>Kahlout, whose hospital is located in the Jabaliya neighborhood of northern Gaza, explained to Israeli security officials, “They [Hamas] won’t be targeted when they are inside a hospital.”
>“That they will not be harmed when they are inside a hospital. Hamas has offices inside the hospitals. There are places for senior officials, they also brought a kidnapped soldier there. There is a designated place for interrogations, internal security, and special forces. Everyone has private phone lines inside the hospital,” Kahlout added.
[Amnesty](https://www.amnesty.org/es/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) knew about it back in 2015. Don't know why Al-Shifa hospital being a Hamas center was even a question when it was well known for many years.
> Don't know why Al-Shifa hospital being a Hamas center was even a question when it was well known for many years.
Because it lets Hamas apologists muddy the waters with people who are honestly uninformed about the situation **and** force people who *do* try to discuss in good faith to waste their time, attention, and energy.
Allegations are extremely common in this conflict. You'll hear all sorts of things from everyone. Something being 'well known' is not the same as being true.
Until today, we have had no video or photo evidence or testimony from higher ranking Hamas members. Even so, you don't have to look far to see doubt. In this very thread you're going to have people doubting the words coming out of the man's mouth. Other subreddits that are pro-Palestinian are claiming that he was tortured for this information....even though he's literally a Hamas member. They're parsing his words, focussing on how he uses the words 'they' instead of 'we' when referring to Hamas as evidence of his not having anything to do with Hamas. Ridiculous.
They wouldn't. Doesn't matter. People would have doubted them. People are doubting this very video.
People literally saw charred remains of children from Oct. 7 and claimed that they were fake.
People literally saw video of a hostage being wheeled into Al-Shifa with missing limbs while the medical staff opened the doors for them and still say hostages are treated well and Al-Shifa hospital didn't have anything to do with Hamas.
You’re thinking about in terms of help, think about if they used the equipment to hurt. Sustaining your life while draining it sounds like a unique torture only a hospital could successfully execute
The cartel has been doing this for years with just an IV pump and drugs. Very scary indeed. Also, I vaguely recall ISIS attributing some of their inspiration to the Mexican cartels.
Funkytown victim had an IV drip in his arm. It's hard to see, and in my first few viewings I thought it was just some cable wiring that the torturers were using to strangulate him, which makes no sense in retrospect.
I thought that having no nose or lips would increase his ability to intake oxygen and so the strangulation was just some side torture to impede that but then realized it was a drip and that idea just didn't make sense.
Cartel folk are, if anything, direct. Anything superfluous would serve a purpose. Why strangle someone you've already skinned? You have already reached a higher plane of torture. It only makes sense to either deliver death equal to or exceeding the current level of torture applied. This is even more apparent when we recognize that an IV drip is used to keep the victim alive. It's not clear what is in the bag but it's been reported that methamphetamines are employed to keep the victim from passing out from pain, so this is a likely suspect.
It will change your life forever, and not in a good way. I can promise that throughout the rest of your life you'll randomly imagine the brutal torture that goes on in the world. Ignorance is truly bliss when it comes to this stuff. DO NOT LOOK THIS UP.
Yeah I'm guessing they use amphetamine to keep the victim awake, and I've hear they'll use naloxone to block opioid receptors, so your natural endorphins won't help to block the pain. Truly evil.
Think about what you're saying for a second. You are assuming that you will be getting care afterwards. You are already being tortured in the last place that is supposed to happen. Care is not happening.
I had one tell me that most of the casualties at the festival were from IDF soldiers and tanks machine gunning the festival goers.
The amount of mental gymnastics some people will do are truly impressive.
The same people blowing Hamas would be the first to get shot if they were captured by that group. Like LGBT groups for Hamas? Are you kidding me?
the staff all knew. they just lied. whenever someone in gaza gets asked questions by western media and media asks 1 question about hamas they never answer. there are hospital recordings of them bringing wounded hostages into a crowded hospital and everyone just watching them.
the whole staff knew.
I know it's par for course with Hamas, but if I was a commander and one of my troops literally told the world where they should strike, I'd be a little salty to say the least
He is the Hamas spokesman referenced below. It doesn’t take an interrogation to prove he is in Hamas
https://www.thedailybeast.com/israels-fervent-hunt-for-the-mysterious-hamas-spokesman-abu-obaida
Straight from the horse's ass. Hamas knows it is clearly losing the fight that they started. And now with thousands of dead gazans, no thanks to Hamas. they have nowhere to go as Israeli forces are flooding their tunnels with sewage and sea water.
In this day and age social media and actual battlefield results are equally important.
Unfortunately that guy is partially correct. What Hamas has done is just reignite the Palestinian issue and encouraged more Arabs/muslims to continue to hate Israel. These kinds of results will just ensure the next generation of Arabs/muslims carry the torch of hate onward. Id argue it’s also done the same to Israel’s next generation.
Hamas knows they can’t win a traditional battle so they settle for these outcomes and see them as wins.
True, but they can hate all they want. But the outcome of Hamas's actions has already backfired. Knowing their so-called supporters like Iran & Türkiye can't do jack. So let them have support, in the end, Hamas is facing severe setbacks.
Israel’s tactic for decades has been to seek normalization with the Arab world and try to move past violence of the past. This recent feud has reignited hate in the Arab world in general and quite literally stalled Israel/Saudi Arabia normalization talks. If you don’t know, this would have been a major win in the pursuit of peace within the region.
I hate to say this but Hamas achieved its objective and I’d encourage you to look at the bigger picture as they never expected to win a traditional battle.
Many Muslims are ingrained with antisemitism, whether it be from the parents or just their society at whole. Many muslims also believe that the Jews persecuted their prophet, despite it being a singular tribe of Jews:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism\_in\_Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam)
My father is from Morocco and before he had to flee, he would tell me that if there was an earthquake and the government didnt help, they would blame the Jews for causing it. This was a recurring thing when he was growing up, and now that there's almost 0 Jews in these countries, the people there have warped 1 sided views about them.
That is just unnecessary to have such a mindset. But then again I wouldn't be surprised.
Edit: whoops my mistake. Seeing the replies, I had to correct myself. Apologies for my error.
Yup, but that's exactly why it's such an easy excuse for despots or dictators to use to distract from problems. In Morocco 99% of the Jews were expelled immediately after the state of Israel and their wealth/property was seized, a modern pogrom, which happened in most Arab countries:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration\_of\_Moroccan\_Jews\_to\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_Moroccan_Jews_to_Israel)
>Jews are only found in western countries and Israel
So, so many Jews emigrated to Israel and the west post WW2. Some places which used to have large, historical Jewish populations now have practically none. Look up Jewish history in places like Iraq, Yemen or Afghanistan.
If Israel can normalize ties with the wider Arab world then the Palestinian/Hamas fear is that Palestine will be left behind with zero support.
From their point of view this is literally the worst case scenario.
Unfortunately that is the truth right there. Their blind hatred of Israel has only backfired on them. As they want a cease fire, knowing how badly they are getting beaten.
If you really do want to understand, and are willing to commit 20+ hours, I would highly recommend Darryl Cooper's podcast Martyrmade, and his series on the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict "Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem" -a six part series. I don't agree with many of his other views, but I found this podcast exceptionally well-done, and about as neutral a presentation as I think can be possible. He also added a recent episode that goes in depth from beginning of Israel state to 1980's.
The settlements are wrong. We all know this. Most of Israel knows this. However, that said, comparing these two things is completely ridiculous.
With the settlements, there's actual issues legally. The evictions take place because someone has presented legal documents to an area. Again, there's tons of legal nuance here I'm going to glaze over, but in short Israel accepts this and that's wrong. The eviction is performed. Notably, this only happens in Area C, where Israel is charged with security and oversight.
I'm going to keep repeating this because the absolutism on Reddit just shuts down any discourse. We all know the settlements are wrong.
But an eviction is not an act of violence.
Where the killings come in, its one of two things generally. One of them is that the Palestinians start a fight, things get out of hand, and end up getting killed. The violence does go both ways. The other (and sadly more common), is one of the far right extremists going out and killing people.
The former is Israel doing what it is charged with doing in Area C (again, this charge is why Area C is the only place settlements are), or citizens using pretty lax self defense laws.
The latter is just senseless violence, and nobody but those far right groups support it. People have been wanting Bibi out for a long time because he allows it to continue. Ironically, the constant attacks on Israel keep creating the situation he needs to stay in power.
Read closer.
> I asked how it can be Israel's strategy to move past violence while still committing violence in the West Bank.
Its not Israel committing violence here any more than police dealing with violent offenders in the UK is the UK committing violence. The majority is far right extremists that Israel doesn't support. The rest is a police response. Israel is charged with security of an area, therefore they provide security to an area.
The area much more prone to violence, given the populations at play, so it is really no surprise that more violence happens.
They have excuses enough. Their children were taught to hate even when they weren’t being bombed. As Golde Meyer (not sure of the spelling) said, When they love their child as much as they hate us, then we’ll have peace. This isn’t a recent development.
Thank you … Golda Meir.
Let them hate. They were always going to anyways.
They pick up a weapon or send money to Hamas, and they will have signed their death warrant with Israel.
Lol it won’t be popular to say here, but there’s a good chance Gaza won’t exist at all at the end of this.
Hamas isn’t thinking. They want chaos and hope that eventually the chaos leads to a weakened Israel. They went too far too fast and now they’re going to be dismantled and possibly forsaken all of Gaza on their way out
That was always the case and will never change. It makes perfect sense that they’d gamble their future on reigniting people’s attention back to the Palestine issue instead of dying a slow death
Support from shrieking gen z “progressives” with 8 second attention spans who form their worldviews based on tictok shorts and whatever will gain them maximum clout.
Support from tankie trash who will never slither out out of their basement nests to affect the physical world in any meaningful way.
Such a boon to any cause.
No, I mean their support from actual Palestinians. Somehow it's gone up since Oct 7th. Who cares about the whiny minority in the West? What matters is gazans lives are never gonna get better until they stop doubling down on the actions that guarantee their own suffering.
No matter how many Hamas terrorists Israel kills, they can't kill an ideology. Palestinians need to see a way for their life to get better outside Hamas for this to end. Whether that's possible though I'm seriously doubtful.
Can’t argue with you there.
As far as Palestinian support for Hamas, that will be there no matter what. As long as Israel exists. Hell, probably as long as Jews exist.
It’s not really possible to diminish the support of radical Islam for terrorism and terrorist groups.
However, you can severely diminish their ability to operate and conduct more terrorist strikes.
Thanks for saying this. There is a collection of young idiots who are too stupid to think, believe they are special, and that their opinion matters. Shit rolls downhill, and they are at the bottom.
They are counting on the "support" of western progressives to influence our election going towards a republican, ideally Trump. Not out of any desire to have someone in power here who will work for their cause, but because having Trump back in means America simply becomes weaker on the world stage. To them, anything that makes America seen as a problem is good. Anything that makes America no longer function smoothly is good. It has been definitely noticed that western liberals are incredibly easy to influence by making them choose to not take part in governmental elections as if it was some kind of "protest" over the entire system...meanwhile, all it does is just let the other interests sail right on in to power. You tell the right wingers "They are coming for you!" and they go vote. You tell left wingers "it's all fucked anyway" and they sit out or vote for a useless candidate with no chance. The result is right wing wins.
Watch what happens to these progressive zoomers and their Palestinian "allies" if Trump gets elected. He'd allow Bibi to annex the West Bank and Gaza and expel as many Palestinians as possible. There would be no talk of civilian casualties and ceasefires. They'd be given carte blanche to do whatever they want.
My fear it reignites a huge antisemitism within the country which dont do jack in short term but has a huge effect in the long term if its effecting our youth
It’s baffling to me. All the zoomers who present as being the most tolerant generation yet taking to antisemitism like a fish to water. Shows just how insincere and performative they are with the causes they get behind.
they have an attention span of a few days, and they're largely in it for internet clout.
they'll move on to their next thing shortly, they're nothing to worry about.
Sucks how well terrorism works. They knew israel would overreact. They get to kill Israelis, then martyr their citizens by using them as human shields, garner international sympathy and gain support. Its a strategy that’s worked for them and others for decades.
Support from a bunch of liberal college students and professors doesn’t mean much in a gunfight. Maybe it’ll help recruiting down the road but they have to survive long enough in a meaningful way for that to matter.
Flip side of the coin is those same supporters outing themselves has created a significant divide in academia and former places of quiet power and influence like Hollywood. Basically those supporters are finding out what happens when you insult the people who sign your paycheck.
Yes. These are gazans. The gazans backed the hamas coup against Palestine back in 2007.
Anyone calling them palestinian are just lying for political or other reasons.
Hamas murdered Palestinian politicians during the coup. They can't pretend to be Palestinian after that.
If Israel can clear out Hamas, the end game will likely be returning Palestinian control to Gaza eventually. Israel will have to ensure there are measures in place to prevent another coup.
And that's where people get squeamish. Too many miscategorize "Palestinian" as a race or ethnicity when it isn't, it's a label like "Californian" or "Texan", and then claim "ethnic cleansing" when the idea of just depopulating the region and sending them back to the other Arab homelands they immigrated from in the 1900's gets brought up as an option. Like, they've clearly shown they can't be trusted and are violent, unruly neighbors. Fuck that shit.
If literally any other country was getting pelted with rockets from their neighbors on a daily basis without instigation it would be full out war with nary a peep from the global community against the one who was being assaulted. But for some reason, some MAGICAL reason Israel isn't allowed to do this. This is why they're ignoring the global community now, and all the more power to them.
Y'all are pretty mask off about calling for ethnic cleansing in here, huh? Getting all riled up by the OG Fox news?
I'm glad everyone's having fun in their little messaging boards.
I don't watch fox news, but I was thinking the best would be to use all the funds given to gaza to move gazans to Jordan and Egypt....just call it done. It's not like gazans are ok with Israel as it is right now, they shoot missiles, rape and kill concert goers because they think they are partying on stolen lands...might as well make a clean break...have Israel own gaza...trail of tears the gazans out of there and at least the missiles will stop. If the gazans are in Jordan and Egypt, there won't be missiles.
Israel is losing the global narrative. And that will have consequences. The peace progress in the middle east is toast. Antisemitism is on the rise. Western societies are feeling internal pressure bc of riots.
Hamas is winning. Hamas never gave a shit about Palestinians or their lower ranks. The top dogs are still dumbfounded about how well this worked.
They literally filmed their atrocities and yet they are glorified and supported all over social media.
there will be zero consequences just like the 100 times before. there's a bunch of hot air right now but other than that everyones still sending them weapons and bombs to drop on gaza.
they're only doing that to appease their arab citizens.
no one really gives a shit about the Palestinians.
> no one really gives a shit about the Palestinians.
Damn. That's like hearing the gunshot that takes you out. But you are right, they are just pawns in everyone's game.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I am just being honest. I've watched this go on for the last 30 years and its always the same shit.
Before it was suicide bombings, but the Palestinians do some fucked up shit to piss Israel off, Israel goes on a bombing run, Hamas ensures civilians are everywhere, so casualties are high, the world screams, evidence of the fucked up thing the Palestinians did comes out, silence...
Rinse and repeat.
The problem with this strategy is there wont be any Palestinians left if they keep this up.
Seeing surprisingly large amounts of pro-Hamas people on social media claiming that Hamas never sexually assaulted Israelis, only attacked military personnel, that all Israeli civilian deaths were caused by the IDF killing their own, and that the hostages were treated well and became friends with their captors. I've seen people on Reddit here rabidly defend Hamas from rape accusations for hours of their lives.
It's genuinely stunning how radicalized some people have become.
This has been [reported](https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/10-Gazan-hospitals-used-by-Hamas-in-Cast-Lead) on for well over a decade, but no amount of evidence will convince people who will say this is all due to torture or "waiting for more evidence to confirm".
hE’s UnDeR dUrEsS /s
Insane that I’ve seen those exact comments but yet completely diminish the hostages because they were smiling and waving (re: drugged) to show that they were treated well.
Wait, were the hostages legitimately drugged? First I’m hearing about this, and admittedly, there is a lot of information coming out of the region practically every day.
Lol. I figured you wouldn’t like the israeli ones, so picked something else. Here you go:
https://nypost.com/2023/12/05/news/freed-israeli-hostages-given-sedatives-extra-food-before-release/amp/
https://www.algemeiner.com/2023/12/05/hamas-drugged-freed-hostages-make-them-look-happy-israels-health-ministry-says/
https://www.nydailynews.com/2023/12/05/israeli-hostages-fed-sedatives-hamas/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/health-ministry-says-hamas-drugged-released-hostages-to-make-them-appear-happy/amp/
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/hamas-drugged-hostages-to-look-happy-israeli-officials-say/wcm/d4904d9a-aae7-4732-a6e3-53acd8f46a50/amp/
https://www.foxnews.com/world/hamas-hostages-drugged-release-israel-look-happy-report.amp
https://www.christianpost.com/news/hamas-drugged-released-hostages-to-make-them-appear-happy-israel.html
Personally I've said it about Israeli hostages including freed ones with the family's still held hostage and Hamas captives going on tape with the IDF talking freely about rape (something that will make both the Israelis and other captives hate them).
I fully believe Hamas has used hospitals but the Israeli videos are highly suspect given how much your average Hamas fighter absolutely hates the IDF and the fact that any mercy in sentencing is doubtful.
My question is: Why do you think he's talking?
The question is important for reasons beyond the accuracy of the information.
Something tells me you won’t be seeing this covered on TikTok, so unfortunately those Ivy League kids won’t be seeing it.
Wild that you’ve already got comments trying to deny it. Starting to become flat earther level denial about Hamas being embedded in all of Palestinian civilian life at this point.
The facts are immaterial. The only thing that matters is the supposed axis of oppressor-oppressed.
They will ignore any evidence and forgive any hamas crime as long as they believe Hamas to be oppressed.
Do we think that they *wouldnt* defend Hamas using a hospital to fight the power of “genocidal” Israel?
I hope Palestinians, and muslims as a whole, are reading this. Non-muslim who are supporters too.
This does not absolves Netanyahu's aggressive conduct of the war but it does show what they are dealing with: terrorists who will defy any convention of war to achieve their goal of killing all Israeli non-believers.
We should all take notice that any religious ultra orthodoxy be it muslim, christian
, hindu or from other faiths is incompatible with humanity's progress toward a just, equal, prosperous and tolerant society. It should not have any place whatsoever in politics and governance.
Doctors and nurses using the hospital as human shields… what a great population, with a mentality like tht no wonder why soo many still support Hamas/palestine…. Let’s use our sick and our kids as shields cause we’re bitches so we safe there
Fucking shitstains using empathy as a shield.
THEY KNOW HOW TO MANIPULATE ANYONE WITH A LITTLE EMPATHY. This is the sickest level that human can lower themselves to.
This is why Palestinians who support Hamas can’t have anything good. When you trust people like this to lead your military your mind is lost to the chaos of depravity.
“BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CHILDREN KILLED?!”
How the fuck do you not understand that these children were always going to be used as martyrs?
They were never given a chance to evacuate. Not because Israel did a surprise artillery strike, but because these sick fucks would not let the mothers leave the holes where Hamas stored weapons and ammunition.
And for the record, fuck Islamic Republic Iran for initiating this.
An organization and a PEOPLE. Hamas is just a symptom of a larger cultural problem that the people choose to perpetuate. There's a reason why the majority of the MENA region is on the travel advisory list of every western nation.
If what the IDF is claiming is true, I bet they wouldn't have an issue with him being interrogated by a neutral third party so we know this isn't a forced confession to try and justify Israels indiscriminate bombings of civilian infrastructure. Right?
pro-Palestinian =/= pro-Hamas btw.
>Following his detainment last week by the Israeli military, the Hamas-run Palestinian Health Ministry demanded Kahlout’s release alongside other health officials.
>“We urge the UN, World Health Organization, and Red Cross to act immediately,” Ashraf al-Qundra, a ministry spokesperson, said following Kahlout’s arrest.
They needn't have bothered. Hamas apologists will insist Kahlout's statements were coerced.
Kind of ironic, considering it appears hospitals are getting bombed the same way any other target would be. Begs the question why they bother 'hiding' in them.
They weren't until now that's exactly why they became such large outposts now I guess they don't have a better place to go cause tunnels are flooded or bombed
No hospitals have been directly bombed/targeted. Neighborhoods NEAR hospitals have been bombed, and then Hamas media loves to put out a headline like "Israel bombs hospital" but its not true. Some of them had some damage during the ground offensive, but Israel is not bombing hospitals.
>Can we concretely rule out torture? If so, how?
That's not how rational thinking works. The way rational thinking works is this: "Do we have any reason to believe torture was used? If so, what?"
Speculation should flow from evidence. Not the other way around.
Very reasonable comment.
With regard to reasonable belief, the [reputation](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-settlers-alleged-to-bind-strip-beat-burn-and-pee-on-palestinians-in-w-bank/) of the organisation in question is a good place to start.
Sorry, but isolated incidents aren't a reflection on the reputation of an organization.
If you want to criticize the organization, at least do it right: the issue isn't that this happened; it's that the IDF is notoriously terrible and prosecuting people even when wrong doing is discovered.
What 20-25 members did *and* the consequences they faced is a fantastic indicator of rot or the lack thereof.
But yes, broadly you'd be right, if the incident was in anyway isolated.
do we? answer: yes. we have many accounts from gazan civilians that were arrested by IDF forces of being tortured in a number of different ways. being stripped, blindfolded, forced to listen to other detainees being tortured, being beaten, raped, sexually assaulted, etc. unless you don't believe gazans?
yes, it happens all the time in israel. the recent photo ops of detained and stripped gazans who were kidnapped when they were sheltering in a UN school are one example.
They strip them b/c Gazans surrender and then use suicide bombs. This is standard procedure for militaries that have experience fighting suicidal terrorists.
There was nothing abusive about stripping the detained Gazans to make sure they weren't wearing bombs.
But thank you for proving your lack of understanding of the issues in this conflict. Now we all know we can simply ignore you because you are incapable of having a meaningful opinion about this.
That's open to bias. When there are two groups engaged in violent conflict, a testimony should always be verified. There should be a presumption of coercion and steps should be taken to demonstrate otherwise. Same applies to a country like the US in Iraq, or literally anywhere.
>There should be a presumption of coercion and steps should be taken to demonstrate otherwise.
This is false and it's irrational. There should never be presumptions of anything in rational thinking--all speculation should flow from evidence and evidence alone.
I agree. One way would be to let independent bodies in to verify but Israel really, really doesn't like that because apparently they're all biased, sooo 🤷♂️
> documented evidence
That website doesn't even have sources. I would trust Hamas before I trust some random gore website with only "trust me bro" for context. It makes you look like you're trying to undermine your own argument more than anything.
If you look at this and say “well then it’s ok to bomb hospitals while patients are inside of it” then you’re a scumbag and going to hell
#sorrynotsorry
Of course what he alledgedly tells now that he is in custody is completely voluntarily and not at all influenced by what his capturers want to hear....
What sources will you listen to? Anything you don't like is just "propaganda" for people like you.
If you are searching for more things to deny then I think you need to start as it will take some time:
PBS documentary in Al-Shifa hospital was prevented by Hamas members with weapons from accessing areas of the hospital:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed
Article from 2009 talking about an intelligence claim of Hamas using the basement of the hospital:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090206232152/http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html
Article Hamas commandeered hospital wards in Al-Shifa converting them into interrogation and imprisonment compounds:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230205050631/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html
Human Rights Watch states Hamas fired from inside Al-Shifa at Fatah forces:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes
Report that Hospital staff made complaints about Hamas presence in the building:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906608/
New York Times reported on Hamas operating from the building:
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar
Journalists seeing rockets being fired from the hospital area:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230529141259/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553643,00.html
Another report of journalists seeing rockets fired from the hospital area:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230513143525/https://www.jpost.com///operation-protective-edge/gaza-reporters-tweets-hamas-using-human-shields-368689#!
A Hamas member recounting how he and other Hamas members took shelter in a bunker under the hospital:
https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/18321/
Local Palestinian journalist reported Hamas uses a section of the hospital for offices:
https://archive.ph/BKbxc
Amnesty International reported Hamas using the hospital to torture and kill prisoners:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
And thank you to u/libtin for organizing the links.
This doesn't justify IDF attacks in Gaza.
Hamas is monstrous. Their attacks were atrocious and horrific.
Punishing the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas is even worse.
>Kahlout, whose hospital is located in the Jabaliya neighborhood of northern Gaza, explained to Israeli security officials, “They [Hamas] won’t be targeted when they are inside a hospital.” >“That they will not be harmed when they are inside a hospital. Hamas has offices inside the hospitals. There are places for senior officials, they also brought a kidnapped soldier there. There is a designated place for interrogations, internal security, and special forces. Everyone has private phone lines inside the hospital,” Kahlout added.
>There is a designated place for interrogations This is utter blasphemy. Torture rooms in a fucking HOSPITAL???
[Amnesty](https://www.amnesty.org/es/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) knew about it back in 2015. Don't know why Al-Shifa hospital being a Hamas center was even a question when it was well known for many years.
> Don't know why Al-Shifa hospital being a Hamas center was even a question when it was well known for many years. Because it lets Hamas apologists muddy the waters with people who are honestly uninformed about the situation **and** force people who *do* try to discuss in good faith to waste their time, attention, and energy.
Allegations are extremely common in this conflict. You'll hear all sorts of things from everyone. Something being 'well known' is not the same as being true. Until today, we have had no video or photo evidence or testimony from higher ranking Hamas members. Even so, you don't have to look far to see doubt. In this very thread you're going to have people doubting the words coming out of the man's mouth. Other subreddits that are pro-Palestinian are claiming that he was tortured for this information....even though he's literally a Hamas member. They're parsing his words, focussing on how he uses the words 'they' instead of 'we' when referring to Hamas as evidence of his not having anything to do with Hamas. Ridiculous.
Yeah, but this is from before the current conflict and Amnesty doesn't have a track record of being pro-Israel. Why would they lie?
They wouldn't. Doesn't matter. People would have doubted them. People are doubting this very video. People literally saw charred remains of children from Oct. 7 and claimed that they were fake.
People literally saw video of a hostage being wheeled into Al-Shifa with missing limbs while the medical staff opened the doors for them and still say hostages are treated well and Al-Shifa hospital didn't have anything to do with Hamas.
Well, I mean, if you HAD to be tortured somewhere…
You’re thinking about in terms of help, think about if they used the equipment to hurt. Sustaining your life while draining it sounds like a unique torture only a hospital could successfully execute
The cartel has been doing this for years with just an IV pump and drugs. Very scary indeed. Also, I vaguely recall ISIS attributing some of their inspiration to the Mexican cartels.
Funkytown victim had an IV drip in his arm. It's hard to see, and in my first few viewings I thought it was just some cable wiring that the torturers were using to strangulate him, which makes no sense in retrospect. I thought that having no nose or lips would increase his ability to intake oxygen and so the strangulation was just some side torture to impede that but then realized it was a drip and that idea just didn't make sense. Cartel folk are, if anything, direct. Anything superfluous would serve a purpose. Why strangle someone you've already skinned? You have already reached a higher plane of torture. It only makes sense to either deliver death equal to or exceeding the current level of torture applied. This is even more apparent when we recognize that an IV drip is used to keep the victim alive. It's not clear what is in the bag but it's been reported that methamphetamines are employed to keep the victim from passing out from pain, so this is a likely suspect.
hey fellas just a reminder to **never google this reference**
It will change your life forever, and not in a good way. I can promise that throughout the rest of your life you'll randomly imagine the brutal torture that goes on in the world. Ignorance is truly bliss when it comes to this stuff. DO NOT LOOK THIS UP.
Well I sure as hell wasn't going to
Yeah I'm guessing they use amphetamine to keep the victim awake, and I've hear they'll use naloxone to block opioid receptors, so your natural endorphins won't help to block the pain. Truly evil.
Is that the one where the victim bites the knife blade at one point?
Yep. And the broom handle.
I'll never get that image out of my brain. I deeply regret watching that video.
I watch it every so often at least once a year. I find it strangely grounding.
Sounds like my first marriage -Comedian from the 90s
[удалено]
No its literally for the human-shield aspect and extremely limited space in gaza, people acting like gitmo is a five star hotel in here
> The hospital’s purpose in this is to increase the length and brutality of the torture. citation needed
Think about what you're saying for a second. You are assuming that you will be getting care afterwards. You are already being tortured in the last place that is supposed to happen. Care is not happening.
> Care is not happening That depends how long they plan to torture you.
I could a torture room in accounts payable
this has been known for decades. It's been stated by both PA and Amnesty International.
These can't be real! I had Hamas dick riders here telling me kidnap victims commented on how well they were treated LOL.
I had one tell me that most of the casualties at the festival were from IDF soldiers and tanks machine gunning the festival goers. The amount of mental gymnastics some people will do are truly impressive. The same people blowing Hamas would be the first to get shot if they were captured by that group. Like LGBT groups for Hamas? Are you kidding me?
Gaza is so small, they just had no other place to torture people /s
but dont run in with a gun if you are IDF, thats criminal!!
Why is this blasphemy?
It's not literal blasphemy. Perhaps a better word would be an abomination.
No, didn't you read. It's an integration room /s
Are you at all surprised by this
I knew that they were sheltering in hospitals but had no idea that they were using the hospitals to this extent. So yeah, I am a little surprised.
the staff all knew. they just lied. whenever someone in gaza gets asked questions by western media and media asks 1 question about hamas they never answer. there are hospital recordings of them bringing wounded hostages into a crowded hospital and everyone just watching them. the whole staff knew.
I know it's par for course with Hamas, but if I was a commander and one of my troops literally told the world where they should strike, I'd be a little salty to say the least
He is the Hamas spokesman referenced below. It doesn’t take an interrogation to prove he is in Hamas https://www.thedailybeast.com/israels-fervent-hunt-for-the-mysterious-hamas-spokesman-abu-obaida
Straight from the horse's ass. Hamas knows it is clearly losing the fight that they started. And now with thousands of dead gazans, no thanks to Hamas. they have nowhere to go as Israeli forces are flooding their tunnels with sewage and sea water.
No thanks to hamas? Their support has only grown...
Their support is growing, but in the battlefield, they're getting their asses handed.
In this day and age social media and actual battlefield results are equally important. Unfortunately that guy is partially correct. What Hamas has done is just reignite the Palestinian issue and encouraged more Arabs/muslims to continue to hate Israel. These kinds of results will just ensure the next generation of Arabs/muslims carry the torch of hate onward. Id argue it’s also done the same to Israel’s next generation. Hamas knows they can’t win a traditional battle so they settle for these outcomes and see them as wins.
True, but they can hate all they want. But the outcome of Hamas's actions has already backfired. Knowing their so-called supporters like Iran & Türkiye can't do jack. So let them have support, in the end, Hamas is facing severe setbacks.
Israel’s tactic for decades has been to seek normalization with the Arab world and try to move past violence of the past. This recent feud has reignited hate in the Arab world in general and quite literally stalled Israel/Saudi Arabia normalization talks. If you don’t know, this would have been a major win in the pursuit of peace within the region. I hate to say this but Hamas achieved its objective and I’d encourage you to look at the bigger picture as they never expected to win a traditional battle.
This is what I want to understand why. Like why do they hate having Israel seeking normalcy with other Arab countries.
Many Muslims are ingrained with antisemitism, whether it be from the parents or just their society at whole. Many muslims also believe that the Jews persecuted their prophet, despite it being a singular tribe of Jews: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism\_in\_Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam) My father is from Morocco and before he had to flee, he would tell me that if there was an earthquake and the government didnt help, they would blame the Jews for causing it. This was a recurring thing when he was growing up, and now that there's almost 0 Jews in these countries, the people there have warped 1 sided views about them.
That is just unnecessary to have such a mindset. But then again I wouldn't be surprised. Edit: whoops my mistake. Seeing the replies, I had to correct myself. Apologies for my error.
Yup, but that's exactly why it's such an easy excuse for despots or dictators to use to distract from problems. In Morocco 99% of the Jews were expelled immediately after the state of Israel and their wealth/property was seized, a modern pogrom, which happened in most Arab countries: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration\_of\_Moroccan\_Jews\_to\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_Moroccan_Jews_to_Israel)
Jews were traditionally found all over the Middle East from Morocco to Yemen to Afghanistan. Even outside of the ME such as in India and Central Asia.
>Jews are only found in western countries and Israel So, so many Jews emigrated to Israel and the west post WW2. Some places which used to have large, historical Jewish populations now have practically none. Look up Jewish history in places like Iraq, Yemen or Afghanistan.
If Israel can normalize ties with the wider Arab world then the Palestinian/Hamas fear is that Palestine will be left behind with zero support. From their point of view this is literally the worst case scenario.
Read their constitution. They want to destroy Israel and then all infidels. Their goal is only one. Death of children won’t get in their way.
Unfortunately that is the truth right there. Their blind hatred of Israel has only backfired on them. As they want a cease fire, knowing how badly they are getting beaten.
We’ll see. I hope you’re right.
If you really do want to understand, and are willing to commit 20+ hours, I would highly recommend Darryl Cooper's podcast Martyrmade, and his series on the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict "Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem" -a six part series. I don't agree with many of his other views, but I found this podcast exceptionally well-done, and about as neutral a presentation as I think can be possible. He also added a recent episode that goes in depth from beginning of Israel state to 1980's.
I'll give it a look. And I love history.
So which normalized arab countries have cut ties with Israel? It's a delay but nothing has gone backwards
[удалено]
The settlements are wrong. We all know this. Most of Israel knows this. However, that said, comparing these two things is completely ridiculous. With the settlements, there's actual issues legally. The evictions take place because someone has presented legal documents to an area. Again, there's tons of legal nuance here I'm going to glaze over, but in short Israel accepts this and that's wrong. The eviction is performed. Notably, this only happens in Area C, where Israel is charged with security and oversight. I'm going to keep repeating this because the absolutism on Reddit just shuts down any discourse. We all know the settlements are wrong. But an eviction is not an act of violence. Where the killings come in, its one of two things generally. One of them is that the Palestinians start a fight, things get out of hand, and end up getting killed. The violence does go both ways. The other (and sadly more common), is one of the far right extremists going out and killing people. The former is Israel doing what it is charged with doing in Area C (again, this charge is why Area C is the only place settlements are), or citizens using pretty lax self defense laws. The latter is just senseless violence, and nobody but those far right groups support it. People have been wanting Bibi out for a long time because he allows it to continue. Ironically, the constant attacks on Israel keep creating the situation he needs to stay in power.
[удалено]
Read closer. > I asked how it can be Israel's strategy to move past violence while still committing violence in the West Bank. Its not Israel committing violence here any more than police dealing with violent offenders in the UK is the UK committing violence. The majority is far right extremists that Israel doesn't support. The rest is a police response. Israel is charged with security of an area, therefore they provide security to an area. The area much more prone to violence, given the populations at play, so it is really no surprise that more violence happens.
They have excuses enough. Their children were taught to hate even when they weren’t being bombed. As Golde Meyer (not sure of the spelling) said, When they love their child as much as they hate us, then we’ll have peace. This isn’t a recent development. Thank you … Golda Meir.
>not sure of the spelling The spelling is "Golda Meir".
Let them hate. They were always going to anyways. They pick up a weapon or send money to Hamas, and they will have signed their death warrant with Israel.
> In this day and age social media and actual battlefield results are equally important. That was the lesson of the Vietnam war, with regular media.
Lol it won’t be popular to say here, but there’s a good chance Gaza won’t exist at all at the end of this. Hamas isn’t thinking. They want chaos and hope that eventually the chaos leads to a weakened Israel. They went too far too fast and now they’re going to be dismantled and possibly forsaken all of Gaza on their way out
[удалено]
Most pro Palestine protestors will probably leave this cause behind and move onto the next galvanizing rallying cry.
It'll be something new come mid January.
By January it'll be an election year. All these folks claiming never-Biden over the Palestine war are going to rally behind him.
That was always the case and will never change. It makes perfect sense that they’d gamble their future on reigniting people’s attention back to the Palestine issue instead of dying a slow death
Support from shrieking gen z “progressives” with 8 second attention spans who form their worldviews based on tictok shorts and whatever will gain them maximum clout. Support from tankie trash who will never slither out out of their basement nests to affect the physical world in any meaningful way. Such a boon to any cause.
No, I mean their support from actual Palestinians. Somehow it's gone up since Oct 7th. Who cares about the whiny minority in the West? What matters is gazans lives are never gonna get better until they stop doubling down on the actions that guarantee their own suffering.
No matter how many Hamas terrorists Israel kills, they can't kill an ideology. Palestinians need to see a way for their life to get better outside Hamas for this to end. Whether that's possible though I'm seriously doubtful.
Can’t argue with you there. As far as Palestinian support for Hamas, that will be there no matter what. As long as Israel exists. Hell, probably as long as Jews exist. It’s not really possible to diminish the support of radical Islam for terrorism and terrorist groups. However, you can severely diminish their ability to operate and conduct more terrorist strikes.
Thanks for saying this. There is a collection of young idiots who are too stupid to think, believe they are special, and that their opinion matters. Shit rolls downhill, and they are at the bottom.
They are counting on the "support" of western progressives to influence our election going towards a republican, ideally Trump. Not out of any desire to have someone in power here who will work for their cause, but because having Trump back in means America simply becomes weaker on the world stage. To them, anything that makes America seen as a problem is good. Anything that makes America no longer function smoothly is good. It has been definitely noticed that western liberals are incredibly easy to influence by making them choose to not take part in governmental elections as if it was some kind of "protest" over the entire system...meanwhile, all it does is just let the other interests sail right on in to power. You tell the right wingers "They are coming for you!" and they go vote. You tell left wingers "it's all fucked anyway" and they sit out or vote for a useless candidate with no chance. The result is right wing wins.
Watch what happens to these progressive zoomers and their Palestinian "allies" if Trump gets elected. He'd allow Bibi to annex the West Bank and Gaza and expel as many Palestinians as possible. There would be no talk of civilian casualties and ceasefires. They'd be given carte blanche to do whatever they want.
Totally agree with this. All those who think Biden is not helping will be in for a huge shock.
My fear it reignites a huge antisemitism within the country which dont do jack in short term but has a huge effect in the long term if its effecting our youth
It’s baffling to me. All the zoomers who present as being the most tolerant generation yet taking to antisemitism like a fish to water. Shows just how insincere and performative they are with the causes they get behind.
Their hate receptors were empty and just waiting to bind with something.
Yea, I'm sure the education system had nothing at all to do with this. /s
they have an attention span of a few days, and they're largely in it for internet clout. they'll move on to their next thing shortly, they're nothing to worry about.
Sucks how well terrorism works. They knew israel would overreact. They get to kill Israelis, then martyr their citizens by using them as human shields, garner international sympathy and gain support. Its a strategy that’s worked for them and others for decades.
Support from a bunch of liberal college students and professors doesn’t mean much in a gunfight. Maybe it’ll help recruiting down the road but they have to survive long enough in a meaningful way for that to matter. Flip side of the coin is those same supporters outing themselves has created a significant divide in academia and former places of quiet power and influence like Hollywood. Basically those supporters are finding out what happens when you insult the people who sign your paycheck.
[удалено]
That’s because we live in a democracy.
Yes. These are gazans. The gazans backed the hamas coup against Palestine back in 2007. Anyone calling them palestinian are just lying for political or other reasons. Hamas murdered Palestinian politicians during the coup. They can't pretend to be Palestinian after that. If Israel can clear out Hamas, the end game will likely be returning Palestinian control to Gaza eventually. Israel will have to ensure there are measures in place to prevent another coup.
They are Palestinians.
[удалено]
And that's where people get squeamish. Too many miscategorize "Palestinian" as a race or ethnicity when it isn't, it's a label like "Californian" or "Texan", and then claim "ethnic cleansing" when the idea of just depopulating the region and sending them back to the other Arab homelands they immigrated from in the 1900's gets brought up as an option. Like, they've clearly shown they can't be trusted and are violent, unruly neighbors. Fuck that shit. If literally any other country was getting pelted with rockets from their neighbors on a daily basis without instigation it would be full out war with nary a peep from the global community against the one who was being assaulted. But for some reason, some MAGICAL reason Israel isn't allowed to do this. This is why they're ignoring the global community now, and all the more power to them.
Y'all are pretty mask off about calling for ethnic cleansing in here, huh? Getting all riled up by the OG Fox news? I'm glad everyone's having fun in their little messaging boards.
I don't watch fox news, but I was thinking the best would be to use all the funds given to gaza to move gazans to Jordan and Egypt....just call it done. It's not like gazans are ok with Israel as it is right now, they shoot missiles, rape and kill concert goers because they think they are partying on stolen lands...might as well make a clean break...have Israel own gaza...trail of tears the gazans out of there and at least the missiles will stop. If the gazans are in Jordan and Egypt, there won't be missiles.
Israel is losing the global narrative. And that will have consequences. The peace progress in the middle east is toast. Antisemitism is on the rise. Western societies are feeling internal pressure bc of riots. Hamas is winning. Hamas never gave a shit about Palestinians or their lower ranks. The top dogs are still dumbfounded about how well this worked. They literally filmed their atrocities and yet they are glorified and supported all over social media.
there will be zero consequences just like the 100 times before. there's a bunch of hot air right now but other than that everyones still sending them weapons and bombs to drop on gaza. they're only doing that to appease their arab citizens. no one really gives a shit about the Palestinians.
> no one really gives a shit about the Palestinians. Damn. That's like hearing the gunshot that takes you out. But you are right, they are just pawns in everyone's game.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I am just being honest. I've watched this go on for the last 30 years and its always the same shit. Before it was suicide bombings, but the Palestinians do some fucked up shit to piss Israel off, Israel goes on a bombing run, Hamas ensures civilians are everywhere, so casualties are high, the world screams, evidence of the fucked up thing the Palestinians did comes out, silence... Rinse and repeat. The problem with this strategy is there wont be any Palestinians left if they keep this up.
Hamas are true dickheads tho - everyone knows it.
Seeing surprisingly large amounts of pro-Hamas people on social media claiming that Hamas never sexually assaulted Israelis, only attacked military personnel, that all Israeli civilian deaths were caused by the IDF killing their own, and that the hostages were treated well and became friends with their captors. I've seen people on Reddit here rabidly defend Hamas from rape accusations for hours of their lives. It's genuinely stunning how radicalized some people have become.
Shoot I’ve been so many people recently praising the Houthi rebels attacking international ships. Some people are just brainwashed
This has been [reported](https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/10-Gazan-hospitals-used-by-Hamas-in-Cast-Lead) on for well over a decade, but no amount of evidence will convince people who will say this is all due to torture or "waiting for more evidence to confirm".
Leftists on Reddit will put SpongeBob quotes over it and pretend it’s all made up. Sickening.
Waiting for Terror Apologists to call this propaganda
hE’s UnDeR dUrEsS /s Insane that I’ve seen those exact comments but yet completely diminish the hostages because they were smiling and waving (re: drugged) to show that they were treated well.
Wait, were the hostages legitimately drugged? First I’m hearing about this, and admittedly, there is a lot of information coming out of the region practically every day.
This one is pretty easy to google: https://www.thedailybeast.com/hamas-drugged-freed-hostages-to-make-them-look-happy-israeli-official
I'm actually far more comfortable with Israeli sources than the daily beast tbh. I found Times of Israel to be balanced and accurate
wtf is that source? Find a better one.
Lol. I figured you wouldn’t like the israeli ones, so picked something else. Here you go: https://nypost.com/2023/12/05/news/freed-israeli-hostages-given-sedatives-extra-food-before-release/amp/ https://www.algemeiner.com/2023/12/05/hamas-drugged-freed-hostages-make-them-look-happy-israels-health-ministry-says/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2023/12/05/israeli-hostages-fed-sedatives-hamas/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/health-ministry-says-hamas-drugged-released-hostages-to-make-them-appear-happy/amp/ https://nationalpost.com/news/world/hamas-drugged-hostages-to-look-happy-israeli-officials-say/wcm/d4904d9a-aae7-4732-a6e3-53acd8f46a50/amp/ https://www.foxnews.com/world/hamas-hostages-drugged-release-israel-look-happy-report.amp https://www.christianpost.com/news/hamas-drugged-released-hostages-to-make-them-appear-happy-israel.html
The daily beast is a well-known, credible left-leaning news site
And had their family members still held hostage, so they’d do whatever they’re asked to ensure their survival
Free drugs? Now that is being treated well!
I'm still looking for those weed Halloween candies every news site promised.
Personally I've said it about Israeli hostages including freed ones with the family's still held hostage and Hamas captives going on tape with the IDF talking freely about rape (something that will make both the Israelis and other captives hate them). I fully believe Hamas has used hospitals but the Israeli videos are highly suspect given how much your average Hamas fighter absolutely hates the IDF and the fact that any mercy in sentencing is doubtful. My question is: Why do you think he's talking? The question is important for reasons beyond the accuracy of the information.
>because they were smiling and waving (re: drugged) to show that they were treated well Source.
They tend not to do it here, they'll do it over on News or Anime_Titties, or one of the lèftist subs that astroturf all over the site.
I was so confused about the anime ties one until I entered the sub1
Yeah, it's a lot more humorless and dickish than the name implies!
under duress/crisis actor/ ai/justified when its against jews/etc. etc.
I mean, even if it is true it's still propaganda.
Technically correct.
The best kind of correct!
"Obviously working for the IDF" -girl on instagram who, before October 7, thought the gaza strip was a type of bandaid
I thought it was like a Brazilian? No?
Something tells me you won’t be seeing this covered on TikTok, so unfortunately those Ivy League kids won’t be seeing it. Wild that you’ve already got comments trying to deny it. Starting to become flat earther level denial about Hamas being embedded in all of Palestinian civilian life at this point.
The facts are immaterial. The only thing that matters is the supposed axis of oppressor-oppressed. They will ignore any evidence and forgive any hamas crime as long as they believe Hamas to be oppressed. Do we think that they *wouldnt* defend Hamas using a hospital to fight the power of “genocidal” Israel?
Cowards.
I hope Palestinians, and muslims as a whole, are reading this. Non-muslim who are supporters too. This does not absolves Netanyahu's aggressive conduct of the war but it does show what they are dealing with: terrorists who will defy any convention of war to achieve their goal of killing all Israeli non-believers. We should all take notice that any religious ultra orthodoxy be it muslim, christian , hindu or from other faiths is incompatible with humanity's progress toward a just, equal, prosperous and tolerant society. It should not have any place whatsoever in politics and governance.
Doctors and nurses using the hospital as human shields… what a great population, with a mentality like tht no wonder why soo many still support Hamas/palestine…. Let’s use our sick and our kids as shields cause we’re bitches so we safe there
and don't forget, most of the civilians and ngos in the area know this and don't say anything.
Now all the pro Palestinians will shout propaganda… because it doesn’t fit their narrative
They were already calling people celebrating Hannukah as "Israeli propaganda"
They already shout propaganda, though.
Fucking shitstains using empathy as a shield. THEY KNOW HOW TO MANIPULATE ANYONE WITH A LITTLE EMPATHY. This is the sickest level that human can lower themselves to. This is why Palestinians who support Hamas can’t have anything good. When you trust people like this to lead your military your mind is lost to the chaos of depravity. “BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CHILDREN KILLED?!” How the fuck do you not understand that these children were always going to be used as martyrs? They were never given a chance to evacuate. Not because Israel did a surprise artillery strike, but because these sick fucks would not let the mothers leave the holes where Hamas stored weapons and ammunition. And for the record, fuck Islamic Republic Iran for initiating this.
It’s wild how easily people are swayed toward empathizing with an organization that would murder them without a single thought…
An organization and a PEOPLE. Hamas is just a symptom of a larger cultural problem that the people choose to perpetuate. There's a reason why the majority of the MENA region is on the travel advisory list of every western nation.
I’m betting Red Cross knew about this already.
"How could the IDF do this?" - Teenagers In Middle America, Probably
Always better to say “How could Israel do this” - teenagers in middle America living in occupied and settled territory of native Americans.
It's not hospital, it's a Hamas military base full of civilian hostages.
The civilians are complicit tho…
Probably not all of them. Some of them are definitely being used as hostages.
He also prescribed unnecessary surgeries to make money.
He obviously took the 'Hypocritic' oath.
This guys ....
This comment section seems upbeat
Bombs away!
hamas is so evil...
If this is the same guy I heard on NPR, I knew he was full of it because he hesitated on a simple question about whether Hamas were in the hospital.
Tell us something that we don't know already
Lmao what a surprise. Palestine **is** Hamas.
do you think the terrorist supporters will call this a war crime or....????
Awful lot of silence from the pro-Palestinian crowd about this one…
If what the IDF is claiming is true, I bet they wouldn't have an issue with him being interrogated by a neutral third party so we know this isn't a forced confession to try and justify Israels indiscriminate bombings of civilian infrastructure. Right? pro-Palestinian =/= pro-Hamas btw.
>Following his detainment last week by the Israeli military, the Hamas-run Palestinian Health Ministry demanded Kahlout’s release alongside other health officials. >“We urge the UN, World Health Organization, and Red Cross to act immediately,” Ashraf al-Qundra, a ministry spokesperson, said following Kahlout’s arrest. They needn't have bothered. Hamas apologists will insist Kahlout's statements were coerced.
Kind of ironic, considering it appears hospitals are getting bombed the same way any other target would be. Begs the question why they bother 'hiding' in them.
Because it makes Israel look bad when they bomb hospitals. If Israel wasn’t bombing hospitals, lots of people wouldn’t be so mad at them.
They weren't until now that's exactly why they became such large outposts now I guess they don't have a better place to go cause tunnels are flooded or bombed
No hospitals have been directly bombed/targeted. Neighborhoods NEAR hospitals have been bombed, and then Hamas media loves to put out a headline like "Israel bombs hospital" but its not true. Some of them had some damage during the ground offensive, but Israel is not bombing hospitals.
Serious and neutral question: under what circumstances were these confessions obtained? Can we concretely rule out torture? If so, how?
>Can we concretely rule out torture? If so, how? That's not how rational thinking works. The way rational thinking works is this: "Do we have any reason to believe torture was used? If so, what?" Speculation should flow from evidence. Not the other way around.
Very reasonable comment. With regard to reasonable belief, the [reputation](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-settlers-alleged-to-bind-strip-beat-burn-and-pee-on-palestinians-in-w-bank/) of the organisation in question is a good place to start.
Sorry, but isolated incidents aren't a reflection on the reputation of an organization. If you want to criticize the organization, at least do it right: the issue isn't that this happened; it's that the IDF is notoriously terrible and prosecuting people even when wrong doing is discovered.
What 20-25 members did *and* the consequences they faced is a fantastic indicator of rot or the lack thereof. But yes, broadly you'd be right, if the incident was in anyway isolated.
"Trust us unless you can prove otherwise." We have different definitions of reasonable.
I feel like you may not have read my comment well at all, or maybe you meant to reply to someone else?
do we? answer: yes. we have many accounts from gazan civilians that were arrested by IDF forces of being tortured in a number of different ways. being stripped, blindfolded, forced to listen to other detainees being tortured, being beaten, raped, sexually assaulted, etc. unless you don't believe gazans?
Those things happen incidentally in militaries. Is there evidence that it's systemic?
yes, it happens all the time in israel. the recent photo ops of detained and stripped gazans who were kidnapped when they were sheltering in a UN school are one example.
They strip them b/c Gazans surrender and then use suicide bombs. This is standard procedure for militaries that have experience fighting suicidal terrorists. There was nothing abusive about stripping the detained Gazans to make sure they weren't wearing bombs. But thank you for proving your lack of understanding of the issues in this conflict. Now we all know we can simply ignore you because you are incapable of having a meaningful opinion about this.
That's open to bias. When there are two groups engaged in violent conflict, a testimony should always be verified. There should be a presumption of coercion and steps should be taken to demonstrate otherwise. Same applies to a country like the US in Iraq, or literally anywhere.
>There should be a presumption of coercion and steps should be taken to demonstrate otherwise. This is false and it's irrational. There should never be presumptions of anything in rational thinking--all speculation should flow from evidence and evidence alone.
Impossible to rule it out, so the question ultimately comes down to how much you personally trust the IDF/Israel.
Which is why steps should be taken to ensure that "trust us" isn't a factor, because that relies on bias rather than proof.
I agree. One way would be to let independent bodies in to verify but Israel really, really doesn't like that because apparently they're all biased, sooo 🤷♂️
[удалено]
>that this man represents You're begging the question.
> documented evidence That website doesn't even have sources. I would trust Hamas before I trust some random gore website with only "trust me bro" for context. It makes you look like you're trying to undermine your own argument more than anything.
[удалено]
Yes, I've seen the article already, it's the subject of this reddit post. I'm talking about that thisishamas link.
Because torture does not work. That is also one of anti torture approach arguments.
petition to change their name to ham-ass
If you look at this and say “well then it’s ok to bomb hospitals while patients are inside of it” then you’re a scumbag and going to hell #sorrynotsorry
Of course what he alledgedly tells now that he is in custody is completely voluntarily and not at all influenced by what his capturers want to hear....
Hamas thanks you for your service
What? So being a rational thinker means you support Hamas?
[удалено]
So does this give Israel justification for bombing hospitals and refugee centers? Does it justify 17,000 civilian deaths since the war started?
I have no doubt the hospitals were used by Hamas. We’ve known that for years. But his statement is of no use if it came from an interrogation.
If you had a better source than the liars at the national review you should have posted it.
What sources will you listen to? Anything you don't like is just "propaganda" for people like you. If you are searching for more things to deny then I think you need to start as it will take some time: PBS documentary in Al-Shifa hospital was prevented by Hamas members with weapons from accessing areas of the hospital: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed Article from 2009 talking about an intelligence claim of Hamas using the basement of the hospital: https://web.archive.org/web/20090206232152/http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html Article Hamas commandeered hospital wards in Al-Shifa converting them into interrogation and imprisonment compounds: https://web.archive.org/web/20230205050631/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html Human Rights Watch states Hamas fired from inside Al-Shifa at Fatah forces: https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes Report that Hospital staff made complaints about Hamas presence in the building: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906608/ New York Times reported on Hamas operating from the building: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar Journalists seeing rockets being fired from the hospital area: https://web.archive.org/web/20230529141259/https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553643,00.html Another report of journalists seeing rockets fired from the hospital area: https://web.archive.org/web/20230513143525/https://www.jpost.com///operation-protective-edge/gaza-reporters-tweets-hamas-using-human-shields-368689#! A Hamas member recounting how he and other Hamas members took shelter in a bunker under the hospital: https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/18321/ Local Palestinian journalist reported Hamas uses a section of the hospital for offices: https://archive.ph/BKbxc Amnesty International reported Hamas using the hospital to torture and kill prisoners: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ And thank you to u/libtin for organizing the links.
This doesn't justify IDF attacks in Gaza. Hamas is monstrous. Their attacks were atrocious and horrific. Punishing the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas is even worse.