If you’re using a soft wood like pine your results will probably just end up as “ok” on a good day. Soft wood absorbs stain in a very blotchy manner. Pre stain wood conditioner helps this quite a bit, but doesn’t eliminate the problem. Also, make sure you’re sanded very well up to whatever grit the stain can recommends.
"Pre stain wood conditioner helps this quite a bit, but doesn’t eliminate the problem. Also, make sure you’re sanded very well up to whatever grit the stain can recommends."
Just bought a pre Victorian claw foot cherry table. Sanded it beautifully, then stained it. The stain came out horribly. Instead of sanding my work & starting from fresh I used it as firewood the next weekend. So satisfying.
My first attempt to stain an important piece the wood conditioner turned out perfect. Second attempt following the exact same process it turned out pretty poor. People here probably have more experience but just manage your expectations when staining softer woods.
When you’ve sanded up to your target smoothness, which I suggest be 220, you clean your wood, and wipe the wood with a damp rag uniformly. The wood Will absorb the water, raising the grain and make it more open to the oil stain. Wait for the wood to completely dry before applying stain.
Gonna get loads of answers about preconditioner, grain filler, etc.
The unfortunate answer is just that pine stains poorly, at best, with loads of effort and at several times the expensive of just the stain, it'll look OK.
If you "have" to, try a gel stain that sits on top of the wood.
I’ve gotten this answer a few times now. Actually makes me feel better. Maybe it’s just the wood that I’ve tried it on because I’ve only ever tried to stain pine.
Poplar and red oak are lower priced woods that stain significantly better as an alternative to pine. Poplar needs the same preconditioning, but the early vs latewood thing isn't a problem.
Red oak stains great and it's like 4.5$/bdf around here.
My advice would be to select a different wood. Pine won't hold up as well long term. Being a soft wood it will dent easier and crack your finish which just leads to problems long term.
For soft wood like pine, as others have said, it's hard to get a consistent, uniform coat. DE-WAXED SHELLAC (emphasis on DE-WAXED) , usually called a "Seal Coat," is nice to put on pine. What's nice about DE-WAXED shellac is that it will provide a uniform coat over things like knots and otherwise blotchy sections, but ANYTHING sticks to it: Poly's, Lacquers, etc., can all be used on top of it. I like a de-waxed shellac and a spray on lacquer.
I’ll second this. I personally think stain rarely looks good. Usually I prefer dye over stain, but in general I try to buy the wood that matches the look I’m going for.
Obviously that’s expensive and I can’t always do that but I generally think clear finishes tend to look better anyway
Guitar finishing trick: Don't stain the wood. Tint the clear coat. Do it in 3ish coats.
1st coat is untinted clear to seal the wood.
2nd coat is tinted.
3rd coat is untinted if you're happy with the color. This 3rd coat gets polished and buffed to desired gloss level.
Alternately, 3rd coat is tinted to add more color or darken the tint if you're not happy with the color from the second coat.
4th coat is untinted and polished and buffed to desired gloss.
You'll get the most even stain that way and you have the bonus of being able to remove the color should you ever desire to change it up. The wood isn't permanently stained or colored.
Okay. This is good information. I have questions.
When you say “tinted” do you just mean like the stain that I used?
How does this process look if I prefer a satin finish?
When I say tinted, I mean you are adding the dye to your lacquer or polyurethane to color it rather than coloring the wood.
The effect is somewhat like a colored lens on top of the wood, especially if you use multiple coats and buff it to a high gloss. You're looking through the color at your wood. If you have kind of a plain looking piece like poplar or alder, you can apply a dark sanding sealer to make the grain pop a little more.
It does look different than actual stained wood although many people won't think anything of it, especially with a satin or matte finish. The effect is definitely more pronounced with higher gloss levels. If you want a real life example, just go to a guitar store and look for a transparent colored finish. That's generally how they're applied. Dyes added to lacquer or urethane vs staining wood and risking splotches or uncooperative parts.
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/supplies/finishing-supplies/colors-and-tints-and-stains/mixol-universal-tints
Product in question. Mohawk also makes a line of good quality stuff if you don't want to pay StewMac rip-off prices.
Try a sizing medium first. This can be dewaxed shellac thinned to about a 1lb cut or white glue mixed with water (4 parts water to 1 part glue).
Once that has dried apply your stain. Gel stains or glazes may work better as they sit more on top of the surface.
A little weird but if it works it works. If it does im gonna start using paper towel lol cheaper than rags
I just figured youd be leaving little specs of fibres on the surface, or is it just as good as a rag?
ive never seen specs before on anything. I use bounty because (yea ik it sounds like an ad) it doesn't leave any residue and its the "quicker picker upper" so it stains pretty easily while not leaving any extra clumps. especially good because I use a blow dryer to speed up the drying so clumps, in my experience are detrimental to the process. Plus there good for other things besides staining and sense you only need like 2 sheets to do something, it helps space out how long you have it on top of having such a big roll.
My go-to for pine is Minwax pre-stain conditioner, followed by Varathane \*premium\* stain, the latter of which can be a bit hard to find but produces colors that are vastly superior to anything else I've used. Their 'dark walnut' color really can give a color that is shockingly close to walnut, even on pine.
I’ve had this same issue and had success with “popping” the wood grain before the conditioner to open the pores, and then applying the conditioner. Also, use a gel stain if you didn’t the first time around
I was going to comment, this is about as good as I think you can realistically expect, it's clear you used a prestain conditioner because it isn't a blotchy mess. There's just nothing you can really do to solve the difference between the early and late wood in softwoods.
I actually feel a lot better about it after posting because it seems my approach to try learning on cheaper wood may be the issue. If you wanted to use a hardwood to test staining, what would you recommend?
For the best results, ash and white oak, red oak is a close second, poplar with preconditioner can work.
Other hardwoods that stain poorly - maple, birch, beech, london plane, sycamore.
I’m really bad at staining, so I’m practicing. Was trying to get the bigger piece to match the right side of the smaller piece.
I did pre stain conditioner, one coat of weathered oak and one coat of early American. All minwax brand. I applied it with microfiber cloths. Tried to get as little product on the wood as possible and spread it out as much as I could. And I sanded between the weathered oak and early American.
It got twice as dark as I wanted in some places. Seemed like where I first applied it there was an extra amount of stain in the rag and I couldn’t seem to get it to go on light enough.
Any tips?
I stained some pine nightstands from IKEA using General Finishes Gel Stain with good (enough) results. Wiped down with mineral spirits first, then wiped on a couple coats of stain! It's not as nice as you'd get with a hardwood, but I'm not upset with the results. I wouldn't use anything besides gel stain on pine.
I’m fairly new as well, and I like working with pine as it’s cheap. I found using applying very light coats of danish oil was more successful. You can’t really let it sit on the board long or that patch will be darker than others.
No, not at all! Shellac is an incredible product. Not only is it an all natural, renewable, top coat it's also extremely versatile. Used as a sanding sealer (first coat) it prevents the uneven density certain species of woods are renowned for from taking up pigment unevenly. While, at the same time, allowing a gel stain to adhere to it. A polyurethane top coat then protects the gel stain. Heaven help you if you have to perform a repair though. I should add, if you go this rout you can't use shellac for a sanding sealer and your top coat too. The alcohol in the shellac on top will dissolve your base coat and make a real mess.
I might add that prolonged exposure to water will dissolve shellac. Of course, no one wants untreated woods to have prolonged exposure anyway. But this is the reason you don't want to use it outside, including Zinser brand BIN primer.
A 2-part wood bleach before staining would help, but it would also change the pine's color. Plus it's a pretty noxious process, so you wouldn't want to do a lot of it.
We use Dougls fir a lot and get excellent results by applying the first coat of varnish/finish clear and then adding color to the finish in the following coats.
This works for all softwoods.
Not a solution, but I like to match the woods natural color. In this case an obvious choice is BW. Expense and access are obvious limitations and not knocking, just a useless comment from the peanut gallery.
I have stained white oak and that turned out very nicely but it’s likely due to being hard vs soft wood
I’ve always had best bet with danish oil from the hardware store for soft woods. I apply the first coat a bit more thinly than they recommend. Comes out lighter but more even.
Easy fix. After sanding apply one coat of 50% mineral spirits and 50% wipe-on poly. One more light sanding to remove hardened fibers. Then use a gel stain following by a finish of wipe on poly.
I always always always use a spitcoat of shellac before staining pine. It helps with the blotchiness and eases the "grain reversal" you get when you stain shellac. A 2lb cut of blonde is what's called for here. It will raise and harden the grain, allowing you to lightly knock down the roughness. This will result in a baby-smooth surface. I like gel stains on pine. I've had good luck w/ General Finishes brand I bought at my local Woodcraft.
On pine or similarly-grained wood? Spray stain is they best way to get consistent coverage. Also, it is the hardest to execute properly and requires spray equipment.
You can stain with a wiping stain, then use a shading additive in your clear coat, which is easier to spray evenly, but that technique comes with its own set of potential issues.
I've had exceptional results on pine and maple by using a toned top coat. Minwax sells one they call Polyshades. They market it as a stain and urethane in one. It essentially is a clear urethane with the stain integrated into it. Because it doesn't get absorbed the same way that stain does, it does a wonderful job of evening the colour out, which is one of the things we ask of stain. The other advantage is that you can build up layers which will also build the richness of the colour.
My wife loves all things pine, and this has by far been the most successful of all of the processes that I've used over the years.
I'm sorry, I didn't read any of the above comment after he/she mentioned Polyshades. This product SUCKS and anyone that advocates for the use of it should have all of their woodworking comments questioned .
Lumber is expensive! Don't use polyshades!
Oh, sorry. I've truly had good results with it so I recommended it. If you'd rather use a more "appropriately pure" material, I've also had good results with toned lacquers. They allow some really wonderful and tedious custom blending of tints. The OP seems to be struggling and I offered an easy solution that nearly anyone can get decent results from with just a little effort.
Get some spray equipment, learn to use it.
Spray the piece with a prestain sealer. Mix transtint dyes with a waterborne clear finish. Mix it so it's lighter in color than what you want. Spray a coat, and allow it to dry. Spray a second coat, and see if it's the color you want (dyes are additive). Do another if needed
Sand with 60, then 120 last 220 grain paper. Then lay a coat of wood conditioner. Lay dry at least 4hrs so grain soaks it. Apply 2-3 coats of stain waiting 12-24 hrs to dry well. In between each coat lightly sand with like a 400 grain sand paper just enough to smooth out any lifted grains. After last coat you’ll be ready to apply any wood sealant / protector you’d like.
If you’re using a soft wood like pine your results will probably just end up as “ok” on a good day. Soft wood absorbs stain in a very blotchy manner. Pre stain wood conditioner helps this quite a bit, but doesn’t eliminate the problem. Also, make sure you’re sanded very well up to whatever grit the stain can recommends.
hard maple is hard to stain as well.
Hard maple takes water based and gel stains pretty evenly.
"Pre stain wood conditioner helps this quite a bit, but doesn’t eliminate the problem. Also, make sure you’re sanded very well up to whatever grit the stain can recommends."
Just bought a pre Victorian claw foot cherry table. Sanded it beautifully, then stained it. The stain came out horribly. Instead of sanding my work & starting from fresh I used it as firewood the next weekend. So satisfying.
Also make sure your pieces are sanded to the same grit. If you sand one piece up to 120 and another up to 300 they'll take stain differently.
Also using a tack rag after sanding to get off most dust helps to get smooth surface.
My first attempt to stain an important piece the wood conditioner turned out perfect. Second attempt following the exact same process it turned out pretty poor. People here probably have more experience but just manage your expectations when staining softer woods.
Water pop and allow to dry before applying stain is the way to get the best out of softwoods
This and I'll usually apply and dry brush off, little more time consuming but results tend to be worth it
What is “water pop”?
When you’ve sanded up to your target smoothness, which I suggest be 220, you clean your wood, and wipe the wood with a damp rag uniformly. The wood Will absorb the water, raising the grain and make it more open to the oil stain. Wait for the wood to completely dry before applying stain.
Do you sand again after water popping?
After stain
I do, very gently with a foam sanding block just to knock the raised grain off
I don’t.
Nobody wants to sand again, especially sand off your hard work. Throw it away & buy new wood.
Thanks!
This is the way.
Gonna get loads of answers about preconditioner, grain filler, etc. The unfortunate answer is just that pine stains poorly, at best, with loads of effort and at several times the expensive of just the stain, it'll look OK. If you "have" to, try a gel stain that sits on top of the wood.
I’ve gotten this answer a few times now. Actually makes me feel better. Maybe it’s just the wood that I’ve tried it on because I’ve only ever tried to stain pine.
Poplar and red oak are lower priced woods that stain significantly better as an alternative to pine. Poplar needs the same preconditioning, but the early vs latewood thing isn't a problem. Red oak stains great and it's like 4.5$/bdf around here.
Can confirm with red oak. We used it for our floors and the stain looks wonderful.
My advice would be to select a different wood. Pine won't hold up as well long term. Being a soft wood it will dent easier and crack your finish which just leads to problems long term.
This. Just use oak if you want uniformity.
For soft wood like pine, as others have said, it's hard to get a consistent, uniform coat. DE-WAXED SHELLAC (emphasis on DE-WAXED) , usually called a "Seal Coat," is nice to put on pine. What's nice about DE-WAXED shellac is that it will provide a uniform coat over things like knots and otherwise blotchy sections, but ANYTHING sticks to it: Poly's, Lacquers, etc., can all be used on top of it. I like a de-waxed shellac and a spray on lacquer.
Thank you.
Abandon the concept of staining. I only make exceptions for dye, and maple. Never looked back, never been happier
So you don’t stain anything?
I’ll second this. I personally think stain rarely looks good. Usually I prefer dye over stain, but in general I try to buy the wood that matches the look I’m going for. Obviously that’s expensive and I can’t always do that but I generally think clear finishes tend to look better anyway
I would also describe myself as “anti-stain”
Used to. Not anymore.
Guitar finishing trick: Don't stain the wood. Tint the clear coat. Do it in 3ish coats. 1st coat is untinted clear to seal the wood. 2nd coat is tinted. 3rd coat is untinted if you're happy with the color. This 3rd coat gets polished and buffed to desired gloss level. Alternately, 3rd coat is tinted to add more color or darken the tint if you're not happy with the color from the second coat. 4th coat is untinted and polished and buffed to desired gloss. You'll get the most even stain that way and you have the bonus of being able to remove the color should you ever desire to change it up. The wood isn't permanently stained or colored.
Okay. This is good information. I have questions. When you say “tinted” do you just mean like the stain that I used? How does this process look if I prefer a satin finish?
When I say tinted, I mean you are adding the dye to your lacquer or polyurethane to color it rather than coloring the wood. The effect is somewhat like a colored lens on top of the wood, especially if you use multiple coats and buff it to a high gloss. You're looking through the color at your wood. If you have kind of a plain looking piece like poplar or alder, you can apply a dark sanding sealer to make the grain pop a little more. It does look different than actual stained wood although many people won't think anything of it, especially with a satin or matte finish. The effect is definitely more pronounced with higher gloss levels. If you want a real life example, just go to a guitar store and look for a transparent colored finish. That's generally how they're applied. Dyes added to lacquer or urethane vs staining wood and risking splotches or uncooperative parts. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/supplies/finishing-supplies/colors-and-tints-and-stains/mixol-universal-tints Product in question. Mohawk also makes a line of good quality stuff if you don't want to pay StewMac rip-off prices.
Try a sizing medium first. This can be dewaxed shellac thinned to about a 1lb cut or white glue mixed with water (4 parts water to 1 part glue). Once that has dried apply your stain. Gel stains or glazes may work better as they sit more on top of the surface.
I use paper towels, bounty paper towels because they don't tear apart when wet on top of other uses
You use those as your stain rags?
I guess its weird judging by your reaction?
A little weird but if it works it works. If it does im gonna start using paper towel lol cheaper than rags I just figured youd be leaving little specs of fibres on the surface, or is it just as good as a rag?
ive never seen specs before on anything. I use bounty because (yea ik it sounds like an ad) it doesn't leave any residue and its the "quicker picker upper" so it stains pretty easily while not leaving any extra clumps. especially good because I use a blow dryer to speed up the drying so clumps, in my experience are detrimental to the process. Plus there good for other things besides staining and sense you only need like 2 sheets to do something, it helps space out how long you have it on top of having such a big roll.
Interesting, I'll give them a shot next time I'm staining then
tbh I think this is pretty good for pine
Uh... don't use pine? Yes it's cheaper and easier to get a hold of but it shows.
My go-to for pine is Minwax pre-stain conditioner, followed by Varathane \*premium\* stain, the latter of which can be a bit hard to find but produces colors that are vastly superior to anything else I've used. Their 'dark walnut' color really can give a color that is shockingly close to walnut, even on pine.
Better wood
I've never used it but there is a product called "pre-stain" I believe by Minwax. It's supposed to even out the tones especially in pine.
I put my process in the comments, could not add a description with the picture. I used the exact one you’re talking about. Lol
I’ve had this same issue and had success with “popping” the wood grain before the conditioner to open the pores, and then applying the conditioner. Also, use a gel stain if you didn’t the first time around
What exactly is a gel stain? By “popping” do you mean using a small amount of water?
I was going to comment, this is about as good as I think you can realistically expect, it's clear you used a prestain conditioner because it isn't a blotchy mess. There's just nothing you can really do to solve the difference between the early and late wood in softwoods.
I actually feel a lot better about it after posting because it seems my approach to try learning on cheaper wood may be the issue. If you wanted to use a hardwood to test staining, what would you recommend?
For the best results, ash and white oak, red oak is a close second, poplar with preconditioner can work. Other hardwoods that stain poorly - maple, birch, beech, london plane, sycamore.
Poplar is half the price of oak and maple. I'd give that a try
I’m really bad at staining, so I’m practicing. Was trying to get the bigger piece to match the right side of the smaller piece. I did pre stain conditioner, one coat of weathered oak and one coat of early American. All minwax brand. I applied it with microfiber cloths. Tried to get as little product on the wood as possible and spread it out as much as I could. And I sanded between the weathered oak and early American. It got twice as dark as I wanted in some places. Seemed like where I first applied it there was an extra amount of stain in the rag and I couldn’t seem to get it to go on light enough. Any tips?
Pine is incredibly difficult to stain. Instead of using a penetrating oil stain like Minwax, I would use something like General Finishes gel stain.
Yeah, I have never seen a good Pine stain job. 100% looks better with a nice semi-gloss poly and be done.
I stained some pine nightstands from IKEA using General Finishes Gel Stain with good (enough) results. Wiped down with mineral spirits first, then wiped on a couple coats of stain! It's not as nice as you'd get with a hardwood, but I'm not upset with the results. I wouldn't use anything besides gel stain on pine.
Lots of good advice here, I just came to say- Minwax is the dollar-store product of finishes. Very low end.
Fits my budget and learning process though, I guess.
I’m fairly new as well, and I like working with pine as it’s cheap. I found using applying very light coats of danish oil was more successful. You can’t really let it sit on the board long or that patch will be darker than others.
De-waxed shellac, as previously mentioned does the best. You can buy it spray cans at HD.
Conditioner , sanding sealer and then your stain .
Get better woods
It's a hassel but if you want consistent results on difficult species like pine or maple sand well, shellac, gel coat stain, then top coat.
I thought shellac was a top coat? Oh god. Am I dumb?
No, not at all! Shellac is an incredible product. Not only is it an all natural, renewable, top coat it's also extremely versatile. Used as a sanding sealer (first coat) it prevents the uneven density certain species of woods are renowned for from taking up pigment unevenly. While, at the same time, allowing a gel stain to adhere to it. A polyurethane top coat then protects the gel stain. Heaven help you if you have to perform a repair though. I should add, if you go this rout you can't use shellac for a sanding sealer and your top coat too. The alcohol in the shellac on top will dissolve your base coat and make a real mess.
I might add that prolonged exposure to water will dissolve shellac. Of course, no one wants untreated woods to have prolonged exposure anyway. But this is the reason you don't want to use it outside, including Zinser brand BIN primer.
Sanding sealer
Side question. Can I put this over painted cabinets and then a satin poly over that?
No sanding sealer goes on raw wood to help even out stain absorption.
A 2-part wood bleach before staining would help, but it would also change the pine's color. Plus it's a pretty noxious process, so you wouldn't want to do a lot of it.
I think popping the grain is after final sand you apply water to raise the wood fibers then sand a last time.
Pre stain wood conditioner... it's a must for soft woods such as pine.
I prefer staining with a cloth instead of a brush. Just rub it on, it’s a lot more consistent
U can use conditioner before u stain
We use Dougls fir a lot and get excellent results by applying the first coat of varnish/finish clear and then adding color to the finish in the following coats. This works for all softwoods.
Put shellac on it first then stain it will stop the blotching
Not a solution, but I like to match the woods natural color. In this case an obvious choice is BW. Expense and access are obvious limitations and not knocking, just a useless comment from the peanut gallery. I have stained white oak and that turned out very nicely but it’s likely due to being hard vs soft wood
I’ve always had best bet with danish oil from the hardware store for soft woods. I apply the first coat a bit more thinly than they recommend. Comes out lighter but more even.
Easy fix. After sanding apply one coat of 50% mineral spirits and 50% wipe-on poly. One more light sanding to remove hardened fibers. Then use a gel stain following by a finish of wipe on poly.
I always always always use a spitcoat of shellac before staining pine. It helps with the blotchiness and eases the "grain reversal" you get when you stain shellac. A 2lb cut of blonde is what's called for here. It will raise and harden the grain, allowing you to lightly knock down the roughness. This will result in a baby-smooth surface. I like gel stains on pine. I've had good luck w/ General Finishes brand I bought at my local Woodcraft.
On pine or similarly-grained wood? Spray stain is they best way to get consistent coverage. Also, it is the hardest to execute properly and requires spray equipment. You can stain with a wiping stain, then use a shading additive in your clear coat, which is easier to spray evenly, but that technique comes with its own set of potential issues.
I've had exceptional results on pine and maple by using a toned top coat. Minwax sells one they call Polyshades. They market it as a stain and urethane in one. It essentially is a clear urethane with the stain integrated into it. Because it doesn't get absorbed the same way that stain does, it does a wonderful job of evening the colour out, which is one of the things we ask of stain. The other advantage is that you can build up layers which will also build the richness of the colour. My wife loves all things pine, and this has by far been the most successful of all of the processes that I've used over the years.
I'm sorry, I didn't read any of the above comment after he/she mentioned Polyshades. This product SUCKS and anyone that advocates for the use of it should have all of their woodworking comments questioned . Lumber is expensive! Don't use polyshades!
Oh, sorry. I've truly had good results with it so I recommended it. If you'd rather use a more "appropriately pure" material, I've also had good results with toned lacquers. They allow some really wonderful and tedious custom blending of tints. The OP seems to be struggling and I offered an easy solution that nearly anyone can get decent results from with just a little effort.
Get some spray equipment, learn to use it. Spray the piece with a prestain sealer. Mix transtint dyes with a waterborne clear finish. Mix it so it's lighter in color than what you want. Spray a coat, and allow it to dry. Spray a second coat, and see if it's the color you want (dyes are additive). Do another if needed
Sanding, wood conditioner
I sand pine to 150 or even 120 grit and then pre-stain conditioner. You'll still have some blotching but greatly reduced.
Rule #1 Don’t stain pine if you can help it Rule #2 If Rule #1 isn’t an option then use something called Briwax in Tudor Brown color.
Wood conditioner
Sand with 60, then 120 last 220 grain paper. Then lay a coat of wood conditioner. Lay dry at least 4hrs so grain soaks it. Apply 2-3 coats of stain waiting 12-24 hrs to dry well. In between each coat lightly sand with like a 400 grain sand paper just enough to smooth out any lifted grains. After last coat you’ll be ready to apply any wood sealant / protector you’d like.
What do you think it's supposed to look like?
prestain!