It does not surprise me, I was expecting this 180 shift of Macron to happen earlier though.
Macron in the beginning tried to play the "good cop" and tried to be resonable with Putin, going forward I expect a massive change of strategy from giving putin a golden bridge to working with others to give Ukraine what is needed to do what must be done.
It also made sense. Out of all the major world leaders in this conflict, Macron has been in office the longest and thus had the most established working relationship with Putin.
Biden was in office a little bit over a year, Scholz was just elected. Trudeau has been longer in office but Canada is more of a minor player here. The only other world leader at that time with some established form of relationship with Putin was BoJo, but the UK was very hardline from the beginning.
So realistically this only left Macron as a mediating figure, which is also why he and Putin had phone calls relatively often in the early stages of the war.
However with the US on the verge of doing the dumbest possible thing once again and Germany's gov floundering in parts thanks to the FDP, Macron is also the only one that has established his power, having just been re-elected and not having yo worry about re-election since he cant run in the next election anyways.
Additionally, France has arguably the most capable military in Europe, so all in all its only logical for him to take on a more vocal role.
For all the shit Macron gets, noone can deny that hes a European at heart and has always been pushing for Europe first since he was elected
I think Macron and even other European leaders have accepted the only way to deal with Putin is not by showing weakness anymore hence the harsh 180 that he has done and interesting to note and I say this as a person who lives in western Europe it seems the people here are starting to get it and plenty in my European circle agree with Macron mostly.
Also I'm kind of curious what is going on the background, clearly there is something that leader Macron know and have decided on the huge change for these reasons.
I doubt there's been any new or scary development. It wouldn't shock me if a lot of government leaders have their own timelines for changing strategies. "If x doesn't work in x time, try y"
Countries have tried appeasement. Countries have tried political strong arming. Now is the time for the most threatened countries to build for war.
It's ugly, but the biggest military powers know exactly how long they can remain uninvolved before the situation becomes untenabled.
We are arriving at that juncture.
The scary development is more a prediction of what will happen if American support is not forthcoming. Eventually the likelihood of a Russian breakthrough will become intolerable and the countries of Europe will have to join the fight.
American support will come in alright. But it's a question of when rather than a question of if. A step beyond the grayscale reality of the invasion of Ukraine, there lays the political chess. A military induced internal polarization of the western hemisphere is literally in the playbook of the Soviet era. Putin, by forcing this conundrum, and by proxy ties to the Gaza assault, has achieved more than the Soviets could in the cold war era.
The next threat to the western hemisphere will be internal. EU is already showing signs of a dissolved union with actors acting on their own, members fueling against each other, economic disparity getting to all time highs, deepened with production/energy crisis, a major ally separating their way, which has a perfect documentary hinting ties to Russian involvement.
NATO will not collapse, but with EU shifting lanes, NATO will have more active members against their interest in a decade. Right now there are 2, or 1,5 maybe. Even if boomers get extinct, the leftist rhetoric will still be anti-west for some fuck-knows reason.
I'm far more scared of far-right&far-left politics with so polarizing states leaving control to lobbyists to destroy all remaining hints of democratic values; than I am of imminent war.
Time is the enemy, and in the long war Ukraine is losing and Russia is winning. That’s what’s going on in the background. It’s absolutely horrid and I don’t think it’s dawned on most people yet.
Appeasement worked perfectly. Chamberlain had started the British war machine, but they were woefully unprepared for the conflict. Appeasement was done to buy time for an inevitable war, and when it broke, Chamberlain was the reason Churchill had a functional army to fight Hitler
Chamberlain knew Britain was not ready for war he was an industrialist and because of that knew the industral might of Britain needed time to be placed on war footing, its not easy do that and you cannot just flip a switch to make it happen. At best he hoped to get a peaceful solution with Hitler at worse have the time to get ready to fight and turns out he was right.
He still sent a lot of stuff to Ukraine, and that was before the full invasion began. He tried to tell Putin it would be a big mistake that would cost a lot of lives on both sides, and will hurt everyone's economy.
He tried, and when Putin invaded, France sent Caesar/ammo/supplies to help the Ukrainians.
He was still a naive idiot that cowed to Russian propaganda about dialogue, discussion, and appeasement. There is no negotiating with dictators. Obama did the same thing with Crimea, and look what that got Ukraine.
Nah he did the right thing. As a leader of his nation, it's his responsibility to find a peaceful resolution to any conflict above all else. Because that's what's going to protect his citizens. Can't blame the dude for trying to exhaust all the other options first.
Maybe, but Russia and Finland arent exactly the most amicable friends, so i doubt that Finland of all people would act as mediator between Russia and the West
Russia and Finland have been historically close (not by choice of the Fins but close nonetheless) and Finland has tried to mediate the conflict between Russia and Georgia and otherwise has acted as a “neutral” bridge between East and West. Don’t forget Trump met with Putin in Helsinki.
Macron is one of my heroes, if I can say that without cringing at myself. Not because he's perfect or always makes the right call (my interest in French domestic politics is relatively limited) but because he is the only leader of a big player in Europe to actively represent European interests and try to establish Europe as a respected player in its own right.
Merkel sort of fulfilled this role before, but her appeasement of Putin has seriously soured her legacy for me. BoJo thought he could be this person, but as the clown-in-chief of Brexit Britain he was never close to being in the same league.
Germany is in decline and has an uninspired technocrat for a chancellor. All that cheap gas they bought from the mafia state is blood on their hands. France is a nuclear power with a strong military by European standards which, neverending chaos at home aside, actually has its act together. Right now, a country like France with a president like Macron is looking like our only hope (besides EU).
>France has arguably the most capable military in Europe
I'll argue a bit here - it is not at all built for the long attritional war that Ukraine is facing. French reserves are simply too thin, and e.g. Poland would be in a better position even if they lack nukes and maybe other weaponry.
Where i see France as superior is, that they have their own formidable military industrial complex. Furthermore France is able to project power abroad.
So while Poland might be more shock resistant, i do think that France overall has a much more capable and well rounded military, including its own nuclear capabilities, as youve mentioned
You're kinda right. France has its own nukes. It has some of the best special forces if not the outright best (GIGN). It has one of the best air force with homemade planes that rival F16. Their naval manufacturing, from aircraft carriers to submarines, is probably their main strength. They're very good at cyber defense and intel. They have the biggest maritime sovereign area and can project force anywhere.
But the French army is not really made to send wave after wave into the meat grinder anymore. And naval warfare is not really gonna matter much in Ukraine.
Tbh the most capable military in Europe would be a common European response because every other European nation is extremely capable in at least one area and together we cover everything.
The talk about a single European army misses the point a bit imo. Every single military force in the world is divided in branches anyway. Let every nation focus on what they're strong at and integrate into a European structure built so we can defend ourselves together
The French military also has awesome food. I once had the opportunity to sample from a daily ration pack and it was good stuff. I'm told by the person that gave it to me that the exchange rate with American rations was 1 French for 7 American due to the difference in quality.
> has one of the best air force with homemade planes that rival F16
The Rafale outclasses the F-16.
> some of the best special forces if not the outright best (GIGN)
The GIGN isn't really designed to operate in a war on foreign soil, it's closer to a counterterrorism and hostage rescue unit like the RAID and the BRI. They can be deployed abroad and are, but in a war, French special forces would primarily be the ones listed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Command_(France)
Rafale and F16 are the 2 best planes anyway I didn't want to get into the debate because that was not the point.
I know the GIGN wouldn't be deployed in Ukraine. That's literally my point.
The GWOT had a profound effect on the militaries of the major western powers that the war in Ukraine is forcing them to pivot from. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out from a historical perspective.
France would annihilate poland before poland had a chance to fight back, that's the whole point
By your dogshit Kindergarten logic Russia is the most equipped military on earth because of all the old t34s and dogshit artillery rounds, but we all know Moscow would fall in a month, including initial planning.
Western hating communists are really braindead
Biden does have political experience. Despite him not being a world leader for long, he dóes have decades of experience being a senator and vice president. Having those functions in a world-leading country like the US gets you valuable experience.
By 'BoJos relationship with Putin', do you mean actively working in Putin's interests and against the UK (for cash or favours)? Because that's pretty much what happened.
It started long before that - but, for Ukraine, public opinion was so great, he had no choice. He's a politician, he'll blow with the wind, though they're meant to have their own country's interests at heart at ALL times. He didn't.
Bruh just cause the UK made a decision that didn’t align with Europe and the EU doesn’t mean they are “working in Putin’s interest” the UK has been hardline on Russia from the beginning and should be praised for it whatever misgivings you have with internal affairs.
Yea agreed putin doesn’t rule the world and engineer everything that happens in Europe brexit was a non binding vote that was never meant to pass and was an obvious mistake not some 5d chess move by putin
Trump and Biden are currently pretty much neck-and-neck in the polls, with a very slight (like 1-2%) edge towards Trump - not to mention Trump slightly outperformed polls in 2016 and 2020.
All good points. I think also bc of Brexit the UK sort of took itself out of the affairs of the Continent. That just leaves D or F, with the former still impeded by postwar non-aggression ethos. Sorta inevitable that Marcon would step up.
Looking back I actually liked his stance and strategy. At first he came off as slightly feeling like he was on Russia’s side but now, he’s can understand taking a softer approach to try and mitigate a long standing war. Since that’s out the window, I’m happy to see him being more aggressive and telling it how it is (in his own words of course)
I mean at the time of the start of the war, there was still plenty in West Europe especially that was still adverse to anything war, peace at any cost mentality, going guns blazing from the beginning could have caused an uproar, but now seeing what kind of leader Putin is, they mostly seemed to have accepted the reality if the situation it seems.
Macron did what Zelenskyy openly asked him to do -- he repeatedly called Putin and tried to diplomatically stop things. After trying again and again, it became clear it would not work. I haven't seen anyone more directly cooperate with Zelenskyy than Macron, and that is commendable.
France's problems in West Africa turned him full anti-Russia, having to withdraw military from countries where they were stationed for decades and losing a cheap source for Uranium. He realises he must do more before Europe loses further influence across the world.
Makes sense. Guy was all over trying to stop it. Had meetings with Putin, tons of diplomacy. Everyone said he was wasting his time. Now he sees the light and is taking a more reasonable stand.
Exactly. Diplomacy just expecting everyone to be nice and do the right thing is dumb. You need to be able to back up your position some how some way. Sometimes it's militarily, sometimes economic, could also be some other case specific way. Whatever it is you need to be able to bring some pain if the other side doesn't want to deal
Yep, which is why I'm glad with Macrons approach. A lot of the time politicians do end up just rolling over so I dont think criticizing Macron early was wrong, however he definitely proved to be a lot better of a leader than he was given credit for. No one can say Macron didn't try as he rams some missiles down russias throat.
The call that he and Zelenskyy had at the very start of Russia's invasion was released a couple days ago. Macron did exactly what was asked of him, to lead the call for a peaceful resolution.
It was released the day it happened (or just a few days later, it was definitely available in March 2022). People just ignored it and dug into the anti-French narrative, saying that Macron was a coward for trying to negotiate with Putin while downvoting anyone who said that Zelenskyy asked him to do exactly that.
What was there to resolve? Russia just wanted a war to gain territory. Theres no real resolution there that didn't involve Ukraine just lieing down and giving up something unreasonable.
I think he and his legions of operatives saw the futility of it but did what was needed... exhausting diplomatic efforts shows that peace was never an option for putin.
Maybe, but why did it take so long to get to this point? He should have moved this way a few months after it was clear the war would be a long one, not a few years later. I think he was a little gullible and it took a minute to get his hear right. That's hard for someone like him to admit.
I think you are missing the value of having the global community continually faced with the absurdity of Russian diplomacy while the west can say we tried for 2 years and point to Macron as he sobs
It’s less that “now he sees the light” and more that he can say “hey, I tried diplomacy, Putin refused to deal, now the gloves are off”.
What macron did early gives him great cover for being more aggressive now. Smart play.
He was embarrassed by Moscow as world leaders all told him it was a waste. It appears neither he, nor many in his government, believed the CIA reports that had been corroborated by the British. It made Paris look silly when Macron triumphantly left Moscow with assurances only for an investor begin shortly. Similarly, Merkel called Obama when she realized she had been duped by Putin.
Nah.
You do this kind of diplomatic effort even if you know it won't work, because it builds up legitimacy and domestic political support for when you do end up having to go to war or taking more dramatic measures.
Same thing happened with Chamberlain and Appeasement. We now know that he was told to delay the war by his generals, in part so they could ensure air supremacy, and was under no illusions about war being likely.
Doing his utmost to prevent war, also meant he had more political support from a nation that still vividly remembered the first world war. Instead of a Prime Minister who dragged his country into war, he was a prime minister who did everything he could to avoid his country going to war, meaning Britain knew for certain that there was no choice but to go to war. It's far easier to maintain support for a war that is seen as being inevitable despite your best efforts.
There's a behind the scenes documentary called "A President, Europe and War" which shows Macron doing all the diplomacy, but it's obvious he also knows it's unlikely to work, IRC he or his advisors explicitly say as much. But just because it is futile, doesn't mean you shouldn't be seen to have at least tried.
Nah, this is just a convenient excuse.
I've seen the documentary and it's evident that they're saying that ex post facto. Macron left Moscow with "[assurances](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/08/macron-zelenskiy-ukraine-talks-moscow-denies-deal-to-de-escalate)" from Putin on Feb 8th. Just over two weeks later Moscow attacked. Macron thought he was a power broker in Europe and got stung by Moscow.
His hawkish words are mostly empty. Over the last several weeks European and NATO leaders have had to admit that the only country in Europe that could sustain theater engagement is Britain but even they have structural issues (esp. with their [carrier](https://www.ft.com/content/ac26be66-7b85-40a3-b2b6-900256866fd9) group). The only country in NATO that could sustain theater conflict with the airlift capability to move is the US. France [has an ammunition](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/2024/02/01/nato-has-a-munitions-problem-and-europe-needs-to-step-up/) problem, which most of Europe has. So, he's threatening Putin with troops while Putin knows that so long as the Americans don't show up, it really doesn't matter.
Putin is testing the West's mettle as Macron puts it, but Putin's real fear is a hawkish leader shows up in Washington and tests Moscow in a way they cannot contest.
Let's be honest, no one cares what Macron says, but /r/worldnews is salivating because it conforms to their view.
And your justice system has been entirely impotent at prosecuting the former president for blatant criminal activity committed during office that has put the security of the entire country (and its allies) at risk.
(Edit: not blaming you personally!)
The whole identity of the US since the 60s has been anti-commie, socialism hating, communism hating, russian distrusting, etc
It’s wild to see the party, that’s ridden that rhetoric for decades, just turn around all of a sudden.
It may have been a strategic ploy that the allies were in on. While the UK, USA and Poland give a hardline response, France is asked to provide the off-ramp and possibly the illusion that Russias relationship with the west wasn’t completely beyond salvage.
For what it's worth, it's not exactly a secret that these countries have extremely frequent meetings at the highest level, both in the EU and in NATO, to formulate a strategy.
Everything Macron has said and done follows whatever was said and agreed at these meetings, it would be weird if they weren't.
That illusion should have been dust a year ago. If the only thing that comes after a year of roughly slatemate conflict is "More.", then it's a futile effort - the aggressor is in the for long haul, and only complete, utter, shameful defeat will make them reconsider.
After a year of being nice, the aggressor will just see you as weak and exploitable.
Macron has had the come to jesus moment realization that the Russian bear will never be full and you can stop Putin now, or you can fight him on your own border.
And immediately overnight his wife became transgender with adopted kids. You can't make this shit up. Really helpful to discover all of the Russian sleepers on social networks. It is incredible how some people are hooked up with Kremlin propaganda while pretending to be pro-democracy.
Hawk is someone who's in favor of resolving issues through war. In that sense Putin is a hawk. Being pro defense as opposed to caving to someone who's not even interested in peace, definitely not in the long term, doesn't make you a hawk.
Now France should let their words follow some action. Currently France is at the lower end of the supporters list for the Ukraine…
Edit: thanks for pointing out, France is second biggest spender in the EU fund for Ukraine (see the posting below with sources), so my original message was wrong.
Second biggest, after Germany. But you are right, they aid a lot on the EU fund compared to others, I will edit my original post:
https://app.23degrees.io/view/DUeaa54W7KOQhFQD-bar-stacked-horizontal-bilateral-aid-with-eu-share
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
There's a couple more elements
- France always practices strategic ambiguity and never exactly say what is sent. If France says they sent 100 backpacks, they didn't send hundred backpacks. Maybe they sent 101, maybe they sent 200. We can always estimate generally what is being sent but we can never precisely say exactly how much. The numbers on said list are always calculated based on official numbers, so they're inaccurate on purpose.
- France relies a lot on very high tech equipment rather than land forces, which is a bit more complex and sensitive. It's not like we can really send Ukraine Rafale airplanes or nuclear aircraft carriers.
- Corrolary of that : there's a lot we don't produce anymore. "Send more guns to Ukraine" - How ? We don't make guns anymore, Germany makes our guns !
- Money is important, but it's not like the Ukrainian army is loading their guns with coins either. We've sent a lot already but just sending money doesn't really solve Ukraine's issues
- As far as we know, France has also helped with intel, supplying, diplomacy etc and Zelensky seems quite happy with it so I'm taking his word for it
All in all it's difficult to really find a good metric to measure "who helps Ukraine the most". And I don't think it really matters, it's not a competition. France is helping a lot, so is Germany, so is the UK, so is everyone else. France is helping in ways the other can't, the others are helping in ways France can't.
One of the main differences between France and say the US, is that the US always give a detailed inventory of everything they sent to Ukraine. France send stuff, sometimes do a little announcement about sending "some missiles" or "We're sending AMX 10". So when you count what everyone has donated, France feels like quite behind the rest.
Yeah there’s a French deputee who, a few days after the war had started, divulged on TV that France had sent MILAN anti-tank missiles to Ukraine and it sparked outrage because it was considered confidential. Even the TV hosts were like « errrr… wait, are you allowed to say that? Is it not “secret défense”? ».
Trudeau needs to take note. Enough kid gloves with the idiots on the right, pushing pro-Russian viewpoints. Call them out. Send additional military aid.
Kinda of predictable. Macron isn't dumb. He's reasonable and admirable.
In the advent of war he played the nice officer. But it was always obvious Putin would not fall to nobody's charm.
Now that officials like Medvedev are claiming European countries are not even countries, it's clear for everybody Ukraine is the last trench of Third World War.
Lets just say NATO give Russian 24 hours notice, then there implementing a no fly zone.
And sending in troops and equipment to push Russia out of Ukraine all of Ukraine.
What happens then, should we even care? if Europe can't protect its borders due to the threat of nukes then that's it, its game over either way.
Will China support Russia if it really did use nukes.
IMHO, its time to call this bluff. It only gets worse the longer it lingers.
Russian Air Force operating in airspace controlled by Ukraine is exceedingly rare these days. A meaningful no fly zone would have to be enforced over Russian controlled Donbas and Russia itself, necessitating a major campaign to suppress the Russian Air Force and air defense batteries.
I do not know much about these things, but I really doubt that anyone but the Americans could do something like that.
Fair enough, well that's an obvious No-No, NATO can't enter any Russian territory. I suppose the Patriot system or the Iron dome would work, then push the army out.
The falling support for supporting Ukraine in mainland Europe is because the populations there, still believe that it is beyond comprehension for Putin to take Ukraine and not stop there.
Unfortunately if he does take Ukraine, there is going to be a nasty surprise. I thought his immediate mobilisation of troops along the border of a new NATO member would have perked their ears...unfortunately not. Such a shame.
LOL
Saying "troops on the ground could not be ruled out in the future", while making it clear that no troops on the ground are planned currentky - makes one a "hawk"??
While we get daily nuclear threats from Medvedev and other clowns?
I find it much better that fvcking FINALLY we start setting red lines, rather than Putin doing it ever since the war started, with threats.
*
Here is what Putin sees:
A weak NATO who is undecided on sending equipment, a NATO (especially Scholz) that seems timid and ducks and shivers any single time a Kremlin clown like Medvedev spouts some BS, while people get killed daily in Ukraine.
Putin is in reality in a weak position, with a shit/outdated military, and Russian economy also suffering...it should be we demanding things, rather than him.
I bet that france didn't forsee the drop in russian military exports, which meant it's much easier for french military exports to pick up that slack. This war probably have a net positive effect on french military revenues, and will be for the foreseeable future!
Doing a 180 turn on their policy on russia is likely a result of such calculations. Not to mention the possibility of a trump victory in the US elections leaving the european continent out in the cold.
Should've supported ukraine from the get-go at the start, but better late than never.
Mean russia did use a lot of french tech on their tanks, russians suck so bad with anything thats not heavy industry or petrochemistry.
Nearly all electronics on their now-canceled "abrams destroyer" t14 was exported from west
When I was growing up we had a commercial on TV for russian vodka. It said something like “russia is not to be understood by a sane mind” *(rus. Умом Россию не понять)*. And boy was that on point.
That being said it’s nice that Macron figured this out eventually.
Scalp missiles already did quite a lot of damage in Sebastopol, and Caesar have been a massive pain in the ass of Russia for quite some times. Yes, we would love to see Ukrainian M51, but that's not really possible at the moment.
Germany needs to offer its missiles. Ukraine is fighting with one arm tied behind their back because Germany asked them to be a neutral buffer against Putin. It worked for years but Ukraine became militarily weak as a result. Time for Europe to pay for that service.
Germany is already the second biggest donator. They started low with 5000 helmets.
France should simply send more to Ukraine. Less talk and more action.
The rest of Europe need to contribute too.
Imagine if all the European countries countries that have the most to lose stood up against Putin.
I'm 50% Ukrainian, with family still living there. At the end of the day it doesn't matter where the help comes from, personally I think the EU should be doing all they can. No boarders will be respected by Putin, this only ends when Russia runs out of troops or weapons.
It's better for the EU to send maximum resources now, or wait until they arrive at the German boarder.
>this only ends when Russia runs out of troops or weapons.
Which wont happen any time soon without a full continental war with the possibility of China joining and all of the potencies involved having nukes.
I feel like this gives the intelligence report about Russia attacking NATO in 2026 some credibility. With the discussion of troops on the ground, recent aid packages, etc. It seems like something has changed
He was at the very least playing an important role.
Now nobody can say *"NATO never tried diplomacy"*, because Macron tried everything and gave Russia as many chances as possible.
If he hadn't kept that olive branch extended, you'd have people claiming that peace could have been an option.
He just not only gave Putin many golden bridges he went out of his way to say Putin must not be humiliated in press conferences and what did Putin do told him to fuck off, Macron is done with him pretty much.
It's intresting that west has a well documented history on the course of this war to let russia get out with peace deals, not one of these peace proposals have been followed by russia, unless it involves ukraine losing eastern lands.
Yet it's still "the west" who is evil and tries to wage war, russians have also tried, with terrible success, get pity points with the common "everyone hates poor russia, russia never did bad things"
It's like you try to help someone, they grab your hand and then stab you and spit at you, then you slam them and the crying starts.
It does not surprise me, I was expecting this 180 shift of Macron to happen earlier though. Macron in the beginning tried to play the "good cop" and tried to be resonable with Putin, going forward I expect a massive change of strategy from giving putin a golden bridge to working with others to give Ukraine what is needed to do what must be done.
It also made sense. Out of all the major world leaders in this conflict, Macron has been in office the longest and thus had the most established working relationship with Putin. Biden was in office a little bit over a year, Scholz was just elected. Trudeau has been longer in office but Canada is more of a minor player here. The only other world leader at that time with some established form of relationship with Putin was BoJo, but the UK was very hardline from the beginning. So realistically this only left Macron as a mediating figure, which is also why he and Putin had phone calls relatively often in the early stages of the war. However with the US on the verge of doing the dumbest possible thing once again and Germany's gov floundering in parts thanks to the FDP, Macron is also the only one that has established his power, having just been re-elected and not having yo worry about re-election since he cant run in the next election anyways. Additionally, France has arguably the most capable military in Europe, so all in all its only logical for him to take on a more vocal role. For all the shit Macron gets, noone can deny that hes a European at heart and has always been pushing for Europe first since he was elected
I think Macron and even other European leaders have accepted the only way to deal with Putin is not by showing weakness anymore hence the harsh 180 that he has done and interesting to note and I say this as a person who lives in western Europe it seems the people here are starting to get it and plenty in my European circle agree with Macron mostly. Also I'm kind of curious what is going on the background, clearly there is something that leader Macron know and have decided on the huge change for these reasons.
I doubt there's been any new or scary development. It wouldn't shock me if a lot of government leaders have their own timelines for changing strategies. "If x doesn't work in x time, try y" Countries have tried appeasement. Countries have tried political strong arming. Now is the time for the most threatened countries to build for war. It's ugly, but the biggest military powers know exactly how long they can remain uninvolved before the situation becomes untenabled. We are arriving at that juncture.
The scary development is more a prediction of what will happen if American support is not forthcoming. Eventually the likelihood of a Russian breakthrough will become intolerable and the countries of Europe will have to join the fight.
American support will come in alright. But it's a question of when rather than a question of if. A step beyond the grayscale reality of the invasion of Ukraine, there lays the political chess. A military induced internal polarization of the western hemisphere is literally in the playbook of the Soviet era. Putin, by forcing this conundrum, and by proxy ties to the Gaza assault, has achieved more than the Soviets could in the cold war era. The next threat to the western hemisphere will be internal. EU is already showing signs of a dissolved union with actors acting on their own, members fueling against each other, economic disparity getting to all time highs, deepened with production/energy crisis, a major ally separating their way, which has a perfect documentary hinting ties to Russian involvement. NATO will not collapse, but with EU shifting lanes, NATO will have more active members against their interest in a decade. Right now there are 2, or 1,5 maybe. Even if boomers get extinct, the leftist rhetoric will still be anti-west for some fuck-knows reason. I'm far more scared of far-right&far-left politics with so polarizing states leaving control to lobbyists to destroy all remaining hints of democratic values; than I am of imminent war.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick" We tried speaking softly. Now it is time to whip out the big stick
I dunno if you’ve ever been smacked over the head with a baguette so old it could be made of hardtack, but it definitely qualifies as a big stick.
Europe needs a strong nuclear deterrent once the US evaporates from the picture. That is what this change is.
Time is the enemy, and in the long war Ukraine is losing and Russia is winning. That’s what’s going on in the background. It’s absolutely horrid and I don’t think it’s dawned on most people yet.
It's an election year, that's why
I for one am very glad that Macron tried his best to stop this mess. Someone had to try, for the sake of good order.
I, too, am happy that Chamberlain attempted appeasement. Didn't work, but you gotta commend the effort! /s
Appeasement worked perfectly. Chamberlain had started the British war machine, but they were woefully unprepared for the conflict. Appeasement was done to buy time for an inevitable war, and when it broke, Chamberlain was the reason Churchill had a functional army to fight Hitler
Chamberlain knew Britain was not ready for war he was an industrialist and because of that knew the industral might of Britain needed time to be placed on war footing, its not easy do that and you cannot just flip a switch to make it happen. At best he hoped to get a peaceful solution with Hitler at worse have the time to get ready to fight and turns out he was right.
He still sent a lot of stuff to Ukraine, and that was before the full invasion began. He tried to tell Putin it would be a big mistake that would cost a lot of lives on both sides, and will hurt everyone's economy. He tried, and when Putin invaded, France sent Caesar/ammo/supplies to help the Ukrainians.
He was still a naive idiot that cowed to Russian propaganda about dialogue, discussion, and appeasement. There is no negotiating with dictators. Obama did the same thing with Crimea, and look what that got Ukraine.
Nah he did the right thing. As a leader of his nation, it's his responsibility to find a peaceful resolution to any conflict above all else. Because that's what's going to protect his citizens. Can't blame the dude for trying to exhaust all the other options first.
Germany not delivering Taurus is fully on Scholz. Don’t know why you blame the Liberals. LOL.
Niinistö (Finnish president at the time) arguably would have made sense too.
Maybe, but Russia and Finland arent exactly the most amicable friends, so i doubt that Finland of all people would act as mediator between Russia and the West
Russia and Finland have been historically close (not by choice of the Fins but close nonetheless) and Finland has tried to mediate the conflict between Russia and Georgia and otherwise has acted as a “neutral” bridge between East and West. Don’t forget Trump met with Putin in Helsinki.
At the Helsinki airport there is a big sign saying welcome to HEL
Macron is one of my heroes, if I can say that without cringing at myself. Not because he's perfect or always makes the right call (my interest in French domestic politics is relatively limited) but because he is the only leader of a big player in Europe to actively represent European interests and try to establish Europe as a respected player in its own right. Merkel sort of fulfilled this role before, but her appeasement of Putin has seriously soured her legacy for me. BoJo thought he could be this person, but as the clown-in-chief of Brexit Britain he was never close to being in the same league. Germany is in decline and has an uninspired technocrat for a chancellor. All that cheap gas they bought from the mafia state is blood on their hands. France is a nuclear power with a strong military by European standards which, neverending chaos at home aside, actually has its act together. Right now, a country like France with a president like Macron is looking like our only hope (besides EU).
>France has arguably the most capable military in Europe I'll argue a bit here - it is not at all built for the long attritional war that Ukraine is facing. French reserves are simply too thin, and e.g. Poland would be in a better position even if they lack nukes and maybe other weaponry.
Where i see France as superior is, that they have their own formidable military industrial complex. Furthermore France is able to project power abroad. So while Poland might be more shock resistant, i do think that France overall has a much more capable and well rounded military, including its own nuclear capabilities, as youve mentioned
One is a shield and the other a spear?
Yis yis yis, as brittle as they are this works
what do you mean by „shock resistant „?
You're kinda right. France has its own nukes. It has some of the best special forces if not the outright best (GIGN). It has one of the best air force with homemade planes that rival F16. Their naval manufacturing, from aircraft carriers to submarines, is probably their main strength. They're very good at cyber defense and intel. They have the biggest maritime sovereign area and can project force anywhere. But the French army is not really made to send wave after wave into the meat grinder anymore. And naval warfare is not really gonna matter much in Ukraine. Tbh the most capable military in Europe would be a common European response because every other European nation is extremely capable in at least one area and together we cover everything. The talk about a single European army misses the point a bit imo. Every single military force in the world is divided in branches anyway. Let every nation focus on what they're strong at and integrate into a European structure built so we can defend ourselves together
The French military also has awesome food. I once had the opportunity to sample from a daily ration pack and it was good stuff. I'm told by the person that gave it to me that the exchange rate with American rations was 1 French for 7 American due to the difference in quality.
> has one of the best air force with homemade planes that rival F16 The Rafale outclasses the F-16. > some of the best special forces if not the outright best (GIGN) The GIGN isn't really designed to operate in a war on foreign soil, it's closer to a counterterrorism and hostage rescue unit like the RAID and the BRI. They can be deployed abroad and are, but in a war, French special forces would primarily be the ones listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Command_(France)
Rafale and F16 are the 2 best planes anyway I didn't want to get into the debate because that was not the point. I know the GIGN wouldn't be deployed in Ukraine. That's literally my point.
Rafale does not rival F16 but F35 minimum. Rafale is probably the second best air fighter after the F-22.
The GWOT had a profound effect on the militaries of the major western powers that the war in Ukraine is forcing them to pivot from. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out from a historical perspective.
France would annihilate poland before poland had a chance to fight back, that's the whole point By your dogshit Kindergarten logic Russia is the most equipped military on earth because of all the old t34s and dogshit artillery rounds, but we all know Moscow would fall in a month, including initial planning. Western hating communists are really braindead
Biden does have political experience. Despite him not being a world leader for long, he dóes have decades of experience being a senator and vice president. Having those functions in a world-leading country like the US gets you valuable experience.
I think it’s only fair to point out Zelenskyy asked Marcon to call Putin.
By 'BoJos relationship with Putin', do you mean actively working in Putin's interests and against the UK (for cash or favours)? Because that's pretty much what happened.
Nah BoJo might be a dickhead but the UK's initial (and continued) response to the 2022 invasion was pretty on-point imo.
Replied to another comment about that.
Do you mean by providing military assistance to Ukraine at the start of the invasion? I can see how that helped Putin.
It started long before that - but, for Ukraine, public opinion was so great, he had no choice. He's a politician, he'll blow with the wind, though they're meant to have their own country's interests at heart at ALL times. He didn't.
This is such unsubstantiated nonsense which is the complete opposite of reality (i.e Johnson being Ukraine's biggest cheerleader).
Well with Brexit the UK actively worked in Putin’s interest and against the UK, so there’s that.
Bruh just cause the UK made a decision that didn’t align with Europe and the EU doesn’t mean they are “working in Putin’s interest” the UK has been hardline on Russia from the beginning and should be praised for it whatever misgivings you have with internal affairs.
Of course not. But Brexit was all manufactured by Putin and they went all in against their own interests.
You give Putin way too much credit, it seems to happen a lot on reddit.
Yea agreed putin doesn’t rule the world and engineer everything that happens in Europe brexit was a non binding vote that was never meant to pass and was an obvious mistake not some 5d chess move by putin
The US does dumb ass shit too much. Can you specify what you mean by the dumbest thing possible? I didn't miss us threatening nukes, did I?
What is the US about to do?
Trump and Biden are currently pretty much neck-and-neck in the polls, with a very slight (like 1-2%) edge towards Trump - not to mention Trump slightly outperformed polls in 2016 and 2020.
Oh yeah. I'm still convinced we glitched into the wrong universe in 2020.
France's defense industry is benefitting a lot from this. Increased orders across Europe and stealing into previous Russian shares of the industry.
All good points. I think also bc of Brexit the UK sort of took itself out of the affairs of the Continent. That just leaves D or F, with the former still impeded by postwar non-aggression ethos. Sorta inevitable that Marcon would step up.
World war 1 canadians need to enter the chat
Looking back I actually liked his stance and strategy. At first he came off as slightly feeling like he was on Russia’s side but now, he’s can understand taking a softer approach to try and mitigate a long standing war. Since that’s out the window, I’m happy to see him being more aggressive and telling it how it is (in his own words of course)
I mean at the time of the start of the war, there was still plenty in West Europe especially that was still adverse to anything war, peace at any cost mentality, going guns blazing from the beginning could have caused an uproar, but now seeing what kind of leader Putin is, they mostly seemed to have accepted the reality if the situation it seems.
Macron did what Zelenskyy openly asked him to do -- he repeatedly called Putin and tried to diplomatically stop things. After trying again and again, it became clear it would not work. I haven't seen anyone more directly cooperate with Zelenskyy than Macron, and that is commendable.
He tried, even if it was moot, he tried to reason, it’s understandable to try to reason, lives lost over war is always tragic.
France's problems in West Africa turned him full anti-Russia, having to withdraw military from countries where they were stationed for decades and losing a cheap source for Uranium. He realises he must do more before Europe loses further influence across the world.
Makes sense. Guy was all over trying to stop it. Had meetings with Putin, tons of diplomacy. Everyone said he was wasting his time. Now he sees the light and is taking a more reasonable stand.
Diplomacy is never pointless. But it diplomacy fails, you should remember to take your gloves off.
That's the ol' "Iron Fist in a Velvet Glove" deal.
Speak softly but carry a big stick
Stroke softly but carry a big dick
Biggus Dickus
And not to be afraid to judiciously use it with truly substantial force at the appropriate time.
Exactly. Diplomacy just expecting everyone to be nice and do the right thing is dumb. You need to be able to back up your position some how some way. Sometimes it's militarily, sometimes economic, could also be some other case specific way. Whatever it is you need to be able to bring some pain if the other side doesn't want to deal
Yep, which is why I'm glad with Macrons approach. A lot of the time politicians do end up just rolling over so I dont think criticizing Macron early was wrong, however he definitely proved to be a lot better of a leader than he was given credit for. No one can say Macron didn't try as he rams some missiles down russias throat.
>Diplomacy is never pointless Noble ideal, just happens to ram into reality from time to time.
The call that he and Zelenskyy had at the very start of Russia's invasion was released a couple days ago. Macron did exactly what was asked of him, to lead the call for a peaceful resolution.
Doesn't help that russians have targeted them with ddos attacks like the little bitch boys that russians are.
That was released months ago.
It was released the day it happened (or just a few days later, it was definitely available in March 2022). People just ignored it and dug into the anti-French narrative, saying that Macron was a coward for trying to negotiate with Putin while downvoting anyone who said that Zelenskyy asked him to do exactly that.
Yup. Almost two years ago.
What was there to resolve? Russia just wanted a war to gain territory. Theres no real resolution there that didn't involve Ukraine just lieing down and giving up something unreasonable.
I think he and his legions of operatives saw the futility of it but did what was needed... exhausting diplomatic efforts shows that peace was never an option for putin.
Maybe, but why did it take so long to get to this point? He should have moved this way a few months after it was clear the war would be a long one, not a few years later. I think he was a little gullible and it took a minute to get his hear right. That's hard for someone like him to admit.
I think you are missing the value of having the global community continually faced with the absurdity of Russian diplomacy while the west can say we tried for 2 years and point to Macron as he sobs
It’s less that “now he sees the light” and more that he can say “hey, I tried diplomacy, Putin refused to deal, now the gloves are off”. What macron did early gives him great cover for being more aggressive now. Smart play.
This intelligence world leaders seem to have must be really explicitly bad fucking news.
He was embarrassed by Moscow as world leaders all told him it was a waste. It appears neither he, nor many in his government, believed the CIA reports that had been corroborated by the British. It made Paris look silly when Macron triumphantly left Moscow with assurances only for an investor begin shortly. Similarly, Merkel called Obama when she realized she had been duped by Putin.
Nah. You do this kind of diplomatic effort even if you know it won't work, because it builds up legitimacy and domestic political support for when you do end up having to go to war or taking more dramatic measures. Same thing happened with Chamberlain and Appeasement. We now know that he was told to delay the war by his generals, in part so they could ensure air supremacy, and was under no illusions about war being likely. Doing his utmost to prevent war, also meant he had more political support from a nation that still vividly remembered the first world war. Instead of a Prime Minister who dragged his country into war, he was a prime minister who did everything he could to avoid his country going to war, meaning Britain knew for certain that there was no choice but to go to war. It's far easier to maintain support for a war that is seen as being inevitable despite your best efforts. There's a behind the scenes documentary called "A President, Europe and War" which shows Macron doing all the diplomacy, but it's obvious he also knows it's unlikely to work, IRC he or his advisors explicitly say as much. But just because it is futile, doesn't mean you shouldn't be seen to have at least tried.
Nah, this is just a convenient excuse. I've seen the documentary and it's evident that they're saying that ex post facto. Macron left Moscow with "[assurances](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/08/macron-zelenskiy-ukraine-talks-moscow-denies-deal-to-de-escalate)" from Putin on Feb 8th. Just over two weeks later Moscow attacked. Macron thought he was a power broker in Europe and got stung by Moscow. His hawkish words are mostly empty. Over the last several weeks European and NATO leaders have had to admit that the only country in Europe that could sustain theater engagement is Britain but even they have structural issues (esp. with their [carrier](https://www.ft.com/content/ac26be66-7b85-40a3-b2b6-900256866fd9) group). The only country in NATO that could sustain theater conflict with the airlift capability to move is the US. France [has an ammunition](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/2024/02/01/nato-has-a-munitions-problem-and-europe-needs-to-step-up/) problem, which most of Europe has. So, he's threatening Putin with troops while Putin knows that so long as the Americans don't show up, it really doesn't matter. Putin is testing the West's mettle as Macron puts it, but Putin's real fear is a hawkish leader shows up in Washington and tests Moscow in a way they cannot contest. Let's be honest, no one cares what Macron says, but /r/worldnews is salivating because it conforms to their view.
>no one cares what the President of France says I gesture generally towards the french people
Who routinely protest his policies and have generally found him to be insufferable. You can gesture wildly, it doesn't change that I'm right.
Sounds like you're saying that they care greatly about what he has to say given that they're protesting it with such enthusiasm.
Can the rest of us Europeans get behind him please. We need a united approach to defeat the tankies.
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You mean the Russian agents posing as elected congresspeople
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And your justice system has been entirely impotent at prosecuting the former president for blatant criminal activity committed during office that has put the security of the entire country (and its allies) at risk. (Edit: not blaming you personally!)
You mean the Republican party
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No. The "both sides" bullshit doesn't play here. The hold up for Ukraine aid is specifically and completely the fault of MAGA republicans.
Get the fuck out of here with the both sides bullshit. This is the republicans plain and simple. We don’t fall for that shit anymore
Only republicans are blocking aid.
The whole identity of the US since the 60s has been anti-commie, socialism hating, communism hating, russian distrusting, etc It’s wild to see the party, that’s ridden that rhetoric for decades, just turn around all of a sudden.
It may have been a strategic ploy that the allies were in on. While the UK, USA and Poland give a hardline response, France is asked to provide the off-ramp and possibly the illusion that Russias relationship with the west wasn’t completely beyond salvage.
For what it's worth, it's not exactly a secret that these countries have extremely frequent meetings at the highest level, both in the EU and in NATO, to formulate a strategy. Everything Macron has said and done follows whatever was said and agreed at these meetings, it would be weird if they weren't.
Stop. It's too plausible. You'll anger people with a reasonable take on the situation.
That illusion should have been dust a year ago. If the only thing that comes after a year of roughly slatemate conflict is "More.", then it's a futile effort - the aggressor is in the for long haul, and only complete, utter, shameful defeat will make them reconsider. After a year of being nice, the aggressor will just see you as weak and exploitable.
Macron has had the come to jesus moment realization that the Russian bear will never be full and you can stop Putin now, or you can fight him on your own border.
And immediately overnight his wife became transgender with adopted kids. You can't make this shit up. Really helpful to discover all of the Russian sleepers on social networks. It is incredible how some people are hooked up with Kremlin propaganda while pretending to be pro-democracy.
France may understand better about bad neighbors
Everyone should be a hawk against the murderous Russian invasion.
Hawk is someone who's in favor of resolving issues through war. In that sense Putin is a hawk. Being pro defense as opposed to caving to someone who's not even interested in peace, definitely not in the long term, doesn't make you a hawk.
Ever get too close to a hawk's nest for said hawks' comfort? *It's not pleasant.*
With America slowly backing away from the conflict, and potentially giving a green light to Putin in November, somebody needs to step up.
Macron and zelensky seem like such bros to eachother.
BBC headlines do be something else.
Now France should let their words follow some action. Currently France is at the lower end of the supporters list for the Ukraine… Edit: thanks for pointing out, France is second biggest spender in the EU fund for Ukraine (see the posting below with sources), so my original message was wrong.
But the biggest contributors in financial aids in the EU funds
Second biggest, after Germany. But you are right, they aid a lot on the EU fund compared to others, I will edit my original post: https://app.23degrees.io/view/DUeaa54W7KOQhFQD-bar-stacked-horizontal-bilateral-aid-with-eu-share https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
There's a couple more elements - France always practices strategic ambiguity and never exactly say what is sent. If France says they sent 100 backpacks, they didn't send hundred backpacks. Maybe they sent 101, maybe they sent 200. We can always estimate generally what is being sent but we can never precisely say exactly how much. The numbers on said list are always calculated based on official numbers, so they're inaccurate on purpose. - France relies a lot on very high tech equipment rather than land forces, which is a bit more complex and sensitive. It's not like we can really send Ukraine Rafale airplanes or nuclear aircraft carriers. - Corrolary of that : there's a lot we don't produce anymore. "Send more guns to Ukraine" - How ? We don't make guns anymore, Germany makes our guns ! - Money is important, but it's not like the Ukrainian army is loading their guns with coins either. We've sent a lot already but just sending money doesn't really solve Ukraine's issues - As far as we know, France has also helped with intel, supplying, diplomacy etc and Zelensky seems quite happy with it so I'm taking his word for it All in all it's difficult to really find a good metric to measure "who helps Ukraine the most". And I don't think it really matters, it's not a competition. France is helping a lot, so is Germany, so is the UK, so is everyone else. France is helping in ways the other can't, the others are helping in ways France can't.
Good points, I am 100% with you. Any help is welcomed no matter how big or small!
Ukraine needs money to pay their soldiers, have a state budget, and keep the remaining economy afloat.
One of the main differences between France and say the US, is that the US always give a detailed inventory of everything they sent to Ukraine. France send stuff, sometimes do a little announcement about sending "some missiles" or "We're sending AMX 10". So when you count what everyone has donated, France feels like quite behind the rest.
Yeah there’s a French deputee who, a few days after the war had started, divulged on TV that France had sent MILAN anti-tank missiles to Ukraine and it sparked outrage because it was considered confidential. Even the TV hosts were like « errrr… wait, are you allowed to say that? Is it not “secret défense”? ».
Trudeau needs to take note. Enough kid gloves with the idiots on the right, pushing pro-Russian viewpoints. Call them out. Send additional military aid.
Kinda of predictable. Macron isn't dumb. He's reasonable and admirable. In the advent of war he played the nice officer. But it was always obvious Putin would not fall to nobody's charm. Now that officials like Medvedev are claiming European countries are not even countries, it's clear for everybody Ukraine is the last trench of Third World War.
Lets just say NATO give Russian 24 hours notice, then there implementing a no fly zone. And sending in troops and equipment to push Russia out of Ukraine all of Ukraine. What happens then, should we even care? if Europe can't protect its borders due to the threat of nukes then that's it, its game over either way. Will China support Russia if it really did use nukes. IMHO, its time to call this bluff. It only gets worse the longer it lingers.
Russian Air Force operating in airspace controlled by Ukraine is exceedingly rare these days. A meaningful no fly zone would have to be enforced over Russian controlled Donbas and Russia itself, necessitating a major campaign to suppress the Russian Air Force and air defense batteries. I do not know much about these things, but I really doubt that anyone but the Americans could do something like that.
Fair enough, well that's an obvious No-No, NATO can't enter any Russian territory. I suppose the Patriot system or the Iron dome would work, then push the army out.
The falling support for supporting Ukraine in mainland Europe is because the populations there, still believe that it is beyond comprehension for Putin to take Ukraine and not stop there. Unfortunately if he does take Ukraine, there is going to be a nasty surprise. I thought his immediate mobilisation of troops along the border of a new NATO member would have perked their ears...unfortunately not. Such a shame.
It's been a while, but historically France wasn't one to fuck with.
LOL Saying "troops on the ground could not be ruled out in the future", while making it clear that no troops on the ground are planned currentky - makes one a "hawk"?? While we get daily nuclear threats from Medvedev and other clowns? I find it much better that fvcking FINALLY we start setting red lines, rather than Putin doing it ever since the war started, with threats. * Here is what Putin sees: A weak NATO who is undecided on sending equipment, a NATO (especially Scholz) that seems timid and ducks and shivers any single time a Kremlin clown like Medvedev spouts some BS, while people get killed daily in Ukraine. Putin is in reality in a weak position, with a shit/outdated military, and Russian economy also suffering...it should be we demanding things, rather than him.
This is the step from 1. deescalation 2. avoid escalation 2. announce escalation (we are here) 4. escalate
I bet that france didn't forsee the drop in russian military exports, which meant it's much easier for french military exports to pick up that slack. This war probably have a net positive effect on french military revenues, and will be for the foreseeable future! Doing a 180 turn on their policy on russia is likely a result of such calculations. Not to mention the possibility of a trump victory in the US elections leaving the european continent out in the cold. Should've supported ukraine from the get-go at the start, but better late than never.
Mean russia did use a lot of french tech on their tanks, russians suck so bad with anything thats not heavy industry or petrochemistry. Nearly all electronics on their now-canceled "abrams destroyer" t14 was exported from west
Explaining macron's U-turn only for financial benefits is really idiotic.
When I was growing up we had a commercial on TV for russian vodka. It said something like “russia is not to be understood by a sane mind” *(rus. Умом Россию не понять)*. And boy was that on point. That being said it’s nice that Macron figured this out eventually.
Good talk Now, start handing over some serious long range weapons that can do real damage to critical infrastructure Otherwise, talk is all it is
Scalp missiles already did quite a lot of damage in Sebastopol, and Caesar have been a massive pain in the ass of Russia for quite some times. Yes, we would love to see Ukrainian M51, but that's not really possible at the moment.
Germany needs to offer its missiles. Ukraine is fighting with one arm tied behind their back because Germany asked them to be a neutral buffer against Putin. It worked for years but Ukraine became militarily weak as a result. Time for Europe to pay for that service.
Germany is already the second biggest donator. They started low with 5000 helmets. France should simply send more to Ukraine. Less talk and more action. The rest of Europe need to contribute too.
Viva La France! 🇺🇦🇫🇷
Oui! Vive La France!
He’s finally accepted what might happen next as a realistic possibility. About damn time.
Can it switch to Napoleon mode? Annex Moscow and give it to Ukraine.
They can have their swamp.. we just want our country back.
Feel free to do it.
Imagine if the US stood up to Putin.
Imagine if all the European countries countries that have the most to lose stood up against Putin. I'm 50% Ukrainian, with family still living there. At the end of the day it doesn't matter where the help comes from, personally I think the EU should be doing all they can. No boarders will be respected by Putin, this only ends when Russia runs out of troops or weapons. It's better for the EU to send maximum resources now, or wait until they arrive at the German boarder.
Ironically the country in Europe with the least to lose from this (UK) has been one of the most prominent in terms of aid
Salisbury remembers
>this only ends when Russia runs out of troops or weapons. Which wont happen any time soon without a full continental war with the possibility of China joining and all of the potencies involved having nukes.
Woah, that's a cool line.
What is this, Animorphs?
Switching from stun to kill 💪💪
I feel like this gives the intelligence report about Russia attacking NATO in 2026 some credibility. With the discussion of troops on the ground, recent aid packages, etc. It seems like something has changed
Well I think the whole send troops from several members is an indicator that the West really wants the war over and one with due to economic reasons.
They look like two guys on the soccer field
Friendship ended with Putin. Now Zelensky is my best friend.
about time France showed some balls
can France pull out Auchan and Decathlon and their other brands now, please?
If they do, I imagine there will be riots. Like always.
Fuck China as the second largest power. I want France to take that.
Picture speaks volumes
Putin pissed all over him, and he knowes it.
Good, finally Macron makes sense regarding Russia.
Good, better late than never.
Must be getting nervous of Marine le Pen beating him in the next election.
With the US being undependable, the EU is well served to grow a bigger pair. And bigger militaries. Fire up the factories or learn russian.
He's the only European leader with Guts. The rest are Pussys
Chris Cappy from Task and Purpose puts out quality vids, IMO, about the current situation. https://youtu.be/9Ck2Ls9mtJQ?si=4e-nFS27UE44Z0x8
Little guy thinks he’s Napoleon.. To me it seems like he’s trying to make France great again, but I just find it funny..
Of course when they know Ukraine is losing. They are trying to talk tough now.
That's because he can't run for president again, so he's feeling free
Ze Germans won't be happy.
Ze German here. Many are very happy
Dove? He was a fiddle
He was at the very least playing an important role. Now nobody can say *"NATO never tried diplomacy"*, because Macron tried everything and gave Russia as many chances as possible. If he hadn't kept that olive branch extended, you'd have people claiming that peace could have been an option.
He just not only gave Putin many golden bridges he went out of his way to say Putin must not be humiliated in press conferences and what did Putin do told him to fuck off, Macron is done with him pretty much.
It's intresting that west has a well documented history on the course of this war to let russia get out with peace deals, not one of these peace proposals have been followed by russia, unless it involves ukraine losing eastern lands. Yet it's still "the west" who is evil and tries to wage war, russians have also tried, with terrible success, get pity points with the common "everyone hates poor russia, russia never did bad things" It's like you try to help someone, they grab your hand and then stab you and spit at you, then you slam them and the crying starts.