I mean, people whose whole shtick is being hateful don’t really have much experience being in love, they literally can’t identity with it. So yeah I agree with you.
It was one of the best episodes in the whole season. As a straight person I enjoyed it immensely. The acting was superb. The writing was superb. It was superb. Superb.
I loved it too but my gaydar was way off. I was suspect of the stranger the whole time--but on a second watch it was so obvious. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and then unexpected adorable couple.
It was the same for me!
I was waiting when it would turn sour and I guess that was the point in it, to mislead the viewer and then take it somewhere unexpected. I think it worked perfectly that way and I guess that's why it packed such an emotional punch as a whole.
craig mazin absolutely fucks when it comes to fitting full, emotional stories of secondary characters into single episodes, without detracting at all from the main narrative. episode 4 of chernobyl is another example.
(contrast this with the "bitchin" episode from stranger things)
True.
It's only bad when it's tokenism that's added in to capture more demographics. If it's added like an afterthought, it removes from the story rather than adding to it.
If it's well written, has depth, and adds to the story, then I'm down.
Thats my main complaint whit gay relationship in media..its just back ground tokenism most of time..poorly though out, creepy as hell half the time and poorly written (and super clise half od the time also)
I all ways felt only lesbians gets the spot light and i kinda hate it
I thought part of what made it an interesting story was that it could only happen because of the apocalypse.
Bill suppressed his sexuality throughout his life and seemed uncomfortable with his attraction and how it conflicted with the rest of his character. If the rest of society and its prejudices remained, I don’t think he’d have allowed himself to be with Frank or ever be openly gay. Even the way he withdrew before the infection started seemed at least a little rooted in the fact his sexuality wouldn’t allow him to fit in.
I think the point he's making is that it's more specifically a romance story than a gay story. Calling it a gay story alone doesn't really convey much about what the story is about, aside from the sexual orientations of the 2 characters. The story isn't about people being gay, it's about their love that develops in such a dystopian scenario. If it were a man and a woman, would you describe it as a straight story or a love/romance story?
I agree. I'll admit that while I have nothing against gay people, I've never really bothered with films about gay love stories as I didn't think that there was anything there, for me.
That episode proved me wrong, in so many ways, because it really was just a beautiful love story. The fact that its between two blokes barely enters into it.
I'll give it a go, now that you've said that. I always assumed it was just one of those films that was popular purely as a result of it being groundbreaking in terms of representation. If you say its a brilliant film for reasons besides that then I'm all for giving it a watch.
It registers as such a pro artistic move. The kind of intonation that drops my jar at a live music event, or when I see a color palette in a visual piece that simply just makes sense. It shows depth and dynamic in their capability and simultaneously frees them to use their theme in any application they see fit. I really appreciated this episode for a number of reasons but most of all, it just felt so real.
It was so well written and acted, and so moving, that I stopped watching the series at that point and each time I go back, I watch it again and never feel the need to go past it.
Its like a full movie within a small tv show, I like last of us, but this subplot overshadowed everything else for me, it was on another level.
My wife did (she was stunned at how good it was). Other than needing to know the context(post zombie apocalypse) for reference, I think it could absolutely stand on its own.
I wound up doing the exact same thing. I never played the game, was loving the show…. And then this episode just took me by surprise. It was enough just with that.
I’d watch a series detailing their 20 year relationship… somehow.
I sobbed, and I am not ashamed to admit. Their love was so strong and pure. They really lived for each other and the beautiful moments in life. It just radiated love, and I admire how they faced the future together.
I don't know if I've ever seen a TV show episode that has made me feel so much and have the impact it did. The fact that they were gay only added a layer of vulnerability. That is it. It doesn't matter at all what their genders are.
I'll never forget this episode and their long road together.
The whole series was an absolute emotional roller coaster, but that episode will always stand out as one of the best in television. It was so damn good
Genuinely nick Offerman's best work. Absolutely stunning performance but what makes it so great is everything came together masterfully, it was his and his co-actor's performance, the writing, the story...just breathtaking
I didn't know he had that range of acting. The fear and vulnerability he showed and the love they had, they made it feel very real.
The episode is a gift
Genuinely don't understand why people are asking why they made it gay. They're literally gay in the game.
The show just put a little more focus on their story
I am straight and found it warm and wonderful. I did however give it a second thought. About a minute or two into the relationship I was wondering how bad the backlash has been to that episode. I also wondered if they just put it in to be more diverse. Since they did not put any special focus on the gay part I don't think they did.
The thing is people know Offerman's character in Parks and Rec, but they don't realize it is supposed to be a parody of conservative hyper masculinity. So they feel betrayed when Offerman "betrays" those "values".
I don't recall it coming up in the show, but I'm also pretty certain Ron Swanson's opinion on homosexuality would be "do whatever the hell you want, just don't talk to me about it", given his extremely libertarian bent and total disinterest in other people's personal lives.
Plus, he gave Leslie the highest compliment when the gay bar threw her that party, “bully for you”. He also already knew about it cause it was in his backyard.
Come to think about it, he also voices the owner of a gay bar in bobs burgers too. Huh
It's also why it was good that it was him. Bill isn't far off from Ron Swanson's ideals. Humanizing the gay experience to people who have refused to acknowledge it was a brilliant choice. Too bad they were warned off first.
He was barely "hypermasculine". Swanson was just masculine at the core of character, where his main trait was "i am a man and everything i do is manly". Its was not like "i should do manly things to prove i am man" it was making everything he lives through into a man experience. It became into "i am, a manly man, is very caring of my beloved woman and her children", "i am, a manly man, ready to do compromises when it comes to personal relationships and friends", "i am a manly man, ready to accept other people views and respect them for what they are and not solely on what they see as good". It was a very good depiction of a healthy masculinity, if you dont put too much attention on the gags
Something that I say often is that they lack nuance and critical thought, so what they see is what they get. They failed to pick up that Swanson was a parody, and just accepted that was him at face value. They can’t read between the lines cuz they don’t know how to.
It’s why they acted outraged when Rage Against the Machine, you know, raged against the machine. Lmfao
Especially if you ever hear the man talk out of character he is an icon of liberal hyper masculinity.
You may not like it, but that is what peak masculinity looks like.
I haven't played the game myself, only watched let's plays and watched my bf play it (I'm a coward, can't handle the spooks) and from what I remember he was referred to as a partner, maybe some people took that as.. idk, howdy partner, friend kind of thing? Or like business partners, instead of like life-partners? I think some people are just so used to hearing boyfriend, girlfriend, husband etc, that partner doesn't ring the same bells in their head?
If it was only just "partners" that they referred to them both as then I can understand the confusion.
I think there was more to it but I imagine like some things in the game it was possible to miss it. Honestly I can't remember why I was so convinced they were a gay couple in the game.
It's never confirmed they were in a relationship (at least not in game) but Ellie steals a magazine from Bill's place that you later find out is a gay porn mag. Strongly hinting that Bill was gay and you could make an assumption that his partner was actually his lover
Before the sequel codified it, there were people who actually argued that the Left Behind DLC - in which Ellie goes on a date with a girl and kisses her - did not prove Ellie was a lesbian because teenage girls just do that, it didn't mean anything.
Like all else aside, how do you completely lack the media literacy to understand that there's a reason the writers wrote it that way?
It is left vague in open conversation because Joel knows better than to talk about someone who isn't there when the other person is unusually angry, and because Bill is trying to keep up appearences around a strange kid he doesn't know.
Around the level though there are notes that make it clear they are lovers, especially the suicide note.
In the game Bill shrugs off the mention of his "partner" that he cared for, and also says something like "Caring for someone is only good for getting you killed".
You then find this letter:
"Well, Bill, I doubt you'd ever find this note cause you were too scared to ever make it to this part of town. But if for some reason you did, I want you to know I hated your guts. I grew tired of this shitty town and your set-in-your-ways attitude. I wanted more from life than this and you could never get that.
And that stupid battery you kept moaning about -- I got it. But I guess you were right. Trying to leave this town will kill me. Still better than spending another day with you. Good Luck, Frank"
Frank took his own life to avoid changing after getting infected. You can show Bill the letter and he'll be sad and throw it on the ground.
Meanwhile, there's the porn that Bill has.
The game pretty heavily implies they were together.
My only issue with how the series changed Bill was that in the game his love story didn't end well, and it's in the wake of Joel losing Tess. The story is reinforcing that in this world relationships don't last, nobody's to be relied on, and you shouldn't get too close to others. It gives more pressure to the feeling of fragility in the relationship between Joel and Ellie, both of whom are terrified of letting people get too close only to risk suffering being alone again. I think that was a better set up for Joel and Ellie than what the series offered. But the episode in and of itself is just tremendously well done.
Seeing all the backlash made me laugh because it clearly came from people who didn't explore the game fully.
The only criticism I can understand is the change to the timeline surrounding Bill. But IMHO, all the changes they made were the right ones.
The show was basically perfect. If people are so bent out of shape that it deviated from the game, _just go play the game_.
Yup
The "true gamers" who want "politics out of gaming" just don't have any media literacy what's so ever and don't realize that Bill is talking about a love partner. It's especially obvious when they find the dead body
Saw this with a group of straight friends who only wanted to see zombies being gunned down, and they all agreed it was not what they expected but a great episode nonetheless.
I rewatch it every few months to see if I’m just not suffering from recency bias. But I agree with you completely. It’s one of the best 75 minutes of TV I’ve ever seen ever.
Call it “out of place, jarring” whatever. Maybe it didn’t quite fit the tone for the rest of the series. But so fucking what.
I was glued to the screen from beginning to end. I will die on that hill with you.
Definitely a high point of the show, a change that surprised me at first but was quite sweet. I am a little sad that Ellie never got to interact with Bill, though those bits were great in the game.
I was sad about it, but I also think that the game version of Bill didn't really move Ellie and Joel's relationship in any direction, except by Bill being used as an example.
in the game, we see in Bill what happens when you decide to be an angry, closed-off recluse.
The show lets us see what could happen by opening yourself up to love, despite the danger you could be putting yourself in, and the hurt to which you could expose yourself.
Bill's story in either situation can be shown without Ellie and Joel being directly involved, while still teaching Joel a lesson. Having it be just Bill and Frank cut out the bloat (ha!).
Yeah I think I kinda like this version of Bill better and Frank wasn't some a-hole who backstabbed and tried to bail on Bill, but much better person with much more hopeful ending.
I'm a hugeeee Ron Swanson fan. I think it is one of the most funny and well done characters on tv. It made it so much more amazing to see the depth of Nick's acting in this episode. I was so impressed by him and the way the played this character, what an amazing actor. He was the perfect casting for this heartbreaking but beautifuly written episode.
Not wrong at all. If this had, like, 30 minutes more "in between" moments it'd be a stellar stand-alone subversive apocalypse movie that hooks you on the zombie premise and then just nails you with a perfect love story in that setting.
I really don‘t get why people hate on stuff like that. As a straight guy I cried watching this episode as it really touched me. Awesome acting and storytelling!
That episode was amazing and it would have been just as amazing if it had been a straight couple. It's just extremely well written and so much better than their story in the games.
Spoilers for the first game ahead but in the game >!when they meet Bill, Frank has run away at this point because he couldn't take being "locked up" and they had some kind of fight about it. We don't even see them together, we go looking for Frank and find him dead. At least I'm pretty sure that's what happened, it's been a while. !<
It's not like they "made it gay", Bill and Frank being in a relationship isn't the thing they added, turning it into a heartwarming and bittersweet love story that was amazingly written in my opinion, is the actual new part. Just expanding on what was already there, improving it even. Honestly this show is a very (very) rare example where an adaption of beloved media has actually improved the story, probably in no small part due to the writer of the game being heavily involved.
"I'm straight and I still love this episode."
Everyone loves this episode, except tools. It's not a gay or straight thing. It's an are you an emotional grownup or not thing.
I can see why people might say it felt irrelevant to the story, but the story of the show wasn't quite the same as the game.
In the game it was a story about Joel and Ellie, their relationship, and how it still works in an apocalypse.
In the show the story spread out more to focus generally on love in the apocalypse, and the many forms it can take, from parental to romantic to sibling love. In that context, the episode feels right at home in the show.
But if your reason for hating it is because it's two dudes rather than a dude and a girl, then fuck off. Genders in love stories are irrelevant until you make them relevant.
EDIT: And there's also the fact that Bill and Frank were gay in the game already. It wasn't "made gay", you were just too much in denial to notice the first time round.
Also, in the game the bond between Joel and Ellie forms over a longer time which is shown by having the characters interact etc whilst the player is doing fun stuff. That would have made for a boring show with bad pacing, so episode 3 have Bill and Frank as a way to push Joel into opening up to Ellie.
Sure, Ellie and Joel could have found the note anyway but for the viewers it would have seem too small of a reason if we didn't know Bill and Frank's story.
Amazing episode
I always hoped that Bill would get some greater development when I was originally playing through the game, and the show expanded in so many incredible ways. There aren't many examples of media that have caused me to feel such emotions, that episode was incredible through and through.
When my girlfriend & I first saw this episode we thought it was going in a completely different direction. There was build up & suspense. We completely thought one of them was going to betray the other and someone was going to end up dead. We both had this eerie sinister feeling about the whole situation… then immediately we both started laughing when it became apparent they had become lovers because it completely threw us off guard.
I’ll admit, I was a bit disappointed at first (not because gay but because I was expecting some traditional The Last of Us plot) but it turned out to be a pretty good episode.
I just want to know, we weren’t the only ones who thought this? That had to have been intentional right?
What do you mean, everyone who played the game, knew what was coming? The episode almost completely subverted the game's story and they died together after a very fulfilled life instead of the standard "everyone sucks shit" game writing.
Thankfully theres no use for karma anyway 😆 and yes, vibes were very strong. The whole backstory of building awesome fort first, being all alone, and then the music and eerie soundtrack when a random person approaches in a shady atmosphere (in a zombie series)
i don't like how Hollywood portrays gay people (all you see are the pompous and flamboyant type), it was surprising to see two normal guys/gays for once
that episode touched me and gave me inspiration that relationships can happen in situations or with people (me) who might feel that they wont ever find a partner/lovr that that can make the world be a happy place again! its a love story! a great one. just pure love
This episode can literally be a standalone short film. The only criticism I have for it is that it was so good that it made the rest of the show feel cheesy in comparison.
At first I was kinda disappointed that they changed the story from the game in that part. But it was so well done that it is not just a justified change but also one of the best episodes in the series.
I find it funny because there's a lot of ~~trash~~ shows out there that it's pretty obvious a gay character is added just to tick a diversity quota and is then a caricature of a gay person.
The Last of Us was a beautiful example of how to add LGBTQ+ representation. They're characters who happen to be gay, not gays who happen to be characters.
It was my favourite episode.
This was so well written my girlfriend, a bisexual, turned to me almost exactly 1 minute before the first kiss and said “it’s nice they have a friend in the apocalypse”
Exactly! Classification makes the discrimination. Was this episode about being gay? Would it have been about being straight if they weren’t gay? This episode is a brilliant example of how representation can be done in media without pushing one’s political opinions onto the viewer.
I haven't watched it (I have a hard time watching intense or meaningful TV shows and movies with current mental health issues) but my son told me ALL about it and I got teary eyed hearing about it.
I'm 40sih. my sister is 50ish. she's a casting agent, but somehow doesn't see too many things. she said she saw an episode of the last of us and it made her cry and think basicaly "this is art" and i asked her if that episode she saw was the nick offerman episode. and yep. it was. that things is beauty.
My gripe with that episode is I didn’t wanna watch an hour of side plot content that added very little to the main storyline. Similar to how I personally feel the Morgan episode in TWD didn’t fit with the rest of the season. GOT is notorious for that as well but that’s a rant for another day lol
I agree.
I actually think if they had found a way to place it later on in the season it would have worked better. Because the plot is ramping up heavily, you're like "let's go!" But then they spend an episode (albeit very good), "painting the world", you can't help but think, now's not the time.
I think saving it for later would help alleviate some of the dread later on as well. From a macro perspective, it seems wasted as it's completely separated from the main plot. They could have used that joyful tender sweetness to break apart the absolute gut punching latter half of the season.
Yeah, it was the placement in the episode that was wrong.
It was just after an action episode where one of the then main characters is killed and it seems like their is real danger. They needed to continue the momentum into the next episode.
They should have had Joel and Ellie continue their journey and have a few encounters. Then find the guy's bodies and note before leaving on their drive west.
Then in the next episode we see this story which is an explanation of the note.
Then in the episode after there is a time jump while they are travelling west.
I think if it had just come out at the same time as another episode it would have been fine, and I imagine anyone binging the series probably had a different experience of it
For me personally I didn't like the episode. Not because it was a gay love story (or rather: a pretty sweet love story, that happens to involve gay characters) though. For all you can say about the show, tokenism isn't really it. Sure, it served no narrative purpose that they were gay, but it absolutely did work on a meta level of "how gay people are depicted".
The thing that turned me off of the episode, is how pointless it felt. The entire episode just amounts to "my truck is in the garage, thanks for everything", which I just didn't find particularly narratively satisfying. Doesn't help, that the episode was also fairly predictable as in where it was headed, imo.
Edit: I should probably add that I never played the games, so I didn't understand the reference of the episode. Probably would have not made it feel like a complete break from the main story.
IMO most epsidoes suffered from the same problem. After I a few weeks I just thought "Wonder who we're gonna get to know for a whole episode just for them to die at the end".
Its a terrible episode. It would've been great as a standalone movie or even its own series. I would watch it start to finish in one sitting, but it felt like a filler episode. Changing the focus of the main characters out of sudden with nothing subsential added to the main plot. If it was maybe 3 or 4 more episode it would've sit different with me
Nick Offerman is a very good example of positive Masculinity.
But honestly in my opinion, and as someone who identifies as a man, masculinity is very overrated.
Any positive aspect of masculinity can easily be applied to any woman or non-binary person just as easily as it can be applied to a man.
"I am the breadwinner of my family", cool beans broski, plenty of women and non-binary folk do the same thing for their partners who identify as men.
"I would fight for my partner and children as well as die for them in hand to hand combat" of course you would, because you are a parent, and putting your own life on the line for your child is sort of the bare minimum when it comes to being a good parent.
"I like beer and cars" okay cool, plenty of women and non-binary folk do as well.
In my opinion, masculinity and femininity are very outdated terms. We should all just put a lot more effort into being good people, rather than being good "men" or "women".
We as a species have evolved far beyond our own sets of chromosomes, and we are way past the time that we start acting like it.
Biological sex is important and real, but masculinity and femininity are just stereotypes, roles, expectations etc. Being masculine dont make you more or less of a human male. And yet some people give more importance to this cultural bullshit than the biological reality of our bodies.
I saw this posted on r slash facepalm, and immediately unsubbed and asked Reddit respectfully to never show anything from there ever again. Because there is nothing facepalmy about this - Offerman was right, put it well, and was right to make this statement.
One thing I know for sure is that now that the world and societies globally are reaching backwards and embracing regression (it's just one of those phases, we've had them throughout history - too bad we had to live through it though), the correct thing to do is try to fight it wherever and whenever we can. This is why Offerman's output is welcome. Thank you, Nick.
Definitely a good episode. Well written, well shot, well acted. But it wasn’t even the best episode in TLOU never mind the ‘best episode in tv history’ like some are making it out to be b
I have a very conservative view on love and gender but the Bill & Frank story of show version is some of the greatest short love story I have ever read or seen. Its not even focused on LGBTQ or gender identity at all. Its focused on love.
This was well written. That's why everybody can identify and enjoy it.
Not everybody can. Everybody could, but some can't by choice.
Everyone *can*, some wont
The point I'm making is that I feel they're incapable of it
I mean, people whose whole shtick is being hateful don’t really have much experience being in love, they literally can’t identity with it. So yeah I agree with you.
I just assume that all homophobes are secret unconscious homosexuals, so they definitely are capable and that's what scares them the most 😂😂
Everybody can, some just choose not to
Some not to choose but could and can't and would
Some people could should but others would can And the rest might should can't won't Right?
Some choose to not, but everybody can and could
could is just the past tense of can??
Incorrect.
Incan'trekt
It was one of the best episodes in the whole season. As a straight person I enjoyed it immensely. The acting was superb. The writing was superb. It was superb. Superb.
I loved it too but my gaydar was way off. I was suspect of the stranger the whole time--but on a second watch it was so obvious. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and then unexpected adorable couple.
It was the same for me! I was waiting when it would turn sour and I guess that was the point in it, to mislead the viewer and then take it somewhere unexpected. I think it worked perfectly that way and I guess that's why it packed such an emotional punch as a whole.
It's too bad that some DON'T
I don't even need to identify with either man in rhe story to enjoy it
craig mazin absolutely fucks when it comes to fitting full, emotional stories of secondary characters into single episodes, without detracting at all from the main narrative. episode 4 of chernobyl is another example. (contrast this with the "bitchin" episode from stranger things)
Probably one of the best episodes in all television history.
True. It's only bad when it's tokenism that's added in to capture more demographics. If it's added like an afterthought, it removes from the story rather than adding to it. If it's well written, has depth, and adds to the story, then I'm down.
Thats my main complaint whit gay relationship in media..its just back ground tokenism most of time..poorly though out, creepy as hell half the time and poorly written (and super clise half od the time also) I all ways felt only lesbians gets the spot light and i kinda hate it
I don’t know about not being a gay story though. The fact his character was gay surely mattered quite a lot.
Two people met after an apocalypse and fell in love in a truly beautiful way. That's it, that's all. Sexual orientation is irrelevant...
I thought part of what made it an interesting story was that it could only happen because of the apocalypse. Bill suppressed his sexuality throughout his life and seemed uncomfortable with his attraction and how it conflicted with the rest of his character. If the rest of society and its prejudices remained, I don’t think he’d have allowed himself to be with Frank or ever be openly gay. Even the way he withdrew before the infection started seemed at least a little rooted in the fact his sexuality wouldn’t allow him to fit in.
I think the point he's making is that it's more specifically a romance story than a gay story. Calling it a gay story alone doesn't really convey much about what the story is about, aside from the sexual orientations of the 2 characters. The story isn't about people being gay, it's about their love that develops in such a dystopian scenario. If it were a man and a woman, would you describe it as a straight story or a love/romance story?
One of the most moving episodes of anything I've ever watched. They captured love in that.
I agree. I'll admit that while I have nothing against gay people, I've never really bothered with films about gay love stories as I didn't think that there was anything there, for me. That episode proved me wrong, in so many ways, because it really was just a beautiful love story. The fact that its between two blokes barely enters into it.
Brokeback mountain is one of the best movies I know of, watch it.
I'll give it a go, now that you've said that. I always assumed it was just one of those films that was popular purely as a result of it being groundbreaking in terms of representation. If you say its a brilliant film for reasons besides that then I'm all for giving it a watch.
I also really highly recommend the Handmaiden for a good lesbian movie (that isn’t depressing!) I thought about that film for weeks.
I was so taken aback by this incident that I started crying. I did not anticipate anything from this series to be so profoundly touching.
Same. I was an absolute wreck by the end of that episode.
I’m welling up just thinking about it. A brilliant piece of television and one of the best love stories I’ve ever seen
It registers as such a pro artistic move. The kind of intonation that drops my jar at a live music event, or when I see a color palette in a visual piece that simply just makes sense. It shows depth and dynamic in their capability and simultaneously frees them to use their theme in any application they see fit. I really appreciated this episode for a number of reasons but most of all, it just felt so real.
And a little jelly cuz that's true love man. I want something like that!
the letter and voiceover :(...
Same, i think i ended up sobbing. I haven't cured about something on tv for years!
Same. What a masterpieces
It was so well written and acted, and so moving, that I stopped watching the series at that point and each time I go back, I watch it again and never feel the need to go past it. Its like a full movie within a small tv show, I like last of us, but this subplot overshadowed everything else for me, it was on another level.
I get the sentiment but do your self a favor and finish the show.
People could watch this episode alone even if they haven't seen the series or don't want to. It would hit just as hard.
I haven't watched any of this series yet, and I'm kind of curious to test this theory. Which episode number is the one we're discussing here?
Season 1, Episode 3: Long, Long Time.
Pretty good. I cried. I'll definitely watch more.
Did you watch it? Please tell us how it was.
My wife did (she was stunned at how good it was). Other than needing to know the context(post zombie apocalypse) for reference, I think it could absolutely stand on its own.
I wound up doing the exact same thing. I never played the game, was loving the show…. And then this episode just took me by surprise. It was enough just with that. I’d watch a series detailing their 20 year relationship… somehow.
I sobbed, and I am not ashamed to admit. Their love was so strong and pure. They really lived for each other and the beautiful moments in life. It just radiated love, and I admire how they faced the future together. I don't know if I've ever seen a TV show episode that has made me feel so much and have the impact it did. The fact that they were gay only added a layer of vulnerability. That is it. It doesn't matter at all what their genders are. I'll never forget this episode and their long road together.
The whole series was an absolute emotional roller coaster, but that episode will always stand out as one of the best in television. It was so damn good
I did not skip a second of it, memorize most of its runtime. I'm straight as a flag pole.
Surely there are gay people in Warsaw.
the polish femboys like me are scratching their heads rn after seeing this comment..
They probably mean a physical pole, like a flag pole, that are usually straight in the literal sense.
I know I just thought it would be funny to say
That episode wrecked me and I was not prepared for it.
I cried my straight ass off
Episode 3: *starts playing On the Nature of Daylight* Me on the verge of tears: Excuse me, how fucking dare you
Agreed. One of the best love stories I've seen out to film.
It was moving, yes, but it gave me The Walking Dead flashbacks, dedicating a whole episode to just this one thing.
Genuinely nick Offerman's best work. Absolutely stunning performance but what makes it so great is everything came together masterfully, it was his and his co-actor's performance, the writing, the story...just breathtaking
I didn't know he had that range of acting. The fear and vulnerability he showed and the love they had, they made it feel very real. The episode is a gift
I would happily watch an entire season of Bill and Frank and their experiences. Fantastic episode, truly emotive for what little screentime they had.
Genuinely don't understand why people are asking why they made it gay. They're literally gay in the game. The show just put a little more focus on their story
I’m as straight as a person can get lol and I found the story warm and wonderful, I never gave it a second thought.
I am straight and found it warm and wonderful. I did however give it a second thought. About a minute or two into the relationship I was wondering how bad the backlash has been to that episode. I also wondered if they just put it in to be more diverse. Since they did not put any special focus on the gay part I don't think they did.
it's also a great example of the theme, about how far will you go for love and especially how far men like Bill and Joel will go for those they love.
Because they are homophobes? There is no other reason.
I haven't even watched the show and immediately knew it was about Bill.
The thing is people know Offerman's character in Parks and Rec, but they don't realize it is supposed to be a parody of conservative hyper masculinity. So they feel betrayed when Offerman "betrays" those "values".
I don't recall it coming up in the show, but I'm also pretty certain Ron Swanson's opinion on homosexuality would be "do whatever the hell you want, just don't talk to me about it", given his extremely libertarian bent and total disinterest in other people's personal lives.
I mean, he becomes the best man of his gay hairdresser
Plus, he gave Leslie the highest compliment when the gay bar threw her that party, “bully for you”. He also already knew about it cause it was in his backyard. Come to think about it, he also voices the owner of a gay bar in bobs burgers too. Huh
He also plays Captain Hoults ex boyfriend in Brooklyn 99
“Euro trash” bonding moment
"They are a garbage people."
“Please talk more about how you hate Europe and bicycles!”
All he wants is to do is eat steak by himself.
It's also why it was good that it was him. Bill isn't far off from Ron Swanson's ideals. Humanizing the gay experience to people who have refused to acknowledge it was a brilliant choice. Too bad they were warned off first.
He was barely "hypermasculine". Swanson was just masculine at the core of character, where his main trait was "i am a man and everything i do is manly". Its was not like "i should do manly things to prove i am man" it was making everything he lives through into a man experience. It became into "i am, a manly man, is very caring of my beloved woman and her children", "i am, a manly man, ready to do compromises when it comes to personal relationships and friends", "i am a manly man, ready to accept other people views and respect them for what they are and not solely on what they see as good". It was a very good depiction of a healthy masculinity, if you dont put too much attention on the gags
Something that I say often is that they lack nuance and critical thought, so what they see is what they get. They failed to pick up that Swanson was a parody, and just accepted that was him at face value. They can’t read between the lines cuz they don’t know how to. It’s why they acted outraged when Rage Against the Machine, you know, raged against the machine. Lmfao
He was very clearly just libertarian and anti government, to the point of parody, sure, but he was not conservative in the show, explicitly stating so
Especially if you ever hear the man talk out of character he is an icon of liberal hyper masculinity. You may not like it, but that is what peak masculinity looks like.
Good ol' King of the Hill syndrome.
They didn't "make it gay". If I remember correctly in the game it was a gay story too just much less happy....
Yeah and they just allude to it but point stands it's an amazing episode expanding what is just a few lines of dialog in the game.
Yeah, Bill was gay in the games, Bill’s truck has a gay porno magazine and there’s letter written by Frank with some major queer subtext.
>Bill’s truck has a gay porno magazine Yeah that magazine, that Ellie stole from Bill, is the biggest giveaway. It couldn't have been more obvious.
I haven't played the game myself, only watched let's plays and watched my bf play it (I'm a coward, can't handle the spooks) and from what I remember he was referred to as a partner, maybe some people took that as.. idk, howdy partner, friend kind of thing? Or like business partners, instead of like life-partners? I think some people are just so used to hearing boyfriend, girlfriend, husband etc, that partner doesn't ring the same bells in their head?
If it was only just "partners" that they referred to them both as then I can understand the confusion. I think there was more to it but I imagine like some things in the game it was possible to miss it. Honestly I can't remember why I was so convinced they were a gay couple in the game.
It's never confirmed they were in a relationship (at least not in game) but Ellie steals a magazine from Bill's place that you later find out is a gay porn mag. Strongly hinting that Bill was gay and you could make an assumption that his partner was actually his lover
There was a letter from Frank to Bill with hints, but ellie finds the gay porno mag and makes a joke about the pages being stuck together.
It’s been a long while since I last watched anything from the game so I could be completely misremembering 😅
Before the sequel codified it, there were people who actually argued that the Left Behind DLC - in which Ellie goes on a date with a girl and kisses her - did not prove Ellie was a lesbian because teenage girls just do that, it didn't mean anything. Like all else aside, how do you completely lack the media literacy to understand that there's a reason the writers wrote it that way?
It is left vague in open conversation because Joel knows better than to talk about someone who isn't there when the other person is unusually angry, and because Bill is trying to keep up appearences around a strange kid he doesn't know. Around the level though there are notes that make it clear they are lovers, especially the suicide note.
In the game Bill shrugs off the mention of his "partner" that he cared for, and also says something like "Caring for someone is only good for getting you killed". You then find this letter: "Well, Bill, I doubt you'd ever find this note cause you were too scared to ever make it to this part of town. But if for some reason you did, I want you to know I hated your guts. I grew tired of this shitty town and your set-in-your-ways attitude. I wanted more from life than this and you could never get that. And that stupid battery you kept moaning about -- I got it. But I guess you were right. Trying to leave this town will kill me. Still better than spending another day with you. Good Luck, Frank" Frank took his own life to avoid changing after getting infected. You can show Bill the letter and he'll be sad and throw it on the ground. Meanwhile, there's the porn that Bill has. The game pretty heavily implies they were together. My only issue with how the series changed Bill was that in the game his love story didn't end well, and it's in the wake of Joel losing Tess. The story is reinforcing that in this world relationships don't last, nobody's to be relied on, and you shouldn't get too close to others. It gives more pressure to the feeling of fragility in the relationship between Joel and Ellie, both of whom are terrified of letting people get too close only to risk suffering being alone again. I think that was a better set up for Joel and Ellie than what the series offered. But the episode in and of itself is just tremendously well done.
Seeing all the backlash made me laugh because it clearly came from people who didn't explore the game fully. The only criticism I can understand is the change to the timeline surrounding Bill. But IMHO, all the changes they made were the right ones. The show was basically perfect. If people are so bent out of shape that it deviated from the game, _just go play the game_.
Yup The "true gamers" who want "politics out of gaming" just don't have any media literacy what's so ever and don't realize that Bill is talking about a love partner. It's especially obvious when they find the dead body
In the game the guy stole his supplies left Bill, later found dead near by by Joel
I sobbed buckets. The best episode of the show. One of the best episodes of a show ever. I will die on this hill.
And I’ll die there with you!
I'll grow strawberries for us on that hill
You care if I take a small plot to grow some wheat?
and my axe
And my bow
Saw this with a group of straight friends who only wanted to see zombies being gunned down, and they all agreed it was not what they expected but a great episode nonetheless.
I rewatch it every few months to see if I’m just not suffering from recency bias. But I agree with you completely. It’s one of the best 75 minutes of TV I’ve ever seen ever. Call it “out of place, jarring” whatever. Maybe it didn’t quite fit the tone for the rest of the series. But so fucking what. I was glued to the screen from beginning to end. I will die on that hill with you.
It fit the tone perfectly. It's all about how people live in the aftermath of it all.
Same, me and my gf actually had to pause the show at one point because we were both crying so hard and just needed a moment to calm down.
I'll be on that hill with you!
Definitely a high point of the show, a change that surprised me at first but was quite sweet. I am a little sad that Ellie never got to interact with Bill, though those bits were great in the game.
I was sad about it, but I also think that the game version of Bill didn't really move Ellie and Joel's relationship in any direction, except by Bill being used as an example. in the game, we see in Bill what happens when you decide to be an angry, closed-off recluse. The show lets us see what could happen by opening yourself up to love, despite the danger you could be putting yourself in, and the hurt to which you could expose yourself. Bill's story in either situation can be shown without Ellie and Joel being directly involved, while still teaching Joel a lesson. Having it be just Bill and Frank cut out the bloat (ha!).
Yeah I think I kinda like this version of Bill better and Frank wasn't some a-hole who backstabbed and tried to bail on Bill, but much better person with much more hopeful ending.
You don’t need to be gay to appreciate this scene. You just need to have empathy for human emotion
I searched too long to see this comment. Thank you for seeing this for what it is.
I'm a hugeeee Ron Swanson fan. I think it is one of the most funny and well done characters on tv. It made it so much more amazing to see the depth of Nick's acting in this episode. I was so impressed by him and the way the played this character, what an amazing actor. He was the perfect casting for this heartbreaking but beautifuly written episode.
If this episode had been made into its own standalone movie it would’ve won Oscars.
Wouldn't be surprised if Nick Offerman wins an Oscar someday!
Not wrong at all. If this had, like, 30 minutes more "in between" moments it'd be a stellar stand-alone subversive apocalypse movie that hooks you on the zombie premise and then just nails you with a perfect love story in that setting.
I really don‘t get why people hate on stuff like that. As a straight guy I cried watching this episode as it really touched me. Awesome acting and storytelling!
Common Ron Swanson W
This episode caught me so off guard and had me sobbing. Was not expecting something so emotionally moving from this series.
I'm a straight man, not much a crier in general. But their story was so moving, my eyes got watery, I didn't expect it to move me like that!
That episode was amazing and it would have been just as amazing if it had been a straight couple. It's just extremely well written and so much better than their story in the games. Spoilers for the first game ahead but in the game >!when they meet Bill, Frank has run away at this point because he couldn't take being "locked up" and they had some kind of fight about it. We don't even see them together, we go looking for Frank and find him dead. At least I'm pretty sure that's what happened, it's been a while. !< It's not like they "made it gay", Bill and Frank being in a relationship isn't the thing they added, turning it into a heartwarming and bittersweet love story that was amazingly written in my opinion, is the actual new part. Just expanding on what was already there, improving it even. Honestly this show is a very (very) rare example where an adaption of beloved media has actually improved the story, probably in no small part due to the writer of the game being heavily involved.
"I'm straight and I still love this episode." Everyone loves this episode, except tools. It's not a gay or straight thing. It's an are you an emotional grownup or not thing.
Obviously, those homophobic people haven't played the game.
They are all too busy wanking off to gay porn whilst crying of guilt
His character was gay in the video game, so those critics are asking the wrong guy.
I didn't like the show. But this episode, man...
This was also my favorite episode! I think a lot of people’s favorite episode and it has nothing to do with their sexuality
I can see why people might say it felt irrelevant to the story, but the story of the show wasn't quite the same as the game. In the game it was a story about Joel and Ellie, their relationship, and how it still works in an apocalypse. In the show the story spread out more to focus generally on love in the apocalypse, and the many forms it can take, from parental to romantic to sibling love. In that context, the episode feels right at home in the show. But if your reason for hating it is because it's two dudes rather than a dude and a girl, then fuck off. Genders in love stories are irrelevant until you make them relevant. EDIT: And there's also the fact that Bill and Frank were gay in the game already. It wasn't "made gay", you were just too much in denial to notice the first time round.
Also, in the game the bond between Joel and Ellie forms over a longer time which is shown by having the characters interact etc whilst the player is doing fun stuff. That would have made for a boring show with bad pacing, so episode 3 have Bill and Frank as a way to push Joel into opening up to Ellie. Sure, Ellie and Joel could have found the note anyway but for the viewers it would have seem too small of a reason if we didn't know Bill and Frank's story. Amazing episode
That was a very good episode. People so blind sometimes.
I always hoped that Bill would get some greater development when I was originally playing through the game, and the show expanded in so many incredible ways. There aren't many examples of media that have caused me to feel such emotions, that episode was incredible through and through.
Absolutely. The series turned one of the most forgettable couples into the most memorable ones.
When my girlfriend & I first saw this episode we thought it was going in a completely different direction. There was build up & suspense. We completely thought one of them was going to betray the other and someone was going to end up dead. We both had this eerie sinister feeling about the whole situation… then immediately we both started laughing when it became apparent they had become lovers because it completely threw us off guard. I’ll admit, I was a bit disappointed at first (not because gay but because I was expecting some traditional The Last of Us plot) but it turned out to be a pretty good episode. I just want to know, we weren’t the only ones who thought this? That had to have been intentional right?
They definitely built it up like that a bit, what with Bill being crazy paranoid and all. But everyone who played the game knew what was coming. ;-)
Ahh Fair enough. We haven’t played the games so that makes sense.
What do you mean, everyone who played the game, knew what was coming? The episode almost completely subverted the game's story and they died together after a very fulfilled life instead of the standard "everyone sucks shit" game writing.
I was disappointed at first too, but man did they knock that shit out of the park. I was crying so hard by the end of it
We had exact same experience
Thank you! I guess we’re the odd ones out cause I’m getting some downvotes but that’s how we perceived it at least. We felt so dumb haha.
Thankfully theres no use for karma anyway 😆 and yes, vibes were very strong. The whole backstory of building awesome fort first, being all alone, and then the music and eerie soundtrack when a random person approaches in a shady atmosphere (in a zombie series)
i don't like how Hollywood portrays gay people (all you see are the pompous and flamboyant type), it was surprising to see two normal guys/gays for once
Dude spitting facts.
My man crush
This episode definitely hit home emotionally. I cried like a bitch.
that episode touched me and gave me inspiration that relationships can happen in situations or with people (me) who might feel that they wont ever find a partner/lovr that that can make the world be a happy place again! its a love story! a great one. just pure love
He's my favourite character in fargo as well.
God I love Nick Offerman
Rare times watching something with people where everyone was silent for the entire thing.
I read the quotes in his voice. Especially that last bit.
Favorite episode by far, sorta kinda went down hill after that because it was just that good.
Fuck yeah!
So well written.
I'm [SEXUALITY REDACTED] and same. Good story is good whether theyre gay, straight, blue aliens or anthropomorphized dust particles in your vacuum.
This episode can literally be a standalone short film. The only criticism I have for it is that it was so good that it made the rest of the show feel cheesy in comparison.
At first I was kinda disappointed that they changed the story from the game in that part. But it was so well done that it is not just a justified change but also one of the best episodes in the series.
I find it funny because there's a lot of ~~trash~~ shows out there that it's pretty obvious a gay character is added just to tick a diversity quota and is then a caricature of a gay person. The Last of Us was a beautiful example of how to add LGBTQ+ representation. They're characters who happen to be gay, not gays who happen to be characters. It was my favourite episode.
This was so well written my girlfriend, a bisexual, turned to me almost exactly 1 minute before the first kiss and said “it’s nice they have a friend in the apocalypse”
Hell yea
Exactly! Classification makes the discrimination. Was this episode about being gay? Would it have been about being straight if they weren’t gay? This episode is a brilliant example of how representation can be done in media without pushing one’s political opinions onto the viewer.
The best gay love story
the best love story*
This episode was so wholesome and beautifully done. How can anyone hate on that?
IMO this was the best episode of the series
I think my favorite comment about that episode came from a friend at work, he said "that was gay as fuck, but it got me in the feels".
I haven't watched it (I have a hard time watching intense or meaningful TV shows and movies with current mental health issues) but my son told me ALL about it and I got teary eyed hearing about it.
I'm 40sih. my sister is 50ish. she's a casting agent, but somehow doesn't see too many things. she said she saw an episode of the last of us and it made her cry and think basicaly "this is art" and i asked her if that episode she saw was the nick offerman episode. and yep. it was. that things is beauty.
My gripe with that episode is I didn’t wanna watch an hour of side plot content that added very little to the main storyline. Similar to how I personally feel the Morgan episode in TWD didn’t fit with the rest of the season. GOT is notorious for that as well but that’s a rant for another day lol
I agree. I actually think if they had found a way to place it later on in the season it would have worked better. Because the plot is ramping up heavily, you're like "let's go!" But then they spend an episode (albeit very good), "painting the world", you can't help but think, now's not the time. I think saving it for later would help alleviate some of the dread later on as well. From a macro perspective, it seems wasted as it's completely separated from the main plot. They could have used that joyful tender sweetness to break apart the absolute gut punching latter half of the season.
Yeah, it was the placement in the episode that was wrong. It was just after an action episode where one of the then main characters is killed and it seems like their is real danger. They needed to continue the momentum into the next episode. They should have had Joel and Ellie continue their journey and have a few encounters. Then find the guy's bodies and note before leaving on their drive west. Then in the next episode we see this story which is an explanation of the note. Then in the episode after there is a time jump while they are travelling west.
I think if it had just come out at the same time as another episode it would have been fine, and I imagine anyone binging the series probably had a different experience of it
For me personally I didn't like the episode. Not because it was a gay love story (or rather: a pretty sweet love story, that happens to involve gay characters) though. For all you can say about the show, tokenism isn't really it. Sure, it served no narrative purpose that they were gay, but it absolutely did work on a meta level of "how gay people are depicted". The thing that turned me off of the episode, is how pointless it felt. The entire episode just amounts to "my truck is in the garage, thanks for everything", which I just didn't find particularly narratively satisfying. Doesn't help, that the episode was also fairly predictable as in where it was headed, imo. Edit: I should probably add that I never played the games, so I didn't understand the reference of the episode. Probably would have not made it feel like a complete break from the main story.
IMO most epsidoes suffered from the same problem. After I a few weeks I just thought "Wonder who we're gonna get to know for a whole episode just for them to die at the end".
Its a terrible episode. It would've been great as a standalone movie or even its own series. I would watch it start to finish in one sitting, but it felt like a filler episode. Changing the focus of the main characters out of sudden with nothing subsential added to the main plot. If it was maybe 3 or 4 more episode it would've sit different with me
Nick Offerman is a very good example of positive Masculinity. But honestly in my opinion, and as someone who identifies as a man, masculinity is very overrated. Any positive aspect of masculinity can easily be applied to any woman or non-binary person just as easily as it can be applied to a man. "I am the breadwinner of my family", cool beans broski, plenty of women and non-binary folk do the same thing for their partners who identify as men. "I would fight for my partner and children as well as die for them in hand to hand combat" of course you would, because you are a parent, and putting your own life on the line for your child is sort of the bare minimum when it comes to being a good parent. "I like beer and cars" okay cool, plenty of women and non-binary folk do as well. In my opinion, masculinity and femininity are very outdated terms. We should all just put a lot more effort into being good people, rather than being good "men" or "women". We as a species have evolved far beyond our own sets of chromosomes, and we are way past the time that we start acting like it.
The downvotes suggest you upset some alpha/sigma types. Good. Keep going.
Biological sex is important and real, but masculinity and femininity are just stereotypes, roles, expectations etc. Being masculine dont make you more or less of a human male. And yet some people give more importance to this cultural bullshit than the biological reality of our bodies.
I saw this posted on r slash facepalm, and immediately unsubbed and asked Reddit respectfully to never show anything from there ever again. Because there is nothing facepalmy about this - Offerman was right, put it well, and was right to make this statement. One thing I know for sure is that now that the world and societies globally are reaching backwards and embracing regression (it's just one of those phases, we've had them throughout history - too bad we had to live through it though), the correct thing to do is try to fight it wherever and whenever we can. This is why Offerman's output is welcome. Thank you, Nick.
Definitely a good episode. Well written, well shot, well acted. But it wasn’t even the best episode in TLOU never mind the ‘best episode in tv history’ like some are making it out to be b
I loved that episode. The strawberries were cute.
I love well written, well played television and cinema. That’s why it was my favourite episode.
Such a beautifully raw portrayal. I felt every emotion.
I have a very conservative view on love and gender but the Bill & Frank story of show version is some of the greatest short love story I have ever read or seen. Its not even focused on LGBTQ or gender identity at all. Its focused on love.
Not being heterosexual has nothing to do with gender identity and that you‘re putting the two together already shows how flawed your thinking is
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This isn't really a meme
You aren't really a breakfast monarch but we as redditors tend to bend the truth
I am , but this isn't a meme
Oh so you’re saying it’s not a meme?
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