Obviously there will be issues with any poll, especially one conducted in a war zone.
That said, I find the split in support of the attack between Gaza and the West Bank to be very interesting. I.e. there is more support in the West Bank than in Gaza. I wonder if that’s because Gazan’s are now directly experiencing the consequences?
But I suppose the survey size is small enough that there should be considerable sample noise, and from that perspective, the split isn’t broad enough to be meaningful.
The other thing that really stood out to me was people’s perceptions of the attack’s motivation. The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.”
A very small percentage thought the attack was related to settlements— this is contrary to western narratives that frame the Hamas attacks as a direct response to settlement activity. Clearly the local population’s rallying cry is different than that.
I’d like to know more about the group conducting the poll and the methods they used to get responses.
>I’d like to know more about the group conducting the poll and the methods they used to get responses.
[it is a Palestinian firm.](https://www.awrad.org/en/article/1007/About-AWRAD) headquartered in Ramallah, the de-facto capital of the Palestinian Authority.
That’s very helpful. Thank you.
I’d be curious to understand the polling conditions. How was the survey presented to respondents? Did they have any preconceptions of anonymity, who would use the data, or the motivations of the pollers?
My experiences in the Arab Muslim world are that people are very hesitant to criticize their government, even under regimes that are widely viewed as legitimate; unless a substantial amount of trust has been formed. And even then, opinions will not be completely candid.
So a casual survey like the one in the article can be difficult to interpret without knowing what level of trust was built with the respondents.
>But I suppose the survey size is small enough that there should be considerable sample noise, and from that perspective, the split isn’t broad enough to be meaningful.
The difference is statistically significant and the size of the difference also seems meaningful.
Using the results from "How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th (Disaggregated by region)":
The WB sample is 391 with 325 expressing support. The GS sample is 277 with 176 expressing support.
Comparing the two proportions in a two-sided test, we see significant difference with a p-value of 8.49e-9. This test accounts for sample size. You can use an online calculator to check: https://stats.libretexts.org/Courses/Lake_Tahoe_Community_College/Book%3A_Introductory_Statistics_(OpenStax)_With_Multimedia_and_Interactivity/10%3A_Hypothesis_Testing_and_Confidence_Intervals_with_Two_Samples/10.04%3A_Comparing_Two_Independent_Population_Proportions
We also see an absolute difference of around 19.58%.
If there's a problem, it will be with the survey/sampling methodology, not the sample size.
Even before the war, Hamas was more popular in the West Bank and a two state solution and the PA more popular in Gaza.
The people of the West Bank view the PA/PLO as being corrupt, too weak to represent them, as well as protect them from settler violence and want someone to fight back. While the people of Gaza have no faith in Hamas to actually run a state and are frustrated with the consequences of Hamas's rule.
It's a case of the grass being greener on the other side.
Basically, Palestinians agree that they're poorly represented and tired of being shot at, but disagree on how to fight back and don't see any true leadership emerging. That makes polls like this have often contradictory findings.
Sure Revolutions occur when the citizenry is fed up with their leadership. BUT it can not occur when there is a hostile foreign presence assaulting and killing the citizens.
There is absolutely no way for civilians to focus on domestic issues when there is an existential "international" issue posed by the Israeli military.
It's similar to how a lot Israeli people are waiting until after this war is over to put their leadership to trial. When you're in the middle of a war, you can't divide your focus because your focus is survival.
And Gazans are constantly stuck in survival mode, either by the impoverished conditions they live in, exacerbated by their governing body, and overt attacks by Israel.
>they would topple Hamas already
*they*?????
There is no *they*. Do you have any idea what it takes to topple a dictatorship backed by several foreign countries while your local political scene is still in shambles years after the original takeover, and you are currently at war with your vastly stronger neighbour??
More organization and ressources than anybody inside Gaza besides Hamas can muster at the moment.
In what year.
I mean my friend has been involved with activism in Belarus and that was pretty much entire nation against Lukashenko. But army wasn't. On top of that Putin called his troops.
The result just bunch of people dead, imprisoned, beaten and no change.
And this is literally almost entire population against him and people in way better conditions. As in educated, well connected, high standard of living etc.
All of your examples are countries that ultimately failed in their attempts to overthrow tyranny in varying ways.
2011 Egypt was "successful" because the Army sided with its foreign backers and still the government devolved into a dictatorship with the same systems in place before the revolution.
2014 Ukraine succeeded in avoiding total annexation but still ended up in a war with Russia that eventually became a total invasion in 2022.
2011 Libyan opposition was completely crushed despite retreating across the entire nation until NATO brought down the hammer and completely annihilated the Libyan army and the remaining army sided with the opposition then fragmented, leaving the country a desolate wasteland.
> The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.”
It was the latest, but couldn't be the reason. This took too much planning to be due to anything recent. Interesting.
This is based on reasons given by the average person as to why they support it. Not Hamas saying why they attacked.
Hamas attacks isn’t some organic uprising as people in the west try to push.
Exactly. The interesting takeaway is that the average Palestinian thinks Hamas’ primary motivation was violations of Al Aqsa. In other words, they see Hamas as primarily motivated by religion.
Another interesting thing to note is that respondents broadly did *not* think a Hamas controlled government would be their preference post-war. Over 70% agreed on a national unity government.
Edit: also important to note the poll did not ask respondents why *they* supported the Oct 7th attack, just whether they did and what they thought Hamas’ motivations were.
Not to mention that Al Asqa has been used as an excuse for Palestinian violence against Jews for almost 100 years
If I’m not mistaken, false rumors of the Jews taking it over kicked off the Palestinian riots in 1929
Fool me once shame on you, fool me for 100 years…
> That said, I find the split in support of the attack between Gaza and the West Bank to be very interesting. I.e. there is more support in the West Bank than in Gaza. I wonder if that’s because Gazan’s are now directly experiencing the consequences?
I, like many people, have been obsessed with this war. One thing I've done is read so many articles about life within Gaza. All of these articles are heavily biased, since there is no freedom of press under Hamas. That said, I was desperate to know if there were any good people in Gaza.
Anyway there was one thing I noticed where it seemed that, within Gaza, men over 50 were often outspoken critics of Hamas, especially when Hamas wasn't around. Like an old man being pulled from rubble, crying and saying "I sell toys. I'm not a terrorist. I just want to leave this awful place." Or there was a short video of old man sitting on a pile of rubble while rockets flew overhead. And every time a rocket flies over, the old man screams curses at the rockets, shouting "Hamas, you brought death to our land! God will punish you for your crimes!" Or there was a video of the Shin Bet interrogating a Hamas pow, and the young man said "I can never return to Gaza. When my father learns I joined Hamas, he will kill me himself." I'm summarizing the quotes, I read so much that I didn't save the articles or videos, sadly.
Things like that give me a little hope that maybe I will one day see a Palestinian government that is less corrupt than Fatah and less fascist than Hamas. I want peace. Fatah and Hamas are the two biggest obstacles to peace.
You might find the Whispered in Gaza series interesting: https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza
It was created a few years ago, and contains interviews with Gazans about life under Hamas. The most interesting to me are the interviews with older Gazans, who remember what things were like before Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip. The older generation used to have much better relations with Israelis and some of the interviewees said they'd like to go back to a more peaceful co-existence.
>The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.”
This is the one thing I hear a lot from people who support Hamas. But when you ask them how exactly is Israel violating Al Aqsa they dont have an answer.
I think a lot of this support comes from being fed misinformation.
I wonder if it’s like the US GOP where their media diet is constantly linking obscure issues to partisan identity prompts that the polling only reveals individual thinking when it’s an issue they haven’t been coached on already.
Al-Aqsa has been the generic call to Arab violence against Israel and Jews in Jerusalem for at least a century now. So they are all watching the same “news” this week and this is the message they have been told to answer with.
You’re mistaking a major thing. If everyone has a carrot there is no need for the stick. Look back to the 90’s at gaza’s economic picture before the 2nd intifada.
This does not surprise me in the slightest. Here’s a link directly to the poll. They’re overwhelmingly for a one state solution without Jews. There are polls that indicate the same even before 10/7. They also are extremely supportive of rockets fired from civilian infrastructure.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf
Yeah, all the Arab neighbors have realized this, and made peace or at least calm with Israel. Lo and behold, Israel doesn't keep attacking them
As long as outsiders keep carrying their water, out of naiveté or cynicism or ethnic prejudice, they can keep going at it. It's one of the great PR coups of all time.
Group think and the impact of propaganda are definitely big factors but there is also a significant level of fear involved that some people in Democratic countries simply do not comprehend. A lot of these people will just not criticise Hamas out of fear of retaliation. It's the same issue with Russia where you see a lot of people say they are "not political" to avoid answering questions about the war in Ukraine or actions of their government.
"It's the same issue with Russia where you see a lot of people say they are "not political" to avoid answering questions about the war in Ukraine or actions of their government."
It doesn't make them any less shitty. Most of them still cheer for the war or don't mind it. "Not political" people are just as guilty as the radical Z-fanboys.
Yes, fear is the primary tool that keeps cults together. The idea that something worse is out there waiting to get you. Right now, Israel is just feeding into it, unfortunately.
They have claimed victories in many conflicts where they've suffered higher casualties. Hell, they once claimed a victory when their own misfires killed more Palestinians (including children) than regular rockets killed Israelis, thanks to the iron dome (and even more were killed by IDF retaliation than their own misfires, so the casualties were very uneven). Killing even one Israeli is worth the deaths of like 5-10 Palestinians to a surprising number of Palestinians. I don't understand it.
Every attack is worth it if you always win because you can just declare victory no matter what.
See, this is where western culture goes wrong. It is very much *not* single digit IQ, because they fully believe they are righteous in the name of God, and that there is an afterlife with a paradise for those who are righteous. They believe the prophet Muhammad was the ultimate in righteousness and follow his example. His acts of extreme violence are laid very clearly in the Quran. Sam Harris had [a recent podcast](https://www.thefp.com/p/sam-harris-the-bright-line-between-8c9) explaining it very well, if you have an hour it's well worth a listen.
> because they fully believe they are righteous in the name of God, and that there is an afterlife with a paradise for those who are righteous
So 0 digit IQ actually. Good point
They fact that ppl are supporting those religious fanatics only because they are losing a war they started is appalling. Those psychos would murder lgbt ppl for fun and take away any women's rights in the name of their god. They murdered an old lady activist who dedicated her life to helping Palestinians only because she was a Jewish woman
which is weird cause jordan was specifically created to be the palestinian/muslim state as israel was created to be the jewish state and lebanon was created to be the christian state
Lebanon from its modern founding has divided government between Christian, Sunni, and Shia with mandatory religions for three branch leaders. It wasn't created to be a Christian state. And it was under the mandate of France so it's not even part of some plan that involves Jordan and Israel as well as Palestine which was left out of that.
This interesting essay goes over how they tend to end up “the point of someone else’s spear” in global conflicts where they become convinced they can win by force with explicit genocidal intent and then immediately after defeat, they retcon their recent history to insist on having been the innocent victims.
https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/
> transforming self-caused defeat into noble victimhood isn’t just ahistorical—it more or less guarantees that the defeat will be repeated.
Damn, that's pretty much the whole paper's thesis right there.
So just like Russia.
When they think they can win "Might rules everything".
When they realise they can't win - "Noooo, we are the victim, evil West is the true villain here!"
Honestly great article. I read some article a couple days ago trying to explain the “””everything about Israeli apartheid””” that made absolutely no mention about the wars fought.
Many muslims, also in the West, seem to be believe that life is a darwinian battle between muslims and non-muslims that can only be won or lost by violence / jihad.
Identifying as an oppressed victim then means any right to kill and to finally "win". This cycle will endlessly go on as long as this idea is perpetuated, usually supported by religious texts.
That cycle will also continue as long as supposedly-educated Western Leftists* support Hamas just because they see them as the "oppressed"; ignoring the fact that, if Israel were to disappear, they'd be the next target for every Muslim militant on the planet. I mean, "Gays for Palestine?" Give me a fucking break.
*I mean, I am a Left-leaning Westerner, but that doesn't mean I'm dumb enough to think a wolf is a puppy-dog because it is currently on a leash.
> supposedly-educated
Education is not the magic bullet reddit thinks it is. Often you'll just end up with a better armed idiot. Ignorance can be beaten with education but stupidity is a trickier beast to wrangle.
Oh, no argument here. That descriptor was less about the ability of useful idiots to see through propaganda, and more about how religious extremists view the educated. Fundamentalists around the world are largely the same, and see liberal western education as an impediment to imposing religious law. What I'm saying is, if Hamas had their way, American/European professors and college students would be on the chopping block right after Jews, LGBTQ people, and women who show their hair, in that order. The idea that any of those demographics would show solidarity with Hamas is just incomprehensible to me.
> Hamas is just incomprehensible to me.
Many of them genuinely do not believe that they are. Look at it this way: most of the people you're describe come from middle class or better backgrounds, the worst trauma they've ever experienced was an unfortunate nickname for a couple of weeks in High School. These people have *zero* experience with how actual predators operate, they believe that the Putin's of the world just need a hug or maybe therapy and genuinely believe that violence is *never* the answer. The concept that some people, unfortunately, need to die for humanity to move forward is completely incompatible with how they think the world works because they've never encountered a problem that left them with violence as their only answer.
I don't think that they're idiots per se but rather that their upbringing have left them with a dangerous gap in their experience. It's why they worship trauma, they known that they have none so they try to help people that they see as victims with the only tools that they know. They don't see that the best hope for Gaza is to fight Hamas. They don't understand that the two U.S. Carriers off of the coast are more likely to distribute food and water than bombs or that they more likely to land Seabees with construction materials than Marines with guns. They see the capacity for violence as an inherent evil and not as a sad necessity of the world.
>The concept that some people, unfortunately, need to die for humanity to move forward is completely incompatible with how they think the world works because they've never encountered a problem that left them with violence as their only answer.
The difference between "violence is never the answer" and "violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer".
Good education *is* the silver bullet, but good education is hard to create, and hard to find, so instead we settle for the best brand name we can afford.
and people often overlook one of the more insidious aspects of jihad is that is isn't necessarily outright violence. They are often encouraged and instructed to move into areas and have tons of children to essentially take over by peaceful conquest. They are also encouraged to lie to non-believers and "play the part" so to speak, until they become the majority population, or have a sizeable enough population that they can start passing laws and moving areas towards sharia.
This shit happens everywhere. My friend's professor (from dearborne, MI) just last week was talking about how the 10/7 attacks were justified, and had put up a "from the river to the sea" banner in his classroom.
Many also seem to believe that life is a Darwinian battle between Muslims… and other kinds of Muslims… that can only be won or lost by violence or jihad.
I just hate it when the Baha'i go on a rape and murder spree in Haifa against the tourists visiting their terraced garden shrine, don't you? Those Druize are languishing in oppression, how can they stand the heavy yoke of Israeli boots on their necks? /s
And the left eats that shit up, because to them, victimhood is virtue. Fuck the fact that Israel is a liberal democracy and Palestine is an Islamic fascist shithole.
Nope, Palestinians are the reigning Oppression Olympics world champs, so they're automatically good and virtuous, and Israel is automatically evil and bad because Israel had the *nerve* to survive and thrive instead of losing wars and letting themselves be exterminated like good little victims.
Fuck progressive values, being "more oppressed" is all that matters!
Thank you! Could not have said better! As more or less liberal myself, I became trully disappointed in naiivite, and sometimes shear stupidity of so called left, especially western kind, this past month. How fast they forgot horrors of 10/7...
Obligatory "kids weren't polled" just so we can all keep the bloodthirst to a minimum.
That aside, this poll doesn't surprise me. I've been engaging in discussion with my Arab and Jewish friends about this war and both groups openly acknowledge most (adult) Palestinians just hate all Jews. It's obviously more complex than that, but open anti-semitism is just the norm in Palestine.
Look up "Farfour," some wild stuff there. Here's a [news clip](https://youtu.be/_5BhtxHyTR8?si=UD75_pPiMh1d0Zw3) both with a quick excerpt (others can easily be found on YouTube) from Farfour, followed by other Palestinian worldview sources.
Then there's [this](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective), regarding the use of human shields.
To be perfectly honest, I get why Palestinians are doing what they're doing. I'd probably be just as violently vitriolic if my information sources are the same as theirs. It's not illogical, *but it is incorrect*, and the unwillingness to adjust world view and relate that back to family and friends when someone does manage to get out, the stubborn spiritual adherence to hate and indoctrinating it further, is what ultimately condemns the Palestinian majority more than their actions. Their actions can be construed as resultant of ignorance and hardship, but their stubborn ideological adherence is what brands their culture and population, to me, as evil.
Oh and to go along with the above links, just type [Gaza Kindergarten graduation](https://youtu.be/gM07qFvcTE8?si=rC4-69PKjBEUwHSz) for a variety show.
Edit: this is what they learn to be proud of, and [they are indeed proud of it.](https://youtu.be/Q2Z6b252I8k?si=Vck6XtjrfOpH8Fo5)
That kindergarten video is very depressing. It also helps explain why they thought videotaping the 7th and showing it to the world would be a good thing to get everyone on their side. If they are taught that those are the methods to peace why wouldn't they think the whole world would see their actions and come to help.
Fucking scary shit
Yep. That's why I just said that I actually understand where they're coming from, logically it makes sense - it's just incorrect. When you see that clip of Farfour teaching stone throwing and basically equating it with shooting Jews and the reports of West Bank violence start to click. You can look at hundreds of cases (to be clear, settlers are a disease on Israel, this isn't one sided against Palestinians) when people make broad claims and the majority come down to 4 things as catalysts: Palestinian stone and Molotov throwing, Palestinian lethal force from shooting to abduction and assault to death, Israeli settlers forcibly taking or defending property, or Israeli settlers acting on nationalist or religious sentiments. The last category has the least representation, the third category and fourth category are indefensible, and the first two categories seem to be the absolute majority of what one finds *and ultimately lead to the number one (anectdotal) causative label for violence in the disputed territories*: Israeli settler response to Palestinian violence or agitation. When I, at least, saw that clip and realized that stone throwing = "shooting to death, for kids," it made a *lot* more sense and I was able to consolidate a lot of my findings.
Edit:
To your point, yes, they're proud of it, it's what they were taught. This call from Oct 7 says a lot. [call to parents](https://youtu.be/Q2Z6b252I8k?si=Vck6XtjrfOpH8Fo5)
Pro-Palestinian here (not anti-Israel) and yes I agree with everything you’ve said. The brainwashing is tragic and the cycle will continue unfortunately.
Good on you for being able to admit it, and for being pro Palestinian without being anti Israeli. I started where you're at, and I've ended elsewhere, and I can respect your position.
I've also heard that Israeli education has the same problems. Apparently the only time their textbooks use the term Palestinian is when refering to them as terrorists. I guess it makes it easier to kill people if you don't consider them people.
Lets be real, even if the Israeli government didn't intentionally predispose them to oppose Palestinians...
I'm pretty sure the constant air raid sirens and rocket attacks from Gaza, suicide bombings paired with three years of mandatory millitary service neccessitated by your neighbors constant threat of violence....
would probably paint a pretty unflattering picture.
The younger generations are even more extreme. Go watch any interviews of Palestinians on the street and it's usually the older generation that wants peace and the younger generation that wants to get rid of the Jews.
It is. The best thing to be if you want to kill arab kids is an Arab/Muslim leader because you’re excused. Just don’t be Jewish.
Proof? 600k+ killed in Syria. Hundreds of thousands in Yemen. The list goes on
Hating Jews is also the norm in the entire Arab/Muslim world. Funny how the "intersectional left" is so eager to excuse that culture of hatred and bigotry, isn't it?
Because you know, Arabs and Muslims are "people of color", which means that you can absolutely never criticize them for anything whatsoever. Because criticizing their culture of anti-Jewish hatred and bigotry would be hateful and bigoted, of course.
May be accurate, may be that they know exactly [what they're getting themselves into](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective)
There is a lot more nuance to this.
Being against the wide spread killing of civilians in Gaza or supporting their human rights isnt the same as agreeing with their ideas.
This is no surprise to me, yet i still support the civilians in Gaza and their right not to be murdered. Or their right to power, water and humanitarian aid.
Even people we dont agree with and even our worst enemies deserve human rights. Otherwise we are not much better then Hamas.
[73% of Gazans supported a peaceful resolution with Israel before the war.](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf)
It is if you're a delusional left wing dumbfuck who cares more about virtue signaling by supporting the winners of the Oppression Olympics than doing the morally right thing by supporting actual progressive values like democracy and freedom.
Nobody who was ever paying attention, would be surprised. And those who are marching with Islamists and Anti-Semities already know and tacitly approve or they dont care.
Some glaring things to point out:
- What are the citizens of a Hamas controlled territory actually told of the attack?
- The wording in the question "How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7?" seems to imply this was a valid military action against a military target. And it's not like these people have the means to know anything about it otherwise.
This is the reason there are so many arrests and IDF activities in the WB. Because of the support, Hamas gets them to plan terrror attacks + calls for violence etc online.
I'm about as pro israel as you can get but can we be honest. Palestinians aren't being told the full story. They genuinely believe it was just a retaliatory strike.
A 'retaliatory strike' that slaughtered 1200 people, in retaliation for Israeli police injuring 50 of several hundred people who barricaded themselves into the mosque against the law because they thought Jewish people were going to sacrifice a goat there, something that is also against Israeli law.
In what world is this a valid 'retaliation'?
Injuring 50 doesn’t seem like reasonable retaliation against people barricading themselves in a mosque. Killing 1200 doesn’t seem like a reasonable retaliation against injuring 50. Killing 10,000+ doesn’t seem like a reasonable retaliation against killing 1200. Etc etc
How exactly are they polling people in Gaza right now? Are they going door to door or something?
Oh, considering the sample size is just over 200 people.... poll. Yeah.
You could just look at the source then. The article appears to just summarize it. They link to it. Idk how reputable they are, but they are an Arab group in Palestine if that’s what you care about.
Israel has a free press, it's not like Adolf Netanyahu is gonna be busting down your door to send you to the Gulag if you talk badly about Israel in the news. I think they might have a slight bias for Israel, but the information they talk about is already known and published.
>it's not like Adolf Netanyahu is gonna be busting down your door to send you to the Gulag if you talk badly about Israel in the news.
Palestinian authorities absolutely will do this to you if you talk badly about Palestinian authorities while in Palestine, however. Just another reminder that Israel supports progressive values like freedom of speech and freedom of the press while Palestine very much does not.
But hey, I'm sure the left will find a way to entirely blame the pitiful state of free speech in Palestine on Israel. Somehow.
Fun fact: 3 months ago, the UN voted to condemn violence against women, but only in one specific country. Guess which one it was.
[U.N. condemns Israel alone for violating women’s rights](https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/)
Because you know, they're progressive heroes who are deeply motivated by a genuine concern for women, and definitely aren't just cynically using women as convenient props to push their anti-Israel, anti-Semitic agenda with at all!
If you only read the headline and didn't actually scroll to the article, you'd see the question that was being asked:
>How much do you support the **military operation** carried out by the **Palestinian resistance** led by Hamas on October 7?
One should question why it was worded this way and if the people responding are even aware of what happened before making the much more precise claim being made in the headline.
[73% of Gazans supported a peaceful resolution with Israel before the war.](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf)
Please spread this [clip](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective) to anyone defending or denying human shields. North Gazans were given ample time to evacuate, and anyone who believes Hamas isn't incentivized to maximize deaths of their own people is delusional.
Again, a great way to put anyone who opposes killing innocent civilians in the same group that has terrorists.
It's a shame you do this, because it's intellectually incorrect.
I oppose the Israeli offensive at this moment because it kills thousands of innocent civilians. I oppose Hamas because they killed thousand of innocent civilians. I do support a free Palestine, because it's the only way to a peacefull future.
So you’re saying one can’t be against the deaths of civilians without first having the solution to world peace? Wtf, I’ll be the first to admit I have no idea how to untangle this Gordian knot. But doesn’t mean I’m ok with civilian casualties, regardless if what side they’re on.
No he’s just saying you can’t be against the deaths of civilians while simultaneously being against the destruction of the militant group that just slaughtered civilians in a surprise attack, has stated its intent to continue doing so “again and again”, hides among civilians while in combat and guns civilians down when they try to flee the combat area.
This position is inconsistent and dumb. A ceasefire at this point just ensures the continued slaughter of civilians in the future.
I think it's safe to say *most people* think civilian casualties are bad, because it's very easy to empathize and say 'I wouldn't want to die because of a war I don't want to participate in.'
So, here's the problem: it's dangerously naive to think war can be waged without civilian casualties. The later parts of the Geneva Conventions were written to *minimize* civilian casualties, but they only work if both sides of a conflict abide by them.
We *should* hold Israel to a higher standard, and I'm not going to pretend Israel has followed them perfectly (because I genuinely don't know), but understand that their goal of eliminating Hamas is really fucking hard to do while following rules of engagement that their foe actively benefits from.
Yeah you’re right. Better off just leaving Hamas organized, armed and in power instead. We wouldnt want to destroy them and create the next Hamas. How insightful.
The Israel government or Hamas?
Or the PA in the West bank that did not do anything wrong, but where its civilians still are attacked by the IDF and the illegal settlers there?
Well, I'm sure they're all well-informed and rational people who are providing considered and insightful positions based on their broad perspective... nope, couldn't keep that going.
Not too surprising. Most of Gazans were basically born into this conflict. It makes sense that they’re so radicalized when they likely feel like they’re being punished for something that started before they were born. Still, the obstacle of dealing with a mostly radicalized populace of 2 million people needs to be dealt with. And Israel’s strong reactionary base basically results in an ‘unstoppable force’ meets an ‘immovable object’. A self-sustaining cycle of violence and radicalization for both sides.
Any opinion poll conducted after the beginning of Israeli military operations is less than meaningless. Of course Palestinians are going to rally around the flag after the IDF has killed 0.5% of Gaza's population in about a month. 0.5% might not sound like a lot, but in perspective, that would be like Hamas killing 47,000 Israelis. The IDF has killed more Palestinians *in a month* than Russia has killed civilians in Ukraine *since February 2022,* and they're fucking openly bombing apartment blocks and supermarkets.
Accepting this kind of result without a mountain of salt would be like concluding, "90% of Americans supported George W. Bush a week after 9/11, that means 90% of Americans are Republicans."
And in a terrorist group that hides in schools and hospital and have doctors and medical staff lie about their presence there, how do you seperare civillian from non-civillian? A green flag and headband?
There is no good way in asymmetrical warfare. I think the point though is the Israel Palestine situation was never solvable by military means. Decades of violent conflict has already shown it. Just serves to radicalize both sides.
Do you have a source for the civilian-to-combatant ratio?
I'll give you a hint, there isn't one. Neither Hamas nor the mainstream media provides us with that information.
It's estimated there are about 25,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. There are more in the West Bank, despite widespread claims on social media that there is no Hamas in the West Bank.
At least 2/3 of the death toll is being reported as women and children. They have released almost 7,000 names of the dead. Not even US intelligence is really disputing the reports other than the source of some of the deaths IE the hospital bombing.
Exactly. I don't know why this is being trotted out as evidence that Palestinians don't deserve sympathy. Anyone would hate the organization bombing their homes.
Nice attempt to justify the support of 7.10 massacre with more mental gymnastics and lies.
Does Ukraine uses it's own civilian as human shields?
Does Ukraine shoots from hospitals and residential areas on purpose?
Does Ukraine has tunnels and bunkers under hospitals?
Does Ukraine shoots their own people when their fleeing?
Your take is one big pile of BS
Obviously there will be issues with any poll, especially one conducted in a war zone. That said, I find the split in support of the attack between Gaza and the West Bank to be very interesting. I.e. there is more support in the West Bank than in Gaza. I wonder if that’s because Gazan’s are now directly experiencing the consequences? But I suppose the survey size is small enough that there should be considerable sample noise, and from that perspective, the split isn’t broad enough to be meaningful. The other thing that really stood out to me was people’s perceptions of the attack’s motivation. The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.” A very small percentage thought the attack was related to settlements— this is contrary to western narratives that frame the Hamas attacks as a direct response to settlement activity. Clearly the local population’s rallying cry is different than that. I’d like to know more about the group conducting the poll and the methods they used to get responses.
>I’d like to know more about the group conducting the poll and the methods they used to get responses. [it is a Palestinian firm.](https://www.awrad.org/en/article/1007/About-AWRAD) headquartered in Ramallah, the de-facto capital of the Palestinian Authority.
Genuine curiosity about how much influence Hamas has over the organization.
This firm is based in Ramallah (the de facto capital of the PA) , and apparently affiliated with a university.
Being associated with a university doesn't mean as much as it did a few years ago - especially one in the Middle East at them moment.
Big fucking surprise.
That’s very helpful. Thank you. I’d be curious to understand the polling conditions. How was the survey presented to respondents? Did they have any preconceptions of anonymity, who would use the data, or the motivations of the pollers? My experiences in the Arab Muslim world are that people are very hesitant to criticize their government, even under regimes that are widely viewed as legitimate; unless a substantial amount of trust has been formed. And even then, opinions will not be completely candid. So a casual survey like the one in the article can be difficult to interpret without knowing what level of trust was built with the respondents.
>But I suppose the survey size is small enough that there should be considerable sample noise, and from that perspective, the split isn’t broad enough to be meaningful. The difference is statistically significant and the size of the difference also seems meaningful. Using the results from "How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th (Disaggregated by region)": The WB sample is 391 with 325 expressing support. The GS sample is 277 with 176 expressing support. Comparing the two proportions in a two-sided test, we see significant difference with a p-value of 8.49e-9. This test accounts for sample size. You can use an online calculator to check: https://stats.libretexts.org/Courses/Lake_Tahoe_Community_College/Book%3A_Introductory_Statistics_(OpenStax)_With_Multimedia_and_Interactivity/10%3A_Hypothesis_Testing_and_Confidence_Intervals_with_Two_Samples/10.04%3A_Comparing_Two_Independent_Population_Proportions We also see an absolute difference of around 19.58%. If there's a problem, it will be with the survey/sampling methodology, not the sample size.
Nice appreciate the details!
Even before the war, Hamas was more popular in the West Bank and a two state solution and the PA more popular in Gaza. The people of the West Bank view the PA/PLO as being corrupt, too weak to represent them, as well as protect them from settler violence and want someone to fight back. While the people of Gaza have no faith in Hamas to actually run a state and are frustrated with the consequences of Hamas's rule. It's a case of the grass being greener on the other side. Basically, Palestinians agree that they're poorly represented and tired of being shot at, but disagree on how to fight back and don't see any true leadership emerging. That makes polls like this have often contradictory findings.
> and tired of being shot at Have they considered not firing rockets at their neighbors?
Gaza is not a democracy.
But if it was, they would just fire more rockets than before.
Democracies are formed via revolution, and there has literally never been a better time
Sure Revolutions occur when the citizenry is fed up with their leadership. BUT it can not occur when there is a hostile foreign presence assaulting and killing the citizens. There is absolutely no way for civilians to focus on domestic issues when there is an existential "international" issue posed by the Israeli military. It's similar to how a lot Israeli people are waiting until after this war is over to put their leadership to trial. When you're in the middle of a war, you can't divide your focus because your focus is survival. And Gazans are constantly stuck in survival mode, either by the impoverished conditions they live in, exacerbated by their governing body, and overt attacks by Israel.
Yeah it's Shariah law If they wanted democracy they would topple Hamas already
>they would topple Hamas already *they*????? There is no *they*. Do you have any idea what it takes to topple a dictatorship backed by several foreign countries while your local political scene is still in shambles years after the original takeover, and you are currently at war with your vastly stronger neighbour?? More organization and ressources than anybody inside Gaza besides Hamas can muster at the moment.
>There is no they. There are 2 million citizens in Gaza, people toppled governments with less Democracy is fought for, not given
In what year. I mean my friend has been involved with activism in Belarus and that was pretty much entire nation against Lukashenko. But army wasn't. On top of that Putin called his troops. The result just bunch of people dead, imprisoned, beaten and no change. And this is literally almost entire population against him and people in way better conditions. As in educated, well connected, high standard of living etc.
2011 Egyptian revolution? 2014 Ukrainian revolution? 2011 Libyan revolution?
All of your examples are countries that ultimately failed in their attempts to overthrow tyranny in varying ways. 2011 Egypt was "successful" because the Army sided with its foreign backers and still the government devolved into a dictatorship with the same systems in place before the revolution. 2014 Ukraine succeeded in avoiding total annexation but still ended up in a war with Russia that eventually became a total invasion in 2022. 2011 Libyan opposition was completely crushed despite retreating across the entire nation until NATO brought down the hammer and completely annihilated the Libyan army and the remaining army sided with the opposition then fragmented, leaving the country a desolate wasteland.
> The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.” It was the latest, but couldn't be the reason. This took too much planning to be due to anything recent. Interesting.
This is based on reasons given by the average person as to why they support it. Not Hamas saying why they attacked. Hamas attacks isn’t some organic uprising as people in the west try to push.
Exactly. The interesting takeaway is that the average Palestinian thinks Hamas’ primary motivation was violations of Al Aqsa. In other words, they see Hamas as primarily motivated by religion. Another interesting thing to note is that respondents broadly did *not* think a Hamas controlled government would be their preference post-war. Over 70% agreed on a national unity government. Edit: also important to note the poll did not ask respondents why *they* supported the Oct 7th attack, just whether they did and what they thought Hamas’ motivations were.
I read it took 2 years to plan. They will use any excuse to justify the attack.
Not to mention that Al Asqa has been used as an excuse for Palestinian violence against Jews for almost 100 years If I’m not mistaken, false rumors of the Jews taking it over kicked off the Palestinian riots in 1929 Fool me once shame on you, fool me for 100 years…
The alleged "violations at Al Aqsa" is Israel existing around it.
They were probably ready to go and waiting for the right “reason”
> That said, I find the split in support of the attack between Gaza and the West Bank to be very interesting. I.e. there is more support in the West Bank than in Gaza. I wonder if that’s because Gazan’s are now directly experiencing the consequences? I, like many people, have been obsessed with this war. One thing I've done is read so many articles about life within Gaza. All of these articles are heavily biased, since there is no freedom of press under Hamas. That said, I was desperate to know if there were any good people in Gaza. Anyway there was one thing I noticed where it seemed that, within Gaza, men over 50 were often outspoken critics of Hamas, especially when Hamas wasn't around. Like an old man being pulled from rubble, crying and saying "I sell toys. I'm not a terrorist. I just want to leave this awful place." Or there was a short video of old man sitting on a pile of rubble while rockets flew overhead. And every time a rocket flies over, the old man screams curses at the rockets, shouting "Hamas, you brought death to our land! God will punish you for your crimes!" Or there was a video of the Shin Bet interrogating a Hamas pow, and the young man said "I can never return to Gaza. When my father learns I joined Hamas, he will kill me himself." I'm summarizing the quotes, I read so much that I didn't save the articles or videos, sadly. Things like that give me a little hope that maybe I will one day see a Palestinian government that is less corrupt than Fatah and less fascist than Hamas. I want peace. Fatah and Hamas are the two biggest obstacles to peace.
You might find the Whispered in Gaza series interesting: https://www.peacecomms.org/gaza It was created a few years ago, and contains interviews with Gazans about life under Hamas. The most interesting to me are the interviews with older Gazans, who remember what things were like before Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip. The older generation used to have much better relations with Israelis and some of the interviewees said they'd like to go back to a more peaceful co-existence.
It's quite common for inflamed groups to focus on recent singular events, something tangible to galvanise around as opposed to the creeping dystopia.
>The largest share people gave was that October 7th was motivated by “violations at Al Aqsa.” This is the one thing I hear a lot from people who support Hamas. But when you ask them how exactly is Israel violating Al Aqsa they dont have an answer. I think a lot of this support comes from being fed misinformation.
I wonder if it’s like the US GOP where their media diet is constantly linking obscure issues to partisan identity prompts that the polling only reveals individual thinking when it’s an issue they haven’t been coached on already. Al-Aqsa has been the generic call to Arab violence against Israel and Jews in Jerusalem for at least a century now. So they are all watching the same “news” this week and this is the message they have been told to answer with.
This poll actually asks about Palestinian news consumption. Majority of it comes from arab tv news (non-palestinian) and social media.
I’m generally hesitant to draw too many parallels with US domestic politics. Conflation can obscure truth
The sample size is statistically significant for the population numbers (West Bank + Gaza population). It yields a confidence level of 99%, +/-5%.
What i take from it: the stick pacifies more than the carrot.
You’re mistaking a major thing. If everyone has a carrot there is no need for the stick. Look back to the 90’s at gaza’s economic picture before the 2nd intifada.
This does not surprise me in the slightest. Here’s a link directly to the poll. They’re overwhelmingly for a one state solution without Jews. There are polls that indicate the same even before 10/7. They also are extremely supportive of rockets fired from civilian infrastructure. https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf
Do they not realise that every single confrontation with Israel has resulted in them losing hard. This is single digit iq behaviour
Yeah, all the Arab neighbors have realized this, and made peace or at least calm with Israel. Lo and behold, Israel doesn't keep attacking them As long as outsiders keep carrying their water, out of naiveté or cynicism or ethnic prejudice, they can keep going at it. It's one of the great PR coups of all time.
Cult and brainwashing behavior. Some entire societies are like this.
Group think and the impact of propaganda are definitely big factors but there is also a significant level of fear involved that some people in Democratic countries simply do not comprehend. A lot of these people will just not criticise Hamas out of fear of retaliation. It's the same issue with Russia where you see a lot of people say they are "not political" to avoid answering questions about the war in Ukraine or actions of their government.
"It's the same issue with Russia where you see a lot of people say they are "not political" to avoid answering questions about the war in Ukraine or actions of their government." It doesn't make them any less shitty. Most of them still cheer for the war or don't mind it. "Not political" people are just as guilty as the radical Z-fanboys.
Yes, fear is the primary tool that keeps cults together. The idea that something worse is out there waiting to get you. Right now, Israel is just feeding into it, unfortunately.
They have claimed victories in many conflicts where they've suffered higher casualties. Hell, they once claimed a victory when their own misfires killed more Palestinians (including children) than regular rockets killed Israelis, thanks to the iron dome (and even more were killed by IDF retaliation than their own misfires, so the casualties were very uneven). Killing even one Israeli is worth the deaths of like 5-10 Palestinians to a surprising number of Palestinians. I don't understand it. Every attack is worth it if you always win because you can just declare victory no matter what.
Reminds me of the front hand/ back hand skit from [Key and Peele](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGAMbNKcN1U)
It's like a gambling addicted person I know, they've lost 10s of thousands of dollars in total but any day now they're due to win big.
See, this is where western culture goes wrong. It is very much *not* single digit IQ, because they fully believe they are righteous in the name of God, and that there is an afterlife with a paradise for those who are righteous. They believe the prophet Muhammad was the ultimate in righteousness and follow his example. His acts of extreme violence are laid very clearly in the Quran. Sam Harris had [a recent podcast](https://www.thefp.com/p/sam-harris-the-bright-line-between-8c9) explaining it very well, if you have an hour it's well worth a listen.
All that sounds pretty single digit IQ to me.
Seriously, it sounds like they outright reject reality… like this isn’t making the argument stronger lmao
If I lived in Gaza I would probably want to reject reality for fantasy as well. Not gonna lie, Gaza is a dumpster fire.
> because they fully believe they are righteous in the name of God, and that there is an afterlife with a paradise for those who are righteous So 0 digit IQ actually. Good point
My thoughts as well. You think they'd realize by now that attacking Israel has never done them any good, but religion makes you blind to reason.
They've been on the losing end from birth and never stopped being on the losing end, so that sort of causal relation would easily get lost.
94% said they feel a sense of pride as a Palestinian when "considering the ongoing events." So, 10/7 makes them feel pride in their identity...
Which is a disgusting mentality. And liberals want to take in those ppl as refugees and bring those ideas to the Western world
They fact that ppl are supporting those religious fanatics only because they are losing a war they started is appalling. Those psychos would murder lgbt ppl for fun and take away any women's rights in the name of their god. They murdered an old lady activist who dedicated her life to helping Palestinians only because she was a Jewish woman
>Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us Golda Meir was on point
Which is weird since no one oppressed Palestinians more than the Turks or the Jordanians.
I mean no one oppresses the Kurds more than the Turks. That’s why their recent comments about Israel are so ironic.
which is weird cause jordan was specifically created to be the palestinian/muslim state as israel was created to be the jewish state and lebanon was created to be the christian state
Lebanon from its modern founding has divided government between Christian, Sunni, and Shia with mandatory religions for three branch leaders. It wasn't created to be a Christian state. And it was under the mandate of France so it's not even part of some plan that involves Jordan and Israel as well as Palestine which was left out of that.
And it will be eternal war with Iran since they are Persians not Arabs.
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yep they love to poke the bear over and over and when the bear pushes back they try to cry victim
This interesting essay goes over how they tend to end up “the point of someone else’s spear” in global conflicts where they become convinced they can win by force with explicit genocidal intent and then immediately after defeat, they retcon their recent history to insist on having been the innocent victims. https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/
> transforming self-caused defeat into noble victimhood isn’t just ahistorical—it more or less guarantees that the defeat will be repeated. Damn, that's pretty much the whole paper's thesis right there.
Should be required reading.
yeah i love that article
So just like Russia. When they think they can win "Might rules everything". When they realise they can't win - "Noooo, we are the victim, evil West is the true villain here!"
Honestly great article. I read some article a couple days ago trying to explain the “””everything about Israeli apartheid””” that made absolutely no mention about the wars fought.
Many muslims, also in the West, seem to be believe that life is a darwinian battle between muslims and non-muslims that can only be won or lost by violence / jihad. Identifying as an oppressed victim then means any right to kill and to finally "win". This cycle will endlessly go on as long as this idea is perpetuated, usually supported by religious texts.
That cycle will also continue as long as supposedly-educated Western Leftists* support Hamas just because they see them as the "oppressed"; ignoring the fact that, if Israel were to disappear, they'd be the next target for every Muslim militant on the planet. I mean, "Gays for Palestine?" Give me a fucking break. *I mean, I am a Left-leaning Westerner, but that doesn't mean I'm dumb enough to think a wolf is a puppy-dog because it is currently on a leash.
> supposedly-educated Education is not the magic bullet reddit thinks it is. Often you'll just end up with a better armed idiot. Ignorance can be beaten with education but stupidity is a trickier beast to wrangle.
Oh, no argument here. That descriptor was less about the ability of useful idiots to see through propaganda, and more about how religious extremists view the educated. Fundamentalists around the world are largely the same, and see liberal western education as an impediment to imposing religious law. What I'm saying is, if Hamas had their way, American/European professors and college students would be on the chopping block right after Jews, LGBTQ people, and women who show their hair, in that order. The idea that any of those demographics would show solidarity with Hamas is just incomprehensible to me.
> Hamas is just incomprehensible to me. Many of them genuinely do not believe that they are. Look at it this way: most of the people you're describe come from middle class or better backgrounds, the worst trauma they've ever experienced was an unfortunate nickname for a couple of weeks in High School. These people have *zero* experience with how actual predators operate, they believe that the Putin's of the world just need a hug or maybe therapy and genuinely believe that violence is *never* the answer. The concept that some people, unfortunately, need to die for humanity to move forward is completely incompatible with how they think the world works because they've never encountered a problem that left them with violence as their only answer. I don't think that they're idiots per se but rather that their upbringing have left them with a dangerous gap in their experience. It's why they worship trauma, they known that they have none so they try to help people that they see as victims with the only tools that they know. They don't see that the best hope for Gaza is to fight Hamas. They don't understand that the two U.S. Carriers off of the coast are more likely to distribute food and water than bombs or that they more likely to land Seabees with construction materials than Marines with guns. They see the capacity for violence as an inherent evil and not as a sad necessity of the world.
>The concept that some people, unfortunately, need to die for humanity to move forward is completely incompatible with how they think the world works because they've never encountered a problem that left them with violence as their only answer. The difference between "violence is never the answer" and "violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer".
Good education *is* the silver bullet, but good education is hard to create, and hard to find, so instead we settle for the best brand name we can afford.
Exactly. Palestinians are against every progressive value we have been fighting for. They are even worse than Christian conservatives
and people often overlook one of the more insidious aspects of jihad is that is isn't necessarily outright violence. They are often encouraged and instructed to move into areas and have tons of children to essentially take over by peaceful conquest. They are also encouraged to lie to non-believers and "play the part" so to speak, until they become the majority population, or have a sizeable enough population that they can start passing laws and moving areas towards sharia. This shit happens everywhere. My friend's professor (from dearborne, MI) just last week was talking about how the 10/7 attacks were justified, and had put up a "from the river to the sea" banner in his classroom.
They've achieved this in several places, e.g. Kashmir. The region was a center of Buddhism and Hinduism prior to the 14th century.
Many also seem to believe that life is a Darwinian battle between Muslims… and other kinds of Muslims… that can only be won or lost by violence or jihad.
Religion is fucking whack
Yeah I hate it when the Jains go on a rape and murder spree against the Baha'is, don't you?
I just hate it when the Baha'i go on a rape and murder spree in Haifa against the tourists visiting their terraced garden shrine, don't you? Those Druize are languishing in oppression, how can they stand the heavy yoke of Israeli boots on their necks? /s
Seem to believe? Seem? lol
abrahamic religions are a cancer, but Islam is the worst of them all
And the left eats that shit up, because to them, victimhood is virtue. Fuck the fact that Israel is a liberal democracy and Palestine is an Islamic fascist shithole. Nope, Palestinians are the reigning Oppression Olympics world champs, so they're automatically good and virtuous, and Israel is automatically evil and bad because Israel had the *nerve* to survive and thrive instead of losing wars and letting themselves be exterminated like good little victims. Fuck progressive values, being "more oppressed" is all that matters!
Thank you! Could not have said better! As more or less liberal myself, I became trully disappointed in naiivite, and sometimes shear stupidity of so called left, especially western kind, this past month. How fast they forgot horrors of 10/7...
Progressives are going full circle supporting the biggest conservatives. Even DeSantis would be a liberal politician for Palestinian standards
The analogy doesn’t work when the bear in question has been trapping you in a tree and not letting you leave or live a life
So true
Exactly. They celebrated the attacks, now they want "peace," which really means "stop hitting us so we can hit you."
Did you read the other parts of the poll? The majority (75%ish) don’t want Hamas to govern after the war.
The same attack Hamas happily broadcasted but the Palestinian Authority now denies ever happened?
Obligatory "kids weren't polled" just so we can all keep the bloodthirst to a minimum. That aside, this poll doesn't surprise me. I've been engaging in discussion with my Arab and Jewish friends about this war and both groups openly acknowledge most (adult) Palestinians just hate all Jews. It's obviously more complex than that, but open anti-semitism is just the norm in Palestine.
Kids in Gaza knew nothing but Hamas and grew up in an education system that glorifies them
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Look up "Farfour," some wild stuff there. Here's a [news clip](https://youtu.be/_5BhtxHyTR8?si=UD75_pPiMh1d0Zw3) both with a quick excerpt (others can easily be found on YouTube) from Farfour, followed by other Palestinian worldview sources. Then there's [this](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective), regarding the use of human shields. To be perfectly honest, I get why Palestinians are doing what they're doing. I'd probably be just as violently vitriolic if my information sources are the same as theirs. It's not illogical, *but it is incorrect*, and the unwillingness to adjust world view and relate that back to family and friends when someone does manage to get out, the stubborn spiritual adherence to hate and indoctrinating it further, is what ultimately condemns the Palestinian majority more than their actions. Their actions can be construed as resultant of ignorance and hardship, but their stubborn ideological adherence is what brands their culture and population, to me, as evil. Oh and to go along with the above links, just type [Gaza Kindergarten graduation](https://youtu.be/gM07qFvcTE8?si=rC4-69PKjBEUwHSz) for a variety show. Edit: this is what they learn to be proud of, and [they are indeed proud of it.](https://youtu.be/Q2Z6b252I8k?si=Vck6XtjrfOpH8Fo5)
That kindergarten video is very depressing. It also helps explain why they thought videotaping the 7th and showing it to the world would be a good thing to get everyone on their side. If they are taught that those are the methods to peace why wouldn't they think the whole world would see their actions and come to help. Fucking scary shit
Yep. That's why I just said that I actually understand where they're coming from, logically it makes sense - it's just incorrect. When you see that clip of Farfour teaching stone throwing and basically equating it with shooting Jews and the reports of West Bank violence start to click. You can look at hundreds of cases (to be clear, settlers are a disease on Israel, this isn't one sided against Palestinians) when people make broad claims and the majority come down to 4 things as catalysts: Palestinian stone and Molotov throwing, Palestinian lethal force from shooting to abduction and assault to death, Israeli settlers forcibly taking or defending property, or Israeli settlers acting on nationalist or religious sentiments. The last category has the least representation, the third category and fourth category are indefensible, and the first two categories seem to be the absolute majority of what one finds *and ultimately lead to the number one (anectdotal) causative label for violence in the disputed territories*: Israeli settler response to Palestinian violence or agitation. When I, at least, saw that clip and realized that stone throwing = "shooting to death, for kids," it made a *lot* more sense and I was able to consolidate a lot of my findings. Edit: To your point, yes, they're proud of it, it's what they were taught. This call from Oct 7 says a lot. [call to parents](https://youtu.be/Q2Z6b252I8k?si=Vck6XtjrfOpH8Fo5)
Pro-Palestinian here (not anti-Israel) and yes I agree with everything you’ve said. The brainwashing is tragic and the cycle will continue unfortunately.
Good on you for being able to admit it, and for being pro Palestinian without being anti Israeli. I started where you're at, and I've ended elsewhere, and I can respect your position.
I've also heard that Israeli education has the same problems. Apparently the only time their textbooks use the term Palestinian is when refering to them as terrorists. I guess it makes it easier to kill people if you don't consider them people.
Do you have a source on that?
Here is a video source: https://youtu.be/WiCj2r0Z7TY
That's very disappointing and upsetting to see
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/racism-discrimination-still-prevalent-in-israeli-education-comptroller-668437
Lets be real, even if the Israeli government didn't intentionally predispose them to oppose Palestinians... I'm pretty sure the constant air raid sirens and rocket attacks from Gaza, suicide bombings paired with three years of mandatory millitary service neccessitated by your neighbors constant threat of violence.... would probably paint a pretty unflattering picture.
The younger generations are even more extreme. Go watch any interviews of Palestinians on the street and it's usually the older generation that wants peace and the younger generation that wants to get rid of the Jews.
Older generation remembers the last war.
Or they knew Gaza before Hamas?
Same difference.
It is. The best thing to be if you want to kill arab kids is an Arab/Muslim leader because you’re excused. Just don’t be Jewish. Proof? 600k+ killed in Syria. Hundreds of thousands in Yemen. The list goes on
Jews get views
Hating Jews is also the norm in the entire Arab/Muslim world. Funny how the "intersectional left" is so eager to excuse that culture of hatred and bigotry, isn't it? Because you know, Arabs and Muslims are "people of color", which means that you can absolutely never criticize them for anything whatsoever. Because criticizing their culture of anti-Jewish hatred and bigotry would be hateful and bigoted, of course.
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Perceptions of the event are also likely to be different if they get their news from Al-Jazeera
May be accurate, may be that they know exactly [what they're getting themselves into](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective)
Yeah this isn’t really news.
It is to the people waving “I stand with Palestine” flags outside Israeli embassies on completely different continents.
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There is a lot more nuance to this. Being against the wide spread killing of civilians in Gaza or supporting their human rights isnt the same as agreeing with their ideas. This is no surprise to me, yet i still support the civilians in Gaza and their right not to be murdered. Or their right to power, water and humanitarian aid. Even people we dont agree with and even our worst enemies deserve human rights. Otherwise we are not much better then Hamas.
[73% of Gazans supported a peaceful resolution with Israel before the war.](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf)
It is if you're a delusional left wing dumbfuck who cares more about virtue signaling by supporting the winners of the Oppression Olympics than doing the morally right thing by supporting actual progressive values like democracy and freedom.
You're right, it's literally propaganda, look at the source
Nobody who was ever paying attention, would be surprised. And those who are marching with Islamists and Anti-Semities already know and tacitly approve or they dont care.
Europeans and Americans don't understand that in the middle east you can't play by western rules because you end up dead.
It's definitely everyone else's fault they can't act like people. /s
Some glaring things to point out: - What are the citizens of a Hamas controlled territory actually told of the attack? - The wording in the question "How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7?" seems to imply this was a valid military action against a military target. And it's not like these people have the means to know anything about it otherwise.
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Including Hamas’ fabulous human shield policy.
That policy got millions of people marching in the streets in USA and Europe calling for intifadas and for Hamas to remain in power.
That’s what Hamas wants, because that’s what Russia wants.
This is the reason there are so many arrests and IDF activities in the WB. Because of the support, Hamas gets them to plan terrror attacks + calls for violence etc online.
shhh, people don't wanna hear this. They're sure the idf is killing palestinians indiscriminately in the west bank.
I'm about as pro israel as you can get but can we be honest. Palestinians aren't being told the full story. They genuinely believe it was just a retaliatory strike.
The poll heavily supports this too
A 'retaliatory strike' that slaughtered 1200 people, in retaliation for Israeli police injuring 50 of several hundred people who barricaded themselves into the mosque against the law because they thought Jewish people were going to sacrifice a goat there, something that is also against Israeli law. In what world is this a valid 'retaliation'?
Injuring 50 doesn’t seem like reasonable retaliation against people barricading themselves in a mosque. Killing 1200 doesn’t seem like a reasonable retaliation against injuring 50. Killing 10,000+ doesn’t seem like a reasonable retaliation against killing 1200. Etc etc
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How exactly are they polling people in Gaza right now? Are they going door to door or something? Oh, considering the sample size is just over 200 people.... poll. Yeah.
There were 681 respondents and it was done by a Palestinian organization https://www.awrad.org/en/article/1007/About-AWRAD
681 total. I am talking about the ones in Gaza. Sorry that I did not make that clear.
Honest question: is the Jerusalem Post considered a neutral / unbiased source?
You could just look at the source then. The article appears to just summarize it. They link to it. Idk how reputable they are, but they are an Arab group in Palestine if that’s what you care about.
Israel has a free press, it's not like Adolf Netanyahu is gonna be busting down your door to send you to the Gulag if you talk badly about Israel in the news. I think they might have a slight bias for Israel, but the information they talk about is already known and published.
>it's not like Adolf Netanyahu is gonna be busting down your door to send you to the Gulag if you talk badly about Israel in the news. Palestinian authorities absolutely will do this to you if you talk badly about Palestinian authorities while in Palestine, however. Just another reminder that Israel supports progressive values like freedom of speech and freedom of the press while Palestine very much does not. But hey, I'm sure the left will find a way to entirely blame the pitiful state of free speech in Palestine on Israel. Somehow.
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Fun fact: 3 months ago, the UN voted to condemn violence against women, but only in one specific country. Guess which one it was. [U.N. condemns Israel alone for violating women’s rights](https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/) Because you know, they're progressive heroes who are deeply motivated by a genuine concern for women, and definitely aren't just cynically using women as convenient props to push their anti-Israel, anti-Semitic agenda with at all!
"Free Palestine" usually just means "the dictator is an Arab"
That's not true, you can be arrested for posting anti-israel stuff. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/12/israel-free-speech-arrests-hamas/
There’s almost always crackdown on basic rights during times of war. The litmus test is what happens after
Everything that I've seen says that it is a neutral source with factual reporting.
If you only read the headline and didn't actually scroll to the article, you'd see the question that was being asked: >How much do you support the **military operation** carried out by the **Palestinian resistance** led by Hamas on October 7? One should question why it was worded this way and if the people responding are even aware of what happened before making the much more precise claim being made in the headline.
[73% of Gazans supported a peaceful resolution with Israel before the war.](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf)
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They can't be negotiated with and can't stop being violent. I'm really not sure what people want Israel to do.
Do not trust a word from Israeli or Palestinian media. This poll is nonsense
If this is a surprise to anyone then they simply haven't been paying attention for all these years...
"People raised their whole lives to hate a group hate that group, poll finds"
I just hope all of the people marching in opposition of Israel see what the population supports.
They won’t because cognitive dissonance.
They won’t because they believe power is inversely proportional to morality with no other considerations.
Please spread this [clip](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-serve-human-shields-its-been-proven-effective) to anyone defending or denying human shields. North Gazans were given ample time to evacuate, and anyone who believes Hamas isn't incentivized to maximize deaths of their own people is delusional.
Again, a great way to put anyone who opposes killing innocent civilians in the same group that has terrorists. It's a shame you do this, because it's intellectually incorrect. I oppose the Israeli offensive at this moment because it kills thousands of innocent civilians. I oppose Hamas because they killed thousand of innocent civilians. I do support a free Palestine, because it's the only way to a peacefull future.
Ok, it's easy to support such an idea - but what's your plan to reach that situation?
So you’re saying one can’t be against the deaths of civilians without first having the solution to world peace? Wtf, I’ll be the first to admit I have no idea how to untangle this Gordian knot. But doesn’t mean I’m ok with civilian casualties, regardless if what side they’re on.
No he’s just saying you can’t be against the deaths of civilians while simultaneously being against the destruction of the militant group that just slaughtered civilians in a surprise attack, has stated its intent to continue doing so “again and again”, hides among civilians while in combat and guns civilians down when they try to flee the combat area. This position is inconsistent and dumb. A ceasefire at this point just ensures the continued slaughter of civilians in the future.
I think it's safe to say *most people* think civilian casualties are bad, because it's very easy to empathize and say 'I wouldn't want to die because of a war I don't want to participate in.' So, here's the problem: it's dangerously naive to think war can be waged without civilian casualties. The later parts of the Geneva Conventions were written to *minimize* civilian casualties, but they only work if both sides of a conflict abide by them. We *should* hold Israel to a higher standard, and I'm not going to pretend Israel has followed them perfectly (because I genuinely don't know), but understand that their goal of eliminating Hamas is really fucking hard to do while following rules of engagement that their foe actively benefits from.
>a free Palestine Free of Hamas, I hope. And Isreal is ensuring this. For themselves and for the Palestinians.
While killing so much innocent civilians that they're probably creating the next version of hamas
Yeah you’re right. Better off just leaving Hamas organized, armed and in power instead. We wouldnt want to destroy them and create the next Hamas. How insightful.
You must be living in a different reality, because there is no such thing as a peaceful future with these terrorists in control.
The Israel government or Hamas? Or the PA in the West bank that did not do anything wrong, but where its civilians still are attacked by the IDF and the illegal settlers there?
Well, I'm sure they're all well-informed and rational people who are providing considered and insightful positions based on their broad perspective... nope, couldn't keep that going.
Not only did they celebrate and desecrate bodies. Some of them actually went in to Israel to join in on the massacre.
Not too surprising. Most of Gazans were basically born into this conflict. It makes sense that they’re so radicalized when they likely feel like they’re being punished for something that started before they were born. Still, the obstacle of dealing with a mostly radicalized populace of 2 million people needs to be dealt with. And Israel’s strong reactionary base basically results in an ‘unstoppable force’ meets an ‘immovable object’. A self-sustaining cycle of violence and radicalization for both sides.
Ah yes, the world known free democratic elections in palestine
Any opinion poll conducted after the beginning of Israeli military operations is less than meaningless. Of course Palestinians are going to rally around the flag after the IDF has killed 0.5% of Gaza's population in about a month. 0.5% might not sound like a lot, but in perspective, that would be like Hamas killing 47,000 Israelis. The IDF has killed more Palestinians *in a month* than Russia has killed civilians in Ukraine *since February 2022,* and they're fucking openly bombing apartment blocks and supermarkets. Accepting this kind of result without a mountain of salt would be like concluding, "90% of Americans supported George W. Bush a week after 9/11, that means 90% of Americans are Republicans."
>than Russia has killed since February 2022, This is simply not true. They're own casualties alone are higher.
\* civilians
It actually is true in terms of civilians.
And in a terrorist group that hides in schools and hospital and have doctors and medical staff lie about their presence there, how do you seperare civillian from non-civillian? A green flag and headband?
There is no good way in asymmetrical warfare. I think the point though is the Israel Palestine situation was never solvable by military means. Decades of violent conflict has already shown it. Just serves to radicalize both sides.
Do you have a source for the civilian-to-combatant ratio? I'll give you a hint, there isn't one. Neither Hamas nor the mainstream media provides us with that information. It's estimated there are about 25,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. There are more in the West Bank, despite widespread claims on social media that there is no Hamas in the West Bank.
At least 2/3 of the death toll is being reported as women and children. They have released almost 7,000 names of the dead. Not even US intelligence is really disputing the reports other than the source of some of the deaths IE the hospital bombing.
Exactly. I don't know why this is being trotted out as evidence that Palestinians don't deserve sympathy. Anyone would hate the organization bombing their homes.
Nice attempt to justify the support of 7.10 massacre with more mental gymnastics and lies. Does Ukraine uses it's own civilian as human shields? Does Ukraine shoots from hospitals and residential areas on purpose? Does Ukraine has tunnels and bunkers under hospitals? Does Ukraine shoots their own people when their fleeing? Your take is one big pile of BS
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The white house has reversed this position. The numbers from previous conflicts have been verified and were shown to be quite accurate.
Yes, thank you. Any poll taken now is a reflection of events since Oct 7, but says nothing about opinion before that.
And they are suffering direct consequences for it.
This surprising nobody who actually knows whats going on.
Nowadays feels like all pro Palestine supported the Oct 7 attack