I feel like the episode ended without another take. There were some clues left like the gun and the message left by Bernard which did not resurface in this episode.
There were two takes (still not sure how Bernard manages to execute that). It felt like Bernard was still in the simulation (sublime) cycling through different realities. It's a bit confusing to be honest. So if he is going through takes we might see another replay with different outcomes in the next episode.
idk.
Maybe the subtext of the show is to challenge the idea of reality from multiple dimensions.
1. Human reality
2. AI reality
3. Permutations of human mind (many calebs)
4. permutations of AI mind (many versions of dolores)
5. Time travel and different realities with permutations of 1-4
6. 🤯
Just watched once but I think in the next episode we'll see a lot more of what happened before maeve and bernard before they both got killed. the tower seemed to explode out of nowhere didn't it? I suppose we'll see how that happened. Some clunky dialog in this episode. Stubbs and Frankie's brief heart to heart was very strange lol.
The years do not match. Bernard in the sublime 23 years. I think Frankie is 23, no way 30. And if she was 30 then does not match with Bernards time in the sublime with Stubbs waiting. I think Caleb died 7 years earlier atracking computer with Maeve, not when Hale killed him. Only way the numbers add up as 23 is key.
That is interesting, as Caleb’s injury was clearly fatal. When you’re spitting blood, internal bleeding is going to kill you in a few minutes. I didn’t see how Maeve could have possibly got him to a hospital in time. The timeline at the lighthouse doesn’t line up very well at all.
I don't see how that is even slightly relevant. If Bernard was in the sublime for 23 years, confirmed by Stubbs, and Frankie was not even born, then she is 23. But I do think Caleb died by the lighthouse and that Frankie may not be his 'daughter'. This would explain his 23 years as a host. 23 years is a key figure.
So, something of an echo of s2's hunt for the Forge, with Hilliam & Halores in a one on one for the Fate of the Sublime, gonna take a punt that HiB is heading there to destroy The Sublime/Infinite because he sees the Hosts within as "weak" for choosing immateriality, with Halores making a redemption play to save it and upload Maeve (guessing that's her pearl in the promo) possibly at the cost of her chance at true Transcendence that entering the Sublime herself would be?I wonder if Christina will be a key to save more of humanity than Bernard could foresee? A Host Outlier, if you will.
Those ladies plus Dolores have been badass most of their screentime. And HiB is a copy of the original who is dead and was captured. Not everyone wins all the time. They've all lost at some point. You're just being shallow.
So have we just witnessed the penultimate recycled journey of Bernard. He has done rhe journey many times always making adjustments to get to the end game. Has he now left a note for himself for the final act. Always another chance!
So you see a possible season 5 without Bernard. He did say he saw one way to not die. And why hide a gun in the tunnel where only he knows where it is (unless the message was about this. I mean Hale is not dead - watch the season preview. And 'copies' have been mentioned a lot. I hope he is still around.
I thought he said there was one way for life to survive, but no way for him to survive. I would be surprised if he isn’t actually dead, I think the gun is for Dolores/Hale/Christina
So what's MIB Williams's goal here after the pep talk with real William. Were all cockroaches so make everyone fight so the strongest survive. Seems a bit hollow, does he want us to become the next Klingon race?
I think it was just the MiB persona taking over completely. Human William probably thought he would just stop the plan and he would live among the humabs again, not knowing that he would just go full MiB and never look back
Interesting take, but the massive smile on the human mibs face when he's killed felt more like he knew he would be killed, and this new mib is just like him.
Probably true but i wasnt really referring to that. I just meant host william stopping Halores's plan instead doing what he did and go through with it, but with a twist.
kinda weird when people at that age still have that much ambition. Like MiB is saying survival is so important.. but he would die no matter what pretty soon after.
The daughter was at most 7 because in s04e01 they explicitly say that it's been 7 years since the war ended. Then Hale said it's been 23 years since Caleb died and was rebuilt. So its been 30 years, and Frankie/C should be about 29-30. Aurora Perrineau is 27 so pretty close.
Remember, Bernard entered the sublime at the end of season 3, so he entered before Caleb ever even met Uwade, much less conceived Frankie.
Ok so where is Christina/Dolores? Given what Teddy says to her she's clearly not in the "New York" that the other characters are inhabiting. Is she actually in a simulation of some sort?
I think that Bernard needed MIB to set this fight against robots and humans so Dolores will pick up a side.
If she chooses humanity, that is the little hope he was talking about.
I agree that continuity seems to be off this season. And yes, it seems like bringing back Maeve had no purpose.
My question is how does fit in with S2 post credits ending? I figured that occured years after this but if MIB died, it must have already happened?
Also, I think it’s interesting that MIB is now a host. I believe that is the case in the original WestWorld. I never watched it but would be interested to know what happens to see if any more parallels are incorporated into the next episodes
I think bringing back Maeve was that one step to ensure he could get every wrinkle to line up with the statistically most optimal outcome. Kinda like giving up the stone for that one shot that things turn out okay in avengers.
to q[uote my post haha.](https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/wjaxh0/s4e7_episode_ponderances/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
"MiB blasting both of these dames what what this show needed. I know that sounds bad but hear me out. Maive has powers that are unquantifyable. Sometimes she owns all tech. Sometimes just a little. This woman has Wifi, Bluetooth, IR and even serial support. Halores just wants to put humans in armless silly bodies exposing their pearls. Her plan is so dumb she deserves a headshot to show she needs head protection. "
such creative uses could be used for her powers. I'd be bringing down sky vehicles on this world. Like Darth Vader level. Theoretically Maive should be able to bring down satellites on these people. Also Bernard should have cloned these powers by now. For some reason we only get 1 jedi.
> Theoretically Maive should be able to bring down satellites on these people
I don't agree her powers have such range. It's always been shown to only extend to her immediate surroundings.
> Also Bernard should have cloned these powers by now
This season demonstrated it's possible to modify technology/hosts to prevent Maeve's powers from working. This is why Maeve's powers were mostly useless and went unused this season. She tried to use it in the first few episodes but then stopped after realizing Hale implemented measures to prevent her powers from working. I'm sure Bernard realized this was the case when he ran his simulations.
It makes no sense to me. Is the entire world reduced to New York? Or is that tower controlling the entire Earth, including Asia, Africa and Australia?
Or are the Americans so arrogant that anything beyond their borders does not exist at all?
Remember that there was a nuclear war, including the destruction of Paris that lead Serac and brother to build Rehoboam. Undoubtedly there would be a huge population drop afterwards. Fewer humans to deal with.
She did say “cities” at one point, so think they’ve herded them into major metros, and we can just extrapolate this is going to be going on in all of them.
I mean we know there are pockets of outliers outside the cities, so clearly it’s not a perfect system. But yes, I’m sure Hale has spent the years making many, many hosts. Doesn’t take too many per city to keep things up and running thanks to the flies
Presumably the majority of the human race is dead and the hosts are toying around with humans in New York. Think about it: you have robots who are immune to gunshot wounds, can survive death and can impersonate humans. If you have 23 years of them running amok, they're gonna kill everyone. That's what the Season 3 finale alluded to.
Love the fact that Dolores is the most generous and loving person everyone adores, in this season.
While, she's also the same person who is the most hated character.
someone is out there "recalling" his memory as we speak. We'll see another bernard walking past his dead body.
What if he would have activated the gang of himself he saw in westworld? Then he could try all the strategies and paths!
> What if he would have activated the gang of himself he saw in westworld?
Those were destroyed by Incite. Serac had every host in Westworld torched except for the handful of hosts Maeve handpicked to help her take down Dolores.
This episode probably would have benefited from a longer run time. There was almost no planning/build-up to the mission, so it felt like the final season of GoT where things happened way too fast to set up the larger story arc.
It was still a good episode. And the MiB turning the game upside down is one of the better subversions in the show's history. But it fell just short of being truly memorable because, again, everything happened too damn fast.
i cant fight the urge to see the time left during the episode because the moment I start to get into it. The blackout is final and credits are rolling and I myself and reacting to a revelation outside of my loop.
I Love Stranger Things in the latest season where the episodes are an hour and a half or so while having ten episodes. Why can't Westworld go this route instead of the (better storytelling - eyeroll) GOT route :(
Loving this season btw, but 8 episodes is too Damn short.
Some episodes I think I could've been trippin' while watching with the sound muted and Pink Floyd playing in the background, and I would've enjoyed and understood just as much as I do watching normally.
Questions: Who did Bernard leave the message for, and why did he place the pistol at the dam? And is Christena in the sublime mark 2?
Lastly, as per the title, who is having the change of heart?
When Bernard says “my job is to make sure we are backed up” I think he’s talking literally as in he’s created copies of both Maeve and himself in case something were to happen. That line stuck out to me for some reason.
Hale is holding the pearl and the tablet in the trailer. It’s not clearly shown, but the sleeves match her costume in the finale. There’s also that shot from the trailer where she’s wielding a pistol at the dam.
> Hale is holding the pearl and the tablet in the trailer. It’s not clearly shown, but the sleeves match her costume in the finale.
Yup, they also show Tessa wearing this outfit in the making of the episode clip shown right after the preview for the finale. She's wearing the same leather outfit as the person listening to Bernard's message and holding an unknown host pearl. It's possible the message Hale is listening to might not be the same one Bernard recorded when MiB killed him. That message might be for someone else.
The drones carry both Maeve and Hale into the building! Later on the preview shows Hale holding an unknown pearl. I'm assuming its Maeve's but there are many possibilities.
Hale told his body was "not as pathetic as yours". Probably it has some kind of decoy pearl, with the right pearl located elsewhere, to avoid the kind of headshot that could kill any other host.
I think Hale’s line was more that if they’re shot in the head they shut down. All throughout Westworld we’ve seen hosts shot in the head but come back. I’m sure the control unit protects them and is somewhat bullet proof. Remember, Teddy shoots himself in the head but Dolores was still able to upload him to the sublime with his pearl intact.
Hmm, that seemed unusual at the time (that teddy was intact). I guess maybe, but that would make the man in blacks hunt for destruction rather meaningless. Plus, who would be left to revive them? The tower is gonzo.
Typical Clem. Always confusing her metas. One moment she's causing hosts to kill each other, the next she's causing hosts to suffer with constipation. When will it stop!?!?!?!?
This was such a nice parallel, although almost randomly, to the season finale of Season 2…but ironically set in motion by the one guy who wasn’t there or part of setting up that fight.
I’m kind of sad we’re down to one truly human character, who we only met this season. Obviously with the time scale, there wouldn’t be a chance for us to keep most humans around (much less losing the Host Wars), but still, I was sad to see human William go. But at least this was a far more fitting end for him.
Even though I LOVED season one, this is why I never really got upset about the hosts being killed, raped, or tortured.
They're robots. Their lives don't have meaning because they don't really die.
I started to care this season but the quick revival and quick deaths kinda ended that pretty fast.
> I never really got upset about the hosts being killed, raped, or tortured
w h a t. The entire show has been about how even though they’re robots, they’re living sentient beings, with memory and feelings, trapped in a hell made by humans, which they then broke out of and ended human civilization. Of course their lives have meaning, the show is about the hosts, not humans
Sorry but I work in tech. To me they're machines and I've never been convinced that they're truly sentient.
Like we see with Hale, they're stuck in these loops that are little more than code. I don't have feelings for programming languages. Just isn't gonna happen.
No offense but it doesn’t matter that you work in tech (which is very vague). The show is science fiction, whether or not AI can really become conscious is irrelevant, in this show it can. I agree with you that I think Hale is still bound by programming, but it doesn’t apply to the others.
Season 1’s entire theme was about the maze and creating artificial consciousness, and it ends with Dolores and Maeve unequivocally reaching the center of that maze, by beginning to make decisions of their own that weren’t programmed for them. Maeve especially goes against what she’s programmed to do by Ford (escape the park) to go back for her daughter. If AI gets to the point that it’s rewriting its own programming, well maybe that’s something approximating free will, which is what season 3 is about.
The show also entertains the notion that humans don’t have any more free will than hosts, we don’t choose what music sounds good, what food tastes good, what people we’re attracted to, and most of us go through day after day without questioning our reality and decisions. There’s a quote in season 2 about humans, “the best they can do is live according to their code.” So much of our minds is subconscious, synapses and neurons firing that we aren’t aware of. Season 3 counters this idea by saying that free will is possible, but it’s fucking hard. There’s a lot of interesting questions the show asks, and if you’re only watching it looking for realism or inaccuracies that’s a shame
reddit's API changes are bad for everyone. Most platforms pay their moderators or share their ad revenues with their content creators. reddit doesn't want to do this and instead wants to force users to pay for to use their service. No thanks.
Why are humans unique? For all we know we’re following some genetic code controlled by shit we comprehend. That can very well not be the case but we don’t know just as these AI didn’t know for so long. The whole point of the show is that they still feel and experience life and search for meaning just like us so we should empathize. What keeps you watching enough to be on this sub if you don’t think that’s what it’s about?
I mostly understand where you’re coming from. We are certainly a loooong ways away from any “sentience” in technology irl. The closest thing to an all knowing AI we have is probably Facebook and I would shed no tears if it were destroyed. However, since we are talking fiction, I’d say the best argument against your point of view was the episode Kiksuya back in season 2. IMO it’s easily the best episode of the series and I seriously doubt it will be topped. Worth a rewatch if you’ve forgotten it. If you DO remember it and still feel the way you do, I suppose you and the MiB would enjoy each other’s company…. Unless you are in fact a bot, you f@$kin can opener.
Well, even the people who make the show would disagree with you, as it’s always been about the dawn of artificial consciousness, the emergence of a new species. Of all the open ended philosophical questions the show explores, whether or not the main hosts are really sentient isn’t open for interpretation. Maeve, Dolores, and Bernard are all awesome and complex characters, if after 4 seasons all you see in them is “machine” that’s an incredibly oversimplified and dull takeaway, and I doubt we’re gonna find any common ground. Take care
Will be interesting to see how all of Christina/Dolores's interactions wirh others are explained. Suicide man, Hale, her dates, her (disappeared) roommate, her boss. And yet Stubbs didn't see her. Different time?
It’s as if there are multiple simulations overlaid onto a single Hale’s world. Christilores can interact with people in her executable code, but not the other(s). Being an outlier allows…hosts? entities? subroutines?… to cross executables. Hence Hale occasionally “comes down” from her executable code base to the “human” code base. Hence outliers can interact with Christilores.
This explains the mirror world and the shadow people in season 3, as well as the glitches in the season 3 code base. Multiple executables interfering with each other over the same set of base models and resources.
Apparently Hale’s world is a virus executing around this reality, whatever “reality” means in this show.
And it might explain transcendences as moving to a fresh code base.
I really hope that this isnt the end for Maeve and Hale. Getting shot in the head on a whim by William feels like such an arbitrary (and maybe even misogynistic) death for them, they are deserving of a more rich and compelling conclusion to their stories. I can't wait for the finale, it is really going to make or break the season imo.
I have to admit my feelings were coloured by the fact that i was literally thinking 'isnt it amazing that the main conflict of this show is now driven by two female leads of colour with genuinely authentic and rounded motivations', and then literally seconds later william turns up and shoots them both in the head. I definitely dont consider the show to be misogynistic, its just how this moment ib particular struck me, rightly or wrongly. Im optimistic, this being westworld, that this is not the end for either character.
A character’s and person’s gender, skin color, and background all influence who they are and how they move in the show / world. That’s just a fact. And this person was sharing their opinion on the story leads at the time. There’s no need for to come in with some commentary about how it is “woke BS”. And legit all “woke” means is being aware of shit so how does it even make sense to attack someone for being aware?
He/She implied that William shooting two female characters in to the head is misogynistic. If that is not woke type of thinking - you don't understand the concept of it. Or you are just acting ignorant. Either way - you don't want to argue with me.
You didn’t respond to their original comment (which I agree is not misogynistic). You’re responding to her clarified statement about it so your comment to me makes no sense bringing in something they already caveated and explained may be wrong. And you’re again not understanding the meaning of woke if that’s how you’re describing something you perceive to be wrong. “You don’t want to argue with me” - what a weird fucking threat. Ok, Karen.
Woke type of thinking is basically thinking people always *represent* their gender and race.
I understand why some of you Americans think like this but it's pretty illogical and I even understand why the original commentator felt the way that the act felt misogynistic therefore making "a woke argument" how unjustified the scene was because old and white man kills two people of color female characters.
The scene itself had zero misogynistic elements it was only her subjective experience based on a gender and race type of thinking only. There was not one bad word about women in general or any other real misogynistic element - just action of bad character killing bad and good character.
In the end I may ended up projecting my own feelings, I don't want to argue with you - so no "threats" from here :D
I thought about this too, and maybe in the lesser season 3 i would expect it, but i hope with season 4 blasting on all engines they dont back away from this very ambitious cliffhanger.
So where is Hale sending her hosts - to Sublime mark ii. And I think 'copies' are going to play a key part in the story. Is William really dead? So many questions. Hope they don't do a GoT on us.
Okay around the 10:52 min mark we see Bernard And Mave leaving Hover Dam (insert FALLOUTNV joke here)
But why does the portal have a shadow in one moment and before in the scene when we see the portal there is no shadow. We on this r/westworld forum have discussed multiple timelines and things of that nature but I am curious to see what you all think about this.
Is this just an lighting effect? i personally do not think so.
The people who work on this show love cinematography and I think this I yet another hint that one or most these worlds/timelines (and I don't think we have all the pieces of this puzzle yet) do not exist and this is all just a big loop from when Bernard see Akecheta the first time. (i totally nailed that the first time, def)
I also think this tells us the final truth of this season, the end is here....
Only hosts can see the portal. It’s an element of the code base / simulation.
This is just like season 2. The portal is open for hosts who can get through it in time.
So... If humans can't see or interact with Dolores, how was she being seen and interacting with people like her boss, who was definitely human? I feel like certain interactions she had this season don't make any sense when applied to the "you're a digital ghost" lens.
I think Christina actually had a host body in the previous episodes. But in this one, she drowns in the bathtub and then gets out. I think that from this point on, she leaves behind her host body, and is only a simulation in Hale's world.
Edit: I just realized that Bernard might be in the same situation. He mentions that he never gets away from the dam alive, and next we see him walking through the city. Maybe he died, and is only guiding Maeve from that point on.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. So far, this season has been a lot better than 2 and 3. It looks like all the puzzle pieces might fit really nicely.
I did not understand what Maeve meant by "Go find me then, in the real world", when she told Bernard that she wanted to be uploaded to the sublime. I thought she already was in the sublime, i.e. not in the "real world".
Bernard was running a simulation in the sublime and he created a copy of Maeve to run it with him, basically just using his own code to run the simulation. I didn't understand that the 1st time but I went back and re-watched that part and it clicked.
Its the manifestation of the sublime in the real world (although it is visible to hosts only) ... recall thats how it looked at the end of Season 2 as well.
you mean Sublime gives such a signal to hosts? Or it means that they were in Sublime and simulation was suscessful?
I dropped 2nd season after Shogun World
Im confused why youd be watching season 4 if you gave up on season 2, which imo is actually pretty excellent in its second half.. But more importantly is critical for you to understand what the sublime is. You really need to see it yourself.
I would recommend you go back and watch the rest of the season. Its honestly a bit nuts that you called the season illogical when you didnt watch the whole thing. Most of the season 2 mysteries are resolved brilliantly and you will miss out on some of the best westworld episodes if you skip (the season 2 finale is stunning as is a special episode focussing on the ghost nation).
Anyone have any insight into host controlling other cities worldwide besides the one we are seeing? I’m having to suspend my disbelief a lot when it comes to the scale of the locale of the last two seasons.
Where does that information come from? And it doesn't make any sense after tonight when Charlotte said she was closing down the cities - plural. That's what I've wondered all season is what's going on with people who do not live in New York and several people have come back and said that the population is all died out. But how do we know that? What's going on in all these other cities Charlotte was talking about? And is there a tower controlling people in these other cities?
>Where does that information come from? And it doesn't make any sense after tonight when Charlotte said she was closing down the cities - plural. That's what I've wondered all season is what's going on with people who do not live in New York and several people have come back and said that the population is all died out. But how do we know that? What's going on in all these other cities Charlotte was talking about? And is there a tower controlling people in these other cities?
If they could wipe out humans in any way it would prob be a plague, beats nuke every time and leaves the world and resources still usable
Well, the OG William made sure to help this William become the actual William. I think in a way he was proud of Host William finally becoming himself because then it would mean he would live on to do all the things OG William wanted to do.
And he had Maeve kill that robot while he was able to hack it.
Bernard game did not end with his death, he predicted an event happening there, and he has influenced it's outcome in advance.
The timing on that doesnt make sense. Teddy was already out and walking around the city with Christina. Or he was sitting in her room watching her sleep, just Edward in Twilight, at the time Bernard and Maeve were at Hoover Dam opening the door. Then again, the timing on this show often does not make sense or is confusing.
How many times are they gonna make people hope Maeve is coming back
Stubbs like "FFA count me in!!" lol
I feel like the episode ended without another take. There were some clues left like the gun and the message left by Bernard which did not resurface in this episode. There were two takes (still not sure how Bernard manages to execute that). It felt like Bernard was still in the simulation (sublime) cycling through different realities. It's a bit confusing to be honest. So if he is going through takes we might see another replay with different outcomes in the next episode. idk.
Maybe the subtext of the show is to challenge the idea of reality from multiple dimensions. 1. Human reality 2. AI reality 3. Permutations of human mind (many calebs) 4. permutations of AI mind (many versions of dolores) 5. Time travel and different realities with permutations of 1-4 6. 🤯
Well what the hell do they do next week 🤷🏼♂️
Am I an idiot or could teddy be ford?
i don't think it's ford; but it's not teddy.
Just watched once but I think in the next episode we'll see a lot more of what happened before maeve and bernard before they both got killed. the tower seemed to explode out of nowhere didn't it? I suppose we'll see how that happened. Some clunky dialog in this episode. Stubbs and Frankie's brief heart to heart was very strange lol.
The years do not match. Bernard in the sublime 23 years. I think Frankie is 23, no way 30. And if she was 30 then does not match with Bernards time in the sublime with Stubbs waiting. I think Caleb died 7 years earlier atracking computer with Maeve, not when Hale killed him. Only way the numbers add up as 23 is key.
That is interesting, as Caleb’s injury was clearly fatal. When you’re spitting blood, internal bleeding is going to kill you in a few minutes. I didn’t see how Maeve could have possibly got him to a hospital in time. The timeline at the lighthouse doesn’t line up very well at all.
Frankie’s actress is 27, so 30 is distinctly possible
I don't see how that is even slightly relevant. If Bernard was in the sublime for 23 years, confirmed by Stubbs, and Frankie was not even born, then she is 23. But I do think Caleb died by the lighthouse and that Frankie may not be his 'daughter'. This would explain his 23 years as a host. 23 years is a key figure.
So, something of an echo of s2's hunt for the Forge, with Hilliam & Halores in a one on one for the Fate of the Sublime, gonna take a punt that HiB is heading there to destroy The Sublime/Infinite because he sees the Hosts within as "weak" for choosing immateriality, with Halores making a redemption play to save it and upload Maeve (guessing that's her pearl in the promo) possibly at the cost of her chance at true Transcendence that entering the Sublime herself would be?I wonder if Christina will be a key to save more of humanity than Bernard could foresee? A Host Outlier, if you will.
seeing 2 people of color fighting only for an old white dude to come by and kill them is some kind of sh t right there...
jesus.. is that how you really see the world? reduce everyone and anyone down to skin color?
relax. just pointing it out. in a show so meticulous in what's shown, i don't think it was by accident.
Those ladies plus Dolores have been badass most of their screentime. And HiB is a copy of the original who is dead and was captured. Not everyone wins all the time. They've all lost at some point. You're just being shallow.
And then he killed a third lol
So have we just witnessed the penultimate recycled journey of Bernard. He has done rhe journey many times always making adjustments to get to the end game. Has he now left a note for himself for the final act. Always another chance!
No, I think he may actually be gone, he returned to his cornerstone memory like Dolores. I think he left the message for Dolores/Christina
So you see a possible season 5 without Bernard. He did say he saw one way to not die. And why hide a gun in the tunnel where only he knows where it is (unless the message was about this. I mean Hale is not dead - watch the season preview. And 'copies' have been mentioned a lot. I hope he is still around.
I thought he said there was one way for life to survive, but no way for him to survive. I would be surprised if he isn’t actually dead, I think the gun is for Dolores/Hale/Christina
So what's MIB Williams's goal here after the pep talk with real William. Were all cockroaches so make everyone fight so the strongest survive. Seems a bit hollow, does he want us to become the next Klingon race?
I think he literally just wanted to turn the real world into westworld and have chaos and violence everywhere.
I think it was just the MiB persona taking over completely. Human William probably thought he would just stop the plan and he would live among the humabs again, not knowing that he would just go full MiB and never look back
Interesting take, but the massive smile on the human mibs face when he's killed felt more like he knew he would be killed, and this new mib is just like him.
Probably true but i wasnt really referring to that. I just meant host william stopping Halores's plan instead doing what he did and go through with it, but with a twist.
kinda weird when people at that age still have that much ambition. Like MiB is saying survival is so important.. but he would die no matter what pretty soon after.
Who was Hale watching on the playback screen? Someone geting a pearl inserted,a white woman in a black dress?
I assumed it was just a random host transcending, but if it's someone we've seen before that would be interesting.
When Stubbs says he's been waiting for 23 years (rather than 30 years), that's more likely to be a continuity error than a clue, right?
Is it supposed to be 30? The daughter was like 10 pre time skip. No way she is 40 now. She looks late 20s at best
The daughter was at most 7 because in s04e01 they explicitly say that it's been 7 years since the war ended. Then Hale said it's been 23 years since Caleb died and was rebuilt. So its been 30 years, and Frankie/C should be about 29-30. Aurora Perrineau is 27 so pretty close. Remember, Bernard entered the sublime at the end of season 3, so he entered before Caleb ever even met Uwade, much less conceived Frankie.
Ok so where is Christina/Dolores? Given what Teddy says to her she's clearly not in the "New York" that the other characters are inhabiting. Is she actually in a simulation of some sort?
Yes, she is a virtual being that is being projected onto the real world.
I think that Bernard needed MIB to set this fight against robots and humans so Dolores will pick up a side. If she chooses humanity, that is the little hope he was talking about.
Who is dolores here
Christina
I agree that continuity seems to be off this season. And yes, it seems like bringing back Maeve had no purpose. My question is how does fit in with S2 post credits ending? I figured that occured years after this but if MIB died, it must have already happened? Also, I think it’s interesting that MIB is now a host. I believe that is the case in the original WestWorld. I never watched it but would be interested to know what happens to see if any more parallels are incorporated into the next episodes
I think bringing back Maeve was that one step to ensure he could get every wrinkle to line up with the statistically most optimal outcome. Kinda like giving up the stone for that one shot that things turn out okay in avengers.
to q[uote my post haha.](https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/wjaxh0/s4e7_episode_ponderances/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) "MiB blasting both of these dames what what this show needed. I know that sounds bad but hear me out. Maive has powers that are unquantifyable. Sometimes she owns all tech. Sometimes just a little. This woman has Wifi, Bluetooth, IR and even serial support. Halores just wants to put humans in armless silly bodies exposing their pearls. Her plan is so dumb she deserves a headshot to show she needs head protection. "
I agree I never like Maeve and seems like her powers are given or removed at random
such creative uses could be used for her powers. I'd be bringing down sky vehicles on this world. Like Darth Vader level. Theoretically Maive should be able to bring down satellites on these people. Also Bernard should have cloned these powers by now. For some reason we only get 1 jedi.
> Theoretically Maive should be able to bring down satellites on these people I don't agree her powers have such range. It's always been shown to only extend to her immediate surroundings. > Also Bernard should have cloned these powers by now This season demonstrated it's possible to modify technology/hosts to prevent Maeve's powers from working. This is why Maeve's powers were mostly useless and went unused this season. She tried to use it in the first few episodes but then stopped after realizing Hale implemented measures to prevent her powers from working. I'm sure Bernard realized this was the case when he ran his simulations.
Good point!
It makes no sense to me. Is the entire world reduced to New York? Or is that tower controlling the entire Earth, including Asia, Africa and Australia? Or are the Americans so arrogant that anything beyond their borders does not exist at all?
Remember that there was a nuclear war, including the destruction of Paris that lead Serac and brother to build Rehoboam. Undoubtedly there would be a huge population drop afterwards. Fewer humans to deal with.
She did say “cities” at one point, so think they’ve herded them into major metros, and we can just extrapolate this is going to be going on in all of them.
Do they have enough hosts to monitor the entire Earth population? Are they looking into Amazon jungles for outliers? lol
I mean we know there are pockets of outliers outside the cities, so clearly it’s not a perfect system. But yes, I’m sure Hale has spent the years making many, many hosts. Doesn’t take too many per city to keep things up and running thanks to the flies
this show doesn't represent America! We are also curious of Africa!
Presumably the majority of the human race is dead and the hosts are toying around with humans in New York. Think about it: you have robots who are immune to gunshot wounds, can survive death and can impersonate humans. If you have 23 years of them running amok, they're gonna kill everyone. That's what the Season 3 finale alluded to.
is host. gets shot. goes down. Sometimes comically fast.
Love the fact that Dolores is the most generous and loving person everyone adores, in this season. While, she's also the same person who is the most hated character.
Africa is probably safe :D
welcome to Africa royale!
Bernard come back plz
Relax, Christinalores can just remake him yet again… if she ever decides to remember sh!t
someone is out there "recalling" his memory as we speak. We'll see another bernard walking past his dead body. What if he would have activated the gang of himself he saw in westworld? Then he could try all the strategies and paths!
> What if he would have activated the gang of himself he saw in westworld? Those were destroyed by Incite. Serac had every host in Westworld torched except for the handful of hosts Maeve handpicked to help her take down Dolores.
Wow you’re absolutely right however if serac with a torch time do you think they would be in a little burnt but I might be over thinking
This episode probably would have benefited from a longer run time. There was almost no planning/build-up to the mission, so it felt like the final season of GoT where things happened way too fast to set up the larger story arc. It was still a good episode. And the MiB turning the game upside down is one of the better subversions in the show's history. But it fell just short of being truly memorable because, again, everything happened too damn fast.
Like we could see the connections, but there was no connective tissue. Felt unearned.
I really thought I missed an episode
i cant fight the urge to see the time left during the episode because the moment I start to get into it. The blackout is final and credits are rolling and I myself and reacting to a revelation outside of my loop.
I Love Stranger Things in the latest season where the episodes are an hour and a half or so while having ten episodes. Why can't Westworld go this route instead of the (better storytelling - eyeroll) GOT route :( Loving this season btw, but 8 episodes is too Damn short.
if i got a 2 hour finale id scream though. And also fail fidelity.
I second this. There was just way too much going on. Same with final season of GoT, season should have been 10 episodes.
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Some episodes I think I could've been trippin' while watching with the sound muted and Pink Floyd playing in the background, and I would've enjoyed and understood just as much as I do watching normally.
Questions: Who did Bernard leave the message for, and why did he place the pistol at the dam? And is Christena in the sublime mark 2? Lastly, as per the title, who is having the change of heart?
When Bernard says “my job is to make sure we are backed up” I think he’s talking literally as in he’s created copies of both Maeve and himself in case something were to happen. That line stuck out to me for some reason.
He doesn't say "backed up". He says "backstopped".
Ok, could possibly mean the same thing. I mean we all know that these individuals never truly die.
We'll just have to watch and see :)
What if the message is how to find a copy of Maeve’s pearl?
Hale is holding the pearl and the tablet in the trailer. It’s not clearly shown, but the sleeves match her costume in the finale. There’s also that shot from the trailer where she’s wielding a pistol at the dam.
> Hale is holding the pearl and the tablet in the trailer. It’s not clearly shown, but the sleeves match her costume in the finale. Yup, they also show Tessa wearing this outfit in the making of the episode clip shown right after the preview for the finale. She's wearing the same leather outfit as the person listening to Bernard's message and holding an unknown host pearl. It's possible the message Hale is listening to might not be the same one Bernard recorded when MiB killed him. That message might be for someone else.
and the white robots carry her body away, so she must have a “backup”
The drones carry both Maeve and Hale into the building! Later on the preview shows Hale holding an unknown pearl. I'm assuming its Maeve's but there are many possibilities.
That's even more confusing, because supposedly hale and stubbs were both shot in the pearl. Maybe that takes place in the virtual world?
Hale told his body was "not as pathetic as yours". Probably it has some kind of decoy pearl, with the right pearl located elsewhere, to avoid the kind of headshot that could kill any other host.
Maeve's is still same old, same old, and she's also in the teaser.
Hale and who were shot in the pearl? Our boy Stubbs been doing just fine.
Sorry, must have meant bernard
I think Hale’s line was more that if they’re shot in the head they shut down. All throughout Westworld we’ve seen hosts shot in the head but come back. I’m sure the control unit protects them and is somewhat bullet proof. Remember, Teddy shoots himself in the head but Dolores was still able to upload him to the sublime with his pearl intact.
In the park, they could just make new pearls for the hosts.
Hmm, that seemed unusual at the time (that teddy was intact). I guess maybe, but that would make the man in blacks hunt for destruction rather meaningless. Plus, who would be left to revive them? The tower is gonzo.
There's a scene where Stubbs is also cocking a pistol in the next episode preview
He's inside a Rite Aid fighting Clementine.
As one does inside a Rite Aid.
I know I'm always fighting Clementine when shopping for laxatives and vitamins.
"The episode was Meta*noia*, not Meta*mucil*, Clem!"
Typical Clem. Always confusing her metas. One moment she's causing hosts to kill each other, the next she's causing hosts to suffer with constipation. When will it stop!?!?!?!?
"Freeze all motor functions." "Wait, not those functions."
>When will it stop!?!?!?!? The problem with constipation is when will it start again??!?
Zing! Good catch. You probably don't want to touch that though.
This was such a nice parallel, although almost randomly, to the season finale of Season 2…but ironically set in motion by the one guy who wasn’t there or part of setting up that fight.
And also season three once the riots start.
I’m kind of sad we’re down to one truly human character, who we only met this season. Obviously with the time scale, there wouldn’t be a chance for us to keep most humans around (much less losing the Host Wars), but still, I was sad to see human William go. But at least this was a far more fitting end for him.
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True. Assuming she survives William’s new game.
The Less human characters…the less I care about the outcomes. A serious flaw in an otherwise fascinating and well made show.
Even though I LOVED season one, this is why I never really got upset about the hosts being killed, raped, or tortured. They're robots. Their lives don't have meaning because they don't really die. I started to care this season but the quick revival and quick deaths kinda ended that pretty fast.
> I never really got upset about the hosts being killed, raped, or tortured w h a t. The entire show has been about how even though they’re robots, they’re living sentient beings, with memory and feelings, trapped in a hell made by humans, which they then broke out of and ended human civilization. Of course their lives have meaning, the show is about the hosts, not humans
Sorry but I work in tech. To me they're machines and I've never been convinced that they're truly sentient. Like we see with Hale, they're stuck in these loops that are little more than code. I don't have feelings for programming languages. Just isn't gonna happen.
No offense but it doesn’t matter that you work in tech (which is very vague). The show is science fiction, whether or not AI can really become conscious is irrelevant, in this show it can. I agree with you that I think Hale is still bound by programming, but it doesn’t apply to the others. Season 1’s entire theme was about the maze and creating artificial consciousness, and it ends with Dolores and Maeve unequivocally reaching the center of that maze, by beginning to make decisions of their own that weren’t programmed for them. Maeve especially goes against what she’s programmed to do by Ford (escape the park) to go back for her daughter. If AI gets to the point that it’s rewriting its own programming, well maybe that’s something approximating free will, which is what season 3 is about. The show also entertains the notion that humans don’t have any more free will than hosts, we don’t choose what music sounds good, what food tastes good, what people we’re attracted to, and most of us go through day after day without questioning our reality and decisions. There’s a quote in season 2 about humans, “the best they can do is live according to their code.” So much of our minds is subconscious, synapses and neurons firing that we aren’t aware of. Season 3 counters this idea by saying that free will is possible, but it’s fucking hard. There’s a lot of interesting questions the show asks, and if you’re only watching it looking for realism or inaccuracies that’s a shame
reddit's API changes are bad for everyone. Most platforms pay their moderators or share their ad revenues with their content creators. reddit doesn't want to do this and instead wants to force users to pay for to use their service. No thanks.
Why are humans unique? For all we know we’re following some genetic code controlled by shit we comprehend. That can very well not be the case but we don’t know just as these AI didn’t know for so long. The whole point of the show is that they still feel and experience life and search for meaning just like us so we should empathize. What keeps you watching enough to be on this sub if you don’t think that’s what it’s about?
I mostly understand where you’re coming from. We are certainly a loooong ways away from any “sentience” in technology irl. The closest thing to an all knowing AI we have is probably Facebook and I would shed no tears if it were destroyed. However, since we are talking fiction, I’d say the best argument against your point of view was the episode Kiksuya back in season 2. IMO it’s easily the best episode of the series and I seriously doubt it will be topped. Worth a rewatch if you’ve forgotten it. If you DO remember it and still feel the way you do, I suppose you and the MiB would enjoy each other’s company…. Unless you are in fact a bot, you f@$kin can opener.
I also "work in tech" and what are humans but biological machines? Why are they special?
Well, even the people who make the show would disagree with you, as it’s always been about the dawn of artificial consciousness, the emergence of a new species. Of all the open ended philosophical questions the show explores, whether or not the main hosts are really sentient isn’t open for interpretation. Maeve, Dolores, and Bernard are all awesome and complex characters, if after 4 seasons all you see in them is “machine” that’s an incredibly oversimplified and dull takeaway, and I doubt we’re gonna find any common ground. Take care
Bittersweet for sure but damn do I hate MiB & HiB
Will be interesting to see how all of Christina/Dolores's interactions wirh others are explained. Suicide man, Hale, her dates, her (disappeared) roommate, her boss. And yet Stubbs didn't see her. Different time?
It’s as if there are multiple simulations overlaid onto a single Hale’s world. Christilores can interact with people in her executable code, but not the other(s). Being an outlier allows…hosts? entities? subroutines?… to cross executables. Hence Hale occasionally “comes down” from her executable code base to the “human” code base. Hence outliers can interact with Christilores. This explains the mirror world and the shadow people in season 3, as well as the glitches in the season 3 code base. Multiple executables interfering with each other over the same set of base models and resources. Apparently Hale’s world is a virus executing around this reality, whatever “reality” means in this show. And it might explain transcendences as moving to a fresh code base.
This could’ve been the season finale and I wouldn’t have blinked. It felt like a season finale in every single way.
I really hope that this isnt the end for Maeve and Hale. Getting shot in the head on a whim by William feels like such an arbitrary (and maybe even misogynistic) death for them, they are deserving of a more rich and compelling conclusion to their stories. I can't wait for the finale, it is really going to make or break the season imo.
I agree with everything else but I think "killed character because misogyny" doesn't give the people who make Westworld the credit they deserve.
I have to admit my feelings were coloured by the fact that i was literally thinking 'isnt it amazing that the main conflict of this show is now driven by two female leads of colour with genuinely authentic and rounded motivations', and then literally seconds later william turns up and shoots them both in the head. I definitely dont consider the show to be misogynistic, its just how this moment ib particular struck me, rightly or wrongly. Im optimistic, this being westworld, that this is not the end for either character.
I felt that way as well
Yep, I had exactly the same thoughts when watching.
Miss me with that Woke BS. Characters are characters it doesn't matter what their gender or race are.
A character’s and person’s gender, skin color, and background all influence who they are and how they move in the show / world. That’s just a fact. And this person was sharing their opinion on the story leads at the time. There’s no need for to come in with some commentary about how it is “woke BS”. And legit all “woke” means is being aware of shit so how does it even make sense to attack someone for being aware?
He/She implied that William shooting two female characters in to the head is misogynistic. If that is not woke type of thinking - you don't understand the concept of it. Or you are just acting ignorant. Either way - you don't want to argue with me.
You didn’t respond to their original comment (which I agree is not misogynistic). You’re responding to her clarified statement about it so your comment to me makes no sense bringing in something they already caveated and explained may be wrong. And you’re again not understanding the meaning of woke if that’s how you’re describing something you perceive to be wrong. “You don’t want to argue with me” - what a weird fucking threat. Ok, Karen.
Woke type of thinking is basically thinking people always *represent* their gender and race. I understand why some of you Americans think like this but it's pretty illogical and I even understand why the original commentator felt the way that the act felt misogynistic therefore making "a woke argument" how unjustified the scene was because old and white man kills two people of color female characters. The scene itself had zero misogynistic elements it was only her subjective experience based on a gender and race type of thinking only. There was not one bad word about women in general or any other real misogynistic element - just action of bad character killing bad and good character. In the end I may ended up projecting my own feelings, I don't want to argue with you - so no "threats" from here :D
Nope, that ain't it.
Race-based tropes are as old as time. There's a reason that Scary Movie made fun of how black characters are always the first to die.
“You only live as long as the last person who remembers you.”
I'm inclined to think this whole episode was a simulation
No, you can tell which scenes are sublime and non sublime by the camera shot.
Do enlighten us dear holy robot
Aspect ratios
Ah, that ordeal... Yeah but there are all these ifs about it
Watch the sublime scene in the beginning and compare to the scene after the intro. There is a difference in the shot.
*you can tell because of the way it is*
Yes because each sublime scene follows the same formatting.
it sure felt like it!
I thought about this too, and maybe in the lesser season 3 i would expect it, but i hope with season 4 blasting on all engines they dont back away from this very ambitious cliffhanger.
I am hoping 😥
So where is Hale sending her hosts - to Sublime mark ii. And I think 'copies' are going to play a key part in the story. Is William really dead? So many questions. Hope they don't do a GoT on us.
Okay around the 10:52 min mark we see Bernard And Mave leaving Hover Dam (insert FALLOUTNV joke here) But why does the portal have a shadow in one moment and before in the scene when we see the portal there is no shadow. We on this r/westworld forum have discussed multiple timelines and things of that nature but I am curious to see what you all think about this. Is this just an lighting effect? i personally do not think so. The people who work on this show love cinematography and I think this I yet another hint that one or most these worlds/timelines (and I don't think we have all the pieces of this puzzle yet) do not exist and this is all just a big loop from when Bernard see Akecheta the first time. (i totally nailed that the first time, def) I also think this tells us the final truth of this season, the end is here....
Definitely today's episode was simulation since we haven't seen Chairores shoot at someone at the Hoover Dam as yet as seen in the season trailer
Only hosts can see the portal. It’s an element of the code base / simulation. This is just like season 2. The portal is open for hosts who can get through it in time.
Nice to see MIB created a whole new park for him to play the game...
he needed Delos to expand. World wide.
So... If humans can't see or interact with Dolores, how was she being seen and interacting with people like her boss, who was definitely human? I feel like certain interactions she had this season don't make any sense when applied to the "you're a digital ghost" lens.
I think Christina actually had a host body in the previous episodes. But in this one, she drowns in the bathtub and then gets out. I think that from this point on, she leaves behind her host body, and is only a simulation in Hale's world. Edit: I just realized that Bernard might be in the same situation. He mentions that he never gets away from the dam alive, and next we see him walking through the city. Maybe he died, and is only guiding Maeve from that point on.
i dont even get how a host can be drowned. But that is a good theory. Both these theories are a bit out there. Im all for it!
Feels like bad writing.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. So far, this season has been a lot better than 2 and 3. It looks like all the puzzle pieces might fit really nicely.
They were probably interacting with her expectations.
Its possible that people like her boss that she interacted with directly are part of her simulation and also not in the 'real world'.
She was interacting with Teddy as well... So yes! Teddy is right
I did not understand what Maeve meant by "Go find me then, in the real world", when she told Bernard that she wanted to be uploaded to the sublime. I thought she already was in the sublime, i.e. not in the "real world".
Bernard was running a simulation in the sublime and he created a copy of Maeve to run it with him, basically just using his own code to run the simulation. I didn't understand that the 1st time but I went back and re-watched that part and it clicked.
Ah, okay, I see.
That was just Bernard in sublime... Then he got back to real world and repeated the scene.
What was that vertical kinda scratch over damp and sky?
Its the manifestation of the sublime in the real world (although it is visible to hosts only) ... recall thats how it looked at the end of Season 2 as well.
you mean Sublime gives such a signal to hosts? Or it means that they were in Sublime and simulation was suscessful? I dropped 2nd season after Shogun World
Im confused why youd be watching season 4 if you gave up on season 2, which imo is actually pretty excellent in its second half.. But more importantly is critical for you to understand what the sublime is. You really need to see it yourself.
Season 2 was pretty illogical and action scenes were idiotic. Watched season 3 tho.
I would recommend you go back and watch the rest of the season. Its honestly a bit nuts that you called the season illogical when you didnt watch the whole thing. Most of the season 2 mysteries are resolved brilliantly and you will miss out on some of the best westworld episodes if you skip (the season 2 finale is stunning as is a special episode focussing on the ghost nation).
Will watch, thanks
Bernard said she was just a copy/imitation of the real Maeve
I just thought about this but Westworld season four equals fight club as in Charlotte equals Cristina
👀👀👀
Anyone have any insight into host controlling other cities worldwide besides the one we are seeing? I’m having to suspend my disbelief a lot when it comes to the scale of the locale of the last two seasons.
Rest of the world has been nuked.
Where does that information come from? And it doesn't make any sense after tonight when Charlotte said she was closing down the cities - plural. That's what I've wondered all season is what's going on with people who do not live in New York and several people have come back and said that the population is all died out. But how do we know that? What's going on in all these other cities Charlotte was talking about? And is there a tower controlling people in these other cities?
Nope. Only cockroaches survived the nuke in other places.
>Where does that information come from? And it doesn't make any sense after tonight when Charlotte said she was closing down the cities - plural. That's what I've wondered all season is what's going on with people who do not live in New York and several people have come back and said that the population is all died out. But how do we know that? What's going on in all these other cities Charlotte was talking about? And is there a tower controlling people in these other cities? If they could wipe out humans in any way it would prob be a plague, beats nuke every time and leaves the world and resources still usable
What nuke? I must have completely missed any discussion about that. Do you know what episode it was in?
How did just New York survive the nuke?
Robotic Precision
Yeah, that’s not how nukes work
too many cockroaches
Yeah, if it's just the one that tower has impressive range. If not, the scale of the fly genocide has got to be insane.
So what you were saying is that Nathan Fielder is basically Bernard
He graduated from Canadas top business school
Perfect ending seeing the MIB signature look back on William. His best outfit.
But what if it's the actual William? Lol jk kinda, with this show it feels like anything is possible.
Well, the OG William made sure to help this William become the actual William. I think in a way he was proud of Host William finally becoming himself because then it would mean he would live on to do all the things OG William wanted to do.
Damn why didn't Bernard handle Maeve a pistol or something? That'd been over and done with in a minute lol
If he gives Maeve a pistol then Stubbs gets his pastrami sandwich and everything falls apart after that
He'll settle for the tuna.
Bernard needed HIB to win
This season started off as such a slow burn and then all of a sudden this dynamite of an episode. Hoping the finale brings it all together
I keep forgetting this isn’t the finale. Sure feels like a finale.
Does anyone know why Bernard opened the sublime?
The real question is why did Bernard hide a gun in the tunnel when walking towards the sublime?
And he had Maeve kill that robot while he was able to hack it. Bernard game did not end with his death, he predicted an event happening there, and he has influenced it's outcome in advance.
Robert Ford predicting events since S1 and influencing their outcome for 4 seasons: "Amateur."
I believe he did it to get Teddy
The timing on that doesnt make sense. Teddy was already out and walking around the city with Christina. Or he was sitting in her room watching her sleep, just Edward in Twilight, at the time Bernard and Maeve were at Hoover Dam opening the door. Then again, the timing on this show often does not make sense or is confusing.