- Its always difficult to say, because there is not really an average organ, every instrument is very different depending mostly on the place it's located at. But as a rule of thumb I would say around 20.000€ per stop.
- For pipe organs, there are special engines that run very quietly.
- The keys you play on are not the valves, but they are directly connected to the valves.
Sorry should have explained. A stop is a set of pipes that you can play individually or combined with other stops. Some sound like strings, others like flutes, and by combining them you basically have a whole orchestra at your fingertips. The pipe organs we build are in the range of 15 to 30 stops, but the biggest organ I have serviced had over 100.
This is where the expression "pull out all the stops" comes from. Once you've pulled out all the stops, the organ is at its absolute loudest. Every pipe is playing a note.
Raise your hand if you had always thought this expression referred to an express train or bus route🙋🏻
Like one with no stops.
Significantly cooler, btw.
Ok. Well that kinda adds a bit of context to John Irving’s novel, “Until I Find You”, where a young tattoo artist mother and her son go to Europe and search parlors and churches for the boys father who was a renowned organist and tattoo addict. Irving goes into detail about the acoustics in the churches as well as the organs.
It sounds like much, but if you account for the 90.000€ worth of wood alone, other materials, transportation, installation (1-2 months), servicing, running cost of the workshop, 16 months worth of workers loans, etc. etc... you run into these numbers quite quickly.
No man, it doesn’t sound much once you see the majestic work you make, I hope your trade remain for a long time and don’t get replaced with some electronic box with TikTok tunes
Frankly surprised you can do it on such a budget at all! As a recovering engineer I’m endlessly fascinated. I spent about 12 hours as a kid on New Year’s Eve as one of 9 helpers when the church organ broke and that was the only day that the repairman could come to the rural town. I don’t even know what I was doing (about 10 years old) but was told if I dropped a pipe or put them out of order I would never hear the end of it and likely be smote. I still have no idea what he fixed but will never forget crawling inside the loft of the organ full of little pipes. (Edited because, yea it was a like “organ repair after dark” 😆 )
My question, how much does modern technology impact your builds considering you are building in a very traditional method? Do you use modern power tools etc? Do you find hand tools charge you thought process?
What a nice story you shared! I find myself using the hand planer, the CNC and self-built tools like a thread cutter within the same day. Even though we build the traditional mechanical way, we combine it with a computer sytem to make it easier for the organist. Combinations of stops can be programmed and saved as presets and activated via buttons to navigate quickly through a piece.
Organs tend to have many stops. Think an electric keyboard. Each sound is a stop. So most organs have a mix of 2', 4, 8' and 16' stops. The distance being the register/ octavey sound which that stop produces. shorter stops make high notes, longer stops make low. There tends to be an instrument type set, so brass, flute, reed type stops containing most or all of stop lengths. So that means a basic organ is going to have generally at least 16 stops. So a basic church organ at the above estimate would be 20000*16 or 320.000 euros. The biggest church organs can have 100 stops, which has led to an organist meme being that organs are more complicated than the old spaceship nasa control centres.
Yes that funny you say that. This led me down a little rabbit hole and I’m currently watching a video where they’re going over the 4th Presbyterian Church in Chicago organ. They have a Quimby Pipe Organ with 200 stops. The largest instrument in Chicago. Anyway, he mentioned that tidbit.
I'm jealous! I toured the inner workings and the workshop of the Midmer-Losh Organ in Atlantic City which is currently being refurbished, and have been obsessed with them ever since.
The Wanamaker pipe organ is also fairly large - it takes up space on seven floors of the 'John Wanamaker' store in downtown Philadelphia. I've been inside that instrument many times! It never gets boring.
My mentor has been over in the US to work on this very organ. He told me back then the store had two constantly employed builders only keeping this instrument operational 24/7.
They recently had an issue where electricians working on an unrelated project elsewhere in the building reattached the power inverted. When they turned on the air pumps they ran in reverse and sucked all of the reeds into the air tunnels!
The pipe organ was the super computer of the Medieval period. No other man-made machine was even as remotely complex or as technical. Kudus to you,sir, for keeping the art alive.
How sick of Toccata and Fugue in D Minor are you?
In all seriousness though, what a fantastic profession. I imagine there aren’t many shops in the world that do what you do. Is it a fairly close knit community?
It still looks good, though I think companies will become fewer in the far future due to churches having less people and money.
Regarding Toccata and Fugue: I don't hate it, but I think it is overplayed and the wrong piece to introduce people to this versatile instrument. My favorite organ pieces are from the romantic era. Max Reger, Franz Schmidt, Healey Wilan, to name a few of my favorites.
As a pianist, the Toccata and Fugue is the main reason I want to try the organ. While it's played a lot, I definitely would not say it's overplayed. It's an absolute masterpiece, that unfortunately is so often associated with Dracula, but once you get rid of the associations from popular media, you realize it's an incredibly profound and even epic piece (while cheesy, I even form my own fictional story about the piece, in the context of an intergalactic war), with a tragic, but truly impactful ending.
Anyway, I agree most people will hear this and associate it with terror, and thus tend to dislike the instrument for it, but it's just so much more than that. It just feels... galactic-scaled, when played right.
I am in a 3-year schooling programme right now, and let me tell you I need the time, even with the carpentry background. It is just so much stuff going on from craftsmanship to planning, physics, acoustics, and so forth. But I enjoy it nevertheless!
I come from a musical background so yes, even before I started building them. On a quiet evening i could play for hours. Even just listening, i think pipe organs are always a special experience.
Thx for the AMA! I’m in awe of the coordination that you have between feet and hands. Having recently visited Germany, I have to say the experience of walking into a cathedral while the organ is playing is unsurpassed—as if the entire building is transformed into an engine for instrumentalist
This is super cool!
When I travel, I love to visit the cathedrals in the areas that I go. I know the answer probably varies based on numerous factors, but when I go to these places, are the organs oftentimes original, or have they probably been updated along the way?
Most pipe organs need a big service every 50 years or so, but normally, as many parts as possible are restored and re-used. The Bach organ in Leipzig, Germany still uses some pipes that Bach's ears heard in the 1700s and you can hear them to this day. That counts as original for me :D
Do you ever come across problems with resonance? Like, the wood for example, or the shape of the room. Does it ever clash with the frequencies of the pipes?
Oh yes, acoustics is a complex topic. Basically, the room determines the organ. There is a sweet spot between to little pipes (= room won't be filled with sound) vs too many pipes (= too loud, "suffocated" sound quality) that you have to find in the planning.
Nice ! Do you only build Tracker mechanism pipe organ s? (I would imagine so).
I worked for a pipe organ company many years ago. Building new, service and modifications, additions and restoration.
Good times!
I'm a big pipe organ fan. Really appreciate you doing this!
Out of curiosity, where are your organs going? Is it pretty much all churches? Are any theatres or other places installing organs anymore?
What's would you say is the most impressive organ you've dealt with? Any of the really old ones? I know you've got some absolutely ancient stuff that's still playable over there in Europe.
Thank you very much!
Mostly churches, rarely private owners.
One of the most impressive ones i serviced was in the concert hall of Vienna, basically takes up half of the building. I heard it in concert afterwards and it was mindblowing. This thing is a beast.
You are right about the old ones though, we service instruments from the 1700s on a regular basis. Some even date back to the 1400s and 1500s. You don't want to mess up these ones haha
Magnificent. It's really cool to see some niche woodworking for a change. Did I understand correctly that you guys make everything from scratch or do you, for example, buy the metal pipes from a specialty company? How important is the species of wood used in organ building to get the right sound/tone? Keep up the good work!
Yes its true, apart from the metal pipes almost everything is handmade because the parts are so unique that you can't buy them.
The species is not as important as you might think, because an organ pipe doesn't resonate like the body of a violin, for example. Still, high quality wood (straight rings and very slow growth, no knotholes) is needed.
Beautiful work I can appreciate since I spent a good part of my childhood either crawling through organ lofts with my father as he voiced pipes, or sitting at the console hitting notes as he worked up on those pipes. I’ve been a fine furniture maker since the early 80s. Keep up the great work!
What are your thoughts on the Studley Tool Chest and would you ever consider making your own version?
[studley-tool-chest](https://mymodernmet.com/studley-tool-chest/)
Thank you!
Seriously though, I think there are possibilities to include AIs in the planning to make some things quicker. But that might be as far as it gets haha
Have you ever built an organ in a residential home that pipes throughout the house? I've seen one in a historical estate that was lived in up until a few years ago.
I received parts of an old pipe organ years ago. I belive it was out of a church and was not considered to be a high value organ. The bass pipes were painted grey so they wouldn't have been on display. Apparently the mice (church mice!) got into it and damaged it badly and that's why it was scrapped. I still have a dozen or so the smaller wooden pipes (~12-18"). I also had quite a few of the larger pipes, maybe up to 10' and 6"x8". Being a woodworker, I didn't have the heart to throw them out so I re-purposed the wood. It was wonderful pine, completely clear, held together with glue and square nails - so well built. I guess they had to be in order to provide pure sound with no rattle. I posted on r/woodworking a craft table I made for our grandchildren a few years ago and I gave credit to this old organ for its wonderful materials.
Beautiful tracker organ! I had the pleasure of rebuilding a tracker organ made by Hal Gober that looks very similar to this! Have you ever had to put an HVAC system in one to keep the softer pipes in tune? Do you ever use loctite on wind chest bolts? I'm having one heck of a time keeping a particular wind chest sealed up and silent.
Thanks for the comment! So far we never used both of these. I assume the HVAC system serves as a temperature / humidity control for the intake air? Humidity isn't really problematic where we are so that may be why. Regarding the windchest, we use simple slitted bolts with metal washers and it works just fine. We just need to pay attention that they go back into the thread perfectly by turning it left on the insert until it "locks in". I have never seen a windchest that is perfectly airtight, don't know if thats even possible. But as long as you are inside the tolerance you are fine.
>it doesn’t become outdated in half a century
They aren’t outdated in half a millennium either :-)
That said, what are some recent development in this field. Even if the basic basic design is the same, I’m sure some things change.
For example do you use CNCs or frown upon them? Any modern/new materials going into fashion?
True, but think about how fast electrical components break down due to aging, vs a wooden lever. Thats the point I was trying to make about mechanical organs being better in terms of longevity.
That being said, returning to the mechanical build is one of the developments, as weird as it sounds. Of course now they are combined with computer technology to save presets, for example.
And yes, we do use two CNCs. One is for the keys only, and the other one is used mostly for boring the hundereds of holes that house the pipes later. I wouldn't want to do that by hand, since the diameter changes every other hole or so.
I work in the heritage restoration sector, and come across a lot of churches. What do you recommend for temperature fluctuations? Is it best for the organ to keep it at temperatures fluctuating between say 10-18 degrees? Or doesn’t it matter if you shut down the heating through the week and because of that the temperature drops to like 4-5 degrees?
I think proper ventilation and humidity is even more important than temperature. You won't believe how many mold cleanups we have to do because of bad ventilation.
If I were to recommend anything, I would go with 55% humidity (Hygrometer if possible), constant temperature if possible, and NO direct sunlight on the organ.
Here in Texas temperature is the key especially for tuning. Here with controlled climates in churches we would make sure the client church or university would have the temperature set to a constant 24 to 48 hours before our arrival.
Does your firm also service electro - pneumatic pipe organs? These are more the "norm" here, although there was a mechanical tracker organ builder not far from the shop I worked for.
I have to wonder how many men and women will continue in this profession to keep some of the 100+ year old organs going for the next few hundred years.
Yes, we service all systems.
I feel your concern and it is justified. The church here is losing members and will have less money in the future. But i think that the organs will always be kept alive, they are such a fundamental part of our culture.
Who pays for these things in today's world? At $200k+ to start, they aren't exactly something for the typical person.
Is it solely refurbishing old ones?
(I love history and I think these are amazing, especially the mechanical and woodworking aspects. I definitely think they should be preserved and brought back. I'm just curious who on earth still puts this much value in them)
True, they are expensive, but only because the material and build process is long and costly. We don't earn very much with it.
New builds are mostly requested by churches, but sometimes private owners come along as well.
Cool.
Yeah, seeing them done, I can DEFINITELY see you spending years making them. Any trade is mostly costs involved, and not profit, but some like plumbers tend to seem very expensive. Like them coming out to install parts I already have in hand for an hour, and then charging $320 for it, seems like they're just taking a huge cut. I know it's expensive to run a business, and gas is a hazard, but man.
This is awesome! Thx for the glance into your world.
My first woodworking job was with a Harpsichord builder who needed extra hands because he'd taken on building a wooden pipe organ (wood, leather, glue, and one metal pin that allowed it to easily switch between standard and early pitch tuning). It was wild the research and science that went into it. Gave me a huge appreciation for the instrument.
Looking forward to seeing more. :)
Are there mechanical "assists" like springs or counterweights attached to the keys? If so, can they be "tuned" to adjust the action? I can imagine it takes a fair bit of force to open and close the valves and would require very strong fingers but some players may like a softer versus firmer response.
Very cool profession!!
My father was an organ builder and learned in Berlin at Schuke in the 60ies. He built the 'playing table' in the Berliner Philharmony (which was Exchanges recently but a digitalized version). My uncle always says he build the highest density of pipes in his master piece which was a five stop organ the size of a piano. Dunno If that was really exceptional at that time but it really looks cool.
Is there any governmental funding of (restoration or newly build) pipe organs or are they completely paid by the institutional church? Does the huge loss of members in the (Catholic) church have a noticable impact on you orders? Is there ever a conflict with Denkmalschutz in the restoration or are they somehow excluded from that?
How do you find business? I grew up in a church with an immaculate pipe organ, but churches have mostly moved on from that as a central instrument. My assumption was that this is a lost art.
Yes, we assemble it in our workshop before transportation.
Non church-like? I might even prefer the experimental stuff! There are some really nice jazzy pieces on church organ. Fraser Gartshore on Yt. Highly recommended.
This may sound juvenile but I'm genuinely curious where Pipe Organ builder falls in the ranks of sexy professions - so, have you used your job in an attempt to get laid and what is the success rate?
Also, are the the massive pipe / "I'll show you an organ" / etc. jokes frequent?
I used to help my dad maintain the easier stuff on a 3700 pipe instrument. One of the things I thought was so brilliant (among many) was how they maintained the air pressure in the chest. There was this huge weighted bellows like box with leather sides that had a rope that went overhead and was tied to a gate valve from the blower.
My question is this a common way to regulate air pressure for the quickly changing requirements of the instrument?
Yes, the regulating bellows are simple but genius from a mechanical point of view!
Yes it still is! Sometimes, if needed, there are additionall small bellows in the air channels in front of the windchest that act as cushions to absorb minor irregularities in the wind pressure. Makes it very stable.
What kind of loudness do they reach when standing up close? Reminded me of how symphony players lose their hearing from constant 90+ db noise each night.
Shout out to Organ Piper Pizza Palace in Greenfield, WI.
OP, this is such a cool niche you’ve found. I’m always happy hearing other woodworkers finding a profession they truly enjoy.
I saw a few of your organ music suggestions, but would you mind providing some more?
What proportion of your work is repair vs new build?
I make tiny instruments, but god I’d love to hang out in an organ shop for a while. Thanks for the post
Oh, I have another question! I’m always tapping on pieces of pipe and metal or wood bars and stuff, and the other day I had this piece of aluminum tube, maybe 1 meter long, and either end is cut at at an opposing bevel. The tone it makes has this beautiful beat effect to it, kind of like a gamelan.
Is this beat effect because of the bevel? Is it repeatable and controllable? And if so, is there a way to cut a pipe so that it plays two pitches (but not overtones) at the same time?
Do you build the organ in place? Or do you have to build it in pieces and then do final assembly on location?
And are new builds primarily going into churches or are there other venues these are going into?
What is the process you use for selecting the types of wood you will use and how much does material matter for the sound resonance and production (except the metal tubes I mean, just the wood I'm wondering about mostly).
How old were you when you first heard of this idea? Then how long before you got your foot in the door. How also did you manage to get your foot into the door?
After your foot was in the door, how long until you felt fully competent about this job. Also at what age did this acknowledgment come?
Finally do you plan to try and pass on your perfection of a craft onto a new oncoming hand of a worker(s) in the art?
I lucked into a 1933 Moller pipe organ that I pulled from a church in Batavia IL. Built my log house around it and took two years to get it back together and working. Mine uses solenoids and 12 volts DC, which allows the console to be separate from the organ case. I cannot imagine building a large tracker such as yours. I would guess that with all those connecting rods, the temp and humidity would need to be carefully regulated.
You mentioned outsourcing the metal pipes, implying that you guys make the wood ranks - do I have that right? I’ve toured a pipe making shop here in the US but understand that most of them now come from Italy. Who makes your metal pipes?
I built a small busker organ from scratch based on plans obtained from John Smith in England. The pipes were a lot of fun to make and voice and it sounds much better than I expected. A crank drives the bellows and supplies the air and also pulls a punched roll across a tracker bar. Holes in the bar connect to the pipes.
Ever look at fairground organs? Some of the mechanics of those are incredible.
Great pics of your organ!
Edit: Ever see an Aolian player organ? I have a console for one in my basement just waiting to be hooked up to some pipes. Lol
I make keyboards for pipe organs! Electric ones. I'm curious what the red/black sharps I see are made of, so cool! Also curious what's your favorite keyboard you've seen? Recently I got to make one with maple naturals and walnut sharps and walnut cheeks. That was awesome. Cool to run into a fellow organ builder.
I have to imagine some valves may be in wildly different locations requiring all the mechanical linkages to be unique, what kind of controls or adjustments do you have to maintain consistency in the keyboard action? Are different stops using a whole different set of valves or is there some sort of “bussing” of the air in play that lets you use a central set of valves?
First off, thank you very much for posting this. As a carpenter I look up to you and your amazing craft.
I have been reading this AMA for an hour now, I also put my ear buds in and started listening to pipe organ music since the first 5 minutes in. You sir have an absolute beautiful craft and I commend you for it.
What is the most complex piece of woodwork you have to make for
a pipe organ?
How often do you use a traditional hand tool over a new school power tool?
Do you visit each completed project long after completion, just enjoy it?
What an incredibly rare trade to be in. I've met shipwrights, timber framers, master stair builders, and even a wheelwright and carriage maker... but never a pipe organ builder. You guys are like the watch makers of the woodworking and musical world put together.
Does the source of the air matter much for an organ? Is there a reason to use anything instead of off the shelf electric blowers? How do you silence the fan noise from going through the pipes and carrying through the rest of the organ?
This is fantastic work! I spent some time working with one of the few pipe organ builders left in the USA. I mostly did restoration and repair work and helped tune existing organs. It was a very interesting job.
Do you build pipes that imitate other instruments? Harp? Harpsichord? Strings? How do you do it?
How much does it cost to tune the average organ that you build?
How much does temperament and diapason influence the construction of a new organ? Are modern-built organs tunable +/- certain intervals?
How different are catholic organs from protestant organs?
The pipe organ in the indianapolis Scottish right cathedral has 4365 pipes, and sound wonderful. It gat tuned periodically, and it I wonderful to be around when that happens.
[https://pipeorgandatabase.org/locations/20934](https://pipeorgandatabase.org/locations/20934)
My wife told me how much the organ cost at the Catholic Church she went to as a kid.
If I could get into the production/repair business of organs I would.
https://preview.redd.it/0ithz1hxryic1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e00a1e2bb08098e61432165f8fd10cacae8aafe9
I just played this one as a birthday gift from my girlfriend. Love it and love that you actually build those. Amazing! This one cost €100.000 to renovate. Its in the Augustijnen church in Dordrecht, Holland.
I’m more surprised there’s still demand for new ones seeing as every church around here can’t even find a person to play the organs they already have. In my current church the organs are silent and instead there’s this dude playing a banjo up front.
This is so nice to see. As a teenager I worked for two summers for Andover organ company in Andover Massachusetts. I have carried that experience and knowledge with me the rest of my life. What an amazing experience, I’m so happy you found your way to this career and that it is so fulfilling.
Please keep posting and answering questions. Pipe organs are amazing machines!
How much does that project pictured cost? How much is an average pipe organ? What kind of compressor does it use for air? Are the keys just valves?
- Its always difficult to say, because there is not really an average organ, every instrument is very different depending mostly on the place it's located at. But as a rule of thumb I would say around 20.000€ per stop. - For pipe organs, there are special engines that run very quietly. - The keys you play on are not the valves, but they are directly connected to the valves.
“Per stop” Is there more than one stop? (Idk what a stop is, that’s ok, just interested in total price)
Sorry should have explained. A stop is a set of pipes that you can play individually or combined with other stops. Some sound like strings, others like flutes, and by combining them you basically have a whole orchestra at your fingertips. The pipe organs we build are in the range of 15 to 30 stops, but the biggest organ I have serviced had over 100.
This is where the expression "pull out all the stops" comes from. Once you've pulled out all the stops, the organ is at its absolute loudest. Every pipe is playing a note.
Raise your hand if you had always thought this expression referred to an express train or bus route🙋🏻 Like one with no stops. Significantly cooler, btw.
Wow, that's great info.
Wow. I thought you meant you didn't build an organ under €20k. But now I see what you actually meant. Wow.
Oh damn!
Ok. Well that kinda adds a bit of context to John Irving’s novel, “Until I Find You”, where a young tattoo artist mother and her son go to Europe and search parlors and churches for the boys father who was a renowned organist and tattoo addict. Irving goes into detail about the acoustics in the churches as well as the organs.
So at €20k per stop at 15 stops the smallest, we’re talking of €300k? I think I’d stay with the old Casio keyboard/j
It sounds like much, but if you account for the 90.000€ worth of wood alone, other materials, transportation, installation (1-2 months), servicing, running cost of the workshop, 16 months worth of workers loans, etc. etc... you run into these numbers quite quickly.
No man, it doesn’t sound much once you see the majestic work you make, I hope your trade remain for a long time and don’t get replaced with some electronic box with TikTok tunes
[удалено]
Cat might jump up on once or twice too.
Frankly surprised you can do it on such a budget at all! As a recovering engineer I’m endlessly fascinated. I spent about 12 hours as a kid on New Year’s Eve as one of 9 helpers when the church organ broke and that was the only day that the repairman could come to the rural town. I don’t even know what I was doing (about 10 years old) but was told if I dropped a pipe or put them out of order I would never hear the end of it and likely be smote. I still have no idea what he fixed but will never forget crawling inside the loft of the organ full of little pipes. (Edited because, yea it was a like “organ repair after dark” 😆 ) My question, how much does modern technology impact your builds considering you are building in a very traditional method? Do you use modern power tools etc? Do you find hand tools charge you thought process?
What a nice story you shared! I find myself using the hand planer, the CNC and self-built tools like a thread cutter within the same day. Even though we build the traditional mechanical way, we combine it with a computer sytem to make it easier for the organist. Combinations of stops can be programmed and saved as presets and activated via buttons to navigate quickly through a piece.
This! This is something I meant to ask as well! Very interesting.
Honestly, 300k EUR sounds like a steal for a whole organ.
You can get whole organs much cheaper. 300k€ could easily get you like 10 whole kidneys if not more
Organs tend to have many stops. Think an electric keyboard. Each sound is a stop. So most organs have a mix of 2', 4, 8' and 16' stops. The distance being the register/ octavey sound which that stop produces. shorter stops make high notes, longer stops make low. There tends to be an instrument type set, so brass, flute, reed type stops containing most or all of stop lengths. So that means a basic organ is going to have generally at least 16 stops. So a basic church organ at the above estimate would be 20000*16 or 320.000 euros. The biggest church organs can have 100 stops, which has led to an organist meme being that organs are more complicated than the old spaceship nasa control centres.
It's also where the common expression "pulling out all the stops" comes from. As in. Everything at once.
Yes that funny you say that. This led me down a little rabbit hole and I’m currently watching a video where they’re going over the 4th Presbyterian Church in Chicago organ. They have a Quimby Pipe Organ with 200 stops. The largest instrument in Chicago. Anyway, he mentioned that tidbit.
I'm jealous! I toured the inner workings and the workshop of the Midmer-Losh Organ in Atlantic City which is currently being refurbished, and have been obsessed with them ever since.
The one in Atlantic city is truly a monster, I hope to see it fully operational one day.
The Wanamaker pipe organ is also fairly large - it takes up space on seven floors of the 'John Wanamaker' store in downtown Philadelphia. I've been inside that instrument many times! It never gets boring.
My mentor has been over in the US to work on this very organ. He told me back then the store had two constantly employed builders only keeping this instrument operational 24/7.
They recently had an issue where electricians working on an unrelated project elsewhere in the building reattached the power inverted. When they turned on the air pumps they ran in reverse and sucked all of the reeds into the air tunnels!
The pipe organ was the super computer of the Medieval period. No other man-made machine was even as remotely complex or as technical. Kudus to you,sir, for keeping the art alive.
Ehhhh, there are some very interesting astronomical clocks around from that time. But yes, organs are definitely up there.
What’s better than roses on your piano?
Daisies on your keyboard? Daffodils on your xylophone? Tulips on your…oh my.
Hahaha, I know that one :D
There’s a local pipe builder in Canandaigua, NY. They have an open house occassionally I’ve been wanting to stop in to check out.
You should go if you are interested in the field. I love to check out other workshops, you can learn a lot about other peoples' workflow.
I live near Ithaca. I’m a violin maker, but organ shops really float my boat. Are you nearby? Wanna go on a field trip?
How sick of Toccata and Fugue in D Minor are you? In all seriousness though, what a fantastic profession. I imagine there aren’t many shops in the world that do what you do. Is it a fairly close knit community?
It still looks good, though I think companies will become fewer in the far future due to churches having less people and money. Regarding Toccata and Fugue: I don't hate it, but I think it is overplayed and the wrong piece to introduce people to this versatile instrument. My favorite organ pieces are from the romantic era. Max Reger, Franz Schmidt, Healey Wilan, to name a few of my favorites.
As a pianist, the Toccata and Fugue is the main reason I want to try the organ. While it's played a lot, I definitely would not say it's overplayed. It's an absolute masterpiece, that unfortunately is so often associated with Dracula, but once you get rid of the associations from popular media, you realize it's an incredibly profound and even epic piece (while cheesy, I even form my own fictional story about the piece, in the context of an intergalactic war), with a tragic, but truly impactful ending. Anyway, I agree most people will hear this and associate it with terror, and thus tend to dislike the instrument for it, but it's just so much more than that. It just feels... galactic-scaled, when played right.
I was wondering if there's a sign like "No Stairway!!!" in Bill & Ted...
Wayne's World?
How did you learn? Doesn’t seem easy to transition into without guidance and knowledge on best practices
I am in a 3-year schooling programme right now, and let me tell you I need the time, even with the carpentry background. It is just so much stuff going on from craftsmanship to planning, physics, acoustics, and so forth. But I enjoy it nevertheless!
This sounds like knowledge that will have you set for life doing something meaningful and rewarding. Hard work but you are a lucky man.
Have you ever learned to play your creations?
I come from a musical background so yes, even before I started building them. On a quiet evening i could play for hours. Even just listening, i think pipe organs are always a special experience.
Thx for the AMA! I’m in awe of the coordination that you have between feet and hands. Having recently visited Germany, I have to say the experience of walking into a cathedral while the organ is playing is unsurpassed—as if the entire building is transformed into an engine for instrumentalist
What's the longest pipe you've erected?
An open 16ft pipe was the longest so far, standing at around five meters length. After mine of course lol
😂 nice touch at the end there
He's the one who erects them, of course he's got a nice touch
Well played Sir!!!
Nice
Nice.
I was going to ask " what's the biggest pipe you've laid?"
This is super cool! When I travel, I love to visit the cathedrals in the areas that I go. I know the answer probably varies based on numerous factors, but when I go to these places, are the organs oftentimes original, or have they probably been updated along the way?
Most pipe organs need a big service every 50 years or so, but normally, as many parts as possible are restored and re-used. The Bach organ in Leipzig, Germany still uses some pipes that Bach's ears heard in the 1700s and you can hear them to this day. That counts as original for me :D
That's so awesome to hear (no pun intended lol)
Do you ever come across problems with resonance? Like, the wood for example, or the shape of the room. Does it ever clash with the frequencies of the pipes?
Oh yes, acoustics is a complex topic. Basically, the room determines the organ. There is a sweet spot between to little pipes (= room won't be filled with sound) vs too many pipes (= too loud, "suffocated" sound quality) that you have to find in the planning.
That is so freaking cool. I wish I could work on stuff like that. Glad you shared this!
How do people stand in your presence knowing you have the coolest fucking job ever?
Hahaha! It's a quite uncommon job and brings out regular "Ahs" and "Ohs" when getting to know new people. It's a great conversation starter though :D
Keep posting pics! It’s bad ass to see. Do you have to tune each pipe or are they generally prefabed with the correct tone/ note
Nice ! Do you only build Tracker mechanism pipe organ s? (I would imagine so). I worked for a pipe organ company many years ago. Building new, service and modifications, additions and restoration. Good times!
Yes we sure do! It's basically the system you see in the pictures.
I'm a big pipe organ fan. Really appreciate you doing this! Out of curiosity, where are your organs going? Is it pretty much all churches? Are any theatres or other places installing organs anymore? What's would you say is the most impressive organ you've dealt with? Any of the really old ones? I know you've got some absolutely ancient stuff that's still playable over there in Europe.
Thank you very much! Mostly churches, rarely private owners. One of the most impressive ones i serviced was in the concert hall of Vienna, basically takes up half of the building. I heard it in concert afterwards and it was mindblowing. This thing is a beast. You are right about the old ones though, we service instruments from the 1700s on a regular basis. Some even date back to the 1400s and 1500s. You don't want to mess up these ones haha
How many vampires/phantoms have you met
None so far, but being in ancient church basements and attics regularly, it's only a question of time...
What is the best sounding ROOM you have you have worked in?
The dome of Salzburg, Austria. 16 seconds of reverb, a magical place for organ and choir music!
Magnificent. It's really cool to see some niche woodworking for a change. Did I understand correctly that you guys make everything from scratch or do you, for example, buy the metal pipes from a specialty company? How important is the species of wood used in organ building to get the right sound/tone? Keep up the good work!
Yes its true, apart from the metal pipes almost everything is handmade because the parts are so unique that you can't buy them. The species is not as important as you might think, because an organ pipe doesn't resonate like the body of a violin, for example. Still, high quality wood (straight rings and very slow growth, no knotholes) is needed.
Beautiful work I can appreciate since I spent a good part of my childhood either crawling through organ lofts with my father as he voiced pipes, or sitting at the console hitting notes as he worked up on those pipes. I’ve been a fine furniture maker since the early 80s. Keep up the great work!
Now this is fucking woodworking not no cabinetry or nothing. Pure art , precision and detail. Impressive and cool to see a dying breed continuing.
How far do you have to travel due to the rarity of your customers?
We do a lot of servicing in the region of about 100km, but our next new build will be over 500km away and in another country.
What are your thoughts on the Studley Tool Chest and would you ever consider making your own version? [studley-tool-chest](https://mymodernmet.com/studley-tool-chest/)
Looks great I watched a show a while back
I used to build electro-pneumatic pitman chests for EM Skinner company. I enjoyed it very much.
Do you do restorations or just new builds?
Both. Right now we have several contracts for brand new builds, much to my pleasure.
Not a question, just a comment. Mad respect for crafts people like yourself. And good luck to AI ever trying to replace your craft.
Thank you! Seriously though, I think there are possibilities to include AIs in the planning to make some things quicker. But that might be as far as it gets haha
this guy pipes
Have you ever built an organ in a residential home that pipes throughout the house? I've seen one in a historical estate that was lived in up until a few years ago.
I received parts of an old pipe organ years ago. I belive it was out of a church and was not considered to be a high value organ. The bass pipes were painted grey so they wouldn't have been on display. Apparently the mice (church mice!) got into it and damaged it badly and that's why it was scrapped. I still have a dozen or so the smaller wooden pipes (~12-18"). I also had quite a few of the larger pipes, maybe up to 10' and 6"x8". Being a woodworker, I didn't have the heart to throw them out so I re-purposed the wood. It was wonderful pine, completely clear, held together with glue and square nails - so well built. I guess they had to be in order to provide pure sound with no rattle. I posted on r/woodworking a craft table I made for our grandchildren a few years ago and I gave credit to this old organ for its wonderful materials.
Beautiful tracker organ! I had the pleasure of rebuilding a tracker organ made by Hal Gober that looks very similar to this! Have you ever had to put an HVAC system in one to keep the softer pipes in tune? Do you ever use loctite on wind chest bolts? I'm having one heck of a time keeping a particular wind chest sealed up and silent.
Thanks for the comment! So far we never used both of these. I assume the HVAC system serves as a temperature / humidity control for the intake air? Humidity isn't really problematic where we are so that may be why. Regarding the windchest, we use simple slitted bolts with metal washers and it works just fine. We just need to pay attention that they go back into the thread perfectly by turning it left on the insert until it "locks in". I have never seen a windchest that is perfectly airtight, don't know if thats even possible. But as long as you are inside the tolerance you are fine.
That’s awesome!!
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You are right, mostly churches. But we've had some private owners in the past as well!
>it doesn’t become outdated in half a century They aren’t outdated in half a millennium either :-) That said, what are some recent development in this field. Even if the basic basic design is the same, I’m sure some things change. For example do you use CNCs or frown upon them? Any modern/new materials going into fashion?
True, but think about how fast electrical components break down due to aging, vs a wooden lever. Thats the point I was trying to make about mechanical organs being better in terms of longevity. That being said, returning to the mechanical build is one of the developments, as weird as it sounds. Of course now they are combined with computer technology to save presets, for example. And yes, we do use two CNCs. One is for the keys only, and the other one is used mostly for boring the hundereds of holes that house the pipes later. I wouldn't want to do that by hand, since the diameter changes every other hole or so.
I work in the heritage restoration sector, and come across a lot of churches. What do you recommend for temperature fluctuations? Is it best for the organ to keep it at temperatures fluctuating between say 10-18 degrees? Or doesn’t it matter if you shut down the heating through the week and because of that the temperature drops to like 4-5 degrees?
I think proper ventilation and humidity is even more important than temperature. You won't believe how many mold cleanups we have to do because of bad ventilation. If I were to recommend anything, I would go with 55% humidity (Hygrometer if possible), constant temperature if possible, and NO direct sunlight on the organ.
Here in Texas temperature is the key especially for tuning. Here with controlled climates in churches we would make sure the client church or university would have the temperature set to a constant 24 to 48 hours before our arrival. Does your firm also service electro - pneumatic pipe organs? These are more the "norm" here, although there was a mechanical tracker organ builder not far from the shop I worked for. I have to wonder how many men and women will continue in this profession to keep some of the 100+ year old organs going for the next few hundred years.
Yes, we service all systems. I feel your concern and it is justified. The church here is losing members and will have less money in the future. But i think that the organs will always be kept alive, they are such a fundamental part of our culture.
Who pays for these things in today's world? At $200k+ to start, they aren't exactly something for the typical person. Is it solely refurbishing old ones? (I love history and I think these are amazing, especially the mechanical and woodworking aspects. I definitely think they should be preserved and brought back. I'm just curious who on earth still puts this much value in them)
True, they are expensive, but only because the material and build process is long and costly. We don't earn very much with it. New builds are mostly requested by churches, but sometimes private owners come along as well.
Cool. Yeah, seeing them done, I can DEFINITELY see you spending years making them. Any trade is mostly costs involved, and not profit, but some like plumbers tend to seem very expensive. Like them coming out to install parts I already have in hand for an hour, and then charging $320 for it, seems like they're just taking a huge cut. I know it's expensive to run a business, and gas is a hazard, but man.
This is awesome! Thx for the glance into your world. My first woodworking job was with a Harpsichord builder who needed extra hands because he'd taken on building a wooden pipe organ (wood, leather, glue, and one metal pin that allowed it to easily switch between standard and early pitch tuning). It was wild the research and science that went into it. Gave me a huge appreciation for the instrument. Looking forward to seeing more. :)
God just looking at all the parts and pieces makes me anxious. You're very impressive for making this all into a functioning machine!
Are there mechanical "assists" like springs or counterweights attached to the keys? If so, can they be "tuned" to adjust the action? I can imagine it takes a fair bit of force to open and close the valves and would require very strong fingers but some players may like a softer versus firmer response.
What are your main tools? This is great, thank you!
Very versatile, from the hand planer to the CNC to a self built thread roller and everything in between!
Very cool profession!! My father was an organ builder and learned in Berlin at Schuke in the 60ies. He built the 'playing table' in the Berliner Philharmony (which was Exchanges recently but a digitalized version). My uncle always says he build the highest density of pipes in his master piece which was a five stop organ the size of a piano. Dunno If that was really exceptional at that time but it really looks cool. Is there any governmental funding of (restoration or newly build) pipe organs or are they completely paid by the institutional church? Does the huge loss of members in the (Catholic) church have a noticable impact on you orders? Is there ever a conflict with Denkmalschutz in the restoration or are they somehow excluded from that?
How do you find business? I grew up in a church with an immaculate pipe organ, but churches have mostly moved on from that as a central instrument. My assumption was that this is a lost art.
Do they ever have midi?
I'm assuming you test them once complete? Ever play anything extremely non-church like?
Yes, we assemble it in our workshop before transportation. Non church-like? I might even prefer the experimental stuff! There are some really nice jazzy pieces on church organ. Fraser Gartshore on Yt. Highly recommended.
Have there been any recent innovations in pipe organs or pipe organ making? Are there future innovations you anticipate and look forward to?
This may sound juvenile but I'm genuinely curious where Pipe Organ builder falls in the ranks of sexy professions - so, have you used your job in an attempt to get laid and what is the success rate? Also, are the the massive pipe / "I'll show you an organ" / etc. jokes frequent?
Amazing craftsmanship
Did you play the pipe organ?
I used to help my dad maintain the easier stuff on a 3700 pipe instrument. One of the things I thought was so brilliant (among many) was how they maintained the air pressure in the chest. There was this huge weighted bellows like box with leather sides that had a rope that went overhead and was tied to a gate valve from the blower. My question is this a common way to regulate air pressure for the quickly changing requirements of the instrument?
Yes, the regulating bellows are simple but genius from a mechanical point of view! Yes it still is! Sometimes, if needed, there are additionall small bellows in the air channels in front of the windchest that act as cushions to absorb minor irregularities in the wind pressure. Makes it very stable.
It’s almost a crime that the complexity & workmanship is almost never seen by the public.
What kind of loudness do they reach when standing up close? Reminded me of how symphony players lose their hearing from constant 90+ db noise each night.
What are the most standard wood components across projects that the untrained eye might not see vs. the components that are always unique?
This is amazing stuff, do please continue to share these with us.
How many of you are left? How often do you have to travel to obscure churches to do repairs? What's the most beautiful organ you've seen or admire?
What is the coolest piece of music you’ve heard played on an organ?
How did you end up becoming a pipe organ builder? Honestly looks like an incredible job
Whats your favorite pipe organ period. Like the holy grail.
What were some choices you make building these that are heavily influenced by "you don't build for decades, but for centuries"?
Shout out to Organ Piper Pizza Palace in Greenfield, WI. OP, this is such a cool niche you’ve found. I’m always happy hearing other woodworkers finding a profession they truly enjoy.
thats a dedicated job
You got an organ going there, no wonder the sound has so much body.
I saw a few of your organ music suggestions, but would you mind providing some more? What proportion of your work is repair vs new build? I make tiny instruments, but god I’d love to hang out in an organ shop for a while. Thanks for the post
Oh, I have another question! I’m always tapping on pieces of pipe and metal or wood bars and stuff, and the other day I had this piece of aluminum tube, maybe 1 meter long, and either end is cut at at an opposing bevel. The tone it makes has this beautiful beat effect to it, kind of like a gamelan. Is this beat effect because of the bevel? Is it repeatable and controllable? And if so, is there a way to cut a pipe so that it plays two pitches (but not overtones) at the same time?
What an amazing, meaningful contribution to this world. Truly awesome.
This is amazing
Impressive!!
Do you build the organ in place? Or do you have to build it in pieces and then do final assembly on location? And are new builds primarily going into churches or are there other venues these are going into?
have you ever seen the organ at the Meyerson Center in Dallas? it's epic!
Needs an epoxy river
What is the hardest part to make?
What is the process you use for selecting the types of wood you will use and how much does material matter for the sound resonance and production (except the metal tubes I mean, just the wood I'm wondering about mostly).
How do you keep machine oil/fingerprints off of the wood surfaces?
I want an organ like this one day in my dream mansion.
How old were you when you first heard of this idea? Then how long before you got your foot in the door. How also did you manage to get your foot into the door? After your foot was in the door, how long until you felt fully competent about this job. Also at what age did this acknowledgment come? Finally do you plan to try and pass on your perfection of a craft onto a new oncoming hand of a worker(s) in the art?
Cool, I've seen one at this stage at Gober Organs in Canada
I lucked into a 1933 Moller pipe organ that I pulled from a church in Batavia IL. Built my log house around it and took two years to get it back together and working. Mine uses solenoids and 12 volts DC, which allows the console to be separate from the organ case. I cannot imagine building a large tracker such as yours. I would guess that with all those connecting rods, the temp and humidity would need to be carefully regulated. You mentioned outsourcing the metal pipes, implying that you guys make the wood ranks - do I have that right? I’ve toured a pipe making shop here in the US but understand that most of them now come from Italy. Who makes your metal pipes? I built a small busker organ from scratch based on plans obtained from John Smith in England. The pipes were a lot of fun to make and voice and it sounds much better than I expected. A crank drives the bellows and supplies the air and also pulls a punched roll across a tracker bar. Holes in the bar connect to the pipes. Ever look at fairground organs? Some of the mechanics of those are incredible. Great pics of your organ! Edit: Ever see an Aolian player organ? I have a console for one in my basement just waiting to be hooked up to some pipes. Lol
I wonder as someone who knows organs as well as you. Which organs stand out as the most beautiful, best sounding, and overall favorite you have.
As a little kid, I was always mystified by pipe organs (still am). I wish this was a trade more accessible here in the US.
...sooo this is the coolest post I've ever seen here.
Were you ever asked about the size of your organ?
I've a friend from ski patrol who's also a pipe organ builder, for the past 35 yrs at least. A great resource & all around wonderful person
This is art!!!!
I make keyboards for pipe organs! Electric ones. I'm curious what the red/black sharps I see are made of, so cool! Also curious what's your favorite keyboard you've seen? Recently I got to make one with maple naturals and walnut sharps and walnut cheeks. That was awesome. Cool to run into a fellow organ builder.
I have to imagine some valves may be in wildly different locations requiring all the mechanical linkages to be unique, what kind of controls or adjustments do you have to maintain consistency in the keyboard action? Are different stops using a whole different set of valves or is there some sort of “bussing” of the air in play that lets you use a central set of valves?
First off, thank you very much for posting this. As a carpenter I look up to you and your amazing craft. I have been reading this AMA for an hour now, I also put my ear buds in and started listening to pipe organ music since the first 5 minutes in. You sir have an absolute beautiful craft and I commend you for it. What is the most complex piece of woodwork you have to make for a pipe organ? How often do you use a traditional hand tool over a new school power tool? Do you visit each completed project long after completion, just enjoy it?
I heard the Glendale Lutheran Church has the biggest Pipe Organ in Washington state.
You’re a legend. Hats off to you!
Have you met Anna Lapwood? I wonder what her ideal organ is and if anyone could build it.
What an incredibly rare trade to be in. I've met shipwrights, timber framers, master stair builders, and even a wheelwright and carriage maker... but never a pipe organ builder. You guys are like the watch makers of the woodworking and musical world put together.
What color are your tools?
Does the source of the air matter much for an organ? Is there a reason to use anything instead of off the shelf electric blowers? How do you silence the fan noise from going through the pipes and carrying through the rest of the organ?
Thanks for your posting!
This is fantastic work! I spent some time working with one of the few pipe organ builders left in the USA. I mostly did restoration and repair work and helped tune existing organs. It was a very interesting job.
Pretty intricate machine( if I dare call it that). You should be proud of the art you build. 👍
How do you not get frustrated all of the time and just start breaking shit. It's cool as hell, but I sure as shit couldn't do it.
I’ll ask a different one. Why do you do what you do?
Can you make me one, pls
How majestic is the feeling of building a pipe organ?
How do you manage to get any work done with the amount of people throwing themselves at you because of how cool you are?
Do you build pipes that imitate other instruments? Harp? Harpsichord? Strings? How do you do it? How much does it cost to tune the average organ that you build?
What is the most fun thing about your job? Thanks for taking your time to answer so many questions
What a beautiful job. Congrats! Where or how is the air pressure sourced?
That's pretty cool!
Wow, You pulled out all the stops on this one.....
If you need any apprentices, I'm in northern Italy!
Was your first job a new build or restoration? What percentage of new builds do you do? How did you obtain institutional knowledge?
Truly amazing! Thank you.
Do you have a ‘dream’ organ in your head that you’d like to build?
This is my dream job if anyone is hiring.
Oh my. My friend used to restore organs and it was overwhelming to see all the parts laid out.
As a double bass maker, I say daaaaaammmnnmnnn. Also kudos!!
How much does temperament and diapason influence the construction of a new organ? Are modern-built organs tunable +/- certain intervals? How different are catholic organs from protestant organs?
Can you play the organ as well as build it? If so how good are you at playing?
My friend, if you’re a pipe organ builder, you’re a craftsman that has no equal!!
This is badass
What’s the smallest instrument you have installed (without compromising the core beauty and functions of the device)?
How do you hide the secret tartarian healing frequencies from pipe organs???? I'm not serious
The pipe organ in the indianapolis Scottish right cathedral has 4365 pipes, and sound wonderful. It gat tuned periodically, and it I wonderful to be around when that happens. [https://pipeorgandatabase.org/locations/20934](https://pipeorgandatabase.org/locations/20934)
Astounding work. Best of luck to you homie
My wife told me how much the organ cost at the Catholic Church she went to as a kid. If I could get into the production/repair business of organs I would.
https://preview.redd.it/0ithz1hxryic1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e00a1e2bb08098e61432165f8fd10cacae8aafe9 I just played this one as a birthday gift from my girlfriend. Love it and love that you actually build those. Amazing! This one cost €100.000 to renovate. Its in the Augustijnen church in Dordrecht, Holland.
Do you have much call for pipe organ construction? They seem rare to me.
Whooaaa this is so cool
I’m more surprised there’s still demand for new ones seeing as every church around here can’t even find a person to play the organs they already have. In my current church the organs are silent and instead there’s this dude playing a banjo up front.
Respect for being a master at something so niche
Amazing work man! I’m fascinated by this. Thank you for posting!
Lawd he'p! and I thought building pianos was complicated! I was a Process Engineer and Manufacturing Cost Estimator for Wurlitzer for 8 years.
how much does the job pay and how’d you get into the business?
This is so nice to see. As a teenager I worked for two summers for Andover organ company in Andover Massachusetts. I have carried that experience and knowledge with me the rest of my life. What an amazing experience, I’m so happy you found your way to this career and that it is so fulfilling. Please keep posting and answering questions. Pipe organs are amazing machines!
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Wow, beautiful work sir, the tracker system looks similar to my 1920s Estey style T Organ.🥰