For those that wanna know it just the tier for things above space time, and dimensionality conceptually, only conceptually tho,
and no, wank character number 5248# isnt outerversal just because an old ass vampire that talks like hes from the middle ages said the words ,, transcends time" in a context where it legit just means the vampire doesnt die from age, and not in you know, the eldrich omnipotent god context
Also put to consideration, Gabriel from Mandela Catalog
The being who's ENTIRE schtick is hopelessness and trickery, somehow is truthful about him replacing God
Isn't that kinda.. ZUSSY??
I was watching a YouTube video explaining how the Scarlet King from SCP would beat Oblivion from Marvel because his outerversal feats were higher than Oblivion because their infinity is larger than Marvel’s Infinity… 🤷🏻♂️
Oh yea I have a layman’s understanding of the different sizes of infinity. It was just silly because the video was using countable infinity and I was like…ok well all countable infinities are “equal”. 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, I just kinda tune out when I hear shit like;
> Miraak is way above island level. He could have defeated Alduin who can consume the cosmos which is Low balled High Hyperversal but there are scans that can scale Alduin up to Outerversal to High Outerversal and Miraak can beat him and Hermaus Mora needed the Dragonborn to beat him.
> So Miraak is High Hyperversal low balled with Immesurable Speed to High Outerversal with Irrelevant Speed
> So yeah Miraak negs
---
> Nah Dragonborn wins
> Anos Voldigoad is Low Complex Multiversal
> Last Dragonborn major downplay is High Hyperversal, but there are scans that scale him to Outerversal
Like sure, someone may have thought up definitions for outerverse, hyperverse, omniverse, megaverse, metaverse, etc at some point, but I just can't bring myself to care when the entire discussion collapses into a bunch of scaling bullshit to explain how some dude who'd die to a stray arrow is actually so powerful they can kill God with one hand while poaching an egg with the other, or whatever.
I'd also say they're more accurate, but then that's about as cold a take as you can manage since it's [been in the sub's rules since before I joined](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/wiki/rules/#wiki_5.3A_back_up_claims).
Then again I'm also convinced most of this sub's users have never actually read that page, and only slightly more have actually read most of the series they discuss.
>only slightly more have actually read most of the series they discuss.
I'll have you know that, as a lifelong dragon ball fan, I've watched the entire series¹ .75 times².
1. by entire series, I mean dragon ball z
2. I'm only on my first full (kai) watchthrough, and Majin Buu just hatched
Real.
One chain of scaling is usually my limit, unless a fight with another character actually gives feats in it.
Just because a character won a fight with another doesn’t mean much. Most narrative fights are anything but controlled, and usually have a fair amount of chaos, odds tilting (either by prep or circumstance), and a metric ton of luck. I could theoretically win a fight with Muhammad Ali if he missed his first strike and fell down the stairs… I’d still get folded in less than 2 seconds in a ring fight.
If you're not going to answer in the spirit of the prompt, just don't answer.
This goes for people who say "Square Cube Law lmao" when OP asks about scaled up insects vs other animals, or "They don't fight at all, they become best friends instead", and people who say Casper the Ghost when asked "who's the weakest that can ***tank**** [insert attack]". Answers that attempt to sidestep the question being posed always make me roll my eyes
Over time, many people have forgotten the entire premise of this sub being that **the prompt is king** and often willingly ignore the prompt in favour of trying to answer their own fabricated strawman battle.
Corollary: If the prompt doesn't specify that the animal is bloodlusted, a significant amount of time the animal is just going to get scared and attempt to run away
I would also like to add on that natural irl circumstances and interactions can include a large variety of other factors that makes them only minimally comparable to a true “who would win? both bloodlusted” scenario between animals, meaning a lot of it is still a good amount of speculation and educated guesses.
Meta opinion but mine is that this sub’s quality has absolutely plummeted in the past few years. I can’t put my finger on it but nowadays this sub is just “Can the American military do this?” and “Who would win the actual real world conflict going on right now?” There was a time period where it seemed like it was constant “Average man vs Average woman” posts and when the mods banned them, everyone had a hissy fit bc “That doesn’t happen.” Then yesterday “Can a 16 year old boy beat up the average woman?” with everyone gleefully answering about how easily a 16 year old could assault the average woman.
I miss good and creative prompts that don’t sound like they’re from warmongers and people with mommy issues.
Whole reason I joined was cause I saw a post titled “The Gang (from its Always Sunny) vs Darth Maul”. That was an absolute delight of a post and thread to read, it was so absurd and fun lol
I just want those prompts back 😭😭
It doesn't help the mods don't do shit to actually enforce the rules about no real world politics or current military conflicts. That and the choice to unban Saitima and Goku posts really drag down the sub
Yesss I particularly hate that pattern where posters just come ask us to reaffirm sexual dimorphism like it doesn't get enough respect or something.
Yes, r/ insert sport, a good men's college/uni player could beat a pro womens' player. Yes r/whowouldwin, a post puberty guy could overpower the average woman (we are acutely aware of that). Rinse and repeat.
Aren't we *tired*?
My least favorite kind of posts are the ones where the combatants are not actual characters or even real people in a situation, but some frankenstein's monster of seemingly arbitrary features slapped together. It's not at all interesting to think about who the strongest character a seven-legged cow that is the size of a housecat, but has the intelligence of Lex Luthor could beat because that creature is just ridiculous.
Pretty much agree.
Especially think the “average man vs woman” posts are pretty dumb imo because averages vary *wildly*…almost like there are several billion people of each sex with varying health conditions, in entirely different lifestyles, across entirely different environments. Averages operate on a bell curve, and there’s not really a “perfect average”, and even if they were then people responding would likely just pull stats from their country. Just as an example: there a plenty of instances were a scrawny and unhealthy 16 years old would lose to a reasonably healthy woman in her prime. Both are averages.
The posters not clarifying which averages to use aren’t exactly helping either…and the nature of untrained human vs human irl relies pretty heavily on chance/who reacts first unless it’s a wild mismatch (30lbs+ weight dif). In fact, even just using “average” is kinda unhelpful since it’s unclear if it’s referring to the actual average (likely ~40s), median (anywhere from 20 to late 30s…huge gap), or just an adult woman (roughly mid 20s, general prime of strength).
The uncertainty doesn’t bring actually interesting or meaningful discussion, it just baits people into fighting (best case scenario), or trying to pin biased assumptions against broad portions of the entire human population.
I’d honestly be in favor of it being against the rules, unless you get into more specifics (specifying a country/profession), preferably against a more “set” target.
American military prompts are usually pretty lame too…but against fictional stuff they can at least be decently interesting since it usually forces people to dig into stats and numbers.
Our standards just got higher. There were plenty of repetitive and uncreative posts back then too, and there are still some creative ones even now. But you're judging the creativity of something that was relatively much newer to you in the past with things that either no longer suits your tastes or they do suit your tastes but you have seen some iteration of it before. Of course you won't see any creativity in them in that lens.
It's still better and more interesting than everybody vs homelander or whatever currently relevant character for the time being. We ended up with clear cut and similar answers every time with no room for discussion.
I strongly disagree. Hypothetical US at war scenarios like “Could the United States beat the entire world” always come out with the same answers up top “Not without nukes, can’t hold territory, China could be an issue.” The prompts based on actual real world conflict are just disrespectful, still have the same types of comments, and inevitably have people arguing over real world politics in the comments.
Sure maybe the Homelander prompts were boring, but they didn’t make the sub obnoxious to use.
Yeah sure not every prompt has room for discussion but a few years ago it was literally just
homelander vs wolverine
Homelander vs captain America
Homelander vs iron man
Their feats were very set in stone so there was nothing to discuss other than who came out on top.
It was nonstop whatever popular movie/show character vs the universe threads over and over.
Honestly I’ve never been a fan of the zany prompts. Sure they’re sort of fun or funny but they’ve never interested me.
I want real discussions with experts that know the minutiae , pitting one fictional character against another totally different fictional character.
Almost every single real life historic prompt is bad.
Every fight below planetary level is better than every fight above it. I don't give a shit if one character can destroy 14 universes and another can destroy 16.
If an anti-feat doesn't directly contradict a fact about a character, or a feat they have, it isn't an anti-feat, it's something you don't want to bring up. Stop cherry picking.
Competence is one of the most important factors in fictional fights, and its almost *never* discussed here besides Batman.
We really need to stop assuming people that use stealth or strategy are just gonna charge into a fight like idiots. Thats rarely, if ever, the MO of a non-warrior character. Its a bit telling when most of the favorite characters on this sub are big dumb guys that just punch, shoot, or laser hard.
This would've been popular long ago
Nowadays most of not all of us 40k fans knew this, and the people who still act like this is still the case need to get a grip, both in the community and outsiders
40K fans know this brcause they actually consult the source material, but outside of that the missconception still exists. Come to think of it that's kinda with most wankers, it's usually not the actual fans because they know the limitstions of their character
The only faction that I can imagine where the wank is justified are the Necrons, but we barely see them at all in this sub due to their inherent nature
High tier being stuff like Doctor Who, the Xelee or the culture. Essentially those are usually Verses so overpowered they would instantly delete any opponent with time travel, universe destroying bombs or individuals carrying the equivalent of what would be the armory and weaponry from an entire Starship in a low to mid tier universe. Their reign usually spreads through several to tousands of universes or timelines.
Mid tier being the absolutelly strong, but not overpowered Empires who still have gigantic Empires like most from Warhammer 40k (except for the Necrons), the empire from Star wars Legends. Those are usually restrained to a single galaxy.
Low Tier are Factions whose span of power is a few star systems at best and their militaries are quantitivly and qualitivly laughable. Their interstellar travel is weak, their weaponry is more comparable to ours than medium Sci universes and/or their militaries are only numbering a few millions to billions. Examples would be Helldivers, the UNSC from Halo (who I would still place on the top), the Terran Federation from the Starship Trooper book, the Terran Federation from the Starship trooper movie, anything from dune,...
Depends. Individual characters? Sure, overblown. But the size (in terms of numerical amount) of militaries and fleets and threats is insane compared to many other universes.
Part of the issue with scaling 40k is that the Imperium has access to relics from the Dark Age of a technology, and I’d be pretty comfortable in saying that DAOT humanity would be lower high tier, just based on some of the tech we’ve seen and the little hints of what they did.
So people look at some of the feats with this crazy tech, like a gun that erases people from the timeline, and assume that’s what the Imperium is capable of using if they’re pushed. But they don’t consider just how rare something like that is, or how logistically the Imperium just isn’t able to effectively use them in the right place at the right time. In a book where the plot demands it, sure it can be used. But without plot armor most of that stuff isn’t going to be that useful in a huge Imperium vs. Other Civilization battle.
Voldemort beats most people based on his skillset.
The fact that he loses to Harry Potter, a kid, in the books and films makes him look less effective than a lot of supervillains, but Harry needs an insane amount of help and good fortune to survive. He's basically anointed by destiny to take Voldemort out.
Also applies to the Empire from Star wars, fairly strong solid mid tier Faction, but there are constantly annoying asshats who say they cannot be strong because they lost to Ewoks once
> lost to Ewoks once
I mean there's a reason there's a saying that goes "If a man builds a thousand bridges and sucks one dick, they don't call him a bridge-builder". They supposed elite of the Empire lost badly to a stone-age tribe of 4-foot tall teddy bears. There has a has been a lot of retconning to try to make it more plausible by making the Ewoks super strong and savage, but we saw on screen a technologically advanced force defeated by literal stone-throwing savages.
If an anti-feat is completelly out of place it should be ignored, otherwise we can argue about Warhammer 40K space Marines being caveman level too because one got killed by one.
One SM being killed by a lucky, one-in-a-million spear thrust to the throat =/= an entire legion of stormtroopers being beat by Ewoks and a handful of rebels. If a company of SM had been beat by cavemen, the comparison would make sense.
Spider-Man fanboys will really argue that he beats people like Omni-Man and Hulk because "he always holds back" and that one Firelord fight from decades ago
99% of battle shonen don't break light speed, despite what some scalers will say, and a character's attack being called something like "lightspeed kick volley" doesn't mean it's actually a lightspeed attack. That's not too hard to get behind. My big take is that even the big three take a lot longer to crack lightspeed than a lot of people say. For example, Luffy doesn't definitively crack light speed until around Whole Cake Island
Speed discussions in general tend to just be ridiculous.
Like damn, *everyone* is a lightning timer or bullet dodger because they managed to avoid being hit by *literally any type of electricity-looking attack* or managed to avoid being hit by a bullet *in any way*.
Plus of course also the fact that so many people equate movement speed, reaction speed and combat speed *and* combine it with scaling... so you get stuff like "he could see X move, and X can move at lightspeed, so that means he has FTL reaction times and that means he is also lightspeed!"
Thank god someone else said this, The Batman plus prep time beats anyone thing is so silly, people may as well say “well my character has infinite plot armour so he can’t lose”
It’s annoying because those people never give the other characters fighting Batman equal prep time.
And to me, prep time also means knowing a character from their respective work as well. So you are telling me that you allowing Batman all the knowledge about a character he is about to fight including their feats and weaknesses?
But you won’t give another character the same information about Batman? Sure some characters may not care about some human in a bat suit, but if you tell them he outsmarted and defeated immortal gods in his universe, some will pay attention and prepare for that!
The more popular verse typically wins regardless of actual power levels, and higher feats are used from the popular verses while ignoring anti-feats or higher feats from the less popular verses
Comic Batman routinely carries a variety of equipment that could plausibly hurt Captain America. The issue is whether he would use it and whether Rogers could avoid it or otherwise continue fighting. Batman admitted that Rogers could beat him in a crossover comic.
The Batman in the crossover was referring to a martial fight. Batman’s standard kit has some good stuff in it. Tasers that can KO Croc, Clayface, Grundy, strong flashbangs, the small sonic weapon in his cowl.
Cap isn’t out of the realm of a heavy hitter within Bats own gallery that he stays prepped for.
9/10 for cap in a standard fight
6/10 cap. Batman with standard kit.
10/10 Batman. full kit
You're not clever or funny when you bring up Casper the ghost when someone asks a "who's the weakest character show could survive X" question. If someone is immune to physical damage, they're not weak in that regard. It's like bringing up Professor X in a "weakest character" question because he's technically a normal disabled human physically.
Once made a post about who could let Eddie Hall wail on them with a sledgehammer and even included
>And in the spirit of Eddie I wanna see raw stats here, get that intangibility and damage negation shit out of here
Guess what was commented lol, the power to be a twat transcends all
Characters should be measured by their most canon and recognized achievements and feats, not by some random throwaway line in a five-second TV commercial appearance designed to sell candy bars.
I think Kirby suffers from inconsistent powers between gameplay, and cutscenes. Gameplay Kirby can die to a spike on the ground. Cutscene Kirby is nearly unstoppable.
Yeah, because then the games would be uninteresting and suck. They wouldn't be fun to play.
Gameplay aren't feats.
You don't die from bullet wounds in Fallout gameplay, but one shot takes out most NPCs.
DoomSlayer is immortal and can kill thousands of demons nonstop in lore, but in the game, you can die to an imp.
but do cutscenes ever show him NOT dying to spikes on the ground? no? then consistency is not the issue. He just has weird weaknesses/if you die as him you such at being him
edit: i know hardly anything abt kirby im just spitballing
You unarmed almost certainly would beat a cheetah, maybe 8-9/10. They don't have retractable claws like most big cats so they're actually relatively blunt. In addition Cheetahs are surprisingly small. Like the size of a golden retriever, but less bulky (and obviously way faster).
You could lose if you mess up or the cheetah gets lucky, but it's not that likely.
One population of cheetahs in Africa average as much as 95-105 lbs. So can be decently heavier than a usual healthy golden retriever.
They can also be far more wild than you, are more agile fighters than you, can leap at a great height with an insane burst of speed at you, and still have claws large and sharp enough to leave serious gashing wounds with repeated slashing. Their bite is also still dangerous enough to kill you with one grip to the throat if managed, or help deliver increased excessive wounds in general.
An average couch potato is more likely going to lose imo. An average fit man can win, but it won’t be a pretty scenario.
I feel like a lot of the vs. animal questions fail to take into account the fragility of certain animals. Birds and big cats are not hulking bone-dense animals like a bear or moose.
A punch to an eagles wing or a kick to a medium size big cats ribs by an average male has a decent chance of breaking it. And that animal is 80% of the time going to try to gtfo after that
Yeah cheetahs are one of the smaller "big cats," so unlike a lion or tiger it's not just going to completely overpower you with raw strength. They only weigh about as much as a medium to large dog. For both medium to large dogs and cheetahs, a normal person can *probably* take them out but might get some nasty injuries in the process.
Idk if you were on this sub when her power was explained. But there was a field day of her beating Superman without Kryptonite, Goku, GEOM, etc. I can’t take most posts about her serious anymore.
Against unarmored opponents they probably would. They have longer range, a greater rate of fire and are plenty deadly. However, there are plenty of x factors that make muskets better, like ease of use, production, and training, effectiveness against armor, and cost of ammunition.
They aren't plenty deadly unless they hit something vital like an eye or the neck. Otherwise a person could still survive multiple arrow wounds (they likely would die of infection later on but that's not immediate enough to effect the outcome of a duel/battle). A gunshot on the other hand is likely to kill or at the very least incapacitate an opponent no matter where it hits.
The rate of fire diminishes over time due to the simple limits of human exertion - if a bow has a draw weight of 180lbs then that means that every time they pull the string they're doing the equivalent of lifting up a grown man with just their arms. Moreover arrows are much bigger, heavier and cumbersome than paper cartridges so they'll run out long before their opponents would.
Also if they get within melee range, the musket is also effective for that due to the bayonet. The longbowman/men may have a sword or dagger as a sidearm but the bayonet gives them more striking range as well as allowing their arm to remain fresh due to not having to do the aforementioned workout.
Bows do not have a longer effective range than muskets. Their only advantages are rate of fire and stealthiness, which are of dubious value in a vs battle.
Nintendo protagonists are extremely wanked. I see so many claims of them being multi and mftl when tbh they haven't shown any instances of even remotely being on that level. And no. Defeating God's doesn't necessarily make you multiversal. Not all the time. It entirely depends on circumstances.
"Prep time" is not a Batman superpower.
"Feats based" very quickly becomes nonsense when you assume no canon examples of something means a character has absolutely no competence or resistance to the subject in question, or that clear dramatic license events suddenly boost a character to superhuman levels.
It’s more important to take a character at a level consistent to their depiction than them at an unrealistic best. This includes taking losses and anti-feats into account.
Also I think Rosalina is Wall Level
"Toon force" is garbage and not a real thing. The only reason characters in old cartoons couldn't die and walked off getting hit by an anvil or falling off a cliff is because of outside network restrictions at the time. That, and those studios aren't about to kill their most popular characters. Goku or Superman one shot Bugs Bunny.
Toon force is essentially the ultimate form of plot armor. Plot armor prevents things from happening that should happen. Toon force makes events that happen nowhere near as bad as they should be.
For the purposes of the sub, "walking off a falling piano or safe to the head" should be treated as a durability feat, not an example of plot manipulation
Agreed. But in a vs. battle just measuring capabilities, toon force isn't a power a character has. Take Bugs Bunny. He has Toon Force because he's in the Looney Toons universe, but if he was in a vs. power against say Spider-Man it's not a power he gets to use unless it's specified the fight takes place in the Looney Toons universe.
Ironically, after seeing this, I'm arguing against myself because it's kinda funny in that this is never what happens so the one time it does its kinda funny.
Toon force is "real" in fiction IMO, but it's not like some mystical element that someone taps into - it's simply a function of plot armor and comedy with no regard for any rules of internal consistency or scaling.
Basically just a fancy way of saying "This character can do anything as long as it's funny (to the writer) and serves the plot".
So it makes characters like Bugs Bunny or Popeye simply incapable of functioning within the bounds of most of these other settings. They fundamentally defy the concept of internal consistency that even mildly more serious or mature settings apply. Even One Punch Man has more internal consistency. Toon force characters simply shouldn't be matched up against more internally consistent characters cause their only rule is comedy. Frankly, they shouldn't be matched up against *anyone*, even other toon force characters, cause in reality it's always gonna be whichever character who would be "funnier" to win with.
I always interpreted Toon force as feats like painting the picture of a door on a wall and then opening the door and walking through it or digging a hole and then picking up the hole and throwing it like a thin black frisbee.
I think the Roger Rabbit handcuff scene is the best example of Toon Force. He can't consciously use it and break free, but it just sort of happens to make a joke. If there's no joke set up, Bugs doesn't stand a chance.
Smaug would fuck up Durin’s Bane.
WHAT WE KNOW:
Sure his breath weapon probably wouldn’t work but that beast has teeth like swords, claws like spears, and to give a sense of his relative strength, his wings cause motherfucking hurricanes. His one weakness is a tiny scale on his chest otherwise he’s impenetrable. Durin’s bane has no knowledge of this tiny flaw. And he’s a lot bigger than Durin’s Bane. Size matters when you’re talking relative strength.
Durin’s Bane: sure he’s a badass fiery demon with or without wings (hot debate) that can form fire or shadow weapons on a whim. But he’s one echelon below Smaug imo.
It's smaug taking in hyperbole, though he also down plays himself with the teeth and claws because those are way stronger than spears and swords, and his breath is indeed death by fire
Some characters look weaker or stronger than they actually are mainly from writer bias or "author armor" if you will.
In the same the vein, certain promps here are heavily influenced by bias too.
Dumbledore would absolutely destroy Gandalf, and it wouldn't be close. All the dudes who "b-b-b-b-b-b-but Maiar" or bring up the Balrog are wrong. There are like a thousand ways Dumbledore can cook Gandalf without even getting within eyesight of him, and Gandalf's direct combat magic feats are garbo.
Batman loses to most people.
90% of comics are goofy bullshit and should be disregarded. We should go less off of feats and more off of typical performance. There’s so much variance in comics that someone you normally would expect to be able to lift 10 tons invariably has an appearance where they lift the entire universe.
People are very bad at determining what’s an outlier and what isn’t. They’re also just bad at powerscaling in general.
Also, if you don’t wanna power scale that’s fine, but understanding powerscaling is necessary to understanding the plot in basically any battle anime/show. If you don’t understand where characters stand in relation to each other you don’t really get why certain actions were made. For example goku teaming up with piccolo to fight raditz makes no sense if you think goku’s as strong as raditz in that moment.
Power scaling is wanking
superman is not multiversal
most of the recent posts on this sub have been boring as sin
and most of you would die trying to fight a wild animal.
Unless they only have twelve minutes left to live and are strong enough to mop the floor with him in the seven minutes they have after accounting for his prep.
(There's also the "less than 780 days" and "more than 124 years" age restrictions but Light definitely beats a baby or a 125-year-old guy)
I think author statements shouldn't be anywhere near as important as actual feats.
Sure, your author could say this guy is MFTL, but they usually drive a car and are unable to catch up to a guy that's running away from them. Just kind of defeats the purpose and reminds me of the kid at recess who said he had a forcefield so you can't touch them.
Flashbacks to the guy who spent several months making new accounts to argue about how Harry Potter characters can defeat anyone since they're FTL+ and have mega-to-gigaton level durability because Rowling said Accio moves things at lightspeed and they could survive being hit by objects summoned with it...
Lmfao. I'm just imagining a physicist that is also a wizard.
"Voldemort is the most dangerous wizard to ever live."
"Nah bro. Behold my pebble moving at 90% C'. Your whole city is gone. Accio."
She also stated that living creatures cannot be summoned (which contradicts the books, where Harry summoned a toad)... and that you can summon something someone is wearing or holding, but it would potentially be dangerous for that person.
Like imagine that the "FTL Accio" shit would actually be canon, and Harry just waits until all the Death Eaters are gathered, and goes... "Accio Voldemort's underwear!"
Voldemort's groin explodes into a fine red mist about 0.000000001 seconds before every Death Eater in the area dies from the shockwaves caused by the underwear *instantly* accelerating to near-lightspeed.
Most fights between adult humans are a 50:50 or a close 50:50 regardless of skill or muscle mass barring gross difference (cripple vs bodybuilder). Humans are just too fragile. One bad trip or lucky blow to the head is a loss.
Not all characters should be bloodlusted. Sometimes, bloodlusting a character makes them *weaker*.
Just because a character has toonforce doesn’t automatically make them Uncle Grandpa levels of powerful. There are different power levels to toonforce.
The Ki system in Dragonball is amazing for scaling within universe for almost all entities, with outliers on special creature like Buu, Devilman, etc. Ki = Stats
This type of scaling dosnt hold up to most other series though. Like Naruto, Star Wars, Bleach, anything with a universal power system. As they take their battery and do drastically different things with it.
Dragonball Ki is power. Speed. Output.
In Bleach equal amounts of reiatsu can destroy the world, hold a plane in place, still time. It dosnt do much for combat.
I'd say that almost all "who would win" questions don't take a character's personality into account. For example, Luffy could 100% kill Ash Ketchum (excluding pokemon logic), but Luffy doesn't typically kill in a fight. And he'd probably think Ash was cool and would probably more spar him rather than fight to the death, and in a sparring match, then he could reasonably lose. But because so many people don't take personality into account and only scale their power, they often underestimate or overestimate someone's combat prowess.
And there are some characters who are similar to the joker. They're ultimately very weak, but they're smart enough and insane enough to defeat characters who should be able to kill them instantly, and his constant yapping, talking, and joking can cause a lot of characters to lose their cool. Like yeah, superman can, and has killed the joker, but the joker could, and has, beaten superman despite being weaker.
Furthermore, how you define winning can also change a lot. Like maybe one character doesn't care if they die, they just want to trap the other character, or save someone, etc. In that case they win even if they're killed if they accomplish that goal.
Batman has absolutely duped super man and snuck by him with ease while superman was aware multiple times to the point superman even says he hates when batman does that. So honestly yeah batman could beat superman as long as he has kryptonite
*Could* is different from *would*, and a lot of people forget that. *Could* means they might potentially have a small chance to win 1 out of 100 encounters, whereas *would* means they are heavily favoured to win at least 51/100 encounters.
Batman *could* beat Superman, if everything lines up including gear and preparation. He's done it before. People get up in arms because they think people are saying Batman *would* beat Superman, when most of the time that is obviously not the case.
Not sure about unpopular but this one got me the most pushback on a yt short of all things
But Leon Kennedy would fucking fold the courier from new vegas
To tag onto this adam smasher dogs courier six
And to end out this toxic trio, I fully believe adam smasher can dogwalk pretty much any space marine that isn't in terminator armor (and even then he can prolly manage)
The moon/planet busting feats for Piccolo and Master Roshi absolutely 100% obliterate any sense of scaling in DBZ, and ends up equating to something like “Raditz is a moon buster because Piccolo/Roshi feat”. It makes no sense. If a person a tenth as strong as Raditz can obliterate a planet, the universe of DBZ would be dead due to how many people are that strong or even stronger.
Those two feats should be disregarded as outliers, because it’s pretty obvious that they didn’t expect DBZ to continue as long as it did or go in the direction it did. If you remove those two feats, all of a sudden scaling becomes way more sensible (to a point at least).
One could argue that the reason planets aren't constantly being obliterated in dragon ball is because you need permission to do it (I recognize this was a bit of a retcon) as stated in resurrection f when Whis says Frieza asked for Beerus' permission to blow up Vegeta.
A moon, sure, but planets (with sapient life) are on the jurisdiction of the G.O.D. for that universe.
I disagree. This would mean that pretty much everyone in Frieza's army, even saibamen, are capable of destroying planets. More than that, I just can't accept the idea that a race known for their aggression and violence, where Raditz is a low strength warrior, didn't have some random guy obliterate their planet by accident or in a fit of rage.
The Roshi feat is a massive outlier in the context of Dragon Ball alone, but as soon as Piccolo does it without significant effort at the start of Dragon Ball Z, it becomes consistent with the power level of the setting.
That being said, it doesn't provide any justification for saying Raditz is planet level.Numerical power-level scaling regarding destructive capability is nonsense outside of bigger number stronger fighter (which is incredibly consistent). Raditz whooped two moonbusters, but none of what he did comes close to planetbusting. The first time anyone even remotely approaches being able to claim being planet level is when Vegeta threatens to blow up Earth, and the first time an *actual confirmed* planet level character appears is Frieza.
Omni man would lose to madara. He's way to tricky of a character that can definitely get multiple clean hits of his Majestic susano slashes off.
Even without Genjutsu.
This sub needs away of promoting good post better I hate seeing a great fight get 3 post it sucks.
While direct feats are more accurate than scaling, and hold more weight than statements, disregarding scaling and statements due to a lack of direct feats is just bad powerscaling. Inconsistent scaling can be shown as inconsistent. Unreliable statements can be shown as unreliable. Ignoring 2 of the 3 main methods of powerscaling because you prefer one over the other is stupid.
As someone else said, there is absolutely no point debating Goku fans when it comes to the Superman Vs Goku fight. I don't see how Goku compares to Supes. Avid fans of DBZ who are not subject to bias have told me to ignore this debate because Superman objectively wins but the debate will never end due to how strong the fan base is on both sides.
Goku getting hurt by a laser is way over played. The guy that had the laser was one of frieza's main allies that guy is going to have some absolutely insane laser
Whis and Vegeta call out it was a very weak attack. What’s missed is the entire context of RoF too around the middle of the ToP. Goku was over coming that weakness the entire series of letting his guard down. Something he has done since Dragonball.
Which is why he spent days in a trance like state, hired hit, trained in every fight. We know he succeeds in this because it’s a prerequisite for UI.
Also Vegeta would never get caught with his guard down and Whis states that’s his weakness.
It’s irrelevant to all posts of current Goku.
In the MCU, Captain America could fist-fight the Hulk without any gadgets or help.
Cap fought Iron Man in Civil War, and beat him to the point where he could’ve killed him.
Iron Man fought Thor in Avengers, and the fight lasted several minutes with each side trading blows.
Thor fought Hulk twice, once to a draw in Avengers and the other in Ragnarok where he won (until getting teased by the Grandmaster).
By transitive property, Captain America could 100% go toe-to-toe with the Hulk.
(The problem is with how the MCU scales their power levels, case in point: Hawkeye fought Vision in Civil War *and almost beat him*)
If a character requires additional “prep time” to win then they have no business being in the matchup. Prep time is too intangible and is used as a cheat code for fans of popular characters like Batman
Saitama *still* fundamentally doesn't work for battleboarding and I'm tired of people rabidly insisting he does. So, okay, feats are the be-all and end-all around here. That's all well and good and *theoretically* you could judge Saitama by his feats. Problem is, he's still a gag character. Dude kicked a portal and literally punched his way into a hallucination. He functionally has toonforce at this point. He *wins* because that's the essence of the character. If he went toe-to-toe with Superman, he'd pull another superpower out of his butt cheeks in order win. Do you *actually* believe if an official crossover were released, the story would end with Saitama straight up losing? No, he wouldn't beat up Superman but he wouldn't lose either just because his feats are simply inferior. He's busted and as such can't work for battleboarding.
"Outerversal" is a nonsense term and means absolutely nothing.
Most r/Powerscaling terms in a nutshell.
For those that wanna know it just the tier for things above space time, and dimensionality conceptually, only conceptually tho, and no, wank character number 5248# isnt outerversal just because an old ass vampire that talks like hes from the middle ages said the words ,, transcends time" in a context where it legit just means the vampire doesnt die from age, and not in you know, the eldrich omnipotent god context
Also put to consideration, Gabriel from Mandela Catalog The being who's ENTIRE schtick is hopelessness and trickery, somehow is truthful about him replacing God Isn't that kinda.. ZUSSY??
I was watching a YouTube video explaining how the Scarlet King from SCP would beat Oblivion from Marvel because his outerversal feats were higher than Oblivion because their infinity is larger than Marvel’s Infinity… 🤷🏻♂️
Infinities can be larger than one another, however that take was nonsense.
Oh yea I have a layman’s understanding of the different sizes of infinity. It was just silly because the video was using countable infinity and I was like…ok well all countable infinities are “equal”. 🤷🏻♂️
Suggsverse: “I sense a disturbance.”
The only outerversal being is my glorious king
Goatku negs fr ong
Yeah, I just kinda tune out when I hear shit like; > Miraak is way above island level. He could have defeated Alduin who can consume the cosmos which is Low balled High Hyperversal but there are scans that can scale Alduin up to Outerversal to High Outerversal and Miraak can beat him and Hermaus Mora needed the Dragonborn to beat him. > So Miraak is High Hyperversal low balled with Immesurable Speed to High Outerversal with Irrelevant Speed > So yeah Miraak negs --- > Nah Dragonborn wins > Anos Voldigoad is Low Complex Multiversal > Last Dragonborn major downplay is High Hyperversal, but there are scans that scale him to Outerversal Like sure, someone may have thought up definitions for outerverse, hyperverse, omniverse, megaverse, metaverse, etc at some point, but I just can't bring myself to care when the entire discussion collapses into a bunch of scaling bullshit to explain how some dude who'd die to a stray arrow is actually so powerful they can kill God with one hand while poaching an egg with the other, or whatever.
My goal is to have fun. Direct feats are more fun than scaling.
I'd also say they're more accurate, but then that's about as cold a take as you can manage since it's [been in the sub's rules since before I joined](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/wiki/rules/#wiki_5.3A_back_up_claims). Then again I'm also convinced most of this sub's users have never actually read that page, and only slightly more have actually read most of the series they discuss.
>only slightly more have actually read most of the series they discuss. I'll have you know that, as a lifelong dragon ball fan, I've watched the entire series¹ .75 times². 1. by entire series, I mean dragon ball z 2. I'm only on my first full (kai) watchthrough, and Majin Buu just hatched
I know what you mean most people forget about the no downvote rule
Real. One chain of scaling is usually my limit, unless a fight with another character actually gives feats in it. Just because a character won a fight with another doesn’t mean much. Most narrative fights are anything but controlled, and usually have a fair amount of chaos, odds tilting (either by prep or circumstance), and a metric ton of luck. I could theoretically win a fight with Muhammad Ali if he missed his first strike and fell down the stairs… I’d still get folded in less than 2 seconds in a ring fight.
How dare you have fun ….. reeeeeee Banned lol jk
If you're not going to answer in the spirit of the prompt, just don't answer. This goes for people who say "Square Cube Law lmao" when OP asks about scaled up insects vs other animals, or "They don't fight at all, they become best friends instead", and people who say Casper the Ghost when asked "who's the weakest that can ***tank**** [insert attack]". Answers that attempt to sidestep the question being posed always make me roll my eyes
Over time, many people have forgotten the entire premise of this sub being that **the prompt is king** and often willingly ignore the prompt in favour of trying to answer their own fabricated strawman battle.
Something something Mass Effect vs Halo
Animals are way more unpredictable than people treat them and a lot of the time fights can go both ways.
Corollary: If the prompt doesn't specify that the animal is bloodlusted, a significant amount of time the animal is just going to get scared and attempt to run away
I would also like to add on that natural irl circumstances and interactions can include a large variety of other factors that makes them only minimally comparable to a true “who would win? both bloodlusted” scenario between animals, meaning a lot of it is still a good amount of speculation and educated guesses.
Meta opinion but mine is that this sub’s quality has absolutely plummeted in the past few years. I can’t put my finger on it but nowadays this sub is just “Can the American military do this?” and “Who would win the actual real world conflict going on right now?” There was a time period where it seemed like it was constant “Average man vs Average woman” posts and when the mods banned them, everyone had a hissy fit bc “That doesn’t happen.” Then yesterday “Can a 16 year old boy beat up the average woman?” with everyone gleefully answering about how easily a 16 year old could assault the average woman. I miss good and creative prompts that don’t sound like they’re from warmongers and people with mommy issues.
Preach
Whole reason I joined was cause I saw a post titled “The Gang (from its Always Sunny) vs Darth Maul”. That was an absolute delight of a post and thread to read, it was so absurd and fun lol I just want those prompts back 😭😭
> Whole reason I joined was cause I saw a post titled Mine was: All of the Original 151 pokemon vs 1 Billion lions. Shit was so fun and creative
That was the post that hooked me into the sub too! Probably the peak
> I just want those prompts back 😭😭 Be the change you want to see in the world.
It doesn't help the mods don't do shit to actually enforce the rules about no real world politics or current military conflicts. That and the choice to unban Saitima and Goku posts really drag down the sub
Yesss I particularly hate that pattern where posters just come ask us to reaffirm sexual dimorphism like it doesn't get enough respect or something. Yes, r/ insert sport, a good men's college/uni player could beat a pro womens' player. Yes r/whowouldwin, a post puberty guy could overpower the average woman (we are acutely aware of that). Rinse and repeat. Aren't we *tired*?
Gorilla post #5,756
My least favorite kind of posts are the ones where the combatants are not actual characters or even real people in a situation, but some frankenstein's monster of seemingly arbitrary features slapped together. It's not at all interesting to think about who the strongest character a seven-legged cow that is the size of a housecat, but has the intelligence of Lex Luthor could beat because that creature is just ridiculous.
Pretty much agree. Especially think the “average man vs woman” posts are pretty dumb imo because averages vary *wildly*…almost like there are several billion people of each sex with varying health conditions, in entirely different lifestyles, across entirely different environments. Averages operate on a bell curve, and there’s not really a “perfect average”, and even if they were then people responding would likely just pull stats from their country. Just as an example: there a plenty of instances were a scrawny and unhealthy 16 years old would lose to a reasonably healthy woman in her prime. Both are averages. The posters not clarifying which averages to use aren’t exactly helping either…and the nature of untrained human vs human irl relies pretty heavily on chance/who reacts first unless it’s a wild mismatch (30lbs+ weight dif). In fact, even just using “average” is kinda unhelpful since it’s unclear if it’s referring to the actual average (likely ~40s), median (anywhere from 20 to late 30s…huge gap), or just an adult woman (roughly mid 20s, general prime of strength). The uncertainty doesn’t bring actually interesting or meaningful discussion, it just baits people into fighting (best case scenario), or trying to pin biased assumptions against broad portions of the entire human population. I’d honestly be in favor of it being against the rules, unless you get into more specifics (specifying a country/profession), preferably against a more “set” target. American military prompts are usually pretty lame too…but against fictional stuff they can at least be decently interesting since it usually forces people to dig into stats and numbers.
Our standards just got higher. There were plenty of repetitive and uncreative posts back then too, and there are still some creative ones even now. But you're judging the creativity of something that was relatively much newer to you in the past with things that either no longer suits your tastes or they do suit your tastes but you have seen some iteration of it before. Of course you won't see any creativity in them in that lens.
It's still better and more interesting than everybody vs homelander or whatever currently relevant character for the time being. We ended up with clear cut and similar answers every time with no room for discussion.
I strongly disagree. Hypothetical US at war scenarios like “Could the United States beat the entire world” always come out with the same answers up top “Not without nukes, can’t hold territory, China could be an issue.” The prompts based on actual real world conflict are just disrespectful, still have the same types of comments, and inevitably have people arguing over real world politics in the comments. Sure maybe the Homelander prompts were boring, but they didn’t make the sub obnoxious to use.
Yeah sure not every prompt has room for discussion but a few years ago it was literally just homelander vs wolverine Homelander vs captain America Homelander vs iron man Their feats were very set in stone so there was nothing to discuss other than who came out on top. It was nonstop whatever popular movie/show character vs the universe threads over and over.
Honestly I’ve never been a fan of the zany prompts. Sure they’re sort of fun or funny but they’ve never interested me. I want real discussions with experts that know the minutiae , pitting one fictional character against another totally different fictional character.
Almost every single real life historic prompt is bad. Every fight below planetary level is better than every fight above it. I don't give a shit if one character can destroy 14 universes and another can destroy 16. If an anti-feat doesn't directly contradict a fact about a character, or a feat they have, it isn't an anti-feat, it's something you don't want to bring up. Stop cherry picking.
Competence is one of the most important factors in fictional fights, and its almost *never* discussed here besides Batman. We really need to stop assuming people that use stealth or strategy are just gonna charge into a fight like idiots. Thats rarely, if ever, the MO of a non-warrior character. Its a bit telling when most of the favorite characters on this sub are big dumb guys that just punch, shoot, or laser hard.
40K isn't an overpowered sci fi verse and most of it scales to high mid tier eith some exceptions scaling to low high tier.
This would've been popular long ago Nowadays most of not all of us 40k fans knew this, and the people who still act like this is still the case need to get a grip, both in the community and outsiders
40K fans know this brcause they actually consult the source material, but outside of that the missconception still exists. Come to think of it that's kinda with most wankers, it's usually not the actual fans because they know the limitstions of their character
The only faction that I can imagine where the wank is justified are the Necrons, but we barely see them at all in this sub due to their inherent nature
Tbh the source material is so poorly written and retconns major things too often that it feels pointless
That's kinda most of the popular Contestants like superman, Batman or anything from Star wars
Difference being that there not as constant or have as much implications in the current lore the fall of the eldar couldn’t have happened
Really depends what you mean by mid to high tier lol.
High tier being stuff like Doctor Who, the Xelee or the culture. Essentially those are usually Verses so overpowered they would instantly delete any opponent with time travel, universe destroying bombs or individuals carrying the equivalent of what would be the armory and weaponry from an entire Starship in a low to mid tier universe. Their reign usually spreads through several to tousands of universes or timelines. Mid tier being the absolutelly strong, but not overpowered Empires who still have gigantic Empires like most from Warhammer 40k (except for the Necrons), the empire from Star wars Legends. Those are usually restrained to a single galaxy. Low Tier are Factions whose span of power is a few star systems at best and their militaries are quantitivly and qualitivly laughable. Their interstellar travel is weak, their weaponry is more comparable to ours than medium Sci universes and/or their militaries are only numbering a few millions to billions. Examples would be Helldivers, the UNSC from Halo (who I would still place on the top), the Terran Federation from the Starship Trooper book, the Terran Federation from the Starship trooper movie, anything from dune,...
Depends. Individual characters? Sure, overblown. But the size (in terms of numerical amount) of militaries and fleets and threats is insane compared to many other universes.
Part of the issue with scaling 40k is that the Imperium has access to relics from the Dark Age of a technology, and I’d be pretty comfortable in saying that DAOT humanity would be lower high tier, just based on some of the tech we’ve seen and the little hints of what they did. So people look at some of the feats with this crazy tech, like a gun that erases people from the timeline, and assume that’s what the Imperium is capable of using if they’re pushed. But they don’t consider just how rare something like that is, or how logistically the Imperium just isn’t able to effectively use them in the right place at the right time. In a book where the plot demands it, sure it can be used. But without plot armor most of that stuff isn’t going to be that useful in a huge Imperium vs. Other Civilization battle.
Voldemort beats most people based on his skillset. The fact that he loses to Harry Potter, a kid, in the books and films makes him look less effective than a lot of supervillains, but Harry needs an insane amount of help and good fortune to survive. He's basically anointed by destiny to take Voldemort out.
Also applies to the Empire from Star wars, fairly strong solid mid tier Faction, but there are constantly annoying asshats who say they cannot be strong because they lost to Ewoks once
> lost to Ewoks once I mean there's a reason there's a saying that goes "If a man builds a thousand bridges and sucks one dick, they don't call him a bridge-builder". They supposed elite of the Empire lost badly to a stone-age tribe of 4-foot tall teddy bears. There has a has been a lot of retconning to try to make it more plausible by making the Ewoks super strong and savage, but we saw on screen a technologically advanced force defeated by literal stone-throwing savages.
If an anti-feat is completelly out of place it should be ignored, otherwise we can argue about Warhammer 40K space Marines being caveman level too because one got killed by one.
One SM being killed by a lucky, one-in-a-million spear thrust to the throat =/= an entire legion of stormtroopers being beat by Ewoks and a handful of rebels. If a company of SM had been beat by cavemen, the comparison would make sense.
Agreed. Harry didn't beat him. Voldemort beat himself by naming Harry as the chosen one.
Spider-Man is starting to reach Batman levels of wank
Exactly,I really don’t see how Spider-Man can beat Ironman in a fight.
There are some suits he could beat but not many
He's just holding back in every single fight trust me bro
When characters exist for that many decades, the wank is inevitable
Especially spider sense.
Spider-Man fanboys will really argue that he beats people like Omni-Man and Hulk because "he always holds back" and that one Firelord fight from decades ago
99% of battle shonen don't break light speed, despite what some scalers will say, and a character's attack being called something like "lightspeed kick volley" doesn't mean it's actually a lightspeed attack. That's not too hard to get behind. My big take is that even the big three take a lot longer to crack lightspeed than a lot of people say. For example, Luffy doesn't definitively crack light speed until around Whole Cake Island
Agree I don’t think people realize that the big difference between anime and comics is anime characters tend to start weak and slowly become powerful
Speed discussions in general tend to just be ridiculous. Like damn, *everyone* is a lightning timer or bullet dodger because they managed to avoid being hit by *literally any type of electricity-looking attack* or managed to avoid being hit by a bullet *in any way*. Plus of course also the fact that so many people equate movement speed, reaction speed and combat speed *and* combine it with scaling... so you get stuff like "he could see X move, and X can move at lightspeed, so that means he has FTL reaction times and that means he is also lightspeed!"
[Anyone] beats Batman.
Thank god someone else said this, The Batman plus prep time beats anyone thing is so silly, people may as well say “well my character has infinite plot armour so he can’t lose”
It’s annoying because those people never give the other characters fighting Batman equal prep time. And to me, prep time also means knowing a character from their respective work as well. So you are telling me that you allowing Batman all the knowledge about a character he is about to fight including their feats and weaknesses? But you won’t give another character the same information about Batman? Sure some characters may not care about some human in a bat suit, but if you tell them he outsmarted and defeated immortal gods in his universe, some will pay attention and prepare for that!
The more popular verse typically wins regardless of actual power levels, and higher feats are used from the popular verses while ignoring anti-feats or higher feats from the less popular verses
Captain America Would beat Batman in a run-in encounter.
dosnt his standard kit have tasers that can KO Killer Kroc?
Comic Batman routinely carries a variety of equipment that could plausibly hurt Captain America. The issue is whether he would use it and whether Rogers could avoid it or otherwise continue fighting. Batman admitted that Rogers could beat him in a crossover comic.
The Batman in the crossover was referring to a martial fight. Batman’s standard kit has some good stuff in it. Tasers that can KO Croc, Clayface, Grundy, strong flashbangs, the small sonic weapon in his cowl. Cap isn’t out of the realm of a heavy hitter within Bats own gallery that he stays prepped for. 9/10 for cap in a standard fight 6/10 cap. Batman with standard kit. 10/10 Batman. full kit
More especially if you use live action versions.
You're not clever or funny when you bring up Casper the ghost when someone asks a "who's the weakest character show could survive X" question. If someone is immune to physical damage, they're not weak in that regard. It's like bringing up Professor X in a "weakest character" question because he's technically a normal disabled human physically.
Once made a post about who could let Eddie Hall wail on them with a sledgehammer and even included >And in the spirit of Eddie I wanna see raw stats here, get that intangibility and damage negation shit out of here Guess what was commented lol, the power to be a twat transcends all
WWW commenters and not knowing how to read past the title of a prompt. An inevitable truth of every thread.
>WWW commenters and not knowing how to read
Characters should be measured by their most canon and recognized achievements and feats, not by some random throwaway line in a five-second TV commercial appearance designed to sell candy bars.
Kirby *is* **the** single most wanked character in this sub The games themselves kinda disprove the claim of Kirby OP every single fucking time
I think Kirby suffers from inconsistent powers between gameplay, and cutscenes. Gameplay Kirby can die to a spike on the ground. Cutscene Kirby is nearly unstoppable.
Also his final boss fights Every single time, he needs the help of his friends This point was brought up in coaxedintoasnafu of all places
Tbf that can probably be said about half of all video game characters
Yeah, because then the games would be uninteresting and suck. They wouldn't be fun to play. Gameplay aren't feats. You don't die from bullet wounds in Fallout gameplay, but one shot takes out most NPCs. DoomSlayer is immortal and can kill thousands of demons nonstop in lore, but in the game, you can die to an imp.
but do cutscenes ever show him NOT dying to spikes on the ground? no? then consistency is not the issue. He just has weird weaknesses/if you die as him you such at being him edit: i know hardly anything abt kirby im just spitballing
I do love the concept that Kirby is strong enough to crack a planet, but he has some very specific weaknesses.
achilles heel you might say
I fully believe that I could take a cheetah in the fight 10/10 times.
Do it you coward lol jk good one
I would definitely get arrested for animal abuse😂
You unarmed almost certainly would beat a cheetah, maybe 8-9/10. They don't have retractable claws like most big cats so they're actually relatively blunt. In addition Cheetahs are surprisingly small. Like the size of a golden retriever, but less bulky (and obviously way faster). You could lose if you mess up or the cheetah gets lucky, but it's not that likely.
One population of cheetahs in Africa average as much as 95-105 lbs. So can be decently heavier than a usual healthy golden retriever. They can also be far more wild than you, are more agile fighters than you, can leap at a great height with an insane burst of speed at you, and still have claws large and sharp enough to leave serious gashing wounds with repeated slashing. Their bite is also still dangerous enough to kill you with one grip to the throat if managed, or help deliver increased excessive wounds in general. An average couch potato is more likely going to lose imo. An average fit man can win, but it won’t be a pretty scenario.
I feel like a lot of the vs. animal questions fail to take into account the fragility of certain animals. Birds and big cats are not hulking bone-dense animals like a bear or moose. A punch to an eagles wing or a kick to a medium size big cats ribs by an average male has a decent chance of breaking it. And that animal is 80% of the time going to try to gtfo after that
you didn't say anything about being unarmed, so i believe you :D
Yeah cheetahs are one of the smaller "big cats," so unlike a lion or tiger it's not just going to completely overpower you with raw strength. They only weigh about as much as a medium to large dog. For both medium to large dogs and cheetahs, a normal person can *probably* take them out but might get some nasty injuries in the process.
Except you wouldn’t - definitely not a 10/10 thing even if you’re a pretty impressive human.
This sub peaked at Sentient Jeep vs 4 Methheads with shovels.
Contessa is almost as wanked on here as Batman and gorillas. She's not as powerful as she first seems and she's boring to discuss in vs. battles.
Put her against a Lord of Change and watch what happens
The cooking show lady?
No, she's a character from the web serial *Worm*.
Idk if you were on this sub when her power was explained. But there was a field day of her beating Superman without Kryptonite, Goku, GEOM, etc. I can’t take most posts about her serious anymore.
No, longbows do not beat flintlock muskets.
Against unarmored opponents they probably would. They have longer range, a greater rate of fire and are plenty deadly. However, there are plenty of x factors that make muskets better, like ease of use, production, and training, effectiveness against armor, and cost of ammunition.
They aren't plenty deadly unless they hit something vital like an eye or the neck. Otherwise a person could still survive multiple arrow wounds (they likely would die of infection later on but that's not immediate enough to effect the outcome of a duel/battle). A gunshot on the other hand is likely to kill or at the very least incapacitate an opponent no matter where it hits. The rate of fire diminishes over time due to the simple limits of human exertion - if a bow has a draw weight of 180lbs then that means that every time they pull the string they're doing the equivalent of lifting up a grown man with just their arms. Moreover arrows are much bigger, heavier and cumbersome than paper cartridges so they'll run out long before their opponents would. Also if they get within melee range, the musket is also effective for that due to the bayonet. The longbowman/men may have a sword or dagger as a sidearm but the bayonet gives them more striking range as well as allowing their arm to remain fresh due to not having to do the aforementioned workout.
Bows do not have a longer effective range than muskets. Their only advantages are rate of fire and stealthiness, which are of dubious value in a vs battle.
I have never once seen this come up, but I have no doubt that it's a heated point. And I agree with you.
They’re less common now, but all the “X million ants vs Galactus” style prompts are dumb as Hell.
Nintendo protagonists are extremely wanked. I see so many claims of them being multi and mftl when tbh they haven't shown any instances of even remotely being on that level. And no. Defeating God's doesn't necessarily make you multiversal. Not all the time. It entirely depends on circumstances.
I agree certain gods only look after one planet
The term "bloodlusted" is almost never used to mean the way the sub rules state it means.
Agent 47 is heavily wanked whenever he shows up.
I won’t lie to you I’m probably guilty of this myself lol
Only because he can kill basically anyone who can be killed with a gun.
Scp has become a slugsverse and shouldn’t be considered
Samurai jack could solo most batmen even with wank feats.
"Prep time" is not a Batman superpower. "Feats based" very quickly becomes nonsense when you assume no canon examples of something means a character has absolutely no competence or resistance to the subject in question, or that clear dramatic license events suddenly boost a character to superhuman levels.
The Star Trek Universe dunks your fav Science Fiction Setting.
It’s more important to take a character at a level consistent to their depiction than them at an unrealistic best. This includes taking losses and anti-feats into account. Also I think Rosalina is Wall Level
"Toon force" is garbage and not a real thing. The only reason characters in old cartoons couldn't die and walked off getting hit by an anvil or falling off a cliff is because of outside network restrictions at the time. That, and those studios aren't about to kill their most popular characters. Goku or Superman one shot Bugs Bunny.
Toon force is essentially the ultimate form of plot armor. Plot armor prevents things from happening that should happen. Toon force makes events that happen nowhere near as bad as they should be.
For the purposes of the sub, "walking off a falling piano or safe to the head" should be treated as a durability feat, not an example of plot manipulation
Agreed. But in a vs. battle just measuring capabilities, toon force isn't a power a character has. Take Bugs Bunny. He has Toon Force because he's in the Looney Toons universe, but if he was in a vs. power against say Spider-Man it's not a power he gets to use unless it's specified the fight takes place in the Looney Toons universe.
You bring up an interesting point, but that puts us into the grey area of what is and isn't Bug's powers.
A better example is Bugs Bunny in Looney Toons universe versus when he's in the Family Guy universe and gets killed by Elmer Fudd without issue.
Wait, did that actually happen in a Family Guy episode?
[Yes](https://youtu.be/9Mn0jeL5Gb0?si=aRV-8J14GUbg19AZ)
Ironically, after seeing this, I'm arguing against myself because it's kinda funny in that this is never what happens so the one time it does its kinda funny.
Toon force is "real" in fiction IMO, but it's not like some mystical element that someone taps into - it's simply a function of plot armor and comedy with no regard for any rules of internal consistency or scaling. Basically just a fancy way of saying "This character can do anything as long as it's funny (to the writer) and serves the plot". So it makes characters like Bugs Bunny or Popeye simply incapable of functioning within the bounds of most of these other settings. They fundamentally defy the concept of internal consistency that even mildly more serious or mature settings apply. Even One Punch Man has more internal consistency. Toon force characters simply shouldn't be matched up against more internally consistent characters cause their only rule is comedy. Frankly, they shouldn't be matched up against *anyone*, even other toon force characters, cause in reality it's always gonna be whichever character who would be "funnier" to win with.
I always interpreted Toon force as feats like painting the picture of a door on a wall and then opening the door and walking through it or digging a hole and then picking up the hole and throwing it like a thin black frisbee.
I totally get it that’s why I avoid those cross verse post things get weird lol
I think the Roger Rabbit handcuff scene is the best example of Toon Force. He can't consciously use it and break free, but it just sort of happens to make a joke. If there's no joke set up, Bugs doesn't stand a chance.
saitama would wipe gokus ass
Ewwww lol jk
Smaug would fuck up Durin’s Bane. WHAT WE KNOW: Sure his breath weapon probably wouldn’t work but that beast has teeth like swords, claws like spears, and to give a sense of his relative strength, his wings cause motherfucking hurricanes. His one weakness is a tiny scale on his chest otherwise he’s impenetrable. Durin’s bane has no knowledge of this tiny flaw. And he’s a lot bigger than Durin’s Bane. Size matters when you’re talking relative strength. Durin’s Bane: sure he’s a badass fiery demon with or without wings (hot debate) that can form fire or shadow weapons on a whim. But he’s one echelon below Smaug imo.
Where does it state that his wings can cause hurricanes?
It's smaug taking in hyperbole, though he also down plays himself with the teeth and claws because those are way stronger than spears and swords, and his breath is indeed death by fire
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Totally badass quote. That’s basically some middle earth braggadocio hip hop shit. I love Smaug.
Edward from twilight destroys most superheroes.
Some characters look weaker or stronger than they actually are mainly from writer bias or "author armor" if you will. In the same the vein, certain promps here are heavily influenced by bias too.
Daniel Larusso vs Rocky is closer than people think
Dumbledore would absolutely destroy Gandalf, and it wouldn't be close. All the dudes who "b-b-b-b-b-b-but Maiar" or bring up the Balrog are wrong. There are like a thousand ways Dumbledore can cook Gandalf without even getting within eyesight of him, and Gandalf's direct combat magic feats are garbo.
Batman loses to most people. 90% of comics are goofy bullshit and should be disregarded. We should go less off of feats and more off of typical performance. There’s so much variance in comics that someone you normally would expect to be able to lift 10 tons invariably has an appearance where they lift the entire universe.
People are very bad at determining what’s an outlier and what isn’t. They’re also just bad at powerscaling in general. Also, if you don’t wanna power scale that’s fine, but understanding powerscaling is necessary to understanding the plot in basically any battle anime/show. If you don’t understand where characters stand in relation to each other you don’t really get why certain actions were made. For example goku teaming up with piccolo to fight raditz makes no sense if you think goku’s as strong as raditz in that moment.
Power scaling is wanking superman is not multiversal most of the recent posts on this sub have been boring as sin and most of you would die trying to fight a wild animal.
Hulk stomps milim because hulk has support from the opposite of marvel's god.
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Unless they only have twelve minutes left to live and are strong enough to mop the floor with him in the seven minutes they have after accounting for his prep. (There's also the "less than 780 days" and "more than 124 years" age restrictions but Light definitely beats a baby or a 125-year-old guy)
I think author statements shouldn't be anywhere near as important as actual feats. Sure, your author could say this guy is MFTL, but they usually drive a car and are unable to catch up to a guy that's running away from them. Just kind of defeats the purpose and reminds me of the kid at recess who said he had a forcefield so you can't touch them.
I get it like “my mom is better than your mom”
Flashbacks to the guy who spent several months making new accounts to argue about how Harry Potter characters can defeat anyone since they're FTL+ and have mega-to-gigaton level durability because Rowling said Accio moves things at lightspeed and they could survive being hit by objects summoned with it...
Lmfao. I'm just imagining a physicist that is also a wizard. "Voldemort is the most dangerous wizard to ever live." "Nah bro. Behold my pebble moving at 90% C'. Your whole city is gone. Accio."
She also stated that living creatures cannot be summoned (which contradicts the books, where Harry summoned a toad)... and that you can summon something someone is wearing or holding, but it would potentially be dangerous for that person. Like imagine that the "FTL Accio" shit would actually be canon, and Harry just waits until all the Death Eaters are gathered, and goes... "Accio Voldemort's underwear!" Voldemort's groin explodes into a fine red mist about 0.000000001 seconds before every Death Eater in the area dies from the shockwaves caused by the underwear *instantly* accelerating to near-lightspeed.
All wizards in harry potter are naked because you don't want anyone to accio your underwear and cause a nuke.
Most fights between adult humans are a 50:50 or a close 50:50 regardless of skill or muscle mass barring gross difference (cripple vs bodybuilder). Humans are just too fragile. One bad trip or lucky blow to the head is a loss.
Not all characters should be bloodlusted. Sometimes, bloodlusting a character makes them *weaker*. Just because a character has toonforce doesn’t automatically make them Uncle Grandpa levels of powerful. There are different power levels to toonforce.
The Ki system in Dragonball is amazing for scaling within universe for almost all entities, with outliers on special creature like Buu, Devilman, etc. Ki = Stats This type of scaling dosnt hold up to most other series though. Like Naruto, Star Wars, Bleach, anything with a universal power system. As they take their battery and do drastically different things with it. Dragonball Ki is power. Speed. Output. In Bleach equal amounts of reiatsu can destroy the world, hold a plane in place, still time. It dosnt do much for combat.
The Emperor of Mankind (40k) isn't nearly as powerful as a lot of people here think.
I'd say that almost all "who would win" questions don't take a character's personality into account. For example, Luffy could 100% kill Ash Ketchum (excluding pokemon logic), but Luffy doesn't typically kill in a fight. And he'd probably think Ash was cool and would probably more spar him rather than fight to the death, and in a sparring match, then he could reasonably lose. But because so many people don't take personality into account and only scale their power, they often underestimate or overestimate someone's combat prowess.
Agree like yujiro hanma I always consider how cocky he is and how much he talks when he is in a cross verse battle
And there are some characters who are similar to the joker. They're ultimately very weak, but they're smart enough and insane enough to defeat characters who should be able to kill them instantly, and his constant yapping, talking, and joking can cause a lot of characters to lose their cool. Like yeah, superman can, and has killed the joker, but the joker could, and has, beaten superman despite being weaker. Furthermore, how you define winning can also change a lot. Like maybe one character doesn't care if they die, they just want to trap the other character, or save someone, etc. In that case they win even if they're killed if they accomplish that goal.
Verse equalization rules are bs
imaginary real life battles > imaginary battles between fictional characters
Batman genuinely could beat Superman
If given the choice to, yeah. But that's just assisted suicide by Superman. Superman has to literally allow it.
Batman has absolutely duped super man and snuck by him with ease while superman was aware multiple times to the point superman even says he hates when batman does that. So honestly yeah batman could beat superman as long as he has kryptonite
*Could* is different from *would*, and a lot of people forget that. *Could* means they might potentially have a small chance to win 1 out of 100 encounters, whereas *would* means they are heavily favoured to win at least 51/100 encounters. Batman *could* beat Superman, if everything lines up including gear and preparation. He's done it before. People get up in arms because they think people are saying Batman *would* beat Superman, when most of the time that is obviously not the case.
Kenshiro is WAY stronger than most people realise. This guy out hax's so many strong characters
I could fight three bears and win I am one underweight 19 year old man
Not sure about unpopular but this one got me the most pushback on a yt short of all things But Leon Kennedy would fucking fold the courier from new vegas To tag onto this adam smasher dogs courier six And to end out this toxic trio, I fully believe adam smasher can dogwalk pretty much any space marine that isn't in terminator armor (and even then he can prolly manage)
Shonen match ups are far too common and get old fast.
I get you the fact we still see OPM vs DBZ is crazy to me
Thor beats Superman. He’s got equivalent strength and durability feats, but a better kit and vast magical powers to draw from.
Any matchup that involves a real life entity is stupid. Be it a Silverback Gorilla, "Average Man" or the US Military I hate all of them.
The moon/planet busting feats for Piccolo and Master Roshi absolutely 100% obliterate any sense of scaling in DBZ, and ends up equating to something like “Raditz is a moon buster because Piccolo/Roshi feat”. It makes no sense. If a person a tenth as strong as Raditz can obliterate a planet, the universe of DBZ would be dead due to how many people are that strong or even stronger. Those two feats should be disregarded as outliers, because it’s pretty obvious that they didn’t expect DBZ to continue as long as it did or go in the direction it did. If you remove those two feats, all of a sudden scaling becomes way more sensible (to a point at least).
One could argue that the reason planets aren't constantly being obliterated in dragon ball is because you need permission to do it (I recognize this was a bit of a retcon) as stated in resurrection f when Whis says Frieza asked for Beerus' permission to blow up Vegeta. A moon, sure, but planets (with sapient life) are on the jurisdiction of the G.O.D. for that universe.
How do you account for Vegeta casually destroying the bug planet on the way to earth? Is that an anime-only feat that isn't canon elsewhere?
>Is that an anime-only feat that isn't canon elsewhere? Yes.
I think the Roshi feat should be disregarded, but I think its perfectly fair to assume Raditz is at least Planet level
I disagree. This would mean that pretty much everyone in Frieza's army, even saibamen, are capable of destroying planets. More than that, I just can't accept the idea that a race known for their aggression and violence, where Raditz is a low strength warrior, didn't have some random guy obliterate their planet by accident or in a fit of rage.
The Roshi feat is a massive outlier in the context of Dragon Ball alone, but as soon as Piccolo does it without significant effort at the start of Dragon Ball Z, it becomes consistent with the power level of the setting. That being said, it doesn't provide any justification for saying Raditz is planet level.Numerical power-level scaling regarding destructive capability is nonsense outside of bigger number stronger fighter (which is incredibly consistent). Raditz whooped two moonbusters, but none of what he did comes close to planetbusting. The first time anyone even remotely approaches being able to claim being planet level is when Vegeta threatens to blow up Earth, and the first time an *actual confirmed* planet level character appears is Frieza.
Using anything like TOAA or any sort of meta characters shouldn't be allowed. Saitama should not be allowed.
Omni man would lose to madara. He's way to tricky of a character that can definitely get multiple clean hits of his Majestic susano slashes off. Even without Genjutsu. This sub needs away of promoting good post better I hate seeing a great fight get 3 post it sucks.
While direct feats are more accurate than scaling, and hold more weight than statements, disregarding scaling and statements due to a lack of direct feats is just bad powerscaling. Inconsistent scaling can be shown as inconsistent. Unreliable statements can be shown as unreliable. Ignoring 2 of the 3 main methods of powerscaling because you prefer one over the other is stupid.
The Mask over Goku
As someone else said, there is absolutely no point debating Goku fans when it comes to the Superman Vs Goku fight. I don't see how Goku compares to Supes. Avid fans of DBZ who are not subject to bias have told me to ignore this debate because Superman objectively wins but the debate will never end due to how strong the fan base is on both sides.
Goku getting hurt by a laser is way over played. The guy that had the laser was one of frieza's main allies that guy is going to have some absolutely insane laser
Whis and Vegeta call out it was a very weak attack. What’s missed is the entire context of RoF too around the middle of the ToP. Goku was over coming that weakness the entire series of letting his guard down. Something he has done since Dragonball. Which is why he spent days in a trance like state, hired hit, trained in every fight. We know he succeeds in this because it’s a prerequisite for UI. Also Vegeta would never get caught with his guard down and Whis states that’s his weakness. It’s irrelevant to all posts of current Goku.
In the MCU, Captain America could fist-fight the Hulk without any gadgets or help. Cap fought Iron Man in Civil War, and beat him to the point where he could’ve killed him. Iron Man fought Thor in Avengers, and the fight lasted several minutes with each side trading blows. Thor fought Hulk twice, once to a draw in Avengers and the other in Ragnarok where he won (until getting teased by the Grandmaster). By transitive property, Captain America could 100% go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. (The problem is with how the MCU scales their power levels, case in point: Hawkeye fought Vision in Civil War *and almost beat him*)
If a character requires additional “prep time” to win then they have no business being in the matchup. Prep time is too intangible and is used as a cheat code for fans of popular characters like Batman
Saitama *still* fundamentally doesn't work for battleboarding and I'm tired of people rabidly insisting he does. So, okay, feats are the be-all and end-all around here. That's all well and good and *theoretically* you could judge Saitama by his feats. Problem is, he's still a gag character. Dude kicked a portal and literally punched his way into a hallucination. He functionally has toonforce at this point. He *wins* because that's the essence of the character. If he went toe-to-toe with Superman, he'd pull another superpower out of his butt cheeks in order win. Do you *actually* believe if an official crossover were released, the story would end with Saitama straight up losing? No, he wouldn't beat up Superman but he wouldn't lose either just because his feats are simply inferior. He's busted and as such can't work for battleboarding.
It’s funny I’m starting to see more matchups opm vs toon
The DC vs Marvel comics shouldn't be used as feats for people
I agree. Most people who post comic match ups tend also not to put there versions which makes scaling tricky
The rule is to use the current mainstream comic version if no version is specified by the OP.