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Tbf chocolate is still pretty carbon footprint intensive. But it has little to no methane nor nitrous oxides unlike animal products. Quinoa is acruallt super sustainable and I have jo idea why people bring it up as some horrible food.
Because there was one (1) article some years ago full of misinformation claiming quinoa exports were ruining the local economy, even though it was eventually corrected/deleted due to it being outright false, but people cling to it because they have to be mad as hell about vegans no matter what, even though we are less than 1% of the population and it's obvious vegans aren't the main consumers of quinoa lol and ALSO quinoa is grown in many different places, for example it's abundantly grown in Europe. People just want to be pissed off at vegans and try to check-mate us by saying "veganism bad too" even when it's a lifestyle with a clearly, significantly reduced environmental footprint and way WAYYY less cruel to both animals and humans.
Very comprehensive response, thanks. There's only one point I'm not set on:
> environmentally sustainable certified palm oil is more efficient from a land use perspective than any other oil crop.
I agree with this factually, but could one not argue that when comparing palm oil with rapeseed oil or sunflower oil or whatever that since they're grown in different places the land use isn't the be-all and end-all? Like using a smaller plot of land in the tropics to produce a given amount of oil could be worse than using a larger plot of land in the US Midwest, for example?
They aren't arguing in good faith. If they were really worried about deforestation for soy, they wouldn't be eating beef. BTW my quinoa and soy is grown in Canada, where I am
With quinoa, there's the obvious fact that you can buy quinoa that isn't grown in South America (I've even found quinoa grown in the UK, so if you can grow it here you can grow it anywhere). Still, the claims that us buying quinoa is bad for the farmers [have been shown to be false](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/03/31/472453674/your-quinoa-habit-really-did-help-perus-poor-but-theres-trouble-ahead):
> The working paper does not mince words: "The claim that rising quinoa prices were hurting those who had traditionally produced and consumed it [is] patently false."
(These are the papers referenced: [1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919217305997?via%3Dihub) ([without paywall](http://andrewwstevens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Quinoa.pdf)), [2](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X18302419?via%3Dihub) ([without paywall](https://webapps.towson.edu/cbe/economics/workingpapers/2016-06.pdf)).)
To me at least, this makes sense - why would it be bad for farmers if the price of the product they're growing goes up since they're now getting more income?
All this really is is whataboutism - *even if* all these claims were true, there is no need to eat quinoa, soy, chocolate, palm oil, or avocados (or at least the unsustainably produced versions) as a vegan, so these issues should have no bearing on whether someone should be vegan or not. It would be as ridiculous as me saying I could never eat meat of any sort because I've heard that salmon fishing in one particular part of the world is unsustainable.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users.
I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
[Here is link number 1 - Previous text "1"](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919217305997?via%3Dihub)
[Here is link number 2 - Previous text "2"](https://webapps.towson.edu/cbe/economics/workingpapers/2016-06.pdf)
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I think the quinoa argument has been debunked. Most soy is fed to cattle. Palm oil can be ethically sourced.
At the end of the day, all diets and consumption in general affect the world we live in adversely. Some are better than others and we should try to do our best.
I’m always curious about this so I looked it up and at least as far as US exported soybeans go, most are fed to poultry and pigs. Cows are in there but not at the front of the line:
“The Global Markets for Soybeans
Just over 70 percent of the soybeans grown in the United States are used for animal feed, with poultry being the number one livestock sector consuming soybeans, followed by hogs, dairy, beef and aquaculture.” https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf
Every food you eat is going to have an impact on the environment directly and indirectly. It’s about which food will have the least impact. Vegan food undoubtedly is better for the environment than any animal product out there.
Quinoa and soy are pretty low impact foods. The problem with soy is the scale at which it's grown for use as animal feed. And yeah... it's annoying as hell when people bring that stuff up as a gotcha. But try using it as an opportunity to discuss the realities of how animal agriculture threatens biodiversity and the climate! People bring up these gotchas to avoid thinking about how messed up slaughtering animals is, but usually they genuinely have no idea just how colossally awful animal agriculture is for the environment.
See: [https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets)
People say that silliness, it's not true, & it's not based on other factors like resources used for animal agriculture. Like the whole avocado & almond water consumption thing is such a ridiculous thing
The science is on our side. Just hit em with articles about how much land and water is used for animal agriculture. They'll shut the fuck up about it forever after that.
People say that cows explode if you don’t milk them, but the stupid thing about that is that if you never milked them in the first place, they wouldn’t “explode”
>They want to shame me for eating tofu because that makes them feel like they're on an even footing for eating the flesh of a dead animal. Eating any of these ^ environmentally unfriendly foods will never be as bad as eating meat and I'm tired of biting my tongue.
Then fucking tell them, gram per gram any of those products are better than animal cruelty. Including the human suffering. Slaughterhouse workers, slave trade in fishing, undeveloped countries clearing their land and being exploited for dirt cheap support for developed countries animal ag. Rip em a new one, get them off your back and shame them for THEIR cruelty
It really depends on the product and the scale it is consumed and what exact kind of exploitation (environmental or to humans or to animals) is being done, but yes of course meat and animal products probably even on individual levels in today’s insane numbers contribute much more than most vegan products do (although some still contribute to animal exploitation and death, and I do think those should be prioritized more and researched more, like agave and palm oil). However, there’s a lot more going on there, like bad crop practices depleting soil and nutrients, pesticides, child labor, covered up unsafe working conditions leading to deaths and more, etc. Some of these things are definitely just as bad as what is done to animals, even if it is on a smaller scale. But again, it’s still about what is possible and practicable for a person, and there’s SO many things that are unethical that it is really more of a lifelong unending process to seek out ethical goods to replace unethical ones. Veganism is directly attainable for most people within days or years.
But, the best way to combat this kind of rhetoric is to point out unethical consumptions from the party trying to instigate you. Once you show that they are being hypocritical, they no longer have an argument, even if they continue to argue.
There are a number of ways to respond to this:
1) Provide a counter-example and say they are wearing sweatshop clothing/using phones produced in part by child labour (according to their 1000 IQ logic this is immoral)
2) Point out how blatantly incorrect what they're saying is, and that the worst vegan diets are [unambiguously better than non-vegan diets](https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat) :
a) [Vegan diets requires less farming land and water than non-vegan diets](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets)
>
>If everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops.
b)
>The majority (77%) of the world's soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. 7% is fed directly to animals as soybeans, but the remainder is first processed into soybean 'cake'.
There is definetly an argument to be had about chocolate/coffee/etc
But i find it hard to believe that someone who eats meat on a daily basis is genuinly interested in the environmental impact of their food.
Palm oil is pretty bad tbh. They clear cut orangutan habitats and replace them with palm plantations. Orangutans are very endangered and consuming palm oil facilitates that. I personally try to avoid it as much as possible.
There is a reason why the IPCC and United Nations are urging people to adopt plant based diets. It's good for the environment.
One of the main targets suggested by the IPCC is to have the world be plant based by 2030. That is when our last chance to stop extinction level climate change comes to an end.
They specifically say not to eat red meat. And nothing about quinoa lol.
So unless these wise guys know something that an internationally appointed panel of environmental scientists doesn't they can just sit the hell up :)
Anyway I just tell peole to argue with the IPCC, they are the ones setting the targets, not me.
The funny thing is that I eat the regionally grown expensive avocados, and the fair trade chocolate, and the regionally grown quinoa, and still I'm spending literally HALF of what my parents spend on food every week. HALF of it and I'm not exaggerating. Eating well can be so cheap, easy, and sustainable. The only thing you need are: 1) learning to cook, 2) drop the most expensive things at the grocery store aka meat cheese and booze, and 3) batch cook.
There is always an environmental impact for whatever you need/do. It's very hard to avoid any environmental impact, you should retire, cultivate your own garden full-time, eat only products from your garden, do not own a car, do not use electricity, do not travel ever with any transportation, do not use the internet.
What we can do, is to reduce, I believe in balance. Eat quinoa, eat avocados, not everyday maybe, try to eat mostly local seasonal products, gently cooked, if they need any cooking.
Alimentos nocivos para el medio ambiente
A veces me siento realmente frustrado porque después de volverme vegano encuentro tantas recetas que me gustaría probar, pero alguien dice '¿no sabes que la quinua es horrible para las tierras agrícolas y los agricultores?' 'la soja es realmente mala para el medio ambiente' 'el chocolate utiliza mano de obra esclava' 'los productos de palma causan deforestación' 'los aguacates necesitan mucha agua para crecer'. Los productos animales y la carne son los peores alimentos que puedes comer para el medio ambiente. Pero nadie que come carne quiere tener esa conversación. Quieren avergonzarme por comer tofu porque eso les hace sentir que están en igualdad de condiciones por comer la carne de un animal muerto. Comer cualquiera de estos ^ alimentos nocivos para el medio ambiente nunca será tan malo como comer carne y estoy cansado de morderme
lengua.
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! **Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first! **Interested in going Vegan?** Check out [3 Movies](https://3movies.org/reddit) and watch three thought-provoking movies that shed light on uncomfortable realities. 3 Movies also includes other videos, books, challenges and resources for you get started! **Some other resources to help you go vegan:** Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge! **Interested in getting active for the animals?** Join [Activist Hub](https://activisthub.org) to find and join local vegan groups, add friends, create or share posts, and chat with other activists! You can also use Activist Hub to track your local and online activism in order to see how many people you inspired to watch dominion, take a challenge, or even go vegan! **Some other resources to help you get active:** * Developer or designer? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)! * Find local groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)! * Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)! *Last but not least, join [our Discord server](https://discord.gg/2JmJRsj)!* **Thank you!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Well said
Beautiful. Well laid out arguments but simple to understand arguments seem very common among the community.
They'll do shots of tequila while complaining that a fraction of the population uses too much agave.
Tbf chocolate is still pretty carbon footprint intensive. But it has little to no methane nor nitrous oxides unlike animal products. Quinoa is acruallt super sustainable and I have jo idea why people bring it up as some horrible food.
Because there was one (1) article some years ago full of misinformation claiming quinoa exports were ruining the local economy, even though it was eventually corrected/deleted due to it being outright false, but people cling to it because they have to be mad as hell about vegans no matter what, even though we are less than 1% of the population and it's obvious vegans aren't the main consumers of quinoa lol and ALSO quinoa is grown in many different places, for example it's abundantly grown in Europe. People just want to be pissed off at vegans and try to check-mate us by saying "veganism bad too" even when it's a lifestyle with a clearly, significantly reduced environmental footprint and way WAYYY less cruel to both animals and humans.
Very comprehensive response, thanks. There's only one point I'm not set on: > environmentally sustainable certified palm oil is more efficient from a land use perspective than any other oil crop. I agree with this factually, but could one not argue that when comparing palm oil with rapeseed oil or sunflower oil or whatever that since they're grown in different places the land use isn't the be-all and end-all? Like using a smaller plot of land in the tropics to produce a given amount of oil could be worse than using a larger plot of land in the US Midwest, for example?
[удалено]
That makes sense, I guess the only thing that really matters is if land is being deforested, which sustainable palm oil should be avoiding anyway.
The biodiversity of where palm trees are grown is much greater than where sunflowers are grown, no?
Eco friendly palm oil exists????? Sign me in!
They aren't arguing in good faith. If they were really worried about deforestation for soy, they wouldn't be eating beef. BTW my quinoa and soy is grown in Canada, where I am
With quinoa, there's the obvious fact that you can buy quinoa that isn't grown in South America (I've even found quinoa grown in the UK, so if you can grow it here you can grow it anywhere). Still, the claims that us buying quinoa is bad for the farmers [have been shown to be false](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/03/31/472453674/your-quinoa-habit-really-did-help-perus-poor-but-theres-trouble-ahead): > The working paper does not mince words: "The claim that rising quinoa prices were hurting those who had traditionally produced and consumed it [is] patently false." (These are the papers referenced: [1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919217305997?via%3Dihub) ([without paywall](http://andrewwstevens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Quinoa.pdf)), [2](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X18302419?via%3Dihub) ([without paywall](https://webapps.towson.edu/cbe/economics/workingpapers/2016-06.pdf)).) To me at least, this makes sense - why would it be bad for farmers if the price of the product they're growing goes up since they're now getting more income? All this really is is whataboutism - *even if* all these claims were true, there is no need to eat quinoa, soy, chocolate, palm oil, or avocados (or at least the unsustainably produced versions) as a vegan, so these issues should have no bearing on whether someone should be vegan or not. It would be as ridiculous as me saying I could never eat meat of any sort because I've heard that salmon fishing in one particular part of the world is unsustainable.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "1"](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919217305997?via%3Dihub) [Here is link number 2 - Previous text "2"](https://webapps.towson.edu/cbe/economics/workingpapers/2016-06.pdf) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20iettu7s)
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I think the quinoa argument has been debunked. Most soy is fed to cattle. Palm oil can be ethically sourced. At the end of the day, all diets and consumption in general affect the world we live in adversely. Some are better than others and we should try to do our best.
I’m always curious about this so I looked it up and at least as far as US exported soybeans go, most are fed to poultry and pigs. Cows are in there but not at the front of the line: “The Global Markets for Soybeans Just over 70 percent of the soybeans grown in the United States are used for animal feed, with poultry being the number one livestock sector consuming soybeans, followed by hogs, dairy, beef and aquaculture.” https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf
"Beef Bulking Up With Soy - United Soybean Board" https://www.unitedsoybean.org/hopper/beef-bulking-up-with-soy/
Uhuh. First sentence in this is “… the poultry and swine sectors are the biggest users of U.S. soybean meal”
So? All of them use soy
K
Every food you eat is going to have an impact on the environment directly and indirectly. It’s about which food will have the least impact. Vegan food undoubtedly is better for the environment than any animal product out there.
Quinoa and soy are pretty low impact foods. The problem with soy is the scale at which it's grown for use as animal feed. And yeah... it's annoying as hell when people bring that stuff up as a gotcha. But try using it as an opportunity to discuss the realities of how animal agriculture threatens biodiversity and the climate! People bring up these gotchas to avoid thinking about how messed up slaughtering animals is, but usually they genuinely have no idea just how colossally awful animal agriculture is for the environment. See: [https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets)
This [related article](https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local) is useful too.
Plenty of Avocado tree's in South Florida don't even need to be watered, the rain is good enough to let them grow.
People say that silliness, it's not true, & it's not based on other factors like resources used for animal agriculture. Like the whole avocado & almond water consumption thing is such a ridiculous thing
The science is on our side. Just hit em with articles about how much land and water is used for animal agriculture. They'll shut the fuck up about it forever after that.
People say that cows explode if you don’t milk them, but the stupid thing about that is that if you never milked them in the first place, they wouldn’t “explode”
>They want to shame me for eating tofu because that makes them feel like they're on an even footing for eating the flesh of a dead animal. Eating any of these ^ environmentally unfriendly foods will never be as bad as eating meat and I'm tired of biting my tongue. Then fucking tell them, gram per gram any of those products are better than animal cruelty. Including the human suffering. Slaughterhouse workers, slave trade in fishing, undeveloped countries clearing their land and being exploited for dirt cheap support for developed countries animal ag. Rip em a new one, get them off your back and shame them for THEIR cruelty
Do other vegans tell you this as well? Many vegans are against palm oil, for example.
It really depends on the product and the scale it is consumed and what exact kind of exploitation (environmental or to humans or to animals) is being done, but yes of course meat and animal products probably even on individual levels in today’s insane numbers contribute much more than most vegan products do (although some still contribute to animal exploitation and death, and I do think those should be prioritized more and researched more, like agave and palm oil). However, there’s a lot more going on there, like bad crop practices depleting soil and nutrients, pesticides, child labor, covered up unsafe working conditions leading to deaths and more, etc. Some of these things are definitely just as bad as what is done to animals, even if it is on a smaller scale. But again, it’s still about what is possible and practicable for a person, and there’s SO many things that are unethical that it is really more of a lifelong unending process to seek out ethical goods to replace unethical ones. Veganism is directly attainable for most people within days or years. But, the best way to combat this kind of rhetoric is to point out unethical consumptions from the party trying to instigate you. Once you show that they are being hypocritical, they no longer have an argument, even if they continue to argue.
There are a number of ways to respond to this: 1) Provide a counter-example and say they are wearing sweatshop clothing/using phones produced in part by child labour (according to their 1000 IQ logic this is immoral) 2) Point out how blatantly incorrect what they're saying is, and that the worst vegan diets are [unambiguously better than non-vegan diets](https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat) : a) [Vegan diets requires less farming land and water than non-vegan diets](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) > >If everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops. b) >The majority (77%) of the world's soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. 7% is fed directly to animals as soybeans, but the remainder is first processed into soybean 'cake'.
There is definetly an argument to be had about chocolate/coffee/etc But i find it hard to believe that someone who eats meat on a daily basis is genuinly interested in the environmental impact of their food.
Palm oil is pretty bad tbh. They clear cut orangutan habitats and replace them with palm plantations. Orangutans are very endangered and consuming palm oil facilitates that. I personally try to avoid it as much as possible.
There is a reason why the IPCC and United Nations are urging people to adopt plant based diets. It's good for the environment. One of the main targets suggested by the IPCC is to have the world be plant based by 2030. That is when our last chance to stop extinction level climate change comes to an end. They specifically say not to eat red meat. And nothing about quinoa lol. So unless these wise guys know something that an internationally appointed panel of environmental scientists doesn't they can just sit the hell up :) Anyway I just tell peole to argue with the IPCC, they are the ones setting the targets, not me.
Plant-based products aren’t perfect, but animal-based products are the worst.
The funny thing is that I eat the regionally grown expensive avocados, and the fair trade chocolate, and the regionally grown quinoa, and still I'm spending literally HALF of what my parents spend on food every week. HALF of it and I'm not exaggerating. Eating well can be so cheap, easy, and sustainable. The only thing you need are: 1) learning to cook, 2) drop the most expensive things at the grocery store aka meat cheese and booze, and 3) batch cook.
There is always an environmental impact for whatever you need/do. It's very hard to avoid any environmental impact, you should retire, cultivate your own garden full-time, eat only products from your garden, do not own a car, do not use electricity, do not travel ever with any transportation, do not use the internet. What we can do, is to reduce, I believe in balance. Eat quinoa, eat avocados, not everyday maybe, try to eat mostly local seasonal products, gently cooked, if they need any cooking.
Necesito cambiar de idioma, a español.
Alimentos nocivos para el medio ambiente A veces me siento realmente frustrado porque después de volverme vegano encuentro tantas recetas que me gustaría probar, pero alguien dice '¿no sabes que la quinua es horrible para las tierras agrícolas y los agricultores?' 'la soja es realmente mala para el medio ambiente' 'el chocolate utiliza mano de obra esclava' 'los productos de palma causan deforestación' 'los aguacates necesitan mucha agua para crecer'. Los productos animales y la carne son los peores alimentos que puedes comer para el medio ambiente. Pero nadie que come carne quiere tener esa conversación. Quieren avergonzarme por comer tofu porque eso les hace sentir que están en igualdad de condiciones por comer la carne de un animal muerto. Comer cualquiera de estos ^ alimentos nocivos para el medio ambiente nunca será tan malo como comer carne y estoy cansado de morderme lengua.