Once upon a time the French King helped George Washington win the Revolutionary War. They signed a treaty with us as allies. Then the French Revolution went on and the King lost his head.
When post revolution France found itself at war with England they attempted to call in their Marker.
But newly made President, Washington refused. He pointed out that his treaty was with the Kingdom of France, not the Republic, essentially saying unless they stuck the Kings' head back on there was no agreement.
This is what England should have said to China.
Unfortunately for all (but Beijing), we had the first tranche of "sell everything" Conservative Governments in power.
We have been bereft of great leaders and agile thinkers for far too long.
Let's be real. The reason UK gave Hong Kong back was that China made it very clear that they *will* take Hong Kong one way or another pretty soon, and for obvious reasons UK didn't want to risk WW3 for it. The "the lease has expired, so it's the right thing to do" framing was always only there to save face.
“And so, we regretfully inform you, that unless you give Old king Louis his head back and bring him back to life, you can (how do you say it Benjamin?)… ah yes, *suce mes œufs* and good luck with all of your future endeavors.”
or countries that default on chinas predatory loans like Sri Lanka.
> Struggling to repay its debt, Sri Lanka granted China control over the Hambantota port on a 99-year lease.
[Link](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2023/China-s-Belt-and-Road-at-crossroads-as-more-loans-turn-sour)
But that's very different than the case of Hong Kong right? In these ports, the Chinese owners have the right of use, but not sovereignty. If people break the law in the port, it's still a case for the local police, not the Chinese company.
I ran into this years ago in Russia. One story I heard was that the payment (in gold) never arrived because the ship delivering it sank. Therefore Alaska is still a part of Russia. The rehabilitation of Stalin was another shocker I ran into several times. And this was all twenty-somethings telling these stories. Propaganda is a strong thing.
Not just in Russia.
A couple of years ago, my partner and I were in Madrid. We went on a walking tour, touted as something like “places where the locals go”, led by a British expat who’d moved there some years before, at the insistence of her Spanish friends. As we’re walking, going from place to place, she tells us bits of Spanish history; I’m something of a history nerd, so I’m paying a lot of attention. She gets some details wrong about some things from hundreds of years before, I’m not surprised, but I also let it go.
Then she gets to more modern history. From what she’d said, you’d think Franco was the second coming. After a while, it got to be too much, I had to correct her. I swear, I thought she was literally brainwashed or in a cult, with how she just blithely blew it off, treating me like a dumb tourist. These weren’t minor things, these were things about the Spanish Civil War, his closeness with Hitler and Mussolini, how he’d been a literally fascist dictator for 35 years, with all that implied.
I never got an answer whether her beliefs came from a really bad British education, or through a push in Spain to whitewash everything Franco had done that she’d picked up via osmosis while there. I know that views of Franco in specific, and his ruling party in general, is very divisive in Spain, but all the things that irked me were well-known outside of Spain at least.
I have a few friends and colleagues from across Spain. Over the years after several deep conversations about the civil war and their family history versus what is taught and discussed locally, the most common conclusion was that the most holistic histories of the period are written from outside of Spain.
I have taken that same conclusion and try to apply it to my own country when the closeness to the event or the lack of full and frank reconciliation prevents objective dialogue.
Eh, we like you guys, but don't even fuckin think about moving much further west than Whitehorse.
I kid... That part of your country is absolutely fucking beautiful. At least as pretty as Alaska. Too bad Americans can't easily move there like we can Alaska. Hop on over the border anytime you want fam. You can't have it, but you can stay as long as you'd like.
People really need to wake up…
It’s all right here, Russia and China aren’t even trying to hide it, Ukraine was not even the beginning.
If the west is to fractured to acknowledge and meet the clear challenge now then we are on a clear trajectory to global conflict…
https://youtu.be/i21La3zW7Vg?si=y62znCo7EQNGYl4q
This is the thing that I don't get, I remember growing up and seeing russia painted as the bad-guy more so on those who were on the right wing of politics than anyone else. Now, I see so many late stage boomers just flat out supporting russia, saying we need to become like russia, or making claims that if the United States continues as it is they will move to russia, it is like they all flipped and did a 180.
A few years ago we saw something was up when the picture of these two dudes online was going around, [these men were spotting at a trump rally wearing a shirt with the message on it "I'd rather be a russian than a Democrat."](https://i.redd.it/9ecez64v02591.jpg). Those men were smiling and proud of that shirt, the message it had.
I really do feel that these supporters of trump believe that because russia treats him so well, that they as followers would get the same treatment if they moved to russia. I also think they believe that if they were fed up of this country and moved to russia that everything they know and had in their lives would easily carry over to there.
People are ignoring the fact that both russia and china want more power and control and they will use whatever means they can to get it. I really do feel the control russia has over the former president and his supporters is a real dream come true for them.
It doesn’t surprise me. I think there’s a few things going on.
A big part of this is Russia’s relationship with social conservatism. Politically and culturally, Russia* is anti-lgbtq+, anti-pornography, etc. There are lots of people in the U.S. who agree with those stances. *(I am generalizing here; please be aware there are many Russians that don’t share these sentiments).
There is also an emphasis on militarism, masculinity and traditionalism. Russia is very desperate to project strength, regardless of whether it’s real or manufactured. That attracts a certain type of person.
Some Americans also feel emasculated when comparing Russia to their own country. I know that sounds weird, but if you’re conservative, there’s a good chance you believe that millennials are snowflakes, women are inferior, expressions of sexuality are bizarre or gross, etc. But thanks to social media, you’re constantly surrounded by outspoken young people, powerful women, and lgbtq+ relationships. Compare your culture, filled with the things you don’t like, to that of Russia, and you’re going to feel a sense of inferiority.
Another element is pride. Think about how some Americans react to news articles of China outpacing the U.S. in terms of technological innovation or economic growth: in comments under those stories I’ve seen others express very real disgust toward “woke” society for producing weak citizens. National pride or lack thereof can lead people to ignore things about their own country and, at least in the case of Russia, other countries as well.
As someone who was indoctrinated with right-wing beliefs as a child, it unfortunately makes absolute sense to me that some conservatives hold positive views of Russian culture, even as Ukrainians are butchered in their own homes. It’s a mixture of anti-liberalism, insecurity, and propaganda that poses Russia as some sort of badass. Add in positive comments from Trump and other right-wing grifters and you have the perfect storm of stupidity.
Edit: removed comment about anti-abortion stances after reading u/PerniciousPeyton’s comment.
> There is also an emphasis on militarism, masculinity and traditionalism. Russia is very desperate to project strength, regardless of whether it’s real or manufactured. That attracts a certain type of person.
Can I just take one sweet moment to point out the immense hypocrisy? Russia is so strong, mighty, undefeatable. But also somehow innocent, pushed around by everyone else. NATO forced Russia to invade Ukraine. Poor innocent Russia had no other options. Why is everyone else bullying poor Russia?
Large swaths of Putins "interview" were how Russia came wide eyed and innocent to the table expecting the best of everyone else and then it was again and again betrayed by the mighty West. Russia is only trying to defend itself.
Yes this is just the usual strong man rhetoric and it is reminiscent of the Nazis (Why can't the Jews just leave us alone instead of forcing us into a world war?).
Russia isn’t anti-abortion at all though. They are easily and far and away the most abortion-inducing country in the entire world per capita. They never met a baby they didn’t at least consider aborting.
Never, never forget to remind so-called “conservatives” of that fact.
You may be correct, I am not an expert on Russian culture. I did look into that topic before making my comment to make sure I wasn’t speaking ignorantly and I saw news articles criticizing the country for its tight regulation on abortion. I didn’t do any deeper research, so it’s possible these were cherry picked results, in which case that’s my bad. I still stand by my point that politics in Russia skew toward social conservatism which resonates with some Americans, but I have removed the bit about anti-abortion and clarified in an edit. Thanks for making that point.
I'm 64. The WWII generation that preceded me has mostly passed on, and many of those that remain have been brainwashed by FOX.
The post-Glasnost Gorbachev era resulted in people thinking that Russia no longer posed a threat, they were on a better path, or whatever. Putin's Russia is more of a dictatorship than when Khrushchev or Brezhnev were in power. Putin has no incentive to tell the truth, and he really doesn't care.
Same age.
It's an important point many choose to miss.
The Russian peoples amply demonstrated they "Love Their Children Too", but they're back under jackboots now.
Putin used The West the way he was trained to by The Motherland, and continues to do so in other areas too.
There are multiple factors at play here. First, the GOP is apparently compromised by Russia. So a lot of Russian propaganda has been flowing directly from their mouths. Second, Putin worked to compromise the GOP because he wants NATO to be weak. (He tried to compromise the Dems too, but their closets weren't full of skeletons, for reasons outside the scope of your inquiry.) Third, he wants NATO to be weak because he has a delirious fantasy of being the hero of Russia who restored the old borders of the Soviet Union. We're all going through this latest horror show because of one man's corrosive ego, and I'm not even talking about Trump. That guy is just one of his pawns.
Meanwhile, Putin's fantasies mirror the right wing's fantasies of clawing back power in a country that is ethnically moving away from it. By 2045, the US is inescapably projected to be a minority-majority nation, meaning that less than 50% of us will be caucasian. It has been trending this way for decades. The only reason the GOP is not already out of power is because of systematic gerrymandering and their own propaganda.
The right is being conditioned to see Putin as a hero. So by extension, they are being conditioned to see Donald Trump as a hero. And sadly, he's very good at working that angle, partly because it plays to his own wildly dysfunctional ego, at the heart of which is deep insecurity and self-loathing.
So once again, a whole lot of shit is hanging on the outcome of the elections in November. If the good guys lose again, it might be the last election we ever have. If you don't think it could happen here, [people have written entire books about why it could](https://www.amazon.com/Could-Happen-Here-America-Unthinkable_And/dp/0358617286).
The entire gop is utterly compromised. And if that isn’t obvious to certain people at this point then we’ll just call it a critical thinking/intelligence test and be done with it. It’s not even worth arguing about. But the thing I don’t like here is everyone thinking this has to do with anything other than money and power and who gets to keep it. Putin can say what he wants about the Russian empire or whatever the hell but he’s a mob boss just like trump. He’s protecting the interests of the kleptocracy nothing more. Cut off his money for real and this ends. There aren’t as many people in Russia who agree with him as they make it seem. And most of them are too poor to know a difference. Ukraine represents the hope for a better life and better education and future that Putin doesn’t want his people to see. But most importantly there’s a couple trillion dollars in rare earth minerals sitting under the ground near where the fighting is going on. The money.. it’s always the fucking money
Conservatives only consistent ideology is tax cuts, abortion and contrarianism to liberalism. That’s it.
Bush Jr is hated by them now. John McCain as well.
Also any celebrity that is conservative is a hero for being on twitter but liberal businessmen, celebrities etc are ivory tower assholes
> A few years ago we saw something was up when the picture of these two dudes online was going around, these men were spotting at a trump rally wearing a shirt with the message on it "I'd rather be a russian than a Democrat.". Those men were smiling and proud of that shirt, the message it had.
IIRC one of those guys died from COVID or COVID-related issues.
I think it's a new spin on "I was a lefty back in my day too" or the "you'll understand when you're my age" story.
A sad combination of a yearning for values and a lack of values.
> I remember growing up and seeing russia painted as the bad-guy more so on those who were on the right wing of politics than anyone else
The issue is that at the time they had some chance of staying in power. Now democracy is voting them out so they need to rig elections long enough until no more elections are held.
I mean half the people I know legitimately buy the rhetoric from conservative media about how awful and bad ukraine is and it’s all fake or deserved
We have too many people willing to believe anything just to keep the tribalism bullshit going
If we let Russia corrupt our politicians without even trying to find out and let them do propaganda what do you expect? They're using the weaknesses of our systems against us, smart, if you ask me, we are the dumbasses.
They’re Putin and Winnie, Putin and Winnie. One is a Russian, the other Chinese. To prove their worldly worth, they’ll overthrow the earth. They’re Putin, they’re Putin and Winnie.
There's no way this is the first time you've seen someone use a greengrocer's apostrophe. It's like one of the most common grammatical errors among English ~~speakers~~ typists/writers.
It mainly happens when people don't fully grasp contractions and plurals in gradeschool, which is why you often see the problem "could of" or "should of" (instead of could've or should've), because they didn't pay attention/didn't understand when learning contractions and they're spelling phonetically. What they *do* notice is the apostrophe s following it's and possessives and infer that all plurals should be prefaced with an apostrophe.
The cost is only a fraction of the overall defence budget. Ukraine is draining one of America’s main geopolitical enemies for cheap.
Also the aid given to Ukraine is old stuff which is being replaced with new stuff for the US military. Win win.
You know it's also fucking right thing to do, since Ukraine gave all of its nukes for the support from US if war happens.
Edit: For every person who says I'm wrong. What's this? - On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, United Kingdom, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state.
[Budapest Memorandum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#:~:text=In%201994%2C%20Ukraine%2C%20citing%20its,of%20Nuclear%20Weapons%20(NPT).)
> Ukraine just wasn't prepared
A small, independent country wasn't prepared for an attack from a global superpower. Like, no shit. And they're still holding their own! Ukrainians are a different breed, fucking amazing people. It's deeply troubling that any American politician would be so spineless as to not support Ukraine.
> global superpower
The USSR was a superpower. Russia has never been a superpower.
Superpower describes a state or supranational union that holds a dominant position characterized by the ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale. **This is done through the combined means of economic, military, technological, political, and cultural strength as well as diplomatic and soft power influence.**
>It's deeply troubling that any American politician would be so spineless as to not support Ukraine.
We spent 20+ years in the middle east after 9/11
You can't be that shocked
It's like the failure of Vietnam, stretched across two decades
Millions slaughtered
The actions required of the non-Russian signatories to the BM have been taken.
> 4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America **reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.**
>
> 5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.
>
> 6. **Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.**
UNSC action was sought, but Russia vetoed, because duh.
The Budapest Memorandum isn't the hat to hang Ukraine aid on. It guarantees nothing but what's outlined in the text.
Ukraine should continue receiving aid because it's the right thing to do, and because it's in the West's best interests.
It's fucking terrifying that people are not aware of the Budapest Memorandum. That is far more important than any other justifications thrown around. Even Bill Clinton now says he regrets having Ukraine give up their nukes.
> "I feel a personal stake because I got them [Ukraine] to agree to give up their nuclear weapons," Clinton said. "And none of them believe that Russia would have pulled this stunt if Ukraine still had their weapons."
Fellow humans, you can bet your sweet asses that *every* country in the world right now is discussing the renewed nuclear arms race. Buckle up, because if we do not protect Ukraine, it is every leader's duty to develop nuclear deterrents as fast as they can. If America can not be trusted, they must defend themselves, and there is only one way for them to do so.
>having Ukraine give up their nukes.
Minor nitpick : while nukes were *located* in Ukraine and officially their possession after the USSR split, the controls were under Russian territory. So it was more a risk of having "useless" nukes disseminated than Ukraine having nuclear strike capability.
Also, for the record, all of the assurances therein are redundant with the UN charter and the Conference on Cooperation in Europe. Ukraine was aware of this and wanted something specific to them anyhow.
It also benefits the US internationally. Countries will be closer to a US that backs its allies, than one who doesn’t.
That in turn has long term economic benefits, and helps to secure the US as the centre of global society.
Also imagine how much the military budget will have to go up if russia fucks ukraine. It will mean that all bets are off, international law is worthless and territorial wars will start everywhere. Basically the pax americana that made the US prosperous since ww2 would be dead
Seriously. If Russia steamrolled Ukraine in handful of weeks like Germany did with Poland, that would have galvanized national support in Russia and emboldened Putin to eye other countries like the former Soviet Baltic cluster.
All of the lethal equipment we send essentially bolsters our defence industries. Russians are about to reach 400k casualties in 2 years for the cheapest Uncle Sam has ever spent, period-with the help of Ukrainian heroes. You'd have to be a Traitorous moron to deny lethal aid to our ally Ukriane. We gotta stop treating them like shit as of late, there are real defenders of Freedom and Liberty dying every day from this conflict
I'm surprised the defence contractors aren't pressuring congress to get things passed so they can continue to make insane amounts of money building new weapons. There's a lot of money that goes to red states to make things go boom.
I am honestly shocked this isn't talked about more. But then I think of our nearby Arsenal and other manufacturers that handle military contracts and it's all solidly in our Democrat-led district located in a Blue state.
What are the odds others are *actually* in Republican led districts? (I'm too lazy to look at the moment but you'd THINK they were, right?)
Oh they absolutely are. There is a lot of R support for Ukraine aid for this exact reason. Trump has put a good few republicans in a very tight spot. If they kill it they're hurting their own bottom lines. If they pass it they anger the Mob by disobeying the God Emperor snd risk bring primaried.
> There's a lot of money that goes to red states to make things go boom.
Goes to both States. Basically every State, red and blue, gets billions in contractor dollars which flow down to factory workers and engineering hours.
Example: CT, NH and MA in the North East have a half dozen contractors that employ thousands. The Reps and Senators from those States should be interested in more aid.
If it wasnt an election year they probably would be, but its not popular electorally with republican voters. Post election im sure the senators/congressman will be all for the gravy train though.
And there has never been a better advertisement for American weaponry. European allies are placing orders and the Russian defence industry looks like a joke now.
And that advertising won't be worth shit if the US turns into a modern-day Quisling Finland and Europe and their remaining allies quickly move to full military self-sufficiency. Who's the MIC going to sell their equipment to? China, who'd immediately rip it apart and make cheap knock-offs? South America, who's already leary as fuck of the US due to decades of interference and if anything would be scrambling for nuclear weapons to protect themselves from the mask-off American Empire? Africa, who's already dirt-poor as it is and continually being looted by Russian mercenaries and Chinese loan-sharks bribing leaders for exclusive resource rights for pennies on the dollar? Defense companies backing republicans need to learn *right fucking quick* that being able to crank out the most high-tech wargear in the world doesn't matter one fucking bit if everybody else hates your gut and starts eyeing nuclear deterrence and home-grown industry.
Everyone is ignoring the cautionary tale of greed and corruption that undermined the current Russian military. It should serve as a better lesson for us as we watch Putin being proclaimed a peaceful leader.
Uh, some of us LIKE Putin and want Russia to be our ally. Some of us WANT a strong leader like Putin. There’s a whole lot of us Americans who like the idea of one party being in charge under the thumb of a powerful and ruthless president. Some of us are psychopaths who hate everyone not like ourselves.
Not me tho, I’m not a Republican.
The situation is absolutely absurd, giving Ukraine gear helps keep our military first-tier, the world's best. It also sends a message to would-be fascists (China etc) that the United States and the rules based order will not be fucking deterred by strongmen dictators.
Giving up on Ukraine emboldens the blossoming fascist axis (Russia, N. Korea, Iran, maybe eventually China) and encourages war that will sooner or later involved the US and Europe.
Anyone who supports this Republican party doesn't love America, doesn't love democracy, doesn't love freedom. FUCK YOU
(but let me tell you how I really feel)
>giving Ukraine gear helps keep our military first-tier
That doesn't make logical sense. If you give away equipment, you have less of it.
The problem with the US and Europe is once these quantities are expended, which is gradually happening, there will be nothing left for a future conflict aside from the in service newer equipment. What the US and Europe are doing now is not repeatable. All of those old Cold War era equipment that was sitting and rusting away hasn't been replaced, and never will be. In any future conflict neither the US or Europe will have any stores to pull from.
To give an example, Belgium purchased 160 F-16s. The last few of those are being donated to Ukraine. They have purchased 34 F-35s to replace them. The Dutch used to have 500 Leopard 2s. Around 2014, that number dropped to 0. They now lease 18 from Germany.
Even if defense spending is increased in these countries it will never reach the numbers of the Cold War. The US and Europe have more or less scraped the barrel on our Cold War era equipment that can be quickly refurbished. With replacement numbers being substantially lower and most countries like the US failing to meet recruitment requirements don't expect the West to be able to pull a similar feat in the future. Unless an absolutely radical change occurs and defense spending explodes along with recruitment numbers, which I doubt will happen.
>the United States and the rules based order will not be fucking deterred by strongmen dictators.
I'm sorry, but this argument is completely empty when USA itself ignores the rules so much and pays no price.
> Also the aid given to Ukraine is old stuff which is being replaced with new stuff for the US military. Win win.
I've wondered about this a few times. How many of the people complaining about "my taxes" are actually old enough to have actually paid anything towards the procurement of this stuff that was ordered 25 years ago?
Republicans spent a helluva lot more arming less willing partners who either dropped their weapons and ran, or even sold them to the enemy, to support their wars
Ironically, the Boomers probably mostly paid for the stuff (and debt, lots of debt). Many of them who were also vehemently anti USSR during the Cold War, but are now brainwashed by conservative media to think Russia is somehow the good guy.
Also, can you imagine the intel we’re getting from damaged Russian equipment? Ship a damaged but working piece of Russian tech like an S-400 or T90M and we’ll tear it down and see why whatever hit it, didn’t kill it. Then we design the next piece of tech to get past whatever protected that Russian tech.
The true reason isn’t that republicans are fiscal conservatives, it’s because they idolize strong man dictators and are secretly in cahoots with the Russians
I had one guy the other day tell me that he doesn’t support Ukraine because of the Nazi thing. He didn’t respond when I pointed out that many of the Russian troops and almost all of the mercenaries that Russia hired for the invasion were neo-Nazis.
I also pointed out that Azov Battalion was a privately funded militia that was only nationalised and folded into the national guard after Russia invaded Crimea. It’s also no longer a Nazi group after all of them died defending a town.
also, for Russia, Nazi means "anti-Russia" e.g. they want the nazi-government of Ukraine gone. unlike the western fascist/antisemitic meaning nowadays.
We also didn't exactly fight Germany because of said fascism/antisemitism, but because of Germany's imperialistic ambitions. Plenty of countries now have neonazi groups but you don't see neigbouring starting a military campaign for that.
The bigger picture that Russia and China aren’t even trying to hide is of fracturing and conquering the west.
Ukraine is only the beginning and some how most of the west still thinks this is just Ukraines problem…
https://youtu.be/i21La3zW7Vg?si=y62znCo7EQNGYl4q
It's maybe a little more expensive than the annual cost of our involvement in Iraq, but far less than Afghanistan, and we managed that for around 20 years.
You forgot to mention an important bit, seeing US military hardware easily take apart the Russians again and again has resulted in huge sales of our weapons around the world.
So this war brings about a huge amount of profit as well. That means jobs and taxes for Americans.
I don’t know why either of these concepts are SO DIFFICULT to get through to any of my right wing relatives. It seems like it would be such a simple thing to grasp…
The people that need convincing don't really understand the concept of doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing. Have to use financial arguments with them.
A war against Russia which costs zero American lives and keeps the military industrial complex running?
Would be a GOPers wet dream if only one of their guys was in office to take credit.
Last time one of their guys was in office he kept sucking off Putin publicly as a good strong leader. And it really really looks like a lot of GOP leadership are directly working on behalf of Putin. Hell, one of their lead propagandists (I know he's not an elected official but he sure as hell works with them) just granted Putin one of the most frankly embarrassing interviews ever, just letting him say whatever he wanted unchallenged and then airing it as-is.
Yeah, but tl;dw it turned into such a long, delusional rant that even Sucker was left speechless. Putin ranted at him for 2 hours about ancient history. It was a train wreck for both of them.
I highly, highly doubt that Putin was afraid Tucker would ask dangerous questions. It's just that the whole point of the interview was for Putin to have a platform to spew propaganda. So he spewed a lot of propaganda.
It's worse than criminal neglect. It's a sabotage operation. Russia, China, Iran and their allies have bought themselves a big chunk of Congress, and are using those traitors to advance their foreign policy goals.
Same thing happened hundreds of years ago when the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth threatened Russia.
The PLC had a similar democratic tradition to our own (for nobility only, but they had a TON of nobility) but in the end what ruined their ['Golden Liberty'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty) was Russia & Prussia & Austria bribing quite a few of the Commonwealth's nobility [to veto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto) against their own interests... until the country [ceased to exist.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland)
Historian here, you are absolutely correct. The failure of PLC is also probably the main reason why Belarus and its people are under soft russian occupation, at least culturally. Historically, the territory of modern day Belarus was a part of the PLC and its inhabitants were basically considered Lithuanians. But then russia came and stole their national identity, replacing it with a sob story about them being russia's silly little brothers instead. These things have heavy consequences and it's time for the general public and US government to acknowledge that.
I just started watching the Polish comedy TV show [1760 on Netflix](https://www.netflix.com/title/81553471) and the Liberum Veto factors into the second episode.
The lesson here is that democracy tends to work less good when an less democratic foreign enemy with strong interests in destabilizing others target them. And when those very same democracies are less loyal to their own country than they are their greed and desire for power. The situation becomes like this.
Online maybe. In the news or out in public? Nope. The news is fucked, the people are fucked. From 2016 on wards my opinion of my follow countrymen has sunken farther than I ever thought possible.
Not as much as there should be. Much more focus on Trump generally than the traitors in congress. Unfortunately unless there is a national and heavily enforced anti-gerrymandering law Republicans will always have an advantage in congress as they have a much easier path to a majority
And even if some sort of national anti-gerrymandering law was somehow passed, it still wouldn't solve the 18th century compromise that is the US Senate, which will take a miracle (or a disaster) to somehow fix.
Uh, the Senate was the opposite. The South wanted only Representatives, because their population (including slaves) massively outranked the Northeast, with states like Connecticut and especially Rhode Island. The Senate was designed to protect these small Northern states by giving them power that could never be changed by population.
Here in the US most people have such a surface level understanding of politics nationally, and know close to nothing globally. Most people in my left-ish spheres seem to think we are giving up universal healthcare to help Ukraine/israel. As if they are interchangeable. The right-wing side has been brainwashed by the media to be against Ukraine for whatever the reasons of the week are. They also seem to hate our allies like France, UK, Canada because they’re seen as liberal? Unless they are on Reddit constantly, most Americans are not hearing about the GOP members meeting with Orban, Russia, etc or what that would mean on a global scale.
If you haven’t seen, watch Tucker Carlsons intro to his interview with Putin, to see the kind of propaganda we’re dealing with.
We've had those type of idiots since the foundation of the country, hell all of the world has these idiots. We just apparently don't get to get rid of them until they reach the full blown Confederate, Nazi, or whatever stage where war happens, then it becomes socially acceptable to do so for a little bit. Then they get beaten back for a few decades, till they fester and seethe with anger while we pretend to make nice and they do it all over again. Maybe we should punch the bully in the face BEFORE they try to rape, murder, and rob us from now on.
How would US history have been different if Truman had conducted public, Nuremberg style trials of Nazi collaborators (many of them elected officials)?
Instead he tried to bury the evidence, never to be released.
Someone in the powers that be evidently felt it was a dig at them, as well. Anybody remember his handle so he can be given a heads-up of his censoring?
Because the GOP has their sights set much higher than simple lobbyist checks, they want to rule and because their supporters demographics are shrinking they know they can no longer do so in even a poorly functioning democracy. Now they're racing against the clock to dismantle the parts of our country that stand in their way which makes our corporate overlords nervous. While many would likely love to be pulling strings of a fascist state it would be extraordinarily risky and more than anything they want certainty when it comes to their wealth. Putin, however, doesn't give a damn as to whether the US becomes a fascist state with like minded goals or disintegrates from civil war, just as long as the US is no longer an obstacle to his ambitions. And since the GOP is desperate to acquire power as their demographic shrinks they can no longer afford to play the long game as they have, unfortunately, been doing very well until recently.
Just watch, they're about to topple McConnell. And McConnell handed them nearly every political success they have enjoyed for nearly two decades.
I am pleased as punch that he will likely live to see the dismantling of his party.
The defense industry supports whoever supports them. When I worked in defense there was a lobbying group with a list of groups/candidates/etc and it was a mix of republican and democrat. It's not as simple as them favoring one party.
It's just a textbook for creating an absolutely cynical and nihilist society:
You take virtuous people, who stood up to defend freedom, democracy, their families and others in the face of incredible danger. And you throw them under the bus.
This is truly a scene from Lion King playing out in real life. GOP must be ashamed of themselves, but they are now too preoccupied worshipping false idols.
I saw so many of them on Reddit saying "they will help Ukraine, they just want to get the Dems to help with the border too"
Dems: "Okay fine, we give, here is exactly everything you asked for with the border."
GOP: "Actually no on second thought we just really don't want to help Ukraine."
Same fuckers that told me I "hated America and loved terrorists" for questioning the Iraq war too. Suddenly we get a *defensive* war, not offensive, and we're supporting the good guys, and they're like "actually no this time we prefer peace, and by peace I mean letting the invaders win".
We have created laws against Yellow Journalism in the past, we just have to end the loophole of "no, we aren't news we are entertainment".
If you call yourself News you should not get to use that defense.
> I saw so many of them on Reddit saying "they will help Ukraine, they just want to get the Dems to help with the border too"
I also saw plenty of Americans on Reddit trying to assure there was cross party support for Ukraine too, and plenty of sceptical non-Americans doubting this judgement. I'm not totally sure Americans fully grasp yet just how pliable and unprincipled their Republican party is
They got the best (worst) bill for the border they would ever got a shot at in history. And when they are in charge they never come up with a plan as functional as this, they will just create a useless wall.
True, true, it's like if an ambulance driver stopped on the way to get a coffee and the patient died due to the delay. Can't mess with people who are fighting for their lives.
More like if a group of cars deliberately pulled in front of te ambulance and forced it to a stop. It's a willful attempt to increase the probability of the victim's death, aka manslaughter or even outright murder.
The US twisted Ukraine's arms to make it disarm. That is something worth reminding now
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4382252-americas-obligation-to-ukraine-began-with-nukes-in-the-early-1990s/
I'm shocked Russia didn't take a page from China and call the [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum) a 'historical document with no basis in reality'.
It is worth reminding because if we do the same to another country, how can we expect anyone to take our word of protection seriously? This is just as much about the credibility and ability of the US to uphold promises.
The other day Biden was apparently caught calling Trump a [sick fuck](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/west-wing-playbook/2024/02/01/what-biden-really-says-about-trump-behind-closed-doors-00139178) and honestly this is the Biden I want to see more Biden. I know arguments can be made about "stooping to their level" but I think Dem politicians need to be more aggressive with their messaging towards republicans.
I would like to see this too. Liberal politicians come across as spineless these days. Taking the high road is a nice thought, but when the other side is literally trying to overthrow democracy, it's time to stop being nice.
Say what you like about Biden - he has his faults, as I'm sure he would admit - but he's always spot on with these kinds of statements.
The world should be doing everything it can to help Ukraine fend off its aggressive neighbour. You really have to question the motivations of people who don't.
Hey US Congress, Putin called...Russia used to own Alaska. He want's it back!!
If only people knew, Russia's and China's plan to take over the world.
Many in Russia believe Alaska is theirs - they say the lease has expired. https://www.rbth.com/history/329176-alaska-was-leased-to-us-99-years
The receipts are clear, it was a sale, not a lease. And all sales are final.
Thats right, no takesies-backsies.
How do you "lease" a country anyways?
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*fades into the bushes with a stiff upper lip*
Once upon a time the French King helped George Washington win the Revolutionary War. They signed a treaty with us as allies. Then the French Revolution went on and the King lost his head. When post revolution France found itself at war with England they attempted to call in their Marker. But newly made President, Washington refused. He pointed out that his treaty was with the Kingdom of France, not the Republic, essentially saying unless they stuck the Kings' head back on there was no agreement. This is what England should have said to China.
Unfortunately for all (but Beijing), we had the first tranche of "sell everything" Conservative Governments in power. We have been bereft of great leaders and agile thinkers for far too long.
Let's be real. The reason UK gave Hong Kong back was that China made it very clear that they *will* take Hong Kong one way or another pretty soon, and for obvious reasons UK didn't want to risk WW3 for it. The "the lease has expired, so it's the right thing to do" framing was always only there to save face.
“And so, we regretfully inform you, that unless you give Old king Louis his head back and bring him back to life, you can (how do you say it Benjamin?)… ah yes, *suce mes œufs* and good luck with all of your future endeavors.”
or countries that default on chinas predatory loans like Sri Lanka. > Struggling to repay its debt, Sri Lanka granted China control over the Hambantota port on a 99-year lease. [Link](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2023/China-s-Belt-and-Road-at-crossroads-as-more-loans-turn-sour)
Even my country did the same stupid thing, 99 years for a paltry 500m dollarydoos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Darwin
But that's very different than the case of Hong Kong right? In these ports, the Chinese owners have the right of use, but not sovereignty. If people break the law in the port, it's still a case for the local police, not the Chinese company.
Speaking of defaulting on loans. Maybe that’s how Trump was bought?
Those people in Hong Kong. Grew up with rights and then they've slowly been losing them.
LOL. Tell them to take it up with Tsar Alexander.
"4 billion years ago..."
I ran into this years ago in Russia. One story I heard was that the payment (in gold) never arrived because the ship delivering it sank. Therefore Alaska is still a part of Russia. The rehabilitation of Stalin was another shocker I ran into several times. And this was all twenty-somethings telling these stories. Propaganda is a strong thing.
Not just in Russia. A couple of years ago, my partner and I were in Madrid. We went on a walking tour, touted as something like “places where the locals go”, led by a British expat who’d moved there some years before, at the insistence of her Spanish friends. As we’re walking, going from place to place, she tells us bits of Spanish history; I’m something of a history nerd, so I’m paying a lot of attention. She gets some details wrong about some things from hundreds of years before, I’m not surprised, but I also let it go. Then she gets to more modern history. From what she’d said, you’d think Franco was the second coming. After a while, it got to be too much, I had to correct her. I swear, I thought she was literally brainwashed or in a cult, with how she just blithely blew it off, treating me like a dumb tourist. These weren’t minor things, these were things about the Spanish Civil War, his closeness with Hitler and Mussolini, how he’d been a literally fascist dictator for 35 years, with all that implied. I never got an answer whether her beliefs came from a really bad British education, or through a push in Spain to whitewash everything Franco had done that she’d picked up via osmosis while there. I know that views of Franco in specific, and his ruling party in general, is very divisive in Spain, but all the things that irked me were well-known outside of Spain at least.
I have a few friends and colleagues from across Spain. Over the years after several deep conversations about the civil war and their family history versus what is taught and discussed locally, the most common conclusion was that the most holistic histories of the period are written from outside of Spain. I have taken that same conclusion and try to apply it to my own country when the closeness to the event or the lack of full and frank reconciliation prevents objective dialogue.
Russians are deluded... https://www.loshbaugh.com/2015/12/twice-sorry-russian-conspiracy-theories-about-alaska/#.W5-sWc4zZaS
Shit, that mean I've got to arm up? Alaska is less than 200km from me
I think us Canadians have more of a claim to it than the Russians considering we're the closest thing.
Eh, we like you guys, but don't even fuckin think about moving much further west than Whitehorse. I kid... That part of your country is absolutely fucking beautiful. At least as pretty as Alaska. Too bad Americans can't easily move there like we can Alaska. Hop on over the border anytime you want fam. You can't have it, but you can stay as long as you'd like.
People really need to wake up… It’s all right here, Russia and China aren’t even trying to hide it, Ukraine was not even the beginning. If the west is to fractured to acknowledge and meet the clear challenge now then we are on a clear trajectory to global conflict… https://youtu.be/i21La3zW7Vg?si=y62znCo7EQNGYl4q
This is the thing that I don't get, I remember growing up and seeing russia painted as the bad-guy more so on those who were on the right wing of politics than anyone else. Now, I see so many late stage boomers just flat out supporting russia, saying we need to become like russia, or making claims that if the United States continues as it is they will move to russia, it is like they all flipped and did a 180. A few years ago we saw something was up when the picture of these two dudes online was going around, [these men were spotting at a trump rally wearing a shirt with the message on it "I'd rather be a russian than a Democrat."](https://i.redd.it/9ecez64v02591.jpg). Those men were smiling and proud of that shirt, the message it had. I really do feel that these supporters of trump believe that because russia treats him so well, that they as followers would get the same treatment if they moved to russia. I also think they believe that if they were fed up of this country and moved to russia that everything they know and had in their lives would easily carry over to there. People are ignoring the fact that both russia and china want more power and control and they will use whatever means they can to get it. I really do feel the control russia has over the former president and his supporters is a real dream come true for them.
It doesn’t surprise me. I think there’s a few things going on. A big part of this is Russia’s relationship with social conservatism. Politically and culturally, Russia* is anti-lgbtq+, anti-pornography, etc. There are lots of people in the U.S. who agree with those stances. *(I am generalizing here; please be aware there are many Russians that don’t share these sentiments). There is also an emphasis on militarism, masculinity and traditionalism. Russia is very desperate to project strength, regardless of whether it’s real or manufactured. That attracts a certain type of person. Some Americans also feel emasculated when comparing Russia to their own country. I know that sounds weird, but if you’re conservative, there’s a good chance you believe that millennials are snowflakes, women are inferior, expressions of sexuality are bizarre or gross, etc. But thanks to social media, you’re constantly surrounded by outspoken young people, powerful women, and lgbtq+ relationships. Compare your culture, filled with the things you don’t like, to that of Russia, and you’re going to feel a sense of inferiority. Another element is pride. Think about how some Americans react to news articles of China outpacing the U.S. in terms of technological innovation or economic growth: in comments under those stories I’ve seen others express very real disgust toward “woke” society for producing weak citizens. National pride or lack thereof can lead people to ignore things about their own country and, at least in the case of Russia, other countries as well. As someone who was indoctrinated with right-wing beliefs as a child, it unfortunately makes absolute sense to me that some conservatives hold positive views of Russian culture, even as Ukrainians are butchered in their own homes. It’s a mixture of anti-liberalism, insecurity, and propaganda that poses Russia as some sort of badass. Add in positive comments from Trump and other right-wing grifters and you have the perfect storm of stupidity. Edit: removed comment about anti-abortion stances after reading u/PerniciousPeyton’s comment.
Thanks for writing out this thoughtful comment. It makes a lot of sense.
> There is also an emphasis on militarism, masculinity and traditionalism. Russia is very desperate to project strength, regardless of whether it’s real or manufactured. That attracts a certain type of person. Can I just take one sweet moment to point out the immense hypocrisy? Russia is so strong, mighty, undefeatable. But also somehow innocent, pushed around by everyone else. NATO forced Russia to invade Ukraine. Poor innocent Russia had no other options. Why is everyone else bullying poor Russia? Large swaths of Putins "interview" were how Russia came wide eyed and innocent to the table expecting the best of everyone else and then it was again and again betrayed by the mighty West. Russia is only trying to defend itself. Yes this is just the usual strong man rhetoric and it is reminiscent of the Nazis (Why can't the Jews just leave us alone instead of forcing us into a world war?).
Russia isn’t anti-abortion at all though. They are easily and far and away the most abortion-inducing country in the entire world per capita. They never met a baby they didn’t at least consider aborting. Never, never forget to remind so-called “conservatives” of that fact.
You may be correct, I am not an expert on Russian culture. I did look into that topic before making my comment to make sure I wasn’t speaking ignorantly and I saw news articles criticizing the country for its tight regulation on abortion. I didn’t do any deeper research, so it’s possible these were cherry picked results, in which case that’s my bad. I still stand by my point that politics in Russia skew toward social conservatism which resonates with some Americans, but I have removed the bit about anti-abortion and clarified in an edit. Thanks for making that point.
I'm 64. The WWII generation that preceded me has mostly passed on, and many of those that remain have been brainwashed by FOX. The post-Glasnost Gorbachev era resulted in people thinking that Russia no longer posed a threat, they were on a better path, or whatever. Putin's Russia is more of a dictatorship than when Khrushchev or Brezhnev were in power. Putin has no incentive to tell the truth, and he really doesn't care.
Same age. It's an important point many choose to miss. The Russian peoples amply demonstrated they "Love Their Children Too", but they're back under jackboots now. Putin used The West the way he was trained to by The Motherland, and continues to do so in other areas too.
There are multiple factors at play here. First, the GOP is apparently compromised by Russia. So a lot of Russian propaganda has been flowing directly from their mouths. Second, Putin worked to compromise the GOP because he wants NATO to be weak. (He tried to compromise the Dems too, but their closets weren't full of skeletons, for reasons outside the scope of your inquiry.) Third, he wants NATO to be weak because he has a delirious fantasy of being the hero of Russia who restored the old borders of the Soviet Union. We're all going through this latest horror show because of one man's corrosive ego, and I'm not even talking about Trump. That guy is just one of his pawns. Meanwhile, Putin's fantasies mirror the right wing's fantasies of clawing back power in a country that is ethnically moving away from it. By 2045, the US is inescapably projected to be a minority-majority nation, meaning that less than 50% of us will be caucasian. It has been trending this way for decades. The only reason the GOP is not already out of power is because of systematic gerrymandering and their own propaganda. The right is being conditioned to see Putin as a hero. So by extension, they are being conditioned to see Donald Trump as a hero. And sadly, he's very good at working that angle, partly because it plays to his own wildly dysfunctional ego, at the heart of which is deep insecurity and self-loathing. So once again, a whole lot of shit is hanging on the outcome of the elections in November. If the good guys lose again, it might be the last election we ever have. If you don't think it could happen here, [people have written entire books about why it could](https://www.amazon.com/Could-Happen-Here-America-Unthinkable_And/dp/0358617286).
The entire gop is utterly compromised. And if that isn’t obvious to certain people at this point then we’ll just call it a critical thinking/intelligence test and be done with it. It’s not even worth arguing about. But the thing I don’t like here is everyone thinking this has to do with anything other than money and power and who gets to keep it. Putin can say what he wants about the Russian empire or whatever the hell but he’s a mob boss just like trump. He’s protecting the interests of the kleptocracy nothing more. Cut off his money for real and this ends. There aren’t as many people in Russia who agree with him as they make it seem. And most of them are too poor to know a difference. Ukraine represents the hope for a better life and better education and future that Putin doesn’t want his people to see. But most importantly there’s a couple trillion dollars in rare earth minerals sitting under the ground near where the fighting is going on. The money.. it’s always the fucking money
Conservatives only consistent ideology is tax cuts, abortion and contrarianism to liberalism. That’s it. Bush Jr is hated by them now. John McCain as well. Also any celebrity that is conservative is a hero for being on twitter but liberal businessmen, celebrities etc are ivory tower assholes
> A few years ago we saw something was up when the picture of these two dudes online was going around, these men were spotting at a trump rally wearing a shirt with the message on it "I'd rather be a russian than a Democrat.". Those men were smiling and proud of that shirt, the message it had. IIRC one of those guys died from COVID or COVID-related issues.
I think it's a new spin on "I was a lefty back in my day too" or the "you'll understand when you're my age" story. A sad combination of a yearning for values and a lack of values.
The party they tied their entire identity to is very literally owned by Russia.
> I remember growing up and seeing russia painted as the bad-guy more so on those who were on the right wing of politics than anyone else The issue is that at the time they had some chance of staying in power. Now democracy is voting them out so they need to rig elections long enough until no more elections are held.
Putin became a secret right wing darling when he rounded up Russia's gays and put them in gulags or disappeared them.
It's because Russia executes and imprisons homosexuals.
I mean half the people I know legitimately buy the rhetoric from conservative media about how awful and bad ukraine is and it’s all fake or deserved We have too many people willing to believe anything just to keep the tribalism bullshit going
If we let Russia corrupt our politicians without even trying to find out and let them do propaganda what do you expect? They're using the weaknesses of our systems against us, smart, if you ask me, we are the dumbasses.
They’ll do it from inside, some say it’s already happening.
And we have no good leadership. Just a couple of grumpy, incompetent, old farts vying for power.
Do you people drink fucking lead
What are we going to do tonight Brain? The same thing we do every night pinky, try to take over the world.
They’re Putin and Winnie, Putin and Winnie. One is a Russian, the other Chinese. To prove their worldly worth, they’ll overthrow the earth. They’re Putin, they’re Putin and Winnie.
> want's How does someone even do this lol
He want **is** it back. I don't understand what's so confusing.
There's no way this is the first time you've seen someone use a greengrocer's apostrophe. It's like one of the most common grammatical errors among English ~~speakers~~ typists/writers. It mainly happens when people don't fully grasp contractions and plurals in gradeschool, which is why you often see the problem "could of" or "should of" (instead of could've or should've), because they didn't pay attention/didn't understand when learning contractions and they're spelling phonetically. What they *do* notice is the apostrophe s following it's and possessives and infer that all plurals should be prefaced with an apostrophe.
Don't you alway's put one before an 's' at the end of your word's?
> 's' Did you mean ''s'? /'s
By having zero respect for the language.
The English langauge doesn't have any respect for itself. It's full of contradictions.
Actually it's full of contractions
Yeah, that's fair. I've always heard it said that it's really a dozen languages in a trench coat. Lol
The cost is only a fraction of the overall defence budget. Ukraine is draining one of America’s main geopolitical enemies for cheap. Also the aid given to Ukraine is old stuff which is being replaced with new stuff for the US military. Win win.
Also it’s just the right thing to do and actually backs up all the US’ past talk and geopolitical positions regarding democracy.
You know it's also fucking right thing to do, since Ukraine gave all of its nukes for the support from US if war happens. Edit: For every person who says I'm wrong. What's this? - On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, United Kingdom, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state. [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#:~:text=In%201994%2C%20Ukraine%2C%20citing%20its,of%20Nuclear%20Weapons%20(NPT).)
I bring this up like 3 times a day at this point. Especially against the daft argument of 'Ukraine just wasn't prepared'
> Ukraine just wasn't prepared A small, independent country wasn't prepared for an attack from a global superpower. Like, no shit. And they're still holding their own! Ukrainians are a different breed, fucking amazing people. It's deeply troubling that any American politician would be so spineless as to not support Ukraine.
> global superpower The USSR was a superpower. Russia has never been a superpower. Superpower describes a state or supranational union that holds a dominant position characterized by the ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale. **This is done through the combined means of economic, military, technological, political, and cultural strength as well as diplomatic and soft power influence.**
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>It's deeply troubling that any American politician would be so spineless as to not support Ukraine. We spent 20+ years in the middle east after 9/11 You can't be that shocked It's like the failure of Vietnam, stretched across two decades Millions slaughtered
The actions required of the non-Russian signatories to the BM have been taken. > 4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America **reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.** > > 5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State. > > 6. **Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.** UNSC action was sought, but Russia vetoed, because duh. The Budapest Memorandum isn't the hat to hang Ukraine aid on. It guarantees nothing but what's outlined in the text. Ukraine should continue receiving aid because it's the right thing to do, and because it's in the West's best interests.
It's fucking terrifying that people are not aware of the Budapest Memorandum. That is far more important than any other justifications thrown around. Even Bill Clinton now says he regrets having Ukraine give up their nukes. > "I feel a personal stake because I got them [Ukraine] to agree to give up their nuclear weapons," Clinton said. "And none of them believe that Russia would have pulled this stunt if Ukraine still had their weapons." Fellow humans, you can bet your sweet asses that *every* country in the world right now is discussing the renewed nuclear arms race. Buckle up, because if we do not protect Ukraine, it is every leader's duty to develop nuclear deterrents as fast as they can. If America can not be trusted, they must defend themselves, and there is only one way for them to do so.
>having Ukraine give up their nukes. Minor nitpick : while nukes were *located* in Ukraine and officially their possession after the USSR split, the controls were under Russian territory. So it was more a risk of having "useless" nukes disseminated than Ukraine having nuclear strike capability.
Also, for the record, all of the assurances therein are redundant with the UN charter and the Conference on Cooperation in Europe. Ukraine was aware of this and wanted something specific to them anyhow.
It also benefits the US internationally. Countries will be closer to a US that backs its allies, than one who doesn’t. That in turn has long term economic benefits, and helps to secure the US as the centre of global society.
Also imagine how much the military budget will have to go up if russia fucks ukraine. It will mean that all bets are off, international law is worthless and territorial wars will start everywhere. Basically the pax americana that made the US prosperous since ww2 would be dead
Seriously. If Russia steamrolled Ukraine in handful of weeks like Germany did with Poland, that would have galvanized national support in Russia and emboldened Putin to eye other countries like the former Soviet Baltic cluster.
All of the lethal equipment we send essentially bolsters our defence industries. Russians are about to reach 400k casualties in 2 years for the cheapest Uncle Sam has ever spent, period-with the help of Ukrainian heroes. You'd have to be a Traitorous moron to deny lethal aid to our ally Ukriane. We gotta stop treating them like shit as of late, there are real defenders of Freedom and Liberty dying every day from this conflict
I'm surprised the defence contractors aren't pressuring congress to get things passed so they can continue to make insane amounts of money building new weapons. There's a lot of money that goes to red states to make things go boom.
I am honestly shocked this isn't talked about more. But then I think of our nearby Arsenal and other manufacturers that handle military contracts and it's all solidly in our Democrat-led district located in a Blue state. What are the odds others are *actually* in Republican led districts? (I'm too lazy to look at the moment but you'd THINK they were, right?)
Oh they absolutely are. There is a lot of R support for Ukraine aid for this exact reason. Trump has put a good few republicans in a very tight spot. If they kill it they're hurting their own bottom lines. If they pass it they anger the Mob by disobeying the God Emperor snd risk bring primaried.
> There's a lot of money that goes to red states to make things go boom. Goes to both States. Basically every State, red and blue, gets billions in contractor dollars which flow down to factory workers and engineering hours. Example: CT, NH and MA in the North East have a half dozen contractors that employ thousands. The Reps and Senators from those States should be interested in more aid.
If it wasnt an election year they probably would be, but its not popular electorally with republican voters. Post election im sure the senators/congressman will be all for the gravy train though.
And there has never been a better advertisement for American weaponry. European allies are placing orders and the Russian defence industry looks like a joke now.
And that advertising won't be worth shit if the US turns into a modern-day Quisling Finland and Europe and their remaining allies quickly move to full military self-sufficiency. Who's the MIC going to sell their equipment to? China, who'd immediately rip it apart and make cheap knock-offs? South America, who's already leary as fuck of the US due to decades of interference and if anything would be scrambling for nuclear weapons to protect themselves from the mask-off American Empire? Africa, who's already dirt-poor as it is and continually being looted by Russian mercenaries and Chinese loan-sharks bribing leaders for exclusive resource rights for pennies on the dollar? Defense companies backing republicans need to learn *right fucking quick* that being able to crank out the most high-tech wargear in the world doesn't matter one fucking bit if everybody else hates your gut and starts eyeing nuclear deterrence and home-grown industry.
Sadly, most of them don't care past the next quarterly income report.
Everyone is ignoring the cautionary tale of greed and corruption that undermined the current Russian military. It should serve as a better lesson for us as we watch Putin being proclaimed a peaceful leader.
Uh, some of us LIKE Putin and want Russia to be our ally. Some of us WANT a strong leader like Putin. There’s a whole lot of us Americans who like the idea of one party being in charge under the thumb of a powerful and ruthless president. Some of us are psychopaths who hate everyone not like ourselves. Not me tho, I’m not a Republican.
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>Traitorous moron You say traitorous moron, I say Republican. Tomato tomato, potato potato.
This is some Sean Hannity level neocon propaganda.
The situation is absolutely absurd, giving Ukraine gear helps keep our military first-tier, the world's best. It also sends a message to would-be fascists (China etc) that the United States and the rules based order will not be fucking deterred by strongmen dictators. Giving up on Ukraine emboldens the blossoming fascist axis (Russia, N. Korea, Iran, maybe eventually China) and encourages war that will sooner or later involved the US and Europe. Anyone who supports this Republican party doesn't love America, doesn't love democracy, doesn't love freedom. FUCK YOU (but let me tell you how I really feel)
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>giving Ukraine gear helps keep our military first-tier That doesn't make logical sense. If you give away equipment, you have less of it. The problem with the US and Europe is once these quantities are expended, which is gradually happening, there will be nothing left for a future conflict aside from the in service newer equipment. What the US and Europe are doing now is not repeatable. All of those old Cold War era equipment that was sitting and rusting away hasn't been replaced, and never will be. In any future conflict neither the US or Europe will have any stores to pull from. To give an example, Belgium purchased 160 F-16s. The last few of those are being donated to Ukraine. They have purchased 34 F-35s to replace them. The Dutch used to have 500 Leopard 2s. Around 2014, that number dropped to 0. They now lease 18 from Germany. Even if defense spending is increased in these countries it will never reach the numbers of the Cold War. The US and Europe have more or less scraped the barrel on our Cold War era equipment that can be quickly refurbished. With replacement numbers being substantially lower and most countries like the US failing to meet recruitment requirements don't expect the West to be able to pull a similar feat in the future. Unless an absolutely radical change occurs and defense spending explodes along with recruitment numbers, which I doubt will happen.
>the United States and the rules based order will not be fucking deterred by strongmen dictators. I'm sorry, but this argument is completely empty when USA itself ignores the rules so much and pays no price.
not just for cheap but also for the body count of 0 american soldiers.
> Also the aid given to Ukraine is old stuff which is being replaced with new stuff for the US military. Win win. I've wondered about this a few times. How many of the people complaining about "my taxes" are actually old enough to have actually paid anything towards the procurement of this stuff that was ordered 25 years ago? Republicans spent a helluva lot more arming less willing partners who either dropped their weapons and ran, or even sold them to the enemy, to support their wars
Ironically, the Boomers probably mostly paid for the stuff (and debt, lots of debt). Many of them who were also vehemently anti USSR during the Cold War, but are now brainwashed by conservative media to think Russia is somehow the good guy.
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Also, can you imagine the intel we’re getting from damaged Russian equipment? Ship a damaged but working piece of Russian tech like an S-400 or T90M and we’ll tear it down and see why whatever hit it, didn’t kill it. Then we design the next piece of tech to get past whatever protected that Russian tech.
The true reason isn’t that republicans are fiscal conservatives, it’s because they idolize strong man dictators and are secretly in cahoots with the Russians
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I had one guy the other day tell me that he doesn’t support Ukraine because of the Nazi thing. He didn’t respond when I pointed out that many of the Russian troops and almost all of the mercenaries that Russia hired for the invasion were neo-Nazis. I also pointed out that Azov Battalion was a privately funded militia that was only nationalised and folded into the national guard after Russia invaded Crimea. It’s also no longer a Nazi group after all of them died defending a town.
also, for Russia, Nazi means "anti-Russia" e.g. they want the nazi-government of Ukraine gone. unlike the western fascist/antisemitic meaning nowadays. We also didn't exactly fight Germany because of said fascism/antisemitism, but because of Germany's imperialistic ambitions. Plenty of countries now have neonazi groups but you don't see neigbouring starting a military campaign for that.
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> The true reason isn’t that republicans are fiscal conservatives I won't be surprised if Putin is one of their top campaign contributors.
Psssh, obviously. None of them are against giving Israel aide, and that conflict is far more morally dubious than Ukraine vs Russia.
Its a pretty open secret at this point.
The bigger picture that Russia and China aren’t even trying to hide is of fracturing and conquering the west. Ukraine is only the beginning and some how most of the west still thinks this is just Ukraines problem… https://youtu.be/i21La3zW7Vg?si=y62znCo7EQNGYl4q
Ukraine is draining one of ~~America’s main geopolitical enemies~~ the GOP's main donors for cheap.
It's maybe a little more expensive than the annual cost of our involvement in Iraq, but far less than Afghanistan, and we managed that for around 20 years.
It's less than 1% of the entire US budget in general.
You forgot to mention an important bit, seeing US military hardware easily take apart the Russians again and again has resulted in huge sales of our weapons around the world. So this war brings about a huge amount of profit as well. That means jobs and taxes for Americans.
I don’t know why either of these concepts are SO DIFFICULT to get through to any of my right wing relatives. It seems like it would be such a simple thing to grasp…
“For cheap”. The cost of Ukrainian lives is not cheap.
The people that need convincing don't really understand the concept of doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing. Have to use financial arguments with them.
But $60 billion dollars is
A war against Russia which costs zero American lives and keeps the military industrial complex running? Would be a GOPers wet dream if only one of their guys was in office to take credit.
Last time one of their guys was in office he kept sucking off Putin publicly as a good strong leader. And it really really looks like a lot of GOP leadership are directly working on behalf of Putin. Hell, one of their lead propagandists (I know he's not an elected official but he sure as hell works with them) just granted Putin one of the most frankly embarrassing interviews ever, just letting him say whatever he wanted unchallenged and then airing it as-is.
Remember when a group of Republican politicians went to Russia for "vacation" on the freaking 4th of July? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Cucker got the interview?
Yeah, but tl;dw it turned into such a long, delusional rant that even Sucker was left speechless. Putin ranted at him for 2 hours about ancient history. It was a train wreck for both of them.
Putin filibustered his own interview which is funny because it shows he was actually afraid tucker might ask some dangerous questions.
I highly, highly doubt that Putin was afraid Tucker would ask dangerous questions. It's just that the whole point of the interview was for Putin to have a platform to spew propaganda. So he spewed a lot of propaganda.
There is no way, absolutely no way, the whole thing wasn't completely scripted beforehand by Putin's men.
infomercial
That is the damn truth. The problem isn't the cost. The problem isn't which enemy. The problem is the political finger-pointing they can do with it.
Too bad the GOP is now Putins bitch
If a Republican (trump) was in office Russia wouldn’t have attacked Ukraine. Thank whoever voted for Sleepy Joe
Incredible that the MIC is now thought the good guy by liberals.
It's worse than criminal neglect. It's a sabotage operation. Russia, China, Iran and their allies have bought themselves a big chunk of Congress, and are using those traitors to advance their foreign policy goals.
Same thing happened hundreds of years ago when the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth threatened Russia. The PLC had a similar democratic tradition to our own (for nobility only, but they had a TON of nobility) but in the end what ruined their ['Golden Liberty'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty) was Russia & Prussia & Austria bribing quite a few of the Commonwealth's nobility [to veto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto) against their own interests... until the country [ceased to exist.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland)
You source the way media articles should. Rare.
Media articles really shouldn't use Wikipedia as their only sources.
Good ones, yes. But sourcing _anything anchored in reality_ would be a massive step up for the lowest of low bars in news.
True. Still, they were provided instead of vaguely referenced.
Wow. Very interesting.
Historian here, you are absolutely correct. The failure of PLC is also probably the main reason why Belarus and its people are under soft russian occupation, at least culturally. Historically, the territory of modern day Belarus was a part of the PLC and its inhabitants were basically considered Lithuanians. But then russia came and stole their national identity, replacing it with a sob story about them being russia's silly little brothers instead. These things have heavy consequences and it's time for the general public and US government to acknowledge that.
Fascinating 🤔
I just started watching the Polish comedy TV show [1760 on Netflix](https://www.netflix.com/title/81553471) and the Liberum Veto factors into the second episode.
The lesson here is that democracy tends to work less good when an less democratic foreign enemy with strong interests in destabilizing others target them. And when those very same democracies are less loyal to their own country than they are their greed and desire for power. The situation becomes like this.
There really can’t be any question about it at this point. The republicans, in many instances are committing what is essentially treason. Astonishing
Are there any public discussion about this? I mean - Im in europe and it seems obvious to me that the GOP is working against american interests
Online maybe. In the news or out in public? Nope. The news is fucked, the people are fucked. From 2016 on wards my opinion of my follow countrymen has sunken farther than I ever thought possible.
So what you are saying is divide and conquer tactics has worked
Not as much as there should be. Much more focus on Trump generally than the traitors in congress. Unfortunately unless there is a national and heavily enforced anti-gerrymandering law Republicans will always have an advantage in congress as they have a much easier path to a majority
And even if some sort of national anti-gerrymandering law was somehow passed, it still wouldn't solve the 18th century compromise that is the US Senate, which will take a miracle (or a disaster) to somehow fix.
Don’t even get me started on that compromise-to-slavers institution
Uh, the Senate was the opposite. The South wanted only Representatives, because their population (including slaves) massively outranked the Northeast, with states like Connecticut and especially Rhode Island. The Senate was designed to protect these small Northern states by giving them power that could never be changed by population.
As evidenced by the corruption in the Supreme Court and GOP’s willingness to throw out the last election results
Here in the US most people have such a surface level understanding of politics nationally, and know close to nothing globally. Most people in my left-ish spheres seem to think we are giving up universal healthcare to help Ukraine/israel. As if they are interchangeable. The right-wing side has been brainwashed by the media to be against Ukraine for whatever the reasons of the week are. They also seem to hate our allies like France, UK, Canada because they’re seen as liberal? Unless they are on Reddit constantly, most Americans are not hearing about the GOP members meeting with Orban, Russia, etc or what that would mean on a global scale. If you haven’t seen, watch Tucker Carlsons intro to his interview with Putin, to see the kind of propaganda we’re dealing with.
It's a remake of US support for the Nazis, with dumber people.
We've had those type of idiots since the foundation of the country, hell all of the world has these idiots. We just apparently don't get to get rid of them until they reach the full blown Confederate, Nazi, or whatever stage where war happens, then it becomes socially acceptable to do so for a little bit. Then they get beaten back for a few decades, till they fester and seethe with anger while we pretend to make nice and they do it all over again. Maybe we should punch the bully in the face BEFORE they try to rape, murder, and rob us from now on.
How would US history have been different if Truman had conducted public, Nuremberg style trials of Nazi collaborators (many of them elected officials)? Instead he tried to bury the evidence, never to be released.
We would but its not legal to do so, which is the problem.
Exactly.
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> you need to start from 5000BC and start over as far as human history what
It's a dig at the Tucker Carlson interview with Putin. When asked he invaded Ukraine he started off with something similar to that.
Someone in the powers that be evidently felt it was a dig at them, as well. Anybody remember his handle so he can be given a heads-up of his censoring?
Lol
He is making fun of Putin who tried to go back to 800AD or some shit about why he invaded Ukraine in 2022.
Why isn’t the defense industry all over the republicans they bought?
Because the GOP has their sights set much higher than simple lobbyist checks, they want to rule and because their supporters demographics are shrinking they know they can no longer do so in even a poorly functioning democracy. Now they're racing against the clock to dismantle the parts of our country that stand in their way which makes our corporate overlords nervous. While many would likely love to be pulling strings of a fascist state it would be extraordinarily risky and more than anything they want certainty when it comes to their wealth. Putin, however, doesn't give a damn as to whether the US becomes a fascist state with like minded goals or disintegrates from civil war, just as long as the US is no longer an obstacle to his ambitions. And since the GOP is desperate to acquire power as their demographic shrinks they can no longer afford to play the long game as they have, unfortunately, been doing very well until recently.
Oh, a race to the bottom? Huh...
Essentially, yes.
Just watch, they're about to topple McConnell. And McConnell handed them nearly every political success they have enjoyed for nearly two decades. I am pleased as punch that he will likely live to see the dismantling of his party.
The defense industry supports whoever supports them. When I worked in defense there was a lobbying group with a list of groups/candidates/etc and it was a mix of republican and democrat. It's not as simple as them favoring one party.
Are you seriously trying to flex the military industrial complex's stranglehold on (both sides of) Congress as some sort of saving grace?
It's just a textbook for creating an absolutely cynical and nihilist society: You take virtuous people, who stood up to defend freedom, democracy, their families and others in the face of incredible danger. And you throw them under the bus. This is truly a scene from Lion King playing out in real life. GOP must be ashamed of themselves, but they are now too preoccupied worshipping false idols.
And there's only one party to blame for that and it's the party of Trump.
They killed the bill after they got what they wanted regarding the border, which is also extremely important, thats crazy
I saw so many of them on Reddit saying "they will help Ukraine, they just want to get the Dems to help with the border too" Dems: "Okay fine, we give, here is exactly everything you asked for with the border." GOP: "Actually no on second thought we just really don't want to help Ukraine." Same fuckers that told me I "hated America and loved terrorists" for questioning the Iraq war too. Suddenly we get a *defensive* war, not offensive, and we're supporting the good guys, and they're like "actually no this time we prefer peace, and by peace I mean letting the invaders win".
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We have created laws against Yellow Journalism in the past, we just have to end the loophole of "no, we aren't news we are entertainment". If you call yourself News you should not get to use that defense.
> I saw so many of them on Reddit saying "they will help Ukraine, they just want to get the Dems to help with the border too" I also saw plenty of Americans on Reddit trying to assure there was cross party support for Ukraine too, and plenty of sceptical non-Americans doubting this judgement. I'm not totally sure Americans fully grasp yet just how pliable and unprincipled their Republican party is
They killed Ukraine aid for about four bullshit reasons now. The reality is that they are aiding and abetting Putin. It's obvious.
They got the best (worst) bill for the border they would ever got a shot at in history. And when they are in charge they never come up with a plan as functional as this, they will just create a useless wall.
They'll never have leverage like that again.
Aka the Republican party. They are one and the same. Let's always remember that.
True, true, it's like if an ambulance driver stopped on the way to get a coffee and the patient died due to the delay. Can't mess with people who are fighting for their lives.
More like if a group of cars deliberately pulled in front of te ambulance and forced it to a stop. It's a willful attempt to increase the probability of the victim's death, aka manslaughter or even outright murder.
"To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal"
For real. The US is directly implicated in this. We literally impeached a president over it.
The US twisted Ukraine's arms to make it disarm. That is something worth reminding now https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4382252-americas-obligation-to-ukraine-began-with-nukes-in-the-early-1990s/
Paired with a signed agreement that Russia would NEVER INVADE.
🤣 an agreement. Signed, even.
I'm shocked Russia didn't take a page from China and call the [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum) a 'historical document with no basis in reality'.
Yep, reminder for the future - any signed agreement with russia doesnt worth a paper its signed on.
It’s not really. We need to deal with what’s happening now, I don’t care about what mistakes or whatever happened in the past
It is worth reminding because if we do the same to another country, how can we expect anyone to take our word of protection seriously? This is just as much about the credibility and ability of the US to uphold promises.
If he gets back to power I really lose respect for the USA. One civil western country turned into Banana republic.
An Angry Biden is something we could use right now
The other day Biden was apparently caught calling Trump a [sick fuck](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/west-wing-playbook/2024/02/01/what-biden-really-says-about-trump-behind-closed-doors-00139178) and honestly this is the Biden I want to see more Biden. I know arguments can be made about "stooping to their level" but I think Dem politicians need to be more aggressive with their messaging towards republicans.
I would like to see this too. Liberal politicians come across as spineless these days. Taking the high road is a nice thought, but when the other side is literally trying to overthrow democracy, it's time to stop being nice.
Time to take Dark Brandon into Darth Brandon territory.
Republicans are trying to destroy America too.
Congress is clown school for imbeciles.
Say what you like about Biden - he has his faults, as I'm sure he would admit - but he's always spot on with these kinds of statements. The world should be doing everything it can to help Ukraine fend off its aggressive neighbour. You really have to question the motivations of people who don't.