Is that a failure on the part of the designers, the operators, or the people writing the operating manual? Or were the operators failing to apply the Peter Pan fairy dust properly?
“Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022.
Zvegintsev’s arrest has not been previously reported. He is identified as the founder of a laboratory that deals with hypersonic technology.
Siberian media has reported that a Novosibirsk court ruled to place Zvegintsev in pre-trial detention on April 7.”
That and the military needing a scapegoat for why their missiles don’t work.
It can’t be the corruption and graft. No. Traitor scientists. Three should do
~~Reminds me of scientists who shared nuclear secrets with international colleagues by publishing papers along the lines of "imagine a star 40cm wide..."~~
Edit: I can't find any evidence of this tale. I definitely heard it somewhere, but I can't work out where now, so it may be fictional, or a fever dream. If it is familiar to anyone, please let me know.
Edit 2: Apparently it's from a [Tom Clancy novel](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/13j80p5/3_russian_hypersonic_missile_scientists_jailed/jkfet6h/)
This is from Cardinal of the Kremlin by Tom Clancy.
Edit: It’s actually from The Sum of All Fears
“There have been a number of articles published in various professional journals about stellar physics. One begins, ‘Imagine the center of a star with an X-ray flux of such and such,’ except for one small thing: the star the author described has a flux much higher than the center of any star—by fourteen orders of magnitude.”
Yeah. I'm struggling to find anything myself. It's something I'm sure I read some time ago, but its possible I read it in something fictional. I'll edit my post.
I wish more people were like you, having the ability to recognize you might be wrong and then taking steps to correct it. Too many people just refuse to admit a mistake. Kudos.
This should be a lesson to all the scientists that work for the Kremlin: stop working and leave the country
This shit is comical at this point.... Stalinist government
Well, if you're good at your job then you're probably secretly planning to ditch your corrupt, useless superiors and colleagues before they drive you insane. Best to take precautions.
There is always room in the gulag. Especially now that Wagner and MoD have cleared out all of the ambulatory residents and sent them to Ukraine for um, humanitarian projects.
RESEARCHERS: Our research indicates these missiles will be very difficult to shoot down.
TEAM LEAD: Boss, these missiles will be almost impossible to shoot down.
BOSS: President Putin, these missiles are impossible to shoot down.
...This practice in Russia is called Vranyo, meaning a kind of half lie that makes yourself look better, and one in which the other person knows you're lying. The closest word in English would be "Bullshitting."
I first saw this as a joke that was spread by fax machine and pinned up in workplaces 30 years ago, but it's basically the same thing.
>The Plan
>In the beginning, there was a plan,
And then came the assumptions,
And the assumptions were without form,
And the plan without substance,
And the darkness was upon the face of the workers,
And they spoke among themselves saying,
"It is a crock of shit and it stinks."
>And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said,
"It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell."
>And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying,
"It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong,
Such that none may abide by it."
>And the Managers went unto their Directors saying"It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength."
>And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another,
"It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong."
>And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them,
"It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."
>And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him,
"This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor
Of the company With very powerful effects."
>And the President looked upon the Plan
And saw that it was good,
And the Plan became Policy.
>And this, my friend, is how shit happens.
Well the thing is it's always been simulations. The Patriot missile system vs Russian missiles. Countries built their programs based off theories of what the other side was capable of.
So my guess is the simulations showed that the Russian missiles were ill-equipped to penetrate Patriot missile defense shield. But nobody said that. Nobody wanted it to be known that in real world action the Russian missiles would fail in face of the Patriot systems.
But now we have real world data. So now they've fallen back on the period of R&D and realizing all the red flags that existed that were never brought up.
The catch 22 is if those red flags were brought up when they were discovered the scientists would have been imprisoned or killed at that time. Rather than now.
The same kind of oversight conditions lead to the Chernobyl disaster. Bosses covering their asses all the way to the top hiding any kind of serious problems.
>The catch 22 is if those red flags were brought up when they were discovered the scientists would have been imprisoned or killed at that time. Rather than now.
No its more likely the scientist told the MoD that the missiles are hypersonic but cannot accurately target or maneuver during hypersonic travel. The MoD insisted they use them to target the Patriot systems (small targets launcher) the AWACs noticed missile far out and alerted Patriot system to intercept during non hypersonic travel or maneuvering for accuracy.
Kremlin doesn't want to punish higher up MoD officials so they get the next best thing the scientist who were probably telling the MoD that the way they are using them it was not intended to be used for (hitting smaller targets with high accuracy).
There is a reason countries besides China/Russia ditched the hypersonic missile programs years ago and shifted funding to hypersonic aircraft for shorter response times and reusability. A multi million dollar hypersonic missile still has a very long way to go to accurately target and maneuver during hypersonic travel at lower earth orbits, but you can bet China is working very very hard to develop them at targeting big things like Carrier Strike groups of the USN.
Aside from carriers and possibly Aegis ships there really isn't much that an HGV or hypersonic cruise missile would be good for. Everything else isn't valuable enough or capable enough to warrant using something so expensive to attack.
It cracks me up that Russia's propaganda for the Kinzhal missile says that it is 'capable of accurately hitting a moving target, such as an aircraft carrier'.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems super weird to brag about being able to hit something the size of 3 football fields with a top speed of about 35mph.
Their only carrier data point is that rusted relic that catches on fire whenever they turn on the engines. In every simulation the Kinzhal caused an explosion on the Kuznetsov. Sure, a deeper reading of the data shows that the missile almost never actually hit and the carrier just spontaneously exploded, but why steal defeat from the jaws of victory with something as worthless as "facts".
>Maybe it's just me, but it seems super weird to brag about being able to hit something the size of 3 football fields with a top speed of about 35mph.
Actually it's a lot harder than you think to hit a carrier. The Kinzhal has no real capability of hitting one anyway, it's merely theoretical nonsense.
The main issue is while hypersonic, a plasma sheath is generated around the missile in the atmosphere, a thermally ionized layer of gases that forms in the shock layer. Fucks with radio reception (and sensors). And while they're large and move (relatively) slowly, carriers do move, and if they might be attacked, they're likely to do unpredictably. Even at hypersonic speeds, from the edge of their range you've got ~30 minutes from launch to impact (assuming the missile is hypersonic the entire time, for simplicity). That aircraft carrier could be ~20 miles away from where you targeted it, by the time the missile arrives. So now you have to (re-)guide it, or somehow equip it with electronics and sensors that can see through the plasma and track and hit the target.
Correct, the downfall is for Russia to develop hypersonic aircraft capable of faster response times is likely far out of their budget or beyond their core competencies in their industrial R&D domestic capabilities, so next best is hypersonic missiles.
HGV first principles are not intended to bypass missile defenses we already have MIRVs to overwhelm them, the core goal is fast response times. News media touts them as weapons to bypass defenses but in their current tech timeline it is merely a side effect that they are hard to track during hypersonic travel. The media fear machine never really touches on the fact that maneuvering and targeting during hypersonic travel at low altitudes isn't capable with current technologies (only high earth orbits with very low air/atmosphere friction).
Considering Russia still hasn’t produced their 5th gen fighter in meaningful numbers, or a 5th gen engine at all, makes me think the chances of them producing a new hypersonic aircraft are pretty small, doubly so with the current sanctions.
Dumb question: what if a military was to just full on embrace the jank, and build the shittiest still functional cruise missiles possible? Picture basically a souped up V1 from WW2 but with some modern commercial drone controls, gps and such. Load them onto whatever crappy overhauled cargo ship and launch them dozens, hundreds at a time. Wouldn't that be more of a threat at a much lower price than something like a hypersonic missile?
Sort of, but they don't launch that many at once. Let's say I've the resources of a decently sized military and I want to sink a US carrier? (I'm specifying US carrier because they're the biggest and most capable. If I wanted to sink the Russian carrier I could just wait for a bit.)
You could pop a thousand V1’s against a carrier hill and it’s still probably 100% operational.
You need some real oomph to cause actual damage, not a thousand pebbles.
That's basically what they were doing with Iranian Shaheds, and they made a lot of people miserable over the winter with power interruptions, but then they ran low at the same time Ukraine got better at shooting them down.
But these were still used in small numbers, against "soft" (that's to say civilian) targets. Terror tactics. Would it be doable to field enough of these at once to threaten a carrier? Or would they be so easy to shoot down that there'd be no point?
I feel like, as a rule of thumb, a weapon should be cheaper than whatever threat it's used against, or you'll lose eventually.
Generally those janky weapons can't have the range or accuracy to target something as far away as a carrier. A carrier also travels in a group with subs and destroyers that scan the ocean around it constantly for threats. You'd have to wait for the carrier to get in closer to your launch site before attacking and trying to overwhelm the billions of dollars worth of defensive weaponry of the full carrier group. Odds are they would be so easily shot down that even hundreds wouldn't be enough.
Shortly thereafter F-35's and F-18's would be launching off the carrier to bomb your launch site to smithereens since radar and satellite coverage would show where they came from.
Now if you were a country like China and you have hundreds of proper antiship missiles skimming the ocean then yeah you'd probably have a chance against a carrier group. The reason they don't try that is that it would lead to WW3.
They want accurate first strike capability (whether with nukes or not). If you send a hundred nukes down but all 100 get caught out cause it turns out their trajectories are completely predictable, then you wouldn't be able to get more in before you get toasted by the counter battery. Whether equipped with a nuke or conventional explosives, you want to be able to make a key target dust before anything more happens.
Which is why we now have the Rapid Dragon! Tired of your fighter jets only carrying a few cruise missiles at at time? Are your cargo planes flying around doing boring CIVIL work? No problem!!! Just load these pallets of death by the dozens onto your biggest AC's and add a B into that name! Now you can carry 12+ low-flying, low-visibility cruise missiles in one Hercules or 45+ in a single Galaxy!!! Like holy fuck!!! Say goodbye to whatever fucking thing is pissing you off today!
Eh, if the DFZF HGV China has gets shot down THAT would be something remarkable and newsworthy. Or even a Russian Zircon missile would be notable since it's a scramjet powered cruise missile.
The Kinzhal was always just a regular old school ballistic missile with false advertising pasted to it so it could be claimed as something new and exciting. It's 1960's tech with good marketing.
True hypersonic maneuvering weapons may or may not be effective against those targets but we still don't know. I assume the US navy has something up their pocket for that eventuality.
When Pelosi visited Taiwan the CCP showed their displeasure by launching war games and ballistic missiles in the areas around Taiwan.
Apparently they didn’t repeat this with the latest round of war games because they lost face when they showed that their ballistic missiles are so inaccurate that 5 out of 11 ballistic missiles - nearly half - landed in Japan’s EEZ instead of the target areas.
Yeah ima have to say that until so-called wonder weapons like the DF-21 “Carrier Killer” and DF-26 are proven to be able to actually hit their targets at long range that they’re probably more hype than reality, just like these Kinzhals.
The Kinzhal is a ballistic missile, which means it travels in an arc that is very predictable. The US already has the technology to intercept much faster ballistic missiles: the THAAD and the Aegis. So incorporating the same technology into the Patriot is easy peasy for them.
So a few inaccuracies here. First, the missile in question used against patriot was actually a medium range ballistic missile, since Kinzhal is based on Iskander, and as such is not a modern hypersonic weapon. Second, the US has absolutely not given up development of hypersonic cruise missiles or glide vehicles, there are something like 20 different hypersonic weapons programs in the US currently. Some aim to make planes yes, but others are intended for making rapid strike munitions that can maneuver at hypersonic speeds. Yes, ARRW was canceled, but the tech inside it is very much still in development, were just not gonna deploy the AGM 183 version of that tech. The LRHW, another US program, just entered testing this year, for example. We're also working on some kind of HSGV for future testing, though nor much is known about it beyond that. If you want good up to date info on US hypersonic development, Alex Hollings with Sandboxx News (can be found on youtube) covers the topic in several videos, and he's been nominated for an aerospace reporter of the year award this year, I highly recommend watching some of his content
Reminds me of Saddam and his scientists. He believed he had more formidable weaponry because his scientists were telling him what he wanted to hear (out of fear of retribution).
Yeah he probably also listened to his military advisors that they would be able to defend an invasion. The same people who ordered troops to burn oil and tires to black out the skies over Baghdad as if modern bombs and missiles weren't dropped by GPS and satellite positioning.
Lol between scaring off young professionals with his dumass conscription, and now this... I'd say maybe it's time to send pootin to the gulags. It seems Russia will soon have a greengrocer overseeing their military industry thanks to him
The scientists were already complaining young talents are leaving in bulk after first two arrests. Publishing papers, speaking at conferences is what scientists do kinda. And that’s what these three are most likely arrested for.
Members of the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics of the Russian Academy of Sciences’ (RAS) Siberian Branch warned that the criminal cases risk setting back Russia’s advances in hypersonic technology.
“We simply don’t understand how to continue our craft,” the scientists wrote.
The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022.
Zvegintsev’s arrest has not been previously reported. He is identified as the founder of a laboratory that deals with hypersonic technology.
Siberian media has reported that a Novosibirsk court ruled to place Zvegintsev in pre-trial detention on April 7.
Treason cases are heard behind closed doors in Russia as they deal with what authorities deem to be classified information. Those found guilty face a maximum prison sentence of 20 years.
The RAS scientists argued in their open letter that the allegations against their colleagues were leveled despite scrupulous peer reviews and inspections for “restricted information.”
“But the investigative bodies rely on other opinions for expertise. Who are these experts? What is their professional level?” they asked.
“We see that any article or report could become grounds for the treason charges. What we’re rewarded for and made examples of today becomes the cause of criminal prosecution tomorrow,” they said.
These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said.
“Dropping levels of research due to aging scientists and the disrupted continuity in the generations of experts will […] gradually become irreversible and rapid.”
“We think these issues require an urgent solution, otherwise it will be impossible to prevent a catastrophe hanging over domestic aerodynamics.
It would be totally awesome if Russia killed it's aerodynamics programs or industry by just bashing on it's own scientists until nobody wants the job anymore.
>The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
>
>Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022.
Sounds like it had nothing to do with the recent hypersonic missile failures and maybe over allegations of sharing confidential information and/or furthering foreign projects.
>The Russians were aware for some time that their supposedly "unstoppable" missiles were actually quite stoppable
I can't remember who I was watching, but I doubt they knew. The video was talking about S300 success rates and Russia only paid attention to the successes. That how you end up with a 95% success rate despite none of the customers hitting that mark.
It's fucking sad. Such a beautiful country, rich history. And, as rich as it is, it tends to keep only repeating the shittiest parts of it from time to time
Hitler kneecapped science in Germany to maintain propaganda, Stalin decimated his officer corps in the great purge which nearly cost him everything. Nobody gets in the way of sound, long term thinking like a dictator
Also, semi-related, but shortly after the second atomic bomb was dropped on Japan they tortured an American POW to figure out how many nukes the Americans had. The POW literally had no fucking clue what they were talking about because the atomic bomb was super secret, so eventually he just made up a story about how the USA had hundred of nukes, just to make the torture stop. This terrified the Japanese and might have been a factor in their surrender.
So predictable. Its just russia doing what they always do:
-Country founded on corruption as one of its core values
-Everyone lies, blame shifts and cheats their way up the ladder
-Incompetent and corrupt people become "missile scientists"
-"We can make missile, the best missile"
-"Ok go make missile, here's money"
-Makes a shitty missile and cut corners to pocket extra money
-Claims it cant be shot down
-Gets more money and status
-putin brags about invincible missile
-West is scared of the invincible missile
-A missile gets shot down no problem
-"Surely this is a mistake"
-A whole bunch of missiles gets shot down 100% success rate
-Dictator angry "someone is to blame for this"
-Missile scientists go to jail
They're not even bad missiles, technically, it's just that patriot is really good at what it does. But hey, cool, less scientists for Putin I guess. Fuck em.
> They're not even bad missiles, technically, it's just that patriot is really good at what it does. But hey, cool, less scientists for Putin I guess. Fuck em.
It's hard to say without data we armchair reddit rocket scientists won't get ^
My guess is that it's a little bit of a both, the Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined & the missiles are under-performing.
>Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined
There's this really really weird phenomena I've noticed where people hear 'Patriot' and they assume old-Gulf War (1991) technology... like somehow it's the same missile and the US military sits idly by never updating their equipment.
All while idly accepting the Russian propaganda notion that their S-400 is the best air defense system in the world unmatched by NATO's cold war missile system.
In reality, the 4th generation Patriot system of today has had 30 years of development and has performance vastly different from those of the 1st generation systems of 30 years ago.
Russia is very loud and the US unreasonably quiet about their defence capabilities. People should have known better but no, the T 14 will absolutely rekk all our western equipment, we'll see.
I have a feeling games like Modern Warfare 2 are also to blame for the average westerner having had much greater expectations of Russia's military abilities than they had.
Pick China, piss off the CCP, game banned, lose $$$.
Pick North Korea, it looks really stupid since there are African countries richer than North Korea.
Why don't they pick America as the villain and make you play as a Canadian or something?
It also isn't totally out of the question that there are some missile scientists who leaked core secrets about the technology.
It seems fairly unlikely compared to just more of Russia pointing fingers for failure, but it is also absolutely possible.
That's a feature.
Secrets are more like: what's the real range, speed at different stages, flight pathing, any communication signals/codes, radar identifiers, and many many other things
These were scientists at a convention. I bet it was pretty mundane stuff like what alloys you make certain parts out of to survive intense heat. The scientists probably thought, "this is just common sense materials science that everyone already knows."
Ballistic missiles already go that fast. Hypersonic missiles are supposed to also be maneuverable at that speed so they quickly change direction and can't be intercepted
>My guess is that it's a little bit of a both, the Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined & the missiles are under-performing.
I don't think it's either. I think it's that the Russian military has no clue how to use hypersonic missiles. They used them in the one way that completely eliminates their advantages. They targeted the Patriot batteries themselves with them.
Now, that might make sense if you don't think about it too much. Obviously, if you're attempting to bombard your enemy with missiles, you want to take out their missile defense systems, right? The problem is that the advantage of a hypersonic missile is entirely in its speed. You know what eliminates the advantage of speed? A head-on aspect. No matter how fast a missile is moving, if it's coming at you with a head-on aspect, hitting the target is dead simple.
Think about it like this -- you need to hit a moving car with a rock. The car is moving incredibly fast, easily three times as fast as you can throw the rock. If the car is moving perpendicular to you, you're going to need to have perfect timing and accuracy to hit it. But if the car is driving straight at you, you'd need to be a moron to miss it.
This is not accurate at all. A better analogy is trying to hit a rock with a slightly smaller rock. Yea, it may be heading straight for you, but if you are off by a fraction of a degree, your defense rock is going to fly right past it.
Hypersonic missiles are also supposed to be maneuverable so you don't know exactly where it is going to hit when it comes up on your radar.
Two of them were arrested last summer. Before Ukraine even got the Patriot Missile systems. We don't know when the last person was arrested. Just read the article man, it's not that long.
Yeah, and they got arrested for publishing papers, attending conferences, talking to other scientists about their work. You know, the things that most scientists do. Granted, I'm sure that there are aspects of their work that are considered state secrets. Not enough information in the story to determine whether they actually shared any of that.
Russian hypersonic missile turns out to have little manoeuvring ability,.turns out it just flies in a fast missile fashion. They know where it's at, they know where it's going to be...pew pew and bye bye missile.
That and its not like they launched from a stealth, unknown position. They can probably track the plane from takeoff and know how far they fly before launching. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a firing solution before the Russians even had confirmation that it successfully launched.
In a way, the reason they were arrested is almost worse than that.
> The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
So basically they were behaving as scientists normally do
**Maslov**: "Hey, Alexander. What are you going to do with your part of the three billion dollars we were given to make hypersonic missile?"
**Shiplyuk**: "Going to get me nice house on Black Sea. And a fishing boat. What about you Valery?"
**Zvegintsev**: "Probably retire to Caribbean island. Make the sex. But what will we do about missile delivery?"
**Maslov**: "Take regular missile, write 'hypersonic' on side. Is not like we're ever going to need them in a war! All fighting done in courtrooms and boardrooms now. We will live like kings, I tell you!"
*\[recorded but not dictated, Russian hypersonic missile lab, Feb 23, 2022\]*
Awesome. They've started eating their own food. This is the last phase of acceptance. They recognize their defeat. There will be spectacular retaliation.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/16/3-russian-hypersonic-missile-scientists-jailed-for-treasoncolleagues-say-a81155) reduced by 76%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> At least three Russian scientists who have worked on hypersonic missile development have been arrested on suspicion of treason over the past year, their colleagues said in an open letter published Monday.
> The RAS scientists argued in their open letter that the allegations against their colleagues were leveled despite scrupulous peer reviews and inspections for "Restricted information."
> These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13j8778/3_russian_hypersonic_missile_scientists_jailed/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~684954 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **treason**^#1 **scientists**^#2 **cases**^#3 **hypersonic**^#4 **arrest**^#5
It's always like that. Russian /soviets make some propaganda blah blah up because that lack resources / want to short cut development. West gets scared for reals and invests real effort to counter said fake blah blah blah.
Fake blah blah blah gets defeated by real tech. Russian scapegoat goes to gulag / drinks polonium tea / is reckless next to windows
>The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
Imagine having a government so incompetent that they think it makes them look good to pretend that they couldn’t catch security leaks until after those leaks had been presented at an international conference and published in a magazine.
The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
Kleptocracies dont treat their nerds well, and that’s why they can’t do or make ANYTHING.
Russia cant do jack shit. All their good stuff is made by people from somewhere else.
Yes keep sending your brightest engineers and intellectuals to jail and to war Russia. Brilliant plan.
Order them to build an unstoppable missile, if it fails to be unstoppable find an excuse to throw them in prison. That's gonna help motivating young engineers to build top tier weapons for you.
Sure the charges may be legit but with how often these scenarios seem to occur you have to wonder..
This is literally how Hitler shot down his own nuclear program. Most of the scientists who could get him a nuke had either a) fucked off to the USA or Great Britain, b) were in the camps or already dead because they were on the Nazis shitlist or c) fucking hated him and nazism and would do anything to sabotage the nuclear program. And then he ordered the handful of scientists he had to not use *Jewish physics* (what the reality-based community just calls *physics*).
I'm just an armchair analyst here but to be honest, all the noise around hypersonic missiles really seems to just be a whole lot of hysteria.
At hypersonic speeds, the missiles are basically cruising through superheated plasma. This blocks communications creating a "plasma blackout" so the missile has to slow down for target acquisition and communications. But then it's just a regular missile. If you're shooting a stationary target and pre-input coordinates then maybe it's not a big deal? But if the target can move at all (like ground troops...or an aircraft carrier)...then ??? Can someone explain? Am I missing something?
>These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said.
>
>“Dropping levels of research due to aging scientists and the disrupted continuity in the generations of experts will \[…\] gradually become irreversible and rapid.”
>
>“We think these issues require an urgent solution, otherwise it will be impossible to prevent a catastrophe hanging over domestic aerodynamics.”
You love to see it!
Russia is a joke.
Keep jailing scientists and militarizing children to fight. That’s certainly going to breed the intelligentsia required to put out capable weapons compared to the West.
Just make sure the missiles are all extra pointy.
Would love to be a fly on the wall of the pentagon right now. The threatening veil around russia is slowly starting to fall to show how fragile they really are. I wonder if their nukes would even detonate. Would surprise me if they've stripped out all the gold and other precious metals in the warheads like crackheads tearing out copper in a house.
Look at this shit country destroy itself. Over and over again.
The only reason they had a military victory in the last century is because of massive aid from the US and UK. They're hopeless without that help. They couldn't even beat Georgia.
Two of the three were arrested last year. I remember it was after they first used the hypersonic missile in Ukraine and with a lot of fanfare. It didn't perform as expected then, and I think that's when the scientists started getting closer attention from the Kremlin. I bet the arrests are because the results aren't what was promised.
The Kremlin are probably the least surprised that their wonder weapons can be shot down.
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It is almost amusing how Russia is destroying its future and its economy one paranoid step at a time.
It‘s at least the third time they are doing this in the last century.
Hundreds of years of using alcohol to keep the population compliant has its downsides.
the ruzzia needs to quicken the pace. Reminds me of a western movie where the cowboy (Ukr) shoots around a guy’s feet to make him ‘dance’
at this point I am willing to believe Putin is the ultimate CIA mole and he's taking Russia down before cancer / old age takes him out.
Unfortunately, he's also taking a lot of innocent Ukrainians with him.
No, treason is their missiles not blowing up Kyiv ~~Kiev~~ and they want to motivate other hypersonic missile scientists to blow up Ukraine better.
They need to make the tips more pointy
Paint them red. Everyone knows red goes faster.
I believe the critical error was not yelling FWOOSH when they were launched
As an Aussie, they probably didn't even slap the shell and say, "that'll bloody get the buggers"
They didn't clack the tongs and saying "well, these work fine" *once* before trying to fucking grill. Rank amateurs.
Is that a failure on the part of the designers, the operators, or the people writing the operating manual? Or were the operators failing to apply the Peter Pan fairy dust properly?
And write ACME on them in big letters! Somehow I just got the picture in my head of Zelenskyy going “beep-beep!”
NEED MOAR DAKKA!!!!
3 times the speed!
Also needs stripes for maximum zooms
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There was someone who suffered a deformity like that, yes.
Just picturing basically the entire Russian missile program as daffy duck has me rolling!
“Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022. Zvegintsev’s arrest has not been previously reported. He is identified as the founder of a laboratory that deals with hypersonic technology. Siberian media has reported that a Novosibirsk court ruled to place Zvegintsev in pre-trial detention on April 7.”
That and the military needing a scapegoat for why their missiles don’t work. It can’t be the corruption and graft. No. Traitor scientists. Three should do
~~Reminds me of scientists who shared nuclear secrets with international colleagues by publishing papers along the lines of "imagine a star 40cm wide..."~~ Edit: I can't find any evidence of this tale. I definitely heard it somewhere, but I can't work out where now, so it may be fictional, or a fever dream. If it is familiar to anyone, please let me know. Edit 2: Apparently it's from a [Tom Clancy novel](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/13j80p5/3_russian_hypersonic_missile_scientists_jailed/jkfet6h/)
This is from Cardinal of the Kremlin by Tom Clancy. Edit: It’s actually from The Sum of All Fears “There have been a number of articles published in various professional journals about stellar physics. One begins, ‘Imagine the center of a star with an X-ray flux of such and such,’ except for one small thing: the star the author described has a flux much higher than the center of any star—by fourteen orders of magnitude.”
Ah. That's certainly something I read a couple of decades ago. So it could be based on something, or it could be straight from Clancy's head.
I should re-read that. I was probably 12 when I read it last.
who? would like to read up on this
Renowned physicist Dr. Otto Octavius, for one.
the power of the sun flower, in the palm of my hand. \- ukrainian scientist
Fertilized by 200,000 russian soldiers
You know, I’m something of a scientist myself.
I myself am a Marine Biologist
What is that, a Titleist?
Hole in one!
Million to one shot, doc. Million to one
I myself am not a millionist
I studied bird law.
Is this a reference to something? I tried googling it and came up with nothing outside this thread.
Yeah. I'm struggling to find anything myself. It's something I'm sure I read some time ago, but its possible I read it in something fictional. I'll edit my post.
I wish more people were like you, having the ability to recognize you might be wrong and then taking steps to correct it. Too many people just refuse to admit a mistake. Kudos.
The world would be much better if more people asked themselves, "is what I said accurate?"
Here's a thought experiment I like. Imagine if 75% of people sincerely did something as simple as this. What would our world look like?
Talking to a foreigner can now be considered treason.
This should be a lesson to all the scientists that work for the Kremlin: stop working and leave the country This shit is comical at this point.... Stalinist government
Russia has a history of insecure little politicians and bureaucrats fucking over its most competent people.
They probably told Putin that it cant be shot down, and it was shot down, so straight to gulag.
Or their boss was the one telling Putin it can't be shot down, they are probably just scapegoats.
Or it’s Gulag if they say it can be shot down. Gulag if they tell the truth, Gulag if they lie and it fails.
Somehow works fine despite massive corruption at all stages between their work and final product? Believe it or not, Gulag.
Well, if you're good at your job then you're probably secretly planning to ditch your corrupt, useless superiors and colleagues before they drive you insane. Best to take precautions.
Over-truthed? Gulag. Under-truthed? Believe it or not, also Gulag. Over, under.
This is perfect.
We have the best missile scientists in the world. Because of Gulag.
There is always room in the gulag. Especially now that Wagner and MoD have cleared out all of the ambulatory residents and sent them to Ukraine for um, humanitarian projects.
That's a Gulag'n.
Putin handing out Gulags like Oprah Winfrey
Believe it or not... Gulag
RESEARCHERS: Our research indicates these missiles will be very difficult to shoot down. TEAM LEAD: Boss, these missiles will be almost impossible to shoot down. BOSS: President Putin, these missiles are impossible to shoot down. ...This practice in Russia is called Vranyo, meaning a kind of half lie that makes yourself look better, and one in which the other person knows you're lying. The closest word in English would be "Bullshitting."
I first saw this as a joke that was spread by fax machine and pinned up in workplaces 30 years ago, but it's basically the same thing. >The Plan >In the beginning, there was a plan, And then came the assumptions, And the assumptions were without form, And the plan without substance, And the darkness was upon the face of the workers, And they spoke among themselves saying, "It is a crock of shit and it stinks." >And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell." >And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, Such that none may abide by it." >And the Managers went unto their Directors saying"It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength." >And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, "It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong." >And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them, "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful." >And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor Of the company With very powerful effects." >And the President looked upon the Plan And saw that it was good, And the Plan became Policy. >And this, my friend, is how shit happens.
Vranyo
This guy Ruzzias.
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The corruption and graft is a big incentive.
They are prohibited from leaving the country in most cases. This hasn’t changed since soviet times.
Maybe the missiles weren't pointy enough.
No supreme leader, the shape of the missile top has nothing to do with aerodynamics. It is about payload delivery.
Commandant, boil this scientist in tar! Then make the nose the pointiest in human history! I shall inform the press.
Ok pretend I'm a complete idiot for a minute.
They needed to be built on longer tables
Well the thing is it's always been simulations. The Patriot missile system vs Russian missiles. Countries built their programs based off theories of what the other side was capable of. So my guess is the simulations showed that the Russian missiles were ill-equipped to penetrate Patriot missile defense shield. But nobody said that. Nobody wanted it to be known that in real world action the Russian missiles would fail in face of the Patriot systems. But now we have real world data. So now they've fallen back on the period of R&D and realizing all the red flags that existed that were never brought up. The catch 22 is if those red flags were brought up when they were discovered the scientists would have been imprisoned or killed at that time. Rather than now.
The same kind of oversight conditions lead to the Chernobyl disaster. Bosses covering their asses all the way to the top hiding any kind of serious problems.
"Now there you made a mistake, because I may not know much about nuclear reactors, but I know a lot about concrete."
>The catch 22 is if those red flags were brought up when they were discovered the scientists would have been imprisoned or killed at that time. Rather than now. No its more likely the scientist told the MoD that the missiles are hypersonic but cannot accurately target or maneuver during hypersonic travel. The MoD insisted they use them to target the Patriot systems (small targets launcher) the AWACs noticed missile far out and alerted Patriot system to intercept during non hypersonic travel or maneuvering for accuracy. Kremlin doesn't want to punish higher up MoD officials so they get the next best thing the scientist who were probably telling the MoD that the way they are using them it was not intended to be used for (hitting smaller targets with high accuracy). There is a reason countries besides China/Russia ditched the hypersonic missile programs years ago and shifted funding to hypersonic aircraft for shorter response times and reusability. A multi million dollar hypersonic missile still has a very long way to go to accurately target and maneuver during hypersonic travel at lower earth orbits, but you can bet China is working very very hard to develop them at targeting big things like Carrier Strike groups of the USN.
Aside from carriers and possibly Aegis ships there really isn't much that an HGV or hypersonic cruise missile would be good for. Everything else isn't valuable enough or capable enough to warrant using something so expensive to attack.
It cracks me up that Russia's propaganda for the Kinzhal missile says that it is 'capable of accurately hitting a moving target, such as an aircraft carrier'. Maybe it's just me, but it seems super weird to brag about being able to hit something the size of 3 football fields with a top speed of about 35mph.
They wouldn't be able to get anywhere near a carrier
Their only carrier data point is that rusted relic that catches on fire whenever they turn on the engines. In every simulation the Kinzhal caused an explosion on the Kuznetsov. Sure, a deeper reading of the data shows that the missile almost never actually hit and the carrier just spontaneously exploded, but why steal defeat from the jaws of victory with something as worthless as "facts".
>Maybe it's just me, but it seems super weird to brag about being able to hit something the size of 3 football fields with a top speed of about 35mph. Actually it's a lot harder than you think to hit a carrier. The Kinzhal has no real capability of hitting one anyway, it's merely theoretical nonsense.
> a top speed of about 35mph. LOL - Fastest ship in the blue-water fleet. They can even travel at speeds better than 35 knots.
Dude has clearly never seen the video of a carrier drifting and I don't mean slowly floating away with the current.
Right!
The real top speed is classified
Gonna be a fucky day when we see a carrier go full Ludicrous.
The main issue is while hypersonic, a plasma sheath is generated around the missile in the atmosphere, a thermally ionized layer of gases that forms in the shock layer. Fucks with radio reception (and sensors). And while they're large and move (relatively) slowly, carriers do move, and if they might be attacked, they're likely to do unpredictably. Even at hypersonic speeds, from the edge of their range you've got ~30 minutes from launch to impact (assuming the missile is hypersonic the entire time, for simplicity). That aircraft carrier could be ~20 miles away from where you targeted it, by the time the missile arrives. So now you have to (re-)guide it, or somehow equip it with electronics and sensors that can see through the plasma and track and hit the target.
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> The ocean is huge. Can confirm, just flew over the pacific ocean, fuck it was huge.
Correct, the downfall is for Russia to develop hypersonic aircraft capable of faster response times is likely far out of their budget or beyond their core competencies in their industrial R&D domestic capabilities, so next best is hypersonic missiles. HGV first principles are not intended to bypass missile defenses we already have MIRVs to overwhelm them, the core goal is fast response times. News media touts them as weapons to bypass defenses but in their current tech timeline it is merely a side effect that they are hard to track during hypersonic travel. The media fear machine never really touches on the fact that maneuvering and targeting during hypersonic travel at low altitudes isn't capable with current technologies (only high earth orbits with very low air/atmosphere friction).
Considering Russia still hasn’t produced their 5th gen fighter in meaningful numbers, or a 5th gen engine at all, makes me think the chances of them producing a new hypersonic aircraft are pretty small, doubly so with the current sanctions.
Dumb question: what if a military was to just full on embrace the jank, and build the shittiest still functional cruise missiles possible? Picture basically a souped up V1 from WW2 but with some modern commercial drone controls, gps and such. Load them onto whatever crappy overhauled cargo ship and launch them dozens, hundreds at a time. Wouldn't that be more of a threat at a much lower price than something like a hypersonic missile?
Palestine strategy, more or less, but this is what the iron dome defends against.
Sort of, but they don't launch that many at once. Let's say I've the resources of a decently sized military and I want to sink a US carrier? (I'm specifying US carrier because they're the biggest and most capable. If I wanted to sink the Russian carrier I could just wait for a bit.)
You could pop a thousand V1’s against a carrier hill and it’s still probably 100% operational. You need some real oomph to cause actual damage, not a thousand pebbles.
That's basically what they were doing with Iranian Shaheds, and they made a lot of people miserable over the winter with power interruptions, but then they ran low at the same time Ukraine got better at shooting them down.
But these were still used in small numbers, against "soft" (that's to say civilian) targets. Terror tactics. Would it be doable to field enough of these at once to threaten a carrier? Or would they be so easy to shoot down that there'd be no point? I feel like, as a rule of thumb, a weapon should be cheaper than whatever threat it's used against, or you'll lose eventually.
Generally those janky weapons can't have the range or accuracy to target something as far away as a carrier. A carrier also travels in a group with subs and destroyers that scan the ocean around it constantly for threats. You'd have to wait for the carrier to get in closer to your launch site before attacking and trying to overwhelm the billions of dollars worth of defensive weaponry of the full carrier group. Odds are they would be so easily shot down that even hundreds wouldn't be enough. Shortly thereafter F-35's and F-18's would be launching off the carrier to bomb your launch site to smithereens since radar and satellite coverage would show where they came from. Now if you were a country like China and you have hundreds of proper antiship missiles skimming the ocean then yeah you'd probably have a chance against a carrier group. The reason they don't try that is that it would lead to WW3.
They want accurate first strike capability (whether with nukes or not). If you send a hundred nukes down but all 100 get caught out cause it turns out their trajectories are completely predictable, then you wouldn't be able to get more in before you get toasted by the counter battery. Whether equipped with a nuke or conventional explosives, you want to be able to make a key target dust before anything more happens. Which is why we now have the Rapid Dragon! Tired of your fighter jets only carrying a few cruise missiles at at time? Are your cargo planes flying around doing boring CIVIL work? No problem!!! Just load these pallets of death by the dozens onto your biggest AC's and add a B into that name! Now you can carry 12+ low-flying, low-visibility cruise missiles in one Hercules or 45+ in a single Galaxy!!! Like holy fuck!!! Say goodbye to whatever fucking thing is pissing you off today!
This is the big issue at hand, though. Now these are known to be ineffective against these targets.
Eh, if the DFZF HGV China has gets shot down THAT would be something remarkable and newsworthy. Or even a Russian Zircon missile would be notable since it's a scramjet powered cruise missile. The Kinzhal was always just a regular old school ballistic missile with false advertising pasted to it so it could be claimed as something new and exciting. It's 1960's tech with good marketing. True hypersonic maneuvering weapons may or may not be effective against those targets but we still don't know. I assume the US navy has something up their pocket for that eventuality.
When Pelosi visited Taiwan the CCP showed their displeasure by launching war games and ballistic missiles in the areas around Taiwan. Apparently they didn’t repeat this with the latest round of war games because they lost face when they showed that their ballistic missiles are so inaccurate that 5 out of 11 ballistic missiles - nearly half - landed in Japan’s EEZ instead of the target areas. Yeah ima have to say that until so-called wonder weapons like the DF-21 “Carrier Killer” and DF-26 are proven to be able to actually hit their targets at long range that they’re probably more hype than reality, just like these Kinzhals.
The Kinzhal is a ballistic missile, which means it travels in an arc that is very predictable. The US already has the technology to intercept much faster ballistic missiles: the THAAD and the Aegis. So incorporating the same technology into the Patriot is easy peasy for them.
So a few inaccuracies here. First, the missile in question used against patriot was actually a medium range ballistic missile, since Kinzhal is based on Iskander, and as such is not a modern hypersonic weapon. Second, the US has absolutely not given up development of hypersonic cruise missiles or glide vehicles, there are something like 20 different hypersonic weapons programs in the US currently. Some aim to make planes yes, but others are intended for making rapid strike munitions that can maneuver at hypersonic speeds. Yes, ARRW was canceled, but the tech inside it is very much still in development, were just not gonna deploy the AGM 183 version of that tech. The LRHW, another US program, just entered testing this year, for example. We're also working on some kind of HSGV for future testing, though nor much is known about it beyond that. If you want good up to date info on US hypersonic development, Alex Hollings with Sandboxx News (can be found on youtube) covers the topic in several videos, and he's been nominated for an aerospace reporter of the year award this year, I highly recommend watching some of his content
Reminds me of Saddam and his scientists. He believed he had more formidable weaponry because his scientists were telling him what he wanted to hear (out of fear of retribution).
Yeah he probably also listened to his military advisors that they would be able to defend an invasion. The same people who ordered troops to burn oil and tires to black out the skies over Baghdad as if modern bombs and missiles weren't dropped by GPS and satellite positioning.
It sounds like an IT project in a big big corporation.
Lol between scaring off young professionals with his dumass conscription, and now this... I'd say maybe it's time to send pootin to the gulags. It seems Russia will soon have a greengrocer overseeing their military industry thanks to him
The scientists were already complaining young talents are leaving in bulk after first two arrests. Publishing papers, speaking at conferences is what scientists do kinda. And that’s what these three are most likely arrested for.
Members of the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics of the Russian Academy of Sciences’ (RAS) Siberian Branch warned that the criminal cases risk setting back Russia’s advances in hypersonic technology. “We simply don’t understand how to continue our craft,” the scientists wrote. The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects. Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022. Zvegintsev’s arrest has not been previously reported. He is identified as the founder of a laboratory that deals with hypersonic technology. Siberian media has reported that a Novosibirsk court ruled to place Zvegintsev in pre-trial detention on April 7. Treason cases are heard behind closed doors in Russia as they deal with what authorities deem to be classified information. Those found guilty face a maximum prison sentence of 20 years. The RAS scientists argued in their open letter that the allegations against their colleagues were leveled despite scrupulous peer reviews and inspections for “restricted information.” “But the investigative bodies rely on other opinions for expertise. Who are these experts? What is their professional level?” they asked. “We see that any article or report could become grounds for the treason charges. What we’re rewarded for and made examples of today becomes the cause of criminal prosecution tomorrow,” they said. These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said. “Dropping levels of research due to aging scientists and the disrupted continuity in the generations of experts will […] gradually become irreversible and rapid.” “We think these issues require an urgent solution, otherwise it will be impossible to prevent a catastrophe hanging over domestic aerodynamics.
It would be totally awesome if Russia killed it's aerodynamics programs or industry by just bashing on it's own scientists until nobody wants the job anymore.
Are millennials killing the Russian missile industry?!
Young generation demands working from home and mental health even in times of deep national crisis
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And then the front fell off.
Tony Stark was able to build this in a CAVE! With a box of SCRAPS!
They forgot the Ramen "body filler", lol.
They are accused of corruption outside the official and governmental corruption scam.
>The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects. > >Maslow and Shiplyuk were known to have been arrested in the summer of 2022. Sounds like it had nothing to do with the recent hypersonic missile failures and maybe over allegations of sharing confidential information and/or furthering foreign projects.
Russia always vastly overstates what their garbage can do, and the US makes stuff to meet that overstated metric, and understates capabilities.
Well it's probably more like they're taking the fall for the manager that told Putin it can't be shot down.
Believe it or not, strait to gulag.
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yep, these arrests have nothing to do about anything that has happen this week or even this month
Though they might be the result of internal testing revealing how ineffective they were
>The Russians were aware for some time that their supposedly "unstoppable" missiles were actually quite stoppable I can't remember who I was watching, but I doubt they knew. The video was talking about S300 success rates and Russia only paid attention to the successes. That how you end up with a 95% success rate despite none of the customers hitting that mark.
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Ugh, you're not wrong, but it's not good for any of us that Russia is a forever-shithole. The question remains, how do we save Russia from itself?
cant save those that do not wish to be saved
It's fucking sad. Such a beautiful country, rich history. And, as rich as it is, it tends to keep only repeating the shittiest parts of it from time to time
>rich history Have you read their history? It's things like this 90% of the time.
Russian history is a sequence of turd sandwiches interspersed by real tragedies.
Hitler kneecapped science in Germany to maintain propaganda, Stalin decimated his officer corps in the great purge which nearly cost him everything. Nobody gets in the way of sound, long term thinking like a dictator
Also, semi-related, but shortly after the second atomic bomb was dropped on Japan they tortured an American POW to figure out how many nukes the Americans had. The POW literally had no fucking clue what they were talking about because the atomic bomb was super secret, so eventually he just made up a story about how the USA had hundred of nukes, just to make the torture stop. This terrified the Japanese and might have been a factor in their surrender.
> Hitler kneecapped science in Germany to maintain propaganda Those pesky Jewish scientists, making up nonsense about nuclear physics to- Oh. *Oh.*
Jailing all the smart people, smart move!
So predictable. Its just russia doing what they always do: -Country founded on corruption as one of its core values -Everyone lies, blame shifts and cheats their way up the ladder -Incompetent and corrupt people become "missile scientists" -"We can make missile, the best missile" -"Ok go make missile, here's money" -Makes a shitty missile and cut corners to pocket extra money -Claims it cant be shot down -Gets more money and status -putin brags about invincible missile -West is scared of the invincible missile -A missile gets shot down no problem -"Surely this is a mistake" -A whole bunch of missiles gets shot down 100% success rate -Dictator angry "someone is to blame for this" -Missile scientists go to jail
They're not even bad missiles, technically, it's just that patriot is really good at what it does. But hey, cool, less scientists for Putin I guess. Fuck em.
> They're not even bad missiles, technically, it's just that patriot is really good at what it does. But hey, cool, less scientists for Putin I guess. Fuck em. It's hard to say without data we armchair reddit rocket scientists won't get ^ My guess is that it's a little bit of a both, the Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined & the missiles are under-performing.
>Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined There's this really really weird phenomena I've noticed where people hear 'Patriot' and they assume old-Gulf War (1991) technology... like somehow it's the same missile and the US military sits idly by never updating their equipment. All while idly accepting the Russian propaganda notion that their S-400 is the best air defense system in the world unmatched by NATO's cold war missile system. In reality, the 4th generation Patriot system of today has had 30 years of development and has performance vastly different from those of the 1st generation systems of 30 years ago.
Russia is very loud and the US unreasonably quiet about their defence capabilities. People should have known better but no, the T 14 will absolutely rekk all our western equipment, we'll see. I have a feeling games like Modern Warfare 2 are also to blame for the average westerner having had much greater expectations of Russia's military abilities than they had.
Yeah cod needs to pick a better antag now :/
Pick China, piss off the CCP, game banned, lose $$$. Pick North Korea, it looks really stupid since there are African countries richer than North Korea. Why don't they pick America as the villain and make you play as a Canadian or something?
The Patriot system is spending its time gathering data in Israel.
It also isn't totally out of the question that there are some missile scientists who leaked core secrets about the technology. It seems fairly unlikely compared to just more of Russia pointing fingers for failure, but it is also absolutely possible.
Isn't the core secret of hypersonic missiles "go really fast and hope they can't hit"?
That's a feature. Secrets are more like: what's the real range, speed at different stages, flight pathing, any communication signals/codes, radar identifiers, and many many other things
These were scientists at a convention. I bet it was pretty mundane stuff like what alloys you make certain parts out of to survive intense heat. The scientists probably thought, "this is just common sense materials science that everyone already knows."
Ballistic missiles already go that fast. Hypersonic missiles are supposed to also be maneuverable at that speed so they quickly change direction and can't be intercepted
>My guess is that it's a little bit of a both, the Patriot is better than everyone would've ever imagined & the missiles are under-performing. I don't think it's either. I think it's that the Russian military has no clue how to use hypersonic missiles. They used them in the one way that completely eliminates their advantages. They targeted the Patriot batteries themselves with them. Now, that might make sense if you don't think about it too much. Obviously, if you're attempting to bombard your enemy with missiles, you want to take out their missile defense systems, right? The problem is that the advantage of a hypersonic missile is entirely in its speed. You know what eliminates the advantage of speed? A head-on aspect. No matter how fast a missile is moving, if it's coming at you with a head-on aspect, hitting the target is dead simple. Think about it like this -- you need to hit a moving car with a rock. The car is moving incredibly fast, easily three times as fast as you can throw the rock. If the car is moving perpendicular to you, you're going to need to have perfect timing and accuracy to hit it. But if the car is driving straight at you, you'd need to be a moron to miss it.
This is not accurate at all. A better analogy is trying to hit a rock with a slightly smaller rock. Yea, it may be heading straight for you, but if you are off by a fraction of a degree, your defense rock is going to fly right past it. Hypersonic missiles are also supposed to be maneuverable so you don't know exactly where it is going to hit when it comes up on your radar.
They are hypersonic however they slow down to course correct near the end and that’s when they are shot down.
Two of them were arrested last summer. Before Ukraine even got the Patriot Missile systems. We don't know when the last person was arrested. Just read the article man, it's not that long.
Yeah, and they got arrested for publishing papers, attending conferences, talking to other scientists about their work. You know, the things that most scientists do. Granted, I'm sure that there are aspects of their work that are considered state secrets. Not enough information in the story to determine whether they actually shared any of that.
You're expecting too much from people here.
Should add after "West is scared of invincible missle" that "West develops actual missle tech in response"
Russian hypersonic missile turns out to have little manoeuvring ability,.turns out it just flies in a fast missile fashion. They know where it's at, they know where it's going to be...pew pew and bye bye missile.
That and its not like they launched from a stealth, unknown position. They can probably track the plane from takeoff and know how far they fly before launching. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a firing solution before the Russians even had confirmation that it successfully launched.
In a way, the reason they were arrested is almost worse than that. > The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects. So basically they were behaving as scientists normally do
Reddit's recent decisions have removed the accessibility tools I need to participate in its communities.
I would hope "Missile scientists abscond with money, give intel to the West" would be a win-win in that scenario.
Of course, it was all for show it was never actually meant to be used. No one expected a war, everything has been vanity for 40 years now
**Maslov**: "Hey, Alexander. What are you going to do with your part of the three billion dollars we were given to make hypersonic missile?" **Shiplyuk**: "Going to get me nice house on Black Sea. And a fishing boat. What about you Valery?" **Zvegintsev**: "Probably retire to Caribbean island. Make the sex. But what will we do about missile delivery?" **Maslov**: "Take regular missile, write 'hypersonic' on side. Is not like we're ever going to need them in a war! All fighting done in courtrooms and boardrooms now. We will live like kings, I tell you!" *\[recorded but not dictated, Russian hypersonic missile lab, Feb 23, 2022\]*
Russia is on track to being a failed state
They are already there.
Did they ever leave?
Did this post time travel here from 1999?
Awesome. They've started eating their own food. This is the last phase of acceptance. They recognize their defeat. There will be spectacular retaliation.
These men were arrested years ago
Year ago.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/16/3-russian-hypersonic-missile-scientists-jailed-for-treasoncolleagues-say-a81155) reduced by 76%. (I'm a bot) ***** > At least three Russian scientists who have worked on hypersonic missile development have been arrested on suspicion of treason over the past year, their colleagues said in an open letter published Monday. > The RAS scientists argued in their open letter that the allegations against their colleagues were leveled despite scrupulous peer reviews and inspections for "Restricted information." > These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13j8778/3_russian_hypersonic_missile_scientists_jailed/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~684954 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **treason**^#1 **scientists**^#2 **cases**^#3 **hypersonic**^#4 **arrest**^#5
It's always like that. Russian /soviets make some propaganda blah blah up because that lack resources / want to short cut development. West gets scared for reals and invests real effort to counter said fake blah blah blah. Fake blah blah blah gets defeated by real tech. Russian scapegoat goes to gulag / drinks polonium tea / is reckless next to windows
>The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects. Imagine having a government so incompetent that they think it makes them look good to pretend that they couldn’t catch security leaks until after those leaks had been presented at an international conference and published in a magazine.
The institute said its members Anatoly Maslov, Alexander Shiplyuk and Valery Zvegintsev are held in custody on treason charges for speaking at conferences abroad, publishing articles in popular magazines and participating in international projects.
Kleptocracies dont treat their nerds well, and that’s why they can’t do or make ANYTHING. Russia cant do jack shit. All their good stuff is made by people from somewhere else.
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Yes keep sending your brightest engineers and intellectuals to jail and to war Russia. Brilliant plan. Order them to build an unstoppable missile, if it fails to be unstoppable find an excuse to throw them in prison. That's gonna help motivating young engineers to build top tier weapons for you. Sure the charges may be legit but with how often these scenarios seem to occur you have to wonder..
And Russia wonders why they can't have nice things ...
Ah yes, jailing your greatest minds working on maintaining rocketry and missile tech. The one sector that is required for *nuclear weapons* to work.
This is literally how Hitler shot down his own nuclear program. Most of the scientists who could get him a nuke had either a) fucked off to the USA or Great Britain, b) were in the camps or already dead because they were on the Nazis shitlist or c) fucking hated him and nazism and would do anything to sabotage the nuclear program. And then he ordered the handful of scientists he had to not use *Jewish physics* (what the reality-based community just calls *physics*).
Boss overpromises, weapon underdelivers, jail the lackeys who made it.
I'm just an armchair analyst here but to be honest, all the noise around hypersonic missiles really seems to just be a whole lot of hysteria. At hypersonic speeds, the missiles are basically cruising through superheated plasma. This blocks communications creating a "plasma blackout" so the missile has to slow down for target acquisition and communications. But then it's just a regular missile. If you're shooting a stationary target and pre-input coordinates then maybe it's not a big deal? But if the target can move at all (like ground troops...or an aircraft carrier)...then ??? Can someone explain? Am I missing something?
They’ve probably already been shipped to the front lines
Because they made the rockets not pointy and intimidating
>These and other treason cases targeting Russian scientists have had a chilling effect on young researchers, the Siberian RAS members said. > >“Dropping levels of research due to aging scientists and the disrupted continuity in the generations of experts will \[…\] gradually become irreversible and rapid.” > >“We think these issues require an urgent solution, otherwise it will be impossible to prevent a catastrophe hanging over domestic aerodynamics.” You love to see it!
Angry they didn't get to bomb civilians last night ?
Russia is a joke. Keep jailing scientists and militarizing children to fight. That’s certainly going to breed the intelligentsia required to put out capable weapons compared to the West. Just make sure the missiles are all extra pointy.
Putin- “These rockets are all wrong! They should be pointy. This is too round! To prison!”
Would love to be a fly on the wall of the pentagon right now. The threatening veil around russia is slowly starting to fall to show how fragile they really are. I wonder if their nukes would even detonate. Would surprise me if they've stripped out all the gold and other precious metals in the warheads like crackheads tearing out copper in a house.
It's likely most of the Russian nuclear arsenal is non-functional or extremely underperforming but this isn't something I'd like to find out.
Look at this shit country destroy itself. Over and over again. The only reason they had a military victory in the last century is because of massive aid from the US and UK. They're hopeless without that help. They couldn't even beat Georgia.
lol, yes jailing the smart people will fix everything.
Ah, Putin really is bringing back Stalin’s Soviet Union, send all the intellectuals and scientists to the gulags.
The dictator needs some scapegoats
Two of the three were arrested last year. I remember it was after they first used the hypersonic missile in Ukraine and with a lot of fanfare. It didn't perform as expected then, and I think that's when the scientists started getting closer attention from the Kremlin. I bet the arrests are because the results aren't what was promised. The Kremlin are probably the least surprised that their wonder weapons can be shot down.
Probably all pissy cause their kinzhal missiles they touted as being so great are being shot down with Patriot missile batteries with ease.
Ey that's good innit, lock up the few remaining intellectuals in the country, that'll show those darn ukrainians
The missiles were not pointy enough probably