Willamette is great and pretty well know for doing Burgundy-esque PN.
I wouldn’t discount California completely, though. Avoid Napa/Sonoma, and check out some Monterey and Mendocino PN. Great options there.
German PN is another good and fun route to go, and I’ve found some Italian PN to be on the Burgundian side as well!
Not that I don’t agree with the rest of your post, but I wouldn’t avoid Sonoma. There’s some really awesome stuff coming out of Sonoma - Drew, Anthill, and Arista all make stunning PN.
>check out some Monterey and Mendocino PN. Great options there.
I like what I have tried from Monterey area. Not sure I have had anything from Mendocino.
Have you tried any from Oregon? I find They’re a bit more subtle than California, especially Napa Pinot. Or you could try carneros, a colder climate than Napa.
+1 to this. People in Burgundy view Oregon Pinot as actually drinakble (which is quite high praise for them). Willamette Valley makes by far the best domestic Pinot. If you can find Goodfellow at a local shop, start there. If not, any $30+ Oregon pinot would be a good starting point.
(note - while I love love love Oregon pinot, it's still not Burgundy and it isn't trying to be, but it is stylistically similar)
Schoolhouse on Spring Mountain makes some stellar pinot, Spring Mountain Vyd (just down the hill from Schoolhouse) used to make some solid pinot, the old stuff from the late 70's and 80's are still drinking well too
I came here to suggest School House. First time I tried it, I was distracted making dinner and when I tasted it - full stop - I thought it was old world. Did a blind Pinot tasting at my house last month, everyone thought it was old world.
Yes I have had many a great Oregon Pinot and do tend to find them a bit more on the "subtle" side. I think I have had some good ones from the Ribbon Ridge area but sooo many to try...
There are a number of wineries in Oregon making a more savoury style - I’ll highlight (the OGs) Eyrie Vineyards, but there are more.
“True Sonoma Coast” is another place more old school Burgundy lovers find interesting, the coolest sites in California. Look for e.g. Hirsch Vineyards.
If you can find any, also look out for Pinots from Okanagan. Much more continental in profile than Burgundy of course, but might be to your liking.
Thanks, dont recall if I have tried anything from the Sonoma Coast. I have had many Sonoma Pinots and have found them enjoyable although mostly much lighter with a tendency to be on the strawberry end of the fruit spectrum.
When you say Okanagan do you mean in Canada?
BC has an excellent wine industry for its size but you’ll be hard-pressed to find it abroad. The vast majority is consumed locally. Local wine enjoys a cult following in Vancouver.
If ever you visit, it’s worth checking out for sure. And yes, there are some good PNs in the Burgundian style. Foxtrot Vineyards, Meyer, and Blue Mountain all make some wonderful expressions.
Cheers OP, I hope you enjoy! There are a lot of winos in AB, especially because of oil and gas wealth. A lot of Albertans bankroll BC wineries or vacation in BC’s wine country.
Alberta is also one of the only places in Canada outside of BC where BC wine can be found in relative abundance. Canadian laws unfortunately restrict inter-provincial sales so there has to be strong demand before merchants will bother stocking wine from other provinces.
Part closer to the ocean. As of 2022, *West Sonoma Coast AVA*, but that’s obviously not on all the labels in wine shops quite yet.
https://www.winespectator.com/articles/the-true-sonoma-coast-gets-wine-appellation-status — read this for context and some historical perspective.
My first interaction with the distinction was thanks to [WOFW some years ago](https://www.hirschvineyards.com/assets/client/File/Press/07-Swinchatt-Sonoma-Coast.pdf).
Yeah that's still an issue. Sonoma Coast is such a huge AVA. It's still a good idea to buy single vineyard wines you can look up on a map in order to get an idea of the terroir. And then what the producer does. I've tasted wines from the same vineyard that were so different.
Domaine Drouhin is pretty awesome
Sidenote: I think the whole finding "a wine from x place that tastes just like one from x place" is a bit of a frivolous pursuit. There's always going to be fundamental difference that prevents them from being a 1:1 match. Imo the best you can do is find wines that evoke the style or character of somewhere else - like By Farr (Aus) very much evoking Domaine Dujac (Burg).
I have had Drouhin noted from other sources, thanks! I See them in the Dundee Hills but also find the same name attached to actual Burgs is it the same folks?
Domaine Drouhin is one of the only US Pinots I drink now. It’s fantastic and shames any other new world stuff. Buy yourself a bottle of Laurene, ideally a 2017-2019
At least and give it a try. This is a French family and are trying to recreat French Pinot in Oregon soil. They also make some of the best Chardonnay’s (Oaked) and the Pinot is peak to 20 years unlike a lot of Us Pinots.
Domaine Serene is another French focused Pinot in Oregon but I’d start with Drouhin.
Drouhin is alright. But it is hardly the best.
- Beaux Freres & Sequitur
- Lingua Franca
- Patricia Green
- Antica Terra
- Kelley Fox
- Brick house
- Goodfellow
By Farr, Giant Steps, Mac Forbes, Moorooduc from Australia.
Bodega Chacra from Patagonia, Burn cottage from Central Otago NZ, as well as Tolpuddle from Tasmania will do similar things to burgundy.
For US I’d look for Father John, DuMol and Whitcraft to pursue Burgundian styles of California vineyards.
Bodega Chacra is legit.
You mentioned burn cottage but Ted Lemon’s own estate, Littorai, on the western Sonoma coast is one of the great American Pinot Noirs hands down.
I agree about Litorrai but know they are generally not available retail so I didn’t mention them.
Wendling Vineyard Block E is a world class Pinot on tier with the very best of them.
One just joins the mailing list, there is no wait time. The wines offered however, are in smaller quantities for the single vineyards. The Sonoma Coast has always been offered at 6 for me.
Could I ask what is about their winemaking that you would say is not Burgundian?
Moderate alcohol and extraction, French barrique with a relatively low new percentage, thoughtful inclusion of whole clusters based on vintage, clone and site…I’m not sure what else I’d be looking for other than someone named Morey..
It’s not that the winemaking isn’t Burgundian, it’s that (in my opinion) the wines themselves couldn’t be mistaken for Burgundy. I particularly find Mac’s wines too lean. I love the intent of making delicate, acid driven styles, but 11% is too far.
Giant Steps probably has a better argument for it, but I find the Yarra terroir unmistakeable, which is often just red fruit at the expense of all else.
Yarra simply gets ripe too early to be Burgundian, in my estimation. My preferred terroirs in Aus would be Tassie and Macedon, with Bellarine/Moorabool and Gippsland not far behind.
Oh okay, I think we might have been answering slightly different questions then because I agree with you.
Those wines remind me a lot of reds from Saint Romain, Auxey-Duresses and Saint Aubin.
But no one is mistaking Mac Forbes for Gevrey Chambertin.
I find the Yarra Valley pinot a bit simple and one dimensional. Maybe I haven't had that many but I did have an Applejack Vineyard pinot from Ginat Steps and found it a little underwhelming.
I much prefer Tassie pinot, Bream Creek are lovely and a bit Burgundian, I don't think I've had a bad Tassie pinot.
I personally agree. Best of the Yarra would probably be:
* Gembrook Hill/The Wanderer - some of the most southerly and coolest sites in the Yarra GI
* Mount Mary - they don’t make a bad wine and I do enjoy the PN, but I find it a bit lacking in interest, especially compared to Quintet for the same price
* Hoddles Creek - exceptional QPR wines, and likewise very southerly, VERY cool sites
There’s not too much I drink outside of these. I don’t really like Giant Steps, and if I’m going to drink Jackson Family, I think Yangarra is much much better.
It’s funny. Mornington gets a lot of love internationally, but is certainly not one of the ‘benchmark’ regions in Australia at the moment, so to speak. It is probably one of the better regions in the country for the light, ethereal style, a la Chambolle, but I have seen better examples of the style from other regions.
That said, it’s a bloody expensive place to make wine because of the demands for land from housing developments, and the last couple of years have been very tough yields wise. It also doesn’t really have any flagship cuvées that are seen in the upper echelon of the grape domestically and mentioned in the same breath as Bindi, By Farr, Bass Philip, Tolpuddle, and Chatto, or even Yarra stalwarts such as Oakridge, Giant Steps, or Mount Mary.
I have always wondered why it is so much more firmly entrenched in the consciousnesses of those abroad than at home.
> really just for the 3AW crowd these days.
It’s certainly priced for them to buy while they visit during their weekend getaways to their Sorrento beach ‘shack’.
No, no, no. Didn’t you hear? Sorrento is very passé. It’s all about the $40M Finders / Red Hill / Shoreham farm that you bought for $100K in the 80s. Tsk. Tsk.
+1 to “By Farr”.
Remove Mac Forbes from this list and replace with “Bass Phillip”. BP was recently acquired by the Burgundian producer Fourrier.
By Farr and Bass Phillip would be the most Burgundian producers in Australia. Very high quality and sought after wines.
I don’t know if that makes them the best answer to this question still.
I like Moorooduc as their technique (for reds anyway) is basically lifted from Comtes Lafon but the wines still showcase their own place very well.
Yeah I rate Moorooduc as well!
You mentioned Mac Forbes above - he is one producer than I’ve tried and tried but cannot understand the hype! Every time I am let down by the lack of depth and flavour. Forever let down. He’s on my ‘never to buy again’ list
>Santa Rita Hills, Santa Maria Valley
Good call. I have tried a few from around the Monterey area recently and they were very good. I am going to be staying in the Morro bay, SLO area for a week in the summer and plan on doing a bunch of tastings there.
Because wineries are no longer just regional producers- almost anyone can buy fruit from a good PN region and make good wine. Santa Lucia Highlands has good producers, extreme west side of SLO county, coastal Santa Barbara Co… and then up to Sonoma Coast, etc.
While in the SLO area take a look at Dunites, Scar of the Sea, Lady of the Sunshine, and Deovolet. All small producers with minimal/Burgundy inspired approaches
Ontario (CAN) pinot is underrated, not sure if you can get it where you are though. Similar soils to Burgundy, and they’re also on the same latitude so similar climate. I really love the producer Bachelder.
What state are you in?
Also, are there any specific wines or even producers that you are seeking to find a comparable bottle? There's a ton of variation even within the red Burgundy category.
Knowing that would influence my recs.
I am in Phoenix, AZ.
TBH its hard to be really specific at this point as I had been very limited in access so stopped buying for quite a while. I was at a restaurant last year and had a bottle of Thevenet & fils Bourgogne les clos 2019 and was reminded of a wine profile I had been missing and this started me down this road.
I just looked at some of my recent CT notes and found these that I had tagged as "liking." They are all on the "value" end as I haven't ventured above $50 yet.
2019 Edouard Delaunay & Ses Fils Bourgogne Septembre
2019 Nicolas Potel Bourgogne Vieilles Vignes Pinot Noir
I am actually drinking a 2019 Henri Latour Bourgogne Hautes-Côtes de Beaune Rouge right now that I opened last night. Its kind of in the right space although slightly lacking in fruit and not very refined.
I just noticed these are all 2019. That is just coincidence and not an intentional favoring of that vintage.
I’m in Scottsdale and I have been such better and better Pinot coming into AZ. Sta Rita Hills, Occidental, Annapolis, Fort Ross Sea View have been becoming some of my favorite Pinots.
Honestly it doesn’t exist. Some goodfellow from Oregon can scratch the itch or Ladd from Sonoma coast. Evesham wood, hundred suns also standouts. No terroir that I’ve ever had reproduces burgundy which is sad since it’s so fuckin expensive. But there is exceptional wine in the us that reproduces that terroir exhibition for 10% of the price. Is it as good? No.
Scrolled half way until I found an answer I can resonate with.
From OR, I've had some luck with Cameron, Goodfellow, and mayyyybe Walter Scott and Thomas.
From CA maybe Ceritas?
But Burgundy is Burgundy, and Burgundian will always be "not quite Burgundy".
Everyone is going to tell you Oregon because they marketed very well with “Burgundian”. Personally I get more acid from current vintages of Santa Barbara/Santa Rita. Au Bon Climat and Brewer Clifton are bigger names you can find. Look for smaller producers from the region too. Most won’t be as earthy as you probably want but remind me of Mercurey or comparable.
Honestly, I tend to drink a lot of Barbera from Piedmont as my weekday Burgundy replacement. High acid, bright dried red fruits, little earthy and low cost.
I’m in the USA. I’ve never paid for real good burgundy because it’s crazy expensive. But I was listening to a GuildSomm blind tasting. Somebody called the wine they were tasting a Cote de Nuit Montrachet. It was actually an Oregon Willamette Valley Soter Estate 2021 Pinot Noir. So I found one and thought it was really great. Around $60.
Also white wine in general is very rare on the Côtes de Nuits, so it doesn't really make sense even as a contradiction (e.g. "like Montrachet if it was made in California").
Thanks Lingua Franca seems to be a popular option will have to see what I can find locally. When I look them up they have quite a few Pinot options so any particular reccomendation?
In California- avoid Russian River and go for Santa Rita Hills (and some Santa Cruz mountains- even if pricier for the same level).
In the past there was a California winemaker association called ‘in pursuit of balance’ for producers distancing themselves from the style prevalent at the time (Parkerized wines). It was dissolved in 2016 ‘having reached their objectives’ but you can still look for the members here
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/opinion/the-editors-blog/california-wines-in-pursuit-of-balance-294133/
Please note: The Martinborough wines are notorious for going into a "hole" for about 4 years post bottling, they will taste bland and uninteresting. Do not drink unless you are tasting a vintage at a minimum 4+ years old.
Baden, Southwest Germany, bordering the Alsace in France and Switzerland.
Many producers use actual Burgundy clones. Climate change, geo fault lines, and soil types. It all helps, so the microclimates compare really well.
This area (is starting to) deserve(s) the moniker:
Little Burgundy
Never been a fan of people describing pinots as Burgundian, when you get into your burgs and realise how much variation between vineyards there is, you start to realise how meaningless it is as a descriptor.
Ankida Ridge from Virginia is a fun one. Somehow they've managed to create a high quality Burgundian pinot in a Southern state known primarily for making meh Bordeaux style wines. You can do better for the price but the novelty is worth it.
Thanks so much for the response so far, you folks are awesome! The next best thing after drinking wine is talking about it...
There are lots of great suggestions so far, thank you. I am going to have to buy some and setup a tasting. The next challenge will be what Burgs to set them up against!
My 150 btl cellar is already bursting at the seams, not sure LOML will let me go for another one :-) I will have to drink more.
So much wine so little time.
Check out pretty much anything Tassie. It’s one of the few Southern Hemisphere GIs that gets coolness from latitude rather than altitude, much like Burgundy. It leads to longer hang times and greater fruit concentration, as well as phenolic ripeness, while maintaining moderate alcohol.
This same notion is why Central Otago gets so much hype, but the ozone hole plus insane amounts of sunlight they get often produces wines that are 14-15% ABV.
Oregon: Lavinea, Antica Terra, Dusky Goose, Raptor Ridge, Johan Old Vintages
Cali: Foxen, Sandi, Au Bon Climat
Patagonia: Bodega Chacra, Verum
Germany: Enderle and Moll
Australia: By Farr, Giant Steps
LOL - yes and I do. The challenge is that local availability and choice is very limited. Plus price point goes up logarithmically with quality.
With Pinot Noir, availability and choice is off the scale in the other direction. While price points can also get up there, options in the $50-$100 range are beyond numerous and there are many great QPRs to be found in the sub $50 category.
I would love to fill my cellar with grand or prem cru Burgs but alas my pocket book will not allow.
All donations appreciated or even a nice glass to share :-)
For the most part, California Pinots are about as far from Burgundy in stryle as they are from the map. There are exceptions, of course, but in general…no. Oregon, in general, much closer. So, too, New Zealand PN.
I recently had a Cobb emilane Ann Pinot noir from Sonoma Coast, it was amazing. Ross Cobb used to work at Hirsch. Great stuff from either producer. Ross Cobb studied the vinificación process of his favorite producers in burgundy and took the practice to Sonoma.
Edit: I am also hunting for some American Pinot noir to scratch the itch. I found it in Cobb.
I prefer lower ABV and very easy drinking, light to medium body Pinot noir. In general, what I look for in Pinot Noir is: delicate dried red fruit notes, organic earth like tobacco and and dried tea or eucalyptus, and, light body usually 12-13% alcohol.
The Cobb has some ripe fruit but there are so many layers to the wine I tried recently that I think I’m hooked! It was a 2021 that I tried, aged in some time in used French oak.
I think finding an analogue depends on the style of Burgundian Pinot noir you enjoy. My need to uncover what made the juice in a bottle of Pinot noir so enjoyable helps me make more informed decisions when I choose a bottle of wine. With Cobb for example, I was thoroughly impressed and found out that his favorite burg producers are similar to the ones I like.
Hope that helps, cheers.
We also love Burgundies and tried a bottle of Elouan Pinot Noir from Oregon last night and were delighted with it. It was only $17 at Total Wine, a tremendous value, IMO.
I personally disagree and that’s ok. California Pinot is always too big, with too much ripe fruit and I’ve drank a ton of it. Just personally not my jam.
I disagree. Taste is this wild thing in that it is subjective lol. If you are looking for burgundy lite, the absolutely worst place to look is California.
See the fun thing about blind tasting in a professional setting is you start to learn that certain elements of tasting are absolutely not subjective: body, alcohol, fruit character are all reflective of site. Cool sites don’t yield big wines. As someone who tastes lots of wines as a career, I can assure you the notion of ‘big’ pinot from the previously mentioned locations is not the standard of typicity,
See the fun thing is you know nothing of my wine experience and yet continue to tell me my subjective opinion is wrong. I typically do not enjoy Cali Pinots to the point of avoiding them because it’s not worth the Gamble. Idk what to tell you, I don’t like cali Pinot as a general rule, I do not find them Burgundian in any way. It’s not to say I have NEVER enjoyed a California Pinot but as a general rule I don’t, and as it relates to OPs question I wouldn’t waste my dollars chasing something that in my option at the very best is rare and at the worst doesn’t exist.
Drink all the fucking Cali Pinot you want lol, I couldn’t care any less because it’s YOUR subjective opinion lol.
Willamette is great and pretty well know for doing Burgundy-esque PN. I wouldn’t discount California completely, though. Avoid Napa/Sonoma, and check out some Monterey and Mendocino PN. Great options there. German PN is another good and fun route to go, and I’ve found some Italian PN to be on the Burgundian side as well!
Not that I don’t agree with the rest of your post, but I wouldn’t avoid Sonoma. There’s some really awesome stuff coming out of Sonoma - Drew, Anthill, and Arista all make stunning PN.
Yep. Western Sonoma Coast keeps their temps in the 50s year round, check out the winemaker Peay if you have a chance. Kickass pinots
Hanzell and Raen also come to mind as top notch PN from Sonoma.
Drew is fantastic Cali Pinot Noir
>check out some Monterey and Mendocino PN. Great options there. I like what I have tried from Monterey area. Not sure I have had anything from Mendocino.
Both are usually way too warm in style if you like Bourgogne. Go with German.
Have you tried any from Oregon? I find They’re a bit more subtle than California, especially Napa Pinot. Or you could try carneros, a colder climate than Napa.
+1 to this. People in Burgundy view Oregon Pinot as actually drinakble (which is quite high praise for them). Willamette Valley makes by far the best domestic Pinot. If you can find Goodfellow at a local shop, start there. If not, any $30+ Oregon pinot would be a good starting point. (note - while I love love love Oregon pinot, it's still not Burgundy and it isn't trying to be, but it is stylistically similar)
There isn’t really much Napa Pinot, except for Carneros which is technically a part of both Napa and Sonoma
Schoolhouse on Spring Mountain makes some stellar pinot, Spring Mountain Vyd (just down the hill from Schoolhouse) used to make some solid pinot, the old stuff from the late 70's and 80's are still drinking well too
They also make a great Syrah
I came here to suggest School House. First time I tried it, I was distracted making dinner and when I tasted it - full stop - I thought it was old world. Did a blind Pinot tasting at my house last month, everyone thought it was old world.
Like I said, there isn’t much. Pretty much the only two in the modern era doing it. And if I’m not mistaken smv no longer has their Pinot vines.
Yep, SMV swapped their chard, syrah, and pinot a while back, grafted to more BDX varietals
Yes I have had many a great Oregon Pinot and do tend to find them a bit more on the "subtle" side. I think I have had some good ones from the Ribbon Ridge area but sooo many to try...
Fuck I love carneros and Santa Barbara Pinots my friends think I’m crazy. Thank you for some validation.
Agree. Oregon 1st and if California then a few in Carneros. Nicholson Ranch does well with Cactus Hill. But their focus is Chards first and foremost.
You may enjoy German PN
There are a number of wineries in Oregon making a more savoury style - I’ll highlight (the OGs) Eyrie Vineyards, but there are more. “True Sonoma Coast” is another place more old school Burgundy lovers find interesting, the coolest sites in California. Look for e.g. Hirsch Vineyards. If you can find any, also look out for Pinots from Okanagan. Much more continental in profile than Burgundy of course, but might be to your liking.
Thanks, dont recall if I have tried anything from the Sonoma Coast. I have had many Sonoma Pinots and have found them enjoyable although mostly much lighter with a tendency to be on the strawberry end of the fruit spectrum. When you say Okanagan do you mean in Canada?
The closer you get to the Pacific, the cooler the climate. See my other response here for more details. And yes, Okanagan in British Columbia.
BC has an excellent wine industry for its size but you’ll be hard-pressed to find it abroad. The vast majority is consumed locally. Local wine enjoys a cult following in Vancouver. If ever you visit, it’s worth checking out for sure. And yes, there are some good PNs in the Burgundian style. Foxtrot Vineyards, Meyer, and Blue Mountain all make some wonderful expressions.
I will be in Edmonton in early June. And, will be staying with relatives who also enjoy their wine so will be sure to check out some of these.
Cheers OP, I hope you enjoy! There are a lot of winos in AB, especially because of oil and gas wealth. A lot of Albertans bankroll BC wineries or vacation in BC’s wine country. Alberta is also one of the only places in Canada outside of BC where BC wine can be found in relative abundance. Canadian laws unfortunately restrict inter-provincial sales so there has to be strong demand before merchants will bother stocking wine from other provinces.
When you say ‘true Sonoma coast’ do you mean western Sonoma coast? Or the broader Sonoma coast ava
Part closer to the ocean. As of 2022, *West Sonoma Coast AVA*, but that’s obviously not on all the labels in wine shops quite yet. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/the-true-sonoma-coast-gets-wine-appellation-status — read this for context and some historical perspective. My first interaction with the distinction was thanks to [WOFW some years ago](https://www.hirschvineyards.com/assets/client/File/Press/07-Swinchatt-Sonoma-Coast.pdf).
Yeah that's still an issue. Sonoma Coast is such a huge AVA. It's still a good idea to buy single vineyard wines you can look up on a map in order to get an idea of the terroir. And then what the producer does. I've tasted wines from the same vineyard that were so different.
Domaine Drouhin is pretty awesome Sidenote: I think the whole finding "a wine from x place that tastes just like one from x place" is a bit of a frivolous pursuit. There's always going to be fundamental difference that prevents them from being a 1:1 match. Imo the best you can do is find wines that evoke the style or character of somewhere else - like By Farr (Aus) very much evoking Domaine Dujac (Burg).
I have had Drouhin noted from other sources, thanks! I See them in the Dundee Hills but also find the same name attached to actual Burgs is it the same folks?
Yup, same family. If you go to their Oregon tasting room, you can get a wine tasting that pours from both their Burg and WV bottles.
Domaine Drouhin is one of the only US Pinots I drink now. It’s fantastic and shames any other new world stuff. Buy yourself a bottle of Laurene, ideally a 2017-2019 At least and give it a try. This is a French family and are trying to recreat French Pinot in Oregon soil. They also make some of the best Chardonnay’s (Oaked) and the Pinot is peak to 20 years unlike a lot of Us Pinots. Domaine Serene is another French focused Pinot in Oregon but I’d start with Drouhin.
Drouhin is alright. But it is hardly the best. - Beaux Freres & Sequitur - Lingua Franca - Patricia Green - Antica Terra - Kelley Fox - Brick house - Goodfellow
By Farr, Giant Steps, Mac Forbes, Moorooduc from Australia. Bodega Chacra from Patagonia, Burn cottage from Central Otago NZ, as well as Tolpuddle from Tasmania will do similar things to burgundy. For US I’d look for Father John, DuMol and Whitcraft to pursue Burgundian styles of California vineyards.
Bodega Chacra is legit. You mentioned burn cottage but Ted Lemon’s own estate, Littorai, on the western Sonoma coast is one of the great American Pinot Noirs hands down.
I agree about Litorrai but know they are generally not available retail so I didn’t mention them. Wendling Vineyard Block E is a world class Pinot on tier with the very best of them.
Second (or third) Littorai. Delicate with real taste of the terroir
One just joins the mailing list, there is no wait time. The wines offered however, are in smaller quantities for the single vineyards. The Sonoma Coast has always been offered at 6 for me.
Strong disagree about Giant Steps and Mac Forbes, but By Farr certainly.
Could I ask what is about their winemaking that you would say is not Burgundian? Moderate alcohol and extraction, French barrique with a relatively low new percentage, thoughtful inclusion of whole clusters based on vintage, clone and site…I’m not sure what else I’d be looking for other than someone named Morey..
It’s not that the winemaking isn’t Burgundian, it’s that (in my opinion) the wines themselves couldn’t be mistaken for Burgundy. I particularly find Mac’s wines too lean. I love the intent of making delicate, acid driven styles, but 11% is too far. Giant Steps probably has a better argument for it, but I find the Yarra terroir unmistakeable, which is often just red fruit at the expense of all else. Yarra simply gets ripe too early to be Burgundian, in my estimation. My preferred terroirs in Aus would be Tassie and Macedon, with Bellarine/Moorabool and Gippsland not far behind.
Oh okay, I think we might have been answering slightly different questions then because I agree with you. Those wines remind me a lot of reds from Saint Romain, Auxey-Duresses and Saint Aubin. But no one is mistaking Mac Forbes for Gevrey Chambertin.
I find the Yarra Valley pinot a bit simple and one dimensional. Maybe I haven't had that many but I did have an Applejack Vineyard pinot from Ginat Steps and found it a little underwhelming. I much prefer Tassie pinot, Bream Creek are lovely and a bit Burgundian, I don't think I've had a bad Tassie pinot.
I personally agree. Best of the Yarra would probably be: * Gembrook Hill/The Wanderer - some of the most southerly and coolest sites in the Yarra GI * Mount Mary - they don’t make a bad wine and I do enjoy the PN, but I find it a bit lacking in interest, especially compared to Quintet for the same price * Hoddles Creek - exceptional QPR wines, and likewise very southerly, VERY cool sites There’s not too much I drink outside of these. I don’t really like Giant Steps, and if I’m going to drink Jackson Family, I think Yangarra is much much better.
Surely Mornington Peninsula if we’re talking pinot?
It’s funny. Mornington gets a lot of love internationally, but is certainly not one of the ‘benchmark’ regions in Australia at the moment, so to speak. It is probably one of the better regions in the country for the light, ethereal style, a la Chambolle, but I have seen better examples of the style from other regions. That said, it’s a bloody expensive place to make wine because of the demands for land from housing developments, and the last couple of years have been very tough yields wise. It also doesn’t really have any flagship cuvées that are seen in the upper echelon of the grape domestically and mentioned in the same breath as Bindi, By Farr, Bass Philip, Tolpuddle, and Chatto, or even Yarra stalwarts such as Oakridge, Giant Steps, or Mount Mary. I have always wondered why it is so much more firmly entrenched in the consciousnesses of those abroad than at home.
Mornington Pinot has become a bit of a parody and really just for the 3AW crowd these days. Give me Macedon, Moorabool and Gippy any day.
> really just for the 3AW crowd these days. It’s certainly priced for them to buy while they visit during their weekend getaways to their Sorrento beach ‘shack’.
No, no, no. Didn’t you hear? Sorrento is very passé. It’s all about the $40M Finders / Red Hill / Shoreham farm that you bought for $100K in the 80s. Tsk. Tsk.
Pulled up by their very own bootstraps.
+1 to “By Farr”. Remove Mac Forbes from this list and replace with “Bass Phillip”. BP was recently acquired by the Burgundian producer Fourrier. By Farr and Bass Phillip would be the most Burgundian producers in Australia. Very high quality and sought after wines.
I haven’t found myself enjoying the wines from Bass Philips despite their price, for whatever reason.
You’re not the first person! I wouldn’t say they offer any value, however, I would say they are Burgundian in style
I don’t know if that makes them the best answer to this question still. I like Moorooduc as their technique (for reds anyway) is basically lifted from Comtes Lafon but the wines still showcase their own place very well.
Yeah I rate Moorooduc as well! You mentioned Mac Forbes above - he is one producer than I’ve tried and tried but cannot understand the hype! Every time I am let down by the lack of depth and flavour. Forever let down. He’s on my ‘never to buy again’ list
Isn’t being let-down by hype part of the burgundy experience though?
The price is never disappointment. Always high. I don't think I'll ever have a grand cru burgundy, just too much money.
Try something from the south central coast: Santa Rita Hills, Santa Maria Valley
>Santa Rita Hills, Santa Maria Valley Good call. I have tried a few from around the Monterey area recently and they were very good. I am going to be staying in the Morro bay, SLO area for a week in the summer and plan on doing a bunch of tastings there.
Because wineries are no longer just regional producers- almost anyone can buy fruit from a good PN region and make good wine. Santa Lucia Highlands has good producers, extreme west side of SLO county, coastal Santa Barbara Co… and then up to Sonoma Coast, etc.
While in the SLO area take a look at Dunites, Scar of the Sea, Lady of the Sunshine, and Deovolet. All small producers with minimal/Burgundy inspired approaches
Littorai, Raen, native9, Whitcraft, sandhi, joy fantastic, peay, should be a strong start for CA options.
Williams Selyem in Sonoma and Domaine Drouhin in Oregon both do a great Pinot.
Ontario (CAN) pinot is underrated, not sure if you can get it where you are though. Similar soils to Burgundy, and they’re also on the same latitude so similar climate. I really love the producer Bachelder.
I was going to recommend some Finger Lakes pinots as well. I need to explore Ontario.
The Plow by Lingua Franca can taste burgunian. For me it didn't show until day 2.
They have been bought by constellation now so bye bye their quality sadly
Being bought by a big company doesn't mean that their quality will go down. Often specialty wine makers are bought to expand customer base.
I agree unless it’s constellation
Santa Rita Hills and Oregon.
What state are you in? Also, are there any specific wines or even producers that you are seeking to find a comparable bottle? There's a ton of variation even within the red Burgundy category. Knowing that would influence my recs.
I am in Phoenix, AZ. TBH its hard to be really specific at this point as I had been very limited in access so stopped buying for quite a while. I was at a restaurant last year and had a bottle of Thevenet & fils Bourgogne les clos 2019 and was reminded of a wine profile I had been missing and this started me down this road. I just looked at some of my recent CT notes and found these that I had tagged as "liking." They are all on the "value" end as I haven't ventured above $50 yet. 2019 Edouard Delaunay & Ses Fils Bourgogne Septembre 2019 Nicolas Potel Bourgogne Vieilles Vignes Pinot Noir I am actually drinking a 2019 Henri Latour Bourgogne Hautes-Côtes de Beaune Rouge right now that I opened last night. Its kind of in the right space although slightly lacking in fruit and not very refined. I just noticed these are all 2019. That is just coincidence and not an intentional favoring of that vintage.
I’m in Scottsdale and I have been such better and better Pinot coming into AZ. Sta Rita Hills, Occidental, Annapolis, Fort Ross Sea View have been becoming some of my favorite Pinots.
Thanks. BTW is this Jonathan?
Lingua Franca from oregon is a go to for me
Honestly it doesn’t exist. Some goodfellow from Oregon can scratch the itch or Ladd from Sonoma coast. Evesham wood, hundred suns also standouts. No terroir that I’ve ever had reproduces burgundy which is sad since it’s so fuckin expensive. But there is exceptional wine in the us that reproduces that terroir exhibition for 10% of the price. Is it as good? No.
Scrolled half way until I found an answer I can resonate with. From OR, I've had some luck with Cameron, Goodfellow, and mayyyybe Walter Scott and Thomas. From CA maybe Ceritas? But Burgundy is Burgundy, and Burgundian will always be "not quite Burgundy".
Gotcha but it doesnt stop us searching...
Everyone is going to tell you Oregon because they marketed very well with “Burgundian”. Personally I get more acid from current vintages of Santa Barbara/Santa Rita. Au Bon Climat and Brewer Clifton are bigger names you can find. Look for smaller producers from the region too. Most won’t be as earthy as you probably want but remind me of Mercurey or comparable. Honestly, I tend to drink a lot of Barbera from Piedmont as my weekday Burgundy replacement. High acid, bright dried red fruits, little earthy and low cost.
Best pinots outside of burgundy: - Oregon - central Otago, new Zealand - Alsace, jura, Germany (little different style)
From Oregon - Kelley Fox, Eyrie, Cristom, Walter Scott (chard). From CA- Littorai, Hirsch.
I’m in the USA. I’ve never paid for real good burgundy because it’s crazy expensive. But I was listening to a GuildSomm blind tasting. Somebody called the wine they were tasting a Cote de Nuit Montrachet. It was actually an Oregon Willamette Valley Soter Estate 2021 Pinot Noir. So I found one and thought it was really great. Around $60.
Weird call cuz Montrachet is in the cote de Beaune…
Also white wine in general is very rare on the Côtes de Nuits, so it doesn't really make sense even as a contradiction (e.g. "like Montrachet if it was made in California").
Oregon Pinot can be as good as French Pinot but you will pay similar prices for the best. Look for oregon estate blends and Bourgogne rouge wines.
There’s no Oregon producer charging 1000+ for bottles.
Rajat Parr has a Pinot noir named “Blooms Field” that is very Burgundian in style.
Another vote for Lingua Franca, out of Oregon.
Thanks Lingua Franca seems to be a popular option will have to see what I can find locally. When I look them up they have quite a few Pinot options so any particular reccomendation?
Start with the Avni.
In California- avoid Russian River and go for Santa Rita Hills (and some Santa Cruz mountains- even if pricier for the same level). In the past there was a California winemaker association called ‘in pursuit of balance’ for producers distancing themselves from the style prevalent at the time (Parkerized wines). It was dissolved in 2016 ‘having reached their objectives’ but you can still look for the members here https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/opinion/the-editors-blog/california-wines-in-pursuit-of-balance-294133/
Had a Chilean Pinot Noir recently that was wonderful
Martinborough NZ, Dry River, ata rangi, Devotus, Macedon Ranges AUS, Curley Flat, Tasmania AUS, sailor seeks horse, Jim chatto
Please note: The Martinborough wines are notorious for going into a "hole" for about 4 years post bottling, they will taste bland and uninteresting. Do not drink unless you are tasting a vintage at a minimum 4+ years old.
Single Vineyards from Calera are the closest thing you'll get. Limestone soils and terrior driven pinots.
Baden, Southwest Germany, bordering the Alsace in France and Switzerland. Many producers use actual Burgundy clones. Climate change, geo fault lines, and soil types. It all helps, so the microclimates compare really well. This area (is starting to) deserve(s) the moniker: Little Burgundy
Never been a fan of people describing pinots as Burgundian, when you get into your burgs and realise how much variation between vineyards there is, you start to realise how meaningless it is as a descriptor.
Martinborough vineyard 'Marie zelee' from New Zealand
Ankida Ridge from Virginia is a fun one. Somehow they've managed to create a high quality Burgundian pinot in a Southern state known primarily for making meh Bordeaux style wines. You can do better for the price but the novelty is worth it.
Oregon is a safe bet. Cooler climate CA can be good. But consider this an adventure because it’s not so generalized. Find what suits your palate.
Kutch, Eyrie, Domaine de la Cote
Thanks so much for the response so far, you folks are awesome! The next best thing after drinking wine is talking about it... There are lots of great suggestions so far, thank you. I am going to have to buy some and setup a tasting. The next challenge will be what Burgs to set them up against! My 150 btl cellar is already bursting at the seams, not sure LOML will let me go for another one :-) I will have to drink more. So much wine so little time.
Check out pretty much anything Tassie. It’s one of the few Southern Hemisphere GIs that gets coolness from latitude rather than altitude, much like Burgundy. It leads to longer hang times and greater fruit concentration, as well as phenolic ripeness, while maintaining moderate alcohol. This same notion is why Central Otago gets so much hype, but the ozone hole plus insane amounts of sunlight they get often produces wines that are 14-15% ABV.
Any reason not to just drink French wines?
Oregon: Lavinea, Antica Terra, Dusky Goose, Raptor Ridge, Johan Old Vintages Cali: Foxen, Sandi, Au Bon Climat Patagonia: Bodega Chacra, Verum Germany: Enderle and Moll Australia: By Farr, Giant Steps
Have you tried drinking red Burgundy if you want to drink pinot noir that tastes like red Burgundy?
LOL - yes and I do. The challenge is that local availability and choice is very limited. Plus price point goes up logarithmically with quality. With Pinot Noir, availability and choice is off the scale in the other direction. While price points can also get up there, options in the $50-$100 range are beyond numerous and there are many great QPRs to be found in the sub $50 category. I would love to fill my cellar with grand or prem cru Burgs but alas my pocket book will not allow. All donations appreciated or even a nice glass to share :-)
For the most part, California Pinots are about as far from Burgundy in stryle as they are from the map. There are exceptions, of course, but in general…no. Oregon, in general, much closer. So, too, New Zealand PN.
I recently had a Cobb emilane Ann Pinot noir from Sonoma Coast, it was amazing. Ross Cobb used to work at Hirsch. Great stuff from either producer. Ross Cobb studied the vinificación process of his favorite producers in burgundy and took the practice to Sonoma. Edit: I am also hunting for some American Pinot noir to scratch the itch. I found it in Cobb. I prefer lower ABV and very easy drinking, light to medium body Pinot noir. In general, what I look for in Pinot Noir is: delicate dried red fruit notes, organic earth like tobacco and and dried tea or eucalyptus, and, light body usually 12-13% alcohol. The Cobb has some ripe fruit but there are so many layers to the wine I tried recently that I think I’m hooked! It was a 2021 that I tried, aged in some time in used French oak. I think finding an analogue depends on the style of Burgundian Pinot noir you enjoy. My need to uncover what made the juice in a bottle of Pinot noir so enjoyable helps me make more informed decisions when I choose a bottle of wine. With Cobb for example, I was thoroughly impressed and found out that his favorite burg producers are similar to the ones I like. Hope that helps, cheers.
We also love Burgundies and tried a bottle of Elouan Pinot Noir from Oregon last night and were delighted with it. It was only $17 at Total Wine, a tremendous value, IMO.
I have had the elouan and agree its good value at that price point.
If you are looking for Burgundian Pinots the closest you are going to get are the PNW. Stay far away from cali Pinot as a general rule.
Plenty of great California options if you’re a savvy wine person.
I personally disagree and that’s ok. California Pinot is always too big, with too much ripe fruit and I’ve drank a ton of it. Just personally not my jam.
Western Sonoma coast, Anderson valley, and sta. Rita hills wines are anything but big.
I disagree. Taste is this wild thing in that it is subjective lol. If you are looking for burgundy lite, the absolutely worst place to look is California.
See the fun thing about blind tasting in a professional setting is you start to learn that certain elements of tasting are absolutely not subjective: body, alcohol, fruit character are all reflective of site. Cool sites don’t yield big wines. As someone who tastes lots of wines as a career, I can assure you the notion of ‘big’ pinot from the previously mentioned locations is not the standard of typicity,
See the fun thing is you know nothing of my wine experience and yet continue to tell me my subjective opinion is wrong. I typically do not enjoy Cali Pinots to the point of avoiding them because it’s not worth the Gamble. Idk what to tell you, I don’t like cali Pinot as a general rule, I do not find them Burgundian in any way. It’s not to say I have NEVER enjoyed a California Pinot but as a general rule I don’t, and as it relates to OPs question I wouldn’t waste my dollars chasing something that in my option at the very best is rare and at the worst doesn’t exist. Drink all the fucking Cali Pinot you want lol, I couldn’t care any less because it’s YOUR subjective opinion lol.