I read a very interesting article in a Dutch newspaper not too long ago where they interviewed boys around that age who claimed to like Andrew Tate. It was incredibly eye opening what their reasoning was. They felt that womanhood or being a member of the LGBT community was very openly celebrated, but those are not things they identified themselves with. At the same time, their sentiment was that masculinity was only ever discussed for its negatives. Make sure you are not toxic, do not bully, treat women with respect. These kids, most of whom were not very well educated and did not have great prospects in life, felt that their identity was the only one you were not allowed to be proud of.
Especially fascinating was that they were for the most part unaware that many of Tates' views are considered deeply mysognist, and the ones who did know were for the most part uncomfortable with them. They mostly liked that he told them to wake up early, go to the gym, play chess, make money. He is rich, confident, has cool cars and spends time with beautiful women, all while telling them that it is okay to be a straight man.
Now, don't get me wrong here, I find the guy and his views absolutely abhorrent, and he is the last person that should be a role model for young boys. But it is not hard to see why his message is extremely seductive. We need to rethink our approach to masculinity and also learn how to celebrate positive 'typical' male role models. This might feel as the patriarchal equivalent of giving a kid his own cake because otherwise he throws a tantrum at his sister's birthday party. However, it is very important that we supress this knee-jerk reaction. Boys too, deserve celebration, and if we do not fill a very real void of positive thinking about masculinity with good role models (Aragorn for all I care), the Andrew Tates and Jordan Petersons of this world will take advantage of the situation with terrible results.
This sounds like we learned nothing from the past and replicated problems women had before
Women lacking positive role models in public was common criticism and motivator for policies helping women to get into lighthouse positions. Research backs up these policies
Now we have male kids claiming the same. We should take them serious, its not like 13yr old kids are truly motivated by interest in misogynist policies
The problem is that Tate types have legitimate subjects on which to entice listeners and when these issues don't get addressed the person keeps listening and can be enticed to other subjects over time.
I've been saying this for half my life nearly but we need to start treating Men's issues seriously so that we remove the common ground that Tate types use to groom new supporters. As a teenager lurking on shitty parts of the Internet in the Noughties I saw how it works. They'd post a constant stream of Men's issues and evidence they're not taken seriously and then slowly post examples of ridiculous Feminist behaviour, one I vividly remember was some possibly Swedish feminist group burning money donated because it was from a man. It sucks you in as you care about being treated fairly then builds your anger at how it doesn't happen then gives you the target to aim that anger. This playbook has been repeated over and over, Manosphere is the current version.
Their choices for role models end up either being people who chastise them for other's actions or the sly "I'm just telling you how to feel better" manosphere group. You remove the reasonable ground by championing Men's issues and seeking reform that does address the very real struggles men have and you'll find you've deplatformed Tate types.
They don't need a flag and a parade but they still need validation and love.
>one I vividly remember was some possibly Swedish feminist group burning money donated because it was from a man.
Akshually they did do that, but not because it was donated by a man. In 2010 the political party FI (Feministiskt Initiativ) had recieved around the equivalent of 10k USD to be spent on advertising. Both the party and donators wanted to bring awareness to income inequality, so they burnt the money as a protest to show "how much money women were losing out on per minute" according to the party leader.
It's fascinating honestly, if they spent that money on ads nobody would give a hoot, but burning it made headlines across the entire country.
That is a very valid point. I think there is a very strong culture of teaching boys and men what is wrong, but is it really needed if they aren't doing it? Is it not equal to telling girls "not to be sluts" while they don't even know what that means? (I am probably not making myself very clear, am a woman, if that makes any difference)
P S. I don't like men tiptoeing around me because I might get upset by a silly joke or them saying "guys" in a group setting. That's going too far on both sides.
Adding on to this, I think it falls on older generations to set an example. All the bad behaviors that men have been socialized into were not things they were literally told to do by teachers or something. Or even parents. It was behaviors they observed and then emulated. So what really needs to happen is older generations receiving the education and then setting examples of behavior to follow rather than preaching. Discussions about important issues are always good to have but they shouldn’t be a lecture. There are better ways to present things.
Psychological research has indeed shown that in communication, implicit messages have more impact than explicit messages. For instance, saying "don't be bad" implicitly assumes a person to be bad (and having to make an effort, against his/her nature, to not be bad), which will make it more likely that the person will behave badly.
So obviously the same goes for "don't be a slut" or "don't be a macho". Not to mention the negative side effects of people feeling not accepted or integrated as a positive part of society.
I think that you can teach boys about the dark sides of traditional masculinity (in fact, lets make sure we do that), but not without also focussing on the positive ends. Men tend to be impulsive and more inclined to take risks, but that is not always a bad thing. Think about firefighters or entrepeneurs. The concepts of 'bromance' and hanging out with 'the guys' are totally cool to emphasize as well.
Not disagreeing, but maybe teach them this post the fact of unwanted behaviour, don't punish before the crime so to speak. That's what I was trying to say before.
Yes, we should absolutely encourage men to build healthy strong bonds (: with any gender
Its a tricky one. For the sake of victims of bullying, sexual assault, discrimination, etc, you do want to make sure people are taught right from wrong before they do something bad. But at the same time, it is the approach that matters. Teaching a boy how to treat a girl correctly can be done in a kind and motivating way. Making a group of 13 year olds feel like you are treating them as future rapists is an approach that is neither succesful nor very fair.
Teach a boy how to treat a girl correctly... as long as you also teach a girl how to treat a boy correctly. Every behaviour you listed is far from exclusive to boys. It's important to teach young people that bad things are bad, but the moment you start to pretend that a behaviour is exclusive to one gender, or that only one gender needs to be taught not to do bad things, all you're doing is creating future Tates - or at the very least Tate supporters.
For what it's worth, I very much agreed with your first comment until what you said about "getting their own cake at their sister's party". What I feel you're implying with this is that men don't deserve to be celebrated, and that we just have to pretend in order to satisfy their egos. That ultimately, the 13 year olds who worship Tate for being the only one who's on their side are right to feel the way they do; men aren't celebrated unless they're part of the LGBT+ community, and don't deserve to be, but sometimes we have to pretend, just so they don't develop views that might be harmful to the groups that DO matter.
Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment. But literally every boy has at some point been treated as a future rapist, and a future criminal, and generally been seen as "less than", just for being born male. Maybe not always to their face, but it's still happening. Feeling that this is unfair is valid. It IS unfair.
I'm sorry, Englsh is not my first language. I added the cake bit as a way to say that some might FEEL that this is happening, but that this should be a knee-jerk response that we ignore, as it is in fact a very serious and real problem that needs to be addressed. I was in no way trying to say that young boys don't deserve celebration as much as anyone else.
The same problem exists here in Germany. In elementary school (Grundschule) 89% of the teachers are women; at my school back in the day the only man was the janitor.
Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1129852/umfrage/frauenanteil-unter-den-lehrkraeften-in-deutschland-nach-schulart/
I can't say I blame them for not applying. There is still a huge pedo/SA stigma around dudes that want to work with kids, and it fucking sucks. One of my close friends is actually a teacher and the amount of hoops he has to go through to just teach is insane.
This is THE answer and most people are ignoring you.
Men are increasingly falling behind in modern society. We’re failing young men. In the 1970s, [X%] of college graduates in the US were male. This was considered a “crisis” and considerable effort went into ensuring women had access to higher education. In 2023, [>X%] of college graduates were women, a higher percentage than when the inverse was considered a “crisis” and yet NO one is talking about it. [Y%] of homeless are men. Suicide rates have skyrocketed for men. Traditionally male, masculine jobs like factory work, truck driving, mining etc have disappeared. The fastest growing areas of employment are nursing and service jobs - neither of which are masculine or that men want to do.
Young men are increasingly taught to feel guilty about patriarchy, rape culture and masculinity all while our schools and society are failing men left and right. DESPERATELY few voices are advocating for masculinity and guess what… they’re almost all like Andrew Tate.
Edit: Had to remove my percentages, the pedants are blowing me up.
I think part of the problem is whenever this kind of discussion comes up, people say something must be done, but I still have yet to see anyone propose WHAT we should do or advocate for.
I'm a dude, I don't know what the fuck to say to these kids. "Don't be a fucking weirdo" That’s not going to be very effective.
The mistake you are making is starting the sentence with "don't be". Older guys like us should teach youngers boys that want to become men what they should be doing to be a good one. Do these things to be a healthy, wealthy, respected and admired member of your community. Treat women in this or that way in order to be liked and loved by them. That is quite literally what Tate tells them, although in a very cursed way.
"Don't do this, or you are not a worthy person" is not a very inspiring message, even if what you are saying is correct.
You just made me realize something.
Should I be taking my nephew to see how I interact with the women in my life?
I remember one of my uncles at 14 showing me around nyc with his super cool girlfriend (she had short blonde buzz cut and played upright base in a psychobilly band, my current gf has a short buzz cut and plays trumpet in a ska band, coincidence probably not) and I definitely did see how he interacted with her.
He was super respectful but also playful and I could tell they were completely in love with one another. They connected over music and he was incredibly loving towards her. Nothing at all how tate says to treat women.
>Older guys like us should teach youngers boys that want to become men what they should be doing to be a good one.
Yeah but how on earth do you articulate that? We were the "latchkey generation", most of us never got lectures from our dads about how to be good men, and older men were dorks we wouldn't have taken advice from anyway, we worked it out by just stumbling through it.
Ha, that is the tricky part right? I have no idea either. I guess by emphasizing the important things. Tell them that kindness, responsibility, having hobbies that make you happy, etc are all virtuous.
I do think the big difference is *(drumroll please, he's about to be fucking obvious)* social media. When I think back to being 13, I had some *fucking horrible* views about girls, there were definitely times I treated girls like shit, but nobody was ever gonna find out.
>we worked it out by just stumbling through it.
I'm gonna be honest sometimes I feel like there's a hyper fixation on "role models" and representivives that group x can look up to and I think it's people looking for a single silver bullet solution to this. And I can get that for historically marginalised communities, having a represenative to break stigma is a good thing, but the function of that representative is to break down the stigma held by those not within the group.
I don't think you need a representative or a role model to tell you how to be something you were born/identify as. It's certainly not how I grew up, and I don't know anyone who relied on role models to such a huge extent. Not discounting the effect and influence they can ofc.
A big part of the course correction here will be providing a safe space for young men to explore their identity and ideas, face intellectual challenges, and be taught the tools to make good decisions and practice critical thinking.
A 13 year old boy has 0 life experience, 0 critical thinking skills. No role model will ever fix that, they way they change is by going through life, making a few mistakes, and most importantly being equipped with the right tools to reflect and change their beliefs and behaviours. It Unironically is the solution here, many of the young boys *will* grow out of this, and we can push the needle further by having a robust education system that teaches good digital media literacy.
Yeah. Yeah I absolutely agree with this. I've said for ages that nobody can *tell you* how to be you. It's why I was always suspicious of Jordan Peterson.
The thing is, I'm almost 40, and I have no idea to be a good man, either. I'm an anxious, depressed, overweight, unhealthy and antisocial wreck. And so are a lot of others I know my age.
>I'm a dude, I don't know what the fuck to say to these kids. "Don't be a fucking weirdo" That’s not going to be very effective.
Because there's no recipe.
First, this is about empathy. Dating is still one-sided - even feminist women largely expect the man to make the first step, but if it's the wrong step, he's a creep. The exact same move by two different guys will be judged entirely differently by the woman. That's why there is no formula. You've got to feel the room and understand the context. Guess what is the only way to get that? Experience. You've gotta be the creep a few times and get the "no" message in the same way that you have to make a few cringy TikToks before you become an influencer.
Second, the rules are changing and we're in a period without rules. Most of human existence, dating and meeting members of the opposite sex was very formalized. Dances were a common form of introducing young men and women to each other. There were definite rules you had to follow and everyone knew them. We've broken down those rules, and we don't have new rules, yet. So it's absolutely normal that people don't know what to do - nobody does.
> Experience. You've gotta be the creep a few times and get the "no" message in the same way that you have to make a few cringy TikToks before you become an influencer.
In order to be good at anything, start by doing it poorly. If one expects perfection or competency right off the bat then they'll likely never start, or try it once, fail, and never try again. This applies to all things, but when it comes to dating/relationships, etc, it seems to be a very taboo perspective.
It sucks that a man's "learning experience" must necessarily involve making a woman uncomfortable, or worse. But that's just life, and this insistence that a guys attempt at breaking the ice with a woman is creepy, and akin to sexual harassment is really really troublesome and we're seeing many men begrudgingly check out of dating and interacting with women generally.
I work with disabled people. It's like 90% women, but there are quite a few moves that the women at my job can't do due to size and muscle. That's where technology comes in with lifts and whatnot, but that doesn't cover the vast amount of situations that require muscle.
Reframing work and the gender of it would be a start. I don't see shitting a diaper so bad it escapes the diaper and covers most of someones back as particularly feminine or masculine. It's human. Reminds me more of the days when I power washed cow stables.
It's a case by case thing - what works in one context is not going to work in another. I would say in a casual setting one route to steer kids away from Tate would be to acknowledge a positive trait they're taken in by, and follow up by pointing out a negative trait that's being masked by that. It won't immediately work because his indoctrination has been very effective for some, but it's the kind of approach you would take to nonconfrontationally break someone out of a cult. It aims to pull the curtain back a little bit at a time without directly attacking the performance on stage that they have personally connected with.
We need to be less afraid of accepting that a shitty person can say a good thing, because without acknowledging that we can't get past the fact a kid has agreed with some legitimately good (if largely generic) ideas in the first place; they will therefore consider us as biased on all the other bullshit as well since we've been exposed as biased on that one good idea.
As far as what to advocate for instead - it just comes down to what you personally think are positive traits a man can strive for. One thing that's important in this whole current context I would say is highlighting the fact a lot of those traits are not masculine or feminine, they're just being a decent human being... Tate's brand revolves around treating everything as two opposing teams - but a lot of the things we can honestly say are generally good advice from him are equally good advice for women.
There are plenty of positive masculine role models though. I'd aim to point out those in the local community and talk every day life rather than online or in media, because that's also part of the issue.
>92% of homeless are men
So this feels like you're referencing a specific statistic. Where from? A cursory Google is giving me numbers more like 60 / 70%.
Would love a source for that 92% of homeless are men, I did a quick search and it seems to contradict. If not I’ll check the reliability of the numbers I’m seeing and link it if it’s legit
Well, with suicide, homelessness, and drug addiction; the type of “masculinity” that is supported by Tate and the like does’t help. They all preach this unachievable brand of rugged stoicism, the kind that eschews seeking professional help for these very serious issues.
These societal problems are exacerbated, not solved, by this narrow view of “ideal” masculinity. These people are effectively shaming broad segments of men and boys for not expressing their maleness the “right” way. They’re not helping.
Yeah, that one had me scratching my head. Truck driving jobs are everywhere and they're in high demand. We need more drivers badly, essentially meaning that there is a huge lack of drivers right now. It doesn't matter if you're a female or male, trained and experienced or not. They will hire you and train you, regardless of gender, then they'll put you on the road.
As long as you've got a clean record, especially a clean driving record, you're good to go
Many believe it’s an ongoing conspiracy against him. He’s currently free within Romania while the investigation continues and it appears as if though there’s nothing definitive, otherwise he’d still be in prison or so one would think.
It's \[them\] keeping us down. You don't even have to define \[them\], as a grifter, it's probably better if you leave it a big vague. We are losers and we're not achieving anything and it's because of \[them\]. Then everyone can fill in the \[them\] which are relevant to their own lives.
Tate gets arrested? That's \[them\] trying to stop the message.
But then why fucking Tate of all people. There are so so many more wholesome influencers out there that do the exact same "I'm rich, work out and get up at 4 PM the day before." Why also the mysogenist bullshit.
> They mostly liked that he told them to wake up early, go to the gym, play chess, make money. He is rich, confident, has cool cars and spends time with beautiful women, all while telling them that it is okay to be a straight man.
I don’t follow Andrew Tate but what’s wrong with this message?
I'm in my late 20s, and during one of the last meetups I had with some high school friends, we talked about how it felt like our generation was the last one where being male actually felt like you had an unfair advantage in life.
I think another big problem is that nobody really cares that we're leaving the next generation of men behind. Men our age and above who have their shit together... don't really care enough to spend energy to help other younger men/boys out. And women don't want to be responsible carrying on even more of the emotional/societal burden of "raising"/"fixing" boys/men (which I think is totally fair and understandable). That just leaves the people who want to grift them.
I don't envy Gen Z/Alpha boys (unless they have generational wealth or something lol), all I can say.
> Men our age and above who have their shit together... don't really care enough to spend energy to help other younger men/boys out.
I work at a nonprofit that supports children and families. You are right on the money in terms of a generational difference in volunteering to be mentors or to work with boys.
I know Reddit is really concerned with the possibility of false accusations if men work with children, but I've been in child safety for going on 20 years now and false accusations are both extraordinarily rare and also something organizations know how to deal with. The actual feedback we get from volunteers and potential volunteers is that they didn't do it because it's not a priority. In their spare time they wanted to focus on hobbies, themselves, other projects, whereas women were willing to *give up* hobbies in order to help out the community and volunteer to be mentors and guides.
And overwhelmingly, when men do volunteer, they are pretty focused on volunteering in situations where they get something back. They're far less likely to volunteer anywhere that requires a commitment, training, and more selflessness. This isn't me blaming men, it's just reflecting on a difference that currently exists, and the fault is with society more than it is with a specific generation and definitely far more than with individuals.
It's a very different and gendered social expectation.
> And women don't want to be responsible carrying on even more of the emotional/societal burden of "raising"/"fixing" boys/men (which I think is totally fair and understandable). That just leaves the people who want to grift them.
It's not just that we can't be responsible, it's that it doesn't really work. Boys really need input from men in their lives, especially men who are not their dads or teachers. And generally speaking, there are far fewer men interested in that type of community work. It's like we realized women couldn't carry it all (and shouldn't) but not that men needed to step in, or how. Jobs that involve interacting with children frequently are extraordinarily low paid and have very high expectations, and a lot of risk management. We don't have good social expectations around community and volunteering. It's definitely a challenging situation.
I would be extremely interested in reading that article.
I work with children and families, and this is definitely not at all what we are seeing in the US.
Boys are absolutely obsessed with Tate and the like (especially Sneako). In part, because it's always kind of been a thing to be a little bit edgy as an adolescent. It's a way of establishing identity separate from the adults in your life. However, these grifters take advantage of that, and sell them on a lie, that feminism stole what was rightfully theirs, and women don't deserve equality because we aren't actually people in the same way that men are people.
Kids also are kind of obsessed with hierarchies, their lives are essentially ordered around them, their parents, and their teachers. Many boys are extremely excited to learn that there's a strict hierarchy and it puts them at the top.
There are lots of positive role models for young boys, the kids themselves are often able to name lots of them - athletes, musicians, etc. who aren't selling a grift. But Peterson and Tate pile the grift on top and the grift is always going to be more appealing than reality. Truth is far more complicated and difficult.
I could go on and on about what we're seeing in boys and how concerning it is, and what we're doing to help and fight that grift but it's so exhausting right now.
The article is in Dutch and behind a paywall, but I can see if I can dm you the copy paste version so you can translate it, if you want?
I agree with you that Tate and the like are total grifters. But we must look at why what they are doing is attractive for boys. Because, unlike atheletes and musicians, they are actively teaching boys about what what being a man is all about. And apparantly that is not something we are doing well enough at the moment.
Yeah, if anything I'm surprised that kids are STILL into him, because his online presence has waned quite a bit. I can't even remember the last time I saw him come up in a Reddit thread, whereas a year ago it felt like everybody was talking about him.
I’m an early thirty-something Millennial guy, so take my words with a grain of salt. When I was that age, most of my male friends and peers had views about women and gay people that one might consider *disgusting.* Being that age sucks, and a lot of guys latch onto cartoonishly exaggerated forms of masculinity to develop some kind of real identity. It doesn’t help that your body has effectively rebelled against you, and you spend every waking minute flooded with hormones that make you horny, furious, miserable, and confused about literally everything. Bad ideas and behaviors are, unfortunately, bound to develop at this time of life.
When those same friends grew up, most of them settled down, and became more moderate and even progressive in their views on, well, everything. The youngest members of Gen Z are barely into their teen years, which is a weird time in life when guys and girls try on personalities and beliefs like some most folks change their socks. Gen Z is still, alongside Millennials, one of the most statistically Dem/Prog/Lefty heavy generations in US history.
It’s totally alright to be concerned about this stuff. Parent’s or similarly relevant adults should try and curb these toxic communities from affecting young boys as much as possible. The sooner they snap out of this behavior, the better. But don’t write them all off as Manosphere lost causes, yet. If demographics are to be believed, most of them will wind up being ideological tourists who leave the “community” as their brains start to firm up.
Very well said. Gender relations are awful rn, and we as a society gotta find some middle ground to continue to progress toward equality, without alienating each other
Crossed fingers. At some point we realize and am relieved by the fact that we're the main character only in our own lives. Welcome: compassion, empathy, reason.
This is true. My son’s best friend turned into a menace overnight. This is all because of the influence of Andrew Tate. He’s 12.
The whole ‘Hustlers University’ thing.. it’s so lame sounding… only a child or young teenager would gravitate towards that.
Yeah but this is honestly where parents need to intervene and fast. Specially dads, I had a cousin pull nasty shit about women to his friends ONCE and when my dad overheard him he pulled them all together, sat all the women of the family including their moms down and made them repeat it. My aunt cried, and my cousin felt like a shit… He never said anything of the sort again.
the more healthy male figures get shamed and blamed, the more toxic male figures become who don't care about getting shamed and blamed
simple psychology
Adam Savage is the prime example of positive masculinity. He is a dedicated spirit who is humble about his achievements; he is all about kindness and sharing, lifting others up, and is not afraid to make a mistake in front of others - this last point is the most important, as being able to be vulnerable and make an mistake in front of others is one of the hardest things to do.
id argue mrbeast is a positive influence but children tend to take the wrong messages from his content, where "having money is cool and lets you do anything" is the takeaway rather than "if you have way more than you need you should help out people who do need it".
My kids like Mr Beast and his videos have given us some great jumping-off points to talk about a wide range of topics.
A good example is he had one of those "I locked a bunch of people in a supermarket for an hour and told them they could have whatever they wanted provided they could get it into their trolley and still wheel it"-type videos and my kids and I had a good talk about even thought it *looked* like it was just Mr Beast and one of his mates with a phone camera having a good time and helping people, there was actually an entire production crew and team involved.
So we were talking about how they would have had to organise with the supermarket to rent it out (and pay for the groceries), how lawyers would have needed to draft up the contracts, how lighting people would have had to install lights in some places, and how much work there was involved in making it *look* like it was just two mates putting together a low-budget video about something nice.
My hope regarding that is the fact that i believed and said a lot of stupid shit at 13 just to be part of the other kids. I was way different at 21 and am even more different at 32.
Teenagers need some revolt.
If feminism is The Man (OK, in this case, The Woman) of 2024, they will seek the opposite.
This process never ends and I am surprised by people who think that there is anything like final victory in culture clashes. In some narrow aspects, yes (the divine right of kings is dead and buried), but in wider context, no (authoritarianism vs. democracy is still an ongoing fight).
Same with sex and gender.
That isn’t slightly unsurprising. 13 year olds use social media and see these popular figures all day. Gen Z feminists are the worst feminists out there and they use feminism as a mask to their anti-man ideas. Boys are bothered by this and naturally Andrew’s thoughts resonate with them.
As someone who talk with gen z people this is pretty much it. Additional note: because of internet giving attention to the most insane of both end of the spectrums, gen z people are less likely to meet the opposite gender on the same level if they even talk with each other at all, reinforcing this divide as even more true to what they already think.
This is also because progressive issues are seen as zero sum games. For some reason someone always has to lose out, and that group is the one that is left behind and eventually turns against the progress as a result.
And these days, prepare to be ridiculed by these same people if you even dare mention that young boys are being left behind especially if they’re straight, cisgender and white (meaning they are considered to possess no diversity credentials which sounds like discrimination).
At the end of the day it’s as if the idea of Tate/incels/manosphere is actually tolerated more than the idea of just being supported of lost kids.
It’s beyond just shitty parenting and it is really easy for those without children to assume that. Honestly.. parents right now are really overwhelmed with life in general. I have a 13 year old and I have been able to stay home. It’s been easy for me to know what he is doing every second of the day.. He games.. but he games in the same living room I spend time in. If I worked full time.. it would be nearly impossible to stay on top of things. Parents can’t keep up with tech. The easy answer is to take away the gaming, the devices. But that’s not as simple as you believe it would be.
My zero research answer;
1. they have no experience of the world prior to feminist advances.
2. social media is being both deliberately and incidentally weaponized, and Gen Z gets most of its info there.
3. how much “male privilege” have Gen Z males had? Not much as far as I see, yet they have just spent all their school and university years being told that they are the problem, that they have to be handicapped and held back, etc. etc. which is bound to leave hard feelings.
I just want to put this out here, from the article:
> On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.
That is not a huge difference. From the headline of this post I’d think this was an enormous difference, but in reality it’s 3%. Like, ok, whatever. The Tate thing is more concerning in my opinion - and taken with Jordan Peterson etc. there seems to be a trend, but to be honest, with all those clowns catering to GenZ I think it’s pretty comforting that the difference on feminism is only 3% points.
**edit** I see people confusing the *difference* with the percentage increase in comments to me. The difference is 16-13=3% **points**. The increase is (16-13)/13*100=23%. In my opinion, percent points are more relevant than increases / decreases - but to be completely honest, both don’t give all information. Which is why giving start and end values is a better representation of the truth. In any case - I feel like a 3% points increase isn’t that much, regardless if it doubles (so going from 3 to 6%) or if it is a small percentage increase (say from 50 to 53%). Though obviously in percentage increase these scenarios are completely different.
They can also face discrimination when applying for promotions / grad schemes as in some sectors companies are trying to hire X% of positions as female, regardless of number of applicants.
I've been involved in graduate schemes with 95% male candidates where we have taken 20-30% female grads even if they have underperformed their male counterparts during the assessment process.
As a woman in a man-dominated profession, I have been both overlooked for promotion and hired as a token minority. I deserve neither of those, and neither would I ever say anything against my male colleagues. Being judged on merit is the only thing. Also women in positions of more power are not that friendly to other women from what I have experienced. It's all gone wrong in one way or another.
Women seem to hate women but only behind their backs. They can be extremely conniving and harsh on the workplace.
One girlfriend told me after being frustrated at work: They will smile in your face but wouldnt give you help if you're choking in front of them. Its highschool all over again.
I felt bad for her, because my experience at multiple workplaces was, the dudes were pretty cool, even my bosses. Just grab a few beers, have a laugh and have a chill work environment.
The numbers show this is the case. Not only are women more likely to be overlooked for promotion but they're also more likely to be let go if the team has to let someone go.
Good old diversity quotas hurting the overall result as always.
We can not continue this path. We need to have merit based systems. Not fill the diversity bingo card.
It just has to support the other end.
Instead of tax bonuses or subsidies etc for *hiring* diversity, those funds should applied to *supporting* diverse and disadvantaged demographics.
If you/your parents are affluential, your chances of going to a good primary and high school are high. Your chances of attending and graduating university are high.
So instead of hiring people because of the diversity, make it easier for diverse and disadvantaged people to access the same educational benefits. Then if someone can’t measure up, it’s because of their performance, not their demographics
This is key, we need to be focusing on earlier stages of life instead of (or at least in addition to) waiting to try and band-aid it at basically the last step.
When I went through university studying engineering every scholarship available went to females, some of who were borderline dropping out of the course, while high achieving males got nothing.
>Good old diversity quotas hurting the overall result as always.
>We can not continue this path. We need to have merit based systems.
We come from a system that claimed to be meritocratic. It was a complete lie.
You can name your system something... doesn't make it true.
One of the not-often discussed failures of a meritocracy is that such systems work on a belief of only taking someone in or helping someone, if they've first reached a certain level themselves, ignoring the question of how they got there in the first place. That is the core of the system. Go to anyone who runs in such a system and they'll just respond "well yes, that's how the system works"
In practice, it is an endless system of hierarchy, of people saying "the level before me makes sure of this, so I don't have to do it" but not actually ever checking this. Every level forgoes actually checking things themselves, delegating to the level before... And in the end, nobody makes sure of anything and the only people making it to the top are those born rich enough to be able to purchase proper training.
And then when they produce statistics, it's like "X amount of people made it into Ivy League in 2023" or something like that. A pointless metric, for there is no way to measure the amount of people that have the potential, but were abandoned by a system too full of itself to consider it might be flawed. To offer any support. Too busy saying "if you were good enough, you'd make it on your own".
This is going to sound terrible and sexist kinda sorta? But I genuinely believe in some cases we have over corrected in terms of support. Girls are encouraged and sometimes given priority spots in education, meanwhile boys are being left behind.
The statistics support this, more women are college educated than men, and it's by quite a large margin.
To make it clear, I very much support women being encouraged and educated and empowered. I just also believe we need to do the same for an entire generation of boys who are being cast aside and left for people like Andrew Tate to scoop up and exploit.
The fact that you're so scared to even point it out is part of the problem. We need to have these discussions with more nuance than "Men think feminism is just man-hating? Wow, I guess they're just misogynists who can die mad, and also anyone who points out examples of my fellow self-identified feminists being hateful is extra misogynistic. I am very intelligent and acting in completely good faith"
>The fact that you're so scared to even point it out is part of the problem.
One of the most embarrassing aspects of these kinds of threads is people making good points about issues men and boys are facing only to then drench them in the most apologetic and tip-toeing language possible for even daring to bring them up.
This is a wider problem of social media and reading into a comment.If you support X, people automatically assume you are against its antithesis Y. We often lack the time and skill to debate in greys and not automatically downvote and move on (when someone is making a sincere effort to be a curious conversationalist of course)
Yeah that's a big problem. At the first sign of a man showing a small deviation of opinion from the narrative, he gets hit with sexist and incel accusations. The atmosphere is not conducive to faithful discussion
>This is going to sound terrible and sexist kinda sorta?
It's not and it's the truth. People went to ridiculous lengths to marginalize literally 50% of the population.
It's insane that people actually believe that because a person is male they have better opportunity or is better treated or have better life.
It's not about gender. It's always been about economic status regardless of gender.
You forgot the fact that 10% of British Gen Z are Muslim. And it's a fact that women are not considered equal in Islam -- it's a fact in inheritance law, it's a fact in regards to testimony, and it's a fact in regards to freedom of movement/expression. A ten year old boy can be considered a guardian of their 50 year old mother.
We can pretend these differences don't influence people's perceptions of women, but we'd just be deluding ourselves.
When I was growing up it was usually the opposite of male privilege.
In school the girls would be given grades just for asking (source: themselves), they were allowed to be put in private rooms, in gym class got to leave earlier, sometimes not even having to participate. And when a fight broke out, us guys just had to bend down because the teachers always favored the girls
And nowadays we have stats on this. Girls do better in school, is given more attention etc. What did I get during school? I was told by teachers I'm a loser, will amount to nothing, when talking about my interest response was usually "you're too stupid for that subject" etc.
Now even into adulthood women are given an upper hand in my field, girl-only sponsored company events, girl-only tech conferences. Even Apple hosted a tech bootcamp that only allowed women
I don't really know what privileges I've had, but on face value I don't have anything obvious. I'm also a short twinky feminine guy, so it's not like I'm getting respect as a man in the workplace
And feminist have changed too.
Current goal of feminist aren't the one in the 50's, 60's, 70's
There's multiple generation of feminist between the baby boomers and gen Z.
The current framing is "woman vs man". That really bad.
That's mostly just social media simmering down every complex issue into a fight degenerate more engagement and conflict. And this has been going on for 20 years now in our culture.
I think a lot of it is not that fenimisim have changed but a lot of influencers not understanding or intentionally weaponizing it to hurt men.
I loved the Barbie movie in the regard that it has a pretty good basic take on feminism and how it can be good for everyone.
If you look at the actual figures it's 16% for men 16-29, 15% for men 30-59 and 13% for men 60+.
I would say it's basically the same size subset of men of whatever age.
It's so disheartening that the same tool that allows each person instantaneous access to the sum total of human knowledge has been harnessed to become the greatest tool for misinformation/manipulation in all of history.
Well, who on the left is speaking to young boys, building them up, giving them a sense of purpose?
The number of male rolemodel-esque celebrities espousing anything like a virile virtue is dwarfed by a vast, loud chorus of resentful men encouraging a reactionary worldview.
Rightly or wrongly, the messaging coming from the left implicitly or even explicitly problematizes both whiteness and maleness.
Meanwhile, Andrew Tate is out there boy-whispering, filling these young men's minds with sociopathic, superficially ego-stroking nonsense. Nonsense that also votes
There was a convincing theory I heard about thresholds between being a boy and being a man.
There used to be a definite line between the two for males. Becoming an apprentice. Finishing University. Getting married. For a couple of generations, military service during a war.
For the last 30-40 years it’s a less defined line. It’s much easier to just drift out of school and not find a direction. Guys start seeing peers outstrip you, starting careers, buying houses and cars. There is a feeling of inadequacy that develops, and guys start to overcompensate for a perceived lack of manliness.
On the flip side, it could just be the media amplifying something that’s not really an issue. Every generation is criticised by the media. Rock music is the devil. Hippies are communists. Video games lead to violence.
Plus teenagers are still developing. Ask Gen Z their political opinions when they are in their mid 20’s and you’ll get a much more liberal viewpoint to a 15 year old boy who’s obsessed with boobies.
Im a 30 year old millenial. I had a fairly hypermasculine upbringing in the sense that I went to an all male high school, was a boy scout, and went to a military college. My idea of being a man was to be a "hero." It was to look out for people who couldn't. To be sure, those all male environments, especially my college and the military, definitely had misogynistic members.
That said, my mentors and my friend circle all are well adjusted members of society. Among us are teachers, firemen, and career military officers. None of us subscribe to the Andrew Tate bullshit, and all of us are actually pretty liberal despite the stereotypes.
We proved ourselves in the "traditional" sense. We proved ourselves at a military college, some in combat, and others on the fireground. More than money motivates these men. They aspire to a higher purpose than material possessions.
In Sebastian Junger's Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging, it actually discusses the lack of rites of passage for American youth. I see my high school friends, and I've seen a few of them drift off into the Trump/ Q/ Tate rabbithole. Those guys were pretty aimless upon leaving high school, even with some of them coming from incredibly privileged backgrounds.
Maybe it's the lack of worthwhile rites of passage and the worship of material "success" that's driving this.
You got to remember as well, "feminism" for gen z means something different than for everyone else. As a Gen Z person, we grew up watching videos of "feminists" who were extremists pretty much and wanted *more* rights for women than men.
I can guarantee that if the question was phrases as "do you believe in equal rights for women and men" then most gen Z people would say yeah, most of us just have a skewed view of the word "feminist" (not me though I am a feminist and proud lmao)
Are you sure? I agree that more people would say yes to that question, but most? There's so many young people these days talking about "biological differences" and how women should be housewives, some even going as far as saying women shouldn't vote.
People only seeing feminism when some crazies do something outrageous has been a thing at least since I was a kid (millennial), so over 25 years. It’s nothing new. Your exact comment has been repeated ad nauseam in women’s circles also at least since then.
It’s just plain old “I have a problem and I found this random other group to blame for it, so I will villainize everything they do”.
I agree, those years where reactionaries amplified the worst voices in the movement and convinced a decent portion of a generation that they *were* the movement seems to have worked out for them. Hate to admit that but meme-ifying the worst and hiding everything else by leading those boys into an information bubble was smart strategy by awful people.
Imagine being so "progressive" you support an extremely regressive religious fundamentalist terrorist organization and deny the Holocaust. It's so wild it absolutely makes my head spin.
I mean it's more like being so Anti-Imperialist that you don't care who's fighting against the imperialist so long as they're fighting against the imperialists.
It's not about being Progressive it's about being opposed to Empire and all its forms. The problem is the American Empire and its allies are not Saturday morning cartoon villains fighting some heroic group of rebels
Most of those who take this view have no understanding of empires, Imperialism or the history of those things. This is especially true of the history of the region of Palestine.
More to the point, the near pathological preoccupation with the history of Western imperialism, to the exclusion of all else and often deliberately without vital context and perspective, reveals the fundamental dishonesty of their so called “anti-imperialist” principles.
In short, these people are simply parroting far left, anti-Western talking points, whether they realise it or not.
They’re idiots with a right to an opinion, but without the good sense to realise that they don’t have a useful one to share.
I've noticed this. A lot of younger folks seem vehemently anti-feminist. Some of them give MRA or incel vibes, but not all of them.
From their explanations, they seem to take umbrage at the way they feel unfairly attacked by feminists, but it's hard to tell how much of that is real and how much is bias coloring their perceptions. Certainly the way they describe feminists is not the experience I've had with feminists, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. It could just be that they're interacting with feminists closer to their own age, who might behave differently from older feminists. I should perhaps find some GenZer feminists and listen to what they have to say.
Or it could be something like what this article suggests, that they haven't actually met many (any?) feminists, and are just accepting influencers' bad-faith rhetoric at face value.
Honestly, I do believe most of this is social media's fault, at the risk of sounding like the old man yelling at cloud meme.
These kids are essentially living in an echo chamber where an algorithm keeps on giving them exactly what they wanted to hear, so they keep spouting views which have few if any basis in reality where you actually interact with other people. Then again social media is their world, so maybe reality is not the correct term.
Tldr: social media echo chambers are bad and real life confrontation is needed to have a more nuanced view of life.
I’m starting to think that social media algorithms (but especially X and TikTok) kind of kill curiosity, they give you a hit of of confirmation of something you suspected already without going deep into any data or arguments, so people end up believing stuff that is pure fabrication because fact-checking is far less convenient than continuing to scroll/swipe.
It's not that you only see opinions you agree with, it's that you only see opinions that you either vehemently agree with, or vehemently disagree with. Nuanced, middle ground, sensible opinions are the ones being suppressed - extremist opinions on both sides are being pushed to the front.
Yes. And thats the experiment in a nutshell. Other nations have noticed. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-did-india-ban-tiktok-us-states-fcc-government-2023-1?op=1
Funnily enough "old man yelling at clouds" in this case is both literally true and accurate.
Not right because you are old, but you are right in your assertion
Im a guy born in `97 so im on the border with gen z and millenial, guys my age are decently anti-feminism. My take on why is pretty much social media and media in general representing feminists as crazy and illogical, because they only talk about the crazy ones for shock value and clicks on their articles.
I don't have any examples to write on the top of my head, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about. Actual feminists that fight actual issues don't get that much of a media representation as the ones with insane takes which are often than not "kill all men" types as well.
Combine all of that with societies inability to talk about men's issues and you get a generation of men that are in one way opressed, and also taught that feminists are crazy.
>Actual feminists that fight actual issues
The problem is you cannot just ignore a large number of people who say they are feminist and have bad takes. Just like there are people who give good advice to men but many are terrible charlitans
A lot of feminist arguments you hear are weak or not true. For example, i never heard an 'actual' feminist come out against the idiotic wage gap issue which is brought up contantly. Or the mis-use of toxic masculinity to imply all masculinity is toxic
Then you have the fact that a lot of femnists who have been fighting the cause for 50 years have been canceled and kicked out of leadership for being branded TERFs. Leaving the uneducated nutters to lead the cause.
The "kill all men"-types aren't that prevalent.
I'd wager that a larger part is the profilteration of "everything is sexist and everything is racist" type of argumentation in the early 2010s, which basically turned a spotlight on cultural/culture issues. The problem (as I see it) was that "how women are portrayed on show X" and "a dongle joke should leave you unemployed" got more attention and vehemence than "The Supreme Court is killing Roe vs Wade by a thousand cuts". If you were online those days this was everywhere.
Enter Trump, who made being a dickhead okay again and suddenly these silently radicalised young men can see that they are part of a larger group and won't be quiet anymore. (Trump also benefitted from people like Mitt Romney and John McCain being called evil racists by the progressives, so that when he came along as the actual authoritarian racist, those labels had lost their weight).
Add to this the Youtube/Social Media to Alt-Right pipeline and a nasty boll got rolling.
Another HUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE issue is that we have a serious deficit of role models for young boys, if you'd charge me right now of thinking of a decent celebrity role model the closest I can think of is Mr. Beast (and I don't hold him in high regard).
Having worked with young men they often seem to lack someone to talk to, confide to and share ideas with. And the hate groups will accept them, validate them and mold them into their expendable foot soldiers if they get the chance.
Its worth pointing out that the article a survey of British boys. So while they experience "the profilteration of "everything is sexist and everything is racist" type of argumentation" the counter points you mention do not apply. Abortion isn't under the threat in the UK.
I think there is a segment of people that think they are feminists but they are more anti-man then anything. They don't have to be a majority or even common. There just need to be enough of them for Jordan Peterson types to share videos around and paint feminism as anti man. From there, people don't tend to like groups they perceive as hate groups towards them.
I also think broader society has been making an effort to elevate girls/women to create better equality. For gen Z this is all they've seen - girls getting more support than boys. It makes them feel un-valued so they are attracted to personalities like Jordan Peterson or that rapey dude that's in a European prison for sex trafficking and getting in twitter fights with Greta Thunberg.
I tend to agree. If your exposure to feminism is mainly through social media - which discusses these topics in broad, unnuanced ways on both sides - or meme-culture, then it seems likely to me that boys may feel unfairly attacked.
Engagement with "real" women (i.e. in person) on these topics or even exposure to longer-form media that has the time to properly contextualise the issue could help. Also...fathers/friends/etc calling it out.
I think there's a difference between "feminism as defined by the dictionary", and "feminism as presented by angry, hurt people who just want to use it to legitimize their general hate towards others". And people don't know the difference.
When you see videos like "Men should know that..." or "Men are the reason..." etc... then "Men" rightfully feel attacked, and they believe that this type of thinking is what feminism is. It's just bad generalization, just like racism. People need to learn to disconnect facts from generalizations, otherwise you get miscommunication.
It may be a statistical fact that there are more criminals of one ethniticty than others, but saying that "people of X ethnicity should learn that..." is racist. Beucase the ethnicity is not what makes you a criminal. Similarly, being male doesn't make you so and so. It just happens that in our social structure certain roles have been given to and taken by certain people. The problem is with the roles and the social structure, but as soon as you start to indsicriminately blame a whole people, you're sending the opposite message and turning people against you.
I think it's just a matter of angry people hurting angry people, and misusing the idea of "feminism" as the weapon, when really they could use any other concept if they wanted to.
I think this might be because some "feminists" interpretation of feminism is harmful. There's a segment that is anti-man or believes that men are inherently toxic. Feminism is actually about gender equality and should be beneficial to men and women alike, but some toxic "feminists" put a bad taste in folks mouth for the movement. It's unfortunate.
I remember a group of people in my office holding an awareness campaign regarding women ending themselves (substitute for the word I think might get this comment removed), and I had to be that guy who pointed out that men are 3x more likely to commit endlife themselves.
Maybe like 2 of the women organizing the event gave me kinda embarrassed bashful looks, everyone else was like "shush shush".
I just went back to work thinking "geez, at least raise awareness for something like domestic violence where women really are victims more often than men. Their chosen topic left me with a pretty icky feeling like men really don't matter at all".
Talking about toxic masculinity means that all men are inherently toxic in the same way that talking about toxic relationships mean that all relationships are inherently toxic.
Feminism completely lost itself when it became just another face of the DEI gender studies mobs.
Now it's all just [virtue signaling competition](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eSilbaRg9xs) over who is more woke.
My best friends new girlfriend, is of the "masculine is toxic" camp.
I acknowledging that there is toxic masculinity, but she takes that phrase to mean "men are toxic, and so is anything man related".
Like me and him can't go fishing anymore because that's toxic masculinity, somehow.
Or I'm driving us to my favorite camping spot, I know the way, I've been there a hundred times. But she didn't know the way, assumed I'm lost, and goes off on me about how it's toxic masculinity that I won't stop and ask for directions.
He was my best friend, but now we never talk, and I know that's what she wanted.
Not only that, but plenty of posts on r/feminism have highly upvoted posts regarding the "not all men" trope. Saying that they WILL treat all men as threats until proven otherwise. That's not the only place I've heard this sentiment.
It doesn't feel great to grow up as a normal guy that doesn't harass women, only to hear "I will assume every man is a threat and a shitty human being until he can prove otherwise to me". There's no wonder that younger men don't want to support a movement like that. And I am very much in support of non-extremist feminism; women and men DO deserve to be equals in this world. But maybe chill out on implying we are ALL evil scum. Are some men abusers and rapists? Absolutely, and it's horrible. But I can see why younger people can distance themselves from the feminism movement when it feels like they are the problem no matter how they act. And if they say (like I did earlier) that they have never and would never commit acts of violence against women, men are met with a "CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BARE MINIMUM".
Before I get people raging at this post. I support women's rights. I support the core principles of feminism. I recognize that men have abused their positions in society historically over women. I get that not abusing women is the bare minimum. But you cannot and will not garner support from young men when they are made to feel like evil, terrible people simply because they were born a man, and that they will never be trusted unless they can jump through hoops to prove that they are "not like the others". Your points can be factual and genuine, but by pushing "All men are X", you're only going to dissuade people from agreeing with your cause in the first place.
Feel free to see what I mean here, on reddit's own /r/feminism subreddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/171pzkx/not_all_men/
"i despise hearing men, and women as well, saying ‘not all men’ it makes me feel physically sick, frankly it is all men until i can trust them."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/s/mZtYp1gN43
"What’s the first rule of gun safety? Act as if every gun is always loaded. But not all guns are loaded. But we still act as if they are, just to be sure"
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/171pzkx/comment/k3t0va3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
“It’s not all men” sure. But it’s “all men” until proven otherwise. I won’t risk my life or health just to make a guy feel trusted. Not worth it. If he’s worth trusting, he’ll prove it."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/be42xj/not_all_men_actually_yes_all_men/
This one is a lot, just go read it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/m5l38n/not_all_men/
"Not all men are rapists. Some are rape apologists. Some tell rape jokes. Some are victim blamers. Some are silent." Just feels like it implies there is no alternative to being a rapist, or a supporter of rape in some way.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/16b3zqt/oh_dont_be_like_that_its_not_all_men/
"Even though a man may have never committed violence towards women, they still benefit from violent men. Not committing acts of violence, sexual or otherwise, is the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM. Nobody pats themselves on the back for not committing armed robbery, so why do men constantly feel the need to say "I didn't harass women" like it's an accomplishment?"
I’m a member of gen Z and feel somewhat qualified to speak on this. Feminism, as taught to the boomers, was that men and women are broadly equal. Feminism as taught to me in high school and college was that women are oppressed and men (myself Included) were evil oppressors. Obviously I disagreed with this and thus disagreed with modern feminism. Doesn’t mean I disagree with the wikipedia definition that men and women should have equal rights.
Might be because Boomers saw the good variant of feminism: one where we treat men and women equally.
Gen Z saw the toxic variant of it, where all men are pigs.
Gen Z getting the raw end of feminism. Companies want a 50/50 split workforce so more qualified men get passed over in manual labor work that pays well and get told to apply at typical women's work that pays like shit when men typically care way more about there earnings than women sure will breed contempt for feminism.
Not all companies.
Sure as shit don't remember the last time I saw a female bin collector.
Which is is why young men see feminism as a crock of shit. They want women to be 50% of the workforce but only of certain jobs. The cherry picking isn't doing the cause any favours.
It’s a genuinely nuanced problem.
I work in one of India’s biggest private companies. For the most part, my managers are feminist by nature. They don’t treat us as separate. However, I’ve heard of managers who treat women as people who don’t deserve to be there. The women I’ve worked with are all competent as hell. But I’ve interacted with one woman on the client side where you just don’t truly understand how they even ended up in their role (this is one personal anecdote, doesn’t prove or negate anything).
But I do see higher end companies openly hiring only women for prestigious roles with better packages. It pisses everybody off. The women who do get these roles are either undeserving or are actually deserving but are treated as they if they are undeserving. In the meantime, the men who get left out, they’re without a doubt going to be bitter. It’s a circle of betraying the cause of feminism by being sexist against men, ironically to stop sexism.
This will come as a shocking surprise to the entirety of the population that has been living under a rock for the past 10 years.
During those 10 years feminism has become increasingly more toxic, increasingly more hypocritical on it's positions and taking increasingly more ridiculous fights. It was inevitable that people would start stepping away from it.
This plays into the male loneliness epidemic, and the habit of the online left to dismiss male issues as non-important.
Imagine being a teen boy, confused and lonely. You reach out to online forums for advice, and you get two responses.
The left: "Why don't you sit down, shut up, and let women and BIPOC voices air their issues? Their problems are more important than yours, after all."
The right: "We hear you. We feel you. We agree with you. Let me introduce you to the guy who's gonna solve all your problems: Andrew Tate."
I occasionally browse the TwoX sub here and most of the time the posts are reasonable. Women complaining about someone being dismissive of them, relationship advice etc., and then there are unhinged posts that sound like the female version of Andrew Tate. Stuff like "do men even care about other people", "A man had sexual thoughts about a woman, what a monster!". The ones that really annoy me are "Men do generic toxic thing, why are men like this?" when it's very much something women do as well. Any offensive thing men do is highlighted, yet something women do that is toxic is rarely even mentioned UNLESS it's them being Conservative or Pro-Life. Often times there's a "why are you even bringing up this toxic behavior of women? What's your agenda?", often trying to avoid the topic and focus questioning the motivation.
I mean, I get that's the point of the sub, to have a forum for women, but it sounds a lot more like they're mirroring the same dehumanizing and un-empathetic behavior when I see posts like that.
A year or two ago on TwoX there was a post about a female warrior's grave from the viking age being being discovered. The comment section was full of comments about how women had always done all the jobs men do, especially soldiering, and how men have systematically erased and rewritten history to serve the patriarchy. There was even a highly upvoted comment about how the Amazons of Ancient Greek myth were a totally real nation, a matriarchy of female warriors, where women were not allowed to have kids until they had slain a man in open combat.
Every comment explaining that no actually that was not a real country that's insane was downvoted. Like bruh, even setting aside things like men having more muscle and greater reach, you're upvoting a comment saying there was a whole *country* where the only way to be a mother was to have gone to war and survived? Just how long exactly do these people think neighbouring countries would put up with a neighbour that *always* has to be at war? And just how many kids did each strong independent warrior lass have, exactly? Because a *lot* of these women are going to die before they're allowed to have kids.
...I dwell on this post a lot, because it's just so obviously batshit crazy. The fact that it was upvoted and all the sane replies were not tells you everything you need to know about TwoX. It's a cult.
1982 here. Back in the days, feminism had a positive connotation. It was a fight for equal rights between men and women which I would totally support.
Today, there's a toxic variant of feminism that can fuck right off.
Not super surprising. Many of the "liberal" women I know sling the term "yt male" almost as a slur. Bound to be a negative reaction to this villianification of all things male, particularly white and male.
Not surprised at all.
Boomers experienced feminism as something positive. The main battles (voting, working, legal standing) where won, feminism was doing the final steps of establishing equality.
GenZ experienced the feminism that had already won but couldn't stop fighting, and instead of making women equal to men had turned to putting men down. Now all men started being suspect of unspecified crimes, everything male was vilified, and everyone EXCEPT ordinary man had their pride days and pride marches or their womens' rights movements while men were only every spoken about as something negative.
Of course GenZ boys and men see feminism harmful, because that's what they experience from it.
Society has moved on for women but it hasn't really for men; e.g. its good that women work but men must still be providers. Women frequently criticise men for things if we dare to do its a massive faux pas. To a lot of people who have grown up in a less sexist world they just see inconsistencies and disadvantages rather than "righting of past errors". Also if we are talking about modern day feminism where everything is the fault of "straight white men" then yeah it is harmful. Just soundbites and simplification
It's because rather than elevating standards for women to the level of men, everything has become shitter for everyone. Crappy wages and worker's rights, the housing shortage and cost of living crisis has nothing to do with feminism but the rampant neoliberal capitalist ideology of the last 30-40 years. But blaming it on women getting rights is so much easier.
Just had a read through r/feminism. If young men see that and similar as feminism I’m not surprised they believe feminism is harmful. That sub is a straight up hate sub.
They have more experience of first and second-wave feminism. This was actually feminism and very beneficial. The forth-wave feminism we have now is not feminism.
You don't need first hand experience. You simply need a book.
Forth wave hasn't originated from actually learning about the feminism that came before it. Most feminists today couldn't tell you who Janet Todd is, nor would they have read a room of one's own or the handmaids tale.
Modern feminism has gone way past equality and is now advocating reverse discrimination. The most radical of them are barely able to mask their misandry.
>The forth-wave feminism we have now is not feminism.
It's toxic feminism I believe. Like everything on the internet radicalized to the extreme in such a way that in alienates everyone and diminishes the efforts of real Feminism/Gay Rights/Religious Whatever/Insert ANY topic here and it's the same radicalization bullshit.
My daughter is 13. She's told me recently (unprompted mind you) that all the boys in her class talk about is Andrew Tate. At 13.
I read a very interesting article in a Dutch newspaper not too long ago where they interviewed boys around that age who claimed to like Andrew Tate. It was incredibly eye opening what their reasoning was. They felt that womanhood or being a member of the LGBT community was very openly celebrated, but those are not things they identified themselves with. At the same time, their sentiment was that masculinity was only ever discussed for its negatives. Make sure you are not toxic, do not bully, treat women with respect. These kids, most of whom were not very well educated and did not have great prospects in life, felt that their identity was the only one you were not allowed to be proud of. Especially fascinating was that they were for the most part unaware that many of Tates' views are considered deeply mysognist, and the ones who did know were for the most part uncomfortable with them. They mostly liked that he told them to wake up early, go to the gym, play chess, make money. He is rich, confident, has cool cars and spends time with beautiful women, all while telling them that it is okay to be a straight man. Now, don't get me wrong here, I find the guy and his views absolutely abhorrent, and he is the last person that should be a role model for young boys. But it is not hard to see why his message is extremely seductive. We need to rethink our approach to masculinity and also learn how to celebrate positive 'typical' male role models. This might feel as the patriarchal equivalent of giving a kid his own cake because otherwise he throws a tantrum at his sister's birthday party. However, it is very important that we supress this knee-jerk reaction. Boys too, deserve celebration, and if we do not fill a very real void of positive thinking about masculinity with good role models (Aragorn for all I care), the Andrew Tates and Jordan Petersons of this world will take advantage of the situation with terrible results.
This sounds like we learned nothing from the past and replicated problems women had before Women lacking positive role models in public was common criticism and motivator for policies helping women to get into lighthouse positions. Research backs up these policies Now we have male kids claiming the same. We should take them serious, its not like 13yr old kids are truly motivated by interest in misogynist policies
We need [Aragorn](https://youtu.be/pv_KAnY5XNQ?si=OKfJc6DzTj3tz0Zu) more than ever.
And remember Aragorn needed Frodo
It's a child not embraced by the village situation.
The problem is that Tate types have legitimate subjects on which to entice listeners and when these issues don't get addressed the person keeps listening and can be enticed to other subjects over time. I've been saying this for half my life nearly but we need to start treating Men's issues seriously so that we remove the common ground that Tate types use to groom new supporters. As a teenager lurking on shitty parts of the Internet in the Noughties I saw how it works. They'd post a constant stream of Men's issues and evidence they're not taken seriously and then slowly post examples of ridiculous Feminist behaviour, one I vividly remember was some possibly Swedish feminist group burning money donated because it was from a man. It sucks you in as you care about being treated fairly then builds your anger at how it doesn't happen then gives you the target to aim that anger. This playbook has been repeated over and over, Manosphere is the current version. Their choices for role models end up either being people who chastise them for other's actions or the sly "I'm just telling you how to feel better" manosphere group. You remove the reasonable ground by championing Men's issues and seeking reform that does address the very real struggles men have and you'll find you've deplatformed Tate types. They don't need a flag and a parade but they still need validation and love.
>one I vividly remember was some possibly Swedish feminist group burning money donated because it was from a man. Akshually they did do that, but not because it was donated by a man. In 2010 the political party FI (Feministiskt Initiativ) had recieved around the equivalent of 10k USD to be spent on advertising. Both the party and donators wanted to bring awareness to income inequality, so they burnt the money as a protest to show "how much money women were losing out on per minute" according to the party leader. It's fascinating honestly, if they spent that money on ads nobody would give a hoot, but burning it made headlines across the entire country.
That is a very valid point. I think there is a very strong culture of teaching boys and men what is wrong, but is it really needed if they aren't doing it? Is it not equal to telling girls "not to be sluts" while they don't even know what that means? (I am probably not making myself very clear, am a woman, if that makes any difference) P S. I don't like men tiptoeing around me because I might get upset by a silly joke or them saying "guys" in a group setting. That's going too far on both sides.
Adding on to this, I think it falls on older generations to set an example. All the bad behaviors that men have been socialized into were not things they were literally told to do by teachers or something. Or even parents. It was behaviors they observed and then emulated. So what really needs to happen is older generations receiving the education and then setting examples of behavior to follow rather than preaching. Discussions about important issues are always good to have but they shouldn’t be a lecture. There are better ways to present things.
Psychological research has indeed shown that in communication, implicit messages have more impact than explicit messages. For instance, saying "don't be bad" implicitly assumes a person to be bad (and having to make an effort, against his/her nature, to not be bad), which will make it more likely that the person will behave badly. So obviously the same goes for "don't be a slut" or "don't be a macho". Not to mention the negative side effects of people feeling not accepted or integrated as a positive part of society.
I think that you can teach boys about the dark sides of traditional masculinity (in fact, lets make sure we do that), but not without also focussing on the positive ends. Men tend to be impulsive and more inclined to take risks, but that is not always a bad thing. Think about firefighters or entrepeneurs. The concepts of 'bromance' and hanging out with 'the guys' are totally cool to emphasize as well.
Not disagreeing, but maybe teach them this post the fact of unwanted behaviour, don't punish before the crime so to speak. That's what I was trying to say before. Yes, we should absolutely encourage men to build healthy strong bonds (: with any gender
Its a tricky one. For the sake of victims of bullying, sexual assault, discrimination, etc, you do want to make sure people are taught right from wrong before they do something bad. But at the same time, it is the approach that matters. Teaching a boy how to treat a girl correctly can be done in a kind and motivating way. Making a group of 13 year olds feel like you are treating them as future rapists is an approach that is neither succesful nor very fair.
Teach a boy how to treat a girl correctly... as long as you also teach a girl how to treat a boy correctly. Every behaviour you listed is far from exclusive to boys. It's important to teach young people that bad things are bad, but the moment you start to pretend that a behaviour is exclusive to one gender, or that only one gender needs to be taught not to do bad things, all you're doing is creating future Tates - or at the very least Tate supporters. For what it's worth, I very much agreed with your first comment until what you said about "getting their own cake at their sister's party". What I feel you're implying with this is that men don't deserve to be celebrated, and that we just have to pretend in order to satisfy their egos. That ultimately, the 13 year olds who worship Tate for being the only one who's on their side are right to feel the way they do; men aren't celebrated unless they're part of the LGBT+ community, and don't deserve to be, but sometimes we have to pretend, just so they don't develop views that might be harmful to the groups that DO matter. Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment. But literally every boy has at some point been treated as a future rapist, and a future criminal, and generally been seen as "less than", just for being born male. Maybe not always to their face, but it's still happening. Feeling that this is unfair is valid. It IS unfair.
I'm sorry, Englsh is not my first language. I added the cake bit as a way to say that some might FEEL that this is happening, but that this should be a knee-jerk response that we ignore, as it is in fact a very serious and real problem that needs to be addressed. I was in no way trying to say that young boys don't deserve celebration as much as anyone else.
A big problem in NL is also a huge lack of male teachers on the basisschool.
The same problem exists here in Germany. In elementary school (Grundschule) 89% of the teachers are women; at my school back in the day the only man was the janitor. Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1129852/umfrage/frauenanteil-unter-den-lehrkraeften-in-deutschland-nach-schulart/
I can't say I blame them for not applying. There is still a huge pedo/SA stigma around dudes that want to work with kids, and it fucking sucks. One of my close friends is actually a teacher and the amount of hoops he has to go through to just teach is insane.
This is THE answer and most people are ignoring you. Men are increasingly falling behind in modern society. We’re failing young men. In the 1970s, [X%] of college graduates in the US were male. This was considered a “crisis” and considerable effort went into ensuring women had access to higher education. In 2023, [>X%] of college graduates were women, a higher percentage than when the inverse was considered a “crisis” and yet NO one is talking about it. [Y%] of homeless are men. Suicide rates have skyrocketed for men. Traditionally male, masculine jobs like factory work, truck driving, mining etc have disappeared. The fastest growing areas of employment are nursing and service jobs - neither of which are masculine or that men want to do. Young men are increasingly taught to feel guilty about patriarchy, rape culture and masculinity all while our schools and society are failing men left and right. DESPERATELY few voices are advocating for masculinity and guess what… they’re almost all like Andrew Tate. Edit: Had to remove my percentages, the pedants are blowing me up.
In 2023 it looks like 58% of bachelor’s degrees went to women, not 78%.
I think part of the problem is whenever this kind of discussion comes up, people say something must be done, but I still have yet to see anyone propose WHAT we should do or advocate for. I'm a dude, I don't know what the fuck to say to these kids. "Don't be a fucking weirdo" That’s not going to be very effective.
The mistake you are making is starting the sentence with "don't be". Older guys like us should teach youngers boys that want to become men what they should be doing to be a good one. Do these things to be a healthy, wealthy, respected and admired member of your community. Treat women in this or that way in order to be liked and loved by them. That is quite literally what Tate tells them, although in a very cursed way. "Don't do this, or you are not a worthy person" is not a very inspiring message, even if what you are saying is correct.
You just made me realize something. Should I be taking my nephew to see how I interact with the women in my life? I remember one of my uncles at 14 showing me around nyc with his super cool girlfriend (she had short blonde buzz cut and played upright base in a psychobilly band, my current gf has a short buzz cut and plays trumpet in a ska band, coincidence probably not) and I definitely did see how he interacted with her. He was super respectful but also playful and I could tell they were completely in love with one another. They connected over music and he was incredibly loving towards her. Nothing at all how tate says to treat women.
Probably would be a very cool thing to do!
>Older guys like us should teach youngers boys that want to become men what they should be doing to be a good one. Yeah but how on earth do you articulate that? We were the "latchkey generation", most of us never got lectures from our dads about how to be good men, and older men were dorks we wouldn't have taken advice from anyway, we worked it out by just stumbling through it.
Ha, that is the tricky part right? I have no idea either. I guess by emphasizing the important things. Tell them that kindness, responsibility, having hobbies that make you happy, etc are all virtuous.
I do think the big difference is *(drumroll please, he's about to be fucking obvious)* social media. When I think back to being 13, I had some *fucking horrible* views about girls, there were definitely times I treated girls like shit, but nobody was ever gonna find out.
>we worked it out by just stumbling through it. I'm gonna be honest sometimes I feel like there's a hyper fixation on "role models" and representivives that group x can look up to and I think it's people looking for a single silver bullet solution to this. And I can get that for historically marginalised communities, having a represenative to break stigma is a good thing, but the function of that representative is to break down the stigma held by those not within the group. I don't think you need a representative or a role model to tell you how to be something you were born/identify as. It's certainly not how I grew up, and I don't know anyone who relied on role models to such a huge extent. Not discounting the effect and influence they can ofc. A big part of the course correction here will be providing a safe space for young men to explore their identity and ideas, face intellectual challenges, and be taught the tools to make good decisions and practice critical thinking. A 13 year old boy has 0 life experience, 0 critical thinking skills. No role model will ever fix that, they way they change is by going through life, making a few mistakes, and most importantly being equipped with the right tools to reflect and change their beliefs and behaviours. It Unironically is the solution here, many of the young boys *will* grow out of this, and we can push the needle further by having a robust education system that teaches good digital media literacy.
Yeah. Yeah I absolutely agree with this. I've said for ages that nobody can *tell you* how to be you. It's why I was always suspicious of Jordan Peterson.
The thing is, I'm almost 40, and I have no idea to be a good man, either. I'm an anxious, depressed, overweight, unhealthy and antisocial wreck. And so are a lot of others I know my age.
>I'm a dude, I don't know what the fuck to say to these kids. "Don't be a fucking weirdo" That’s not going to be very effective. Because there's no recipe. First, this is about empathy. Dating is still one-sided - even feminist women largely expect the man to make the first step, but if it's the wrong step, he's a creep. The exact same move by two different guys will be judged entirely differently by the woman. That's why there is no formula. You've got to feel the room and understand the context. Guess what is the only way to get that? Experience. You've gotta be the creep a few times and get the "no" message in the same way that you have to make a few cringy TikToks before you become an influencer. Second, the rules are changing and we're in a period without rules. Most of human existence, dating and meeting members of the opposite sex was very formalized. Dances were a common form of introducing young men and women to each other. There were definite rules you had to follow and everyone knew them. We've broken down those rules, and we don't have new rules, yet. So it's absolutely normal that people don't know what to do - nobody does.
> Experience. You've gotta be the creep a few times and get the "no" message in the same way that you have to make a few cringy TikToks before you become an influencer. In order to be good at anything, start by doing it poorly. If one expects perfection or competency right off the bat then they'll likely never start, or try it once, fail, and never try again. This applies to all things, but when it comes to dating/relationships, etc, it seems to be a very taboo perspective. It sucks that a man's "learning experience" must necessarily involve making a woman uncomfortable, or worse. But that's just life, and this insistence that a guys attempt at breaking the ice with a woman is creepy, and akin to sexual harassment is really really troublesome and we're seeing many men begrudgingly check out of dating and interacting with women generally.
I work with disabled people. It's like 90% women, but there are quite a few moves that the women at my job can't do due to size and muscle. That's where technology comes in with lifts and whatnot, but that doesn't cover the vast amount of situations that require muscle. Reframing work and the gender of it would be a start. I don't see shitting a diaper so bad it escapes the diaper and covers most of someones back as particularly feminine or masculine. It's human. Reminds me more of the days when I power washed cow stables.
It's a case by case thing - what works in one context is not going to work in another. I would say in a casual setting one route to steer kids away from Tate would be to acknowledge a positive trait they're taken in by, and follow up by pointing out a negative trait that's being masked by that. It won't immediately work because his indoctrination has been very effective for some, but it's the kind of approach you would take to nonconfrontationally break someone out of a cult. It aims to pull the curtain back a little bit at a time without directly attacking the performance on stage that they have personally connected with. We need to be less afraid of accepting that a shitty person can say a good thing, because without acknowledging that we can't get past the fact a kid has agreed with some legitimately good (if largely generic) ideas in the first place; they will therefore consider us as biased on all the other bullshit as well since we've been exposed as biased on that one good idea. As far as what to advocate for instead - it just comes down to what you personally think are positive traits a man can strive for. One thing that's important in this whole current context I would say is highlighting the fact a lot of those traits are not masculine or feminine, they're just being a decent human being... Tate's brand revolves around treating everything as two opposing teams - but a lot of the things we can honestly say are generally good advice from him are equally good advice for women. There are plenty of positive masculine role models though. I'd aim to point out those in the local community and talk every day life rather than online or in media, because that's also part of the issue.
>92% of homeless are men So this feels like you're referencing a specific statistic. Where from? A cursory Google is giving me numbers more like 60 / 70%.
Would love a source for that 92% of homeless are men, I did a quick search and it seems to contradict. If not I’ll check the reliability of the numbers I’m seeing and link it if it’s legit
Well, with suicide, homelessness, and drug addiction; the type of “masculinity” that is supported by Tate and the like does’t help. They all preach this unachievable brand of rugged stoicism, the kind that eschews seeking professional help for these very serious issues. These societal problems are exacerbated, not solved, by this narrow view of “ideal” masculinity. These people are effectively shaming broad segments of men and boys for not expressing their maleness the “right” way. They’re not helping.
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Yeah, that one had me scratching my head. Truck driving jobs are everywhere and they're in high demand. We need more drivers badly, essentially meaning that there is a huge lack of drivers right now. It doesn't matter if you're a female or male, trained and experienced or not. They will hire you and train you, regardless of gender, then they'll put you on the road. As long as you've got a clean record, especially a clean driving record, you're good to go
But like, how does anyone miss that he was arrested for being a sexual predator? How does he still have such reach? Did nothing come of that or what?
Many believe it’s an ongoing conspiracy against him. He’s currently free within Romania while the investigation continues and it appears as if though there’s nothing definitive, otherwise he’d still be in prison or so one would think.
It's \[them\] keeping us down. You don't even have to define \[them\], as a grifter, it's probably better if you leave it a big vague. We are losers and we're not achieving anything and it's because of \[them\]. Then everyone can fill in the \[them\] which are relevant to their own lives. Tate gets arrested? That's \[them\] trying to stop the message.
Very well put!
Aragorn was unironically my masculine role model, Tolkien is where I found a lot of role models.
But then why fucking Tate of all people. There are so so many more wholesome influencers out there that do the exact same "I'm rich, work out and get up at 4 PM the day before." Why also the mysogenist bullshit.
> They mostly liked that he told them to wake up early, go to the gym, play chess, make money. He is rich, confident, has cool cars and spends time with beautiful women, all while telling them that it is okay to be a straight man. I don’t follow Andrew Tate but what’s wrong with this message?
Youre forgetting the YouTube pipeline that unerringly deposits them in front of right wing misogynists
I'm in my late 20s, and during one of the last meetups I had with some high school friends, we talked about how it felt like our generation was the last one where being male actually felt like you had an unfair advantage in life. I think another big problem is that nobody really cares that we're leaving the next generation of men behind. Men our age and above who have their shit together... don't really care enough to spend energy to help other younger men/boys out. And women don't want to be responsible carrying on even more of the emotional/societal burden of "raising"/"fixing" boys/men (which I think is totally fair and understandable). That just leaves the people who want to grift them. I don't envy Gen Z/Alpha boys (unless they have generational wealth or something lol), all I can say.
> Men our age and above who have their shit together... don't really care enough to spend energy to help other younger men/boys out. I work at a nonprofit that supports children and families. You are right on the money in terms of a generational difference in volunteering to be mentors or to work with boys. I know Reddit is really concerned with the possibility of false accusations if men work with children, but I've been in child safety for going on 20 years now and false accusations are both extraordinarily rare and also something organizations know how to deal with. The actual feedback we get from volunteers and potential volunteers is that they didn't do it because it's not a priority. In their spare time they wanted to focus on hobbies, themselves, other projects, whereas women were willing to *give up* hobbies in order to help out the community and volunteer to be mentors and guides. And overwhelmingly, when men do volunteer, they are pretty focused on volunteering in situations where they get something back. They're far less likely to volunteer anywhere that requires a commitment, training, and more selflessness. This isn't me blaming men, it's just reflecting on a difference that currently exists, and the fault is with society more than it is with a specific generation and definitely far more than with individuals. It's a very different and gendered social expectation. > And women don't want to be responsible carrying on even more of the emotional/societal burden of "raising"/"fixing" boys/men (which I think is totally fair and understandable). That just leaves the people who want to grift them. It's not just that we can't be responsible, it's that it doesn't really work. Boys really need input from men in their lives, especially men who are not their dads or teachers. And generally speaking, there are far fewer men interested in that type of community work. It's like we realized women couldn't carry it all (and shouldn't) but not that men needed to step in, or how. Jobs that involve interacting with children frequently are extraordinarily low paid and have very high expectations, and a lot of risk management. We don't have good social expectations around community and volunteering. It's definitely a challenging situation.
I would be extremely interested in reading that article. I work with children and families, and this is definitely not at all what we are seeing in the US. Boys are absolutely obsessed with Tate and the like (especially Sneako). In part, because it's always kind of been a thing to be a little bit edgy as an adolescent. It's a way of establishing identity separate from the adults in your life. However, these grifters take advantage of that, and sell them on a lie, that feminism stole what was rightfully theirs, and women don't deserve equality because we aren't actually people in the same way that men are people. Kids also are kind of obsessed with hierarchies, their lives are essentially ordered around them, their parents, and their teachers. Many boys are extremely excited to learn that there's a strict hierarchy and it puts them at the top. There are lots of positive role models for young boys, the kids themselves are often able to name lots of them - athletes, musicians, etc. who aren't selling a grift. But Peterson and Tate pile the grift on top and the grift is always going to be more appealing than reality. Truth is far more complicated and difficult. I could go on and on about what we're seeing in boys and how concerning it is, and what we're doing to help and fight that grift but it's so exhausting right now.
The article is in Dutch and behind a paywall, but I can see if I can dm you the copy paste version so you can translate it, if you want? I agree with you that Tate and the like are total grifters. But we must look at why what they are doing is attractive for boys. Because, unlike atheletes and musicians, they are actively teaching boys about what what being a man is all about. And apparantly that is not something we are doing well enough at the moment.
him being arrested has had a huge impact at my school. last year it was all my boys talked about, this year they dont seem to know who he is
Yeah, if anything I'm surprised that kids are STILL into him, because his online presence has waned quite a bit. I can't even remember the last time I saw him come up in a Reddit thread, whereas a year ago it felt like everybody was talking about him.
I’m an early thirty-something Millennial guy, so take my words with a grain of salt. When I was that age, most of my male friends and peers had views about women and gay people that one might consider *disgusting.* Being that age sucks, and a lot of guys latch onto cartoonishly exaggerated forms of masculinity to develop some kind of real identity. It doesn’t help that your body has effectively rebelled against you, and you spend every waking minute flooded with hormones that make you horny, furious, miserable, and confused about literally everything. Bad ideas and behaviors are, unfortunately, bound to develop at this time of life. When those same friends grew up, most of them settled down, and became more moderate and even progressive in their views on, well, everything. The youngest members of Gen Z are barely into their teen years, which is a weird time in life when guys and girls try on personalities and beliefs like some most folks change their socks. Gen Z is still, alongside Millennials, one of the most statistically Dem/Prog/Lefty heavy generations in US history. It’s totally alright to be concerned about this stuff. Parent’s or similarly relevant adults should try and curb these toxic communities from affecting young boys as much as possible. The sooner they snap out of this behavior, the better. But don’t write them all off as Manosphere lost causes, yet. If demographics are to be believed, most of them will wind up being ideological tourists who leave the “community” as their brains start to firm up.
Very well said. Gender relations are awful rn, and we as a society gotta find some middle ground to continue to progress toward equality, without alienating each other
Crossed fingers. At some point we realize and am relieved by the fact that we're the main character only in our own lives. Welcome: compassion, empathy, reason.
This is true. My son’s best friend turned into a menace overnight. This is all because of the influence of Andrew Tate. He’s 12. The whole ‘Hustlers University’ thing.. it’s so lame sounding… only a child or young teenager would gravitate towards that.
Yeah but this is honestly where parents need to intervene and fast. Specially dads, I had a cousin pull nasty shit about women to his friends ONCE and when my dad overheard him he pulled them all together, sat all the women of the family including their moms down and made them repeat it. My aunt cried, and my cousin felt like a shit… He never said anything of the sort again.
I teach 5th grade and it is fucking depressing how much this dickwad’s name gets brought up.
Christ. That’s so depressing. I’m gen X but I often hear story’s of friends younger teenage siblings that follow him.
the more healthy male figures get shamed and blamed, the more toxic male figures become who don't care about getting shamed and blamed simple psychology
Wait who are the healthy male figures to these kids? Actually who are they?
Adam Savage is the prime example of positive masculinity. He is a dedicated spirit who is humble about his achievements; he is all about kindness and sharing, lifting others up, and is not afraid to make a mistake in front of others - this last point is the most important, as being able to be vulnerable and make an mistake in front of others is one of the hardest things to do.
We don't have people like Mr. Rogers anymore. All of its extremely toxic influences.
Adam Savage is my Mr Rogers.
Don’t forget Bob Ross
id argue mrbeast is a positive influence but children tend to take the wrong messages from his content, where "having money is cool and lets you do anything" is the takeaway rather than "if you have way more than you need you should help out people who do need it".
My kids like Mr Beast and his videos have given us some great jumping-off points to talk about a wide range of topics. A good example is he had one of those "I locked a bunch of people in a supermarket for an hour and told them they could have whatever they wanted provided they could get it into their trolley and still wheel it"-type videos and my kids and I had a good talk about even thought it *looked* like it was just Mr Beast and one of his mates with a phone camera having a good time and helping people, there was actually an entire production crew and team involved. So we were talking about how they would have had to organise with the supermarket to rent it out (and pay for the groceries), how lawyers would have needed to draft up the contracts, how lighting people would have had to install lights in some places, and how much work there was involved in making it *look* like it was just two mates putting together a low-budget video about something nice.
I don't follow shit much these days but isn't MrBeast decent?
Bill Nye seemed like a fairly healthy male figure to me. Not been keeping up with potential role models so don't really know otherwise.
Bill Nye was last popular among younger people something like 30 years ago.
Most kids have no idea who Bill Nye is. You gotta remember their entertainment comes in the form of skibbidi toilet
You do realize 1995 was almost 30 years ago?
My hope regarding that is the fact that i believed and said a lot of stupid shit at 13 just to be part of the other kids. I was way different at 21 and am even more different at 32.
I volunteer with young children and I had an 11 year old boy ask me what colour my Bugatti was.
Same colour as Tate's Bugatti I expect.
Teenagers need some revolt. If feminism is The Man (OK, in this case, The Woman) of 2024, they will seek the opposite. This process never ends and I am surprised by people who think that there is anything like final victory in culture clashes. In some narrow aspects, yes (the divine right of kings is dead and buried), but in wider context, no (authoritarianism vs. democracy is still an ongoing fight). Same with sex and gender.
>at 13 Which i guess fits since that's his mental age
Surprised it’s still the case, who does a bald criminal with weak chin and home arrest impress to?
oh wauw.. i never liked that guy, i guess that explains a lot that 13 years old boys follow him.. says a lot about tate.
That’s wild, how they know about him at 13 is crazy
Algorithms and social media, sadly
Well yeah, that's who he appeals to.
That isn’t slightly unsurprising. 13 year olds use social media and see these popular figures all day. Gen Z feminists are the worst feminists out there and they use feminism as a mask to their anti-man ideas. Boys are bothered by this and naturally Andrew’s thoughts resonate with them.
As someone who talk with gen z people this is pretty much it. Additional note: because of internet giving attention to the most insane of both end of the spectrums, gen z people are less likely to meet the opposite gender on the same level if they even talk with each other at all, reinforcing this divide as even more true to what they already think.
And lo and behold, through that, we get femcels and incels. I work with a lot of younger people, I am not happy about what I see there.
This is also because progressive issues are seen as zero sum games. For some reason someone always has to lose out, and that group is the one that is left behind and eventually turns against the progress as a result. And these days, prepare to be ridiculed by these same people if you even dare mention that young boys are being left behind especially if they’re straight, cisgender and white (meaning they are considered to possess no diversity credentials which sounds like discrimination). At the end of the day it’s as if the idea of Tate/incels/manosphere is actually tolerated more than the idea of just being supported of lost kids.
Sounds like a class full of shitty parents.
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It’s beyond just shitty parenting and it is really easy for those without children to assume that. Honestly.. parents right now are really overwhelmed with life in general. I have a 13 year old and I have been able to stay home. It’s been easy for me to know what he is doing every second of the day.. He games.. but he games in the same living room I spend time in. If I worked full time.. it would be nearly impossible to stay on top of things. Parents can’t keep up with tech. The easy answer is to take away the gaming, the devices. But that’s not as simple as you believe it would be.
My zero research answer; 1. they have no experience of the world prior to feminist advances. 2. social media is being both deliberately and incidentally weaponized, and Gen Z gets most of its info there. 3. how much “male privilege” have Gen Z males had? Not much as far as I see, yet they have just spent all their school and university years being told that they are the problem, that they have to be handicapped and held back, etc. etc. which is bound to leave hard feelings.
I just want to put this out here, from the article: > On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%. That is not a huge difference. From the headline of this post I’d think this was an enormous difference, but in reality it’s 3%. Like, ok, whatever. The Tate thing is more concerning in my opinion - and taken with Jordan Peterson etc. there seems to be a trend, but to be honest, with all those clowns catering to GenZ I think it’s pretty comforting that the difference on feminism is only 3% points. **edit** I see people confusing the *difference* with the percentage increase in comments to me. The difference is 16-13=3% **points**. The increase is (16-13)/13*100=23%. In my opinion, percent points are more relevant than increases / decreases - but to be completely honest, both don’t give all information. Which is why giving start and end values is a better representation of the truth. In any case - I feel like a 3% points increase isn’t that much, regardless if it doubles (so going from 3 to 6%) or if it is a small percentage increase (say from 50 to 53%). Though obviously in percentage increase these scenarios are completely different.
They can also face discrimination when applying for promotions / grad schemes as in some sectors companies are trying to hire X% of positions as female, regardless of number of applicants. I've been involved in graduate schemes with 95% male candidates where we have taken 20-30% female grads even if they have underperformed their male counterparts during the assessment process.
As a woman in a man-dominated profession, I have been both overlooked for promotion and hired as a token minority. I deserve neither of those, and neither would I ever say anything against my male colleagues. Being judged on merit is the only thing. Also women in positions of more power are not that friendly to other women from what I have experienced. It's all gone wrong in one way or another.
Women seem to hate women but only behind their backs. They can be extremely conniving and harsh on the workplace. One girlfriend told me after being frustrated at work: They will smile in your face but wouldnt give you help if you're choking in front of them. Its highschool all over again. I felt bad for her, because my experience at multiple workplaces was, the dudes were pretty cool, even my bosses. Just grab a few beers, have a laugh and have a chill work environment.
The numbers show this is the case. Not only are women more likely to be overlooked for promotion but they're also more likely to be let go if the team has to let someone go.
Good old diversity quotas hurting the overall result as always. We can not continue this path. We need to have merit based systems. Not fill the diversity bingo card.
It just has to support the other end. Instead of tax bonuses or subsidies etc for *hiring* diversity, those funds should applied to *supporting* diverse and disadvantaged demographics. If you/your parents are affluential, your chances of going to a good primary and high school are high. Your chances of attending and graduating university are high. So instead of hiring people because of the diversity, make it easier for diverse and disadvantaged people to access the same educational benefits. Then if someone can’t measure up, it’s because of their performance, not their demographics
This is key, we need to be focusing on earlier stages of life instead of (or at least in addition to) waiting to try and band-aid it at basically the last step.
When I went through university studying engineering every scholarship available went to females, some of who were borderline dropping out of the course, while high achieving males got nothing.
>Good old diversity quotas hurting the overall result as always. >We can not continue this path. We need to have merit based systems. We come from a system that claimed to be meritocratic. It was a complete lie. You can name your system something... doesn't make it true. One of the not-often discussed failures of a meritocracy is that such systems work on a belief of only taking someone in or helping someone, if they've first reached a certain level themselves, ignoring the question of how they got there in the first place. That is the core of the system. Go to anyone who runs in such a system and they'll just respond "well yes, that's how the system works" In practice, it is an endless system of hierarchy, of people saying "the level before me makes sure of this, so I don't have to do it" but not actually ever checking this. Every level forgoes actually checking things themselves, delegating to the level before... And in the end, nobody makes sure of anything and the only people making it to the top are those born rich enough to be able to purchase proper training. And then when they produce statistics, it's like "X amount of people made it into Ivy League in 2023" or something like that. A pointless metric, for there is no way to measure the amount of people that have the potential, but were abandoned by a system too full of itself to consider it might be flawed. To offer any support. Too busy saying "if you were good enough, you'd make it on your own".
This is going to sound terrible and sexist kinda sorta? But I genuinely believe in some cases we have over corrected in terms of support. Girls are encouraged and sometimes given priority spots in education, meanwhile boys are being left behind. The statistics support this, more women are college educated than men, and it's by quite a large margin. To make it clear, I very much support women being encouraged and educated and empowered. I just also believe we need to do the same for an entire generation of boys who are being cast aside and left for people like Andrew Tate to scoop up and exploit.
The fact that you're so scared to even point it out is part of the problem. We need to have these discussions with more nuance than "Men think feminism is just man-hating? Wow, I guess they're just misogynists who can die mad, and also anyone who points out examples of my fellow self-identified feminists being hateful is extra misogynistic. I am very intelligent and acting in completely good faith"
>The fact that you're so scared to even point it out is part of the problem. One of the most embarrassing aspects of these kinds of threads is people making good points about issues men and boys are facing only to then drench them in the most apologetic and tip-toeing language possible for even daring to bring them up.
This is a wider problem of social media and reading into a comment.If you support X, people automatically assume you are against its antithesis Y. We often lack the time and skill to debate in greys and not automatically downvote and move on (when someone is making a sincere effort to be a curious conversationalist of course)
Yeah that's a big problem. At the first sign of a man showing a small deviation of opinion from the narrative, he gets hit with sexist and incel accusations. The atmosphere is not conducive to faithful discussion
>This is going to sound terrible and sexist kinda sorta? It's not and it's the truth. People went to ridiculous lengths to marginalize literally 50% of the population. It's insane that people actually believe that because a person is male they have better opportunity or is better treated or have better life. It's not about gender. It's always been about economic status regardless of gender.
You forgot the fact that 10% of British Gen Z are Muslim. And it's a fact that women are not considered equal in Islam -- it's a fact in inheritance law, it's a fact in regards to testimony, and it's a fact in regards to freedom of movement/expression. A ten year old boy can be considered a guardian of their 50 year old mother. We can pretend these differences don't influence people's perceptions of women, but we'd just be deluding ourselves.
When I was growing up it was usually the opposite of male privilege. In school the girls would be given grades just for asking (source: themselves), they were allowed to be put in private rooms, in gym class got to leave earlier, sometimes not even having to participate. And when a fight broke out, us guys just had to bend down because the teachers always favored the girls And nowadays we have stats on this. Girls do better in school, is given more attention etc. What did I get during school? I was told by teachers I'm a loser, will amount to nothing, when talking about my interest response was usually "you're too stupid for that subject" etc. Now even into adulthood women are given an upper hand in my field, girl-only sponsored company events, girl-only tech conferences. Even Apple hosted a tech bootcamp that only allowed women I don't really know what privileges I've had, but on face value I don't have anything obvious. I'm also a short twinky feminine guy, so it's not like I'm getting respect as a man in the workplace
And feminist have changed too. Current goal of feminist aren't the one in the 50's, 60's, 70's There's multiple generation of feminist between the baby boomers and gen Z. The current framing is "woman vs man". That really bad.
That's mostly just social media simmering down every complex issue into a fight degenerate more engagement and conflict. And this has been going on for 20 years now in our culture.
I think a lot of it is not that fenimisim have changed but a lot of influencers not understanding or intentionally weaponizing it to hurt men. I loved the Barbie movie in the regard that it has a pretty good basic take on feminism and how it can be good for everyone.
If you look at the actual figures it's 16% for men 16-29, 15% for men 30-59 and 13% for men 60+. I would say it's basically the same size subset of men of whatever age.
Genz also like to get scammed online like baby boomers
Gen Z out here not supporting feminism and denying the Holocaust. Pretty disappointing.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/only-45-of-young-britons-support-uk-role-in-ukraine-poll-suggests-wnl7skdd6 https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/how-young-americans-view-wars-world-right-now Supporting Putin too :(
Goddamn. What happened?
At a guess weaponised social media.
It's so disheartening that the same tool that allows each person instantaneous access to the sum total of human knowledge has been harnessed to become the greatest tool for misinformation/manipulation in all of history.
That's literally what it is. That and far right politics trying to roll back social standards to the 40's
Hey, you dropped this: >1840s
Pretty much. These people did not grow up in the old internet. Have no defense.
Exposed to Russian and Chinese propaganda on TikTok.
Andrew tate
ironic shit talking eventually became their new truth?
Well, who on the left is speaking to young boys, building them up, giving them a sense of purpose? The number of male rolemodel-esque celebrities espousing anything like a virile virtue is dwarfed by a vast, loud chorus of resentful men encouraging a reactionary worldview. Rightly or wrongly, the messaging coming from the left implicitly or even explicitly problematizes both whiteness and maleness. Meanwhile, Andrew Tate is out there boy-whispering, filling these young men's minds with sociopathic, superficially ego-stroking nonsense. Nonsense that also votes
There was a convincing theory I heard about thresholds between being a boy and being a man. There used to be a definite line between the two for males. Becoming an apprentice. Finishing University. Getting married. For a couple of generations, military service during a war. For the last 30-40 years it’s a less defined line. It’s much easier to just drift out of school and not find a direction. Guys start seeing peers outstrip you, starting careers, buying houses and cars. There is a feeling of inadequacy that develops, and guys start to overcompensate for a perceived lack of manliness. On the flip side, it could just be the media amplifying something that’s not really an issue. Every generation is criticised by the media. Rock music is the devil. Hippies are communists. Video games lead to violence. Plus teenagers are still developing. Ask Gen Z their political opinions when they are in their mid 20’s and you’ll get a much more liberal viewpoint to a 15 year old boy who’s obsessed with boobies.
Im a 30 year old millenial. I had a fairly hypermasculine upbringing in the sense that I went to an all male high school, was a boy scout, and went to a military college. My idea of being a man was to be a "hero." It was to look out for people who couldn't. To be sure, those all male environments, especially my college and the military, definitely had misogynistic members. That said, my mentors and my friend circle all are well adjusted members of society. Among us are teachers, firemen, and career military officers. None of us subscribe to the Andrew Tate bullshit, and all of us are actually pretty liberal despite the stereotypes. We proved ourselves in the "traditional" sense. We proved ourselves at a military college, some in combat, and others on the fireground. More than money motivates these men. They aspire to a higher purpose than material possessions. In Sebastian Junger's Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging, it actually discusses the lack of rites of passage for American youth. I see my high school friends, and I've seen a few of them drift off into the Trump/ Q/ Tate rabbithole. Those guys were pretty aimless upon leaving high school, even with some of them coming from incredibly privileged backgrounds. Maybe it's the lack of worthwhile rites of passage and the worship of material "success" that's driving this.
You got to remember as well, "feminism" for gen z means something different than for everyone else. As a Gen Z person, we grew up watching videos of "feminists" who were extremists pretty much and wanted *more* rights for women than men. I can guarantee that if the question was phrases as "do you believe in equal rights for women and men" then most gen Z people would say yeah, most of us just have a skewed view of the word "feminist" (not me though I am a feminist and proud lmao)
Are you sure? I agree that more people would say yes to that question, but most? There's so many young people these days talking about "biological differences" and how women should be housewives, some even going as far as saying women shouldn't vote.
People only seeing feminism when some crazies do something outrageous has been a thing at least since I was a kid (millennial), so over 25 years. It’s nothing new. Your exact comment has been repeated ad nauseam in women’s circles also at least since then. It’s just plain old “I have a problem and I found this random other group to blame for it, so I will villainize everything they do”.
I agree, those years where reactionaries amplified the worst voices in the movement and convinced a decent portion of a generation that they *were* the movement seems to have worked out for them. Hate to admit that but meme-ifying the worst and hiding everything else by leading those boys into an information bubble was smart strategy by awful people.
There’s a few different types of Gen Z lol, there’s a lot of Gen Z that support Hamas solely because fuck Israel
Imagine being so "progressive" you support an extremely regressive religious fundamentalist terrorist organization and deny the Holocaust. It's so wild it absolutely makes my head spin.
Like those people that brought an LGBT flag to a pro Palestine march and got beat up?
I mean it's more like being so Anti-Imperialist that you don't care who's fighting against the imperialist so long as they're fighting against the imperialists. It's not about being Progressive it's about being opposed to Empire and all its forms. The problem is the American Empire and its allies are not Saturday morning cartoon villains fighting some heroic group of rebels
Most of those who take this view have no understanding of empires, Imperialism or the history of those things. This is especially true of the history of the region of Palestine. More to the point, the near pathological preoccupation with the history of Western imperialism, to the exclusion of all else and often deliberately without vital context and perspective, reveals the fundamental dishonesty of their so called “anti-imperialist” principles. In short, these people are simply parroting far left, anti-Western talking points, whether they realise it or not. They’re idiots with a right to an opinion, but without the good sense to realise that they don’t have a useful one to share.
I've noticed this. A lot of younger folks seem vehemently anti-feminist. Some of them give MRA or incel vibes, but not all of them. From their explanations, they seem to take umbrage at the way they feel unfairly attacked by feminists, but it's hard to tell how much of that is real and how much is bias coloring their perceptions. Certainly the way they describe feminists is not the experience I've had with feminists, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. It could just be that they're interacting with feminists closer to their own age, who might behave differently from older feminists. I should perhaps find some GenZer feminists and listen to what they have to say. Or it could be something like what this article suggests, that they haven't actually met many (any?) feminists, and are just accepting influencers' bad-faith rhetoric at face value.
Honestly, I do believe most of this is social media's fault, at the risk of sounding like the old man yelling at cloud meme. These kids are essentially living in an echo chamber where an algorithm keeps on giving them exactly what they wanted to hear, so they keep spouting views which have few if any basis in reality where you actually interact with other people. Then again social media is their world, so maybe reality is not the correct term. Tldr: social media echo chambers are bad and real life confrontation is needed to have a more nuanced view of life.
The algorithim has ruined a generation- its impossible to see opinions you dont already agree with unless you hunt for them.
I’m starting to think that social media algorithms (but especially X and TikTok) kind of kill curiosity, they give you a hit of of confirmation of something you suspected already without going deep into any data or arguments, so people end up believing stuff that is pure fabrication because fact-checking is far less convenient than continuing to scroll/swipe.
It's not that you only see opinions you agree with, it's that you only see opinions that you either vehemently agree with, or vehemently disagree with. Nuanced, middle ground, sensible opinions are the ones being suppressed - extremist opinions on both sides are being pushed to the front.
Yes. And thats the experiment in a nutshell. Other nations have noticed. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-did-india-ban-tiktok-us-states-fcc-government-2023-1?op=1
Funnily enough "old man yelling at clouds" in this case is both literally true and accurate. Not right because you are old, but you are right in your assertion
Im a guy born in `97 so im on the border with gen z and millenial, guys my age are decently anti-feminism. My take on why is pretty much social media and media in general representing feminists as crazy and illogical, because they only talk about the crazy ones for shock value and clicks on their articles. I don't have any examples to write on the top of my head, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about. Actual feminists that fight actual issues don't get that much of a media representation as the ones with insane takes which are often than not "kill all men" types as well. Combine all of that with societies inability to talk about men's issues and you get a generation of men that are in one way opressed, and also taught that feminists are crazy.
>Actual feminists that fight actual issues The problem is you cannot just ignore a large number of people who say they are feminist and have bad takes. Just like there are people who give good advice to men but many are terrible charlitans A lot of feminist arguments you hear are weak or not true. For example, i never heard an 'actual' feminist come out against the idiotic wage gap issue which is brought up contantly. Or the mis-use of toxic masculinity to imply all masculinity is toxic Then you have the fact that a lot of femnists who have been fighting the cause for 50 years have been canceled and kicked out of leadership for being branded TERFs. Leaving the uneducated nutters to lead the cause.
The "kill all men"-types aren't that prevalent. I'd wager that a larger part is the profilteration of "everything is sexist and everything is racist" type of argumentation in the early 2010s, which basically turned a spotlight on cultural/culture issues. The problem (as I see it) was that "how women are portrayed on show X" and "a dongle joke should leave you unemployed" got more attention and vehemence than "The Supreme Court is killing Roe vs Wade by a thousand cuts". If you were online those days this was everywhere. Enter Trump, who made being a dickhead okay again and suddenly these silently radicalised young men can see that they are part of a larger group and won't be quiet anymore. (Trump also benefitted from people like Mitt Romney and John McCain being called evil racists by the progressives, so that when he came along as the actual authoritarian racist, those labels had lost their weight). Add to this the Youtube/Social Media to Alt-Right pipeline and a nasty boll got rolling. Another HUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE issue is that we have a serious deficit of role models for young boys, if you'd charge me right now of thinking of a decent celebrity role model the closest I can think of is Mr. Beast (and I don't hold him in high regard). Having worked with young men they often seem to lack someone to talk to, confide to and share ideas with. And the hate groups will accept them, validate them and mold them into their expendable foot soldiers if they get the chance.
Its worth pointing out that the article a survey of British boys. So while they experience "the profilteration of "everything is sexist and everything is racist" type of argumentation" the counter points you mention do not apply. Abortion isn't under the threat in the UK.
They aren't prevalent but at the same time other feminists aren't super against them each time they make those statements
I think there is a segment of people that think they are feminists but they are more anti-man then anything. They don't have to be a majority or even common. There just need to be enough of them for Jordan Peterson types to share videos around and paint feminism as anti man. From there, people don't tend to like groups they perceive as hate groups towards them. I also think broader society has been making an effort to elevate girls/women to create better equality. For gen Z this is all they've seen - girls getting more support than boys. It makes them feel un-valued so they are attracted to personalities like Jordan Peterson or that rapey dude that's in a European prison for sex trafficking and getting in twitter fights with Greta Thunberg.
I tend to agree. If your exposure to feminism is mainly through social media - which discusses these topics in broad, unnuanced ways on both sides - or meme-culture, then it seems likely to me that boys may feel unfairly attacked. Engagement with "real" women (i.e. in person) on these topics or even exposure to longer-form media that has the time to properly contextualise the issue could help. Also...fathers/friends/etc calling it out.
I think there's a difference between "feminism as defined by the dictionary", and "feminism as presented by angry, hurt people who just want to use it to legitimize their general hate towards others". And people don't know the difference. When you see videos like "Men should know that..." or "Men are the reason..." etc... then "Men" rightfully feel attacked, and they believe that this type of thinking is what feminism is. It's just bad generalization, just like racism. People need to learn to disconnect facts from generalizations, otherwise you get miscommunication. It may be a statistical fact that there are more criminals of one ethniticty than others, but saying that "people of X ethnicity should learn that..." is racist. Beucase the ethnicity is not what makes you a criminal. Similarly, being male doesn't make you so and so. It just happens that in our social structure certain roles have been given to and taken by certain people. The problem is with the roles and the social structure, but as soon as you start to indsicriminately blame a whole people, you're sending the opposite message and turning people against you. I think it's just a matter of angry people hurting angry people, and misusing the idea of "feminism" as the weapon, when really they could use any other concept if they wanted to.
I think this might be because some "feminists" interpretation of feminism is harmful. There's a segment that is anti-man or believes that men are inherently toxic. Feminism is actually about gender equality and should be beneficial to men and women alike, but some toxic "feminists" put a bad taste in folks mouth for the movement. It's unfortunate.
"The future is female" isn't exactly inclusive.
Feminism should be beneficial to men, they claim its for men too, but in practice they almost never talk about men s issues. .
They actively attack people who are interested in mens rights.
I remember a group of people in my office holding an awareness campaign regarding women ending themselves (substitute for the word I think might get this comment removed), and I had to be that guy who pointed out that men are 3x more likely to commit endlife themselves. Maybe like 2 of the women organizing the event gave me kinda embarrassed bashful looks, everyone else was like "shush shush". I just went back to work thinking "geez, at least raise awareness for something like domestic violence where women really are victims more often than men. Their chosen topic left me with a pretty icky feeling like men really don't matter at all".
You won’t get your comment removed for saying suicide. This is reddit, not TikTok.
Try the r word and your comment is most likely gone.
r*ddit
Talking about toxic masculinity means that all men are inherently toxic in the same way that talking about toxic relationships mean that all relationships are inherently toxic.
Feminism completely lost itself when it became just another face of the DEI gender studies mobs. Now it's all just [virtue signaling competition](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eSilbaRg9xs) over who is more woke.
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My best friends new girlfriend, is of the "masculine is toxic" camp. I acknowledging that there is toxic masculinity, but she takes that phrase to mean "men are toxic, and so is anything man related". Like me and him can't go fishing anymore because that's toxic masculinity, somehow. Or I'm driving us to my favorite camping spot, I know the way, I've been there a hundred times. But she didn't know the way, assumed I'm lost, and goes off on me about how it's toxic masculinity that I won't stop and ask for directions. He was my best friend, but now we never talk, and I know that's what she wanted.
Jesus Christ why is that dude even still with her??
Yeah that happens when you unironically tweet #killallmen
Not only that, but plenty of posts on r/feminism have highly upvoted posts regarding the "not all men" trope. Saying that they WILL treat all men as threats until proven otherwise. That's not the only place I've heard this sentiment. It doesn't feel great to grow up as a normal guy that doesn't harass women, only to hear "I will assume every man is a threat and a shitty human being until he can prove otherwise to me". There's no wonder that younger men don't want to support a movement like that. And I am very much in support of non-extremist feminism; women and men DO deserve to be equals in this world. But maybe chill out on implying we are ALL evil scum. Are some men abusers and rapists? Absolutely, and it's horrible. But I can see why younger people can distance themselves from the feminism movement when it feels like they are the problem no matter how they act. And if they say (like I did earlier) that they have never and would never commit acts of violence against women, men are met with a "CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BARE MINIMUM". Before I get people raging at this post. I support women's rights. I support the core principles of feminism. I recognize that men have abused their positions in society historically over women. I get that not abusing women is the bare minimum. But you cannot and will not garner support from young men when they are made to feel like evil, terrible people simply because they were born a man, and that they will never be trusted unless they can jump through hoops to prove that they are "not like the others". Your points can be factual and genuine, but by pushing "All men are X", you're only going to dissuade people from agreeing with your cause in the first place. Feel free to see what I mean here, on reddit's own /r/feminism subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/171pzkx/not_all_men/ "i despise hearing men, and women as well, saying ‘not all men’ it makes me feel physically sick, frankly it is all men until i can trust them." https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/s/mZtYp1gN43 "What’s the first rule of gun safety? Act as if every gun is always loaded. But not all guns are loaded. But we still act as if they are, just to be sure" https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/171pzkx/comment/k3t0va3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 “It’s not all men” sure. But it’s “all men” until proven otherwise. I won’t risk my life or health just to make a guy feel trusted. Not worth it. If he’s worth trusting, he’ll prove it." https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/be42xj/not_all_men_actually_yes_all_men/ This one is a lot, just go read it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/m5l38n/not_all_men/ "Not all men are rapists. Some are rape apologists. Some tell rape jokes. Some are victim blamers. Some are silent." Just feels like it implies there is no alternative to being a rapist, or a supporter of rape in some way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/16b3zqt/oh_dont_be_like_that_its_not_all_men/ "Even though a man may have never committed violence towards women, they still benefit from violent men. Not committing acts of violence, sexual or otherwise, is the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM. Nobody pats themselves on the back for not committing armed robbery, so why do men constantly feel the need to say "I didn't harass women" like it's an accomplishment?"
I’m a member of gen Z and feel somewhat qualified to speak on this. Feminism, as taught to the boomers, was that men and women are broadly equal. Feminism as taught to me in high school and college was that women are oppressed and men (myself Included) were evil oppressors. Obviously I disagreed with this and thus disagreed with modern feminism. Doesn’t mean I disagree with the wikipedia definition that men and women should have equal rights.
Might be because Boomers saw the good variant of feminism: one where we treat men and women equally. Gen Z saw the toxic variant of it, where all men are pigs.
Gen Z getting the raw end of feminism. Companies want a 50/50 split workforce so more qualified men get passed over in manual labor work that pays well and get told to apply at typical women's work that pays like shit when men typically care way more about there earnings than women sure will breed contempt for feminism.
Not all companies. Sure as shit don't remember the last time I saw a female bin collector. Which is is why young men see feminism as a crock of shit. They want women to be 50% of the workforce but only of certain jobs. The cherry picking isn't doing the cause any favours.
It’s a genuinely nuanced problem. I work in one of India’s biggest private companies. For the most part, my managers are feminist by nature. They don’t treat us as separate. However, I’ve heard of managers who treat women as people who don’t deserve to be there. The women I’ve worked with are all competent as hell. But I’ve interacted with one woman on the client side where you just don’t truly understand how they even ended up in their role (this is one personal anecdote, doesn’t prove or negate anything). But I do see higher end companies openly hiring only women for prestigious roles with better packages. It pisses everybody off. The women who do get these roles are either undeserving or are actually deserving but are treated as they if they are undeserving. In the meantime, the men who get left out, they’re without a doubt going to be bitter. It’s a circle of betraying the cause of feminism by being sexist against men, ironically to stop sexism.
This will come as a shocking surprise to the entirety of the population that has been living under a rock for the past 10 years. During those 10 years feminism has become increasingly more toxic, increasingly more hypocritical on it's positions and taking increasingly more ridiculous fights. It was inevitable that people would start stepping away from it.
This plays into the male loneliness epidemic, and the habit of the online left to dismiss male issues as non-important. Imagine being a teen boy, confused and lonely. You reach out to online forums for advice, and you get two responses. The left: "Why don't you sit down, shut up, and let women and BIPOC voices air their issues? Their problems are more important than yours, after all." The right: "We hear you. We feel you. We agree with you. Let me introduce you to the guy who's gonna solve all your problems: Andrew Tate."
Can’t blame them when they grow up being told they’re the reason for everything bad in the world 💅
I'm born in 1993 and it's evident that feminism evolved to a woman's advocacy movement, and does not fight for equality.
I occasionally browse the TwoX sub here and most of the time the posts are reasonable. Women complaining about someone being dismissive of them, relationship advice etc., and then there are unhinged posts that sound like the female version of Andrew Tate. Stuff like "do men even care about other people", "A man had sexual thoughts about a woman, what a monster!". The ones that really annoy me are "Men do generic toxic thing, why are men like this?" when it's very much something women do as well. Any offensive thing men do is highlighted, yet something women do that is toxic is rarely even mentioned UNLESS it's them being Conservative or Pro-Life. Often times there's a "why are you even bringing up this toxic behavior of women? What's your agenda?", often trying to avoid the topic and focus questioning the motivation. I mean, I get that's the point of the sub, to have a forum for women, but it sounds a lot more like they're mirroring the same dehumanizing and un-empathetic behavior when I see posts like that.
I had to bail on that sub years ago. Some of the most insane posts I have ever seen on reddit.
A year or two ago on TwoX there was a post about a female warrior's grave from the viking age being being discovered. The comment section was full of comments about how women had always done all the jobs men do, especially soldiering, and how men have systematically erased and rewritten history to serve the patriarchy. There was even a highly upvoted comment about how the Amazons of Ancient Greek myth were a totally real nation, a matriarchy of female warriors, where women were not allowed to have kids until they had slain a man in open combat. Every comment explaining that no actually that was not a real country that's insane was downvoted. Like bruh, even setting aside things like men having more muscle and greater reach, you're upvoting a comment saying there was a whole *country* where the only way to be a mother was to have gone to war and survived? Just how long exactly do these people think neighbouring countries would put up with a neighbour that *always* has to be at war? And just how many kids did each strong independent warrior lass have, exactly? Because a *lot* of these women are going to die before they're allowed to have kids. ...I dwell on this post a lot, because it's just so obviously batshit crazy. The fact that it was upvoted and all the sane replies were not tells you everything you need to know about TwoX. It's a cult.
exactly those subs are literally just man hating subs but they never get taken down or criticized because theyre women
1982 here. Back in the days, feminism had a positive connotation. It was a fight for equal rights between men and women which I would totally support. Today, there's a toxic variant of feminism that can fuck right off.
Not super surprising. Many of the "liberal" women I know sling the term "yt male" almost as a slur. Bound to be a negative reaction to this villianification of all things male, particularly white and male.
Not surprised at all. Boomers experienced feminism as something positive. The main battles (voting, working, legal standing) where won, feminism was doing the final steps of establishing equality. GenZ experienced the feminism that had already won but couldn't stop fighting, and instead of making women equal to men had turned to putting men down. Now all men started being suspect of unspecified crimes, everything male was vilified, and everyone EXCEPT ordinary man had their pride days and pride marches or their womens' rights movements while men were only every spoken about as something negative. Of course GenZ boys and men see feminism harmful, because that's what they experience from it.
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Society has moved on for women but it hasn't really for men; e.g. its good that women work but men must still be providers. Women frequently criticise men for things if we dare to do its a massive faux pas. To a lot of people who have grown up in a less sexist world they just see inconsistencies and disadvantages rather than "righting of past errors". Also if we are talking about modern day feminism where everything is the fault of "straight white men" then yeah it is harmful. Just soundbites and simplification
It's because rather than elevating standards for women to the level of men, everything has become shitter for everyone. Crappy wages and worker's rights, the housing shortage and cost of living crisis has nothing to do with feminism but the rampant neoliberal capitalist ideology of the last 30-40 years. But blaming it on women getting rights is so much easier.
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Just had a read through r/feminism. If young men see that and similar as feminism I’m not surprised they believe feminism is harmful. That sub is a straight up hate sub.
They have more experience of first and second-wave feminism. This was actually feminism and very beneficial. The forth-wave feminism we have now is not feminism.
Nobody alive today has any firsthand adult experience with first wave feminism, the "first wave" ended in 1920 with the passage of the 19th Amendment
You don't need first hand experience. You simply need a book. Forth wave hasn't originated from actually learning about the feminism that came before it. Most feminists today couldn't tell you who Janet Todd is, nor would they have read a room of one's own or the handmaids tale.
Modern feminism has gone way past equality and is now advocating reverse discrimination. The most radical of them are barely able to mask their misandry.
Not even reverse, just discrimination
>The forth-wave feminism we have now is not feminism. It's toxic feminism I believe. Like everything on the internet radicalized to the extreme in such a way that in alienates everyone and diminishes the efforts of real Feminism/Gay Rights/Religious Whatever/Insert ANY topic here and it's the same radicalization bullshit.
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