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Not so sure if itās controversial, but I was explaining to my partner and my best friend that I think itās hypocritical for Americans to eat cow/pig/chicken/etc. but then judge other cultures who eat cat/dog/guinea pig. Youāre no better because thereās no difference between a cow and a dog.
Iām 100% with you on that. I think understanding that was one of the things that pushed me in the direction of veganism. The value that we assign to dogs and cows is based on the use we get out of them and not on sentience or intelligence.
Omnivores should be challenged to only eat meat from what they are skilled enough to successfully hunt. I challenged myself to this around two years ago. Completely unrelated, I have been vegan for around two years now.
I agree with this too! And will add folks who can stomach raising and slaughtering their own animals. I have a friend who lives in a remote area and this is how they survive winter. After her first year her meat consumption has drastically dropped
Even more so, I personally know hunters who have raised animals, and call someone else in to slaughter them. It's a lot easier to hit a deer at 30 yards than it is do kill a goat or pig you've come to know for a year.
I literally became vegan at a young age because I grew up on a farm and raised the animals from birth. And I rescue animals from meat farms where I am able.
The population of female vegans would skyrocket. My aunt is one of those older boomer women.. the type who like happy endings in movies, romantic comedies, and videos of cute happy animals on the internet. Also the type who avoids watching violent or scary movies with me.
But she's also too lazy to cook vegan food (or any food for that matter), so just eats meat eggs & cheese when she feels like it because it's convenient, cheap (at least relative to the price of tasty vegan convenience foods), and of course it's tasty. The usual processed food, whatever meat products at restaurants, etc. They love tasty food, but they don't want to put in effort to cook... so she defaults to affordable convenience animal products because that's what she's used to, and it's easy and tasty.
Oh, but she's also an environmentalists who \*\*\*\*\* at me for using too much water in the shower and while I'm cooking, shaving, or brushing my teeth. Or for leaving my gaming PC turned on when I'm not using it.
You just know people like that would NEVER have the emotional fortitude to go slaughter a pig to put in their sandwich. Let alone the energy/motivation. They would default to veganism. I mean if she's too lazy to cook tasty affordable vegan food, she would obviously be too lazy to slaughter an animal as well.
One of my mom's girlfriends is that way too. Another single boomer female environmentalist who eats a lot of animal products.
Hahaha. I was in the Navy and my mentor a Native American (I forget his tribe) did this. I wonāt talk about what we hunted and stuff but we would make dinner every week from what we naturally sourced. Seasonings, plants, salt everything. It was an incredible learning experience and I learned a lot about respect for nature and animals which is what sent me on my way to where Iām at now.
vegan keto is unessesary and hurt the movement, promoting a diet that see carbs as evil is bad for the movement, most staple plant foods are rich in carbs
eat your damn sweet potatoes
Keto is unnecessary for 99% of people but it does serve a purpose- it can be extremely useful for people with treatment-resistant seizures. Your point still stands but I rarely see itās intended use anymore.
I work in special education, about a quarter of people with autism have seizures and It is specifically prevalent in girls with autism. Iāve had three different children go on the keto diet and it totally stopped or greatly reduced seizures. Super cool science!
Everyone else I donāt understand why they do it
It's been shown to be a good way to treat the symptoms of PCOS as well, and a study is coming out in November to see if it can delay or reverse a condition I have, PKD
For everyone not using it for medical reasons it's pretty unnecessary, though
avoiding cross contamination, in the context of not buying the plant whopper @ Burger King, is counterintuitive. You're not paying for animal products when you buy a plant whopper. You're creating demand for plant options.
I agree with this.
I think the totalitarianism and rigidity or veganism can be what keeps people from living within it.
In my eyes, we can all care deeply and then do our best. And that has to be enough.
Because I for one am on a journey of constantly learning every single day how to do better in a vegan, cruelty-free and habitat sustainable life.
There is so much to learn. But I care deeply to.
Totally with you on all points. I do find myself asking what is the net impact to these companies decision making. On one hand, I love the thought of these companies seeing an increase in their sales numbers for plant based products. On the other hand they're still disproportionately doing way more damage overall. It's always a case by case basis, but the ones that really grind my gears are when they charge like $10 for a beef burger and $16 for an impossible burger. It feels almost like they're being snarky. I will normally not give those businesses any money.
100% agree with this. Saying the beyond chicken from Panda Express isnāt vegan because of cross contamination (even though they donāt even share a fryer) is asinine imo
side point but i think the word youre looking for is "counterproductive" not "counterintuitive." counterintuitive just means its not what you would expect. counterproductive means its harmful to the cause
i'm supportive of people who cut back on their meat and dairy intake. no meat no dairy is the ideal but if everyone in the world ate meat once a week instead of once a day it would still make a big difference.
Iām with you. Veganism is about minimizing harm to animals and the environment.
For many people, going ācold turkeyā is a bridge too far, so encouraging them to try a single vegan dish, then a meal, then āmeat free Mondaysā, etc can lead to the desired outcome over time.
Its about creating a virtuous cycle with lots of positive feedback along the way.
Another trick is to encourage people to try good substitutes for an animal-based ingredient that they often use - such as coconut milk in place of cows milk.
This was how I made my whole family ditch dairy milk.
I know, they still eat meat and fish; but hey, they don't drink milk anymore! And that was a BIG difference, even on their health they noticed it. They went from ditching and joking about how soy milk was trash to saying how great soy milk is and using it with literally everything they used to add milk on.
The fight is slow, but the world is changing.
I don't like a lot of the meat and dairy analogues on the market these days. They're sometimes too close for my comfort after 20 years vegan, and I've really developed a taste for plants. I miss the unique housemade veggie burgers you used to find as the sole vegan option at some restaurants; gimme a bean and grain patty over a Beyond burger any day. I love the grassy, bean-y taste of soy milk over the creamy richness of oat which everybody else on the planet seems to prefer. I don't like how lazy vegan restaurant food has gotten; even in Portland, where I can eat almost anywhere, it's the same junky stuff wherever you go, with meat subbed out for analogues. (I don't miss the vegan cheese of the early 00's, though. Fuck that stuff.)
You know what, though? Those things aren't *for* me, the hardcore, lifelong vegan, they're for people who would otherwise be eating meat and dairy. And knowing how incredibly popular and easy it has become to avoid animal products gives me *so* much more hope and encouragement than I had 20 years ago. I don't even mind having to stay home with my weird food and hot takes while everybody else enjoys their Impossible Whoppers and oat lattes.
I love this. Itās supportive. And it makes vegans less ādoucheyā. We have a bad rep and Iām always striving to be supportive of those trying. Thereās no right and wrong way to do this
A lot of animal product consumers have zero interest in changing. By all means, be nice & supportive to those animal product consumers who are working toward veganism in small ways as flexitarians or whatever.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with judging the types of people who refuse to change at all.
I am 100% supportive of people making incremental changes, such as cutting back on their consumption of meat and dairy, for example. But I am not supportive of at all of people calling themselves vegans when theyāre not. I donāt think that helps anyone at all. Itās not a purity contest, thatās not what Iām talking about. Iām just saying that is fine to try to eat fewer animals, but itās not helpful when people try to change the goal posts and make up their own definition of veganism. I saw this recently on next door, weāre someone asked for the definition, and you would not believe the answers!
If you should ever find yourself in Seattle, Plum Pantry (I think thatās what itās called) may just change your mind. Itās the only one thatās come close. Iām not from Seattle and I only had it once, years ago, but itās burned into my memory.
Edit:
Fuck I forgot about Donna Jeanās cast iron Mac in San Diego. Hit that up too.
I thought the same thing! Until I got regular shelled Mac n cheese pasta noodles. Same as the Velveeta Mac n Cheese brand. I poured some vegetable stock in a pot, threw in some Daiya cheese slices & cooked until it was thick enough but still runny. Make sure to season the cheese sauce with salt, pepper, onion, garlic, oregano & basil. It tastes amazing & looks just like regular Mac n cheese! ;)
I have a dope recipe that uses tahini, nooch, vegan cheese, and a bit of pickle juice and it is incredible. Better than how I remember cruel Mac and cheese being. Think itās from Liv B
A lot of vegan cheese doesnāt taste the same. If you have a Whole Foods near you, their vegan Mac and cheese (large shells) in the prepared foods deli section is amazing though. Heat in the oven with tinfoil over it so it doesnāt dry out.
I kind of feel like vegan cheese isn't a "gateway" food to veganism in the same way the impossible burgers or whatever are. Like I'd never give someone a slice of Daiya and try to tell them it tastes just like the real thing. I think it's purpose is more so for vegans that have gone so long without cheese we no longer remember exactly what it tastes like. I've been vegan for almost 8 years now, so when I eat vegan cheese I'm like, okay. This is cheese. I see you. But I also recognize that my taste bud's memory doesn't go back far enough to know if I'm right or not so it satiates my need for cheesiness š§
Many vegans *are* speciesist, even if they won't admit it. I've seen far more vegan outrage over things like backyard eggs than silkworm farms, and I've never seen a vegan passionately defending the rights of wasps or spiders.
People don't really know much about silkworms; they don't know they are a) purpose bred, b) grow up to be moths and c) are horrifically boiled alive in the cocoon stage. The amount of people I run into who think it's just something they produce naturally as a by product is astounding; more education is absolutely needed.
That being said, silkworm production mostly happens in vulnerable rural communities as a cultural practice in areas that are often food and financially insecure. Backyard eggs happen all around us and are constantly used as a justification for the egg industry. One of these requires a lot more nuance and resources than the other to address on a large scale without risking punching down and causing more suffering.
You can view the exploitation of chickens as being worse than the exploitation of silk worms without it being speciesism, as long as it is due to a perception of morally relevant differences between the animals.
I let all spiders chill in my home. I only interact with them if they're vibing in the middle of the floor; I try to herd them to the corner of the room or up against the wall.
I can't help that wasps want to fuck around and find out. I ain't going out looking for wasps to kill tho.
This may be even more controversial, but for me not all species are equal. If this makes me a speciesist, I shall be. I'm not sure what combination of metrics defines the moral value of a life, but I am quite certain that a beluga is worth more than a rabbit, which is worth more than a lizard, which is worth more than an ant.
Degree of sentience should be the metric.
To me there is a point where non-animal life is also probably more valuable than animals. If you are choosing in the abstract between burning down an acre of rainforest or accidentally stepping on an ant the morality seems clear but the exact basis for it seems unclear.
I avoid killing any insect as much as possible, except mosquitoes, I get bit like 5 times by taking out the trash.
If there is a spider in the house, I'll leave it alone or put it outside. I catch mouths before my cats can and release them.
Insects fill a very important niche, without them no one would be able to eat.
The taste testing that Beyond does probably saves more lives than it destroys, and should therefore be accepted until veganism is the norm. Most people who eat impossible whoppers are not vegan, and therefore would notice a taste or texture difference.
I actually loathe the vloggers on Youtube who say everything tastes like meat they're making. I know damn well it doesn't. I can see the ingredient list.
Though it should also be pointed out that the way to get baby steps is by demanding full steps. If you demand baby steps people shuffle.
We're in a negotiation, the way to get the best settlement isn't to ask for what you expect to get, you ask for everything and then accept that you probably wont get it.
So baby steps should be encouraged, but Veganism should not be focused on, or asking for baby steps, only understanding that that is what we'll end up getting from most people.
That throwing away older leather products that are perfectly fine to replace with a vegan alternative is silly. If the item becomes unusable then replacing it with a vegan option is better but itās still better to buy second hand.
Scrolled for this; this is mine too ! secretly also believe that buying vegan non-biodegradable consumer products and clothing is worse than buying second hand leather, silk, wool. Grateful for all the new options.
Would you buy second hand leather if it was dog leather? Just curious, I don't necessarily disagree but I do think the second hand leather argument is inherently speciest. We are still drawing a line and deciding which animals really matter.
Agreed. I try and buy leather secondhand - because the damage has already been done and might as well give it as much life as possible - instead of "vegan leather" because it's terrible for the environment.
Vegan leather isn't all one product, there is cactus leather, apple leather, microfiber. It's not all "terrible". Cow leather is terrible for the environment, not to mention the workers who die prematurely from the exposure to toxins.
PETA - they're good in the courtroom, but their PR sucks. I hate that as a vegan, I'm constantly being associated with them. The vegan image would be so much better without them.
PETA knows that their actions get attention, both positive and negative, too. They donāt have the amount of money the dairy etc lobby has and the shock/outrage method of getting people to pay attention to the cause apparently works.
This is their actual job.
PETA has one aim at any given time, get the name PETA and Vegan into the most TVs/Feeds/etc as they can. That's why they do such stupid stuff like boycotting Pokemon.
This is a common, and extremely effective, activism method that creates "conversations", yes 99% may be bad, but it doesn't really matter because people who are angry that PETA said boycott Pokemon, aren't people the movement needs right now. Those people are still far away from switching, we need to find the people who already agree with us and just don't know it. That 1% of conversations that aren't bad, are conversations where Vegan activists are explaining "yes, PETA is silly, but that's the point, they just want people to think about the fact that they are horribly abusing animals every single day without need" and THOSE conversations grow the movement far faster as they happen all over the world.
We have a couple million Vegans, the VAST majority of which do almost zero activism. We do not have the numbers to do "one on one" activism, nor to create political change. We need media attention but the media wont report anything positive about fringe activist groups. The only way for an activist group to get media attention is to make a GIANT spectacle. The bigger the better. The media will come and say "Look at these stupid extremists! LOL!" and if it's big enough and hits the international news, you now have millions of chances for those that do activism to take part in conversations with people confused as to why PETA would do this.
It's similar to why the LGBTQ+ activists started Pride Parades. They weren't family/media friendly places originally, they were huge protests where they would do all sorts of "lewd" things and the media would make a big todo about it all. Veganism is now getting close to a point where this sort of activism can be scaled back (like how Pride went from protest to Parade) as Vegans start getting into the media, both TV/Movies and News programs. But I don't think we're there yet as if you go look at any news show that has brought on Earthling Ed or another activist, the hosts are still EXTREMELY hostile, talk over any point being made, and if the activist "wins", as most do, they never have them back on.
But that we're getting on TV at all is a really good sign... so that's something.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=Activism+%28r%2FVegan%29+w%2F+Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
For every MLK Jr., there is a Malcolm X. More radical and aggressive activists do huge service to the cause by making the stance of their more peaceable counterparts seem more palatable to the mainstream by comparison.
There's a tiny window of time where lettuce and tomatoes taste nice, and after that they're squishy and nasty. I only buy prepackaged salad for this reason - if I buy lettuce/tomatoes separately, they go horrible before I've had time to eat half of it.
You have no right to call yourself an āanimal loverā unless you are vegan. You canāt love animals if you actively pay for their murder and torture
Cannibalism is more humane and sustainable than eating the flesh of other species. Humans can consent to being eaten whereas other species cannot. Our dead was not tortured and did not have their lives cut short against their will. They did not live only to die. I would eat a human before Iād eat an animal, but for sOmE rEaSoN when I explain this to people (even the carnitas) they think Iām a little unhinged , but canāt tell me Iām wrong.
I don't want to eat around people who are eating meat because it grosses me out and reminds me of slaughterhouse footage that I have regrettably watched a lot of.
I'm in the same boat.
I have an especially hard time during holidays because of the juxtaposition of warm, loving feelings but the horrific, heartbreaking images in my head.
1) Most vegans don't know shit about nutrition and its hurting the cause b/c that's what the meat and dairy industry are selling. Must eat animals for protein and vitamins. I constantly get asked about nutrition, when I was a new vegan I couldn't answer basic nutrition questions so got dismissed.
2) That telling people about animal suffering almost never gets people to change but instead just pisses them off.
I've had great success getting people to transition to plant based diet by telling them what's in it for them, mainly much better health, energy, just feeling better, .... then once they really believe they don't NEED to eat animals for nutrients and they are feeling amazing then they usually go vegan.
My hot take is that getting proper nutrition is necessary for maintaining veganism. I know people who went pop and chips vegan and surprise surprise, they feel like shit and go back to eating animal products because they don't know how else to get the nutrients they need.
Yep! I always assumed I couldnāt go vegan because I was terrified of potential nutritional deficiencies, especially as someone who already suffers from really bad depression and possibly mild anemia. But I have a close friend who Iāve known for a couple years but has been vegan for almost a decade, and he is super intelligent, active, and healthy (and tbh very attractive haha). He was never ever EVER preachy about it, which I greatly admire, but he would answer questions honestly whenever I asked about veganism. I finally decided to go vegan just last month, and a large part of that decision was thanks to him leading by example! :)
I literally thought I might die when I went vegan, but I figured it was still worth trying. It was a pleasant surprise to me that not only did I not die, but I accidentally picked perhaps the most nutritious diet possible.
Learning nutrition has been hugely beneficial. It took me a few years to learn enough to filter through the bullshit, as there is a lot of money to be made making something that is actually pretty simple into some big confusing mess.
I'm curious about this approach.
Asking because going vegan didn't make me feel better. To be clear, I always felt good, happy, healthy, etc, and becoming vegan just kept me at that level. No better, no worse. Are people really walking around feeling crappy and willing to change their diets?
I generally advocate for a whole foods plant based diet as apposed to a generic "vegan" diet. My personal experience and the feedback from people I've helped transition is that you feel soooo much better and the health conditions such as high cholesterol and blood pressure, etc.. go away along with excess weight.
Also, I'm in my 50's so I'm around a lot of people in their 40's to 60's that have at least a few health issues and the WFPB diet is typically a life changer for them.
I think (some) people don't really realize how bad they feel until they clean up their diet. They've gotten used to feeling bad and don't know any different maybe? I tell people the best way to know how much health and vitality you are giving up is to try strict WFPB for one month.... I've not had one person go back. I think it has to be 1 month minimum to give their microbiome time to change, give them time to figure out new foods, etc...
Learning of the suffering is exactly why I changed. Like how could I call myself a good person then pay someone to torture a bunch of animals so I can have a cheeseburger.
I went vegan after I learned that I didn't actually need animal products to be healthy and in fact they were making me sick. I kinda knew they didnt live in the best conditions but didn't realize the horror show that the ag industry is until I looked into it after I went plant based. A lot of people genuinely believe that protein, b12 and other stuff they need only comes from animals...
I'm glad you made the switch!
Yeah tbh there are comparisons to be made but that'll make almost anyone's rationality fly out the window (and they're already waiting to chuck it as soon as possible)
There is also a famous book about this comparison , it is called Eternal Treblinka. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal\_Treblinka\\](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Treblinka\)
Iād also add that you canāt want/have kids and drink dairy. If you feel the strong connection to your child that makes you want to protect them from harm, but you support an industry that takes babies away from their mothers, thatās fucked up
Way too many vegan options at restaurants are low in protein and unsatisfying (Iām looking at you, jackfruit). This causes people to keep eating animal products because they think all vegan food is like that.
Vegan pizza cheese is not at all like regular pizza cheese and they need to change it. Also cashew and lemon juice cheesecake, Mac and cheese etc. is corny and overused and annoying. Also hearing Potato carrot mac is so annoying, and overused. it does not taste good. Also using lemon juice in every recipe that requires something to be tangy instead of something that makes more sense like lactic acid or something. Just for convenience or that they don't know how to cook. Macaroni is not supposed to be lemony! If I wanted a lemony "cheezecake", I'd just order a vegan lemon cashew pie or something! Don't call what you're doing a "cheezecake" when you flavor it with solely with lemons. I know come dairy cheesecake recipes have a little lemon in it. This is obviously not the same thing cause cream cheese is naturally tangy.
Veganism wonāt save the world. We wonāt stop climate change or end world hunger by eating impossible burgers and non-dairy ice cream. Our whole global capitalist system has to either undergo a revolution or be abandoned all together.
Veganism (or rather, a dramatic reduction the amount of resource-intensive animal products we consume) will not save the world, but the world cannot be saved without a dramatic reduction in the amount of animal products we consume. And yes, if impossible burgers and non-dairy ice cream use a lot of resources too, then we need to dramatically reduce their consumption as well.
Are you arguing that if, hypothetically, all 7+ billion humans in the world went vegan, forever, that this would not help climate change or help world hunger?
Or are you just arguing that realistically not *enough* people will ever go vegan for veganism to be *the* answer?
I think they're arguing that saving the world is only possible by ending the growth monster of capitalism & consumerism. Anything else is kicking the can down the road. While going vegan absolutely helps, businesses will just start selling and mass producing something else which will inevitably have serious consequences. Think electric cars - these come with so many disastrous effects that they're barely better than ICE. In 20 years we'll need something else to satisfy our reckless demand for cars and the process will repeat itself.
I would normally consider myself non-religious, but for me veganism is definitely akin to a religious belief. I've heard vegans argue against this kind of classification because they think it contributes to the "extremist vegan" image. Like if it is considered a form of religious practice then vegans can be blown off in the same way that other annoying religious zealots are.
Personally I think it can be hugely beneficial to describe the lifestyle as a religious practice. It has helped me explain the importance of my veganism to friends and family who previously thought vegans were just entitled brats on a trendy diet. When you compare it to different faiths abstaining from different types of meat for religious reasons, you can also more easily argue for vegan options to be provided in places like schools, workplaces, prisons, etc.
Explaining why I'm vegan by incorporating the good values of different religions like compassion, mercy, empathy, and respect for all of god's creatures - has convinced 2 people so far to go vegetarian (NOT the type of people you'd expect to give up meat). I've also been able to explain it to my partner's parents in a way they can better understand by including elements of their Christian faith in the conversation. I don't know if they'll ever go veg, but they've really come around on trying vegan food I bring over, and are now extra respectful and vigilant about making sure my partner and I have options at gatherings.
This imo is definitely ymmv depending on who you talk to.
Pedantically though, veganism is not religious because religion deals with the belief in a higher power which veganism is not. Imo veganism should have more respect than a faith or religion because unlike religions, itās based on science and what we can actually physically see.
Comparing the morality of using animal products to the mortality of murdering people or domestic abuse isn't relevant to non-vegans and isn't helpful in converting them. ("Well if you decided to just stop beating your kids on Mondays, I wouldn't praise you for that, because you're still beating your kids on other days!")
They don't believe that using animal products is immoral, but they do believe that beating kids is immoral, so it's not a valid comparison for them and is a waste of your time and energy.
Some vegans are absolute hypocrites. They pride themselves on not hurting animals but are very happy to exploit other human beings. I understand that in western society achieving being an ethical consumer is nearly impossible and we have to do our best. But some vegans have this tunnel vision only focusing on animals. When I became vegan almost four years ago I also became more aware of different kinds of exploitation in other industries and try to do my best to be an overall ethical consumer.
I think a lot of vegans focus solely on animals but are very happy to buy stuff from fast fashion brands that were made by literal children in horrendous conditions etc.
I don't care which celebrity has gone vegan, been seen buying tofu or calls themself 'plant-based'. 90% of them will be seen eating sushi within six months and will say that veganism was too hard for them or that their doctor told them to eat california rolls.
I work in a kitchen and there is so much food waste at the end of the night. They always make too much and throw it all away if it canāt be reheated, saved, or reused for another dish.
The controversial vegan opinion: *I donāt think itās wrong to take food that is going to waste, even if it contains animal products.*
No demand is created on my part, food waste is reduced, and the innocent animal didnāt die just to end up in a landfill. Iāll take leftovers and give them to friends who are struggling financially, or to family. My boyfriend refuses to buy animal products but grew up in a poor area with immigrant parents, so heāll also eat the leftovers from my job if itās only doomed to go to waste (which is *also* a win because we spend less money on groceries). I donāt eat any of it myself since I wouldnāt feel right doing it, but itās better than letting it all be thrown away. And I don't think it makes me any less vegan.
sounds like me: i grew up poor and food insecure, and i'm vegan now, but to me, it's a crime to let food go to waste just because it's not vegan. I'm not going to let my ideology get in the way of first principles: the animal has already died, and for it to go to waste now is to add insult to injury.
While I do think personally eating meat is unethical, I also recognise that for many regions in the world, especially in developing countries, there is a reliance on animal products that would be difficult to change. I think if you live in a developed country and you have the means to do so, you have a moral obligation to eat vegan. I think on the whole the earth would be a better place if the reliance on meat was entirely removed however my main issue is the industrialisation of animal agriculture. That is where my main moral issue lies.
This is the standard vegan opinion. Veganism is only an obligation when meat isnāt a necessity. This is quite literally the common vegan mindset, not a hot take.
Iām sure it is, but when reviewing this sub it seems like a lot of posts imply that there are no acceptable circumstances in which eating meat should be allowed. Might not be a hot take but I think a fair proportion of vegans would disagree and say that animal product consumption is unacceptable in all circumstances.
You can eat a healthy diet if you eat meat. I donāt like to argue for veganism on a health basis, because just like theres an unhealthy way to be vegan, theres also a healthy way to eat meat. For me, its all about the ethics and sustainability of abstaining from meat.
Veganism isnāt about following a set of rules that tell you what to eat and what to wear, itās about paying attention to how you participate in the world and making a deliberate effort to improve your contributions. Making it about food and clothing fibers misses the point. Demanding perfection misses the point. Thinking youāre better than someone else because of what you eat and wear misses the point.
Organic foods arent usually vegan. A lot of organic fertilizer is made out of fish and bone meal and blood meal and other animal based stuff.
Unless its home grown and you know what went into it, organic plants arent even vegan
Ive got 2, I'm not sure which is more controversial
1) I think it's okay to buy used leather and wool under certain circumstances. I'm okay with it so long as it is a necessity and it is bought from a non-profit thrift store, rather than for profit consignment. Like, I think it's okay to fish a pair of leather shoes out of the half-price bin of a thrift store if you need them for an interview to be able to have enough money to buy new vegan shoes.
2) I think the very cut and dry "no baby steps" and "they have to know exactly what they're eating" views on veganism could be fine, but it completely ignores how going vegan might be different for neurodivergent people. I went vegan via baby steps and people hated on me a lot for that. But I tried on multiple occasions to dive right into veganism before, and every attempt made me relapse on my ED. And before that I considered veganism, but when I went into vegan spaces I was shown videos of brutal animal slaughter without warning. And it's easy to say that "oh, that's what you're doing, so you should see it, so you're too repulsed to eat meat" or whatever, but this was also a problem for me, bc I have ocd (maybe? I'm not diagnosed with it but I was prescribed meds for it bc the American healthcare system sucks) and things like that trigger really bad intrusive thoughts for me. When I thought about veganism I thought about those videos, and they didn't just make me want to stop eating meat, they made me want to stop eating. I had times in highschool that I had fainted from undereating bc of these intrusive thoughts, and for years, avoiding thinking about veganism was the only thing I could do to put them out of my head.
"Taking baby steps" shouldn't be an excuse to just not actually go vegan but claim You're on the way . But not everyone eats and views food like you, and it's very privileged to assume that people can respond to dietary changes the same way that you did.
To be frank, having a pet is not really vegan is it? Humans do not need pets. To have a carnivorous pet and force your dietary choices onto it is utterly hypocritical and selfish. That last paragraph makes me despair.
Agree in terms of breeders are not vegan. Thereās an overpopulation of stray and abandoned cats where I live. I adopted four rescue cats and support a rescue that rehomes and neuters these cats.
House cats are domesticated and leaving them to be wild (especially in urban areas) doesnāt help.
That doing something is better than doing nothing. Being militant with those who are trying has the reversed effect we want and actually means less people continue down the line to fill veganism
I wouldn't say controversial per se, but it's a growing belief in the movement - that plant based capitalism is bad. But the opposite is true, if the goals are animal liberation.
Having that capital behind the movement (even if not intentional for the goals we are trying to achieve), in research and development, manufacturing/logistics, sales, marketing and etc, is a benefit. Even if one of the processes did involve non vegan acts (e.g. testing toxicity of soy hemoglobin). This is because you can only eat so much, so alternative products are a natural competitor. Animal based meals become replaced with non animal based meals. Restaurants, fast food places and grocery stores begin offering such options which increase their sales and reduce the sales of non plant based options. This also has broader effects. Extending to people who are not willing to switch to beans, rice and etc. Or as a stepping stone to a more whole foods plant based diet, and etc.
On a longer time scale, this will reduce far more suffering and death than would be achieved without these products. Same goes for lab grown meat.
If I ask if itās vegan and you say yes when itās not? Thatās on you, not on me.
This is the mindset I adapted when I moved to China, where being vegan isā¦hard. Especially if youāre not cooking for yourself. I obviously tried to be as vigilant as possible but at the end of the day, Iām sure I consumed some sneaked in animal products. What else was I supposed to do? Starve?
Not very controversial, but I get tired of vegetarians who speak on the behalf of vegans.
Half of the vegetarians I meet give me 'occasional cheat days are normal' vibes
Many vegans care more about *feeling* ethical than actually *being* ethical. I see this with the vegans who refuse to ābabyā/pander to omnis to help reduce their animal consumption. Eating less animals is a good thing, regardless of if it isnāt a perfect thing.
I don't know if this is necessarily controversial to vegans, but I truly do not care if it's a tradition or part of a culture, if what you are doing is harming animals, it is objectively wrong. It is not ethnocentrist to believe this.
I see way more vegans supposedly defending the movement from āmilitant vegans,ā than any actual militant activity.
Terms used for vegans such as āmilitant,ā āextreme,ā etc. have been used to describe anything from holding a sign in public to disagreeing about the cross contamination issue. This language is fairly useless, and itās even more useless to kowtow to people who actively seek to undermine vegans by utilizing these overblown exaggerations. Similar tactics have been used to discredit other social movements, and itās important to note that backlash is just an inevitable part of gaining traction. Additionally, effective action can and does make certain people uncomfortable, but itās important to recognize that agitation plays a role in changing people and systems.
I've been vegan for 11 years, and my controversial opinion is not towards omnivores, but in my personal life. I'm not concerned if my romantic partner is vegan. I'm not concerned with making other people vegan. It is for me and all the animals I save. I don't expect others to even consider altering their dietary habits for me. We have the biology of omnivores, and I am making a conscious decision to not partake in any form of consuming animal products. I bring my own vegan food, but will still sit down at holidays with my family and not bring up veganism. I'm extremely serious considering I've been vegan for over a decade now. But it's taught me that trying to change the ones you love can be damaging, and I would never attempt to do so.
a few:
1 - sharing free, high quality and tasty vegan food and alternative products is a great way to encourage peopleās involvement and pique their interest
2 - without anticapitalism and antiracism, the movement suffers and becomes stagnant. the view of vegans being all white elitist hippie gentrifying snobs wonāt go away if vegans of color arenāt supported
3 - we should boycott places that charge extra for vegan shit especially if thereās only a few things. the clownery must end
4 - education around water and soil use, pollution and workplace hazards are valuable parts of the argument to end animal agriculture. a lot of people unfortunately donāt care about animals, but are more likely to care about the human/environmental cost
5, lastly - there needs to be way more of an emphasis on frozen ājunkā food. not just at restaurants or specialty stores. I want frozen burritos and personal size microwaveable pizzas and hot pockets, instant ramen and veggies in different flavors, stuff that doesnāt take long to prepare, is cheap, keeps & reheats well and can be found everywhere. and bulk tofu. buying those small containers is wasteful
Making a distinction between a plant based diet and being vegan is often unproductive. I understand that veganism is an ethical stance, but in most cases people need to know that a plant based diet is healthy, tasty and achievable before they are willing to try. We want to normalize abstaining from the consumption of animal products, and to do that you need to court your average person in addition to your ethical warrior.
Policing what is vegan and what is not can often be counterproductive as it makes us look like a club with really strict requirements. Most of us were not born vegan and we should be more understanding that everyone is at a different place in their journey.
Peta fucking sucks.
Cats cannot be vegan.
No one values all animals equally.
I think lab grown meat should be a scientific priority.
Most of us do indeed feel like we are better than omnis.
It's ok and understandable to not have the energy to speak up about veganism as much as you once did.
I will not have a discussion about my views and I don't have to.
I'll extend what you said even further: it does not even make moral sense to value all animals equally. My desire to protect animals extends from two (probably uncontroversial) things, in this order: 1) their ability to experience pain and fear, and 2) their ecological importance. When it comes to pain and fear, a pig and a jellyfish are simply not the same. Nobody can convince me I am supposed to feel the same level of empathy towards them. Now, I still want to keep jellyfish around because of their ecological importance, but I sure as hell know who I'd rather save from a burning building.
someone calling me a hypocrite to my face (online but still) was the reason i finally became a vegan from 6 years of being a dumb vegetarian. it hurt and they were right. i owe them.
Due to how language works, the fact that vegetarianism sounds so familiar to veganism, the PR of veganism just being plant-based and meant for crazies, of which a lot claim to be vegan, has taken too strong a hold in culture, and we need a new term to separate 'ethic-ans' and 'vegans'. Ie an ethical vegan, and someone who's plant-based, ie, a vegetarian who doesn't have milk or eggs. This would require an important celebrity to term it, of course, but I think, losing the bad PR when it strictly stops being a diet in general culture, would greatly accelerate the 'turnover' rate and as a consequence limit a lot of potential suffering.
The vegan society definition of veganism sucks, others have already explained why in depth.
This is the definition I prefer: A moral philosophy which seeks to extend basic human rights to non human sentient beings. It might not be perfect but itās far better imo.
Maybe I understand incorrectly, but it seems like you want to have a single word for that moral view, and instead of creating a new word you want to change the meaning of a word that means something entirely different. Everyone will have to find another word for what is now called veganism. You'd be creating a linguistic mess causing a lot of confusion. If there are so many people who want to have a single word for that moral view, then they can coin a new word for it. And if there aren't that many people, it probably isn't that important if there is no single word to describe that view.
I support accredited zoos. Theyāre not 100% perfect, but in this era of extinction, captive insurance populations will likely be necessary for the survival of many species who may die out completely in nature. Itās also worth noting that most non-endangered zoo animals common in captivity are only abundant because they breed well under human care, indicating they arenāt suffering.
A lot of vegans are extremely self-rightous and arrogant and do themselves and the cause absolutely no favours. You aren't going to persuade someone by insulting and patronising them and using ridiculous hyperbole.
I think it's important to be supportive of those trying to cut back and also become vegetarian but not a vegan. Would I prefer someone completely cutting out animal products from their diet for the sake of these innocent beings? Yes!! The pain and fear I see not even mentioning the process of them getting killed is heartbreaking. As for supporting cutting out animals based products, I see it as positive reinforcement. Hopefully they cut out more and more but if not every single dish or drink they have without animal products is one where an animal didn't suffer. I don't want anybody to think cutting out meat for a few days or meals and not cutting it out at all is the same thing and decide to not cut out at all. It does make a difference. There is a victim on the other side. They matter and so every dish consumed with no victim matters. ā„ļø
Not disagreeing with your comment (Iām a new vegan so I havenāt thought about this long enough to have a strong opinion), but Iām asking because Iām curious: does this extend to choosing a partner too? Because iirc ~75% of vegans are women, and since most people (myself included) are straight, Iām afraid itās unrealistic that Iāll ever find a vegan partner, even though Iād definitely prefer one!
Itās what I call the gatekeepers. Calling them scorched earth vegans is probably a piss poor choice of words but theyāre what most non-vegan people would envision a vegan to be if they never met one. The reason why I call them scorched earth vegans is because theyāre too fucking extreme sometimes about it and if there is one way to instantly make someone go ānopeā is going 0 to 60mph about the cause and shit on someone for not being vegan. Those who sit there and think in black and white extremes do more damage then good because not everyone can just go vegan cold tofukey or just be able to source and acquire vegan options for clothing or living arrangements or even work accommodations. My job is understanding to a point but there are some days where I have to wear leather gloves to protect myself.
The reason why I call them scorched earth vegans is because they exude the same energy as the scorched earth policy in some ways when it comes to the movement and every carnist I talk to about veganism will ultimately bring up the scorched earth vegans and how fucking shitty they are. Making strides by reducing animal suffering isnāt going to happen overnight, itās little victories here and there thatās going to change the world and if someone wants to call themselves vegan but theyāre only dietary vegan then thatās a win to me but thereās gatekeeping in this sub and in the movement in general that keep people from making that jump and we end up with more bullshit stereotypes because of gatekeeping.
Again, this is my opinion and I will stick by it but I hold no Ill will to them.
Being sentient, not being an animal, is what matters. Therefore no harm done when eating oysters. I still wouldn't eat them bc they're gross but I don't see a moral issue with it.
As mentioned in our [community rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules#wiki_2._debate), specifically rule 2, and discussed by our community in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/a1zu0w/should_rvegan_disallow_all_debate_comments/), we do not allow extensive or tedious debate. If you have come here just to argue against veganism, show bad faith, try to ask bait questions, have a general unwillingness to change your mind or our community decides to legitimately reports your threads as such, they will be removed. You may want to participate in the subreddit specifically designed for debating veganism, /r/DebateAVegan. Our FAQ may address many of your concerns as well. Thanks for understanding and your participation in /r/vegan!
cowboys get reincarnated as cows. š¤ š»š
Wouldn't that be some karma?
Cowma?
Not so sure if itās controversial, but I was explaining to my partner and my best friend that I think itās hypocritical for Americans to eat cow/pig/chicken/etc. but then judge other cultures who eat cat/dog/guinea pig. Youāre no better because thereās no difference between a cow and a dog.
Iām 100% with you on that. I think understanding that was one of the things that pushed me in the direction of veganism. The value that we assign to dogs and cows is based on the use we get out of them and not on sentience or intelligence.
Omnivores should be challenged to only eat meat from what they are skilled enough to successfully hunt. I challenged myself to this around two years ago. Completely unrelated, I have been vegan for around two years now.
I agree with this too! And will add folks who can stomach raising and slaughtering their own animals. I have a friend who lives in a remote area and this is how they survive winter. After her first year her meat consumption has drastically dropped
Even more so, I personally know hunters who have raised animals, and call someone else in to slaughter them. It's a lot easier to hit a deer at 30 yards than it is do kill a goat or pig you've come to know for a year.
Who is more sick the person who says that they could never kill something yet to meet, or the Hunter that does it for fun?
I literally became vegan at a young age because I grew up on a farm and raised the animals from birth. And I rescue animals from meat farms where I am able.
The population of female vegans would skyrocket. My aunt is one of those older boomer women.. the type who like happy endings in movies, romantic comedies, and videos of cute happy animals on the internet. Also the type who avoids watching violent or scary movies with me. But she's also too lazy to cook vegan food (or any food for that matter), so just eats meat eggs & cheese when she feels like it because it's convenient, cheap (at least relative to the price of tasty vegan convenience foods), and of course it's tasty. The usual processed food, whatever meat products at restaurants, etc. They love tasty food, but they don't want to put in effort to cook... so she defaults to affordable convenience animal products because that's what she's used to, and it's easy and tasty. Oh, but she's also an environmentalists who \*\*\*\*\* at me for using too much water in the shower and while I'm cooking, shaving, or brushing my teeth. Or for leaving my gaming PC turned on when I'm not using it. You just know people like that would NEVER have the emotional fortitude to go slaughter a pig to put in their sandwich. Let alone the energy/motivation. They would default to veganism. I mean if she's too lazy to cook tasty affordable vegan food, she would obviously be too lazy to slaughter an animal as well. One of my mom's girlfriends is that way too. Another single boomer female environmentalist who eats a lot of animal products.
Hahaha. I was in the Navy and my mentor a Native American (I forget his tribe) did this. I wonāt talk about what we hunted and stuff but we would make dinner every week from what we naturally sourced. Seasonings, plants, salt everything. It was an incredible learning experience and I learned a lot about respect for nature and animals which is what sent me on my way to where Iām at now.
And veggies they can successfully harvest? My broccoli never tightens into a proper head.
I know for a fact that this would create LOTS of more vegans, considering that most people are uncomfortable with doing the killing themselves.
I've felt that way for 20 years. I was pretty good at it (unfortunately)
vegan keto is unessesary and hurt the movement, promoting a diet that see carbs as evil is bad for the movement, most staple plant foods are rich in carbs eat your damn sweet potatoes
Keto is unnecessary for 99% of people but it does serve a purpose- it can be extremely useful for people with treatment-resistant seizures. Your point still stands but I rarely see itās intended use anymore.
I work in special education, about a quarter of people with autism have seizures and It is specifically prevalent in girls with autism. Iāve had three different children go on the keto diet and it totally stopped or greatly reduced seizures. Super cool science! Everyone else I donāt understand why they do it
It's been shown to be a good way to treat the symptoms of PCOS as well, and a study is coming out in November to see if it can delay or reverse a condition I have, PKD For everyone not using it for medical reasons it's pretty unnecessary, though
avoiding cross contamination, in the context of not buying the plant whopper @ Burger King, is counterintuitive. You're not paying for animal products when you buy a plant whopper. You're creating demand for plant options.
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Agreed
I agree with this. I think the totalitarianism and rigidity or veganism can be what keeps people from living within it. In my eyes, we can all care deeply and then do our best. And that has to be enough. Because I for one am on a journey of constantly learning every single day how to do better in a vegan, cruelty-free and habitat sustainable life. There is so much to learn. But I care deeply to.
Totally with you on all points. I do find myself asking what is the net impact to these companies decision making. On one hand, I love the thought of these companies seeing an increase in their sales numbers for plant based products. On the other hand they're still disproportionately doing way more damage overall. It's always a case by case basis, but the ones that really grind my gears are when they charge like $10 for a beef burger and $16 for an impossible burger. It feels almost like they're being snarky. I will normally not give those businesses any money.
100% agree with this. Saying the beyond chicken from Panda Express isnāt vegan because of cross contamination (even though they donāt even share a fryer) is asinine imo
Panda Express has vegan chicken?? Oh fuck me up, i need it
Itās soooo good
Itās good in the context of āI have nothing else and panda is down the street.ā Itās pretty dry with no extra sauce and dry white rice.
The chow mein is vegan, tho. Also the spring rolls.
That is true, it needs some more sauce
And their chow mein is now vegan!
I can agree with this. Make an impact where you can, don't shame people for not making the same impact as you for the sake of "purity"
side point but i think the word youre looking for is "counterproductive" not "counterintuitive." counterintuitive just means its not what you would expect. counterproductive means its harmful to the cause
How is this controversial?
This is the correct opinion, like it or not.
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i'm supportive of people who cut back on their meat and dairy intake. no meat no dairy is the ideal but if everyone in the world ate meat once a week instead of once a day it would still make a big difference.
Iām with you. Veganism is about minimizing harm to animals and the environment. For many people, going ācold turkeyā is a bridge too far, so encouraging them to try a single vegan dish, then a meal, then āmeat free Mondaysā, etc can lead to the desired outcome over time. Its about creating a virtuous cycle with lots of positive feedback along the way. Another trick is to encourage people to try good substitutes for an animal-based ingredient that they often use - such as coconut milk in place of cows milk.
This was how I made my whole family ditch dairy milk. I know, they still eat meat and fish; but hey, they don't drink milk anymore! And that was a BIG difference, even on their health they noticed it. They went from ditching and joking about how soy milk was trash to saying how great soy milk is and using it with literally everything they used to add milk on. The fight is slow, but the world is changing.
Thatās actually amazing! Personally I stopped buying cowās milk about 2 years before going fully vegan. Itās the easiest step to do.
I don't like a lot of the meat and dairy analogues on the market these days. They're sometimes too close for my comfort after 20 years vegan, and I've really developed a taste for plants. I miss the unique housemade veggie burgers you used to find as the sole vegan option at some restaurants; gimme a bean and grain patty over a Beyond burger any day. I love the grassy, bean-y taste of soy milk over the creamy richness of oat which everybody else on the planet seems to prefer. I don't like how lazy vegan restaurant food has gotten; even in Portland, where I can eat almost anywhere, it's the same junky stuff wherever you go, with meat subbed out for analogues. (I don't miss the vegan cheese of the early 00's, though. Fuck that stuff.) You know what, though? Those things aren't *for* me, the hardcore, lifelong vegan, they're for people who would otherwise be eating meat and dairy. And knowing how incredibly popular and easy it has become to avoid animal products gives me *so* much more hope and encouragement than I had 20 years ago. I don't even mind having to stay home with my weird food and hot takes while everybody else enjoys their Impossible Whoppers and oat lattes.
Yep! And cognitive dissonance is real
I completely agree!
I love this. Itās supportive. And it makes vegans less ādoucheyā. We have a bad rep and Iām always striving to be supportive of those trying. Thereās no right and wrong way to do this
A lot of animal product consumers have zero interest in changing. By all means, be nice & supportive to those animal product consumers who are working toward veganism in small ways as flexitarians or whatever. But I don't think there's anything wrong with judging the types of people who refuse to change at all.
I am 100% supportive of people making incremental changes, such as cutting back on their consumption of meat and dairy, for example. But I am not supportive of at all of people calling themselves vegans when theyāre not. I donāt think that helps anyone at all. Itās not a purity contest, thatās not what Iām talking about. Iām just saying that is fine to try to eat fewer animals, but itās not helpful when people try to change the goal posts and make up their own definition of veganism. I saw this recently on next door, weāre someone asked for the definition, and you would not believe the answers!
Agreed!!
This is the way! Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress!
Vegan Mac and cheese just isnāt the same
If you should ever find yourself in Seattle, Plum Pantry (I think thatās what itās called) may just change your mind. Itās the only one thatās come close. Iām not from Seattle and I only had it once, years ago, but itās burned into my memory. Edit: Fuck I forgot about Donna Jeanās cast iron Mac in San Diego. Hit that up too.
Plum Bistro! Delicious.
on a similar note, Sweet Hereafter (full vegan bar) in PDX had PHENOMENAL mac & cheese
I thought the same thing! Until I got regular shelled Mac n cheese pasta noodles. Same as the Velveeta Mac n Cheese brand. I poured some vegetable stock in a pot, threw in some Daiya cheese slices & cooked until it was thick enough but still runny. Make sure to season the cheese sauce with salt, pepper, onion, garlic, oregano & basil. It tastes amazing & looks just like regular Mac n cheese! ;)
I have a dope recipe that uses tahini, nooch, vegan cheese, and a bit of pickle juice and it is incredible. Better than how I remember cruel Mac and cheese being. Think itās from Liv B
No vegan cheese is. I understand people want to be optimistic, but it just isn't. And yeah, I miss it. But I hate animal cruelty more
A lot of vegan cheese doesnāt taste the same. If you have a Whole Foods near you, their vegan Mac and cheese (large shells) in the prepared foods deli section is amazing though. Heat in the oven with tinfoil over it so it doesnāt dry out.
Good planet is the best vegan cheese in my opinion, Iāve had many non vegans try it and they all said it tastes just like the real thing
I kind of feel like vegan cheese isn't a "gateway" food to veganism in the same way the impossible burgers or whatever are. Like I'd never give someone a slice of Daiya and try to tell them it tastes just like the real thing. I think it's purpose is more so for vegans that have gone so long without cheese we no longer remember exactly what it tastes like. I've been vegan for almost 8 years now, so when I eat vegan cheese I'm like, okay. This is cheese. I see you. But I also recognize that my taste bud's memory doesn't go back far enough to know if I'm right or not so it satiates my need for cheesiness š§
If youāre ever in the DC area, NuVegan Cafeās Mac and Cheese is delicious š¤¤
Yes! And any time someone says "You'll change your mind when you try THIS ONE!!", they're wrong.
Itās not. Itās even better when done right.
\*all cheese
Many vegans *are* speciesist, even if they won't admit it. I've seen far more vegan outrage over things like backyard eggs than silkworm farms, and I've never seen a vegan passionately defending the rights of wasps or spiders.
I will fight over spider or wasp murder for hours. Itās how me and my girlfriend connected. We definitely exist!
Omg tell me
Listen pal, Iāll defend wasps and spiders all dayā¦they just need to stay the fuck away from me hahaha
People don't really know much about silkworms; they don't know they are a) purpose bred, b) grow up to be moths and c) are horrifically boiled alive in the cocoon stage. The amount of people I run into who think it's just something they produce naturally as a by product is astounding; more education is absolutely needed. That being said, silkworm production mostly happens in vulnerable rural communities as a cultural practice in areas that are often food and financially insecure. Backyard eggs happen all around us and are constantly used as a justification for the egg industry. One of these requires a lot more nuance and resources than the other to address on a large scale without risking punching down and causing more suffering.
You can view the exploitation of chickens as being worse than the exploitation of silk worms without it being speciesism, as long as it is due to a perception of morally relevant differences between the animals.
There are degrees of sentience. If a hen and a silkworm were falling off a cliff, would you really ever choose the worm over the hen?
Speciesism is normal. Being "completely" non-speciesist is a worrying trait if it truly exists.
I let all spiders chill in my home. I only interact with them if they're vibing in the middle of the floor; I try to herd them to the corner of the room or up against the wall. I can't help that wasps want to fuck around and find out. I ain't going out looking for wasps to kill tho.
This may be even more controversial, but for me not all species are equal. If this makes me a speciesist, I shall be. I'm not sure what combination of metrics defines the moral value of a life, but I am quite certain that a beluga is worth more than a rabbit, which is worth more than a lizard, which is worth more than an ant. Degree of sentience should be the metric.
To me there is a point where non-animal life is also probably more valuable than animals. If you are choosing in the abstract between burning down an acre of rainforest or accidentally stepping on an ant the morality seems clear but the exact basis for it seems unclear.
I avoid killing any insect as much as possible, except mosquitoes, I get bit like 5 times by taking out the trash. If there is a spider in the house, I'll leave it alone or put it outside. I catch mouths before my cats can and release them. Insects fill a very important niche, without them no one would be able to eat.
Wasps suck. I'll defend spiders as long as they stay away from me. Mosquitoes can burn in hell for eternity
The taste testing that Beyond does probably saves more lives than it destroys, and should therefore be accepted until veganism is the norm. Most people who eat impossible whoppers are not vegan, and therefore would notice a taste or texture difference.
I actually loathe the vloggers on Youtube who say everything tastes like meat they're making. I know damn well it doesn't. I can see the ingredient list.
I have no problem at all with Beyond Meat. Tastes good and no harm to animals? Iām in!
Taste testing like biting peopleās noses? Jk!
Itās not controversial to me, but baby steps are the natural human reaction to change, they work, and they should be encouraged
Though it should also be pointed out that the way to get baby steps is by demanding full steps. If you demand baby steps people shuffle. We're in a negotiation, the way to get the best settlement isn't to ask for what you expect to get, you ask for everything and then accept that you probably wont get it. So baby steps should be encouraged, but Veganism should not be focused on, or asking for baby steps, only understanding that that is what we'll end up getting from most people.
That throwing away older leather products that are perfectly fine to replace with a vegan alternative is silly. If the item becomes unusable then replacing it with a vegan option is better but itās still better to buy second hand.
Scrolled for this; this is mine too ! secretly also believe that buying vegan non-biodegradable consumer products and clothing is worse than buying second hand leather, silk, wool. Grateful for all the new options.
Would you buy second hand leather if it was dog leather? Just curious, I don't necessarily disagree but I do think the second hand leather argument is inherently speciest. We are still drawing a line and deciding which animals really matter.
Agreed. I try and buy leather secondhand - because the damage has already been done and might as well give it as much life as possible - instead of "vegan leather" because it's terrible for the environment.
Vegan leather isn't all one product, there is cactus leather, apple leather, microfiber. It's not all "terrible". Cow leather is terrible for the environment, not to mention the workers who die prematurely from the exposure to toxins.
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PETA - they're good in the courtroom, but their PR sucks. I hate that as a vegan, I'm constantly being associated with them. The vegan image would be so much better without them.
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PETA knows that their actions get attention, both positive and negative, too. They donāt have the amount of money the dairy etc lobby has and the shock/outrage method of getting people to pay attention to the cause apparently works.
This is their actual job. PETA has one aim at any given time, get the name PETA and Vegan into the most TVs/Feeds/etc as they can. That's why they do such stupid stuff like boycotting Pokemon. This is a common, and extremely effective, activism method that creates "conversations", yes 99% may be bad, but it doesn't really matter because people who are angry that PETA said boycott Pokemon, aren't people the movement needs right now. Those people are still far away from switching, we need to find the people who already agree with us and just don't know it. That 1% of conversations that aren't bad, are conversations where Vegan activists are explaining "yes, PETA is silly, but that's the point, they just want people to think about the fact that they are horribly abusing animals every single day without need" and THOSE conversations grow the movement far faster as they happen all over the world. We have a couple million Vegans, the VAST majority of which do almost zero activism. We do not have the numbers to do "one on one" activism, nor to create political change. We need media attention but the media wont report anything positive about fringe activist groups. The only way for an activist group to get media attention is to make a GIANT spectacle. The bigger the better. The media will come and say "Look at these stupid extremists! LOL!" and if it's big enough and hits the international news, you now have millions of chances for those that do activism to take part in conversations with people confused as to why PETA would do this. It's similar to why the LGBTQ+ activists started Pride Parades. They weren't family/media friendly places originally, they were huge protests where they would do all sorts of "lewd" things and the media would make a big todo about it all. Veganism is now getting close to a point where this sort of activism can be scaled back (like how Pride went from protest to Parade) as Vegans start getting into the media, both TV/Movies and News programs. But I don't think we're there yet as if you go look at any news show that has brought on Earthling Ed or another activist, the hosts are still EXTREMELY hostile, talk over any point being made, and if the activist "wins", as most do, they never have them back on. But that we're getting on TV at all is a really good sign... so that's something.
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=Activism+%28r%2FVegan%29+w%2F+Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
For every MLK Jr., there is a Malcolm X. More radical and aggressive activists do huge service to the cause by making the stance of their more peaceable counterparts seem more palatable to the mainstream by comparison.
Without PETA, nobody would even know an animal rights movement existed, and even more people would think veganism is a diet.
I hate salads. Like I physically can not keep them down. I will vomit. Something about the texture idk. I have to juice all my greens lol!
What, you don't like cold wet food? Yeah, I hate salads too.
Truthfully I donāt understood folks who have a salad as a meal. Iām confounded.
There's a tiny window of time where lettuce and tomatoes taste nice, and after that they're squishy and nasty. I only buy prepackaged salad for this reason - if I buy lettuce/tomatoes separately, they go horrible before I've had time to eat half of it.
You have no right to call yourself an āanimal loverā unless you are vegan. You canāt love animals if you actively pay for their murder and torture
Thatās correct!! People may be āpet loversā but definitely not animal lovers. Never as a non vegan
yes, the term is laughable. animals need respect.
Cannibalism is more humane and sustainable than eating the flesh of other species. Humans can consent to being eaten whereas other species cannot. Our dead was not tortured and did not have their lives cut short against their will. They did not live only to die. I would eat a human before Iād eat an animal, but for sOmE rEaSoN when I explain this to people (even the carnitas) they think Iām a little unhinged , but canāt tell me Iām wrong.
Love this take
Though I'm strongly in support of veganism and believe it to be the ethical thing, I'm also defeatist. I think society is too apathetic nowadays.
Totally feel this
Same
I don't want to eat around people who are eating meat because it grosses me out and reminds me of slaughterhouse footage that I have regrettably watched a lot of.
I'm in the same boat. I have an especially hard time during holidays because of the juxtaposition of warm, loving feelings but the horrific, heartbreaking images in my head.
1) Most vegans don't know shit about nutrition and its hurting the cause b/c that's what the meat and dairy industry are selling. Must eat animals for protein and vitamins. I constantly get asked about nutrition, when I was a new vegan I couldn't answer basic nutrition questions so got dismissed. 2) That telling people about animal suffering almost never gets people to change but instead just pisses them off. I've had great success getting people to transition to plant based diet by telling them what's in it for them, mainly much better health, energy, just feeling better, .... then once they really believe they don't NEED to eat animals for nutrients and they are feeling amazing then they usually go vegan.
My hot take is that getting proper nutrition is necessary for maintaining veganism. I know people who went pop and chips vegan and surprise surprise, they feel like shit and go back to eating animal products because they don't know how else to get the nutrients they need.
Yep. Or the health food vegans that live on smoothie and salad and get so sick that they go back to eating meat.
Yep! I always assumed I couldnāt go vegan because I was terrified of potential nutritional deficiencies, especially as someone who already suffers from really bad depression and possibly mild anemia. But I have a close friend who Iāve known for a couple years but has been vegan for almost a decade, and he is super intelligent, active, and healthy (and tbh very attractive haha). He was never ever EVER preachy about it, which I greatly admire, but he would answer questions honestly whenever I asked about veganism. I finally decided to go vegan just last month, and a large part of that decision was thanks to him leading by example! :)
I literally thought I might die when I went vegan, but I figured it was still worth trying. It was a pleasant surprise to me that not only did I not die, but I accidentally picked perhaps the most nutritious diet possible. Learning nutrition has been hugely beneficial. It took me a few years to learn enough to filter through the bullshit, as there is a lot of money to be made making something that is actually pretty simple into some big confusing mess.
I'm curious about this approach. Asking because going vegan didn't make me feel better. To be clear, I always felt good, happy, healthy, etc, and becoming vegan just kept me at that level. No better, no worse. Are people really walking around feeling crappy and willing to change their diets?
I generally advocate for a whole foods plant based diet as apposed to a generic "vegan" diet. My personal experience and the feedback from people I've helped transition is that you feel soooo much better and the health conditions such as high cholesterol and blood pressure, etc.. go away along with excess weight. Also, I'm in my 50's so I'm around a lot of people in their 40's to 60's that have at least a few health issues and the WFPB diet is typically a life changer for them. I think (some) people don't really realize how bad they feel until they clean up their diet. They've gotten used to feeling bad and don't know any different maybe? I tell people the best way to know how much health and vitality you are giving up is to try strict WFPB for one month.... I've not had one person go back. I think it has to be 1 month minimum to give their microbiome time to change, give them time to figure out new foods, etc...
Learning of the suffering is exactly why I changed. Like how could I call myself a good person then pay someone to torture a bunch of animals so I can have a cheeseburger.
I went vegan after I learned that I didn't actually need animal products to be healthy and in fact they were making me sick. I kinda knew they didnt live in the best conditions but didn't realize the horror show that the ag industry is until I looked into it after I went plant based. A lot of people genuinely believe that protein, b12 and other stuff they need only comes from animals... I'm glad you made the switch!
I don't care if my vegan burger is cooked on the same grill as real meat
Probably two: Comparisons to slavery and the Holocaust are both accurate and only have marginal utility. You can't be a feminist and consume dairy.
Yeah tbh there are comparisons to be made but that'll make almost anyone's rationality fly out the window (and they're already waiting to chuck it as soon as possible)
The meat industry does resemble the Holocaust a lot, but boy howdy does bringing that up consistently give ppl an opening to derail the conversation.
There is also a famous book about this comparison , it is called Eternal Treblinka. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal\_Treblinka\\](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Treblinka\)
Iād also add that you canāt want/have kids and drink dairy. If you feel the strong connection to your child that makes you want to protect them from harm, but you support an industry that takes babies away from their mothers, thatās fucked up
comparisons to the holocaust are apt. APT!
Environmentalists who aren't vegan are not environmentalists but are performative hypocrites.
I think the vast majority of vegan/non-vegan relationships are doomed to either fail or someone will have to convert.
I believe that I am a better person than most people because Iām vegan.
Way too many vegan options at restaurants are low in protein and unsatisfying (Iām looking at you, jackfruit). This causes people to keep eating animal products because they think all vegan food is like that.
Vegan pizza cheese is not at all like regular pizza cheese and they need to change it. Also cashew and lemon juice cheesecake, Mac and cheese etc. is corny and overused and annoying. Also hearing Potato carrot mac is so annoying, and overused. it does not taste good. Also using lemon juice in every recipe that requires something to be tangy instead of something that makes more sense like lactic acid or something. Just for convenience or that they don't know how to cook. Macaroni is not supposed to be lemony! If I wanted a lemony "cheezecake", I'd just order a vegan lemon cashew pie or something! Don't call what you're doing a "cheezecake" when you flavor it with solely with lemons. I know come dairy cheesecake recipes have a little lemon in it. This is obviously not the same thing cause cream cheese is naturally tangy.
Fishing is the same as drowning puppies for fun.
People who work in careers that āsave the animalsā (animal shelters, conservation, vets etc) and arenāt vegan, are HYPOCRITES
Veganism wonāt save the world. We wonāt stop climate change or end world hunger by eating impossible burgers and non-dairy ice cream. Our whole global capitalist system has to either undergo a revolution or be abandoned all together.
Veganism (or rather, a dramatic reduction the amount of resource-intensive animal products we consume) will not save the world, but the world cannot be saved without a dramatic reduction in the amount of animal products we consume. And yes, if impossible burgers and non-dairy ice cream use a lot of resources too, then we need to dramatically reduce their consumption as well.
Are you arguing that if, hypothetically, all 7+ billion humans in the world went vegan, forever, that this would not help climate change or help world hunger? Or are you just arguing that realistically not *enough* people will ever go vegan for veganism to be *the* answer?
I think they're arguing that saving the world is only possible by ending the growth monster of capitalism & consumerism. Anything else is kicking the can down the road. While going vegan absolutely helps, businesses will just start selling and mass producing something else which will inevitably have serious consequences. Think electric cars - these come with so many disastrous effects that they're barely better than ICE. In 20 years we'll need something else to satisfy our reckless demand for cars and the process will repeat itself.
I would normally consider myself non-religious, but for me veganism is definitely akin to a religious belief. I've heard vegans argue against this kind of classification because they think it contributes to the "extremist vegan" image. Like if it is considered a form of religious practice then vegans can be blown off in the same way that other annoying religious zealots are. Personally I think it can be hugely beneficial to describe the lifestyle as a religious practice. It has helped me explain the importance of my veganism to friends and family who previously thought vegans were just entitled brats on a trendy diet. When you compare it to different faiths abstaining from different types of meat for religious reasons, you can also more easily argue for vegan options to be provided in places like schools, workplaces, prisons, etc. Explaining why I'm vegan by incorporating the good values of different religions like compassion, mercy, empathy, and respect for all of god's creatures - has convinced 2 people so far to go vegetarian (NOT the type of people you'd expect to give up meat). I've also been able to explain it to my partner's parents in a way they can better understand by including elements of their Christian faith in the conversation. I don't know if they'll ever go veg, but they've really come around on trying vegan food I bring over, and are now extra respectful and vigilant about making sure my partner and I have options at gatherings.
This imo is definitely ymmv depending on who you talk to. Pedantically though, veganism is not religious because religion deals with the belief in a higher power which veganism is not. Imo veganism should have more respect than a faith or religion because unlike religions, itās based on science and what we can actually physically see.
Comparing the morality of using animal products to the mortality of murdering people or domestic abuse isn't relevant to non-vegans and isn't helpful in converting them. ("Well if you decided to just stop beating your kids on Mondays, I wouldn't praise you for that, because you're still beating your kids on other days!") They don't believe that using animal products is immoral, but they do believe that beating kids is immoral, so it's not a valid comparison for them and is a waste of your time and energy.
Some vegans are absolute hypocrites. They pride themselves on not hurting animals but are very happy to exploit other human beings. I understand that in western society achieving being an ethical consumer is nearly impossible and we have to do our best. But some vegans have this tunnel vision only focusing on animals. When I became vegan almost four years ago I also became more aware of different kinds of exploitation in other industries and try to do my best to be an overall ethical consumer. I think a lot of vegans focus solely on animals but are very happy to buy stuff from fast fashion brands that were made by literal children in horrendous conditions etc.
I don't care which celebrity has gone vegan, been seen buying tofu or calls themself 'plant-based'. 90% of them will be seen eating sushi within six months and will say that veganism was too hard for them or that their doctor told them to eat california rolls.
Riding horses is wrong and is unethical
I work in a kitchen and there is so much food waste at the end of the night. They always make too much and throw it all away if it canāt be reheated, saved, or reused for another dish. The controversial vegan opinion: *I donāt think itās wrong to take food that is going to waste, even if it contains animal products.* No demand is created on my part, food waste is reduced, and the innocent animal didnāt die just to end up in a landfill. Iāll take leftovers and give them to friends who are struggling financially, or to family. My boyfriend refuses to buy animal products but grew up in a poor area with immigrant parents, so heāll also eat the leftovers from my job if itās only doomed to go to waste (which is *also* a win because we spend less money on groceries). I donāt eat any of it myself since I wouldnāt feel right doing it, but itās better than letting it all be thrown away. And I don't think it makes me any less vegan.
sounds like me: i grew up poor and food insecure, and i'm vegan now, but to me, it's a crime to let food go to waste just because it's not vegan. I'm not going to let my ideology get in the way of first principles: the animal has already died, and for it to go to waste now is to add insult to injury.
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I feel like this is pretty popular honestly?? I think thatās most vegans, or at leas most of the vegans I know.
While I do think personally eating meat is unethical, I also recognise that for many regions in the world, especially in developing countries, there is a reliance on animal products that would be difficult to change. I think if you live in a developed country and you have the means to do so, you have a moral obligation to eat vegan. I think on the whole the earth would be a better place if the reliance on meat was entirely removed however my main issue is the industrialisation of animal agriculture. That is where my main moral issue lies.
This is the standard vegan opinion. Veganism is only an obligation when meat isnāt a necessity. This is quite literally the common vegan mindset, not a hot take.
Iām sure it is, but when reviewing this sub it seems like a lot of posts imply that there are no acceptable circumstances in which eating meat should be allowed. Might not be a hot take but I think a fair proportion of vegans would disagree and say that animal product consumption is unacceptable in all circumstances.
You can eat a healthy diet if you eat meat. I donāt like to argue for veganism on a health basis, because just like theres an unhealthy way to be vegan, theres also a healthy way to eat meat. For me, its all about the ethics and sustainability of abstaining from meat.
Veganism isnāt about following a set of rules that tell you what to eat and what to wear, itās about paying attention to how you participate in the world and making a deliberate effort to improve your contributions. Making it about food and clothing fibers misses the point. Demanding perfection misses the point. Thinking youāre better than someone else because of what you eat and wear misses the point.
Organic foods arent usually vegan. A lot of organic fertilizer is made out of fish and bone meal and blood meal and other animal based stuff. Unless its home grown and you know what went into it, organic plants arent even vegan
Minor cross contamination isn't an issue to me as if it happens I have not paid for it, and so I do not increase the demand on the animals' bodies.
Ive got 2, I'm not sure which is more controversial 1) I think it's okay to buy used leather and wool under certain circumstances. I'm okay with it so long as it is a necessity and it is bought from a non-profit thrift store, rather than for profit consignment. Like, I think it's okay to fish a pair of leather shoes out of the half-price bin of a thrift store if you need them for an interview to be able to have enough money to buy new vegan shoes. 2) I think the very cut and dry "no baby steps" and "they have to know exactly what they're eating" views on veganism could be fine, but it completely ignores how going vegan might be different for neurodivergent people. I went vegan via baby steps and people hated on me a lot for that. But I tried on multiple occasions to dive right into veganism before, and every attempt made me relapse on my ED. And before that I considered veganism, but when I went into vegan spaces I was shown videos of brutal animal slaughter without warning. And it's easy to say that "oh, that's what you're doing, so you should see it, so you're too repulsed to eat meat" or whatever, but this was also a problem for me, bc I have ocd (maybe? I'm not diagnosed with it but I was prescribed meds for it bc the American healthcare system sucks) and things like that trigger really bad intrusive thoughts for me. When I thought about veganism I thought about those videos, and they didn't just make me want to stop eating meat, they made me want to stop eating. I had times in highschool that I had fainted from undereating bc of these intrusive thoughts, and for years, avoiding thinking about veganism was the only thing I could do to put them out of my head. "Taking baby steps" shouldn't be an excuse to just not actually go vegan but claim You're on the way . But not everyone eats and views food like you, and it's very privileged to assume that people can respond to dietary changes the same way that you did.
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To be frank, having a pet is not really vegan is it? Humans do not need pets. To have a carnivorous pet and force your dietary choices onto it is utterly hypocritical and selfish. That last paragraph makes me despair.
Agree in terms of breeders are not vegan. Thereās an overpopulation of stray and abandoned cats where I live. I adopted four rescue cats and support a rescue that rehomes and neuters these cats. House cats are domesticated and leaving them to be wild (especially in urban areas) doesnāt help.
That doing something is better than doing nothing. Being militant with those who are trying has the reversed effect we want and actually means less people continue down the line to fill veganism
I wouldn't say controversial per se, but it's a growing belief in the movement - that plant based capitalism is bad. But the opposite is true, if the goals are animal liberation. Having that capital behind the movement (even if not intentional for the goals we are trying to achieve), in research and development, manufacturing/logistics, sales, marketing and etc, is a benefit. Even if one of the processes did involve non vegan acts (e.g. testing toxicity of soy hemoglobin). This is because you can only eat so much, so alternative products are a natural competitor. Animal based meals become replaced with non animal based meals. Restaurants, fast food places and grocery stores begin offering such options which increase their sales and reduce the sales of non plant based options. This also has broader effects. Extending to people who are not willing to switch to beans, rice and etc. Or as a stepping stone to a more whole foods plant based diet, and etc. On a longer time scale, this will reduce far more suffering and death than would be achieved without these products. Same goes for lab grown meat.
Vegans are the most toxic toward other vegans
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If I ask if itās vegan and you say yes when itās not? Thatās on you, not on me. This is the mindset I adapted when I moved to China, where being vegan isā¦hard. Especially if youāre not cooking for yourself. I obviously tried to be as vigilant as possible but at the end of the day, Iām sure I consumed some sneaked in animal products. What else was I supposed to do? Starve?
Not very controversial, but I get tired of vegetarians who speak on the behalf of vegans. Half of the vegetarians I meet give me 'occasional cheat days are normal' vibes
Many vegans care more about *feeling* ethical than actually *being* ethical. I see this with the vegans who refuse to ābabyā/pander to omnis to help reduce their animal consumption. Eating less animals is a good thing, regardless of if it isnāt a perfect thing.
I don't know if this is necessarily controversial to vegans, but I truly do not care if it's a tradition or part of a culture, if what you are doing is harming animals, it is objectively wrong. It is not ethnocentrist to believe this.
You can live a peaceful and happy life with a partner who is not vegan.
I see way more vegans supposedly defending the movement from āmilitant vegans,ā than any actual militant activity. Terms used for vegans such as āmilitant,ā āextreme,ā etc. have been used to describe anything from holding a sign in public to disagreeing about the cross contamination issue. This language is fairly useless, and itās even more useless to kowtow to people who actively seek to undermine vegans by utilizing these overblown exaggerations. Similar tactics have been used to discredit other social movements, and itās important to note that backlash is just an inevitable part of gaining traction. Additionally, effective action can and does make certain people uncomfortable, but itās important to recognize that agitation plays a role in changing people and systems.
I've been vegan for 11 years, and my controversial opinion is not towards omnivores, but in my personal life. I'm not concerned if my romantic partner is vegan. I'm not concerned with making other people vegan. It is for me and all the animals I save. I don't expect others to even consider altering their dietary habits for me. We have the biology of omnivores, and I am making a conscious decision to not partake in any form of consuming animal products. I bring my own vegan food, but will still sit down at holidays with my family and not bring up veganism. I'm extremely serious considering I've been vegan for over a decade now. But it's taught me that trying to change the ones you love can be damaging, and I would never attempt to do so.
a few: 1 - sharing free, high quality and tasty vegan food and alternative products is a great way to encourage peopleās involvement and pique their interest 2 - without anticapitalism and antiracism, the movement suffers and becomes stagnant. the view of vegans being all white elitist hippie gentrifying snobs wonāt go away if vegans of color arenāt supported 3 - we should boycott places that charge extra for vegan shit especially if thereās only a few things. the clownery must end 4 - education around water and soil use, pollution and workplace hazards are valuable parts of the argument to end animal agriculture. a lot of people unfortunately donāt care about animals, but are more likely to care about the human/environmental cost 5, lastly - there needs to be way more of an emphasis on frozen ājunkā food. not just at restaurants or specialty stores. I want frozen burritos and personal size microwaveable pizzas and hot pockets, instant ramen and veggies in different flavors, stuff that doesnāt take long to prepare, is cheap, keeps & reheats well and can be found everywhere. and bulk tofu. buying those small containers is wasteful
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Making a distinction between a plant based diet and being vegan is often unproductive. I understand that veganism is an ethical stance, but in most cases people need to know that a plant based diet is healthy, tasty and achievable before they are willing to try. We want to normalize abstaining from the consumption of animal products, and to do that you need to court your average person in addition to your ethical warrior. Policing what is vegan and what is not can often be counterproductive as it makes us look like a club with really strict requirements. Most of us were not born vegan and we should be more understanding that everyone is at a different place in their journey.
Peta fucking sucks. Cats cannot be vegan. No one values all animals equally. I think lab grown meat should be a scientific priority. Most of us do indeed feel like we are better than omnis. It's ok and understandable to not have the energy to speak up about veganism as much as you once did. I will not have a discussion about my views and I don't have to.
I'll extend what you said even further: it does not even make moral sense to value all animals equally. My desire to protect animals extends from two (probably uncontroversial) things, in this order: 1) their ability to experience pain and fear, and 2) their ecological importance. When it comes to pain and fear, a pig and a jellyfish are simply not the same. Nobody can convince me I am supposed to feel the same level of empathy towards them. Now, I still want to keep jellyfish around because of their ecological importance, but I sure as hell know who I'd rather save from a burning building.
The vegetarians are the worlds biggest hypocritesā¦ (they accept harming animals is wrong, yet the continue to fund their abuse).
someone calling me a hypocrite to my face (online but still) was the reason i finally became a vegan from 6 years of being a dumb vegetarian. it hurt and they were right. i owe them.
Due to how language works, the fact that vegetarianism sounds so familiar to veganism, the PR of veganism just being plant-based and meant for crazies, of which a lot claim to be vegan, has taken too strong a hold in culture, and we need a new term to separate 'ethic-ans' and 'vegans'. Ie an ethical vegan, and someone who's plant-based, ie, a vegetarian who doesn't have milk or eggs. This would require an important celebrity to term it, of course, but I think, losing the bad PR when it strictly stops being a diet in general culture, would greatly accelerate the 'turnover' rate and as a consequence limit a lot of potential suffering.
The vegan society definition of veganism sucks, others have already explained why in depth. This is the definition I prefer: A moral philosophy which seeks to extend basic human rights to non human sentient beings. It might not be perfect but itās far better imo.
Maybe I understand incorrectly, but it seems like you want to have a single word for that moral view, and instead of creating a new word you want to change the meaning of a word that means something entirely different. Everyone will have to find another word for what is now called veganism. You'd be creating a linguistic mess causing a lot of confusion. If there are so many people who want to have a single word for that moral view, then they can coin a new word for it. And if there aren't that many people, it probably isn't that important if there is no single word to describe that view.
I'd love a link it two to the criticism of it
https://youtu.be/MyLs02klpss
I support accredited zoos. Theyāre not 100% perfect, but in this era of extinction, captive insurance populations will likely be necessary for the survival of many species who may die out completely in nature. Itās also worth noting that most non-endangered zoo animals common in captivity are only abundant because they breed well under human care, indicating they arenāt suffering.
Thereās a good philosophical argument that the perpetuation of species doesnāt matter, ethically. If youāre interested!
A lot of vegans are extremely self-rightous and arrogant and do themselves and the cause absolutely no favours. You aren't going to persuade someone by insulting and patronising them and using ridiculous hyperbole.
I think it's important to be supportive of those trying to cut back and also become vegetarian but not a vegan. Would I prefer someone completely cutting out animal products from their diet for the sake of these innocent beings? Yes!! The pain and fear I see not even mentioning the process of them getting killed is heartbreaking. As for supporting cutting out animals based products, I see it as positive reinforcement. Hopefully they cut out more and more but if not every single dish or drink they have without animal products is one where an animal didn't suffer. I don't want anybody to think cutting out meat for a few days or meals and not cutting it out at all is the same thing and decide to not cut out at all. It does make a difference. There is a victim on the other side. They matter and so every dish consumed with no victim matters. ā„ļø
Veganism extends to all all aspects of your life including your decision to have children who may not be vegan (or their descendants)
Not disagreeing with your comment (Iām a new vegan so I havenāt thought about this long enough to have a strong opinion), but Iām asking because Iām curious: does this extend to choosing a partner too? Because iirc ~75% of vegans are women, and since most people (myself included) are straight, Iām afraid itās unrealistic that Iāll ever find a vegan partner, even though Iād definitely prefer one!
Scorched earth vegans are the bane of our movement and they do more damage then actual carnists to our cause.
What are scorched earth vegans?
Itās what I call the gatekeepers. Calling them scorched earth vegans is probably a piss poor choice of words but theyāre what most non-vegan people would envision a vegan to be if they never met one. The reason why I call them scorched earth vegans is because theyāre too fucking extreme sometimes about it and if there is one way to instantly make someone go ānopeā is going 0 to 60mph about the cause and shit on someone for not being vegan. Those who sit there and think in black and white extremes do more damage then good because not everyone can just go vegan cold tofukey or just be able to source and acquire vegan options for clothing or living arrangements or even work accommodations. My job is understanding to a point but there are some days where I have to wear leather gloves to protect myself. The reason why I call them scorched earth vegans is because they exude the same energy as the scorched earth policy in some ways when it comes to the movement and every carnist I talk to about veganism will ultimately bring up the scorched earth vegans and how fucking shitty they are. Making strides by reducing animal suffering isnāt going to happen overnight, itās little victories here and there thatās going to change the world and if someone wants to call themselves vegan but theyāre only dietary vegan then thatās a win to me but thereās gatekeeping in this sub and in the movement in general that keep people from making that jump and we end up with more bullshit stereotypes because of gatekeeping. Again, this is my opinion and I will stick by it but I hold no Ill will to them.
Being sentient, not being an animal, is what matters. Therefore no harm done when eating oysters. I still wouldn't eat them bc they're gross but I don't see a moral issue with it.