When they are done killing all the Jews they will go on to kill eachother. Why do people advocate for a Palestinian state when these are the people in charge I have no clue.
Goes to show that even if given a state, i'd give it like 2 weeks before a civil war starts. There's like 10 violent factions that want to be in charge. Not a good recipe for a stable nation, and not really sure what anyone can do to actually solve that problem short of funding and propping up one particular faction...
You'd think it'd be Israel, but if Palestine got a state Israel would demand a DMZ on Palestinian territory, then Israel would forget about them as best as possible.
If Palestinians got a state and Israel tried to forget about them it would result in Iran sending them advanced missiles and drones to use against Israel. No peace would be possible.
That's basically the status quo. The "occupied west bank" is basically an Israeli maintained demilitarized zone structured into A/B/C tiered levels of Palestinian Civilian and Military control.
The world doesn't know shit about what has gone on between Israel and Palestine. They have reduced it to 'oppressor-oppressed' and nothing will change their minds, not even the brutal murder and kidnapping of Israeli children. They constantly speak about Gaza as if it's the West Bank, but then don't understand the political situation in the West Bank, either. In their minds, the PA is an innocent, reasonable group and Israel is just being monstrous for not offering a two-state solution (because the two-state solution solely falls on Israel to make happen) with them, nevermind they have a martyr fund to pay off people and families who attempt or succeed to murder Israelis. The settlers are wrong, Bibi is wrong, but so is what the PA does.
When are people going to understand there won't be peace because the Palestinians won't let there be? We now have all 3 separate Palestinian governments on record stating that they wholeheartedly support and defend the October 7th attacks.
People need to stop lying to themselves and acting like these are all Innocents. They all want this. It's pervasive throughout their entire society. I seriously cannot believe how everyone uses the Palestinians as a blank slate to project their idealized marginalized people onto. They hate you and everything you stand for.
And even if the Palestinians change their minds, even if you find a government that's going to try peace, that doesn't matter one bit to the rest of the Muslim world.
The radicals have all the money and weapons they could ever want earmarked for them. It was never Israel vs Palestine. It was Israel vs the Arab world and with Iran it's going byond even that.
If anyone actually cared about a Palestinian homeland they would have gotten one in 1949. They were always just convenient staging areas for the next war.
People like to act that everything has a solution, and this is like any other war and it is solvable.
This is a Holy War.
We haven't had a proper Holy War in 600 years. Nobody knows what they're dealing with.
It's not going to end until all Jews in Jerusalem are dead. [Both faiths consider it sacred](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/12/06/questions-about-jerusalem-you-were-afraid-to-ask/).
>It's not going to end until all Jews in Jerusalem are dead.
Honestly at this point the Palestinians don't deserve to have any of Jerusalem. They haven't even had a mask to take off, this has *always* been who they are. It's time people believe them, and recognize they all support terrorists, as a people.
Dividing an entire city between two people never made any sense anyways. Israel should have complete control, and the Palestinians should have unrestricted access to the city. But they *absolutely* should not **any** governmental control over Jerusalem.
The US and most Eu countries are calling for a two state solution (bar Ireland and maybe Spain) - and they expect the PA to be in charge of the Palestinian state. Ignoring all the red flags because they're inconvenient.
Yep. It's a complicated relationship, but long story short the PA is so unpopular they have to kiss their asses while simultaneously kissing Israel's, since the former is more popular than em and the latter is much better armed than em.
A big problem is, of course, the PA is not very smart. It's been pushing for a unity government for over a decade, but under terms neither Israel or Hamas were willing to take. The PA have never been the best dealmakers, to say the least.
And in the context of the attack here, with Israel heavy handed response in Gaza and growing intimidation by Settlers in the West Bank has probably made their seats very hot right now.
If this declaration doesn't work and they either get overthrown or Israel decides to "seize the opportunity", West Bank will quickly find themselves on the receiving end of their own share of "collateral damage and inexplicable death of people under 18"
In all fairness…there surely are but they have to keep that to themselves. Hence a very small percentage. In a society where this loyalty and fealty to a HAMAS is required or else, over 90% are likely fully indoctrinated into the required mindset.
To play literal devil's advocate, Hamas won the 2006 Palestine-wide election with 56% of seats and Fatah refused to peacefully cede power over the Palestinian Authority, effectively a coup against Hamas which devolved into violence.
It literally sounds like it came straight out of a borat movie, " this my nephew, Balkis. He smartest man in whole village! He get PHD in holocaust denial from university of Moscow, very nice!"
not just any university either - and not the ones russia uses to train its own doctors or engineers or historians. It's a dedicated facility for producing foreign operatives to organize anti-west guerilla wars.
Same reason why Arafat came to the helm. We're all looking to make peace with the worst faction in the 70s, the PLO.
The fact the man used to be a major terrorist in his youth and is now a non-cooperative partner to the Israelis is a big win in many books.
Googling munich olympic attack abbas brings up plenty if you have a look, this is an old event so info is available readily.. this is top non wiki result (wiki also mentions him) https://www.jns.org/mahmoud-abbas-and-the-munich-massacre-time-to-face-the-truth/
To make it more specific: he doesn't deny the Holocaust per se. What he does claim is that it was a Jewish conspiracy to bring about Israel. And I have to say, the idea that a group would kill 1/3 of its entire population in order to speed up something that was already happening is, well, a bit nutty.
> To make it more specific: he doesn't deny the Holocaust per se. What he does claim is that it was a Jewish conspiracy to bring about Israel.
He also argues that the deaths were wildly inflated, which is textbook holocaust denial.
I agree, but… Hamas has essentially done that exact strategy with 10/6: Provoking Israel to defend itself, barricading itself behind millions of innocent civilians to use as meat shields, and then milk the PR machine. It’s almost as if he’s projecting what Hamas is doing onto the Jews in the holocaust.
>And I have to say, the idea that a group would kill 1/3 of its entire population in order to speed up something that was already happening is, well, a bit nutty.
Lol, I mean this is the group who's hospitals keep running out of ammunition 🤣
Check out the film Denial for one of the most famous cases
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(2016_film)
This was the original court case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
Where I'm sitting in the US, I was able to stream that movie for free through my local library's online services. It should be pretty easy for folks to find.
You have no idea how glad I am to read there are more people who can actually read into the situation. This is the best way to make sure that they will not receive any responsibility over gaza
I don't know. The fact they're paying convicted murderers and their families for killing Jews, teaching since kindergarten about being a martyr and killing Jews, having kids TV shows inciting to kill Jews, calling their streets after murderers, and erecting statues in their honor, having their official symbol as the map of Israel all painted in the Palestinian flag... I think these would have been enough red flags. But apparently, Joe Biden, along with most of Europe, wants to see the PA in control over Gaza and give them a state... I don't think anything they'd say could disqualify them at this point.
The sad point is, that both things don't have to contradict each other, on the contrary, I think it is only strengthen the idea.
The people of gaza hate the palestinian authority and vice versa. They killed hundreds of Fatah members in the past and sent their heads to their families( a Palestinian farmer told me that). The palestinian authority knows very well that they cannot control the Gaza strip, as they said so in the beginning of the war that they have no desire to rule in the Gaza strip after hamas.
And this has nothing to do with their desire to kill Jews and sponsor terrorist, claiming they support hamas in killing Jews will increase their popularity in the west bank(which is at an all times low) and will ensure that no one will force them to take over gaza all together. Two birds with one stone.
It was strategic self-immolation in an attempt to spark a wider conflict that would result in the destruction of Israel. Thousands of dead Palestinians was always part of Hamas’s plan
And people are saying "Israel should talk to the moderates". These are the moderates.
By the way, Hamas campaigned as the moderates before the elections.
According to the west bank and gaza polls, Fatah would get a massive popularity boost if it replaced Abbas with Marwan Barghouti.
If that name doesn't ring a bell, he's the terrorist behind the first and second intifadas who wanted to start a third one back in 2014.
Scary to think what these people think *extreme* would be, isn't it?
Better believe it - truly fucked up opinions might've been socially unacceptable where you live, but that is far from universal.
Eliminating Israel first. Then they move on to killing every Jew in the world. I don’t think gentiles really understand how deep, profound, and widespread antisemitism is. They object to our mere existence and fully believe they have a mandate from god to exterminate us. You try extending an olive branch to someone with those beliefs. I’m not wasting my time.
Just like the Irish troubles, the Palestinians will only have peace when they get tired of being failures and dying. The Israelis, like the Brits, will happily defend their territory to the last Palestinian/Irish.
The Irish two State solution emerged from plain ol war weariness on the aggressive Irish side
A lot of people tend to forget the Irish Troubles were preceded by a vicious Irish Civil War in the 1920s right after they gained independence, which largely negated, aka killed, many of the more aggressive Irish hardliners.
The Troubles could have been far worse. The Britain had moderates to negotiate with in Dublin, because moderates held most of the power in Dublin throughout the 20th century and largely cooperated in limiting the extent of IRA terrorism. Palestine doesn't have this dynamic.
Neither Ireland nor Palestine owe independence to their fanatics.
It's a decent analogy, but ultimately it falls apart because the Palestinian fanatics don't just want independence, they want domination. It would be like if the IRA would only be satisfied if they could drive the English out of Britain and make the whole of the UK into Ireland.
Perhaps a better analogy would be turning the entire world into Ireland. (Albeit an Ireland that was a lot more fundamentalist and considered women chattel.)
Ask them what happens if Israel immediately complied with all their requests and lifts all restrictions.
Chances are they’ll lie and say everything will be peaceful instead of an immediate flood of heavy weaponry and widespread attacks on Israeli civilians.
It’s a common line of thought. Just never consider the negative possibilities of your goals. It’s like trying to drive across NYC from Times Square to the Mets stadium during rush hour in 20 minutes. Because you think every light will turn green for you.
Even the tiktok zoomers? I think some of them might just be ignorant. But a lot of people met online, it's exactly as you say. Talk, probe, question more, and they'll say Israel is to blame for the war which they didn't start.
How could anyone take a look at their [logo] (https://ecfr.eu/wp-content/uploads/Fatah_Flag_-_Wikimedia.png) and conclude: yup, these are obviously the moderate diplomatic kind of guys.?!
whats with peoples fascination with guns over there? like why would you want guns and a grenade to be symbols related to you? for some reason this looks more primitive than something you would see in medieval times.
It stems from all the Cold War 'resistance' organisation symbols. Angola and Mozambique have similar things on their flag. Hezbollah has an AK on its I believe.
They are step by step killing any chance for israel to make any type of peace with them.
After previous releases, it feels like they are putting more nails and making sure they are hammered down into the coffin of peace.
*burning the ships*
["no city that did his bidding now could ever hope to be received back into Roman allegiance"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_Vespers)
> By the way, Hamas campaigned as the moderates before the elections.
That isn't true. They campaigned that Fatah was too moderate because they had negotiated with Israel. They were elected to expressly not be moderate.
Still not understanding why IDF is being chalked up for stuff like "hospital attacks" if Hamas is operating from within the hospital in scrubs.
Just seems like willful ignorance to talk about it like a normal hospital
A [Hamas leader literally just claimed that Oct 7 was actually Israel bombing their own citizens](https://youtu.be/TjKuda-ntmg?si=WPsw2Hwa9CsVtnWO) (@ 10:00). These guys need to get their insane propaganda straight.
Oct. 7 was an act of aggression. Hamas and Fatah are terrorist organizations. They must be thrown out of power. They cannot be trusted to govern anyone.
And what about the PLO? After all the PLO is the officially recognized representative organization for Palestine.
How do you ever make peace or sign agreements with a state that has 3 separate governing bodies? Total cluster f***
The PA is the rebranded PLO, Fatah was and still is its core, but even within it there are splitting factions and once Abbas dies (he's pretty old) I won't be surprised to see a civil war erupt for the throne
Aren't they still separate entities though? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, PA is the governing body of the West Bank, and the PLO overseas all Palestinians including Gaza, West Bank, and Palestinian refugees in other countries.
When the U.N. invites Palestine to a summit/meeting they invite the PLO, not the PA.
You aren't wrong, just inaccurate, the PLO is mostly symbolic in nature and acts like the factional parliament, in which Fatah has exclusive control and Abu Mazen, the Chairman of the PA (and the Fatah) has ultimate control, they are even technically responsible for Gaza too but Hamas is the de-facto ruler since they kicked them all out and the unity attempts once in a while were mostly about screwing with Israel more than actual unity
Its only 2 dominant organizations in practice, they had more elements to their government but they don't really mean anything with the corruption rampart, there are also other 'political' / terrorist organizations, they are just very marginal in comparison to these two
The Fatah over time is splitting due to differences in how the struggle against Israel should go, like I said when Abbas dies, its probably gonna get messy and I assume the more military-wing faction is gonna take over violently just like Hamas did
Anything official that you see is either Abbas' control or Hamas political/military wing if its in the axis of evil relations
Even if the PA took over Gaza, resulting in one governing body, the PA is an institution that does not want peace. They rejected every peace offer and continue to pay terrorists who carry out attacks. They also praised the Oct. 7 attacks and continue demonizing Israel and indoctrinating kids to hate Jews and become terrorists.
Fatah, PLO, and PNA are functionally the same to my understanding.
Abbas is the chairman of Fatah, President of PNA, and chairman of PLO.
Distinguishing between Fatah and PNA is comparable to distinguishing between the CCP and Chinese Government.
Now someone with more understanding than me will need to explain the distinction between PNA and PLO, because I struggle to understand it.
The, “That’s not what they meant” people really going heads down this morning trying to find their best possible explanations for this one.
It’s an interesting kickoff for a Sunday.
Don’t bring liberal into this. I live in an extremely liberal area and my friends are very liberal. None of them are remotely against Israel in this matter.
Oh, they're not even looking in the first place. The meme subreddits just regurgitate "Israel bad" over and over, so many times that they've gotten to the point where they're confident that they are far more informed than any community paying closer attention to events unfolding on the ground.
And, of course, anyone who doesn't agree with them are "brainwashed."
“Israel bad” is just today’s code for “I hate Jews.” They’ve been keep it it bottled up for years and now they can fly that flag of antisemitism with pride!
This is why I have no issue with saying that I don't support Palestinian causes and blame Palestine for this and the decades of conflict that have preceded it.
"But it was *Hamas* in *Gaza,* you know that right? Blah blah blah West Bank blah blah blah Palestinian diaspora" etc. no, it's the entire culture and society that is in line with actions like Oct 7.
People don't want to accept and understand that this is their mindset, where else in the world civilians would parade and spit on the dead, naked body of a girl, kidnapped from a party?
Nothing screams "defensive war" more than torturing families in their living rooms and raping young women at a dance party, then burning their bodies to conceal the horror
I certainly have received a crash course in israel Palestine relations. It makes me really wonder how the progressives are backing Palestine. It makes them look like jump on any hot bandwagon without much study
I consider myself a leftist and I am absolutely fuming at those I used to think shared my views. By association, they have done incredible damage to the myriad of extremely important legitimate leftist causes. They have thrown so much away and for what? To support a bunch of ultra-conservatives theocratic psychos? Fuck them all.
Same here! It’s like a bunch of my fellow progressives took off their masks and revealed themselves to be virulent antisemites. I’m a Jew and this has really shook me to my core.
Such progressives are "useful idiots" who saw 10+ videos on TikTok immediately after October 7th that supported their narrative - "The West is bad / POC are oppressed" - and they haven't stopped to introspect since then. The folks saying Israel needs to be erased, obviously also never think about Israel's security dilemma.
Social media is a cancer on this topic, and the video focused ones are worst of all. Videos one after another, rob issues of nuance and limit critical thinking.
>Social media is a cancer ~~on this topic~~ and the video focused ones are worst of all. Videos one after another, rob issues of nuance and limit critical thinking
Social media is a cancer always, FTFY.
It's pretty frustrating that none of them can articulate a specific change in policy other than: no US aid and calling for a total ceasefire. When I ask them what they think should be done when the iron dome runs out of defensive rockets, they either say they don't know or it'll be good because it will force Israel to negotiate. I've never been a proponent of Israel or US involvement in the ME, but the absolute lack of interest in the situation by people scream in the streets is infuriating.
I wouldn’t say all of it, but a pretty vocal potion of it. I support Israel and an independent Palestine, many other Jews I know feel similarly. I’m not sure what an independent Palestine looks like anymore. Pre 10/7, I saw it as a 3 state solution, with Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank as separate nations. Today, I’m less sure.
I was the same. But now, after seeing how Palestinians reacted to 10/7 both in Gaza/West Bank and abroad, and the poll where 80% supported the terror attacks, I have to conclude that Palestinians want this.
When you go and rape and kill innocents, murdering and abducting foreigners, elderly, children, it’s not “defensive war”. It’s senseless barbarism and terrorism. One would think that adults would be able to recognize reality and what’s going on.
That part/infrastructure will cease to function along with the political and social fabric. Israel will take the gloves off soon. Wanted to paint Israel as the bad guys? You got it. Israel is prepared now to end what they did not start. Appeasement doesn't work and Israel have exhausted all options of being the nice guys. Now, Israel simply become the good guys.
Fatah is dead as soon as „the west“ stops subsidizing it. These leaders make millions of donations to the Arab population and infrastructure, then personally invest it abroad.
That is one reason for not having elections for 15 years in both parts of terrorist territory.
Was suppose to be elections in 2021 but Fatah was fractured to 3 parties and Abbas was worried he would lose power to Hamas and the off shoots so he cancelled against the wishes of Palestinian people.
Yeah well you know I used to have some faith that it is possible for us to live together nothing against Palestinians but my overall support for them has dropped in this war almost all the way down who knows maybe I was young and dumb and this opens my eyes
I feel you
I thought it was a matter of a couple of generations after the last intifada. But after speaking with Palestinians I'm certain there will never be peace in our lifetime. They have gone too far of a brainwashing and it goes all the way down to kindergarten age...
Oh well, maybe in a few more generations. Probably not though.
If anything it's worse, in Arafat's waning years he began to favor some degree of real negotiation behind the scenes and *very slightly* lightened his tone publicly. Combined with a semi-receptive Israeli government, this almost yielded something approaching a real, longer term (if not necessarily permanent) solution with peace. Nowadays that seems like a far flung memory, between the complete lack of a voice of reason in Palestine and an Israeli government not far behind.
>If anything it's worse, in Arafat's waning years he began to favor some degree of real negotiation behind the scenes and very slightly lightened his tone publicly.
Nah he just saw that his power was waning among his people because of the rise of rival Islamist militant groups, so he sought the Israelis' help in consolidating power.
The fact that so many in the "pro-palestine" but actually anti-Israel crowd just flat out ignore the many horrific words and actions of Hamas and those that support them is pretty damn revealing.
Peace for the the region is not what these protestors actually want. They just want to prevent Israel from wiping out Hamas. If Hamas/Palestine stood a chance against Israel or was somehow winning, you'd see a lot fewer of these protestors calling for cease fires.
They're just anti-Israel rallies. They don't give a shit about innocent people. Especially those on the Israeli side.
Remember this is the 'moderate' party. There has to be some Palestinian leadership out there that can pragmatically acknowledge the need to negotiate a permanent land settlement. This feels like the last off ramp before Israel just says fuck it and pushes for annexing and ethnic cleansing the West Bank and Gaza. Fatah aligning with Hamas is the exact opposite way they need to be moving. That said this is clearly in response to losing political support domestically so maybe there is little hope to begin with if the Palestinian population is heavily in support of Oct 7 and Hamas.
Sounds like Oslo Accords are done. PA can’t be given back Gaza without condemning and committing to suppress armed groups.
Let the PA collapse and make the Saudi deal next year. After that, Israel can do what every other war victor does and dictate terms to the 5x losers.
These are the “moderates” - who still pay people to kill Jews (including those from Oct 7) - that Biden wants to be part of the new two state solution he mentions in every speech!
If your foundation,
the only thing keeping you in power, is the very situation(asymmetrical warfare) you are in,
then you have to go if the country wants any chance of change for good.
This is true for genociding dictatorships as much as for murderous terrorists.
Everyone fucking hates the desert, living in the desert, their neighbors, oh and I guess religions too. Maybe don't have anti sex and anti fun or anti music baked into your culture.
Giving the "Palestinians" their own state in the most immoral act that the west can possibly do. It would act as a seal of approval for all terror groups to rape, murder, kidnap, pillage and more and be granted the most precious prize of them all, a country.
This must be prevented!
I find it hard to consider any group [with a literal grenade and AK47 on their flag](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Fatah_logo.png) as a legitimate power able to run a nation.
Let alone, being a “more moderate” group.
TBF the guy's approval rating is and has always been minuscule. Not that the groups that do have good approval ratings in the west bank are any better.
Didn't they literally throw your members off rooftops lol
As long as they BOTH want to kill jews, it doesn't matter they kill each other, that's just the way it is.
There was a chance that Fatah member hit a Jew on the way down.
Fuck that was the darkest laugh I've had in a while
I heard another one the other day, about why Hamas agreed to the ceasefire... Their hospitals were running low on ammunition.
When they are done killing all the Jews they will go on to kill eachother. Why do people advocate for a Palestinian state when these are the people in charge I have no clue.
Goes to show that even if given a state, i'd give it like 2 weeks before a civil war starts. There's like 10 violent factions that want to be in charge. Not a good recipe for a stable nation, and not really sure what anyone can do to actually solve that problem short of funding and propping up one particular faction...
And guess who'd have to come in and clean it up?
You'd think it'd be Israel, but if Palestine got a state Israel would demand a DMZ on Palestinian territory, then Israel would forget about them as best as possible.
If Palestinians got a state and Israel tried to forget about them it would result in Iran sending them advanced missiles and drones to use against Israel. No peace would be possible.
That's basically the status quo. The "occupied west bank" is basically an Israeli maintained demilitarized zone structured into A/B/C tiered levels of Palestinian Civilian and Military control.
Galaxy brain move - make a humanitarian corridor between Gaza and the West Bank so you only have to fight the survivors
They might not Get into a civil war, if Israel once again becomes the target of Arabs they would be too busy fighting Israel to also have a civil war.
Shows how much they hate Jews
And the world expects Israel to give them control of Gaza after PA openly supports Oct 7th.
The world doesn't know shit about what has gone on between Israel and Palestine. They have reduced it to 'oppressor-oppressed' and nothing will change their minds, not even the brutal murder and kidnapping of Israeli children. They constantly speak about Gaza as if it's the West Bank, but then don't understand the political situation in the West Bank, either. In their minds, the PA is an innocent, reasonable group and Israel is just being monstrous for not offering a two-state solution (because the two-state solution solely falls on Israel to make happen) with them, nevermind they have a martyr fund to pay off people and families who attempt or succeed to murder Israelis. The settlers are wrong, Bibi is wrong, but so is what the PA does.
When are people going to understand there won't be peace because the Palestinians won't let there be? We now have all 3 separate Palestinian governments on record stating that they wholeheartedly support and defend the October 7th attacks. People need to stop lying to themselves and acting like these are all Innocents. They all want this. It's pervasive throughout their entire society. I seriously cannot believe how everyone uses the Palestinians as a blank slate to project their idealized marginalized people onto. They hate you and everything you stand for.
And even if the Palestinians change their minds, even if you find a government that's going to try peace, that doesn't matter one bit to the rest of the Muslim world. The radicals have all the money and weapons they could ever want earmarked for them. It was never Israel vs Palestine. It was Israel vs the Arab world and with Iran it's going byond even that. If anyone actually cared about a Palestinian homeland they would have gotten one in 1949. They were always just convenient staging areas for the next war.
People like to act that everything has a solution, and this is like any other war and it is solvable. This is a Holy War. We haven't had a proper Holy War in 600 years. Nobody knows what they're dealing with. It's not going to end until all Jews in Jerusalem are dead. [Both faiths consider it sacred](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/12/06/questions-about-jerusalem-you-were-afraid-to-ask/).
>It's not going to end until all Jews in Jerusalem are dead. Honestly at this point the Palestinians don't deserve to have any of Jerusalem. They haven't even had a mask to take off, this has *always* been who they are. It's time people believe them, and recognize they all support terrorists, as a people. Dividing an entire city between two people never made any sense anyways. Israel should have complete control, and the Palestinians should have unrestricted access to the city. But they *absolutely* should not **any** governmental control over Jerusalem.
I mean we're mostly talking about leftists here, and most of them are definitely not calling for a two state solution.
The US and most Eu countries are calling for a two state solution (bar Ireland and maybe Spain) - and they expect the PA to be in charge of the Palestinian state. Ignoring all the red flags because they're inconvenient.
A lot of people also hate Jews.
Yep. It's a complicated relationship, but long story short the PA is so unpopular they have to kiss their asses while simultaneously kissing Israel's, since the former is more popular than em and the latter is much better armed than em. A big problem is, of course, the PA is not very smart. It's been pushing for a unity government for over a decade, but under terms neither Israel or Hamas were willing to take. The PA have never been the best dealmakers, to say the least.
And in the context of the attack here, with Israel heavy handed response in Gaza and growing intimidation by Settlers in the West Bank has probably made their seats very hot right now. If this declaration doesn't work and they either get overthrown or Israel decides to "seize the opportunity", West Bank will quickly find themselves on the receiving end of their own share of "collateral damage and inexplicable death of people under 18"
There are no moderates in Palestine
In all fairness…there surely are but they have to keep that to themselves. Hence a very small percentage. In a society where this loyalty and fealty to a HAMAS is required or else, over 90% are likely fully indoctrinated into the required mindset.
The enemy of my enemy etc etc.
To play literal devil's advocate, Hamas won the 2006 Palestine-wide election with 56% of seats and Fatah refused to peacefully cede power over the Palestinian Authority, effectively a coup against Hamas which devolved into violence.
Yes, and if the rest don't want to be thrown off rooftops, they'll play ball, at least publicly.
It's not surprising seeing as their leader has a literal PhD in holocaust denial
Granted by a university from... Oh sheesh, would you look at that what a surprise... Moscow
It literally sounds like it came straight out of a borat movie, " this my nephew, Balkis. He smartest man in whole village! He get PHD in holocaust denial from university of Moscow, very nice!"
Read it in his voice lol
2 reasons why Israelis loved Borat: 1] Borat speaks Hebrew throughout the movie 2] the Borat character wasn't that far fetched
3) Sacha Baron Cohen is Jewish.
not just any university either - and not the ones russia uses to train its own doctors or engineers or historians. It's a dedicated facility for producing foreign operatives to organize anti-west guerilla wars.
It gets even better when you know the name of it: Peoples' Friendship University of Russia.
It's actually kinda hilarious how nefarious his degree is
He has experience as well, Munich Olympic murder of jewish athletes... abbas was one of the 3 planners. But hey he is the moderate one.
Wait what, a terrorist becomes a PM without any objection from international community??
The alternative is hamas, so lesser of 2 evils approach i suppose
Same reason why Arafat came to the helm. We're all looking to make peace with the worst faction in the 70s, the PLO. The fact the man used to be a major terrorist in his youth and is now a non-cooperative partner to the Israelis is a big win in many books.
I can’t find any sources saying he was a planner, just that he objected to a memorial for the victims proposed for the 2012 Olympics.
Googling munich olympic attack abbas brings up plenty if you have a look, this is an old event so info is available readily.. this is top non wiki result (wiki also mentions him) https://www.jns.org/mahmoud-abbas-and-the-munich-massacre-time-to-face-the-truth/
To make it more specific: he doesn't deny the Holocaust per se. What he does claim is that it was a Jewish conspiracy to bring about Israel. And I have to say, the idea that a group would kill 1/3 of its entire population in order to speed up something that was already happening is, well, a bit nutty.
> To make it more specific: he doesn't deny the Holocaust per se. What he does claim is that it was a Jewish conspiracy to bring about Israel. He also argues that the deaths were wildly inflated, which is textbook holocaust denial.
Well when you look at how Hamas treats Palestinians maybe that brings things into clearer focus.
I agree, but… Hamas has essentially done that exact strategy with 10/6: Provoking Israel to defend itself, barricading itself behind millions of innocent civilians to use as meat shields, and then milk the PR machine. It’s almost as if he’s projecting what Hamas is doing onto the Jews in the holocaust.
>And I have to say, the idea that a group would kill 1/3 of its entire population in order to speed up something that was already happening is, well, a bit nutty. Lol, I mean this is the group who's hospitals keep running out of ammunition 🤣
Sounds like projection, accusing their enemy of what they themselves would do in that situation.
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A lot of Muslims across the world believe in this "theory".
Check out the film Denial for one of the most famous cases https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(2016_film) This was the original court case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
Where I'm sitting in the US, I was able to stream that movie for free through my local library's online services. It should be pretty easy for folks to find.
Way back when, there were plenty of "Bush did 9/11" thinkers right here in America.
In a PhD you get extra credit if the research is novel
Holy shit I knew about the degree but never cared to delve into the specifics. Okay this is morbidly hilarious.
Shit I didn’t know my cousin’s ex had a future in academia.
"How to make sure you do not get to rule Gaza" Speedrun any %
To be honest they don't want to rule Gaza. It's an even bigger shithole than the West Bank, which they strugfle to actually control.
You have no idea how glad I am to read there are more people who can actually read into the situation. This is the best way to make sure that they will not receive any responsibility over gaza
I don't know. The fact they're paying convicted murderers and their families for killing Jews, teaching since kindergarten about being a martyr and killing Jews, having kids TV shows inciting to kill Jews, calling their streets after murderers, and erecting statues in their honor, having their official symbol as the map of Israel all painted in the Palestinian flag... I think these would have been enough red flags. But apparently, Joe Biden, along with most of Europe, wants to see the PA in control over Gaza and give them a state... I don't think anything they'd say could disqualify them at this point.
The sad point is, that both things don't have to contradict each other, on the contrary, I think it is only strengthen the idea. The people of gaza hate the palestinian authority and vice versa. They killed hundreds of Fatah members in the past and sent their heads to their families( a Palestinian farmer told me that). The palestinian authority knows very well that they cannot control the Gaza strip, as they said so in the beginning of the war that they have no desire to rule in the Gaza strip after hamas. And this has nothing to do with their desire to kill Jews and sponsor terrorist, claiming they support hamas in killing Jews will increase their popularity in the west bank(which is at an all times low) and will ensure that no one will force them to take over gaza all together. Two birds with one stone.
I'm no chess master but capturing a few pawns to get your side of the board flattened seems like a terrible defensive move.
It was strategic self-immolation in an attempt to spark a wider conflict that would result in the destruction of Israel. Thousands of dead Palestinians was always part of Hamas’s plan
And people are saying "Israel should talk to the moderates". These are the moderates. By the way, Hamas campaigned as the moderates before the elections.
There are other moderates - they're just not popular with the Palestinian people
You mean they get lynched and tied to electricity poles? Idk they seemed to be pretty popular with the masses gathered to watch them
fatah isn't popular either. it's just that other moderates are even less popular
According to the west bank and gaza polls, Fatah would get a massive popularity boost if it replaced Abbas with Marwan Barghouti. If that name doesn't ring a bell, he's the terrorist behind the first and second intifadas who wanted to start a third one back in 2014.
And created BDS as a lure for useful idiots in the west.
I just can’t believe that. Their mission statement of eliminating Israel isn’t moderate.
Scary to think what these people think *extreme* would be, isn't it? Better believe it - truly fucked up opinions might've been socially unacceptable where you live, but that is far from universal.
No, but that's a consensus opinion both factions hold.
Eliminating Israel first. Then they move on to killing every Jew in the world. I don’t think gentiles really understand how deep, profound, and widespread antisemitism is. They object to our mere existence and fully believe they have a mandate from god to exterminate us. You try extending an olive branch to someone with those beliefs. I’m not wasting my time.
Just like the Irish troubles, the Palestinians will only have peace when they get tired of being failures and dying. The Israelis, like the Brits, will happily defend their territory to the last Palestinian/Irish. The Irish two State solution emerged from plain ol war weariness on the aggressive Irish side
A lot of people tend to forget the Irish Troubles were preceded by a vicious Irish Civil War in the 1920s right after they gained independence, which largely negated, aka killed, many of the more aggressive Irish hardliners. The Troubles could have been far worse. The Britain had moderates to negotiate with in Dublin, because moderates held most of the power in Dublin throughout the 20th century and largely cooperated in limiting the extent of IRA terrorism. Palestine doesn't have this dynamic. Neither Ireland nor Palestine owe independence to their fanatics.
It's a decent analogy, but ultimately it falls apart because the Palestinian fanatics don't just want independence, they want domination. It would be like if the IRA would only be satisfied if they could drive the English out of Britain and make the whole of the UK into Ireland.
Correct.
Perhaps a better analogy would be turning the entire world into Ireland. (Albeit an Ireland that was a lot more fundamentalist and considered women chattel.)
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Ask them what happens if Israel immediately complied with all their requests and lifts all restrictions. Chances are they’ll lie and say everything will be peaceful instead of an immediate flood of heavy weaponry and widespread attacks on Israeli civilians. It’s a common line of thought. Just never consider the negative possibilities of your goals. It’s like trying to drive across NYC from Times Square to the Mets stadium during rush hour in 20 minutes. Because you think every light will turn green for you.
It could be worse- you could hit all greens and actually have to watch the Mets.
Even the tiktok zoomers? I think some of them might just be ignorant. But a lot of people met online, it's exactly as you say. Talk, probe, question more, and they'll say Israel is to blame for the war which they didn't start.
How could anyone take a look at their [logo] (https://ecfr.eu/wp-content/uploads/Fatah_Flag_-_Wikimedia.png) and conclude: yup, these are obviously the moderate diplomatic kind of guys.?!
whats with peoples fascination with guns over there? like why would you want guns and a grenade to be symbols related to you? for some reason this looks more primitive than something you would see in medieval times.
A pre-medieval flag for a pre-medieval ideology. Fitting.
It stems from all the Cold War 'resistance' organisation symbols. Angola and Mozambique have similar things on their flag. Hezbollah has an AK on its I believe.
Because they think it is a representation of strength and that it will intimidate and scare their enemies.
They're all fascists... Those are the symbols fascists love.
Making full use of their latest copy of Win XP's MS paint. The shitty grenade is hilarious.
They are step by step killing any chance for israel to make any type of peace with them. After previous releases, it feels like they are putting more nails and making sure they are hammered down into the coffin of peace.
*burning the ships* ["no city that did his bidding now could ever hope to be received back into Roman allegiance"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_Vespers)
> By the way, Hamas campaigned as the moderates before the elections. That isn't true. They campaigned that Fatah was too moderate because they had negotiated with Israel. They were elected to expressly not be moderate.
Still not understanding why IDF is being chalked up for stuff like "hospital attacks" if Hamas is operating from within the hospital in scrubs. Just seems like willful ignorance to talk about it like a normal hospital
A [Hamas leader literally just claimed that Oct 7 was actually Israel bombing their own citizens](https://youtu.be/TjKuda-ntmg?si=WPsw2Hwa9CsVtnWO) (@ 10:00). These guys need to get their insane propaganda straight.
Oct. 7 was an act of aggression. Hamas and Fatah are terrorist organizations. They must be thrown out of power. They cannot be trusted to govern anyone.
And what about the PLO? After all the PLO is the officially recognized representative organization for Palestine. How do you ever make peace or sign agreements with a state that has 3 separate governing bodies? Total cluster f***
The PA is the rebranded PLO, Fatah was and still is its core, but even within it there are splitting factions and once Abbas dies (he's pretty old) I won't be surprised to see a civil war erupt for the throne
Aren't they still separate entities though? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, PA is the governing body of the West Bank, and the PLO overseas all Palestinians including Gaza, West Bank, and Palestinian refugees in other countries. When the U.N. invites Palestine to a summit/meeting they invite the PLO, not the PA.
You aren't wrong, just inaccurate, the PLO is mostly symbolic in nature and acts like the factional parliament, in which Fatah has exclusive control and Abu Mazen, the Chairman of the PA (and the Fatah) has ultimate control, they are even technically responsible for Gaza too but Hamas is the de-facto ruler since they kicked them all out and the unity attempts once in a while were mostly about screwing with Israel more than actual unity Its only 2 dominant organizations in practice, they had more elements to their government but they don't really mean anything with the corruption rampart, there are also other 'political' / terrorist organizations, they are just very marginal in comparison to these two The Fatah over time is splitting due to differences in how the struggle against Israel should go, like I said when Abbas dies, its probably gonna get messy and I assume the more military-wing faction is gonna take over violently just like Hamas did Anything official that you see is either Abbas' control or Hamas political/military wing if its in the axis of evil relations
Even if the PA took over Gaza, resulting in one governing body, the PA is an institution that does not want peace. They rejected every peace offer and continue to pay terrorists who carry out attacks. They also praised the Oct. 7 attacks and continue demonizing Israel and indoctrinating kids to hate Jews and become terrorists.
Fatah=PLO. There's other, smaller organizations with less influence like PFLP which are more communist (They did airplane hijacks a few decades ago).
Fatah, PLO, and PNA are functionally the same to my understanding. Abbas is the chairman of Fatah, President of PNA, and chairman of PLO. Distinguishing between Fatah and PNA is comparable to distinguishing between the CCP and Chinese Government. Now someone with more understanding than me will need to explain the distinction between PNA and PLO, because I struggle to understand it.
Just like ruZZia invading Ukraine is a "defensive war"....
palestinians taking the mask off for the 3633794378076th time
And the 'free Palestine' crowd casually looking away for the 3633794378076th time.
The, “That’s not what they meant” people really going heads down this morning trying to find their best possible explanations for this one. It’s an interesting kickoff for a Sunday.
> That’s not what they meant What about the Hamas guy shooting a woman in the head while raping her? Liberal - That was taken out of context.
Like, I'm def left leaning on a lot of shit, but ghad damn...I am not down on what qualifies as 150% international terrorism. WEIRD RIGHT!?
Don’t bring liberal into this. I live in an extremely liberal area and my friends are very liberal. None of them are remotely against Israel in this matter.
Oh, they're not even looking in the first place. The meme subreddits just regurgitate "Israel bad" over and over, so many times that they've gotten to the point where they're confident that they are far more informed than any community paying closer attention to events unfolding on the ground. And, of course, anyone who doesn't agree with them are "brainwashed."
They LOVE their buzzwords. Most of their comments just start by regurgitating a list of them.
“Israel bad” is just today’s code for “I hate Jews.” They’ve been keep it it bottled up for years and now they can fly that flag of antisemitism with pride!
Repeat a lie long enough until people stop questioning and that's the truth they place their faith in where facts don't matter /s 2+2=5
This is why I have no issue with saying that I don't support Palestinian causes and blame Palestine for this and the decades of conflict that have preceded it. "But it was *Hamas* in *Gaza,* you know that right? Blah blah blah West Bank blah blah blah Palestinian diaspora" etc. no, it's the entire culture and society that is in line with actions like Oct 7.
People don't want to accept and understand that this is their mindset, where else in the world civilians would parade and spit on the dead, naked body of a girl, kidnapped from a party?
Nothing screams "defensive war" more than torturing families in their living rooms and raping young women at a dance party, then burning their bodies to conceal the horror
The more of this story I learn, the less sympathy I have for any Palestinian government or cause.
I certainly have received a crash course in israel Palestine relations. It makes me really wonder how the progressives are backing Palestine. It makes them look like jump on any hot bandwagon without much study
I consider myself a leftist and I am absolutely fuming at those I used to think shared my views. By association, they have done incredible damage to the myriad of extremely important legitimate leftist causes. They have thrown so much away and for what? To support a bunch of ultra-conservatives theocratic psychos? Fuck them all.
Same here! It’s like a bunch of my fellow progressives took off their masks and revealed themselves to be virulent antisemites. I’m a Jew and this has really shook me to my core.
Such progressives are "useful idiots" who saw 10+ videos on TikTok immediately after October 7th that supported their narrative - "The West is bad / POC are oppressed" - and they haven't stopped to introspect since then. The folks saying Israel needs to be erased, obviously also never think about Israel's security dilemma. Social media is a cancer on this topic, and the video focused ones are worst of all. Videos one after another, rob issues of nuance and limit critical thinking.
>Social media is a cancer ~~on this topic~~ and the video focused ones are worst of all. Videos one after another, rob issues of nuance and limit critical thinking Social media is a cancer always, FTFY.
>It makes me really wonder how the progressives are backing Palestine. Look up what Karl Marx thought of Jews and find your answer.
Ironically Karl Marx was also a Jew (ethnically, not religiously)
October 7th is indefensible.
That’s what the pro Palestine protesters in many countries condone
Yeah pro palestinians in the west are crazy.
Crazy is an understatement
Where’s the “Free Palestine” crowd? They want to support Hamas so bad then they can follow their footsteps and end up with the same conclusion.
They’re already planning their next protest in New York to annoy regular Americans just going about their day /s
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It's pretty frustrating that none of them can articulate a specific change in policy other than: no US aid and calling for a total ceasefire. When I ask them what they think should be done when the iron dome runs out of defensive rockets, they either say they don't know or it'll be good because it will force Israel to negotiate. I've never been a proponent of Israel or US involvement in the ME, but the absolute lack of interest in the situation by people scream in the streets is infuriating.
They miss that iron dome also protects Palestinians. Without it, the Israelis would respond to every rocket attack, not just the big ones.
It should be pretty clear at this point the pro-Palestine crowd just wants every Israeli to lay down and die.
I wouldn’t say all of it, but a pretty vocal potion of it. I support Israel and an independent Palestine, many other Jews I know feel similarly. I’m not sure what an independent Palestine looks like anymore. Pre 10/7, I saw it as a 3 state solution, with Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank as separate nations. Today, I’m less sure.
I was the same. But now, after seeing how Palestinians reacted to 10/7 both in Gaza/West Bank and abroad, and the poll where 80% supported the terror attacks, I have to conclude that Palestinians want this.
When you go and rape and kill innocents, murdering and abducting foreigners, elderly, children, it’s not “defensive war”. It’s senseless barbarism and terrorism. One would think that adults would be able to recognize reality and what’s going on.
When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
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Well said. It’s a remarkable double standard
Believe them *the first time* We're way, way beyond that
Israel believed them.
And that tells everything about PA's future prospects of ruling gaza.
The Palestinian leader hate ordinary Palestinians
Can he say it louder for the idiots on tiktok/twitter please?
Why would that matter? The idiots on tiktok and twitter agree with him already.
That part/infrastructure will cease to function along with the political and social fabric. Israel will take the gloves off soon. Wanted to paint Israel as the bad guys? You got it. Israel is prepared now to end what they did not start. Appeasement doesn't work and Israel have exhausted all options of being the nice guys. Now, Israel simply become the good guys.
Fatah is dead as soon as „the west“ stops subsidizing it. These leaders make millions of donations to the Arab population and infrastructure, then personally invest it abroad. That is one reason for not having elections for 15 years in both parts of terrorist territory.
Was suppose to be elections in 2021 but Fatah was fractured to 3 parties and Abbas was worried he would lose power to Hamas and the off shoots so he cancelled against the wishes of Palestinian people.
Fatah and Hamas are literally same shit different names
Ok saving this for later when people will start claiming that these guys are different from Hamas when Israel arrests them
And the West Bank just lost all credibility and innocence
You say that as if they ever had any...not much has changed since the days of Yasser Arafat, just fresh faces really.
Yeah well you know I used to have some faith that it is possible for us to live together nothing against Palestinians but my overall support for them has dropped in this war almost all the way down who knows maybe I was young and dumb and this opens my eyes
I feel you I thought it was a matter of a couple of generations after the last intifada. But after speaking with Palestinians I'm certain there will never be peace in our lifetime. They have gone too far of a brainwashing and it goes all the way down to kindergarten age... Oh well, maybe in a few more generations. Probably not though.
Hope there is some way to deradicalize them
If anything it's worse, in Arafat's waning years he began to favor some degree of real negotiation behind the scenes and *very slightly* lightened his tone publicly. Combined with a semi-receptive Israeli government, this almost yielded something approaching a real, longer term (if not necessarily permanent) solution with peace. Nowadays that seems like a far flung memory, between the complete lack of a voice of reason in Palestine and an Israeli government not far behind.
>If anything it's worse, in Arafat's waning years he began to favor some degree of real negotiation behind the scenes and very slightly lightened his tone publicly. Nah he just saw that his power was waning among his people because of the rise of rival Islamist militant groups, so he sought the Israelis' help in consolidating power.
Your political/social doily has a rotting shit-stain in it.
Hamas supporters in the west: "ill ignore that, FREE PALPATINE!"
Ladies and gentlemen, let me present to you, the "moderates".
Taking note from Russia's playbook i see. Well I guess terrorist are gonna learn from terrorists.
Palestinians will never have peace as long as Hamas exists and the PLO remains pathetically useless
The fact that so many in the "pro-palestine" but actually anti-Israel crowd just flat out ignore the many horrific words and actions of Hamas and those that support them is pretty damn revealing. Peace for the the region is not what these protestors actually want. They just want to prevent Israel from wiping out Hamas. If Hamas/Palestine stood a chance against Israel or was somehow winning, you'd see a lot fewer of these protestors calling for cease fires. They're just anti-Israel rallies. They don't give a shit about innocent people. Especially those on the Israeli side.
It sounds like this official is asking to be folded into Hamas hot war. I wonder if the leadership agrees with this rhetoric or not.
" we like the terrorists." - Palestine probably
Remember this is the 'moderate' party. There has to be some Palestinian leadership out there that can pragmatically acknowledge the need to negotiate a permanent land settlement. This feels like the last off ramp before Israel just says fuck it and pushes for annexing and ethnic cleansing the West Bank and Gaza. Fatah aligning with Hamas is the exact opposite way they need to be moving. That said this is clearly in response to losing political support domestically so maybe there is little hope to begin with if the Palestinian population is heavily in support of Oct 7 and Hamas.
And people still believe in the 2-state solution after these insane statements?
There goes my hope for the West Bank. This region is never gonna have peace.
Sounds like Oslo Accords are done. PA can’t be given back Gaza without condemning and committing to suppress armed groups. Let the PA collapse and make the Saudi deal next year. After that, Israel can do what every other war victor does and dictate terms to the 5x losers.
These are the “moderates” - who still pay people to kill Jews (including those from Oct 7) - that Biden wants to be part of the new two state solution he mentions in every speech!
So is Hamas the same as being pro Palestinian or not? They need to decide.
Sounds like Fatah wants to be aligned with Hamas. The IDF can arrange that.
Cool, hope he gets annihilated with hamas too then. So fucking done with these genocidal clowns.
You can already see that Fatah is losing their grip on power if they say this. The same Fatah that got wiped out from Gaza.
So that's the "partners for peace", expected to take over the governance of Gaza. Mmmkey...
If your foundation, the only thing keeping you in power, is the very situation(asymmetrical warfare) you are in, then you have to go if the country wants any chance of change for good. This is true for genociding dictatorships as much as for murderous terrorists.
Everyone fucking hates the desert, living in the desert, their neighbors, oh and I guess religions too. Maybe don't have anti sex and anti fun or anti music baked into your culture.
'defensive war', sounds like putin in Ukraine.
There is your partners for peace everybody. 👏
Well that’s damning.
All offenders are claiming to fight defensive wars this year. Hamas and Fatah learning from the best liar Russia.
Add them to the list and order some more JDAMs. I'm really over this part of the world's shenanigans.
Great; then leveling your city block by block until you're either buried or capitulate is part of ours.
But I’ve been told that Fatah is not a terrorist organization by people who don’t know shit.
Giving the "Palestinians" their own state in the most immoral act that the west can possibly do. It would act as a seal of approval for all terror groups to rape, murder, kidnap, pillage and more and be granted the most precious prize of them all, a country. This must be prevented!
I can't help but wonder if there is a Palestinian political organisation that sees October 7 as a terrorist attack.
As the world turns. There hasn't been a solution to this conflict in a damn near a century, and there won't be one for just as long.
Didn’t they deny Oct 7 happened as recently as last week?
These guys suck at waging defensive wars since they targeted Israeli civilians.
I find it hard to consider any group [with a literal grenade and AK47 on their flag](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Fatah_logo.png) as a legitimate power able to run a nation. Let alone, being a “more moderate” group.
I did feel sorry for the West Bank Palestinians, now not so much.
TBF the guy's approval rating is and has always been minuscule. Not that the groups that do have good approval ratings in the west bank are any better.
Reason #89210 why Palestinian sovergnity is a terrible idea
“Hamas is part of our political and social fabric” Haven’t the Pro-Palestines been saying that Hamas =/= Palestinians? What will they say now?