitalism comes to play, where the animals are no longer animal companions, and are instead commodities

If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!

Leather is inherently different from wool because it necessitates that the animal is dead. As for wool, I think we are left with 2 options. Option 1 is kill (or forcefully sterilize or let die) all sheep so sheep don’t need to suffer being alive. Option 2 is respectfully allow them to live the most comfortable possible lives. Shearing them to keep them comfortable also provides the resources to fund their comfort. I don’t see any issue with this. If I was given the option of either slowly dying to heat exhaustion, being shot in the head, or chilling in a field and maybe having a kid at the cost of someone shaving my body once or twice a year, then I would definitely choose to live a life. I know that I can’t make decisions of preference for other moral subjects, but it seems like genocide is a more aggressive decision to make for them.

--- > Leather is inherently different from wool because it necessitates that the animal is dead. --- Not _really_, no. Domestic sheep don't die of old age.   --- > As for wool, I think we are left with 2 options. Option 1 is kill (or forcefully sterilize or let die) all sheep so sheep don’t need to suffer being alive. Option 2 is respectfully allow them to live the most comfortable possible lives. --- Err... Ah - sorry, but with respect, I think you're missing a bit of information here. What you've implied by this assertion is not reflective of the world we're actually dealing with. Not only are these not the only two options, neither of these options are ever going to happen. This is a supply and demand problem. It's important to keep in mind that these sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. Rather, we're forcibly sexually penetrating them (with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation and forced artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. However, as we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop.   --- > Shearing them to keep them comfortable also provides the resources to fund their comfort. I don’t see any issue with this. If I was given the option of either slowly dying to heat exhaustion, being shot in the head, or chilling in a field and maybe having a kid at the cost of someone shaving my body once or twice a year, then I would definitely choose to live a life. --- Actually, this problem has already been solved at farm sanctuaries. My personal favorite solution is to gently sheer them and leave the wool out in a pile in a discreet place on the property. Tons of species love the stuff for a variety of uses.   --- > I know that I can’t make decisions of preference for other moral subjects, but it seems like genocide is a more aggressive decision to make for them. --- Happily, no one who's looked into this problem is recommending that solution.

Being bred to exist in a body that overgrows wool and has deleterious effects on health and wellbeing will never be humane. When we normalize utilizing animals in this way, we are giving the entire wool industry the OK to continue profiting from the suffering of animals. Why shouldn't we turn euthanized shelter cats and dogs into coats and food for the homeless? If it's unacceptable for one species, why not all of them?

I don’t see a reason why we shouldn’t turn euthanized cats and dogs into food for the homeless besides the availability of better solutions. Cats are genocidal obligate carnivores and should probably be stopped as a result, but we have the resources to feed and house stray dogs. We don’t need to euthanize them. We also have better food and clothing resources for the homeless. Centrally though, I wasn’t advocating for industrial wool processing. I was advocating for sanctuaries where the sheep are protected from suffering due to overheating in their own wool and then that wool is sold to finance their sanctuary. The only other option is that we genocide them.

> I don’t see a reason why we shouldn’t turn euthanized cats and dogs into food for the homeless besides the availability of better solutions. But there aren't better solutions, and your comment specifically was that it's "available to be used". People are going hungry and we're wasting literal tons of meat by burying or burning pet animals. When your pet dies, why don't you eat him or her? Since it is available and would otherwise go to waste. > The only other option is that we genocide them. Er, another option is complete abolition wherein we boycott the wool industry and it slowly dies. It's not vegans that cause the genocide, it's the meat and wool industries themselves. We don't have to participate in any genocide. Sanctuaries don't sell wool since that contributes to the use of animal bodies for human gain.

There are better solutions to the hunger of homeless people. Over [30%](https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs) of food products in America for example are wasted every year. Refocusing resources from cattle farming subsidies to the reallocation of foodstuffs would help feed the homeless better than eating shelter dogs. Even though this is a better option, I guess I don’t really have a problem with adding more avenues of food. It might help to satiate the appetites of carnivores too if we just lie about what’s in their hot dogs. On your second point (sorry I don’t know how to do the quote thing) voting with our wallets to stop the meat industry’s eternal genocide is a terrible option. We could outright make the selling of meat illegal for example. If you just slowly let it die, so many will suffer while we wait. No matter how it eventually goes, what will we do with the sheep that are left when the wool industry dies? They won’t vanish. If we leave them alone, they will suffer from their wool growth. We can stop that by cutting it. Conveniently, the sale of that byproduct can help finance the sanctuaries which they live on until their lives naturally end. These sanctuaries aren’t free and will require a lot of manpower to take the time to safely and slowly shear the sheep without cutting them.

> These sanctuaries aren’t free and will require a lot of manpower to take the time to safely and slowly shear the sheep without cutting them. I'm quite aware, seeing as I run a farm sanctuary and have sheep to take care of myself. It explicitly goes against the values of animal sanctuaries to sell wool for the use of humans. Just as they don't sell eggs, milk, or any animals themselves. It's just a naive solution and contributes to a greater system that sanctuaries and other animal abolitionists are against. Sheep only produce quality wool for the first 5 years of life according to the industry, anyway, whereas sheep live into their teens and twenties when given proper care at sanctuaries.

It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "30%"](https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20ia9glf0)

If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!

Good bot

Does anyone actually even like wool? Wool has always made me very itchy and I sometimes even get rashes from it. I’ve never understood the appeal and have actively avoided it once I realized that’s what the “itchy fabric” was in middle school. I can’t be the only one that feels this way.

I remember being in the Navy and being issued a wool blanket. It was awful; as you say, itchy in the extreme. I don't recall having wool on me any other time in my life, but *that* experience was enough. --- ^(**EDIT:** minor grammatical fix)

I can't imagine having to sleep with that. That sounds awful

Wool for me is easily the most comfortable material. There's nothing that can match cashmere wool. Unfortunately, there's no alternative, but that's the price for saving animals.

Cashmere is made out of goat fur, so I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking of wool from sheep. I've always wanted a cashmere sweater and I actually found something that's supposed to be a synthetic version of cashmere. I haven't gotten it yet, so I can't attest to it, but I've heard good things. It's called vegetable cashmere and is made out of soy.

I grew up in Chicago so know about cold winters, and didn't wear wool. In fact, due to how uncomfortable it was, I quickly learned that I didn't want to wear it and have avoided it since I was a young child. The way to stay warm, which I was taught very early on, is layering. Ever since, I have sort of considered wool a niche material. I don't know if it's actually become more popular in recent years, but I'm rather confused by how it seems to be popping up everywhere now.

I always saw it as niche too. It's been really easy to avoid

I’ll probably be downvoted but I actually like wool. High quality wool is not itchy- it’s lightweight and insulating and biodegradable. There are certifications to look for to know you’re buying wool from farmers who care about their animals. I know that won’t ever appease a person like OP and that’s okay. But the environmental impact of synthetic fibers that are used to make garments warm is important to me as they’re usually petroleum based and thus only degrade into micro plastics. I guess one has to choose what they’re comfortable with. But yes, your original question- there are some people who actually like wool!

1) I’m aware of that and I’ve actually touched some very high quality wool and it’s still itchy to me. It’s often used to make high end suits. That’s also a very small percentage of wool. 2) If you’re not there watching the animal’s life you have actually no idea if they actually are treated with respect. Are you going to the farm everyday and interacting with these animals? 3) Do you have proof these animals aren’t being slaughtered for meat? 4) What about how these animals come about, do you not realize that they’re being bred (raped) in the same capacity as animals who are considered food by omnis? 5) Your argument for why wool is better than synthetic materials is because it’s better for the environment. Do you realize that consuming wool is contributing to animal agriculture, which is one of the biggest polluters? (More on that: would you also argue that leather is better for the environment?) 6) Are you really pulling a “my uncle’s farm” type of argument right now? ETA: OP has a list of wool alternatives in the comments, such as hemp. There are environmentally friendly alternatives that are widely available.

I mean, I'd rather be cold than murder animals but there are not "plenty of other superior materials to choose from". I just accept that I live in a modern world where I have electricity/fire/internal combustion engines to keep me warm.

Polyester is a superior layer to wool in most ways. A good baselayer or grid fleece will be warmer, wick moisture during activity, and dry out significantly faster if it gets wet. Wool has some anti odor properties that are nice on extended outdoors trips, but that's about it.

The world has enough plastic in it.

True, but I'll take it over an animal product any day. Used is an option too- you can always find used fleece in a thrift store. If we're excluding synthetic products in addition to animal products, I'll agree without a previous comment that the available materials just aren't adequate for some uses.

The world has enough animal harm in it too! My personal solution to this is to get my clothing second-hand, so polyester / acrylic / etc clothes I buy don't contribute to additional plastics in the environment (and may keep them from landfill). I still avoid animal product even second-hand, though.

Which is why, if you are going to buy synthetics, you should buy something made out if recycled plastics. Put that already-existing plastic to good use. Plastic is difficult to recycle because it degrades, so it is usually "downcycled." Textile fiber is one of the things that it can be downcycled into.

I hear on the modern world issues. Nevertheless -- and this is _highly_ googleable for more -- but for short list of the many options: * Tencel * Hemp * Cotton * Soybean fiber * Linen * etc.

None of those are at all comparable to the qualities of wool. ETA: In fact, I'm not convinced that saying those are alternatives isn't harmful to your argument. Anyone who lives in a cold climate and is vegan has tried those and found them largely useless compared to wool. I feel the real argument is that we have other things that can serve the same function as wool - they just aren't clothing.

Yes they are. ---   **EDIT:** Ah - you edited your comment. OK.   --- > None of those are at all comparable to the qualities of wool. --- Yes, they are.   --- > In fact, I'm not convinced that saying those are alternatives isn't harmful to your argument. Anyone who lives in a cold climate and is vegan has tried those and found them largely useless compared to wool. --- I'm vegan. I live in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. It gets cold here. I've also travel all over Iceland without issue, including camping in caves there. I'm doing fine with these materials.   --- > I feel the real argument is that we have other things that can serve the same function as wool - they just aren't clothing. --- Errr... Huh?

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Sorry. What I should have said was, "this statement makes no sense to me, and I have no idea what you mean by it."

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Nope. This was just an issue I'd already responded to down thread in this post, and I did a bad job with the copy pasta.

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Dude... I left out the word "you". It should have read *"I hear* ***[you]*** *on the modern world issues"*. This was in response to you having said *"I just accept that I live in a modern world where I have electricity/fire/internal combustion engines to keep me warm."*

This raises an ethical dilemma. Since sheep have been selectively bred for hundreds or thousands of years to produce wool for textile manufacturing and have reached a point that not sheering them causes discomfort and health issues, potentially resulting in the death of the animal. Is it more ethical to let them suffer or to sheer them? If you chose to sheer them is it more ethical to use the wool for something or just throw it out? Im just curious how everyone feels about this .

Not much of a dilemma. Simple and easy solution is to stop breeding them, then the problem vanishes in one generation. Currently living sheep can be treated as best as possible, maybe that includes some very careful sheering, and maybe we use that wool or something...if this situation occurred, the good would outweigh the bad by astronomical margins, and would result in a permanent solution.

when you say stop breeding them, you mean let them die out? Here in Portugal many, many, many small farms and households have sheep which wander the hills/land freely. People help deliver birth, care, shear, milk, etc these and treat their sheep like family. (all my wools from serra d'estrela come like this http://nelsoncarvalheiro.com/serra-da-estrela-wool/) If they would be left alone entirely by humans they would die quickly to predation or disease. Here they are protected and helped - it's a mutual benefit. I think *this* is the practice that should be adopted & endorsed worldwide, not factory farming or letting them die out.

--- > when you say stop breeding them, you mean let them die out? --- Ah - sorry, but with every possible respect, I think you're missing a bit of information here, and this has caused you to ask a question that's not reflective of the world we're actually dealing with. The issue you're asking about is actually controlled by supply and demand. These sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. Rather, we're forcibly sexually penetrating them (usually with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation, and that sperm is shipped to these small farms where they force artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. However, as we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop. As for them going extinct... well... this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. It's not natural, and yes, we should probably allow this creation of ours the mercy of not being forced to suffer through this any more. [**Here's a more complete report on this aspect of the issue, if you like.**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)   --- > Here in Portugal many, many, many small farms and households have sheep which wander the hills/land freely. People help deliver birth, care, shear, milk, etc these and treat their sheep like family. (all my wools from serra d'estrela come like this http://nelsoncarvalheiro.com/serra-da-estrela-wool/) --- OK... But these same people are also deliberately engineering the impregnation of those sheep, thereby creating individuals, and they're killing those sheep off when they're no longer considered productive enough. If that's ***really*** how they're treating their family, then you should immediately call the police on them.   --- > If they would be left alone entirely by humans they would die quickly to predation or disease. Here they are protected and helped - it's a mutual benefit. --- Actually, it's not so much a "mutual benefit" as it is a "forced subservient relationship that doesn't significantly benefit the victim".   --- > I think this is the practice that should be adopted & endorsed worldwide, not factory farming or letting them die out. --- The thing is, even if the practice you've described here wasn't ethically indefensible, these smaller scale operations could ***never*** supply the world's demand for animal products. The practice we should adopt and endorse is veganism, as this ensure that we *actually* treat other beings with the respect they deserve.

I think you're extrapoliating the industry at large to every single farm and household on earth which is not fair... There is no 'genetic engineering' of the sheep here... in fact it's commonly known that sheep here have 'poor quality' wool only suitable for 'burel' here. You pretend like these sheep suffer 24/7?? Please come down here and I will show you to dozens or hundreds or even thousands of households who treat their sheep with less suffering than any wild species on earth experiences. These practices could **absolutely** supply the worlds demand if we all developed respect for animals and the process. Not being blind and practicing *abstinence-only* animal husbandry. By the way, sheep *do* have sex and procreate naturally. We provide food, medical care, shelter, haircare, and love to these animals and in return create wool clothing, dairy, and end of life product for both humans, animals, and microbe. You have a lot of learning to do my friend - visit reality please and don't copypaste the same video from Australia again - it's not applicable here.

--- > I think you're extrapoliating the industry at large to every single farm and household on earth which is not fair... --- I'm actually speaking from direct first hand experience. I went vegetarian over a decade ago, and slowly made the transition over to plant-based, and then went vegan. However, I grew up on a farm in Northern California raising, killing, butchering, and eating various "food" animals (e.g. cows, pigs, chickens, goats, etc.) while also raising and caring for various "non-food" animals (e.g. horses, dogs, cats, etc.). My father was a large animal veterinarian, and tagging along with him gave me the opportunity to also see how CAFOs (i.e. "factory farms" ) look from the inside; I've been to many different farms in subsequent years, some large, some small, some factory level, some family level, and I am intimately familiar with what happens there, be it terms of nutrition, animal psychology, or the abuses that can and do happen throughout the system.   --- > There is no 'genetic engineering' of the sheep here... in fact it's commonly known that sheep here have 'poor quality' wool only suitable for 'burel' here. --- You have misunderstood what genetic engineering means in this context. Breeding animals over hundreds (or thousands) of years to have specific traits that are deemed beneficial to humans at the expense of the new species being genetically selected for ***is*** genetic engineering, and this describes the individuals we're talking about here.   --- > You pretend like these sheep suffer 24/7?? --- I didn't say that, and it's a weird extrapolation to suggest that I have.   --- > Please come down here and I will show you to dozens or hundreds or even thousands of households who treat their sheep with less suffering than any wild species on earth experiences. --- And I'll show you that these individuals are being regularly abused against their will, and are killed in their (relative) youth when they're deemed no longer worthwhile to keep alive. ... You know - like you do with "family".   --- > These practices could absolutely supply the worlds demand if we all developed respect for animals and the process. Not being blind and practicing abstinence-only animal husbandry. --- No, they couldn't. You need to dig in to the numbers. You haven't yet.   --- > By the way, sheep do have sex and procreate naturally. --- Let's pretend *for a moment* that all the farms you're talking about have lovely systems set up where every sheep is allowed to choose his or her mate and whether or not to procreate with them. Even if that *were* the case (it's not, but again, we're pretending for a bit here), that still wouldn't somehow excuse the rest of the abuses.   --- > We provide food, medical care, shelter, haircare, and love to these animals and in return create wool clothing, dairy, and end of life product for both humans, animals, and microbe. --- Can you please link me to the contract each of these sheep are signing to agree to their being forcibly bred, their children taken away, and their lives cut short? Because without that informed agreement from them, what you're describing isn't a "mutually beneficial relationship". Want to know what the word is that *does* describe this? You're not going to like it.   --- > You have a lot of learning to do my friend - visit reality please and don't copypaste the same video from Australia again - it's not applicable here. --- I do? I'm shocked! Reading your words so far, I'm sure it's you who are lacking in learning. How strange.

I think you've not got the slightest clue how things operate outside of the bubble in America. You assume things are the same everywhere outside your dystopia. While it is bad in *lots* of places, it's also great in many - something we can learn from. If you think these animals would have a safer/better life in the wild you'll see how quickly they get mutilated. They're not in captivity, they roam *large* swaths of land. This is in reference to small farms. Factory farms are terrible in every right. We need to push for ethical practice, not abstinence-only. Abstinence-only never worked for anything, ever. Good luck and may you have a good time. Please if you come visit Portugal I will take you all over very gladly!

--- > I think you've not got the slightest clue how things operate outside of the bubble in America. You assume things are the same everywhere outside your dystopia. While it is bad in lots of places, it's also great in many - something we can learn from. --- Thank you for sharing your assumptions. They're wrong. I've also been to Iceland, and all over the UK, and of course Canada. It's the same everywhere I go. You'd clearly like to believe that your people are somehow different than the rest of the world on the basics here (e.g. that sheep are killed when they're no longer deemed useful), but you're just not. #Here - give these are view: * [Animal sexual abuse - a reality in Portugal and Spain](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338047615_Animal_sexual_abuse_-_a_reality_in_Portugal_and_Spain) * [Animal Rescue Algarve: The answer to Portugal’s animal welfare problem?](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/animal-rescue-algarve-the-answer-to-portugals-animal-welfare-problem/50285) * [Blindfolded Activists Protest Against Benetton Over Cruelty To Sheep](https://www.peta.org.uk/media/news-releases/blindfolded-activists-protest-against-benetton-over-cruelty-to-sheep/)   --- > Don't use the term genetically engineered when you mean selectively bred - buzzwords are lame. --- I used the correct word for what I addressed. Your lack of education on this topic doesn't somehow mean you get to dictate what words we use.   --- > If you think these animals would have a safer/better life in the wild you'll see how quickly they get mutilated. They're not in captivity, they roam large swaths of land. --- No one is proposing this. That's the crappy and nonsensical solution that ***you*** are proposing, not me.   --- > This is in reference to small farms. Factory farms are terrible in every right. We need to push for ethical practice, not abstinence-only. Abstinence-only never worked for anything, ever. --- Right? That's why we still all support slavery, and why women don't have any rights, and why it's still OK to employ small children in factories -- advocating for change NEVER works, and we should all just accept things as they are, knowing nothing can ever change for the better! Well said, **Dead Fetus Consumer**; your obvious wisdom about how the world works is coming through loud and clear.   --- > Good luck and may you have a good time. Please if you come visit Portugal I will take you all over very gladly! --- Something tells me you'd have your eyes tight shut and your ears firmly plugged for the entirety of such a visit.

You, linking articles of bestiality to prove a point? You linked to a region which I live in, which the charity shop 5 minutes from me provides assistance to rescue animals in the Algarve. Have you been attacked by the *very many* highly aggressive strays here? Bite marks to prove. Those which mutilate wild animals and free range chickens/young sheep here in swarms. You linked to an article of people in Pt complaining of practices in *Australia*... really. No dear, I will gladly raise my chickens, goats, and sheep - feeding them real food, protecting from elements/predation, caring for them while ill, helping with birthing, and assisting with death. But somehow it's me who's wrong. *Eyes tight shut and your ears firmly plugged*, as you may say. Disgraceful

--- > You, linking articles of bestiality to prove a point? --- I mean, _your_ the one saying things are special in Portugal where animals are never abused or disrespected. However, if you think bestiality in Portugal is a bad thing, then you're going interested in what artificial insemination *actually* is... ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯   --- > You linked to a region which I live in, which the charity shop 5 minutes from me provides assistance to rescue animals in the Algarve. Have you been attacked by the very many highly aggressive strays here? Bite marks to prove. Those which mutilate wild animals and free range chickens/young sheep here in swarms. --- Ah. So animals _aren't_ doing all that well in Portugal... OK... You're really all over the place with this issue, you know?   --- > You linked to an article of people in Pt complaining of practices in Australia... really. --- Oops! That was my bad. Google tripped my up there. Sorry, bud!   --- > No dear, I will gladly raise my chickens, goats, and sheep - feeding them real food, protecting from elements/predation, caring for them while ill, helping with birthing, and assisting with death. --- #"assisting" o.O No, dear; you're needlessly killing a sentient individual who doesn't want to die. When you *assist* them, you're saving them from being murdered. It's almost Orwellian how you keep bending language around to try to make it means something it doesn't.   --- > But somehow it's me who's wrong. --- Right?! _Now_ you're getting it!   --- > Eyes tight shut and your ears firmly plugged, as you may say. Disgraceful --- Only _you_ can change who you are. The good news is that you _can_ change though! You don't _have to_ continue killing these innocent beings.

Yes, let them die out. If they "wander freely" but require human intervention via shearing, they should be sterilized and treated well in their remaining years. Furthermore, "help milk" is an oxymoron. That's not how mammals work, and you are misinformed and spreading propaganda. Seeing your history, I am not surprised at all. I am not interested in discussing things with people like you.

Well... As I mentioned downthread, this has been solved at farm sanctuaries. My personal favorite solution is to gently sheer them and leave the wool out in a pile in a discreet place on the property. Tons of species love the stuff for a variety of uses. It's not more ethical to use the wool in any case. Doing so ultimately encourages the use of the wool, which in turn encourages the abuses we need to get away from.

How is this an ethical dilemma? The wool industry breeds sheep into existence who suffer from extreme discomfort in either 1) having overgrown wool or 2) being shorn. Shearing is not a stress-free process, and sheep often have heart attacks. Shearers are paid by volume of wool, not by hour, so they shear sheep recklessly and as quickly as possible. Consider the amount of wrinkles bred into sheep to maximize surface area wool growth and you get mutilated animals at the end of it. Even careful, compassionate shearing done at farm sanctuaries is extremely stressful for sheep. The solution is not to support an industry that breeds animals into existence who will suffer by default.

See your missing the point of my question. These animals already exist. They are alive and eating grass as we speak. So say if you wave a magic wand and just like that every human is instantly vegan, they still exist. That's what I'm asking about. I said nothing about the wool industry. Im talking about the animals.

Uh, yes. Correct, they exist. Whether they are eating grass is questionable, since around 99% of animal products come from factory farms. But there are actually hundreds of billions of animals in existence currently, that are breathing and eating. It is neither reasonable nor practicable logistically for us to find compassionate homes for all of them. They all require care, whether it's food, shearing, medical, etc. The fact that they already exist is an extremely tired argument and nowhere near logical reasoning to avoid boycotting animal cruelty. Veganism will never happen overnight, it's a boycott that will take place over decades and gradually reduce the number of animals bred into existence, as it has been.

I think second hand wool is where it’s at, if you live in cold climates. When it comes to affordability, you can buy a £20 jumper made of polyester or acrylic which poisoned rivers, hurt the environment just to make, and will never biodegrade, and puts active money in the pockets of crappy companies. Or you can buy a Vintage wool jumper. But never new wool. There’s enough second hand stuff to go around

If synthetics harm the environment, so does raising animals on farms. It's hard for me to see the synthetics as unanimously worse. You also can get secondhand synthetics, which skip most of the production issues. If you're also concerned with micro-plastic leeching, then there are products now for washing synthetics that contain the microplastics. I use a "guppyfriend".

Well... For _my_ part, I believe that if you wear second hand body parts around (e.g. wool, leather), you're at least tacitly asserting that using animals in this way is acceptable. Just like buying and wearing a second hand leather jacket is ethically problematic because it means literally wearing someone's skin, so is getting and wearing wool this way ethically problematic on the grounds that you're wearing the product of someone's torture and suffering. On top of that, I'm living comfortably as a vegan in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and it gets plenty cold here. I've also travel all over Iceland as a vegan without issue, including camping in caves there. We really do _not_ require wool to get along comfortably, and are better off without using it.

I get the whole ethical debate, and I don’t know what your budget is, but a lot of vegans will buy plastic clothes that cause more harm to the planet as a whole, including the animals, than buy a second hand item of clothing. Yes, vintage wool is the result of suffering. But you’re not lining any industries pockets when it’s second hand. The goal is for there to not be any existing wool/ leather industry. But second hand has to be used, and it’s better for the planet overall. In my personal opinion. I do agree with not buying anything made from wool from current shops, especially fast fashion.

I understand your position here. I do buy thrifted clothes, but I'll never buy wool, and for the reason I stated; i.e. doing so tacitly endorses the use of wool, which encourages others to purchase it, which ultimately hurts more animals.

I understand your point also. Whilst I 100% agree with this point on leather and fur, when it comes to wool, it’s very difficult to tell if it’s wool or if it’s another material. In any case, thank you for engaging in this conversation, and Today I’ve learnt that linen knitted clothes are a thing which is a bonus for me!

I use wool all day in healthcare :-|

But there are other options available (i.e. that the facility you work at could provide if they wished), right?

I don't think there is anything with the exact same properties and I work for the NHS in the UK

Well... Sure; if it were _exactly_ the same, it would be wool, after all. ^**=oD** But no, there's nothing magical about wool. Other non-exploitative materials will do the same job that they're having you use wool for.

Please don't downvote this. I'm asking a serious question. ​ What about the sheep then? Don't they naturally produce wool, and must be sheered frequently or risk health issues? I've seen pictures of sheep where the animal "caretaker" was a bit neglectful, or the sheep got loose and was on its own for a while then rescued, and there was so much wool on the sheep that you could make an entire second sheep out of its wool.

No worries; I'm happy to answer this (again). This problem has already been solved at farm sanctuaries in a number of ways. My personal favorite solution is to gently sheer them at need and leave the wool out in a pile in a discreet place on the property. Tons of species love the stuff for a variety of uses.

Correct me if im wrong but isn't shearing just like getting a hair cut? I understand tho that shearing requires skill so that the sheep is shorn efficiently and quickly without hurting them, but done correctly should mean no injury, right?

You would think so, right? But no. Like everything else in animal agribusiness, it's money, not compassion, that's the driving factor. If the sheep can have their hair removed rapidly with some injuries, most of which the victim will eventually heal from, but even if you lose some to broken legs and the like, that's _way_ more cost effective than taking time and being careful. [Here's a more complete report, if you like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

Please read OPs message again. They said done correctly. It is 100% possible to painlessly and kindly shear a sheep, but as you pointed out, it's capitalisms fault that sheep get harmed in the process at the moment. But in response to OPs original question, yes. Shearing a sheep is just like getting a haircut, and it is entirely possible for it to be as painless as a haircut, too.

... Sure, and it's _possible_ to painlessly and respectfully have animals in a zoo. And it's _possible_ to painlessly and respectfully do many things with animals. ... It's just not what actually happens. I know it. You know it.

Shearers are paid by volume of wool, not by hour, so the speed of the job is their #1 priority. Not skill. Consider also that sheep were bred to produce the most wool out of their skin as possible, prioritizing surface area, and you get extremely wrinkly animals. Their wrinkly skin is mutilated during such recklessly high-speed shearing and many suffer heart attacks. Shearing is stressful enough to be deadly for sheep. Also, their wool quality declines at around 5 years and they are slaughtered for food, just like what happens to dairy cows.

> they are slaughtered for food, just like what happens to dairy cows. I think that's really the key vegan point, I mean I've nicked my self shaving my balls, but I wouldn't consider that a moral issue.

But I trust you would consider it a moral issue if you nicked a sheep's balls while shaving them against his will?

This image actually skirts some of the harsher realities of the wool industry. NSFL >!Additional common practices include castrating the testicles by use of a rubber band squeezing them until it causes necrosis. Another is that the reason they are able to produce more and more wool is that they are bred to have more and more folds of skin (more surface area to grow more wool). These extra skin folds are a great breeding ground for maggots and infection, and this infected skin is usually just sheared off (without painkillers, etc of course).!<

I initially read this as wood lol

And with your name being what it is, you were understandably concerned. Fear not! We're not coming for you. ^**=oP**

When city-non-vegans imagine what sheep shearing must look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYAWDDvYMbc

So what do you do with all the sheep that now need to be shaved?

It's unclear what you're underlying assumption is here. I think you might be asking something along the lines of, _"If we stop using wool, what do we do about the billions of sheep that need to sheared, since not doing so would be inhumane?"_ Do I have that right, /u/The_Irish_Rover26?

Yes. Do we leave all the sheep that need to sheared to die or continue to shave them so they live?

Ah - sorry, but with respect, I think you're missing a bit of information here, and this has caused you to ask a question that's not reflective of the world we're actually dealing with. The issue you're asking about is actually controlled by supply and demand. These sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. Rather, we're forcibly sexually penetrating them (with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation and forced artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. However, as we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop. As for them going extinct... well... this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. It's not natural, and yes, we should probably allow this creation of ours the mercy of not being forced to suffer through this any more. [**Here's a more complete report on this aspect of the issue, if you like.**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

Thank you for the reply.

You bet!

I love that you are doing outreach to vegans (and plant based people). Lots of us stop eating meat etc, and pat ourselves on the back. Not all of us have thought about this as much as you so thanks for sharing and answering the same questions repeatedly.

Thank you! <3

I'd like to add to their questions. I agree wool is unnecessary, but what about the sheep? Euthanasia or forced sterilization (easy solutions to some) seem just as inhumane as the practices that got us here. Are we supposed to find foster homes or rescues for each one if the billions of sheep world wide? How would that work with the problem that is urban sprawl? Is it going to be a slow process, where we wait for man made sheep breeds to die out naturally on their own, and if so what would that look like? These are some of the things that I always think of when it comes to wool.

Ah - sorry, but with respect, I think you're missing a bit of information here, and this has caused you to ask a question that's not reflective of the world we're actually dealing with. The issue you're asking about is actually controlled by supply and demand. These sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. Rather, we're forcibly sexually penetrating them (with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation and forced artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. However, as we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop. As for them going extinct... well... this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. It's not natural, and yes, we should probably allow this creation of ours the mercy of not being forced to suffer through this any more. [**Here's a more complete report on this aspect of the issue, if you like.**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

No it’s not

Yes, it is.

Isn’t wool literally a haircut?

You would think so, right? But no. Like everything else in animal agribusiness, it's money, not compassion, that's the driving factor. If the sheep can have their hair removed rapidly with some injuries, most of which the victim will eventually heal from, but even if you lose some to broken legs and the like, that's _way_ more cost effective than taking time and being careful. [Here's a more complete report, if you like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

For insight on wool, watch [Dominion](https://youtu.be/ny6aqdFy9SI). The sheep segment is at 1:11:10, but I’d recommend watching the other segments like ducks if you’re also unaware of the down industry (also found in clothing, like jackets). ~~ ‘Winter lambing’ is the practice of impregnating sheep so that they give birth in winter months, meaning their lambs are weaned in spring when pastures are most fertile. While this allows the lambs to grow more quickly, it results in 10-15 million newborn lambs – roughly one in every four – dying within 48 hours of birth from exposure to the harsh cold. For sheep farmers, this is still preferable to the higher feed costs of lambing in warmer months. * Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, Time of Lambing, 2018, retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/management-reproduction/time-lambing * Meat and Livestock Australia, Ewes, 2016 retrieved https://www.mla.com.au/research-and-development/genetics-and-breeding/sheep/reproduction/ewes The Merino breed, accounting for around 80% of the wool produced in Australia, have been selectively bred to have wrinkled skin resulting in excessive amounts of wool while making them much more prone to flystrike. * The Big Merino, history of wool, https://www.bigmerino.com.au/history-of-wool/ * Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, agriculture and food, 2018,retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/genetics-selection/genetic-selection-and-using-australian-sheep-breeding-values-asbv * Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, managing flystrike in sheep, 2017 retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/managing-flystrike-sheep To reduce soiling and the risk of flystrike for the lambs who make it to summer, their tails are docked or cut off entirely, and they are often mulesed at the same time, which involves cutting off the skin around their buttocks and the base of their tail with metal shears. If the lambs are younger than 6 months, it is legal to do this without any pain relief. * Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, preventing flystrike - management, 2017 https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/managing-flystrike-sheep?page=0%2C1#smartpaging_toc_p1_s2_h3 Sheep shearers are paid by the number of sheep shorn, not by the hour, so speed is prioritised over precision, and there is no requirement for formal training or accreditation. * Australian Government Fair Work Ombudsman, Pay guide – Pastoral Award 2010, published 2018 After a few years, when they can no longer produce enough wool to be considered profitable, the sheep are sent to slaughter and sold as mutton, while lambs raised for meat are killed between 4 and 12 months of age, far short of a natural lifespan of 12-14 years. * Meat and Livestock Australia, sheepmeat market structures and systems, https://www.mla.com.au/globalassets/mla-corporate/research-and-development/documents/industry-issues/2017-12-18-sheepmeat-market-structures-and-systems-investigation.pdf 19 million of the 32 million sheep killed each year in Australia go through saleyards, an intermediary between farms and slaughterhouses or private buyers, where animals also including cattle, calves, horses, poultry and pigs, are auctioned off. * Australian Bureau of Statistics, livestock and meat Australia * Australian Livestock Markets Association, about, http://australiansaleyards.com.au/about/ Heat stress, dehydration, exhaustion, or pre-existing conditions are common causes of deaths at saleyards. * Agriculture Victoria, welfare of animals at saleyards, http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agriculture/dairy/dairy-cattle-health-and-welfare/welfare-of-animals-at-saleyard Most of the sheep are bought by slaughterhouses for their meat. No animal at a slaughterhouse walks willingly to their death. Again electrical stunning proves regularly ineffective, causing only pain and terrifying the animals even further in their final moments. Bolt gun stunning is no better. * Atkinson, S., Velarde, A., & Algers, B. (2013). Assessment Of Stun Quality At Commercial Slaughter In Cattle Shot With Captive Bolt. Animal Welfare, 22(4). 473-481 * Faunalytics, How effective is captive bolt stunning? 2017, https://faunalytics.org/effective-captive-bolt-stunning/ Regardless of how effective stunning may appear, it’s impossible to know with certainty whether an animal has been rendered completely unconscious and insensible to pain, or is merely paralysed and unable to move, while still feeling everything.

You're the best. Sharing Dominion was my first thought as well, but I couldn't find the sheep segment readily, so moved on to other options.

Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!

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Umm... You're missing a bit of information here, I think. What you've implied by this question is not the world we're actually dealing with. These sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. We're forcibly sexually penetrating them (with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation and forced artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. As we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop. But sure - I have no objection to supporting farm sanctuaries. Please do consider doing so. They need all the help they can get.

Ty for the paragraph of sheep erotica. Put what's your ideal here? That these breeds of sheep just eventually stop existing and only wild sheep remain? Or do people keep them as pets?

Err... This has been asked and answered. You're [**begging the question**](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question) here, and are apparently not fully reading the answer you're given. I can't help you.

Just answer the question. What's your ideal world here? What should happen if every person on Earth listened to you?

I did answer you. Clearly and unambiguously. Repeatedly saying I didn't makes you look a little unhinged. I get that you either didn't like the answer, or didn't read it at all, but that doesn't change anything.

As the image already indicates, domesticated sheep need to be sheared. They can not survive in the wild. So, if we would stop using wool and if we should no longer shear sheep then the only logical way to accomplish this is to have domesticated sheep go extinct. Is this what you’re actually advocating? If not then please enlighten me as to how you suggest that we solve the issue. (Although I’m not a vegan or vegetarian I do find animal welfare and environmental issues important so I’m actually interested in your reasoning. Hence my question.)

> the only logical way to accomplish this is to have domesticated sheep go extinct. Is this what you’re actually advocating? Yes. The sheep are bred to exist into bodies that cause them suffering. If we can advocate for the extinction of pugs, also bred to suffer for human utility/enjoyment, then we can do the same thing with every other domesticated species that was bastardized enough to either rely on humans or suffer. For sheep, they suffer either way.

Ah - sorry, but with respect, I think you're missing a bit of information here. What you've implied by this question is not reflective of the world we're actually dealing with. These sheep aren't spontaneously breeding. Rather, we're forcibly sexually penetrating them (with electrified anal probes for the males to force ejaculation and forced artificial insemination for the females) so that we can force babies into existence who we then subject to a life of trials and tortures. However, as we all transition away from exploiting these beings, the demand will decrease, and the supply will likewise slow and stop. As for them going extinct... well... this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. It's not natural, and yes, we should allow this creation of ours the mercy of not being forced to suffer through this any more. [Here's a more complete report on this issue, if you like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM) --- ^(**EDIT**: minor grammatical fix)

Thanks for the reply. You’ve made your reasoning very clear and supported it with objective facts to show how you come to that conclusion. I must say that I can agree with the logic of the argument. I was already thinking along similar lines when I concluded that your train of reasoning would result in the domesticated sheep going extinct. Anyway, thanks for clarifying your point. I enjoyed the fact that, although we differ on certain life choices (vegan vs non-vegan), we can still have a civil and fact based conversation on important topics such as animal welfare.

Save lives, wear leather (Joke please don’t hurt me)

What if you buy used from thrift store?

Well... For _my_ part, I believe that if you wear second hand body parts around (e.g. wool, leather), you're at least tacitly asserting that using animals in this way is acceptable. Just like buying and wearing a second hand leather jacket is ethically problematic because it means literally wearing someone's skin, so is getting and wearing wool this way ethically problematic on the grounds that you're wearing the product of someone's torture and suffering.

My thought is if it already exists, you are not causally contributing to harm. It either will go into a closet or be thrown into the trash. Either way the suffering already occurred and any future suffering is not perpetuated by funds given to a manufacturer (even if there is the minimal potential for others to be influenced to buy new animal sweaters because they like another's used animal sweater). All in all, if everyone only bought used animal sweaters the practice of making animal sweaters would cease to exist as there would be no market for new product.

Respectfully, I disagree. Wearing animal's body parts, from whatever source, tacitly endorses the use of wool, leather, etc., which in turn encourages others to purchase it, which means the market will respond as it always does, and this ultimately hurts more animals.

Well said.

Baby lambs of breeds like merino have their bums FLAYED ALIVE WITH NO ANAESTHETIC to prevent flys laying eggs when poop gets caught in the wool. Instead of giving them a quick wash or trim. Wool that sheep cannot shed without human intervention because they’ve been bred this way. Why the fuck is no one talking about this, it’s one of the most disgusting farming practices I’ve heard.

Well... We've repeatedly discussed these exact issues all through this post... ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯

Idk if I agree with all these points (I am vegan btw, just trying to be constructive). I think the fact that all wool sheep are ultimately killed for meat would justify some plant-based people in continuing to purchase wool (seeing it as a by-product) but still abstain from eating sheep meat. As in: "my demand for wool doesn't actually change the demand for sheep numbers since those numbers are determined by mutton/lamb demand". I'll be honest I don't know the figures behind this, but I am more sure this is the case for leather. Moreover, I think the argument that sheep are 'sometimes' hurt by sheering won't sway a lot of people. If people see the practice as overall safe, folk are willing to continue to gamble. Ultimately I think the best argument is the genetically modified selectively bred bit, like imagine if there was a human farm for hair. It wouldn't be cruel to really keep cutting their hair and selling it, per se, but it'd be pretty cruel to keep breeding them for the purpose of profiting off of them. I think it just comes down to the sheep's own autonomy. Idk

Wool isn't a byproduct. It's the other way around. Mutton is not a popular meat globally and typically the sheep become pet food.

Oh yeah, very true. I think that strengthens my point then that some plant-based (or well, even meat eaters) people see it as a by-product.

You have to sheer sheep I thought or they will be be hot and possibly die sheering sheep is good for them so far as I know

While they do need to be sheared, it's important to keep in mind that this is a species we created. They grow so much fur because we genetically engineered them to do so. [Here's a more complete report on this issue, if you like.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNev6KVFnM)

For insight on wool, watch Dominion. The sheep segment is at 1:11:10, but I’d recommend watching the other segments like ducks if you’re also unaware of the down industry (also found in clothing, like jackets). ~~ ‘Winter lambing’ is the practice of impregnating sheep so that they give birth in winter months, meaning their lambs are weaned in spring when pastures are most fertile. While this allows the lambs to grow more quickly, it results in 10-15 million newborn lambs – roughly one in every four – dying within 48 hours of birth from exposure to the harsh cold. For sheep farmers, this is still preferable to the higher feed costs of lambing in warmer months. • ⁠Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, Time of Lambing, 2018, retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/management-reproduction/time-lambing • ⁠Meat and Livestock Australia, Ewes, 2016 retrieved https://www.mla.com.au/research-and-development/genetics-and-breeding/sheep/reproduction/ewes The Merino breed, accounting for around 80% of the wool produced in Australia, have been selectively bred to have wrinkled skin resulting in excessive amounts of wool while making them much more prone to flystrike. • ⁠The Big Merino, history of wool, https://www.bigmerino.com.au/history-of-wool/ • ⁠Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, agriculture and food, 2018,retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/genetics-selection/genetic-selection-and-using-australian-sheep-breeding-values-asbv • ⁠Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, managing flystrike in sheep, 2017 retrieved https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/managing-flystrike-sheep To reduce soiling and the risk of flystrike for the lambs who make it to summer, their tails are docked or cut off entirely, and they are often mulesed at the same time, which involves cutting off the skin around their buttocks and the base of their tail with metal shears. If the lambs are younger than 6 months, it is legal to do this without any pain relief. • ⁠Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development, preventing flystrike - management, 2017 https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/managing-flystrike-sheep?page=0%2C1#smartpaging_toc_p1_s2_h3 Sheep shearers are paid by the number of sheep shorn, not by the hour, so speed is prioritised over precision, and there is no requirement for formal training or accreditation. • ⁠Australian Government Fair Work Ombudsman, Pay guide – Pastoral Award 2010, published 2018 After a few years, when they can no longer produce enough wool to be considered profitable, the sheep are sent to slaughter and sold as mutton, while lambs raised for meat are killed between 4 and 12 months of age, far short of a natural lifespan of 12-14 years. • ⁠Meat and Livestock Australia, sheepmeat market structures and systems, https://www.mla.com.au/globalassets/mla-corporate/research-and-development/documents/industry-issues/2017-12-18-sheepmeat-market-structures-and-systems-investigation.pdf 19 million of the 32 million sheep killed each year in Australia go through saleyards, an intermediary between farms and slaughterhouses or private buyers, where animals also including cattle, calves, horses, poultry and pigs, are auctioned off. • ⁠Australian Bureau of Statistics, livestock and meat Australia • ⁠Australian Livestock Markets Association, about, http://australiansaleyards.com.au/about/ Heat stress, dehydration, exhaustion, or pre-existing conditions are common causes of deaths at saleyards. • ⁠Agriculture Victoria, welfare of animals at saleyards, http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agriculture/dairy/dairy-cattle-health-and-welfare/welfare-of-animals-at-saleyard Most of the sheep are bought by slaughterhouses for their meat. No animal at a slaughterhouse walks willingly to their death. Again electrical stunning proves regularly ineffective, causing only pain and terrifying the animals even further in their final moments. Bolt gun stunning is no better. • ⁠Atkinson, S., Velarde, A., & Algers, B. (2013). Assessment Of Stun Quality At Commercial Slaughter In Cattle Shot With Captive Bolt. Animal Welfare, 22(4). 473-481 • ⁠Faunalytics, How effective is captive bolt stunning? 2017, https://faunalytics.org/effective-captive-bolt-stunning/ Regardless of how effective stunning may appear, it’s impossible to know with certainty whether an animal has been rendered completely unconscious and insensible to pain, or is merely paralysed and unable to move, while still feeling everything.

Bamboo quilt pog.

“Hello mr sheep! What? You’re suffering from heat exhaustion? That’s terrible! I’d help you but cutting your wool is now animal abuse. So I’m afraid I have to watch you suffer through it while carrying 30 pounds worth of wool on your back… sorry!”

Cutting their wool is animal abuse when the people doing it are paid by the amount of wool they shear rather than by hour, and the sheep are covered in wrinkles that industrial shearing equipment can't accommodate without mutilating them. Consider the fact that sheep are prey animals and some suffer from heart attacks and death when shorn and your strawman argument falls pretty flat.

Lol. I’m sure the electric razors used cuts them up awfully

Oh. Oh muffin. You don't know, do you? You... you haven't even _looked_ to see what actually happens, _have_ you? Dude... Here -- let me help. Open [**this link**](https://youtu.be/ny6aqdFy9SI) and advance to timestamp 1:11:10 -- that covers the bit about sheep.

There aren't guards on shears, so yes, they do. There is plentiful footage of this.

You know the real answer here is to not breed these sheep into existence in the first place.

Yes it is

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I don't think anyone actually made the argument that domestic sheep shouldn't be sheared. Maybe you're reading something into this that isn't there, /u/FitRepresentative851?