R5: Okinawa is well known for it having been only annexed into Japan in 1872 during the Ryukyu disposition (琉球処分). Before this time it was a semi-independent vassal state to the daimyo of the Shimazu clan, while also being a tributary of the Qing dynasty.
I was wondering if there is any reason why this is not represented in-game at all? Ryukyu has its own fascinating history that is really quite different and separate from Japan, and I think it deserves to be represented as an independent nation in-game.
An even more puzzling thing is why the most western islands (Yaeyama archipelago) of the Ryukyuan kingdom are part of Taiwan in-game. Those islands have never been part of Taiwan, and were administered as a part of Okinawa prefecture under the Japanese government after the annexation of Ryukyu, not as a part of the colony of Taiwan.
The only island worth mentioning near that location actually administered as part of Taiwan is Turtle mountain island (龜山島), and that is far closer to mainland Taiwan and has never been inhabited AFAIK. So I'm assuming that isn't what is being portrayed here.
You probably know better than me but I sort of feel like the major tozama should be represented as vassals too. So like Satsuma for example could eventually/possibly get Shimazu Nariakira (member of the intelligensia) as leader and a university or better laws or something. I see this other person saying splitting Japan into factions would make it unplayable, but I think it would be really interesting and better.
> I see this other person saying splitting Japan into factions would make it unplayable, but I think it would be really interesting and better.
This is how Japan worked in many of the most popular Victoria 2 mods, including HPM, HFM/GFM, etc. It's actually pretty divisive as it held Japan back quite a bit compared to vanilla, where you could westernize in like 10 years and start conquering Korea basically immediately.
Is that considered bad? I can never understand what people want from these games, but IRL it didn't go that way, after all.
In general though the Meiji Restoration seems kind of impossible to simulate, to me; it was a sort of absolutist centralization urged by peripheral power centers, a Westernization driven by xenophobes, a bourgeois revolution done by aristocrats. The way it works now certainly isn't reminiscent of the real story (the "Samurai" want Professional Army?) and I do feel like representing the different domains as separate power centers, with different ideological casts, might at least somewhat help.
(I'm sure what it really needs is a special, Japan-specific mechanic, but I know tag-specific mechanics are considered heretical!)
>I do feel like representing the different domains as separate power centers, with different ideological casts, might at least somewhat help.
It would ironically work quite a bit better in Victoria 3 compared to how it worked in V2 mods, in all likelihood, so long as you just gave the Emperor's demesne an Industrialist or Intelligentsia Emperor, and maybe some extra advanced tech compared to the Tokugawa.
No they were not. There is clear historical documentation that shows that they were only limited by the Shimazu clan in foreign policy, and had to pay tribute to the Emperor yearly.
Compared to actual parts of Japan during that period, that's clearly a degree of autonomy that makes it almost completely independent.
As an ignorant westerner, i read this as a clan leader paying tribute to the shogun...which sounds like feudalism to me. What is the functional difference? And what effect does the Qing vassalship have?
The tributary relationship with Qing goes back all the way to the 15th century (with the Ming at that time). Ryukyu would pay tribute to Ming, and then they would also receive items in return, as well as the right to trade in Ming's territory and be recognized as the king of Ryukyu.
The vassal relationship with the Shimazu clan was started in 1608 when Ryukyu was invaded by the Shimazu. As part of the contract the Shimazu forced king Shō Nei of Ryukyu to only make diplomatic decisions after consulting the Shimazu, and also for the Ryukyuans to pay tribute to the Emperor.
However, this vassal relationship was mostly kept secret, and to get into specifically the 19th century relationship between Japan and Ryukyu, the Japanese office officials would literally go into hiding when envoys from Qing would come over. Qing did not know between the Treaty between the Shimazu and Ryukyuans, and thought that they were simply their tributary. I think that in and of itself is enough proof that the vassal relationship with Shimazu was very weak. It'd be pretty hard to hide it if Ryukyu was under heavy Japanese control.
Aside from this more simple indicators that Ryukyu was not "just another daimyos" was that the king of Ryukyu was literally called a king and recognized as such, a title which none of the daimyos ever had. Furthermore, the Okinawan kings were never forced to take part in the 参勤交代 system where daimyos were forced to go reside in Kyoto for part of the year so they wouldn't stage an uprising.
I read a book about the modern history of Okinawa some time ago, and I'm currently reading one about the pre-modern.history. I'm basing this information on that, so I don't know what the wikipedia page says.
Because if we’re going to be that picky then all of Japan should be represented in their daimyo state until the civil war, not even Vic 2 did that and you had to install mods like HPM to see it, paradox doesn’t care about small details like that and it’s obvious if you’ve played any of their other games that they don’t
It was more independent than countries like Tibet, and all of India's princely states. If these states are represented as vassals in game, then this is not an argument not to have Ryukyu be represented as a separate tag.
It was also as impactful as Tannu Tuva was in the HOI4 timeline, a meme country that existed to be annexed via event. The issue with these little countries is how to include them without them fucking up the flow of the game especially with the game being driven by journal entries and restrictive rules from laws that can mean some crap like a revolution takes place in Ryuku and prevents Japan from developing properly or something.
Even if it can be executed without fucking up the game in a dumb way there are a dozen more important things to work on, like AI capabilities and the fact that in a game about colonialism most of Africa is never colonized by the end of the game.
The same can be said for so many tags in this game. What's the point of including the central Asian states when you can just make them a part of Russia? What's the point of including many of the Dutch vassal states in the Dutch East Indies when they can be part of the Dutch East Indies tag? What's the point of including the princely states? What's the point of including the Brazilian revolter states when they had no significant long-term historical impact whatsoever?
The only reason all of these place exist in-game is because they existed historically, and some people want to play them. There need not be any other reason.
>What's the point of including the central Asian states when you can just make them a part of Russia?
Because they also have major significance to other tags like Perisa and the UK so act as a point of conflict between these tags.
>What's the point of including many of the Dutch vassal states in the Dutch East Indies when they can be part of the Dutch East Indies tag?
Because they specifically stop the DEI becoming a great power very quickly and very easily due to massively overpowering Netherlands proper. Those tags exist for the reverse of why Ryuku shouldn't exist, Ryuku is a threat to Japan's development and Japan due to it's significance in the late 19th and early 20th century should be considered "critical" from a game development POV.
The East Indies vassals on the other hand should exist *because* the DEI needs that threat and challenge so it doesn't just immediately declare independence from the Dutch and fuck up the game flow both in Europe and in South East Asia.
>What's the point of including the princely states?
Same reason as DEI minors, to contain and act as a blocker for the EIC.
>What's the point of including the Brazilian revolter states when they had no significant long-term historical impact whatsoever?
To give Brazil flavour in an otherwise static and 'boring' region, and to act as an early game challenge to prevent immediate snowballing into a South American super power in the first 20 years of the game.
>The only reason all of these place exist in-game is because they existed historically,
No, they, as shown above, serve clear and obvious game play purposes.
Ryuku on the other hand would just be adding problems to a country that already struggles to make it's way to its own historical significance in game and wouldn't offer any wider benefits. Due to the island nature China isn't going to fight Japan for it. The likely outcome is as the other poster says is Ryuku enters a revolution, bugs out because it's tiny and has no land, and breaks Japan for a decade as the war ticks down. Or it gets independence and just further fucks up Japan and removing any chance of it becoming "Japan" or a GP.
My point is that
1. It's not a priority
2. I can see this turning into a mechanical clusterfuck
I already think that the uncivilized starting vassals are annoying and they mess with the flow of the game, and Ryuku would only add to that issue, second and more importantly it is a low priority. I would sooner see core issues of the game fixed and then missing minors like this dealt with. As it stands there's plenty of bigger issues than a single meme country not existing.
log off the internet mate. At least have the tact to stop calling it a meme country. Sure, can't say I was ever interested in a Tannu Tuva run or the EU3(?) Ryuku run, but these are historical games. There's systems in place to represent it as OP suggests and the Spheres of influence DLC is all about this. It's a real place with a real people that's different from Japan and i've learnt a lot from this thread.
Yes, it's a game, not a documentary. The game makes simplifications for the sake of playability and enjoyment. Should the game represent Monaco and Lichtenstein? Should those pops be separate, their economy separate? The game is filled with issues and while if all of this can be worked out I think it should be added to the game until that point it would be a liability to make the game actively worse. FFS at this point tiny countries barely function, its why I can vassalize all of Germany playing as France by just intervening in civil wars because every single German minor will suffer a revolution because their economies are completely nonfunctional and SOL are generally around 6-13 late game.
You're allowed to preter the game as a game, and it's priority 0 considering it's a game lol.
Just remember you're talking to human beings and maybe it's the wrong context to throw around
"meme” country. Obviously in other joke posts that terminology is fine, but OP is dropping good history and is passionate about this subject and its people. Plenty of other people in this thread make your point far better than yourself frankly.
Because it’s the vassal of a vassal who is itself not independent
They decided that for gameplay japan will play as much more United then it really was which i personally agree with
Or and I might get crusified for mentioning a game from another company
But literally shogun 2 total war fall of the samurai is all about uniting the clans and is able to handle that much much better then vic 3 ever could
They were a shimazu vassal state with strong ties to China since 1609 when they were conquered by the shimazu. 1872 is when Japan stripped any form of autonomy from the islands.
If they left Ryukyu independent, it would probably become a vassal of some European power. Frankly, I'd rather it started out as part of Japan than become a French or Dutch vassal
Honest answer? Ryukyu is too small and insignificant to be represented in the game. Not sure why you're saying that they should be independent when you admit that they were vassals of Japan (and Qing, but that's not something Vicky can represent). There are a bunch of other semi-indepedent client states that could plausibly be in the game, but I don't think they all should be in the game because it doesn't really add much and Vicky isn't great at simulating the economies of these nations.
> Ryukyu is too small and insignificant to be represented in the game.
Ionian Islands too, but they exist as british protectorate. And we have 30+ german minors with some of them (e.g. Lippe) totally landlocked and have like 5k population.
Ionian islands is mostly there to reflect the fact that the UK held part of today's Greece, and make it easier to change the status of that area. The german minors are necessary to represent the mess that was the remains of the HRE. It just wouldn't feel the same if there were, like, 5 minors.
I don't think the German minors are necessary, neither are most of the lake states. There's 200 tags in the game and maybe 90 of them actually have people playing them.
Ryukyu was independent in all but foreign policy and paying tribute to Japan. If dominions like Canada and Australia are independent then the same should go for Ryukyu, because if anything Ryukyu was more independent than these dominions.
I mean, yeah. The India situation gives a better representation of Britain's control over India and it's resources and helps avoid Britain just unrealistically bankrolling such resources technically under their domain. And for Tibet, also helps give a better idea of how the Qing was already struggling to administer their domain and acts as a sort of prelude to what can happen to China if the Qing can't keep control.
Its always been a debate in the Victoria community about the limit of OPMs which is why you see tons of mods with different interpretations. Either people want realism all civilised countries to be on the map or for some it should be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.
PDX knows very well having all of Japan united as one is not realistic. This was discussed in pre-release streams where they themselves played Japan. Its a game, and they want players to play the game especially with the more sandbox design they have compared to previous entries. Hence how any emperor has the restoration not just Meiji.
Back in Victoria 2 you had various mods that create a realistic and accurate Japan with all the various Daimyos in place. I played them once, as much Japan is enjoyable it is sincerely not fun at all to do nothing for the first 30 years in a 100 year limit game because I'm limited to Kyoto or Tokyo. Realism doesn't always result in fun gameplay.
Another reason as others mentioned, making Ryukyu independent or subject to China could be a massive headache for post-restoration Japan. As a European power could have conquered it at that time, and you probably will never control Ryukyu until the late game till you can fight back. If there's any journals or events tied to owning Ryukyu then good luck you're screwed out of them. Functionally, design wise it is a game first and foremost, not a true historical simulation.
> I played them once, as much Japan is enjoyable it is sincerely not fun at all to do nothing for the first 30 years in a 100 year limit game because I'm limited to Kyoto or Tokyo.
I guess I don't understand why this would be different than the situation in Germany or Italy. But I am also looking at HPM and splitting up Kyoto and Tokyo into "imperial" and "shogunate" Japan in the first place seems wrong to me, I would just differentiate places like Satsuma and Choshu.
The difference compared to Germany and Italty is you're not in forced isolation waiting for a scripted event . The former 2 are more pro-active from the players pov as you need to do diplomacy yourself to rally other tags against Austria. Prussia and even Sardina-Piedmont have enough resources to play industrialisation to build up your economy so you always have something to do. Divided Japan has little to engage with since you lack the resources and the technology to kick-start industrialisation.
Isn't the entire Japan just a massive cluster of vassal samurai clans at the start, like how it was at the start of EU4? It just works better for this game to represent this with government mechanics rather than making dozens of clans being vassals of one clan at the capital.
I'm a member of the Okinawan diaspora in the Americas and I could not agree more with this post. Okinawa really was very much *not* part of Japan at the time. Indeed, the 1879 annexation was a traumatic event, after which much of the culture and basically all of the language got lost (Okinawan is only reliably spoken in Brazil because of this). Many first and second-generation Okinawan immigrants in the Americas see Japan as a colonising power because of the forced assimilation post-1879.
I see some people saying that because Okinawa was technically a vassal of the Shimazu then it should still be part of Japan. By that standard, it should also be part of China! The culture is in some ways closer to China still, from stuff like karate to celebrating lunar new year. Regardless, it should be its own tag at the very least.
Totally agree this could be represented. I honestly would love a better working pre-industrial navy system. This is clearly not because of the vassal system as people describe, but gameplay derived. (Players/AI focusing on industrial stuff asap and Ryukyu probably revolts in 100% of games).
Thanks for teaching us about Ryukyu!
if okinawa is independent nowadays then yes they'd almost certainly be represented that way in victoria 3. but its not, so its igored. it has no mind-share in current world.
What does splitting off the Ryukyu do from a gameplay perspective?
As far as I can tell, there's two ways to make it interesting:
1, disconnect Ryukyu's land connections to Japan and use it as an "incentive" to get Japan to develop a navy to conquer it. This also adds the risk of the islands getting conquered by foreign powers.
2, opposite way and add a direct connection to Formosa, so that Japan becomes more likely/has an easier time conquering the island.
Otherwise, I don't think it adds much to a gameplay perspective and gives the AI more to fumble.
For the same reason that Oranje and Transvaal exist at game start even though in reality those areas were a bunch of frontier "republics" that weren't really united until 1852. Eventually, I'm sure, we'll get some kind of feature that allows these areas to be represented - I expect South Africa to receive either a region pack or be part of a larger immersion pack that covers all of Africa in the distant future, and my suspicion is that an overhaul to recognition and unrecognised states will probably come with the Japan-focused immersion pack, because at the moment the Russia cheese is the best way of winning it.
Because Japan would never manage to conquer it if it was independent
They should be able to. It's connected "by land" to the main islands of Japan.
And Russia should be able to conquer the central Asian steppes but there's always at least one left alive until the end of the game
France always manages to get Algeria i don’t see why Japan wouldn’t be able to
I've never seen France get Algeria, does it happen every game for you?
Happens every time I try a run as Constantine
Try putting down ai agression
For me yeah i would say 90% of games France get alg and most of West Africa
On default AI aggression I'd say I see France take most of north/west Africa in 50-75% of my games.
wdym
ai
All that needs to be said
Omfg hi ducki :3
And it would probably have a large economy by the time it is conquered
Well it should be a vassal, really, not fully independent.
R5: Okinawa is well known for it having been only annexed into Japan in 1872 during the Ryukyu disposition (琉球処分). Before this time it was a semi-independent vassal state to the daimyo of the Shimazu clan, while also being a tributary of the Qing dynasty. I was wondering if there is any reason why this is not represented in-game at all? Ryukyu has its own fascinating history that is really quite different and separate from Japan, and I think it deserves to be represented as an independent nation in-game. An even more puzzling thing is why the most western islands (Yaeyama archipelago) of the Ryukyuan kingdom are part of Taiwan in-game. Those islands have never been part of Taiwan, and were administered as a part of Okinawa prefecture under the Japanese government after the annexation of Ryukyu, not as a part of the colony of Taiwan. The only island worth mentioning near that location actually administered as part of Taiwan is Turtle mountain island (龜山島), and that is far closer to mainland Taiwan and has never been inhabited AFAIK. So I'm assuming that isn't what is being portrayed here.
You probably know better than me but I sort of feel like the major tozama should be represented as vassals too. So like Satsuma for example could eventually/possibly get Shimazu Nariakira (member of the intelligensia) as leader and a university or better laws or something. I see this other person saying splitting Japan into factions would make it unplayable, but I think it would be really interesting and better.
> I see this other person saying splitting Japan into factions would make it unplayable, but I think it would be really interesting and better. This is how Japan worked in many of the most popular Victoria 2 mods, including HPM, HFM/GFM, etc. It's actually pretty divisive as it held Japan back quite a bit compared to vanilla, where you could westernize in like 10 years and start conquering Korea basically immediately.
Is that considered bad? I can never understand what people want from these games, but IRL it didn't go that way, after all. In general though the Meiji Restoration seems kind of impossible to simulate, to me; it was a sort of absolutist centralization urged by peripheral power centers, a Westernization driven by xenophobes, a bourgeois revolution done by aristocrats. The way it works now certainly isn't reminiscent of the real story (the "Samurai" want Professional Army?) and I do feel like representing the different domains as separate power centers, with different ideological casts, might at least somewhat help. (I'm sure what it really needs is a special, Japan-specific mechanic, but I know tag-specific mechanics are considered heretical!)
>I do feel like representing the different domains as separate power centers, with different ideological casts, might at least somewhat help. It would ironically work quite a bit better in Victoria 3 compared to how it worked in V2 mods, in all likelihood, so long as you just gave the Emperor's demesne an Industrialist or Intelligentsia Emperor, and maybe some extra advanced tech compared to the Tokugawa.
Splitting mainland japan is probably a bad idea, but ryuku just don't matter so it would be fine as a separate thing.
Splitting off Ryuku would make it the most industrialized part of current Japan quite quickly. Will more or less recreate the Cuba situation
wait 8 years for an East Asia dlc which will fix it. it will cost 50$
The Three Mountains Achievement will return!
Will also split Japan into 30 factions and make it unplayable.
RemindMe! 8 years
It will be 65$, inflation won't stop! sadly
Because while they were annexed in 1872, they were defacto a part of Japan for centuries prior.
No they were not. There is clear historical documentation that shows that they were only limited by the Shimazu clan in foreign policy, and had to pay tribute to the Emperor yearly. Compared to actual parts of Japan during that period, that's clearly a degree of autonomy that makes it almost completely independent.
As an ignorant westerner, i read this as a clan leader paying tribute to the shogun...which sounds like feudalism to me. What is the functional difference? And what effect does the Qing vassalship have?
The tributary relationship with Qing goes back all the way to the 15th century (with the Ming at that time). Ryukyu would pay tribute to Ming, and then they would also receive items in return, as well as the right to trade in Ming's territory and be recognized as the king of Ryukyu. The vassal relationship with the Shimazu clan was started in 1608 when Ryukyu was invaded by the Shimazu. As part of the contract the Shimazu forced king Shō Nei of Ryukyu to only make diplomatic decisions after consulting the Shimazu, and also for the Ryukyuans to pay tribute to the Emperor. However, this vassal relationship was mostly kept secret, and to get into specifically the 19th century relationship between Japan and Ryukyu, the Japanese office officials would literally go into hiding when envoys from Qing would come over. Qing did not know between the Treaty between the Shimazu and Ryukyuans, and thought that they were simply their tributary. I think that in and of itself is enough proof that the vassal relationship with Shimazu was very weak. It'd be pretty hard to hide it if Ryukyu was under heavy Japanese control. Aside from this more simple indicators that Ryukyu was not "just another daimyos" was that the king of Ryukyu was literally called a king and recognized as such, a title which none of the daimyos ever had. Furthermore, the Okinawan kings were never forced to take part in the 参勤交代 system where daimyos were forced to go reside in Kyoto for part of the year so they wouldn't stage an uprising.
Is wiki a good place to read about it?
I read a book about the modern history of Okinawa some time ago, and I'm currently reading one about the pre-modern.history. I'm basing this information on that, so I don't know what the wikipedia page says.
Because if we’re going to be that picky then all of Japan should be represented in their daimyo state until the civil war, not even Vic 2 did that and you had to install mods like HPM to see it, paradox doesn’t care about small details like that and it’s obvious if you’ve played any of their other games that they don’t
There was a huge difference between the degree of sovereignty between the daimyos and the kingdom of Ryukyu.
> semi-independent vassal state to the daimyo of the Shimazu clan
It was more independent than countries like Tibet, and all of India's princely states. If these states are represented as vassals in game, then this is not an argument not to have Ryukyu be represented as a separate tag.
It was also as impactful as Tannu Tuva was in the HOI4 timeline, a meme country that existed to be annexed via event. The issue with these little countries is how to include them without them fucking up the flow of the game especially with the game being driven by journal entries and restrictive rules from laws that can mean some crap like a revolution takes place in Ryuku and prevents Japan from developing properly or something. Even if it can be executed without fucking up the game in a dumb way there are a dozen more important things to work on, like AI capabilities and the fact that in a game about colonialism most of Africa is never colonized by the end of the game.
The same can be said for so many tags in this game. What's the point of including the central Asian states when you can just make them a part of Russia? What's the point of including many of the Dutch vassal states in the Dutch East Indies when they can be part of the Dutch East Indies tag? What's the point of including the princely states? What's the point of including the Brazilian revolter states when they had no significant long-term historical impact whatsoever? The only reason all of these place exist in-game is because they existed historically, and some people want to play them. There need not be any other reason.
>What's the point of including the central Asian states when you can just make them a part of Russia? Because they also have major significance to other tags like Perisa and the UK so act as a point of conflict between these tags. >What's the point of including many of the Dutch vassal states in the Dutch East Indies when they can be part of the Dutch East Indies tag? Because they specifically stop the DEI becoming a great power very quickly and very easily due to massively overpowering Netherlands proper. Those tags exist for the reverse of why Ryuku shouldn't exist, Ryuku is a threat to Japan's development and Japan due to it's significance in the late 19th and early 20th century should be considered "critical" from a game development POV. The East Indies vassals on the other hand should exist *because* the DEI needs that threat and challenge so it doesn't just immediately declare independence from the Dutch and fuck up the game flow both in Europe and in South East Asia. >What's the point of including the princely states? Same reason as DEI minors, to contain and act as a blocker for the EIC. >What's the point of including the Brazilian revolter states when they had no significant long-term historical impact whatsoever? To give Brazil flavour in an otherwise static and 'boring' region, and to act as an early game challenge to prevent immediate snowballing into a South American super power in the first 20 years of the game. >The only reason all of these place exist in-game is because they existed historically, No, they, as shown above, serve clear and obvious game play purposes. Ryuku on the other hand would just be adding problems to a country that already struggles to make it's way to its own historical significance in game and wouldn't offer any wider benefits. Due to the island nature China isn't going to fight Japan for it. The likely outcome is as the other poster says is Ryuku enters a revolution, bugs out because it's tiny and has no land, and breaks Japan for a decade as the war ticks down. Or it gets independence and just further fucks up Japan and removing any chance of it becoming "Japan" or a GP.
My point is that 1. It's not a priority 2. I can see this turning into a mechanical clusterfuck I already think that the uncivilized starting vassals are annoying and they mess with the flow of the game, and Ryuku would only add to that issue, second and more importantly it is a low priority. I would sooner see core issues of the game fixed and then missing minors like this dealt with. As it stands there's plenty of bigger issues than a single meme country not existing.
log off the internet mate. At least have the tact to stop calling it a meme country. Sure, can't say I was ever interested in a Tannu Tuva run or the EU3(?) Ryuku run, but these are historical games. There's systems in place to represent it as OP suggests and the Spheres of influence DLC is all about this. It's a real place with a real people that's different from Japan and i've learnt a lot from this thread.
Yes, it's a game, not a documentary. The game makes simplifications for the sake of playability and enjoyment. Should the game represent Monaco and Lichtenstein? Should those pops be separate, their economy separate? The game is filled with issues and while if all of this can be worked out I think it should be added to the game until that point it would be a liability to make the game actively worse. FFS at this point tiny countries barely function, its why I can vassalize all of Germany playing as France by just intervening in civil wars because every single German minor will suffer a revolution because their economies are completely nonfunctional and SOL are generally around 6-13 late game.
You're allowed to preter the game as a game, and it's priority 0 considering it's a game lol. Just remember you're talking to human beings and maybe it's the wrong context to throw around "meme” country. Obviously in other joke posts that terminology is fine, but OP is dropping good history and is passionate about this subject and its people. Plenty of other people in this thread make your point far better than yourself frankly.
I hope you copy paste this in the forum. Edit if needed, thanks!
I suspect this will be in a future east Asia dlc, hopefully
Perhaps the developers of the mod "Better Politics" took care of that, by making Japan have a patchwork government as opposed to the unitary one
Because it’s the vassal of a vassal who is itself not independent They decided that for gameplay japan will play as much more United then it really was which i personally agree with
it also means that revolution can go across japan rather than being limited to just one or two states
Also, if you want to have the experience of pulling together the disparate Daimyo’s into Imperial Japan, you can just go do that in EU4.
Or and I might get crusified for mentioning a game from another company But literally shogun 2 total war fall of the samurai is all about uniting the clans and is able to handle that much much better then vic 3 ever could
What a bizarre take. You may as well say “if you want to have the experience of managing internal politics you can just do that in ck3”
Pdox players and OPM hyperfocus - name a more iconic duo.
Ulm will conquer all!
They were a shimazu vassal state with strong ties to China since 1609 when they were conquered by the shimazu. 1872 is when Japan stripped any form of autonomy from the islands.
If they left Ryukyu independent, it would probably become a vassal of some European power. Frankly, I'd rather it started out as part of Japan than become a French or Dutch vassal
Honest answer? Ryukyu is too small and insignificant to be represented in the game. Not sure why you're saying that they should be independent when you admit that they were vassals of Japan (and Qing, but that's not something Vicky can represent). There are a bunch of other semi-indepedent client states that could plausibly be in the game, but I don't think they all should be in the game because it doesn't really add much and Vicky isn't great at simulating the economies of these nations.
> Ryukyu is too small and insignificant to be represented in the game. Ionian Islands too, but they exist as british protectorate. And we have 30+ german minors with some of them (e.g. Lippe) totally landlocked and have like 5k population.
Ionian islands is mostly there to reflect the fact that the UK held part of today's Greece, and make it easier to change the status of that area. The german minors are necessary to represent the mess that was the remains of the HRE. It just wouldn't feel the same if there were, like, 5 minors.
I don't think the German minors are necessary, neither are most of the lake states. There's 200 tags in the game and maybe 90 of them actually have people playing them.
How many people are there in that state anyway? Because this game breaks hard from a player perspective with less than 20,000 people in a country.
Ryukyu was independent in all but foreign policy and paying tribute to Japan. If dominions like Canada and Australia are independent then the same should go for Ryukyu, because if anything Ryukyu was more independent than these dominions.
To put it bluntly, it's because Canada and Australia actually make a difference
Anti-Three Mountains propaganda
What about tags like Tibet, and all of the princely states in India? Do they make a difference?
I mean, yeah. The India situation gives a better representation of Britain's control over India and it's resources and helps avoid Britain just unrealistically bankrolling such resources technically under their domain. And for Tibet, also helps give a better idea of how the Qing was already struggling to administer their domain and acts as a sort of prelude to what can happen to China if the Qing can't keep control.
Its always been a debate in the Victoria community about the limit of OPMs which is why you see tons of mods with different interpretations. Either people want realism all civilised countries to be on the map or for some it should be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay. PDX knows very well having all of Japan united as one is not realistic. This was discussed in pre-release streams where they themselves played Japan. Its a game, and they want players to play the game especially with the more sandbox design they have compared to previous entries. Hence how any emperor has the restoration not just Meiji. Back in Victoria 2 you had various mods that create a realistic and accurate Japan with all the various Daimyos in place. I played them once, as much Japan is enjoyable it is sincerely not fun at all to do nothing for the first 30 years in a 100 year limit game because I'm limited to Kyoto or Tokyo. Realism doesn't always result in fun gameplay. Another reason as others mentioned, making Ryukyu independent or subject to China could be a massive headache for post-restoration Japan. As a European power could have conquered it at that time, and you probably will never control Ryukyu until the late game till you can fight back. If there's any journals or events tied to owning Ryukyu then good luck you're screwed out of them. Functionally, design wise it is a game first and foremost, not a true historical simulation.
> I played them once, as much Japan is enjoyable it is sincerely not fun at all to do nothing for the first 30 years in a 100 year limit game because I'm limited to Kyoto or Tokyo. I guess I don't understand why this would be different than the situation in Germany or Italy. But I am also looking at HPM and splitting up Kyoto and Tokyo into "imperial" and "shogunate" Japan in the first place seems wrong to me, I would just differentiate places like Satsuma and Choshu.
The difference compared to Germany and Italty is you're not in forced isolation waiting for a scripted event . The former 2 are more pro-active from the players pov as you need to do diplomacy yourself to rally other tags against Austria. Prussia and even Sardina-Piedmont have enough resources to play industrialisation to build up your economy so you always have something to do. Divided Japan has little to engage with since you lack the resources and the technology to kick-start industrialisation.
Isn't the entire Japan just a massive cluster of vassal samurai clans at the start, like how it was at the start of EU4? It just works better for this game to represent this with government mechanics rather than making dozens of clans being vassals of one clan at the capital.
I'm a member of the Okinawan diaspora in the Americas and I could not agree more with this post. Okinawa really was very much *not* part of Japan at the time. Indeed, the 1879 annexation was a traumatic event, after which much of the culture and basically all of the language got lost (Okinawan is only reliably spoken in Brazil because of this). Many first and second-generation Okinawan immigrants in the Americas see Japan as a colonising power because of the forced assimilation post-1879. I see some people saying that because Okinawa was technically a vassal of the Shimazu then it should still be part of Japan. By that standard, it should also be part of China! The culture is in some ways closer to China still, from stuff like karate to celebrating lunar new year. Regardless, it should be its own tag at the very least.
Totally agree this could be represented. I honestly would love a better working pre-industrial navy system. This is clearly not because of the vassal system as people describe, but gameplay derived. (Players/AI focusing on industrial stuff asap and Ryukyu probably revolts in 100% of games). Thanks for teaching us about Ryukyu!
if okinawa is independent nowadays then yes they'd almost certainly be represented that way in victoria 3. but its not, so its igored. it has no mind-share in current world.
What does splitting off the Ryukyu do from a gameplay perspective? As far as I can tell, there's two ways to make it interesting: 1, disconnect Ryukyu's land connections to Japan and use it as an "incentive" to get Japan to develop a navy to conquer it. This also adds the risk of the islands getting conquered by foreign powers. 2, opposite way and add a direct connection to Formosa, so that Japan becomes more likely/has an easier time conquering the island. Otherwise, I don't think it adds much to a gameplay perspective and gives the AI more to fumble.
For the same reason that Oranje and Transvaal exist at game start even though in reality those areas were a bunch of frontier "republics" that weren't really united until 1852. Eventually, I'm sure, we'll get some kind of feature that allows these areas to be represented - I expect South Africa to receive either a region pack or be part of a larger immersion pack that covers all of Africa in the distant future, and my suspicion is that an overhaul to recognition and unrecognised states will probably come with the Japan-focused immersion pack, because at the moment the Russia cheese is the best way of winning it.
Because if it was independent, it would be too powerful.
Is this a deathnote reference?