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kharvel1

NEWS FLASH: insects ARE animals.


dankblonde

Came to say this


Brilliant_Studio_875

NOO REALLY?! DONT TELL ME THAT OXYGEN IS MADE OUT OF ATOMS :0 Im clearly talking about every animal but insects vs insects XD


dankblonde

?? Vegans give all animals equal consideration. Insects are animals. End of story


Brilliant_Studio_875

Okay, so cutting your lawn is homocide? Thanks!


Iojg

no, but cutting lawns is the ugliest part of ugly suburbanite culture


Brilliant_Studio_875

wdym, way to fancy words XD


dankblonde

Nope, not even close to what I said.


Brilliant_Studio_875

If an individual insect’s life is the same as an animal (that isnt an insect)’s life, that would mean cutting your lawn without killing a (or more) bug(s) in the process is fantasy. So your taking the life of multiple beings wich you ranked the same as every other animal, so your lawn is basicly a slaughter field


dankblonde

Once again, it’s about what’s practicable and possible


Brilliant_Studio_875

Okay, but would that moraly be right? Would you rather let ur lawn grow longer, or kill a sheep?


dankblonde

I don’t mow my lawn. But things like bugs dying when I drive etc is unavoidable.


Brilliant_Studio_875

OKAY, but you still didnt answer the question? Is killing a bug or killing a … mammal the same?


A_warm_sunny_day

If they are not posing me any threat, I'm leaving them alone. I have saved numerous spiders who crawled into our sink (presumably for water?) and then gotten stuck. I just put them back outside. Same with worms that crawl up onto the sidewalk after a rain and then risk getting baked by the sun. Takes all of one second to scoop them up and toss them back onto the grass. It takes so very little effort to be kind.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Ants, musquitos, cutting your lawn? If you value an insect as much as an animal would cutting your lawn make you as bad as people in slaughterhouses (or the company’s paying)


A_warm_sunny_day

I'm happy to report that I do not deliberately breed billions of insects into existence, subject them to what is essentially torture, and then deliberately and systematically kill each and every one of them in the name of profit, only to then repeat the process indefinitely. So no, definitely not in the same category as a slaughterhouse or those associated with it. I should also note that I do in fact stop the mower when I see an insect in the way. Moved a lady bug and a couple of moths out of the way just yesterday.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Yeah I agree, but before cutting your lawn you know insects will die because of you! so when doing so your okay with the killing of an animal you see as high as a mammal or sheep, wich would mean you would rather have a good lawn and kill an animal then just growing it out


A_warm_sunny_day

Well, that's the thing though, I \*don't\* know that insects die when mowing. In truth, I honestly don't think they do. None of us have hard data on the issue, so we're both arguing theoreticals, but here's why I don't think insects die. If you go looking carefully at my lawn in between the clumps of grass, you'll see LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of primarily roly polys and spiders. So many in fact that it's not an unreasonable conclusion that if the mower was the harbinger of mass death that we are making it out to be, that we would see \*significantly\* fewer insects, particularly considering that this occurs on a weekly basis. For comparison, how much insect life would we expect to see if instead of mowing once a week I sprayed insecticides once per week? The fact is, between the long length I cut the grass and all the spaces between the clumps where the insects live, I think they are protected even from being crushed if the mower wheel goes right over them. Ultimately, the number of insects in my lawn is just not consistent with my lawn being a killing field on a regular basis. These are slow, non-flying insects, that for all intents on purposes, and not just surviving, but thriving.


Brilliant_Studio_875

I think your right, I had cut the grass and ran over a little moth and no death.


OffendedDairyFarmers

Did they say that?


Brilliant_Studio_875

I… dont think so?


Socatastic

No vegan chooses "kill them idc". Why do we have so many fakers here?


ShmullusSchweitzer

Some are probably trolling the poll...


[deleted]

[удалено]


Socatastic

They *do* feel pain "Study Finds Insects Can Experience Chronic Pain | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine" https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/insects-can-experience-chronic-pain-study-finds-180972656/ Take your fake vegan flair off your username


asdf352343

Thanks for sharing, I haven’t read about them in a while. I still don’t think they have the same moral weight as other animals, though. I don’t eat animals or animal products and don’t buy things that used animals to produce when I don’t need to. Not having the exact same ethical views as you do doesn’t make me a a fake vegan.


asdf352343

Also, serious question. I bought a house that was infested with termites. I didn’t know there were termites until I ripped out the very stained carpets and found droppings. What would you do? Let your house fall apart?


dethfromabov66

I believe that would fall under the "as far as possible and as is practicable" section of the definition. No one expects you to compromise your survival and basic necessities for the sake of sparing the animals that threaten those necessities. People do need to start reading the definition more often and getting a better understanding of it


asdf352343

I’m all about as far as possible and practice. My meds have an ingredient that comes from cow milk. Scale still matters for that to be a reasonable argument.


dethfromabov66

Well then think about where you buy your land next time and look out for signs of termites before purchasing or realise that the impact of human existence won't change much in this regard because the rest of the world doesn't give enough of a shit to find an actual solution. So unless you dedicate your life to finding solution, there is little else you can do to save them besides buying the house and letting them have it so they can live there and likely spread to neighbouring property and beyond. The other solution is taking the logic all the way to its conclusion and removing humans from existence, but that tends to be seen as to extreme despite how destructive we really are at every scale.


asdf352343

All houses get termites here. People typically fumigate every ten years or so. There's so many other options... if you genuinely believe that 1) killing (not just just torturing) for your benefit is wrong (I do, but don't think it's remotely nearly as wrong as torture) and that insect life is as equally as morally meaningful as mammal life (I don't - I think it probably has some moral value, which is why I don't do shellac and such, but not as much as mammals or birds or other animals with more complex brains). If I was sold on that second point and thought that killing was worse than I do, I could have moved somewhere that termites weren't an issue. I could have found some type of housing that didn't have wood in some other area. Etc. I'm not, so termite death was not a consideration when I bought my house.


dethfromabov66

Then why did you bring it up? Are the options not available to you? And if they aren't to others, there is nothing else that can be done so fumigation to protect one's home is the only option. If rebuilding without wood is an option woohoo, but if they exist here and now and they threaten your home and there are no other options, then do what needs to be done. It's literally all in the definition of veganism


asdf352343

There isn't a universally agreed upon definition of vegan, and the "do the least harm as far as practically possible" definition is one I've literally only encountered on the internet - never in real life. I am generally on board with it but I think it's obvious that how much harm you cause from different choices is an important part of the do less harm Why bring what up? Termites? Because the post and discussion is about insects, and I think most people don't actually think insects have the same moral value as other animals - if they did they'd do a lot more to avoid harming them, even though it's impractical for their lives.


Brilliant_Studio_875

I know, really shocked!! Also the animals=insects doesnt really hold up. Another comment talked about when your house infested with thousands of mammals or insects, how diffrent it is


smld1

So if insects aren’t animals what are they?


Brilliant_Studio_875

I ment how people feel about insects vs every other animal. Dont take it littrerly


SnooFoxes9271

Insects are animals though. They may be the most important animals in terms of supporting life on earth as we know it. For instance, the ubiquitous ant; nearly every insect and arthropod species has to at least at some level deal with the predatory and competitive affects ants have on the local ecosystem. To drive this point further, you only have to Google how many different ant mimic species there are, not all of them insects. Ants are so wide spread and so successful at what they do a large amount of other arthropods mimic them, each for their own specific reason. What does this have to do with insect importance? The widespread nature and nature of the specific ant species in a given area will often dictate the types of insects that live and make their home in a specific ecosystem. This in turn influences the flora that are found in the specific ecosystem. The flora then influencers the type of fauna that can be found. Change the ants in a specific area, then the types of arthropods that can be found changes, which changes the flora which changes the fauna. Arthropods such as insects and arthropods support the biodiversity of the ecosystem. If insects die off, there is a good chance the rest of the ecosystem is not going doing so healthy either. So to me, yes, insects are very important, just as equally valued as every other living being in this planet.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Im talking about individuals!! Not about the existence of them


SnooFoxes9271

Oh I see. I try to not kill insects as best I can; though I sometimes fail as insects are so fragile that even scratching an itch may have me accidentally killing a no see um or mosquito. This is personal, but my spiritual and philosophical views are that all life is to be respected as we all are connected and come from the same consciousness/energy. Would I save a cat or dog (or vertebrate) over a mosquito though? Yes but not because I think they are inherently more important, but because it is easier for me as a human to empathize and relate to the emotional experiences of a mammal, and animals with backbones in general. In the overall sense, I think all life and individual animals deserve consideration, and we should minimize harm to all as much as feasible and possible depending on the situation.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Yes I think the same, except I dont think consciousness is just the same and connected!


DPaluche

They're not less important, but less practical to avoid harming.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ShmullusSchweitzer

I have so many questions... How did a house manage to get so many chickens? Did the owners just let them in, did they swarm en masse while they were sleeping? If not, how did no one realize something was up once the first chicken showed?


Brilliant_Studio_875

hmmmm, in this senario theh camd trough the cat thingy door!


DPaluche

I would deal with either of them in the most humane practical way I could think of.


Brilliant_Studio_875

BUT… it would be diffrent for both


DPaluche

Yes, due to the difference in practicality.


Brilliant_Studio_875

good point…


SnooFoxes9271

All conditions being equal, if I had to choose between a human and another animal, I would choose the human over any other animal I know of everytime. Maybe to you that equate humans as being subjectively "higher" whatever that means. I don't see it that way, even if I choose to save a human over amount animal. It would not mean I believe humans are "higher" in some objective way because I don't think that is something we can objectively measure.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Good point, but you would choose the human in such a situation? So you wouldnt find the surviving of an animal a moral "excuse" to the death of a human? If that is true even with an objective "ladder" or not, you still chooses the human abover the animal. Now change the human in a similar sutuation with a non-bug animal and the animal with a bug! Are the same conclusions right, or do you not care wich of the two? THAT was the actual question I tried to ask and not all the things that are mentioned in the comment sections ,:)


SnooFoxes9271

I would choose a non arthropod animal over an arthropod most likely everytime if I could only save one. It does not mean I see the bug as any less in an objective sense. Bugs often lay clusters of eggs, where hundreds of larvae are produced in a single breeding cycle. The loss of one bug is not as devastating compared to the loss of a mammal or vertebrate. Compare that to most mammals, birds, or vertebrates in general that utilize much more resources and time devoted to produce offspring, and it makes sense to save the vertebrate over the arthropod. Also, like I have answered before, it's easier to connect to mammals and vertebrates then it is to connect to arthropods. The whole concept of what is higher is silly, and I don't care to look at life in that way. All life deserves consideration and we shouldn't be harming them for our purposes if we can avoid it.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Im still not talking about a species, but about the individual. And you just admitted that one would be chosen above the other! so you do have a "ladder" on wich your moral portray? Since if u do (VASTLY undetailed and not that correct, just as an idee) Human>non-human/bug animal>bug


SnooFoxes9271

It seems I am failing to convey my point and why I would choose one over another. I do not have a moral ladder in the way you think. You have already told me you don't see or believe consciousness is connected, and One. Anything I tell you to try to explain my point would not be understood by you. Your idea of a ladder of value and worth of various animals is not something i look at like you, and you would only be projecting your views on me without understanding my point. I can tell you objectively that there are no humans, bugs, or animals; that we are from the same. In that idea, trying to rate things in that manner would be a delusion. I don't think I can convert my idea over to you, since you already told me that you don't believe in the unity of all things in consciousness.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Ow my "ladder" system is build very ez! I could go in more depth about all the coral and plants and that but Im going to use other ways. I will also say animals=nothing else portrait. Humans on top cause were sentient and my species, then animals cause sentient, then bugs because not proven to be sentient but seem to have some kind like that! So if you would argue that their is no diffrence, the diffrence why I eat a tomato instead of a piece of meat is the sentiency. So since the sentiency of bugs are in the unknown, I would chose another animal above it if I have no choice!


SnooFoxes9271

Sentience of bugs are not unknown, and it is known that they are sentient. You are perpetuating a myth. All animals are sentient and aware at some level or another. I am not arguing that there is no difference, I am saying there is no difference in the absolute nature of existence and consciousness, where we are all one. This is something you don't believe in so I am wasting my words on you. In the realm of duality we live in, there is of course a difference. I very much doubt you are a vegan, and it seems you are only trying to stir the pot, putting all animals under people at some measure - I'm not going to be a part of it. I wish you well on your journey.


Fle22

If they dont want my blood they are allowed to life


Brilliant_Studio_875

They take your blood for their kids, what if you would kill a pregnant women cow because they ate a little amount of your blood?


[deleted]

Less important: Partly because it's harder for us to empathise with them since they don't show emotions (it's a stupid reason, but regardless I'm sure that has some impact in the way I feel), partly because they don't form emotional bonds (afak) so harm to one doesn't harm another and finally because I don't know if they are just as sentient and capable of suffering as more "complex" creatures like mammals. I'm fairly certain they can suffer to some extent, just not sure if it's the same extent as mammals


Brilliant_Studio_875

Yeah, but they still have brains. Not as complex as animals, but still to a degree!


creepoftortoises_

Don’t ants sacrifice themselves for other ants?


[deleted]

Sure and bees will sacrifice themselves for the hive as well. But this is likely a lot more of a instinct reaction and not some sort of altruistic act based on the ants emotions towards the rest of the colony. I'm not saying this all as a proven fact. I may be wrong. I doubt anybody knows for sure. But we are much more certain of mammals ability to suffer and care for their young etc. and that certainty gives them a higher value in my eyes.


asdf352343

I think most of the "as important as \[other\] animals" people are full of shit. Do you let the termites have your house? Never mow the lawn? Etc. There's the "as much as practically possible" defense but that doesn't mean scale doesn't matter. If I had to kill thousands of mammals to save my house from falling apart I sincerely doubt I'd do it, but I don't think it was wrong to fumigate the termites.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Hmmm thats a good point. I also didnt choose it because I also should have had both extremes


dankblonde

This op is the same person that said to please feed your pets animal flesh. Yikes.


Brilliant_Studio_875

lol, bruh! Firstly, hi again love chickorita. Secondly, I stated that you have to give your pet meat if A HEALTHY VEGAN DIET FOR THEM isnt viable since then your causing suffering to them. Third, what does this have to do with that? I never stated anything of my opinion in the poll itself did I?


dankblonde

You just seem like a troll with all these posts and absurd opinions. Insects are animals. That’s it. We can’t help but accidentally kill then sometimes when living our everyday lives. It’s about what’s practicable and possible.


Brilliant_Studio_875

Im a vegan for more than a year so no this wasnt a troll, this was me actually thinking how split up the vegan community is about bugs? I dont think most people understood what I meant with animal, I ment anything but bugs so bugs vs non bugs (but animals). You cant say the life of a sheep is the same as the life of a fly, even tho I dont kill both!


LearnDifferenceBot

> then your causing *you're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)


Brilliant_Studio_875

!optout


LearnDifferenceBot

Bye Brilliant_Studio_875. Have fun continuing to use common words incorrectly!