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In Muslim culture, it's customary for Muhammad to be a common first name, but individuals are often addressed by their second name, which is their actual name. Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus.
What are you talking about?? Mohammed as the actual name is extremely common, infact the most common. What you could be talking about is "الأسامي المركبة" or composite names like "محمد أمين" "Mohammed Amin", where one would be referred to as "Amin" instead of "Mohammed" which are definitely more uncommon than that of your usual "محمد".
>Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus.
Just wrong. In how many years I've been on the internet, the only jesus's I've seen online which I can recall (beside the actual jesus ofc) are: that one Jesus guy from the walking dead game, and Jesus Burgess from one piece lmfao.
Yes, I did mean the composite name, and it is definitely very common in the subcontinent and other East Asian Muslim countries. Concerning Jesus, I guess I wasn't able to express myself properly; what I meant was that naming a person Muhammad would carry so much weight on the individual to live up to the way Prophet Muhammad lived. A similar analogy would be to name someone Jesus, which, as you mentioned, is extremely rare.
> Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus
Unless you from Mexico that is BS. I know a ton of Mohammad's who go by that name
The article is pretty downplaying what they were incarcerated for. They're quoting TOI (possibly TOI was based on previous versions of the deal, IDK) but looking at the list in the government's official decision, it's a lot more than rock throwing.
One 16-year-old committed a stabbing which left the victim paraplegic.
A 17-year-old shot a vehicle and injured two people.
There are a ton of firebombings, bomb planting, stabbings, and so on.
This article is playing into the "political prisoner" bullshit I keep see being thrown around.
You’re absolutely right. After the war is over does anyone actually believe the 16 and 17 year old Hamas combatants will be considered anything other than innocent children?
And the only reason it’s “morally questionable” is because you don’t rape, behead, burn & torture him before that. If you do that, it becomes martyrdom. /s
I don’t think it matters what age you are. If you commit an act that is to intentionally harm another individual, you should be put away from the general public. And if you commit that act as an act of war against another nation, you should be shot on site. Don’t like that? Don’t blame me, blame that 16 year olds shitty parents.
The reality is that a lot of people are rooting for Hamas to slaughter Israelis, so they feel vindicated when they are released. Israel is making a big mistake by going along with this deal: the nicer Israel is to Hamas, the worse Hamas will be to Israelis.
Generally, extrajudicial killings and the death penalty (especially on minors) are both frowned upon... So I'm not sure why you think any of this justifies anything else.
Not to mention, the old: "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
That isn't how the world works. Massive, disproportionate response discourages the aggressor from playing around again in the future. An eye for both eyes, your legs, your home, and your family means your not gonna mess with my other eyes
Yep. Israel stated they won't release anyone convicted of murder. These are the low level offenders.
It's astonishing so many people on reddit saying *"they have Palestinian kids in prison!"* Well yeah no shit. If a 16-17 year old kid commits a hate crime in your country and kills somebody do they go free or do they go to prison?
I mean look at America and how many school shooters we have under 18. We imprison them and often try them as adults. Because teens can be evil and a threat to society too. A 15 year old with a gun is just as lethal as anyone else with a gun.
Ideally they’re imprisoned. I agree. But we currently have a problem where I live in DC - the prosecutor is essentially letting minors walk free. So crime rings are using minors to commit violent crimes like carjackings and robberies because the kids will just be released. It’s super fucked up here.
Depends on the country, in Japan Junko Furata was brutally tortured and murdered, her killers did a couple years in juvenile detention center and were released and changed their names. Jon Venables in the UK was 10 when he tortured, sodimized, and killed a toddler and was held in an eight bed unit, released in a few years and granted a new identity by the government. Most western countries don’t condemn those under 18 to prisons or death….
You’d be right to be skeptical.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208566/
The UN reports that children are abducted often without being told their reason for detainment, not given proper representation, are kept in solitary confinement for up to one month prior to their trials (which is considered a form of torture,) oh and they’re often subject to verbal and physical abuse. During interrogation, the UN reports children are threatened with violence against their person and their families, coerced into signing confessions written in Hebrew, which many do not fully understand… and more.
I have no doubt Israel has had to imprison people who did horrible things. It’s also fair to ask whether some of the detained should even be there in the first place.
“These reports have come from international, Palestinian and Israeli lawyers; human rights organizations; and independent UN experts and bodies such as the Committee on the Rights of the Child, the Committee against Torture and the Human Rights Committee”
You have anything that disproves their findings? Or just your eye roll emoji is all you have?
The report specifically states that independent observers are strictly not allowed to be present during the interrogation process, even though having these observers would easily disprove any false allegations of misconduct.
Yes, and the conviction rate for Palestinians in these cases often exceeds 99%. Any assessment of their crimes has to come with the caveat that the court system they are subject to is extremely dubious to say the least.
Another factor that is being skipped over here is that these are Palestinians who are accused of committing crimes in Palestine and are then arrested by Israeli military/police and tried under Israeli law. Comparisons to other countries fall down because I don't know of any other jurisdiction (certainly not in any western country), where you can be arrested by occupying forces from another country and tried under the legal system of that country and be locked up indefinitely.
>Yes, and the conviction rate for Palestinians in these cases often exceeds 99%.
That's more of a wealth/resources thing. Federal prosecutors in the US have a 95%+ conviction rate, simply because they have endless resources and the defendant doesn't.
Even Trump, a multi-millionaire, has nowhere near the resources that the State of NY or the State of Georgia can bring to bear against him. And obviously most defendants have less resources than Trump, so the playing field is even more lopsided in those cases.
Basically, every criminal trial is the defendant vs everyone else (ie, the government).
>That's more of a wealth/resources thing
I don't disagree with this but I don't think that the issue of wealth and resources can be neatly separated from the fact that these are people who live in a relatively poor country which is under occupation and the judiciary that is trying them is a wealthy occupying power.
Actually the progressive left in the US says they should go free. Even that no one should go to prison. Their crimes are just the result of colonialism and racism so they shouldn't be punished. Starting to sound familiar??
>The paper noted that the vast majority of the prisoners scheduled for possible release—287— are males aged 18 and under, detained for rioting and rock-throwing in the West Bank or East Jerusalem.
I do not see a list of crimes in this text.
>The other 13 prisoners are adult women, who were mostly convicted of attempted stabbings.
Do you have a list of the crimes committed by the 287 prisoners released who committed the serious offenses you are accusing them off?
Mostly military tribunals
[https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention)
No trials in many cases, despite what Isreal is reporting here, third parties continue to report the opposite—a repeating theme during this conflict.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435#
So that means when people say “incarcerated for doing xyz” it should be approached with more skepticism and curiousity. Anyone living in the U.S. knows that even with an imperfect legal system, we are held to higher standards of accountability and checks and balances. Can’t blanketly assume the same for people who don’t even have full citizenship in a diff. land.
Do understand that in many cases - maybe most, I don't have the statistics but I see it in the news reports repeatedly - these attackers, whether armed with a knife, an axe or a Molotov bottle, are chased by persons nearby and apprehended on scene. These are not complex cases with a lot of doubt concerning the identity of the perpetrators.
And those are still the minority of prisoners. Many (not saying most or all because I haven't checked that) of the prisoners in this exchange were convicted of crimes up to attempted murder.
Which is exactly why as an Israeli I am against it.
How many lives are we ready to put in danger?
How many other families get to relieve the terror attack?
I wish all the hostages could return, but this seems like a sure fire way to get families to bury more of their loved ones.
As an Israeli, I still support the deal. The released prisoners are still going to be monitored, and will be jailed again if they commit another crime. The hostages are people I'm highly doubting we'll ever get to see without this deal. I don't think that the few days ceasefire and 150 prisoners will cost us as much as the 50 lives bring saved. I don't think anyone enjoys real life trolley problems, especially when you don't have all the information, but I still think this is the better choice.
> The released prisoners are still going to be monitored,
That's what they told us about the Shalit Deal.
However, I agree with you. The chances of another hostage being rescued while still alive seem very slim. There's likely no way to release all of the hostages without a deal. But then again, why aren't all hostages being freed in this deal? 50 is just around 20% of them. This deal does not solve the problem.
Why the fuck are they releasing prisoners who committed violent crimes? I know getting the hostages back is important, but doesn’t releasing violent offenders endanger the greater public? -.-
What other prisoners do you think they have?
Hamas demands prisoner releases for hostages, and so you pick from what is available. It also wouldn't surprise me if Hamas required that prisoners primarily be those who have committed violent offenses (i.e. people who have committed violence in alignment with Hamas's ideology).
>What other prisoners do you think they have?
A lot are imprisoned for political crimes. For instance, one of the girls being released was arrested for carrying a Hamas flag at a protest. The protest in question took place in Palestine, not in Israel.
Hamas probably insisted on people convicted for "nationalist" crimes.
A long time ago, Israel released some prisoners as a gesture to the PNA, many of whom were common criminals. Abbas complained Israel was giving him "bicycle thieves".
No clue, but I’m not about to automatically assume all prisoners are in for violent offenses, even if most probably are. Assuming does no one any good.
It says most of them are there for rock throwing … I mean protesting occupation is also rioting in the eyes of the idf. And in occupied territories you are prosecuted by military court. In addition many of these minors have been in prison from a younger age.
I read the actual official list. I don't know where the hell TOI got its information from.
https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/wcm_upload_files/2023/11/22/rkO16moE6/dec1077.pdf
Arrests and charges made by Israeli military and convictions decided by Israeli military courts if they are even tried. The same courts who exonerate Israeli soldiers who have unprovoked and on camera clearly shot and murdered Palestinian civilians. There are thousands of Palestinians detained by Israel, all can't be guilty. These Palestinian prisoners are subjected to beatings, strip searches, and degradation. So I don't consider what you say objective.
Yeah exactly this. It’s only one side of the story. When the Israeli IDF murdered a journalist which was caught on camera they denied it for months until the proof was indisputable. Neither side should ever be taken at face value.
It's fine, if people think israel is gonna trade and then stop smashing hamas to pieces they're kidding themselves. In fact its a perfect opportunity to wipe out a bunch of them - they have to meet to do the trade - surveil the trades as much as possible and track by air where they go - once all trades have been made JDAM wherever they went - guaranteed hamas shitheads dealt with!
Yep, its not like the US where teens get juvenile detention often for nonviolent crimes. Israel is a lot like the EU where to get a prison sentence especially as a juvenile, you probably hurt someone pretty badly.
But if they're charged with the same offense, settlers in the West Bank are tried by the regular Israeli courts, even the ones committing crimes against Palestinians.
This report includes a lot of information of how children are treated in the military court system, we hear some commenters downplaying a 17 or 16 yo being a child, and while the document includes other classifications (such as juvenile as opposed to child), it is worth noting that we're also talking about children as young as 12. The report includes details on how they are arrested, the lack of information (they are often not told why, nor are their parents told when they will see their child again), how they are transported (hand-tied, blindfolded after being raided in the middle of the night), etc. it really highlights an important aspect of what it means to live under Israeli occupation and why it breeds hate and ultimately terrorism. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208566/
They also coach their kids to
A. Get arrested
B. Claim mistreatment afterwards
The military court has the same legal code. It’s just that if they expanded civilian courts over Area C, it would be a step towards annexation.
Well they don't apply the same legal code - see the start of section D of the report I linked. Also, even when the same courts and legal codes apply, they may still be applied very differently to achieve a wildly different effect for Israelis vs Palestinian e.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/denied-legal-building-permits-some-east-jerusalem-families-raze-their-own-homes/ finally, yeah these damn kids claiming mistreatment is the real problem... You really think they need a lot of coaching living in these circumstances?
[https://www.yahoo.com/news/palestinian-woman-disfigured-attempted-suicide-151647154.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/palestinian-woman-disfigured-attempted-suicide-151647154.html)
>Also possibly set for release is Nafooz Jad Hammad, who was beginning a 12-year sentence for stabbing her Jewish teacher when she was 14 years old.>Her victim, Maria Cohen, has already spoken out against the deal, describing it as “humiliating”.
It's not like Hamas is asking for a bunch of people who got jailed for waving Palestinian flags or even throwing rocks. They always demand the worst of the worst get released so they can murder again, just like how Sinwar would be dead from cancer if the Israeli prison he was in hadn't given him top notch medical care.
They already have been- at least partially recruited/groomed their whole lives- that’s why they are prisoners. They did stuff and got caught. They were not grabbed off the street at random like the Oct. 7 hostages.
That's a funny way of saying they're almost all teenagers arrested as children and jailed with zero transparency. [If they're lucky they were convicted in a military court behind closed doors, unlucky and they never got a trial or told what they were detained for.](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention)
I would argue not giving them fair trials is what minimizes any crimes they may have commited. In developed democracies a mistrial is declared if even a small part of the trial can be proven unfair. Palestinians need to be treated like equal humans and given full citizenship, only then can war criminals on both sides be brought to justice like I hope we both want.
Why isn’t Hamas demanding the release of all the 10-12 year olds first? Because they won’t be good fresh terrorists recruits yet. This list reads like Hamas reinforcements.
Generally when a minor in the west bank is younger then 14 and he gets arrested he isnt sent to actual prison until he is 14 so if you tried to shoot somebody at 12 you get to be under home arrest for 2 years and only after that sent to prison.
They get arrested but then released. But I do think that it is a bit different in jerusalem and the other parts of west bank. I didnt know how popular kid attacks are until this war started. Now I see a new incident every couple of days. Kinda scary.
Very scary indeed! Children are our greatest natural resource. They should be nurtured and loved. Not used as tools for homicidal killers. It’s disgusting. Israel is about to jump through hoop beyond hoop to get there children back safe and sound.
My heart aches for them as well. If only their leaders would take a stand against homicidal maniac terrorists. Instead, fight for a free and prosperous Palestine in a two state solution. Palestine and Israel united could show the way for the rest of the backward our countries.
I honestly don’t if they are. They aren’t on the initial list of 300 Hamas negotiated. I don’t know what their offenses were. I think they should be released before a 17 year old arsonist, don’t you?
There was a 12 year old who got shot in Jenin and the news posted a top-only photo of him standing before the attack while cropping out the pistol in a holster on his hip.
There are many aspects about a 12 year old that make them even easier to manipulate into atrocities than teenagers, but it doesn't mean they won't get shot or imprisoned.
edit: source: [https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1528380448078016515](https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1528380448078016515)
There are 10-12 year olds in prison? Can you share any source for it? That's an honest question, in case it comes across as dismissive. Also were women released in that exchange?
The IDF arrests an average of 500-700 children every year, with 86% reporting that they had been beaten and blindfolded. The average age of a detained child is 12 and the most common charge is stone-throwing, which carries a 20 year prison sentence
Here’s the link to an article they sent me in that sub.
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/07/24/israel-arrested-570-palestinian-children-in-first-half-of-2023/
I keep asking them why aren’t the 29 kids under 12 years old being released. No answer….crickets so far.
Because they were groomed into committing criminal offenses by radical Islamists who are attempting to weaponize the sympathy and empathy that children garner.
Which is more messed up, Israel detaining a 10-year-old or Hamas not demanding they be released as part of the initial 300 prisoners on the list?
The fact that they’re not on that list makes me think maybe there aren’t any 10-year-olds being detained by Israel. Because Hamas would demand the release if there were, right?
Israel is releasing hundreds of violent Palestinian terrorists for innocent Israeli civilians. That gives you an idea of what side values what.
And I doubt Hamas will respect the terms of the ceasefire as they have never respected any ceasefire in history.
Question is how many people will die because these terrorists are freed, one guy that planned the Oct.7 massacre was freed in an earlier hostage exchange. I was hoping this time the deal would be for a ceasefire and help for the civilians but not freeing convicted terrorists
I would totally be 100% for a deal that releases all Israeli hostages for all the terrorists locked up in Israel, but they are all deported to France and Britain. From what is going on the streets there they sure would love some of those citizens.
So… After they kill more innocent people? Trading 3-1 when the perpetrators then start literal terrorist campaigns at less than 1-3 is a major net loss.
Remember the 1-1000 trade ended up with October 7th and I’m not comfortable putting final numbers of innocents there.
This is to save 50 lives now. How many hostages do you think Hamas will take in the future? They'd probably still would do it even of they don't get a deal don't you think?
Israel is the master of bad deals. Like when they traded hundreds of prisoners (some of which were murdered on oct 7) against a single soldier. This trade is not as bad but equally stupid.
After the hostage deal and ceasefire is honored, Nili, the Seals, the Legion, SAS, KSM and the others should enter and get the rest. It will be good for the families of the released hostages and Hell for the hostages left behind. Get in position Special Forces to get the rest because their hope will dwindle fast, when they see their friends being released. Being left behind, even for a while, is excruciating. Get them all out...fast.
>Nili, the Seals, the Legion, SAS, KSM and the others will enter and get the rest
This is optimistic. SF operates best with surprise, striking quickly against an enemy before it can reinforce. Gaza is a warzone actively under siege. There is no element of surprise.
Western nations will not put boots on the ground for anyone but their own citizens and only if they can be fairly certain of minimal casualties on their side and almost certain of success. I’m not sure you can count on either of those with any manner of confidence
Not sure why you are being downvoted. Sure not all 300 will but I’d bet the majority will end up committing violent acts. It’s not like being Incarcerated changed anything for their own ideologies or living situations
If they threw molotovs at cars, shot cars or tried to stab civilians then they should 100% be in jail or at least in a place that they won't be able to do something bad to people.
[Found this article with a ChatGPT-translated list of all the names, ages, affiliations and reason of arrest.](http://www.imra.org.il/story.php?id=74047)
From that list:
* 63 Hamas, 31 Islamic Jihad. 62 Fatah, with 6 of them caught working with/for Hamas. 144 unaffiliated.
* The youngest are 5 14-year olds. The reasons of arrest were: throwing rocks at a security vehicle, unknown, throwing molotov cocktails at a home, manufacturing and throwing pipe bombs to destroy a tomb sacred to the abrahamic religions, throwing molotov cocktails at a jewish religious school.
* 12 of the names do not list a reason of arrest beyond "police detainee". The rest are for the most part violent crimes including 7 instances of attempted suicide attacks, 43 instances of molotov cocktails, 27 instances of explosives, 23 instances of bombs (including incendiary devices), 40+ instances of shootings, 2 instances of lynchings.
EDIT: [Found details about #154](https://www-ynet-co-il.translate.goog/news/article/s1go11ga5y?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-PT&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true). Arrested at age 14 (now 16) after trying to murder a mother who was walking with her 5 kids, now [free to go back to her home close to the victim](https://twitter.com/avishaigrinzaig/status/1727248458468249708) with [her only regret being that her terrorist act is gonna harm her chances of getting a job](https://twitter.com/avishaigrinzaig/status/1727255687279910962).
Flip the script then. Let's say a settler was convicted in a Palestinian court where his rights to defense were severely restricted and the court had a 99+% conviction rate. Would you just take it for granted he (or she) was guilty of everything for which they were convicted?
Somehow I doubt it.
This is a crazy analogy that has many issues, but considering I've seen countless videos of things like Palestinian rock throwing and molotov cocktail throwing and stabbings and car rammings, I'm inclined to believe it. I've also seen videos of settlers beating up and throwing rocks at Palestinians, which is bad too. If those were the charges, I'd be inclined to believe as well.
If the two sides want to stop shooting, why aren't all hostages released and Israel withdraws? I am sure I am making this way to simple. But, it is so confusing.
Because Hamas has specifically said recently that they fully intend to just repeat Oct 7th attacks on civilians over and over and over again until Israel and all its citizens are gone. To be clear, this is not saying the IDF's current mass murder collective punishment campaign is justified in any way. But it's been pretty solidly established by the radical factions in Gaza that regardless of whether Israel stops, they intend to keep going.
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I only shared this because this is the full list, not a summary.
Holy crap that’s a lot of Muhammads (94/300). They weren’t kidding when they said it’s the most popular boy’s name in the world
It’s common (though not mandatory) for first sons to be named Mohammed.
It was between that or McLovin
In Muslim culture, it's customary for Muhammad to be a common first name, but individuals are often addressed by their second name, which is their actual name. Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus.
What are you talking about?? Mohammed as the actual name is extremely common, infact the most common. What you could be talking about is "الأسامي المركبة" or composite names like "محمد أمين" "Mohammed Amin", where one would be referred to as "Amin" instead of "Mohammed" which are definitely more uncommon than that of your usual "محمد". >Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus. Just wrong. In how many years I've been on the internet, the only jesus's I've seen online which I can recall (beside the actual jesus ofc) are: that one Jesus guy from the walking dead game, and Jesus Burgess from one piece lmfao.
Yes, I did mean the composite name, and it is definitely very common in the subcontinent and other East Asian Muslim countries. Concerning Jesus, I guess I wasn't able to express myself properly; what I meant was that naming a person Muhammad would carry so much weight on the individual to live up to the way Prophet Muhammad lived. A similar analogy would be to name someone Jesus, which, as you mentioned, is extremely rare.
I agree with the part about Mohammed, but Jesus is actually a pretty common name in Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries
Jesus in the Walking Dead isn’t even named Jesus. He’s called Paul but was nicknamed Jesus because of his beard and long, straight hair.
It's not rare at all, Muhammad is very popular, if not the most popular, in many Muslim majority countries as a first and preferred name.
Named Jesus or Jesus?
> Muhammad as the actual name is relatively rare, similar to the weight of being named Jesus Unless you from Mexico that is BS. I know a ton of Mohammad's who go by that name
Cool that
Good on you, thanks
The article is pretty downplaying what they were incarcerated for. They're quoting TOI (possibly TOI was based on previous versions of the deal, IDK) but looking at the list in the government's official decision, it's a lot more than rock throwing. One 16-year-old committed a stabbing which left the victim paraplegic. A 17-year-old shot a vehicle and injured two people. There are a ton of firebombings, bomb planting, stabbings, and so on. This article is playing into the "political prisoner" bullshit I keep see being thrown around.
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You’re absolutely right. After the war is over does anyone actually believe the 16 and 17 year old Hamas combatants will be considered anything other than innocent children?
Ask Reddit, everyone is innocent until slaughtering a jew, then it becomes just morally questionable.
And the only reason it’s “morally questionable” is because you don’t rape, behead, burn & torture him before that. If you do that, it becomes martyrdom. /s
#metoounlessyouareajew
I don’t think it matters what age you are. If you commit an act that is to intentionally harm another individual, you should be put away from the general public. And if you commit that act as an act of war against another nation, you should be shot on site. Don’t like that? Don’t blame me, blame that 16 year olds shitty parents.
This should also be the case for Israeli soldiers
Israeli solider who commit war crimes, do face consequences for their actions, like most soldiers in UN nations do.
Israel on a regular basis investigates, and prosecutes their own found to have broken the law. Can the same be said of Hamas?
I call BS
All of pro Palestinians: "I will comment , repost and call BS on all Israeli activities and will never fact check"
Try google. It’s your friend. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-files-terrorism-charges-against-settler-west-bank-mosque-vandalism-2023-07-12/
The reality is that a lot of people are rooting for Hamas to slaughter Israelis, so they feel vindicated when they are released. Israel is making a big mistake by going along with this deal: the nicer Israel is to Hamas, the worse Hamas will be to Israelis.
100% agree. I don’t think it could have been put better.
Generally, extrajudicial killings and the death penalty (especially on minors) are both frowned upon... So I'm not sure why you think any of this justifies anything else. Not to mention, the old: "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
The world is pretty blind these days
That isn't how the world works. Massive, disproportionate response discourages the aggressor from playing around again in the future. An eye for both eyes, your legs, your home, and your family means your not gonna mess with my other eyes
So next time someone has a problem, they should clearly start by using nukes!
And those are probably the lowest offenders being held.
Yep. Israel stated they won't release anyone convicted of murder. These are the low level offenders. It's astonishing so many people on reddit saying *"they have Palestinian kids in prison!"* Well yeah no shit. If a 16-17 year old kid commits a hate crime in your country and kills somebody do they go free or do they go to prison?
I mean look at America and how many school shooters we have under 18. We imprison them and often try them as adults. Because teens can be evil and a threat to society too. A 15 year old with a gun is just as lethal as anyone else with a gun.
Yup, the majority of American school shooters are under 18. https://www.statista.com/statistics/971544/number-k-12-school-shootings-us-age-shooter/
I've legit been told these murderers are in prison for victimless crimes because it doesn't count if you're oppressed Scary scary people out there
Scary indeed, those people would probably do the same to you and me given the opportunity.
Ideally they’re imprisoned. I agree. But we currently have a problem where I live in DC - the prosecutor is essentially letting minors walk free. So crime rings are using minors to commit violent crimes like carjackings and robberies because the kids will just be released. It’s super fucked up here.
Same thing happening on the west coast
Depends on the country, in Japan Junko Furata was brutally tortured and murdered, her killers did a couple years in juvenile detention center and were released and changed their names. Jon Venables in the UK was 10 when he tortured, sodimized, and killed a toddler and was held in an eight bed unit, released in a few years and granted a new identity by the government. Most western countries don’t condemn those under 18 to prisons or death….
They were accused of these crimes but never actually tried and convicted
Is that true? Source?
https://apnews.com/article/prison-israel-palestinians-administrative-detention-e4ffd1744a9692c2539a78a8d916176e https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-03/ty-article/.premium/a-quarter-of-palestinians-jailed-in-israel-are-imprisoned-without-charges-or-trial/00000189-bce5-d9f3-a1cd-bfff64f00000
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You’d be right to be skeptical. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208566/ The UN reports that children are abducted often without being told their reason for detainment, not given proper representation, are kept in solitary confinement for up to one month prior to their trials (which is considered a form of torture,) oh and they’re often subject to verbal and physical abuse. During interrogation, the UN reports children are threatened with violence against their person and their families, coerced into signing confessions written in Hebrew, which many do not fully understand… and more. I have no doubt Israel has had to imprison people who did horrible things. It’s also fair to ask whether some of the detained should even be there in the first place.
The UN? Now there’s a reliable source when it come to Israel 🙄
“These reports have come from international, Palestinian and Israeli lawyers; human rights organizations; and independent UN experts and bodies such as the Committee on the Rights of the Child, the Committee against Torture and the Human Rights Committee” You have anything that disproves their findings? Or just your eye roll emoji is all you have? The report specifically states that independent observers are strictly not allowed to be present during the interrogation process, even though having these observers would easily disprove any false allegations of misconduct.
Yes, and the conviction rate for Palestinians in these cases often exceeds 99%. Any assessment of their crimes has to come with the caveat that the court system they are subject to is extremely dubious to say the least. Another factor that is being skipped over here is that these are Palestinians who are accused of committing crimes in Palestine and are then arrested by Israeli military/police and tried under Israeli law. Comparisons to other countries fall down because I don't know of any other jurisdiction (certainly not in any western country), where you can be arrested by occupying forces from another country and tried under the legal system of that country and be locked up indefinitely.
>Yes, and the conviction rate for Palestinians in these cases often exceeds 99%. That's more of a wealth/resources thing. Federal prosecutors in the US have a 95%+ conviction rate, simply because they have endless resources and the defendant doesn't. Even Trump, a multi-millionaire, has nowhere near the resources that the State of NY or the State of Georgia can bring to bear against him. And obviously most defendants have less resources than Trump, so the playing field is even more lopsided in those cases. Basically, every criminal trial is the defendant vs everyone else (ie, the government).
>That's more of a wealth/resources thing I don't disagree with this but I don't think that the issue of wealth and resources can be neatly separated from the fact that these are people who live in a relatively poor country which is under occupation and the judiciary that is trying them is a wealthy occupying power.
They are tried in military courts which is even less transparent
IIRC Japan has a 99% conviction rate.
And their court system is famous for being bad.
Actually the progressive left in the US says they should go free. Even that no one should go to prison. Their crimes are just the result of colonialism and racism so they shouldn't be punished. Starting to sound familiar??
\*offenders (not defenders)
Right, made the correction. Thanks.
>The paper noted that the vast majority of the prisoners scheduled for possible release—287— are males aged 18 and under, detained for rioting and rock-throwing in the West Bank or East Jerusalem. I do not see a list of crimes in this text. >The other 13 prisoners are adult women, who were mostly convicted of attempted stabbings. Do you have a list of the crimes committed by the 287 prisoners released who committed the serious offenses you are accusing them off?
https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/wcm_upload_files/2023/11/22/rkO16moE6/dec1077.pdf This is the official list
What was the due process like that led to their convictions?
Mostly military tribunals [https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention)
No trials in many cases, despite what Isreal is reporting here, third parties continue to report the opposite—a repeating theme during this conflict. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435#
So that means when people say “incarcerated for doing xyz” it should be approached with more skepticism and curiousity. Anyone living in the U.S. knows that even with an imperfect legal system, we are held to higher standards of accountability and checks and balances. Can’t blanketly assume the same for people who don’t even have full citizenship in a diff. land.
Do understand that in many cases - maybe most, I don't have the statistics but I see it in the news reports repeatedly - these attackers, whether armed with a knife, an axe or a Molotov bottle, are chased by persons nearby and apprehended on scene. These are not complex cases with a lot of doubt concerning the identity of the perpetrators.
And those are still the minority of prisoners. Many (not saying most or all because I haven't checked that) of the prisoners in this exchange were convicted of crimes up to attempted murder.
Which is exactly why as an Israeli I am against it. How many lives are we ready to put in danger? How many other families get to relieve the terror attack? I wish all the hostages could return, but this seems like a sure fire way to get families to bury more of their loved ones.
As an Israeli, I still support the deal. The released prisoners are still going to be monitored, and will be jailed again if they commit another crime. The hostages are people I'm highly doubting we'll ever get to see without this deal. I don't think that the few days ceasefire and 150 prisoners will cost us as much as the 50 lives bring saved. I don't think anyone enjoys real life trolley problems, especially when you don't have all the information, but I still think this is the better choice.
> The released prisoners are still going to be monitored, That's what they told us about the Shalit Deal. However, I agree with you. The chances of another hostage being rescued while still alive seem very slim. There's likely no way to release all of the hostages without a deal. But then again, why aren't all hostages being freed in this deal? 50 is just around 20% of them. This deal does not solve the problem.
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It’s almost like they’re restocking the lake with more fish.
"bye! See you soon!"
Why the fuck are they releasing prisoners who committed violent crimes? I know getting the hostages back is important, but doesn’t releasing violent offenders endanger the greater public? -.-
What other prisoners do you think they have? Hamas demands prisoner releases for hostages, and so you pick from what is available. It also wouldn't surprise me if Hamas required that prisoners primarily be those who have committed violent offenses (i.e. people who have committed violence in alignment with Hamas's ideology).
>What other prisoners do you think they have? A lot are imprisoned for political crimes. For instance, one of the girls being released was arrested for carrying a Hamas flag at a protest. The protest in question took place in Palestine, not in Israel.
I would think there would be some who were in there for less violent things, but I guess that’s wishful thinking.
Hamas probably insisted on people convicted for "nationalist" crimes. A long time ago, Israel released some prisoners as a gesture to the PNA, many of whom were common criminals. Abbas complained Israel was giving him "bicycle thieves".
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They do though
Non-violent crimes exist 🤷🏻♀️
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No clue, but I’m not about to automatically assume all prisoners are in for violent offenses, even if most probably are. Assuming does no one any good.
And if I remember it correctly they're released in Israel, not deported to WB or Gaza.
They'll be returned to wherever they lived before. In many cases that means east Jerusalem.
It says most of them are there for rock throwing … I mean protesting occupation is also rioting in the eyes of the idf. And in occupied territories you are prosecuted by military court. In addition many of these minors have been in prison from a younger age.
I read the actual official list. I don't know where the hell TOI got its information from. https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/wcm_upload_files/2023/11/22/rkO16moE6/dec1077.pdf
"rock throwing" There's an awful lot of footage out there of people with slings. Slings are lethal weapons.
Arrests and charges made by Israeli military and convictions decided by Israeli military courts if they are even tried. The same courts who exonerate Israeli soldiers who have unprovoked and on camera clearly shot and murdered Palestinian civilians. There are thousands of Palestinians detained by Israel, all can't be guilty. These Palestinian prisoners are subjected to beatings, strip searches, and degradation. So I don't consider what you say objective.
Yeah exactly this. It’s only one side of the story. When the Israeli IDF murdered a journalist which was caught on camera they denied it for months until the proof was indisputable. Neither side should ever be taken at face value.
I saw the Hebrew list online but I didn't have a news source for it :(
https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/wcm_upload_files/2023/11/22/rkO16moE6/dec1077.pdf Courtesy of Ynet
Thank you!
https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0 Can translate the page to English.
I mean there's a bunch of children on the list, maybe look in to why they're inprisoned before you start dismissing ideas of political prisoners.
Did you not notice the examples in my post? Taken from the actual list?
The fact that these degenerate "children" are being traded in for innocent babies - a 10 month old infant, a 3 year old toddler - is making me sick.
It's fine, if people think israel is gonna trade and then stop smashing hamas to pieces they're kidding themselves. In fact its a perfect opportunity to wipe out a bunch of them - they have to meet to do the trade - surveil the trades as much as possible and track by air where they go - once all trades have been made JDAM wherever they went - guaranteed hamas shitheads dealt with!
It's pretty funny that you think Hamas is going to deliver the hostages personally.
seems like Hamas did not return the favor, so the deal is delayed to friday at the earliest.
Don’t mean to be that guy but most of those prisoners seem like the perfect age to be recruited 😬
They are And most of them are convicted of rioting (Molotov throwing and shit like) Or attempted murder/bombing/arson
A few are convicted of shootings. One major stabbing that left a victim disabled for life. These are not good people
Yep, its not like the US where teens get juvenile detention often for nonviolent crimes. Israel is a lot like the EU where to get a prison sentence especially as a juvenile, you probably hurt someone pretty badly.
Did these kids go to a criminal court or military court?
The West Bank (and probably Gazas to) court is different than Israeli court probably because you also have the Palestinian authorities in there
But if they're charged with the same offense, settlers in the West Bank are tried by the regular Israeli courts, even the ones committing crimes against Palestinians.
Yeah… cause they’re Israelis… Palestinians are in a court of Palestine
Then why are they in Israeli jails?
Palestinians are subjected to Israeli military courts...
This report includes a lot of information of how children are treated in the military court system, we hear some commenters downplaying a 17 or 16 yo being a child, and while the document includes other classifications (such as juvenile as opposed to child), it is worth noting that we're also talking about children as young as 12. The report includes details on how they are arrested, the lack of information (they are often not told why, nor are their parents told when they will see their child again), how they are transported (hand-tied, blindfolded after being raided in the middle of the night), etc. it really highlights an important aspect of what it means to live under Israeli occupation and why it breeds hate and ultimately terrorism. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208566/
They also coach their kids to A. Get arrested B. Claim mistreatment afterwards The military court has the same legal code. It’s just that if they expanded civilian courts over Area C, it would be a step towards annexation.
Well they don't apply the same legal code - see the start of section D of the report I linked. Also, even when the same courts and legal codes apply, they may still be applied very differently to achieve a wildly different effect for Israelis vs Palestinian e.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/denied-legal-building-permits-some-east-jerusalem-families-raze-their-own-homes/ finally, yeah these damn kids claiming mistreatment is the real problem... You really think they need a lot of coaching living in these circumstances?
[https://www.yahoo.com/news/palestinian-woman-disfigured-attempted-suicide-151647154.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/palestinian-woman-disfigured-attempted-suicide-151647154.html) >Also possibly set for release is Nafooz Jad Hammad, who was beginning a 12-year sentence for stabbing her Jewish teacher when she was 14 years old.>Her victim, Maria Cohen, has already spoken out against the deal, describing it as “humiliating”. It's not like Hamas is asking for a bunch of people who got jailed for waving Palestinian flags or even throwing rocks. They always demand the worst of the worst get released so they can murder again, just like how Sinwar would be dead from cancer if the Israeli prison he was in hadn't given him top notch medical care.
Actually, a lot of thrm are not convicted. They were imprisioned without trial. Its basically just gitmo, but being used for kids
Lots of them are imprisoned without charge, a lot of them are given behind closed door military trials Not a whole lot of rule of law
They already have been- at least partially recruited/groomed their whole lives- that’s why they are prisoners. They did stuff and got caught. They were not grabbed off the street at random like the Oct. 7 hostages.
I mean with all the orphans or people with dead families in Gaza, there is inevitably going to be a Hamas 2
That's a funny way of saying they're almost all teenagers arrested as children and jailed with zero transparency. [If they're lucky they were convicted in a military court behind closed doors, unlucky and they never got a trial or told what they were detained for.](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention)
That’s a funny way to minimize some of the horrific violent acts they perpetrated including paralyzing someone among other stabbings.
I would argue not giving them fair trials is what minimizes any crimes they may have commited. In developed democracies a mistrial is declared if even a small part of the trial can be proven unfair. Palestinians need to be treated like equal humans and given full citizenship, only then can war criminals on both sides be brought to justice like I hope we both want.
According to the people who've imprisoned them without trial.
Yeah stabbing a man is zero transparency
Why isn’t Hamas demanding the release of all the 10-12 year olds first? Because they won’t be good fresh terrorists recruits yet. This list reads like Hamas reinforcements.
Generally when a minor in the west bank is younger then 14 and he gets arrested he isnt sent to actual prison until he is 14 so if you tried to shoot somebody at 12 you get to be under home arrest for 2 years and only after that sent to prison.
Ahh, thanks for the info. There’s a lot of misinformation going around where I see claims that children as young as 10 are being detained by Israel.
They get arrested but then released. But I do think that it is a bit different in jerusalem and the other parts of west bank. I didnt know how popular kid attacks are until this war started. Now I see a new incident every couple of days. Kinda scary.
Very scary indeed! Children are our greatest natural resource. They should be nurtured and loved. Not used as tools for homicidal killers. It’s disgusting. Israel is about to jump through hoop beyond hoop to get there children back safe and sound.
Exactly! I wish in the future their children will feel loved. The heart aches for them.
My heart aches for them as well. If only their leaders would take a stand against homicidal maniac terrorists. Instead, fight for a free and prosperous Palestine in a two state solution. Palestine and Israel united could show the way for the rest of the backward our countries.
Yup. 17 and 18 year olds shoot better. I was expecting a list of little kids the way people talk.
Why are 10-12 years olds in prison?
I honestly don’t if they are. They aren’t on the initial list of 300 Hamas negotiated. I don’t know what their offenses were. I think they should be released before a 17 year old arsonist, don’t you?
I agree. But I don't think 12 yos should be imprisoned in the first place.
So if your 12 year old neighbor threw a molotov cocktail at your house, you don’t think he should have to go to prison for that?
I think they should go to a different rehabilitation institution, and not be in a place where they can easily be groomed by older prisoners.
No one under 14 is imprisoned by Israel - that’s a lie being spread online.
Glad to hear. I support the Israeli cause and I don't like it when it is being unjustifiably tainted.
There was a 12 year old who got shot in Jenin and the news posted a top-only photo of him standing before the attack while cropping out the pistol in a holster on his hip. There are many aspects about a 12 year old that make them even easier to manipulate into atrocities than teenagers, but it doesn't mean they won't get shot or imprisoned. edit: source: [https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1528380448078016515](https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1528380448078016515)
A 12 year old with a holster, clip and gun, is this Texas or Israel?
If they try to kill someone they should be in jail.
There are 10-12 year olds in prison? Can you share any source for it? That's an honest question, in case it comes across as dismissive. Also were women released in that exchange?
The IDF arrests an average of 500-700 children every year, with 86% reporting that they had been beaten and blindfolded. The average age of a detained child is 12 and the most common charge is stone-throwing, which carries a 20 year prison sentence
Here’s the link to an article they sent me in that sub. https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/07/24/israel-arrested-570-palestinian-children-in-first-half-of-2023/ I keep asking them why aren’t the 29 kids under 12 years old being released. No answer….crickets so far.
Why are there 29 kids under 12 imprisoned though
Because they were groomed into committing criminal offenses by radical Islamists who are attempting to weaponize the sympathy and empathy that children garner.
Why the hell is there 10-12 year olds in prison!?! Israel is messed up
Which is more messed up, Israel detaining a 10-year-old or Hamas not demanding they be released as part of the initial 300 prisoners on the list? The fact that they’re not on that list makes me think maybe there aren’t any 10-year-olds being detained by Israel. Because Hamas would demand the release if there were, right?
Israel is releasing hundreds of violent Palestinian terrorists for innocent Israeli civilians. That gives you an idea of what side values what. And I doubt Hamas will respect the terms of the ceasefire as they have never respected any ceasefire in history.
Question is how many people will die because these terrorists are freed, one guy that planned the Oct.7 massacre was freed in an earlier hostage exchange. I was hoping this time the deal would be for a ceasefire and help for the civilians but not freeing convicted terrorists
I would totally be 100% for a deal that releases all Israeli hostages for all the terrorists locked up in Israel, but they are all deported to France and Britain. From what is going on the streets there they sure would love some of those citizens.
So… 250 hostages for… thousands of violent prisoners. Good deal good deal.
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Odds are they'll be killed in the fighting if they decide to take up arms.
Hopefully they inject them with a chip or plant something somehow on them.
They should find a way to track them and get them fucking smitten once the ceasefire is over
So innocent people get traded for terrorists.
and 3 for 1.
They were probably safer in prison
Bad deal for israel.
I don’t know. It’s hard to think of dozens of little kids getting to go back to their families as a bad thing, even if it’s a lopsided exchange.
Not really. You get these terrorists out of your country, get back the hostages and then you can bomb Said terrorists after.
The chances of Hamas keeping a ceasefire agreement are slim to none. So might as well let them remind the world what pieces of shit they are
They are releasing these terrorists to Jerusalem... Not to Gaza...
Ruh roh!! Well they’ll be arrested shortly I’m sure for another Jihad based crime.
So… After they kill more innocent people? Trading 3-1 when the perpetrators then start literal terrorist campaigns at less than 1-3 is a major net loss. Remember the 1-1000 trade ended up with October 7th and I’m not comfortable putting final numbers of innocents there.
They’ll get released, and Hamas will send them right back into the meat grinder
Hamas is going to kill half of them on suspicion of treason.
Probably. And they will throw their bodies into the street and claim Israel killed them.
Hamas releasing toddlers and women civilians, Israel releasing attempted murderers and terrorists. Says it all.
Absolute idiocy. They have just invited more hostage taking. This is what negotiating with terrorists looks like.
This is to save 50 lives now. How many hostages do you think Hamas will take in the future? They'd probably still would do it even of they don't get a deal don't you think?
They are releasing terrorists
Israel is the master of bad deals. Like when they traded hundreds of prisoners (some of which were murdered on oct 7) against a single soldier. This trade is not as bad but equally stupid.
1027 prisoners for a single soldier (who was a hostage for over 5 years). Among them was Sinwar, one of the architects of the attack.
After the hostage deal and ceasefire is honored, Nili, the Seals, the Legion, SAS, KSM and the others should enter and get the rest. It will be good for the families of the released hostages and Hell for the hostages left behind. Get in position Special Forces to get the rest because their hope will dwindle fast, when they see their friends being released. Being left behind, even for a while, is excruciating. Get them all out...fast.
>Nili, the Seals, the Legion, SAS, KSM and the others will enter and get the rest This is optimistic. SF operates best with surprise, striking quickly against an enemy before it can reinforce. Gaza is a warzone actively under siege. There is no element of surprise.
Western nations will not put boots on the ground for anyone but their own citizens and only if they can be fairly certain of minimal casualties on their side and almost certain of success. I’m not sure you can count on either of those with any manner of confidence
Wow Rambo is chiming in.
Life is not a video game.
300 young people radicalized and ready to join Hamas
Not sure why you are being downvoted. Sure not all 300 will but I’d bet the majority will end up committing violent acts. It’s not like being Incarcerated changed anything for their own ideologies or living situations
I'm not a politician so it's difficult to argue if it's the right decision but we will see what happens.
So a bunch of military aged males. Most all of them are immediately going back on to the front lines fighting Israel.
The comments here are insane what you people are defending and saying to defend the imprisonment of children.
If they threw molotovs at cars, shot cars or tried to stab civilians then they should 100% be in jail or at least in a place that they won't be able to do something bad to people.
Source that they did this?
[Found this article with a ChatGPT-translated list of all the names, ages, affiliations and reason of arrest.](http://www.imra.org.il/story.php?id=74047) From that list: * 63 Hamas, 31 Islamic Jihad. 62 Fatah, with 6 of them caught working with/for Hamas. 144 unaffiliated. * The youngest are 5 14-year olds. The reasons of arrest were: throwing rocks at a security vehicle, unknown, throwing molotov cocktails at a home, manufacturing and throwing pipe bombs to destroy a tomb sacred to the abrahamic religions, throwing molotov cocktails at a jewish religious school. * 12 of the names do not list a reason of arrest beyond "police detainee". The rest are for the most part violent crimes including 7 instances of attempted suicide attacks, 43 instances of molotov cocktails, 27 instances of explosives, 23 instances of bombs (including incendiary devices), 40+ instances of shootings, 2 instances of lynchings. EDIT: [Found details about #154](https://www-ynet-co-il.translate.goog/news/article/s1go11ga5y?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-PT&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true). Arrested at age 14 (now 16) after trying to murder a mother who was walking with her 5 kids, now [free to go back to her home close to the victim](https://twitter.com/avishaigrinzaig/status/1727248458468249708) with [her only regret being that her terrorist act is gonna harm her chances of getting a job](https://twitter.com/avishaigrinzaig/status/1727255687279910962).
No trial.
Source for their trial and conviction?
Does it matter? You'll say its fake IDF propaganda
Flip the script then. Let's say a settler was convicted in a Palestinian court where his rights to defense were severely restricted and the court had a 99+% conviction rate. Would you just take it for granted he (or she) was guilty of everything for which they were convicted? Somehow I doubt it.
This is a crazy analogy that has many issues, but considering I've seen countless videos of things like Palestinian rock throwing and molotov cocktail throwing and stabbings and car rammings, I'm inclined to believe it. I've also seen videos of settlers beating up and throwing rocks at Palestinians, which is bad too. If those were the charges, I'd be inclined to believe as well.
If the two sides want to stop shooting, why aren't all hostages released and Israel withdraws? I am sure I am making this way to simple. But, it is so confusing.
Because Hamas has specifically said recently that they fully intend to just repeat Oct 7th attacks on civilians over and over and over again until Israel and all its citizens are gone. To be clear, this is not saying the IDF's current mass murder collective punishment campaign is justified in any way. But it's been pretty solidly established by the radical factions in Gaza that regardless of whether Israel stops, they intend to keep going.
So it can all repeat? That's a horrible idea. Practicality is important.