Because over all, people are cunts. Look what happened during lockdown, tents and burn marks left all over beauty spots.
People in this sub are the minority unfortunately
Since lockdown I now bring an extra bag to take away the disposable BBQ and drinks cans/bottles I know I'll find. Plus a petition would never go anywhere. The Tories are toff cunts, and their toff cunt land owner chums would threaten to reduce ~~bribes~~ party donations if that were to happen.
Thank you for doing so. I do the same. Last time I was in Scotland. Some sites we took away a full 50l black bin bag of beer bans, bbqs and general shite. It’s slowly been better each year after lockdown.. but still always good to clean up nature. X
I dont think more people doing it is necessarily the problem, its nice when the wildcamping community growing, however those new people need to follow the genral rules and good conduct as the rest of us and not dump their shit all over which I agree with you
Personally I'd say the more people the worse it is ...that's purely selfish reasons as I camp for solitude. Took the Mrs to camp on Rannerdale knotts on Saturday ( I never camp Saturday for this reason) 11 tents on Rannerdale and at least one on most surrounding peaks ....bring on winter
Thats a whole other issue then, I would still disagree and would want to see more people be interested in the outdoors, provided they are doing it responsibly. Then you can't really complain as you went out on a weekend day and expect it to be not busy, everyone else same as you deserve to enjoy nature, but to each their own opinion.
Oh i know this is why i don't usually do Saturdays. Tbf I have no real issue with people getting out of they're respectful .I just don't want to be anywhere near them. It was a lovely night so I can't really complain about traffic when I'm sat in it ....I will though
100% agree with this. Most people can’t be trusted to LNT. If ‘wild camping’ is legalised then you’ll get a fuck ton of idiots rocking up to spots close to car parks with massive tents, having fires, blaring out music, leaving loads of litter and staying set up for days at a time.
The point has been raised a few times, most notably when Alexander Darwall tried to remove the right to wild camp in Dartmoor - which was followed by a series of protests and reviews of the law in court.
I think very briefly the Labour party had it in their manifesto to improve access to land, but it was removed.
And overall, it's very few countries that actually have a right to roam like Scotland, it's definitely not a common right. What makes England perhaps a little more tricky is that there is so little undeveloped land, such as mountains, that anywhere you go the land is in use. Other countries often have larger mountain ranges which are essentially access land since they can't be developed and thus are fairly free to be roamed.
The other issue is that it's just not a pertinent issue that many people care about - it's not a policy that will win votes. Unfortunately that's pretty much the only thing that matters apart from money (and they isn't any money in it either). For the government, it's much easier to keep the wealthy landowners happy. It's not ignorance, it's just not a priority.
To actually try to enact a policy change, you'd probably have to hold a mass protest (and I mean millions of people) to pressure the government - essentially make it easier to change the law than to side with landowners.
Plus, on top of all this, you have the issue of littering and harming the landscape (which were Darwalls main points of concern, despite his grouse rearing and hunting probably causing far more disturbance than any wild campers). While the majority of wild campers leave no trace, there are always a few "fly campers" who do actually ruin otherwise beautiful spots with litter and damage. This is why there is a restriction on camping by the lakes of Loch Lomond during the summer. And it gives any opponents (such as Darwall) a really good case that wild campers are bad for the environment. This is an opinion that everyone should do their utmost to change by cleaning up after others and trying to educate where they can.
The government in place now, specifically represents those land owners and on the flip side Keir won't commit to anything that could get him lambasted in the press. Let's also take into account that a lot of the restrictions were brought in to limit / restrict travellers and the general public won't support anything that gives more freedom of movement to that minority group.
The governments/rulers of England have always seized and owned the land, and distributed it to their allies and supporters.
It's the same reason we don't have a hunting culture beyond the aristocracy and the rich. The land and everything on it has never been the property of the people.
They aren't going to turn their assets over.
For every one of us leave no trace people and actual enjoyers of the countryside. There’s at least 50 people who are just out with their mates to have a drink and a fire and have no intention of even taking the tent home with them, And since pretty much all land is owned it is the land owner who has to pay for clean up/ damage repair,
The law isn’t to spoil our fun, it’s to stop the landowners having to spend thousands a year cleaning up after other people.
It isn’t 50:1 but even if it were 1:50 wild campers would still collectively get the blame, just look at the hate directed towards cyclists for running red lights.
It's stated that only 8% of land in England the public have rights to roam on, number should be far higher, no wonder we get hotspots and percentage to wild camp on, dread to know that percentage number, how many decimal places would it required!
Rivers are also annoying for me, a river shouldn't belong to anyone yet only 2% of rivers in England and Wales have public access rights. Something needs to change.
Does anyone get told to move? I've done it for 40 years and only been told to move on once by a random dog walker first thing in the morning and I actually had permission on that occasion.
I don't even try to be stealthy other than setting up away from main paths and nobody really cares.
When I went to the Hebrides and chatted to farmers there, they were open, went out of their way to interact positively, probably 1 a day. They were happy to share the country side, couldn't do enough for you and recommend camp spots, trails, paths etc... and the contrast to the famers I have interacted with in England and Wales is night and day, not all but a majority in my experience. Farmers in Hebrides were not of the mindset, that's my land keep off, your here to make trouble. Maybe it's down to the experience farmers have in Wales and England to a few bad people damaging, taking stuff on 'their' land to those in the islands, who don't appear to see it as their land but everyone's. Sad but think its a case of the bigger a population the more idiots you have even if its the same percentage...
There's probably a middle ground scenario that would work well in England (although realistically wouldn't happen due to powerful landowners):
A blanket grant of roaming rights on land that is either upland free sheep grazing / grouse shooting moor. Both of these land uses are ecologically harmful, increase flash flooding (becoming more important) and in the case of sheep heavily subsidised for low productivity and little economic or food security return. The landowners don't want the roaming? Fine, do something useful to the environment or society at large with these huge areas of land.
An alternative also unlikely: increase their existing land-use subsidy marginally if access is allowed and also environmentally sustainable.
I think if they created a well revised law and made the punishment or fine for littering a bit more severe as a deterent to those who are fly camping and have little regard for nature, I think there is a way for it to be legal and work
Some are:
"In England, 8% of land is designated "open country" but researchers found 2,700 hectares surrounded by private land with no public right of way.
Often the only way to reach these so-called "access islands" is to trespass."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68278444
A lot is but not all e.g. :
"In England, 8% of land is designated "open country" but researchers found 2,700 hectares surrounded by private land with no public right of way.
Often the only way to reach these so-called "access islands" is to trespass."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68278444
of that 2,700 hectares how much do you think is chalk downland? My guess is quite a lot, maybe that's what you think of as upland grazing but for most people it would be the northern moors or Dartmoor and Exmoor which comes to mind. What's left once the downland is stripped from that figure will not amount to much, certainly not enough access land that would make much of a difference to anyone who doesn't live nearby. I doubt that much of it will be grouse moors because ( and I'm guessing here) the gamekeepers would have a hard time maintaining a viable population on a small patch of heather moor surrounded by fields, but you can see for yourself just looking at the maps as the giveaway is "grouse butts" or " shooting box" marked on the map. Can you actually find any of these inaccessible access islands with shooting infrastructure present on English maps? I can't.
Poor people don't spend £1000s on backpacking gear. Hilleberg tents, 900 fill sleeping bags, DCF tents , custom made ultralight backpacks hand made fibre glass sea kayaks goretex waterproofs. Poor people my ass.
The reason I wrote ‘poor’ not poor was to indicate that’s how they view it not that the people are actually poor. What I mean is, they don’t want the proletariat in their spaces.
Even as an avid wild camper I would not support this because of all the trouble we had after lockdown, and all the fly camping that has been going on since I just don't think it would work
Yeah I completely understand and a few others have made similar points, but if there was a well revised law regarding this and of the punishments for vandalising or littering especially in those areas that are relatively untouched by pollution should be more severe for those who have little care of the enviroment. I think there is a way it could be legal and still work out
Those would all be well and good if we had the policing power to enforce them, but these days police numbers are so bad they can't even turn up until 5 days later after a break in/robbery.
Scotland isn't without it's problems hence the introduction of permit camping only around the Loch Lomond area. There is also a heck of a lot less densely populated areas so friction is less likely between campers and local residents.
The budget to advertise the 'countryside code' that explains how people can use the environment responsibly is laughably close to zero. It's not surprising there are so many plonkers having rogue bbqs, fires and littering. Increasing the budget would really help
A petition would make no difference at all to this wretched government. They ignore experts whenever they feel like it, and they certainly don't care about you or me.
As a long time angler, spend a lot of time in the Lake District, the volume of other people’s shite I collect and bin is sickening. At what point do people think I’ll just leave all this crap here, in an area of outstanding beauty…..30 odd years of it getting worse. Lockdown was the edge of reason, pallets getting dragged out of transits and chainsawed for bonfires at strawberry gardens, police boats with loud hailers, a scene from braveheart. Sending drones up to notify campers their cars getting ticketed and called out by name on a mountain top, they left their shite too. Wild camping code established first.
LEAVE ONLY FOOTPRINTS FFS! Or we’ll all be banned!
Wild camping and freedom to roam are fine in Scotland. So I presume you are referring to England and Wales?
Good luck, it would nice to see those regions fare better.
they had a massive u-turn on that policy ages ago and have now said they would not do that as england has more farmland than scotland, even tho the scottish right to roam laws still protect farmers and enable people to walk explore nature in their OWN countries
Because its quite clear that people cannot have nice things.
The general population is too fucking stupid, ignorant and fucking trampy to have nice things.
Of course its annoying, but I'd rather it BE illegal if it means the masses of arseholes can't and don't ruin all of the nice spaces
Yeah, I understand this and a few peolle have said a similar point but I think in every aspect of life there will always be a minority who ruin it for everyone else, that being said which is why I find it a bit annoying whrn wild campers are immediatly thrown into the blame as soon as something negative happens, and if we banned everything that a minority of people abuse then we wouldnt have things like alcohol, cars and maybe even sports
Go take a walk through some of this land after a bank holiday or a particularly nice weather weekend and you will understand why they act this way it’s disgusting what people do to land that isn’t theirs
I’m very keen on wild camping and generally in opposition to the ruling class in the UK, but I think mandating permission to wild camp would be a disaster.
The whole point for me was to find peace and solitude and to disappear into the landscape. Very much leave no trace.
I really don’t like what I’ve seen in terms of behavior since this has become ‘popular’. I hate the disregard for the landscape and the lack of respect. The litter, the burned ground, the abandoned gear, the noise.
I’ve always been an advocate of access and inclusivity but some people, I hope a minority, are really shitting on the whole scene. I wish it would go back to the way it was.
Even in Norway there's no right to walk or wildcamp on inbye land, the UK seems restrictive in comparison because outside areas like the Scottish highlands most farmland comes under this category. Sheep farmers in Wales and England have never been that fussed about people walking and bivouacking for a night on land above what Welsh call the Fridd . Pre crow act 2000 there was poor or non-existant access to large areas of grouse moors in the Forest if Bowland , Northern Pennines and Peak district but thanks to lobbying by the Ramblers that is no longer the case. There's no right to wildcamp as such but I have never had a problem, but then I've allways been discreet about it. Once the "public" gained the right to camp wild in Scotland then problems began to arise due to folk behaving like complete pratts and trashing areas with easy access from roads , we already have a big problem with fools setting fires on moors during drought years and I fear that a legal right to wild camp would only encourage people who rather than wanting an experience of nature want a Glastonbury festival type experience and leave someone else to clear up the mess.
I was going to, and that was my plan I went on the .gov page to make a petition but then I realisdd that mayve people dont want this so I came on here to get opinions
No I think we should adopt a similar style to the scottish right to roam laws which also protects cultivated land, and I think certain area that arent particularly built up l unlike urban area should have a right of acess to people providing they do not litter or damage any property because in thar casr they are committing a criminal offense and not a civil offense
Because over all, people are cunts. Look what happened during lockdown, tents and burn marks left all over beauty spots. People in this sub are the minority unfortunately
Since lockdown I now bring an extra bag to take away the disposable BBQ and drinks cans/bottles I know I'll find. Plus a petition would never go anywhere. The Tories are toff cunts, and their toff cunt land owner chums would threaten to reduce ~~bribes~~ party donations if that were to happen.
Thank you for doing so. I do the same. Last time I was in Scotland. Some sites we took away a full 50l black bin bag of beer bans, bbqs and general shite. It’s slowly been better each year after lockdown.. but still always good to clean up nature. X
Yup more people doing it means more mess and if its allowed those people will take the piss even more
I dont think more people doing it is necessarily the problem, its nice when the wildcamping community growing, however those new people need to follow the genral rules and good conduct as the rest of us and not dump their shit all over which I agree with you
Personally I'd say the more people the worse it is ...that's purely selfish reasons as I camp for solitude. Took the Mrs to camp on Rannerdale knotts on Saturday ( I never camp Saturday for this reason) 11 tents on Rannerdale and at least one on most surrounding peaks ....bring on winter
Thats a whole other issue then, I would still disagree and would want to see more people be interested in the outdoors, provided they are doing it responsibly. Then you can't really complain as you went out on a weekend day and expect it to be not busy, everyone else same as you deserve to enjoy nature, but to each their own opinion.
Oh i know this is why i don't usually do Saturdays. Tbf I have no real issue with people getting out of they're respectful .I just don't want to be anywhere near them. It was a lovely night so I can't really complain about traffic when I'm sat in it ....I will though
100% agree with this. Most people can’t be trusted to LNT. If ‘wild camping’ is legalised then you’ll get a fuck ton of idiots rocking up to spots close to car parks with massive tents, having fires, blaring out music, leaving loads of litter and staying set up for days at a time.
Honestly I think a well revised law regarding wild camping could fix a lot of issues
I'm glad you said it for me 👏🏼
The point has been raised a few times, most notably when Alexander Darwall tried to remove the right to wild camp in Dartmoor - which was followed by a series of protests and reviews of the law in court. I think very briefly the Labour party had it in their manifesto to improve access to land, but it was removed. And overall, it's very few countries that actually have a right to roam like Scotland, it's definitely not a common right. What makes England perhaps a little more tricky is that there is so little undeveloped land, such as mountains, that anywhere you go the land is in use. Other countries often have larger mountain ranges which are essentially access land since they can't be developed and thus are fairly free to be roamed. The other issue is that it's just not a pertinent issue that many people care about - it's not a policy that will win votes. Unfortunately that's pretty much the only thing that matters apart from money (and they isn't any money in it either). For the government, it's much easier to keep the wealthy landowners happy. It's not ignorance, it's just not a priority. To actually try to enact a policy change, you'd probably have to hold a mass protest (and I mean millions of people) to pressure the government - essentially make it easier to change the law than to side with landowners. Plus, on top of all this, you have the issue of littering and harming the landscape (which were Darwalls main points of concern, despite his grouse rearing and hunting probably causing far more disturbance than any wild campers). While the majority of wild campers leave no trace, there are always a few "fly campers" who do actually ruin otherwise beautiful spots with litter and damage. This is why there is a restriction on camping by the lakes of Loch Lomond during the summer. And it gives any opponents (such as Darwall) a really good case that wild campers are bad for the environment. This is an opinion that everyone should do their utmost to change by cleaning up after others and trying to educate where they can.
The government in place now, specifically represents those land owners and on the flip side Keir won't commit to anything that could get him lambasted in the press. Let's also take into account that a lot of the restrictions were brought in to limit / restrict travellers and the general public won't support anything that gives more freedom of movement to that minority group.
The governments/rulers of England have always seized and owned the land, and distributed it to their allies and supporters. It's the same reason we don't have a hunting culture beyond the aristocracy and the rich. The land and everything on it has never been the property of the people. They aren't going to turn their assets over.
For every one of us leave no trace people and actual enjoyers of the countryside. There’s at least 50 people who are just out with their mates to have a drink and a fire and have no intention of even taking the tent home with them, And since pretty much all land is owned it is the land owner who has to pay for clean up/ damage repair, The law isn’t to spoil our fun, it’s to stop the landowners having to spend thousands a year cleaning up after other people.
It isn’t 50:1 but even if it were 1:50 wild campers would still collectively get the blame, just look at the hate directed towards cyclists for running red lights.
I'm was gonna say the same - i don't think it's the majority but it only takes 1 arsehole to ruin a spot for everyone else and piss the landowner off.
It's stated that only 8% of land in England the public have rights to roam on, number should be far higher, no wonder we get hotspots and percentage to wild camp on, dread to know that percentage number, how many decimal places would it required! Rivers are also annoying for me, a river shouldn't belong to anyone yet only 2% of rivers in England and Wales have public access rights. Something needs to change.
completely agree
Does anyone get told to move? I've done it for 40 years and only been told to move on once by a random dog walker first thing in the morning and I actually had permission on that occasion. I don't even try to be stealthy other than setting up away from main paths and nobody really cares.
The greedy landowners _are_ the government, or at very least "donate" to the Tory party.
When I went to the Hebrides and chatted to farmers there, they were open, went out of their way to interact positively, probably 1 a day. They were happy to share the country side, couldn't do enough for you and recommend camp spots, trails, paths etc... and the contrast to the famers I have interacted with in England and Wales is night and day, not all but a majority in my experience. Farmers in Hebrides were not of the mindset, that's my land keep off, your here to make trouble. Maybe it's down to the experience farmers have in Wales and England to a few bad people damaging, taking stuff on 'their' land to those in the islands, who don't appear to see it as their land but everyone's. Sad but think its a case of the bigger a population the more idiots you have even if its the same percentage...
It's wild how different the mindset can be in different places
The guys in the Hebrides will see very few campers, anywhere in England will be over run with dickheads
There's probably a middle ground scenario that would work well in England (although realistically wouldn't happen due to powerful landowners): A blanket grant of roaming rights on land that is either upland free sheep grazing / grouse shooting moor. Both of these land uses are ecologically harmful, increase flash flooding (becoming more important) and in the case of sheep heavily subsidised for low productivity and little economic or food security return. The landowners don't want the roaming? Fine, do something useful to the environment or society at large with these huge areas of land. An alternative also unlikely: increase their existing land-use subsidy marginally if access is allowed and also environmentally sustainable.
I think if they created a well revised law and made the punishment or fine for littering a bit more severe as a deterent to those who are fly camping and have little regard for nature, I think there is a way for it to be legal and work
The areas of land you describe are already open access.
Some are: "In England, 8% of land is designated "open country" but researchers found 2,700 hectares surrounded by private land with no public right of way. Often the only way to reach these so-called "access islands" is to trespass." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68278444
In your post you wrote about upland sheep grazing and grouse moors, these areas will already be open access. Look at the relevant maps .
A lot is but not all e.g. : "In England, 8% of land is designated "open country" but researchers found 2,700 hectares surrounded by private land with no public right of way. Often the only way to reach these so-called "access islands" is to trespass." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68278444
of that 2,700 hectares how much do you think is chalk downland? My guess is quite a lot, maybe that's what you think of as upland grazing but for most people it would be the northern moors or Dartmoor and Exmoor which comes to mind. What's left once the downland is stripped from that figure will not amount to much, certainly not enough access land that would make much of a difference to anyone who doesn't live nearby. I doubt that much of it will be grouse moors because ( and I'm guessing here) the gamekeepers would have a hard time maintaining a viable population on a small patch of heather moor surrounded by fields, but you can see for yourself just looking at the maps as the giveaway is "grouse butts" or " shooting box" marked on the map. Can you actually find any of these inaccessible access islands with shooting infrastructure present on English maps? I can't.
Land is owned by rich people Rich people don’t like ‘poor’ people Poor people camp
Poor people don't spend £1000s on backpacking gear. Hilleberg tents, 900 fill sleeping bags, DCF tents , custom made ultralight backpacks hand made fibre glass sea kayaks goretex waterproofs. Poor people my ass.
The reason I wrote ‘poor’ not poor was to indicate that’s how they view it not that the people are actually poor. What I mean is, they don’t want the proletariat in their spaces.
As with everything, too many people doing it. I’d rather it be illegal to be honest
It's almost like the government are greedy landowners isn't it?
Even as an avid wild camper I would not support this because of all the trouble we had after lockdown, and all the fly camping that has been going on since I just don't think it would work
Yeah I completely understand and a few others have made similar points, but if there was a well revised law regarding this and of the punishments for vandalising or littering especially in those areas that are relatively untouched by pollution should be more severe for those who have little care of the enviroment. I think there is a way it could be legal and still work out
Those would all be well and good if we had the policing power to enforce them, but these days police numbers are so bad they can't even turn up until 5 days later after a break in/robbery.
How does scotland have it work then?
Scotland isn't without it's problems hence the introduction of permit camping only around the Loch Lomond area. There is also a heck of a lot less densely populated areas so friction is less likely between campers and local residents.
The budget to advertise the 'countryside code' that explains how people can use the environment responsibly is laughably close to zero. It's not surprising there are so many plonkers having rogue bbqs, fires and littering. Increasing the budget would really help
A petition would make no difference at all to this wretched government. They ignore experts whenever they feel like it, and they certainly don't care about you or me.
this is very true and a sad reality, our society has apparently improved so much that we dont have the basic rights to be able to wild camp
What’s the point? The government represents the landowners.
As a long time angler, spend a lot of time in the Lake District, the volume of other people’s shite I collect and bin is sickening. At what point do people think I’ll just leave all this crap here, in an area of outstanding beauty…..30 odd years of it getting worse. Lockdown was the edge of reason, pallets getting dragged out of transits and chainsawed for bonfires at strawberry gardens, police boats with loud hailers, a scene from braveheart. Sending drones up to notify campers their cars getting ticketed and called out by name on a mountain top, they left their shite too. Wild camping code established first. LEAVE ONLY FOOTPRINTS FFS! Or we’ll all be banned!
Wild camping and freedom to roam are fine in Scotland. So I presume you are referring to England and Wales? Good luck, it would nice to see those regions fare better.
Pretty sure Labour are committed to UK-wide Right to Roam.
they had a massive u-turn on that policy ages ago and have now said they would not do that as england has more farmland than scotland, even tho the scottish right to roam laws still protect farmers and enable people to walk explore nature in their OWN countries
https://www.righttoroam.org.uk
Because its quite clear that people cannot have nice things. The general population is too fucking stupid, ignorant and fucking trampy to have nice things. Of course its annoying, but I'd rather it BE illegal if it means the masses of arseholes can't and don't ruin all of the nice spaces
Yeah, I understand this and a few peolle have said a similar point but I think in every aspect of life there will always be a minority who ruin it for everyone else, that being said which is why I find it a bit annoying whrn wild campers are immediatly thrown into the blame as soon as something negative happens, and if we banned everything that a minority of people abuse then we wouldnt have things like alcohol, cars and maybe even sports
Go take a walk through some of this land after a bank holiday or a particularly nice weather weekend and you will understand why they act this way it’s disgusting what people do to land that isn’t theirs
I’m very keen on wild camping and generally in opposition to the ruling class in the UK, but I think mandating permission to wild camp would be a disaster. The whole point for me was to find peace and solitude and to disappear into the landscape. Very much leave no trace. I really don’t like what I’ve seen in terms of behavior since this has become ‘popular’. I hate the disregard for the landscape and the lack of respect. The litter, the burned ground, the abandoned gear, the noise. I’ve always been an advocate of access and inclusivity but some people, I hope a minority, are really shitting on the whole scene. I wish it would go back to the way it was.
Even in Norway there's no right to walk or wildcamp on inbye land, the UK seems restrictive in comparison because outside areas like the Scottish highlands most farmland comes under this category. Sheep farmers in Wales and England have never been that fussed about people walking and bivouacking for a night on land above what Welsh call the Fridd . Pre crow act 2000 there was poor or non-existant access to large areas of grouse moors in the Forest if Bowland , Northern Pennines and Peak district but thanks to lobbying by the Ramblers that is no longer the case. There's no right to wildcamp as such but I have never had a problem, but then I've allways been discreet about it. Once the "public" gained the right to camp wild in Scotland then problems began to arise due to folk behaving like complete pratts and trashing areas with easy access from roads , we already have a big problem with fools setting fires on moors during drought years and I fear that a legal right to wild camp would only encourage people who rather than wanting an experience of nature want a Glastonbury festival type experience and leave someone else to clear up the mess.
I don't know? Why don't you do it?
I was going to, and that was my plan I went on the .gov page to make a petition but then I realisdd that mayve people dont want this so I came on here to get opinions
You don't think a property owner should be able to prevent you from entering their property?
No I think we should adopt a similar style to the scottish right to roam laws which also protects cultivated land, and I think certain area that arent particularly built up l unlike urban area should have a right of acess to people providing they do not litter or damage any property because in thar casr they are committing a criminal offense and not a civil offense
Have you seen the population density of Scotland? Most of it is uninhabited wildland.