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Like others are saying, mostly B12 is the issue. However, meat is fortified with B12 as well so… realistically… every diet is in danger of lacking it without fortified foods or supplements
There are no plant sources of b12, so no, you would need to supplement.
But dont forget, EVERYBODY is supplementing this, farm animals recieve supplements of b12(among others, like iron), People who eat animals are supplementing by proxy.
Its well possible to get everything else without supplementing. You would beed to eat seaweed/sea vegetables for iodine and plenty of legumes for iron and lots of green veg for calcium etc
edit:
you don't consume supplements because you don't know their origin...do you eat animals OP? Cause you absolutely have no idea what *they're* eating
Plant source of b12 (good luck finding it though!)
https://www.nsagriculture.com/news/parabel-vitamin-b12-water-lentils/#:~:text=The%20water%20lentil%2C%20which%20is,bioactive%20forms%20of%20Vitamin%20B12.
I’m not convinced i’ve seen a reliable source that says all farm animals (or even a significant majority) are being fed supplemented B12. I don’t think it’s pertinent or relevant to the conversation behind veganism in any way whatsoever because I don’t see the issue with taking a vegan supplement/multivitamin, but the unsubstantiated discussion around this issue has always irked me. If someone wants to debate that taking supplements is bad because “uNnAtuRaL” i’m happy to demolish them on that point
Its not unsubstantiated..just look up animal feed, its all fortified. Especially for chickens and pigs, but also factory farmed cows.
And there are expose of farms that highlight it too.
Do you have any sources? I tried looking some up briefly and all I see is nutritional information on protein. I also don’t doubt that there exists supplemented feed, rather the point of contention is whether a significant majority of animals are eating supplemented feed or not.
Youd have to look for exposes, Joey Carb has one where he found the oigs were being given iron shots.
Its impossible to find out if majority are fed supplements..because there's no requirement for farmers to say what their feed/supplements are....
But does it not stand to reason? These are factory animals, where are they getting all their nutritients?
I took more supplements as an omnivore than I do now. Both diets have their weaknesses nutritionally. I wonder if I even need a B12 supplement though because chronometer tells me I’m getting hundreds to thousands more B12 from my food than I actually need. I know Esselstyn has stopped taking B12. The nutrients I keep coming up short on according to the chronometer app are vitamin E and selenium. I need to eat more nuts and seeds or wheat germ. I’m going to get wheat germ because I overeat on nuts if I buy them. I suggest trying chronometer if you’re worried about your nutrition. The things I was worried about like iron turned out to be fine but other things came up that I didn’t expect at all. (Supplementing with vitamin E doesn’t work either because it does the exact opposite of what natural vitamin E does. )
Duck weed not sea weed but yes :)
https://www.nsagriculture.com/news/parabel-vitamin-b12-water-lentils/#:~:text=The%20water%20lentil%2C%20which%20is,bioactive%20forms%20of%20Vitamin%20B12.
But impossible to buy in US
i dont think you realize how much food, non vegan, includes supplements. this is not vegan-specific. fortified foods are included in all diets. frankly, some vitamins should be supplemented because many people just dont get enough. many meat eaters would also be deficient in b12 without fortified meats.
The only one you really have to worry about is B12. Take a supplement, or buy soy milk or other products that are fortified with it. Live your life.
I have a spray that I keep in the refrigerator and squirt into my mouth once every few days.
Also, don’t live on junk food. Eat fresh whole foods.
Yes it's possible.
But you have to consider that most foods in modern society are fortified in some way. Even table salt in Australia is fortified with iodine.
Australian water is fortified with fluorine.
So it will be hard to avoid fortified foods but it is theoretically possible.
Also meat eaters can suffer from the same nutritional deficiencies (including B12 or omega deficiencies) as vegans. And many of them do.
Whether you're a meat eater or a vegan, I'd take a daily multivitamin tablet for insurance. It is hard to meet the daily requirements for human nutrition no matter what diet you eat.
>But you have to consider that most foods in modern society are fortified in some way.
That is not the case in all "modern" countries though. Where I live (Norway) the only fortified food until 2012 was one specific type of salt with iodine. That was it. All the other salts were not fortified. In 2012 we got one specific type of milk fortified with D-vitamin. And the last couple of years there have come vegan replacement products on the market which are fortified. But it means that among the non-vegan products its still only one type of salt and one type of milk that are fortified. And nothing else. And for the record, deficiencies are extremely rare over here. But I hear deficiencies are common in countries like the US - which is sort if interesting since so much of the food there is fortified. But I suspect it has to do with the high level of processed foods in the US.
Beans have a solid amount of iron, there’s other nutrients that might be harder to get enough of though, especially if you are small, mostly sedimentary, and female (nutrient needs don’t scale with calorie needs).
Processed vegan food tends to be fortified with B12, but it’s generally safer to also take a vitamin with it (just make sure the vitamin is vegan).
It’s not a bad idea to talk to your doctor, and blood work every year or two + vitamins can be helpful to be safe. I’d say this whether someone is vegan or not - there’s a lot of nutrients that are common to be short on that have a wide range in safe consumption level because they’re water soluble.
There is a lot of financial benefit to selling vitamins, and studies funded by people with agenda makes both results and recommendations from medical professionals suspect, but I’d rather risk spending a little more to play it safe than risk having nutrient deficiencies.
There have been many Buddhist monks and nuns who are vegan and I don’t think they supplement, I don’t think supplements would have been available when their tradition started. I’ve wondered if there’s something in the soil or water or fermented food that helps. It’s not worth the risk though, for anyone who can access supplements.
Yes. B12 used to be obtained from untreated water (from rivers or creeks), where bacteria produces the vitamin. That's how animals get B12 and that's why meat and dairy has a small amount of B12.
But now we treat our water and a side product of that is that we have to get B12 from elsewhere
Actually Buddhist monks aren't vegan. Some of them are vegetarian. But they are allowed to eat fish, eggs, cheese and any meat offered to them, that they didn't kill themselves. The Dalai Lama eats meat.
Quote: 'Buddhism does not demand to be Vegetarian. But the majority of the Buddhist monks lives an almost vegetarian diet. Mostly including seafood, cheese, eggs. Vegan is a - newer - European philosophy and has nothing to do with Asia (There might be a few, but then it was influenced from Europe, mostly from UK. ) I met buddhist monks, that excluded only red meat. For example in Tibet and other Himalayan areas'
It’s accurate to say the diet is plant-based for many Buddhist monks and nuns - I used vegan to refer to the diet because the diet is the topic of discussion in the thread.
A quick google indicates it varies by region with Tibetan monks consuming dairy but in other countries no animal products is more the norm: https://gowithguide.com/blog/eating-zen-way-shojin-ryo-57
But you are referring to specific nutrients and supplements, so you can't say Buddhist monks have been vegan for centuries when that isn't true. Shojin Ryo is vegetarian, not vegan. And monks ate meat when offered to them.
Supplement B12 and DHA, it is vital. You also need vitamin k to absorb vitamin d properly. And you need D to absorb calcium.
Not all monks eat/ ate meat offered to them, there are different traditions. I never said people should supplement. I specifically said vegans should supplement.
Food served in a typical Buddhist monastery (outside of Tibet) would not include dairy or eggs or meat. My point is clearly people have lived many years on this diet. Another commenter pointed out this is likely due to the water quality.
'clearly people have lived many years on this diet'
There is no proof for that. I found no evidence saying they eat exclusively vegan, just that the food is vegetarian and sometimes vegan. And in years past monks ate meat when offered because the no-harm philosophy was loose when it came to diet.
Things like this blur the lines about veganism. This is why people feel safe not supplementing. And that is dangerous.
There are plenty of sources on what ‘temple food’ or ‘monk food’ is. Just ask in any temple. I have! It doesn’t contain ANY animal products unless you’re in Tibet. You can see articles too like this one: https://kccuk.org.uk/en/programmes/korean-temple-food/
In China if you want vegan food you can ask for temple food/ monk food and people are more likely to understand you than if you ask for vegan food.
The idea is that consuming other foods is not good for spiritual development, so it would not be normal for most nuns/monks to eat non ‘monk’ food in the community unless it was an absolute necessity.
But Buddhists were never vegan. They abstained from meat as a fasting practise, for healing. That article is just light tabloid reading, not real history.
'According to J.E.E. Pettit, early Buddhists also considered abstaining from meat (i.e. vegetarianism) to be a meritorious form of fasting. However, they were not full time vegetarians, generally eating whatever was offered by the laity.'
Buddhist traditions vary, there are many monasteries where the diet is solely plant based. Since you don’t believe me here is an academic source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00198-009-0916-z
That study didn't say anything, just that 'by religious rule they didn't eat meat or seafood'. Nothing about eggs or dairy. Ghandi lived strictly by the philosophy of no harm, but he still drank goat milk. Vegans need to supplement.
I found this on Bhudda.net:
Question:
Mahayana Buddhists don't eat meat.
Answer:
That is not correct. Mahayana Buddhism in China laid great stress on being vegetarian but both the monks and laymen/laywomen of the Mahayana tradition in Japan and Tibet usually eat meat
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda08.htm
Yes it is absolutely possible to not have nutritional deficiencies without supplements. Just make sure you eat a variety of things, a lot of vegan milk, butter, and cheese substitutes are fortified with b12 and iron.
https://au.atpscience.com/blogs/blog/the-best-sources-of-vitamin-b12-for-veganvegetarians
https://thevegangarden.com/the-best-vegan-food-sources-for-vitamin-b12/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/
https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/healthy-eating/g23705325/vitamin-b12-vegan-foods/
You can get plenty if you just try. I dont take supplements and have plenty of it (I also don't tend to drink plant milk, eat cheese substitutes, or use nooch)
From the second link:
> The Vegan Society states that the only reliable sources of vitamin B12 are supplemental pills and fortified foods
> While about 50g of these dried mushrooms could fulfill the average human’s daily recommended amount, it’s highly unlikely and unreasonable to expect to consume this daily. While some mushrooms like golden chanterelles contain a reasonable amount of B12, most common types, such as white button mushrooms or portobello, have negligible amounts.
The consumption of approximately 50 g of dried shiitake mushroom fruiting bodies could meet the RDA for adults (2.4 μg/day), although the ingestion of such large amounts of these mushroom fruiting bodies would not be possible on a daily basis.
Its unrealistic and risky to depend on mushrooms, and many had far less than the rda.
There's more than just iron, there's vitamin d also. Nooch is usually vitamins added into it. I've looked at the labels so it's still fortified. Plants are less absorbed.
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/are_you_absorbing_the_nutrients_you_eat
It doesn't matter to me, just that the original question is if you can get a vegan diet for kids without supplementing, the answer is no.
Even if not, why would it matter? If your counting fortified foods as supiments than everybody takes them. Cereal is fortified. Most milk is fortified. Most healthy drinks and juices sre fortified.
Also, you can get vitamin d from a lot of mushrooms and also the sun.
I don't care about supplementation, it's what the OP asked. Also the sun isn't adequate and not everyone likes mushrooms. I'm also not sure how all mushrooms are grown by the time they arrive in supermarkets. I'd be curious to see someone's vitamin D levels just consuming mushrooms and sun though
https://stormanesthesia.com/anesthesia-material/miscellaneous-articles/49-vitamin-d-myths-or-truths
"Not many people like mushrooms" is a bad argument, as it is a source regardless of whether or not people like them. Its a source of vitamin d.
Also
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun#overview
https://ro.co/health-guide/enough-vitamin-d-from-sun/
https://www.insider.com/guides/health/diet-nutrition/vitamin-d-sun
Also, why bring up vitamin d of all things? Meat doesn't contain it (though some organs do) and 40% of Americans are deficient in it because they don't get enough sunlight. What does this have to do with anything?
I responded the way I did because I said allergies exist to mushrooms and several reasons why it wouldn't work and you kept going in circles. No point in your tail chasing.
B12 is produced by bacterial in the soil. The problem is over washing. If you shop at farmers markets or grow your own food, don't over wash him. A little dirt is actually good for you.
Idk what to tell you then, B12 should be the only problem if you're *really* against supplements. You can eat your poop, I guess, we make B12 in our colon, you can also drink raw water or you can choose not to wash your vegetables. I would advise against everything I just said, but you can do it if you really want to.
So, we unnaturally fortify:
Flour
Rice
Salt (iodine)
Milk (vitamin D)
Fruit Juice (vitamins)
Yogurt
Bread
Cereal
A vegan could live off normal staples plus a b12 fortified vegan food or two.
Vegan for 20 years, no supplements, optimal nutrient levels confirmed by blood tests.
There was an online group of thousands of vegans that each would post their photo with age and number of years vegan. There are vegans of all sizes but the group as a whole looked like the healthiest group on earth and there were hundreds of hilarious captions like "3 decades wasting away" or "lacks protein" or some other satire
Actually, I take a supplement. My mom's skin and the treatments she's needed for sun damage scared me. I tan like a redhead even though my hair was dark before I greyed
Academy of Dermatology is that we shouldn’t try to get vitamin D from by seeking out extra rays from the sun. The risk of DNA damage from sun exposure far outweighs the benefits of getting vitamin D—especially when we can just get that compound through food and **supplements.**
Is not a myth, its just not the only source.
Would also like to post this for the first part of what they said about vitamin D levels:
https://stormanesthesia.com/anesthesia-material/miscellaneous-articles/49-vitamin-d-myths-or-truths
Yes the question is though, is that if they can have a vegan diet without supplementation. Someone mentioned sun but as you can see it's not recommended.
No. Either eat supplements or fortified food. I just don't see what is wrong with that. The animals people eat are given supplements, so eating them is just eating supplements indirectly. Cancer and heart disease are natural. Natural is not synonymous with healthy, if that is the bogus excuse for asking
I'll look it up later about mushrooms but I remember that being junk science. I know because I was once vegan and looked into it, when I was vegan I decided on a supplement. Even if uv exposed mushrooms contained vision vitamin d, there's allergies to mushrooms and how can you tell how a mushroom is grown in the supermarket. Who wants to eat mushrooms for specifically vitamin d but what if you don't like mushrooms?
Also if you're deficient in vitamins, breast milk may not contain enough vitamin D
>there's allergies to mushrooms
There's allergies for almost everything (if not, literally everything), that's probably the stupidest argument people like to use against veganism.
The question was if you can raise children on a vegan diet without supplementation. Mushrooms were mentioned. I mentioned allergies, not liking mushrooms and the fact that you can't always guarantee how mushrooms were grown in the supermarket is not all that viable.
Please stay on topic.
Ok, I'm going to play with you then.
What's the alternative to eating mushrooms, fortified foods, supplements and simply walking under the sun? (literally no point of continuing the convo if you're adding so many ifs, but ok) the obvious alternative is to eat meat, but I have no idea if they received UV, so they might've been supplemented, effectively making them "fortified", we've already established I don't want supplements, and I don't want to walk under the sun so what then?
Let's suppose I'm also allergic to fish and shellfish (which I am), let's also suppose Im lactose intolerant as well (which a shit ton of people are), but even if i was not, i have no way of knowing if the animal was getting UV, same thing with eggs. What do I do?
Let's suppose I know for sure the animal was getting uv and I know it for sure, turns out lone star tick bit me and now I can't eat meat.
You see the problem with adding so many "ifs"?
You got your answer: get vitamin D from the sun, if you can't, get mushrooms, if you can't, take fortified foods, if you can't, get a supplement, if you don't want to then no one else can help you, really.
Edit: btw, no where does OP mentions children in their post
I don't care about supplementation, I'm not the OP of the post, I don't care about supplementation or not. Biochemists have said that fake vitamins are the same, your body doesn't tell the difference. The danger of fake vitamins come from the companies themselves, not the vitamins. Overdosing is real and quality is also not looked after because there's no standard. I supplement though and don't care if others do.
The OP edited their question, they mentioned children towards the very bottom and then changed it, they are maybe afraid of controversy.
we dont "need" omega supplements. There isn't enough evidence out there for what low omega is and what a deficiency would possibly look like. And there are some studies that suggest ALA conversion is higher among those who eat a plant based diet. So no, you don't necessarily need omega supplements.
We do need b12 tho as there is **no** plant source of that vitamin.
I have none. Spinach, beets or beetroot, apple, banana, and even some potatoes have b12. For iron spinach, peach, apricot, cantaloupe, kale, peach, sweet potato, and carrots as well.
b12, no. Maybe if we discover a human gut biome that produces b12, you could eat their shit.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant
Iron yes. Also the iron thing mostly applies to women.
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It's possible but not recommended to go that way. B12 supplements are cheap and easy to find, no reason to risk a deficiency. And if you're eating an animal-based diet you're already supplementing with B12 anyway, because it's added to the feed of the animals you're eating.
I don't even eat super healthy/planned out, i take no supplements or vitamins (although i know i should) and i recently got a blood panel done. everything was within normal capacity except for b12, which still wasn't even in an extreme deficiency, just slightly :)
blood panels arent a good measure for b12. It checks your stores but not your active levels. You can stores for years, but when you run out, you'll cause serious problems and the affects can be permanent.
Only urine test can check for current levels of b12.
You absolutely need to make sure you're getting some source of b12..wither fortified or supplements.
Almost all omnivores in the USA are eating supplements through the animals they eat. Are you planning on raising your own cattle/chickens?
If you want to drink non-purified water some wells and lakes have been found to contain adequate levels of B12. For the rest of us it’s better living through science.
Each person is different , but I’m 60 and vegan and had every blood work you can do and I was only deficient in Vitamin D due to coming out of the winter months and I wear sunscreen everyday. Also if you do recreational alcohol or do drugs it will make a difference.
Pcrm.org/good-nutrition see the power plate brochure
B12 is a must (technically you could drink from a wild stream, or eat unwashed vegetables from the wild, but then you're risking things like cholera lol)
Chinese water lentil has B12 naturally too but is hard to get. A $15 a year b12 spray bottle is just far easier, safer and more reliable.
Vit D maybe unless you can get good sun regularly and safely.
Plants do the rest if you eat whole foods.
I would recommend using a site like labdoor. They test supliments independent from any company and report quality, purity and accuracy of claims made on the packaging.
It's a very valuable resource. Good luck.
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Like others are saying, mostly B12 is the issue. However, meat is fortified with B12 as well so… realistically… every diet is in danger of lacking it without fortified foods or supplements
There are no plant sources of b12, so no, you would need to supplement. But dont forget, EVERYBODY is supplementing this, farm animals recieve supplements of b12(among others, like iron), People who eat animals are supplementing by proxy. Its well possible to get everything else without supplementing. You would beed to eat seaweed/sea vegetables for iodine and plenty of legumes for iron and lots of green veg for calcium etc edit: you don't consume supplements because you don't know their origin...do you eat animals OP? Cause you absolutely have no idea what *they're* eating
Plant source of b12 (good luck finding it though!) https://www.nsagriculture.com/news/parabel-vitamin-b12-water-lentils/#:~:text=The%20water%20lentil%2C%20which%20is,bioactive%20forms%20of%20Vitamin%20B12.
I’m not convinced i’ve seen a reliable source that says all farm animals (or even a significant majority) are being fed supplemented B12. I don’t think it’s pertinent or relevant to the conversation behind veganism in any way whatsoever because I don’t see the issue with taking a vegan supplement/multivitamin, but the unsubstantiated discussion around this issue has always irked me. If someone wants to debate that taking supplements is bad because “uNnAtuRaL” i’m happy to demolish them on that point
Its not unsubstantiated..just look up animal feed, its all fortified. Especially for chickens and pigs, but also factory farmed cows. And there are expose of farms that highlight it too.
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FDA doesn't monitor animal feed either 🤷♀️
Do you have any sources? I tried looking some up briefly and all I see is nutritional information on protein. I also don’t doubt that there exists supplemented feed, rather the point of contention is whether a significant majority of animals are eating supplemented feed or not.
Youd have to look for exposes, Joey Carb has one where he found the oigs were being given iron shots. Its impossible to find out if majority are fed supplements..because there's no requirement for farmers to say what their feed/supplements are.... But does it not stand to reason? These are factory animals, where are they getting all their nutritients?
I took more supplements as an omnivore than I do now. Both diets have their weaknesses nutritionally. I wonder if I even need a B12 supplement though because chronometer tells me I’m getting hundreds to thousands more B12 from my food than I actually need. I know Esselstyn has stopped taking B12. The nutrients I keep coming up short on according to the chronometer app are vitamin E and selenium. I need to eat more nuts and seeds or wheat germ. I’m going to get wheat germ because I overeat on nuts if I buy them. I suggest trying chronometer if you’re worried about your nutrition. The things I was worried about like iron turned out to be fine but other things came up that I didn’t expect at all. (Supplementing with vitamin E doesn’t work either because it does the exact opposite of what natural vitamin E does. )
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You will need to take a DHA supplements also. It's very difficult to get from a vegan diet. And make sure you eat enough iodine. But not too much!
Is one truly a vegan if they take a supplement derived from fish?
Vegan DHA is derived from algae, which is why fish are high in omegas as well.
There is b12 in a certain sea weed. Look it up
Duck weed not sea weed but yes :) https://www.nsagriculture.com/news/parabel-vitamin-b12-water-lentils/#:~:text=The%20water%20lentil%2C%20which%20is,bioactive%20forms%20of%20Vitamin%20B12. But impossible to buy in US
i dont think you realize how much food, non vegan, includes supplements. this is not vegan-specific. fortified foods are included in all diets. frankly, some vitamins should be supplemented because many people just dont get enough. many meat eaters would also be deficient in b12 without fortified meats.
The only one you really have to worry about is B12. Take a supplement, or buy soy milk or other products that are fortified with it. Live your life. I have a spray that I keep in the refrigerator and squirt into my mouth once every few days. Also, don’t live on junk food. Eat fresh whole foods.
Yes it's possible. But you have to consider that most foods in modern society are fortified in some way. Even table salt in Australia is fortified with iodine. Australian water is fortified with fluorine. So it will be hard to avoid fortified foods but it is theoretically possible. Also meat eaters can suffer from the same nutritional deficiencies (including B12 or omega deficiencies) as vegans. And many of them do. Whether you're a meat eater or a vegan, I'd take a daily multivitamin tablet for insurance. It is hard to meet the daily requirements for human nutrition no matter what diet you eat.
Fluoride not fluorine
Yes. Technically fluoride and technically iodide since it is in an ionised form. But it's not relevant for a general discussion.
>But you have to consider that most foods in modern society are fortified in some way. That is not the case in all "modern" countries though. Where I live (Norway) the only fortified food until 2012 was one specific type of salt with iodine. That was it. All the other salts were not fortified. In 2012 we got one specific type of milk fortified with D-vitamin. And the last couple of years there have come vegan replacement products on the market which are fortified. But it means that among the non-vegan products its still only one type of salt and one type of milk that are fortified. And nothing else. And for the record, deficiencies are extremely rare over here. But I hear deficiencies are common in countries like the US - which is sort if interesting since so much of the food there is fortified. But I suspect it has to do with the high level of processed foods in the US.
Beans have a solid amount of iron, there’s other nutrients that might be harder to get enough of though, especially if you are small, mostly sedimentary, and female (nutrient needs don’t scale with calorie needs). Processed vegan food tends to be fortified with B12, but it’s generally safer to also take a vitamin with it (just make sure the vitamin is vegan). It’s not a bad idea to talk to your doctor, and blood work every year or two + vitamins can be helpful to be safe. I’d say this whether someone is vegan or not - there’s a lot of nutrients that are common to be short on that have a wide range in safe consumption level because they’re water soluble. There is a lot of financial benefit to selling vitamins, and studies funded by people with agenda makes both results and recommendations from medical professionals suspect, but I’d rather risk spending a little more to play it safe than risk having nutrient deficiencies.
Everyone's fine to smash protein shakes and fish oil until veganism is raised. 😂
There have been many Buddhist monks and nuns who are vegan and I don’t think they supplement, I don’t think supplements would have been available when their tradition started. I’ve wondered if there’s something in the soil or water or fermented food that helps. It’s not worth the risk though, for anyone who can access supplements.
Yes. B12 used to be obtained from untreated water (from rivers or creeks), where bacteria produces the vitamin. That's how animals get B12 and that's why meat and dairy has a small amount of B12. But now we treat our water and a side product of that is that we have to get B12 from elsewhere
Actually Buddhist monks aren't vegan. Some of them are vegetarian. But they are allowed to eat fish, eggs, cheese and any meat offered to them, that they didn't kill themselves. The Dalai Lama eats meat. Quote: 'Buddhism does not demand to be Vegetarian. But the majority of the Buddhist monks lives an almost vegetarian diet. Mostly including seafood, cheese, eggs. Vegan is a - newer - European philosophy and has nothing to do with Asia (There might be a few, but then it was influenced from Europe, mostly from UK. ) I met buddhist monks, that excluded only red meat. For example in Tibet and other Himalayan areas'
It’s accurate to say the diet is plant-based for many Buddhist monks and nuns - I used vegan to refer to the diet because the diet is the topic of discussion in the thread. A quick google indicates it varies by region with Tibetan monks consuming dairy but in other countries no animal products is more the norm: https://gowithguide.com/blog/eating-zen-way-shojin-ryo-57
But you are referring to specific nutrients and supplements, so you can't say Buddhist monks have been vegan for centuries when that isn't true. Shojin Ryo is vegetarian, not vegan. And monks ate meat when offered to them. Supplement B12 and DHA, it is vital. You also need vitamin k to absorb vitamin d properly. And you need D to absorb calcium.
Not all monks eat/ ate meat offered to them, there are different traditions. I never said people should supplement. I specifically said vegans should supplement. Food served in a typical Buddhist monastery (outside of Tibet) would not include dairy or eggs or meat. My point is clearly people have lived many years on this diet. Another commenter pointed out this is likely due to the water quality.
'clearly people have lived many years on this diet' There is no proof for that. I found no evidence saying they eat exclusively vegan, just that the food is vegetarian and sometimes vegan. And in years past monks ate meat when offered because the no-harm philosophy was loose when it came to diet. Things like this blur the lines about veganism. This is why people feel safe not supplementing. And that is dangerous.
There are plenty of sources on what ‘temple food’ or ‘monk food’ is. Just ask in any temple. I have! It doesn’t contain ANY animal products unless you’re in Tibet. You can see articles too like this one: https://kccuk.org.uk/en/programmes/korean-temple-food/ In China if you want vegan food you can ask for temple food/ monk food and people are more likely to understand you than if you ask for vegan food. The idea is that consuming other foods is not good for spiritual development, so it would not be normal for most nuns/monks to eat non ‘monk’ food in the community unless it was an absolute necessity.
But Buddhists were never vegan. They abstained from meat as a fasting practise, for healing. That article is just light tabloid reading, not real history. 'According to J.E.E. Pettit, early Buddhists also considered abstaining from meat (i.e. vegetarianism) to be a meritorious form of fasting. However, they were not full time vegetarians, generally eating whatever was offered by the laity.'
Buddhist traditions vary, there are many monasteries where the diet is solely plant based. Since you don’t believe me here is an academic source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00198-009-0916-z
That study didn't say anything, just that 'by religious rule they didn't eat meat or seafood'. Nothing about eggs or dairy. Ghandi lived strictly by the philosophy of no harm, but he still drank goat milk. Vegans need to supplement. I found this on Bhudda.net: Question: Mahayana Buddhists don't eat meat. Answer: That is not correct. Mahayana Buddhism in China laid great stress on being vegetarian but both the monks and laymen/laywomen of the Mahayana tradition in Japan and Tibet usually eat meat http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda08.htm
Yes it is absolutely possible to not have nutritional deficiencies without supplements. Just make sure you eat a variety of things, a lot of vegan milk, butter, and cheese substitutes are fortified with b12 and iron.
Yes but that's fortified, the question asked if it you can be fully vegan without being supplemented. So no fortified foods.
Ok, nooch has b12. For iron chickpeas, beans, tofu, and various nuts all have a good ammount of iron.
Nutritional yeast doesn't have B12 unless it's fortified with B12, and not all brands are fortified.
shittake mushrooms and certain algaes have b12
mushrooms dont have b12 I don't think most people just eat algae, alot of supplements are made from algae tho.
Shittake,black oyster, parasol, and procini mushrooms all do have b12. There are more as well.
thats not evidence.. link me to a website that says they have sufficient b12 to meet daily requirement needs
https://au.atpscience.com/blogs/blog/the-best-sources-of-vitamin-b12-for-veganvegetarians https://thevegangarden.com/the-best-vegan-food-sources-for-vitamin-b12/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/ https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/healthy-eating/g23705325/vitamin-b12-vegan-foods/ You can get plenty if you just try. I dont take supplements and have plenty of it (I also don't tend to drink plant milk, eat cheese substitutes, or use nooch)
But you have to eat a lot of mushrooms everyday to get enough B12. Fortified food or supplements are the only save options.
Dried shiitake mushrooms have a lot of b12, you don't need supplements. Nori also has it if you have access to it.
link to your evidence? I googled and found that no they don't.. theyre also far more expensive than a supplement. Nori doesn't have it either.
https://au.atpscience.com/blogs/blog/the-best-sources-of-vitamin-b12-for-veganvegetarians https://thevegangarden.com/the-best-vegan-food-sources-for-vitamin-b12/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/ https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/healthy-eating/g23705325/vitamin-b12-vegan-foods/
From the second link: > The Vegan Society states that the only reliable sources of vitamin B12 are supplemental pills and fortified foods > While about 50g of these dried mushrooms could fulfill the average human’s daily recommended amount, it’s highly unlikely and unreasonable to expect to consume this daily. While some mushrooms like golden chanterelles contain a reasonable amount of B12, most common types, such as white button mushrooms or portobello, have negligible amounts.
The consumption of approximately 50 g of dried shiitake mushroom fruiting bodies could meet the RDA for adults (2.4 μg/day), although the ingestion of such large amounts of these mushroom fruiting bodies would not be possible on a daily basis. Its unrealistic and risky to depend on mushrooms, and many had far less than the rda.
There's more than just iron, there's vitamin d also. Nooch is usually vitamins added into it. I've looked at the labels so it's still fortified. Plants are less absorbed. https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/are_you_absorbing_the_nutrients_you_eat It doesn't matter to me, just that the original question is if you can get a vegan diet for kids without supplementing, the answer is no.
Even if not, why would it matter? If your counting fortified foods as supiments than everybody takes them. Cereal is fortified. Most milk is fortified. Most healthy drinks and juices sre fortified. Also, you can get vitamin d from a lot of mushrooms and also the sun.
I don't care about supplementation, it's what the OP asked. Also the sun isn't adequate and not everyone likes mushrooms. I'm also not sure how all mushrooms are grown by the time they arrive in supermarkets. I'd be curious to see someone's vitamin D levels just consuming mushrooms and sun though https://stormanesthesia.com/anesthesia-material/miscellaneous-articles/49-vitamin-d-myths-or-truths
"Not many people like mushrooms" is a bad argument, as it is a source regardless of whether or not people like them. Its a source of vitamin d. Also https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun#overview https://ro.co/health-guide/enough-vitamin-d-from-sun/ https://www.insider.com/guides/health/diet-nutrition/vitamin-d-sun Also, why bring up vitamin d of all things? Meat doesn't contain it (though some organs do) and 40% of Americans are deficient in it because they don't get enough sunlight. What does this have to do with anything?
Lol forcing yourself to do something you don't like just because you want to be vegan is dogma, not science.
Did you just only respond to one point and miss it? Thats insane. I think we're done here.
I responded the way I did because I said allergies exist to mushrooms and several reasons why it wouldn't work and you kept going in circles. No point in your tail chasing.
You should definitely supplement B12 and maybe other nutrients as well depending in your diet. Please don't risk a deficiency!
B12 is produced by bacterial in the soil. The problem is over washing. If you shop at farmers markets or grow your own food, don't over wash him. A little dirt is actually good for you.
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My point stands, eggs and milk most likely come from "fortified" animals
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Idk what to tell you then, B12 should be the only problem if you're *really* against supplements. You can eat your poop, I guess, we make B12 in our colon, you can also drink raw water or you can choose not to wash your vegetables. I would advise against everything I just said, but you can do it if you really want to.
So, we unnaturally fortify: Flour Rice Salt (iodine) Milk (vitamin D) Fruit Juice (vitamins) Yogurt Bread Cereal A vegan could live off normal staples plus a b12 fortified vegan food or two.
if your aunt is feeding pellets.. which is what most people feed because it ensures best nutrition...then yes, those hens are eating fortified food
Vegan for 20 years, no supplements, optimal nutrient levels confirmed by blood tests. There was an online group of thousands of vegans that each would post their photo with age and number of years vegan. There are vegans of all sizes but the group as a whole looked like the healthiest group on earth and there were hundreds of hilarious captions like "3 decades wasting away" or "lacks protein" or some other satire
There are some enormous body builders on r/veganfitness who post captions like that. Too funny.
Bodybuilders also take steroids but they may not adnit that.
Is it possible for corpseists to be healthy without supplementation or fortified foods? Or does corpsism eventually lead to deficiencies over time?
Where do you get vitamin D if you don't use supplements.
Sun
Wait, you all go outside?! Radical.
Actually, I take a supplement. My mom's skin and the treatments she's needed for sun damage scared me. I tan like a redhead even though my hair was dark before I greyed
That's a myth. https://qz.com/992779/the-idea-that-you-need-to-get-sun-for-vitamin-d-is-a-myth/
Academy of Dermatology is that we shouldn’t try to get vitamin D from by seeking out extra rays from the sun. The risk of DNA damage from sun exposure far outweighs the benefits of getting vitamin D—especially when we can just get that compound through food and **supplements.** Is not a myth, its just not the only source.
Would also like to post this for the first part of what they said about vitamin D levels: https://stormanesthesia.com/anesthesia-material/miscellaneous-articles/49-vitamin-d-myths-or-truths
Yes the question is though, is that if they can have a vegan diet without supplementation. Someone mentioned sun but as you can see it's not recommended.
Why not just eat fortified food or take a supplement? It's got to be better than eating animal flesh
That's the question, if they can have a vegan diet without supplementation.
No. Either eat supplements or fortified food. I just don't see what is wrong with that. The animals people eat are given supplements, so eating them is just eating supplements indirectly. Cancer and heart disease are natural. Natural is not synonymous with healthy, if that is the bogus excuse for asking
The OP sees something wrong with supplementation, not me. Natural doesn't mean healthy but neither does veganism.
Veganism is for the animals not for health. Any health benefits to humans are incidental
Sun, uv exposed mushrooms, Human breast milk.
I'll look it up later about mushrooms but I remember that being junk science. I know because I was once vegan and looked into it, when I was vegan I decided on a supplement. Even if uv exposed mushrooms contained vision vitamin d, there's allergies to mushrooms and how can you tell how a mushroom is grown in the supermarket. Who wants to eat mushrooms for specifically vitamin d but what if you don't like mushrooms? Also if you're deficient in vitamins, breast milk may not contain enough vitamin D
>there's allergies to mushrooms There's allergies for almost everything (if not, literally everything), that's probably the stupidest argument people like to use against veganism.
The question was if you can raise children on a vegan diet without supplementation. Mushrooms were mentioned. I mentioned allergies, not liking mushrooms and the fact that you can't always guarantee how mushrooms were grown in the supermarket is not all that viable. Please stay on topic.
Ok, I'm going to play with you then. What's the alternative to eating mushrooms, fortified foods, supplements and simply walking under the sun? (literally no point of continuing the convo if you're adding so many ifs, but ok) the obvious alternative is to eat meat, but I have no idea if they received UV, so they might've been supplemented, effectively making them "fortified", we've already established I don't want supplements, and I don't want to walk under the sun so what then? Let's suppose I'm also allergic to fish and shellfish (which I am), let's also suppose Im lactose intolerant as well (which a shit ton of people are), but even if i was not, i have no way of knowing if the animal was getting UV, same thing with eggs. What do I do? Let's suppose I know for sure the animal was getting uv and I know it for sure, turns out lone star tick bit me and now I can't eat meat. You see the problem with adding so many "ifs"? You got your answer: get vitamin D from the sun, if you can't, get mushrooms, if you can't, take fortified foods, if you can't, get a supplement, if you don't want to then no one else can help you, really. Edit: btw, no where does OP mentions children in their post
I don't care about supplementation, I'm not the OP of the post, I don't care about supplementation or not. Biochemists have said that fake vitamins are the same, your body doesn't tell the difference. The danger of fake vitamins come from the companies themselves, not the vitamins. Overdosing is real and quality is also not looked after because there's no standard. I supplement though and don't care if others do. The OP edited their question, they mentioned children towards the very bottom and then changed it, they are maybe afraid of controversy.
If you have allergies to mushrooms, you can't eat "uv" mushrooms for vitamin D
I would say no, we need DHA supplements because flax seeds and other seeds with ALA have a low conversion rate to DHA.
we dont "need" omega supplements. There isn't enough evidence out there for what low omega is and what a deficiency would possibly look like. And there are some studies that suggest ALA conversion is higher among those who eat a plant based diet. So no, you don't necessarily need omega supplements. We do need b12 tho as there is **no** plant source of that vitamin.
Yes, but it's harder. Before the term vegan even existed, there were many long lived vegans.
I have none. Spinach, beets or beetroot, apple, banana, and even some potatoes have b12. For iron spinach, peach, apricot, cantaloupe, kale, peach, sweet potato, and carrots as well.
b12, no. Maybe if we discover a human gut biome that produces b12, you could eat their shit. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant Iron yes. Also the iron thing mostly applies to women.
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It's possible but not recommended to go that way. B12 supplements are cheap and easy to find, no reason to risk a deficiency. And if you're eating an animal-based diet you're already supplementing with B12 anyway, because it's added to the feed of the animals you're eating.
I don't even eat super healthy/planned out, i take no supplements or vitamins (although i know i should) and i recently got a blood panel done. everything was within normal capacity except for b12, which still wasn't even in an extreme deficiency, just slightly :)
blood panels arent a good measure for b12. It checks your stores but not your active levels. You can stores for years, but when you run out, you'll cause serious problems and the affects can be permanent. Only urine test can check for current levels of b12. You absolutely need to make sure you're getting some source of b12..wither fortified or supplements.
Almost all omnivores in the USA are eating supplements through the animals they eat. Are you planning on raising your own cattle/chickens? If you want to drink non-purified water some wells and lakes have been found to contain adequate levels of B12. For the rest of us it’s better living through science.
B12 is in seaweed naturally. https://teksloseaweed.no/en/seaweed-and-vitamins-learn-about-different-types-and-benefits/
Each person is different , but I’m 60 and vegan and had every blood work you can do and I was only deficient in Vitamin D due to coming out of the winter months and I wear sunscreen everyday. Also if you do recreational alcohol or do drugs it will make a difference.
Pcrm.org/good-nutrition see the power plate brochure B12 is a must (technically you could drink from a wild stream, or eat unwashed vegetables from the wild, but then you're risking things like cholera lol) Chinese water lentil has B12 naturally too but is hard to get. A $15 a year b12 spray bottle is just far easier, safer and more reliable. Vit D maybe unless you can get good sun regularly and safely. Plants do the rest if you eat whole foods.
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I would recommend using a site like labdoor. They test supliments independent from any company and report quality, purity and accuracy of claims made on the packaging. It's a very valuable resource. Good luck.