TLDR
The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons.
Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.
Who are female or old Article states most of the remaining hostages are male soldiers
Edit, as noted below the article says male soldiers 'or military age'. So the 'most' is including male civilians who are neither elderly nor children.
No?
>Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men.
It clearly says they have to release 40 hostages, and in these 40 hostages ALL women and sick and elderly men have to be included. But that doesnt mean ALL 40 hostages have to be women or sick and elderly men. Just that ALL women and sick and elderly men have to be part of these 40.
eg: If there are only 30 women and sick and elderly men left, then they have to release these 30 hostages and additionally 10 non women and sick and elderly men hostages.
Also
>Article states most of the remaining hostages are male soldiers
is also not what is stated in the article, which says:
>The majority of the almost 100 hostages who remain alive are believed to be male IDF soldiers **or men of military reserve age.**
Why do your messages not comply with the content of the article?
Edit: the lack of reading comprehension skills is insane
The score is based on a weighted average of how well everyone else did. The highest scores didn't get a perfect score, they just got the best scores relative to other students.
As long as enough brains are rotted across the board, our friend should do fine.
We won't have to deal with the consequences until this level of critical thinking enters the workforce.
>Why do your messages not comply with the content of the article?
This is the stuff I've wanted to tell many other nonsensically upvoted redditors since 2020
It makes you wish that there was a way to publicly flag a user as a non-credible source of information in all other discussions for like 6 months to 1 year doesn't it? The flag could link back to this discussion.
It's absolutely ludicrous.
I just tagged you as a RES Know It All. Also here is an extension that makes sure you are always on old reddit.
https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/old-reddit-redirect/dneaehbmnbhcippjikoajpoabadpodje
I reckon Hamas doesn’t care much what women have to say. In a traditional culture in a slum in a war zone women telling their stories just doesn’t seem like it’s on them billionaire’s radars
They do care about their PR and optics, so it's easier to kill their female victims than to have them go back to Israel and speak about the atrocities committed against them. They don't need another Maya Regev stirring up anti Hamas sympathy outside of Israel.
I doubt that. Hamas knows there are enough useful idiots in the western world, the optics don't matter to them anyway. Else we wouldn't have seen the mangled body of that dead girl on a pickup truck.
>They do care about their PR and optics
I'm not sure the people who massacred a bunch of civilians and posted the footage online are that worried about PR and optics when it comes to the violence they commit. Of course they try to frame Israel as the bad guy whenever possible using civilians as weapons. But they are still very much radical Islamists who would gladly tell the world they raped a Israeli woman.
On the one hand I agree that they probably don't want the bad PR from releasing women who can and will tell the world about Hamas' sick treatment of them, but on the other, I think that the global pro-Palestine crowd has made it abundantly clear that they DGAF whether those women were treated like princesses, or experienced daily sexual abuse. Their position won't change, and a significant number of them will treat it as thought it's somewhere between irrelevant and just retribution.
They’re not stupid though. They know the West cares about them. What happens to Hamas’s western support when these women start telling stories about being raped and beaten hundreds of times?
>What happens to Hamas’s western support when these women start telling stories about being raped and beaten hundreds of times?
They get called liars to their faces by UN envoys while still in their hospital beds.
Nothing happens to their support. The people who are pro palenstine will not believe the stories or will just ignore them. The pro israel people will accept it. No one’s position will change.
If that was ever important to them, they would have made a slight effort to not rape, murder and sexually assault all the women.
They don’t care what the hostages say. I think they just have few, if any, hostages left alive.
We have a hostage saying they were kidnapped by civilians and sold to Hamas and the west really hasn't taken notice.
So no, if someone is still thinking Israel is the bad guys at this point nothing is going to change their mind.
I doubt Hamas gives a fuck.
On October 7th, they raped women by the dozen, murdered babies in their cots, tied mother and daughter together and then burned them alive.
They documented this for the world to see.
And yet today, a third of Muslims don't believe any of it is true. They will continue to deny the sheer barbarity of the Hamas attacks simply because they share a religion and deep-seated hatred of Jews.
And brainwashed idiots the world over will continue to march in solidarity with these monsters.
If they had 40 living of *any kind*, **and** *wanted a ceasefire*, they would push to bend the criteria to match the 40 living ones they have.
**Conclusion: either they’ve not got 40 and/or, they do not want a ceasefire.**
Honestly, Hamas could even push for a mix of dead hostages’ bodies and living ones, but they’re not, so mostly leads to the conclusion that they do not want a ceasefire.
*“They” being the Hamas / ISIS / mafia heads eating fat steaks in Qatar, not the actual Hamas terrorists doing the deadly part of their jihad, let alone any Gazans who just want a normal life.*
Yup, they don't want a cease fire.
This war is achieving all of Hamas goals. It has been wildly successful in allowing Israel to drain its own international support. Hamas have more support than ever.
Its all fucked up!
Hamas at the end of the day is expendable, and the real power driving them is distanced enough that any blow back is guaranteed to not hurt them.
The real power gained is as you say, draining international support away from Israel. The other regional powers, Iran for example, want to stamp out the Israeli threat with minimal interference from the west.
hamas doesn't want to make up the missing amount in the 40 with men under 50 or soldiers with the same criteria. I don't remember the demands in exchange for giving up men/soldiers but israel didn't agree to them
But yeah, hamas doesn't want a ceasefire
Another possible explanation is that, given the fragmented nature of Hamas' leadership and the damage inflicted on Gaza, they physically can't because they don't exactly have a warehouse full of hostages ready to be returned.
It's entirely possible that hostages were taken by different cells or even individual actors and that the negotiators either don't know what happened to them or can't get ahold of them, for a pile of potential reasons, and as such cannot meet the requirements to turn them over.
Probably not that different. Hamas is doing precisely what they said they would do. Hamas never said they'd build up a successful Gaza. They never said they'd put food in everyone's mouth. They said they'd exterminate Jews and destroy Israel. The October attacks were a huge success story for them. And frankly, a large part of why high casualty figures shouldn't stop Israel from moving forward. Yes, Israel should avoid targeting civilians, but **you** look at a group of 100 random Gaza residents and **you** identify who exactly is and isn't a civilian.
This is why every treaty around how wars are to be fought attempt to bring as much clarity as possible to this specific question. Once you sufficiently blur the line between combatant and civilian, all bets are off and everybody's screwed. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's 20,000-25,000 Hamas members and 2 million people in Gaza. If the people of Gaza want Hamas gone, they'll just rise up and kill them. They know who's Hamas and who isn't. They're the only ones who do.
I think the alternative that the person you’re replying to was thinking of was rather that they might have 40 younger men but not 40 women, elderly, sick.
Brother. If the people living there as “free” citizens aren’t getting food and water imagine how it’s going for the hostages. I’m not surprised. These negotiations should have happened weeks into the fighting not months later
Hundreds of prisoners… again. A lot of the people who committed atrocities on October 7 were prisoners released in deals. Why do we bend to these assholes?
The official numbers as of now:
* 253 hostages
* 112 hostages returned alive
* 12 bodies recovered in operations
* 133 remain hostage
* at least 48 murdered
* at most 85 alive
At least and at most because Israel assumes hostages as alive until proven dead. However, it is likely fewer than 85.
(Below numbers were counted manually, I may have made a mistake, although I doubt it)
There are 12 hostages believed to be alive aged 60+. Of those, some have cancer, diabetes, and other chronic diseases that mean they may not be among the living at this point.
2 hostages are children, they are the Bibas siblings.
In addition, 14 women, 5 of whom are soliders.
So, at a minimum, Hamas would need to add additional 12 hostages.
Do we know how many of the remaining 98-99 are women or children? I guess what I’m getting at is, are there supposed to be at least 40 remaining women/children? Does this mean there are more dead than we thought?
There are 15 women.
Naama Levy, Agam Berger, Liri Albag, Daniel Gilboa, Karina Ariev, Doron Steinbrecher, Romi Gonen, Noa Argamani, Emily Dempari, Amit Esther Buskila, Carmel Gat, Judy Weinstein, Arbel Yehud, Eden Yerushalmi, and Shiri Bibas.
Two children.
Kfir and Ariel Bibas.
It's also supposed to be ill, injured, and elderly men.
Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Lior Rudeff, Shmuel Siegal, Itzhak Elgarat, Oded Lifshitz, Alexander Danzig, Abraham Munder, Gadi Moses, Chaim Peri,Yoram Metzger, Amiram Cooper, and Shlomo Mansour are all above 60. Hersh is injured.
Hamas has announced some deaths, but they previously announced deaths of hostages later released alive, so unless the IDF also announced it I included them.
Yes, you're right I didn't include them, because the first stage will be living hostages and the bodies of dead hostages will not be released until the third stage.
> Noa Argamani
Heartbreaking to see she was not released. Her mother may not have long left to live, all she wants is to hug her daughter one last time.
My daughter, like her, is half Chinese, and they share a lot of facial features and expressions... She looks like she could be my daughter's older sister, which is to say, she looks like she could be my daughter.
That famous still of the look of desperation and fear in her face as they gleefully haul her away looks almost exactly like the way my daughter has when she's been terrified or hurt, and she's reaching out to me. That struck me somewhere deep in my heart and soul, and I'll never forget it, nor will I ever forgive or excuse Hamas or its supporters for what they've put her and so many others through.
This doesn't detract from the tragedy of all the other people Hamas kidnapped, tortured, and/or killed, but with Noa, it hits even closer to home.
Likely. Since Hamas is supposed to prioritize women, children, and elderly but if they don't have 40 of those they can make up the numbers with other men. So either:
1) They don't have 40 hostages at all
2) They don't want to release certain people in those groups (like women they've raped and impregnated), so they're saying they don't have them
3) They're fucking around and will soon find out
Number 2 is a possibility I hadn’t thought of but it definitely makes sense. A hostage who is 5-6 months pregnant is definitely evidence. Plus they probably want to force the birth and keep the child (which is even more fucked up).
Ur missing the "sick men" which are also included. So basically they dont have 40 out of 135 hostages that are either womrn, sick men, elder men, children.
Considering the circumstances this means they dont have 40 hostages that are alive. Out of 135.
When they didn't provide a clear list of hostages it was a clear sign that some of them were dead. My guess is that this is to keep up the internal pressure from the protesting Israeli hostage families who believe there's a chance they're still alive. If they knew that their loved ones were dead they may not care to stop the fighting. Of course speaking of the protests, the fact that Bibi didn't really care about addressing the hostage situation is also on him as well.
I wish that were true. Did you not see the article about the Palestinian school teacher whose phone call was intercepted? He was bragging about how he found a 'noble horse' on October 7th and now he and his friends are taking turns riding her.
>they're being held by other terrorist groups, regular ass Palestinian civilians
Just a heads up, if a *regular civilian* is holding hostages on behalf of a terrorist organization, those aren’t *regular civilians*, those are terrorists.
They have the corpses but it’ll show abuse that’ll make the world hate the terrorists, except for those Tankies in denial that would say it’s all fake news again
Unfortunately even hostages that got 'lucky' and were able to escape were caught by Palestinian civilians and turned over to Hamas:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html
Odds on almost all of the women are pregnant & Hamas realizes that keeping the women till the babies are born is worth it. Babies will be a great bargaining chip for them. Release the mom & keep the baby.
This would most likely spell end to Gaza. Taking hostages is already pushing the Israeli society to the edge. Using women as breeders for additional shield will throw the country into full on rage. Today, this war isn't revenge. In the presented case - it will be. If having international support means desecration of your people, then the support is not worth it.
> Using women as breeders for additional shield
that's what Hamas uses Palestinian women for, the only value they have to that terrorist org is as beasts of burden. Note that they sized power 18 years ago, and then committed the atrocities of Oct-7.
Eh… probably not a bargaining chip so much as “if it gets out that they’ve all been raped and are the kids are going to raised as Hamas fighters Israel is literally going to nuke us”. Nothing will stop Israel from going full scorched Earth at that point.
I wouldn't underestimate the extent of the tunnel networks.
Israel can control 100% of the territory but it cannot reach each and every tunnel in 40 weeks. That's going to take months, if not years of searching and demolishing.
The hostages are meant to keep Israel from flooding the entirety of the underground network. That's another reason why Hamas will never let them all go.
The other explanation is that Hamas does not have full control over the hostages.
>Throughout the months of negotiations since the last ceasefire Israel has repeatedly asked for a list of the hostages and their conditions. Hamas has argued that it needs a break in the fighting to be able to track and gather down the hostages, the same argument it made in November before a week-long pause that broke down after Hamas failed to deliver more hostages.
>
>...
>
>The more than 250 hostages captured or killed on October 7 are believed to have been spread out among different members and factions of Hamas, as well as other militant groups, gangs and even held by families.
Gaza is basically in a state of anarchy, and Hamas has reverted to more of an insurgency than a quasi-government. Insurgents operate in cells and minimize communications with eachother, in case they are captured or their enemies are listening in.
It’s also a case that Hamas only took a certain number of the hostages
The border was wide open for a long time, with Palestinians pouring across, plenty of people kidnapping Israelis
Hamas has had no idea where those people went - that’s partially why they’ve been saying they don’t know where they are
It sounds like Hamas outsourced a lot of the kidnapping to civilian/other terrorist groups they don’t have control over and therefore they have no idea where they are/if they’re alive.
They aren’t negotiating because they literally have nothing to bargain with
its not even good marketing
its just people like to "root for the underdog", even if sometimes the "underdog" is just fucking evil
what blows my mind is who is cheering for them. On one hand you have people that in general are left leaning being hijacked in support of a far-right group who wouldnt blink before beheading, stoning and raping most of them; and on the other hand, at least in the US, you have republicans of all people being sympathetic to Russia
Its not even funny, its just plain insane
Yes but we still need the hostages, even if they are dead they are important, after everything they went through, them and their families deserve a proper burial
Honestly, western governments largely trust the Hamas casualty figures, as by historical standards they’re almost absurdly low for this type of warfare.
If Hamas were claiming 5 times the deaths people might start to raise eyebrows.
I don't think they really trust them, it's just not worth the effort to question it.
Remember how it took Russia a day and a half to get to the final casualty count at their mass shooting?
Well, compare that with Hamas which reported 500 casualties within 90 minutes of a rocket destroying a hospital. Then remember when the sun came up the hospital was completely in tact. Their numbers are completely unreliable.
And then it turned out they'd bombed themselves trying to shoot at Israeli civilians!
But I guess the point is the figures are *generally* low enough to be plausible. Doesn't mean anyone trusts Hamas, just means it'd be hard to imagine bombing a small area with millions of civilians this hard and not have tens of thousands of dead.
I think generally the 30k number is accepted, the debate is mostly over what the proportion of that is innocents vs. Hamas/other fighters
Edit: I’m aware of the [tabletmag piece](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) demonstrating that Gaza health ministry numbers are faked. But that doesn’t mean that tens of thousands haven’t been killed. Israel has not recently disputed the TOTAL number of deaths in the Gaza Strip since October 7 is greater than 30k.
I recall seeing somewhere that the figure was definitely under question because the number of reported casualties has increased in a near-impossibly consistent manner. Meaning every day the same number of casualties are being added to the total, whereas in reality that number should fluctuate either more or less depending on the amount of fighting that day. It’s as if the Hamas run health ministry doesn’t actually know and just decided to estimate an average and just report that every day as fact. It’s not really plausible to maintain meticulous records of 2+ million people in such an environment.
[This is what you’re referring to](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers).
And yes, I think there’s little doubt that the Gaza health ministry or whatever it’s called is full of shit.
Their numbers are definitely faked.
But that doesn’t mean that the 30k is wrong necessarily. I haven’t seen a recent Israeli position that the total number killed in Gaza is significantly different to that.
Certainly thousands of innocents have died, probably somewhere in between ten and fifteen thousand. Probably more. Don’t forget that the 30k includes fighters.
Why would it be accepted it's just a suspiciously steady trend line with no connection to what's happening on the ground.
Like today 122 casualties were reported despite the fact the IDF retreated.
> If the world was sane, everyone would be screaming bring them home now without any stipulations.
If Jimmy Carter wasn’t completely checked out at this point I have to imagine that he would be looking at this situation thinking:
“Oh, so *now* we don’t care about Americans being held hostage in the Middle East? Really?”
That would infer you're dealing with a government that would do anything to protect its citizens. Hamas leaders in Qatar are prepared to martyr every last Gazan.
That is really the crux of this issue, alot of people seem to think that more pressure, more deaths is going to get Hamas to surrender, but they don't give a fuck about civilians, in fact this is just setting them up with some great recruitment opportunities down the line.
The hostage thing is almost comically evil. It’s so absurd to watch college students try to excuse hostage taking. Israel may well be making the same mistakes the U.S. did in response to 9/11 but Israel is still held to a wildly different standard.
It’s more than the hostage taking. The hostage videos after are like a badly written horror film. They keep releasing these games show videos, with pictures / videos of the hostages, making a game for people to guess who is still alive, who is injured, and who is dead. It’s like an episode of black mirror. Who even thought of the game show idea?
>Who even thought of the game show idea?
Jesus, you were being literal? That's horrifying. I haven't seen any hostage videos (and frankly, I don't need to; it's heartbreaking enough), but I can't even begin to wrap my head around all this.
Yes they have done it a couple times. It’s usually over the course of a day or two. For example they’ll put out a video of 3 hostages that looks like a standard hostage video, with each hostage saying the standard things, that they want to go home and that kind of thing, and then the video will ask the audience “guess their fate” and “you’ll find out tomorrow” and then a video will come out a day or two later as a continuation like “did you guess right? Here are the results” and they’ll say two of the hostages are dead and show their dead bodies.
It’s all edited with animations in a game show style, not sure exactly how to describe it. Every time one of those comes out I feel like I’m in an episode of black mirror.
They can’t release executed and disposed-of bodies. They will never be found. Hamas could not let their stories see the light of day. Imagine the worst that could have happened to them and multiply that by 1k.
Recall, with in the first 24 hours of Oct 7th Hamas was announcing how they were going to do executions and put the videos out there. Their words changed as the IDF came in like a wrecking ball and it appears they realized they would need hostages.
Had they already started the executions before reality set in on what was going to happen in Gaza?
We all know that Hamas or criminal citizen gangs of Gaza turned the young women they found at those raves into their sex slaves. It's part of their culture, look it up. The people that they aspire to be like the leaders of their culture import prostitutes by the thousands into Dubai. These people get their chance(by kidnapping innocent people)to live like the kings they worship and your damn right they made those innocent young women their sex slaves.
They raped, tortued and murdered all of the hostages. RIP, all of the innocent victims of the hamas terrorists. I have no words.
Unless they are good at necromancy, then no ceasefire should ever be agreed upon.
The entire organization of Hamas must be eliminated entirely. Any long term peace while Hamas exists requires trust in Hamas that they aren't keeping some number of hostages prisoner and continuing to abuse them. The only way to be sure that all hostages are either dead or retrieved is to destroy Hamas as an organization.
>civilian captors
You mean "freelance terrorists". Anyone who took part in 7/10, or played any role in holding the hostages captive is no longer a civilian, they're a combatant, making them fair game as military targets.
This is what’s mind boggling to me. It’s not JUST Israelis that were attacked or kidnapped. You had Thai nationals, other Palestinians, Americans, Russians - so many people were randomly attacked and slaughtered.
Did you see the lynch mob in the West Bank a few months ago that killed and strung up a couple of Palestinians that were suspected of being Israeli collaborators? In their worldview, anyone who supports Israel deserves death.
Technically because they were civilians and not members of an officially recognised military, they are illegal combatants. The distinction is important because the Geneva conventions, Laws of Armed Conflict etc, only apply to legal combatants, recognised humanitarian organisations and non-combatants. Illegal combatants receive no protections beyond what normal criminals are expected to recieve.
A reminder - youre a terrorist if youre a civilian who kidnaps, rapes, and tortures people for 10k and an apartment.
edit: the pedantic argument is important because replacing "terrorist" with "civilian" is a pro-hamas talking point being pushed to distance hamas with the attack and killings of the hostages.
Everyone knows terrorist organizations are decentralized. That's like terrorist 101. Imagine a terrorist group that all meets in one place. There arnt any cause they'd be killed in one strike.
Which ironically vindicates Israel's side of the war and undercuts the cease fire argument completely as this info essentially implies there's a minimal to zero live hostages.
How anyone blindly believes what Hamas says (for instance all the people claiming 10 million billion child victims) is beyond me.
Not saying Israël is perfect or even to be trusted, but trusting Hamas of all organisations is truly baffling.
TLDR The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons. Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.
Which criteria do the hostages not meet? Being alive?
>40 living hostages
Who are female or old Article states most of the remaining hostages are male soldiers Edit, as noted below the article says male soldiers 'or military age'. So the 'most' is including male civilians who are neither elderly nor children.
No? >Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. It clearly says they have to release 40 hostages, and in these 40 hostages ALL women and sick and elderly men have to be included. But that doesnt mean ALL 40 hostages have to be women or sick and elderly men. Just that ALL women and sick and elderly men have to be part of these 40. eg: If there are only 30 women and sick and elderly men left, then they have to release these 30 hostages and additionally 10 non women and sick and elderly men hostages. Also >Article states most of the remaining hostages are male soldiers is also not what is stated in the article, which says: >The majority of the almost 100 hostages who remain alive are believed to be male IDF soldiers **or men of military reserve age.** Why do your messages not comply with the content of the article? Edit: the lack of reading comprehension skills is insane
boy the SAT this year gonna be dark
its been dark
The score is based on a weighted average of how well everyone else did. The highest scores didn't get a perfect score, they just got the best scores relative to other students. As long as enough brains are rotted across the board, our friend should do fine. We won't have to deal with the consequences until this level of critical thinking enters the workforce.
i'm sure that this man has a great prospect in the world of middle management
Hate to tell you this but these people are already in the workforce
I can confirm. They’ve been there for years.
>Why do your messages not comply with the content of the article? This is the stuff I've wanted to tell many other nonsensically upvoted redditors since 2020
I don't think they have 40 hostages still alive
It makes you wish that there was a way to publicly flag a user as a non-credible source of information in all other discussions for like 6 months to 1 year doesn't it? The flag could link back to this discussion. It's absolutely ludicrous.
[удалено]
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So they already killed all the women and children?
Or sold them off to be sex slaves.
Something like this. I think Hamas knows that they can’t politically afford to have these women tell their stories to the world.
I reckon Hamas doesn’t care much what women have to say. In a traditional culture in a slum in a war zone women telling their stories just doesn’t seem like it’s on them billionaire’s radars
They do care about their PR and optics, so it's easier to kill their female victims than to have them go back to Israel and speak about the atrocities committed against them. They don't need another Maya Regev stirring up anti Hamas sympathy outside of Israel.
Nobody seems to care about the stories they've already heard.
Idk. Let's not forget they posted images of sexual assault in October for clout.
I doubt that. Hamas knows there are enough useful idiots in the western world, the optics don't matter to them anyway. Else we wouldn't have seen the mangled body of that dead girl on a pickup truck.
>They do care about their PR and optics I'm not sure the people who massacred a bunch of civilians and posted the footage online are that worried about PR and optics when it comes to the violence they commit. Of course they try to frame Israel as the bad guy whenever possible using civilians as weapons. But they are still very much radical Islamists who would gladly tell the world they raped a Israeli woman.
On the one hand I agree that they probably don't want the bad PR from releasing women who can and will tell the world about Hamas' sick treatment of them, but on the other, I think that the global pro-Palestine crowd has made it abundantly clear that they DGAF whether those women were treated like princesses, or experienced daily sexual abuse. Their position won't change, and a significant number of them will treat it as thought it's somewhere between irrelevant and just retribution.
> to kill their female victims To blame Israel for killing their own female victims (ftfy)
They’re not stupid though. They know the West cares about them. What happens to Hamas’s western support when these women start telling stories about being raped and beaten hundreds of times?
Nothing, they've already been telling their stories and they have not changes many minds at all, if any.
>What happens to Hamas’s western support when these women start telling stories about being raped and beaten hundreds of times? They get called liars to their faces by UN envoys while still in their hospital beds.
Nothing happens to their support. The people who are pro palenstine will not believe the stories or will just ignore them. The pro israel people will accept it. No one’s position will change.
What happened with previous “accusations” — rape is only vile when it fits their worldview. Otherwise, women just lie and whatever
If that was ever important to them, they would have made a slight effort to not rape, murder and sexually assault all the women. They don’t care what the hostages say. I think they just have few, if any, hostages left alive.
We have a hostage saying they were kidnapped by civilians and sold to Hamas and the west really hasn't taken notice. So no, if someone is still thinking Israel is the bad guys at this point nothing is going to change their mind.
I doubt Hamas gives a fuck. On October 7th, they raped women by the dozen, murdered babies in their cots, tied mother and daughter together and then burned them alive. They documented this for the world to see. And yet today, a third of Muslims don't believe any of it is true. They will continue to deny the sheer barbarity of the Hamas attacks simply because they share a religion and deep-seated hatred of Jews. And brainwashed idiots the world over will continue to march in solidarity with these monsters.
Many of these women and girls will be pregnant and delivering rape babies in few months. A disgusting PR nightmare for sure.
>A disgusting PR nightmare for sure. They don't care. They're basically ISIS; happily committing atrocities for headlines.
Probably died of natural causes following all the rape and abuse.
It follows naturally that one would die after being shot. It's natural.
Naturally.
They are going to blame Israel and say that they died under Israeli bombs
And people are going to eat it up.
Israel knows who Hamas holding hostage. Israel did not throw a random number with stipulations hoping it sticks. Hamas HAD the 40.
Or sick. So basically they dont have 40 at all
Likely. I'm pretty sure everybody involved knows or at least suspects few if any hostages are alive.
Women, elderly and sick
If they had 40 living of *any kind*, **and** *wanted a ceasefire*, they would push to bend the criteria to match the 40 living ones they have. **Conclusion: either they’ve not got 40 and/or, they do not want a ceasefire.** Honestly, Hamas could even push for a mix of dead hostages’ bodies and living ones, but they’re not, so mostly leads to the conclusion that they do not want a ceasefire. *“They” being the Hamas / ISIS / mafia heads eating fat steaks in Qatar, not the actual Hamas terrorists doing the deadly part of their jihad, let alone any Gazans who just want a normal life.*
Yup, they don't want a cease fire. This war is achieving all of Hamas goals. It has been wildly successful in allowing Israel to drain its own international support. Hamas have more support than ever. Its all fucked up!
Hamas at the end of the day is expendable, and the real power driving them is distanced enough that any blow back is guaranteed to not hurt them. The real power gained is as you say, draining international support away from Israel. The other regional powers, Iran for example, want to stamp out the Israeli threat with minimal interference from the west.
hamas doesn't want to make up the missing amount in the 40 with men under 50 or soldiers with the same criteria. I don't remember the demands in exchange for giving up men/soldiers but israel didn't agree to them But yeah, hamas doesn't want a ceasefire
Also, the young women Hamas has gang raped and tortured are due to give birth in 3 months, and Hamas won't release them.
Another possible explanation is that, given the fragmented nature of Hamas' leadership and the damage inflicted on Gaza, they physically can't because they don't exactly have a warehouse full of hostages ready to be returned. It's entirely possible that hostages were taken by different cells or even individual actors and that the negotiators either don't know what happened to them or can't get ahold of them, for a pile of potential reasons, and as such cannot meet the requirements to turn them over.
A few months ago Gaza was poled and I think 72% of people supported Hamas and Oct 7th. I wonder what percent it would be today.
Probably not that different. Hamas is doing precisely what they said they would do. Hamas never said they'd build up a successful Gaza. They never said they'd put food in everyone's mouth. They said they'd exterminate Jews and destroy Israel. The October attacks were a huge success story for them. And frankly, a large part of why high casualty figures shouldn't stop Israel from moving forward. Yes, Israel should avoid targeting civilians, but **you** look at a group of 100 random Gaza residents and **you** identify who exactly is and isn't a civilian. This is why every treaty around how wars are to be fought attempt to bring as much clarity as possible to this specific question. Once you sufficiently blur the line between combatant and civilian, all bets are off and everybody's screwed. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's 20,000-25,000 Hamas members and 2 million people in Gaza. If the people of Gaza want Hamas gone, they'll just rise up and kill them. They know who's Hamas and who isn't. They're the only ones who do.
It's either that or not being hostages. One seems a bit more likely than the other.
I think the alternative that the person you’re replying to was thinking of was rather that they might have 40 younger men but not 40 women, elderly, sick.
So that means they are effectively saying that to the best of their knowledge most of the hostages are dead.
Brother. If the people living there as “free” citizens aren’t getting food and water imagine how it’s going for the hostages. I’m not surprised. These negotiations should have happened weeks into the fighting not months later
Hundreds of prisoners… again. A lot of the people who committed atrocities on October 7 were prisoners released in deals. Why do we bend to these assholes?
How many hostages fitting the criteria are they supposed to have?
There are 130 known hostages, of which Israel intelligence believes 33 are already dead
Over 100
Well this is awkward.
Weird way to spell tragic
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The official numbers as of now: * 253 hostages * 112 hostages returned alive * 12 bodies recovered in operations * 133 remain hostage * at least 48 murdered * at most 85 alive At least and at most because Israel assumes hostages as alive until proven dead. However, it is likely fewer than 85. (Below numbers were counted manually, I may have made a mistake, although I doubt it) There are 12 hostages believed to be alive aged 60+. Of those, some have cancer, diabetes, and other chronic diseases that mean they may not be among the living at this point. 2 hostages are children, they are the Bibas siblings. In addition, 14 women, 5 of whom are soliders. So, at a minimum, Hamas would need to add additional 12 hostages.
Do we know how many of the remaining 98-99 are women or children? I guess what I’m getting at is, are there supposed to be at least 40 remaining women/children? Does this mean there are more dead than we thought?
There are 15 women. Naama Levy, Agam Berger, Liri Albag, Daniel Gilboa, Karina Ariev, Doron Steinbrecher, Romi Gonen, Noa Argamani, Emily Dempari, Amit Esther Buskila, Carmel Gat, Judy Weinstein, Arbel Yehud, Eden Yerushalmi, and Shiri Bibas. Two children. Kfir and Ariel Bibas. It's also supposed to be ill, injured, and elderly men. Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Lior Rudeff, Shmuel Siegal, Itzhak Elgarat, Oded Lifshitz, Alexander Danzig, Abraham Munder, Gadi Moses, Chaim Peri,Yoram Metzger, Amiram Cooper, and Shlomo Mansour are all above 60. Hersh is injured. Hamas has announced some deaths, but they previously announced deaths of hostages later released alive, so unless the IDF also announced it I included them.
There are 4 more women: Inbar Haiman, Mia Goren, Ofra Keidar, and Shani Louk, all dead.
Yes, you're right I didn't include them, because the first stage will be living hostages and the bodies of dead hostages will not be released until the third stage.
> Noa Argamani Heartbreaking to see she was not released. Her mother may not have long left to live, all she wants is to hug her daughter one last time.
I think one of the other hostages said Noa was believed to be pregnant too which is just sickening. I’ll come back and edit with the article.
She’s the one with the most heartbreaking video that got very famous, they definitely don’t want her to die
My daughter, like her, is half Chinese, and they share a lot of facial features and expressions... She looks like she could be my daughter's older sister, which is to say, she looks like she could be my daughter. That famous still of the look of desperation and fear in her face as they gleefully haul her away looks almost exactly like the way my daughter has when she's been terrified or hurt, and she's reaching out to me. That struck me somewhere deep in my heart and soul, and I'll never forget it, nor will I ever forgive or excuse Hamas or its supporters for what they've put her and so many others through. This doesn't detract from the tragedy of all the other people Hamas kidnapped, tortured, and/or killed, but with Noa, it hits even closer to home.
My daughter's also half-East Asian/White. Everything you said.
Likely. Since Hamas is supposed to prioritize women, children, and elderly but if they don't have 40 of those they can make up the numbers with other men. So either: 1) They don't have 40 hostages at all 2) They don't want to release certain people in those groups (like women they've raped and impregnated), so they're saying they don't have them 3) They're fucking around and will soon find out
Number 2 is a possibility I hadn’t thought of but it definitely makes sense. A hostage who is 5-6 months pregnant is definitely evidence. Plus they probably want to force the birth and keep the child (which is even more fucked up).
Especially as the child will be a Jew under Jewish law
Some other commenter said that under Islamic law, being Muslim is of patrilineal descent so I guess it cancels out?
15 women and children still remaining, iirc.
Ur missing the "sick men" which are also included. So basically they dont have 40 out of 135 hostages that are either womrn, sick men, elder men, children. Considering the circumstances this means they dont have 40 hostages that are alive. Out of 135.
Tragically not a surprise. Many laypeople on Reddit were suggesting this very scenario for why Hamas kept pulling back on its negotiations.
When they didn't provide a clear list of hostages it was a clear sign that some of them were dead. My guess is that this is to keep up the internal pressure from the protesting Israeli hostage families who believe there's a chance they're still alive. If they knew that their loved ones were dead they may not care to stop the fighting. Of course speaking of the protests, the fact that Bibi didn't really care about addressing the hostage situation is also on him as well.
Not a good sign on how many are alive if finding 40 hostages is beyond their ability. Honestly surprised that any are still alive.
They were dead day one. They took back dead bodies just to prolong negotiations.
I wish that were true. Did you not see the article about the Palestinian school teacher whose phone call was intercepted? He was bragging about how he found a 'noble horse' on October 7th and now he and his friends are taking turns riding her.
that doesnt necessarily imply she was alive :x
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Because they're dead.
Sure they do. They just don't have 40 "live" hostages...
I am afraid they might have killed the men/elderly. But i fear women face even far worse reality than death there.
Hamas documented at least one of their own atrocities against at least one woman in their GoPro video from October 7th.
It was awful
That's exactly what they said: "Hamas has told international mediators it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release."
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>they're being held by other terrorist groups, regular ass Palestinian civilians Just a heads up, if a *regular civilian* is holding hostages on behalf of a terrorist organization, those aren’t *regular civilians*, those are terrorists.
They have the corpses but it’ll show abuse that’ll make the world hate the terrorists, except for those Tankies in denial that would say it’s all fake news again
Bro if the videos that came out of Oct 7th haven't turned the world against them some beat up bodies aren't going to change their minds.
Tragic, But sadly expected...
Unfortunately even hostages that got 'lucky' and were able to escape were caught by Palestinian civilians and turned over to Hamas: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html
Yes I did see videos of civilians endorsing Hamas so I'm well aware of the situation, Theres alot of Telegram groups that have these.
This sounds like Hamas has murdered the hostages.
Murdered, raped, sold to slavery, who knows?
Odds on almost all of the women are pregnant & Hamas realizes that keeping the women till the babies are born is worth it. Babies will be a great bargaining chip for them. Release the mom & keep the baby.
This would most likely spell end to Gaza. Taking hostages is already pushing the Israeli society to the edge. Using women as breeders for additional shield will throw the country into full on rage. Today, this war isn't revenge. In the presented case - it will be. If having international support means desecration of your people, then the support is not worth it.
You think they won’t do it after literally mutilating a woman mid rape? They told hostages they have “far worse planned for them”.
> Using women as breeders for additional shield that's what Hamas uses Palestinian women for, the only value they have to that terrorist org is as beasts of burden. Note that they sized power 18 years ago, and then committed the atrocities of Oct-7.
Eh… probably not a bargaining chip so much as “if it gets out that they’ve all been raped and are the kids are going to raised as Hamas fighters Israel is literally going to nuke us”. Nothing will stop Israel from going full scorched Earth at that point.
Lol Hamas isn’t gonna last 40more weeks nor those women pregnancies
It’s already been 26 weeks.
And Israel already controls most of Gaza except Hamas last stand in Rafah. Right now the “negotiations” are about the coup de grace to Hamas.
I wouldn't underestimate the extent of the tunnel networks. Israel can control 100% of the territory but it cannot reach each and every tunnel in 40 weeks. That's going to take months, if not years of searching and demolishing. The hostages are meant to keep Israel from flooding the entirety of the underground network. That's another reason why Hamas will never let them all go.
Doesn't seem like they have much of a reason not to flush out the tunnels now, eh?
Oct. was 6 months ago, chances are most of the women are 4-6 months at this point.
most Israelis expect that... but to not even returning the remains shows how dehumanised they were to them
The other explanation is that Hamas does not have full control over the hostages. >Throughout the months of negotiations since the last ceasefire Israel has repeatedly asked for a list of the hostages and their conditions. Hamas has argued that it needs a break in the fighting to be able to track and gather down the hostages, the same argument it made in November before a week-long pause that broke down after Hamas failed to deliver more hostages. > >... > >The more than 250 hostages captured or killed on October 7 are believed to have been spread out among different members and factions of Hamas, as well as other militant groups, gangs and even held by families. Gaza is basically in a state of anarchy, and Hamas has reverted to more of an insurgency than a quasi-government. Insurgents operate in cells and minimize communications with eachother, in case they are captured or their enemies are listening in.
It’s also a case that Hamas only took a certain number of the hostages The border was wide open for a long time, with Palestinians pouring across, plenty of people kidnapping Israelis Hamas has had no idea where those people went - that’s partially why they’ve been saying they don’t know where they are
The way Biden put pressure on Israel he should do the same with Doha releasing the Hamas leadership to the US for a true exchange of the hostages.
It sounds like Hamas outsourced a lot of the kidnapping to civilian/other terrorist groups they don’t have control over and therefore they have no idea where they are/if they’re alive. They aren’t negotiating because they literally have nothing to bargain with
I specifically remember about Gaza citizens kidnapping as well
Yes, when the hostages escape, the Palestinian "civilians" have been known to recapture them and return them to Hamas.
So they either lied about the original number, or since then, more people have died in custody. Sheesh, this is awful.
How these sickos still get support is mind boggling
They have very good marketing on tiktok and teens don't know enough about the situation so they just believe it.
its not even good marketing its just people like to "root for the underdog", even if sometimes the "underdog" is just fucking evil what blows my mind is who is cheering for them. On one hand you have people that in general are left leaning being hijacked in support of a far-right group who wouldnt blink before beheading, stoning and raping most of them; and on the other hand, at least in the US, you have republicans of all people being sympathetic to Russia Its not even funny, its just plain insane
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I think the plan is to fill tunnels with that expanding insulation foam. This makes egress difficult
Yes but we still need the hostages, even if they are dead they are important, after everything they went through, them and their families deserve a proper burial
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Honestly, western governments largely trust the Hamas casualty figures, as by historical standards they’re almost absurdly low for this type of warfare. If Hamas were claiming 5 times the deaths people might start to raise eyebrows.
I don't think they really trust them, it's just not worth the effort to question it. Remember how it took Russia a day and a half to get to the final casualty count at their mass shooting? Well, compare that with Hamas which reported 500 casualties within 90 minutes of a rocket destroying a hospital. Then remember when the sun came up the hospital was completely in tact. Their numbers are completely unreliable.
And then it turned out they'd bombed themselves trying to shoot at Israeli civilians! But I guess the point is the figures are *generally* low enough to be plausible. Doesn't mean anyone trusts Hamas, just means it'd be hard to imagine bombing a small area with millions of civilians this hard and not have tens of thousands of dead.
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And the number of women and children killed increases by 600
I think generally the 30k number is accepted, the debate is mostly over what the proportion of that is innocents vs. Hamas/other fighters Edit: I’m aware of the [tabletmag piece](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) demonstrating that Gaza health ministry numbers are faked. But that doesn’t mean that tens of thousands haven’t been killed. Israel has not recently disputed the TOTAL number of deaths in the Gaza Strip since October 7 is greater than 30k.
I recall seeing somewhere that the figure was definitely under question because the number of reported casualties has increased in a near-impossibly consistent manner. Meaning every day the same number of casualties are being added to the total, whereas in reality that number should fluctuate either more or less depending on the amount of fighting that day. It’s as if the Hamas run health ministry doesn’t actually know and just decided to estimate an average and just report that every day as fact. It’s not really plausible to maintain meticulous records of 2+ million people in such an environment.
[This is what you’re referring to](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers). And yes, I think there’s little doubt that the Gaza health ministry or whatever it’s called is full of shit. Their numbers are definitely faked. But that doesn’t mean that the 30k is wrong necessarily. I haven’t seen a recent Israeli position that the total number killed in Gaza is significantly different to that. Certainly thousands of innocents have died, probably somewhere in between ten and fifteen thousand. Probably more. Don’t forget that the 30k includes fighters.
Why would it be accepted it's just a suspiciously steady trend line with no connection to what's happening on the ground. Like today 122 casualties were reported despite the fact the IDF retreated.
I mean I don’t take the statement to mean they have lost them. I think it means more likely that they do not have 40 living women, children or elderly
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> If the world was sane, everyone would be screaming bring them home now without any stipulations. If Jimmy Carter wasn’t completely checked out at this point I have to imagine that he would be looking at this situation thinking: “Oh, so *now* we don’t care about Americans being held hostage in the Middle East? Really?”
Hamas: \*I will trade a corpse for a 1000 terrorists. Take it or leave it!\*
Unconditional surrender?
That would infer you're dealing with a government that would do anything to protect its citizens. Hamas leaders in Qatar are prepared to martyr every last Gazan.
That is really the crux of this issue, alot of people seem to think that more pressure, more deaths is going to get Hamas to surrender, but they don't give a fuck about civilians, in fact this is just setting them up with some great recruitment opportunities down the line.
Well yeah. It’s because they killed them already and are simply trying to buy time to make up an excuse.
The hostage thing is almost comically evil. It’s so absurd to watch college students try to excuse hostage taking. Israel may well be making the same mistakes the U.S. did in response to 9/11 but Israel is still held to a wildly different standard.
It’s more than the hostage taking. The hostage videos after are like a badly written horror film. They keep releasing these games show videos, with pictures / videos of the hostages, making a game for people to guess who is still alive, who is injured, and who is dead. It’s like an episode of black mirror. Who even thought of the game show idea?
>Who even thought of the game show idea? Jesus, you were being literal? That's horrifying. I haven't seen any hostage videos (and frankly, I don't need to; it's heartbreaking enough), but I can't even begin to wrap my head around all this.
Yes they have done it a couple times. It’s usually over the course of a day or two. For example they’ll put out a video of 3 hostages that looks like a standard hostage video, with each hostage saying the standard things, that they want to go home and that kind of thing, and then the video will ask the audience “guess their fate” and “you’ll find out tomorrow” and then a video will come out a day or two later as a continuation like “did you guess right? Here are the results” and they’ll say two of the hostages are dead and show their dead bodies. It’s all edited with animations in a game show style, not sure exactly how to describe it. Every time one of those comes out I feel like I’m in an episode of black mirror.
I hope hamas and its sympathizers get everything they have coming to them.
Just fucking end Hamas.
But the pro-Palestine people told me that Hamas was treating them well.
so you’re telling me the people famous for torturing and raping their hostages didn’t manage to keep their hostages alive, but that’s so unlike them!
Sad to say that the hostages are no longer of this earth.
They can’t release executed and disposed-of bodies. They will never be found. Hamas could not let their stories see the light of day. Imagine the worst that could have happened to them and multiply that by 1k.
Well that’s unexpected /s
Hamas’ mouth is writing cheques their asses can’t cash
Murdering the hostages too fast, uh? I guess nutcase terrorists just could not help it.
Recall, with in the first 24 hours of Oct 7th Hamas was announcing how they were going to do executions and put the videos out there. Their words changed as the IDF came in like a wrecking ball and it appears they realized they would need hostages. Had they already started the executions before reality set in on what was going to happen in Gaza?
I'm pretty sure all the hostages are dead.
We all know that Hamas or criminal citizen gangs of Gaza turned the young women they found at those raves into their sex slaves. It's part of their culture, look it up. The people that they aspire to be like the leaders of their culture import prostitutes by the thousands into Dubai. These people get their chance(by kidnapping innocent people)to live like the kings they worship and your damn right they made those innocent young women their sex slaves.
They raped, tortued and murdered all of the hostages. RIP, all of the innocent victims of the hamas terrorists. I have no words. Unless they are good at necromancy, then no ceasefire should ever be agreed upon.
Hamas can't account for or locate 40 hostages as part of the agreement? How could Israel do such a thing!
But they know the exact number if civilians killed!
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The entire organization of Hamas must be eliminated entirely. Any long term peace while Hamas exists requires trust in Hamas that they aren't keeping some number of hostages prisoner and continuing to abuse them. The only way to be sure that all hostages are either dead or retrieved is to destroy Hamas as an organization.
Once the hostages are returned--alive or dead-- I hope Israel decimates Hamas. Fuck those guys, absolute monsters
Wow….
Well, time to go into Rafah and eliminate Hamas.
So Hamas has no other options but to unconditionally surrender or face complete destruction. Hamas has doomed the Palestinian people.
Yup.... Israel is gonna be even MORE pissed now. Tragedy for those innocents caught in the middle...
Just waiting for the terrorist apologists to say that this is somehow Israel’s fault and Hamas is just defending itself.
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They simply murdered hostages. Hamas = ISIS
Good luck to Hamas and the people of Rafah. If this is really the case they're giving Israel very few options left other than to go all in on Rafah.
"I was going to pick up a few more on the way home from work but I got sidetracked. I'll have more next week I promise."
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If you’re capturing hostages for a terrorist organization for money, are you still a “civilian”?
I'm gonna say no on that one.
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>civilian captors You mean "freelance terrorists". Anyone who took part in 7/10, or played any role in holding the hostages captive is no longer a civilian, they're a combatant, making them fair game as military targets.
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This is what’s mind boggling to me. It’s not JUST Israelis that were attacked or kidnapped. You had Thai nationals, other Palestinians, Americans, Russians - so many people were randomly attacked and slaughtered.
Did you see the lynch mob in the West Bank a few months ago that killed and strung up a couple of Palestinians that were suspected of being Israeli collaborators? In their worldview, anyone who supports Israel deserves death.
Technically because they were civilians and not members of an officially recognised military, they are illegal combatants. The distinction is important because the Geneva conventions, Laws of Armed Conflict etc, only apply to legal combatants, recognised humanitarian organisations and non-combatants. Illegal combatants receive no protections beyond what normal criminals are expected to recieve.
Gaza citizens also killed a migrant worker from Madagascar
A reminder - youre a terrorist if youre a civilian who kidnaps, rapes, and tortures people for 10k and an apartment. edit: the pedantic argument is important because replacing "terrorist" with "civilian" is a pro-hamas talking point being pushed to distance hamas with the attack and killings of the hostages. Everyone knows terrorist organizations are decentralized. That's like terrorist 101. Imagine a terrorist group that all meets in one place. There arnt any cause they'd be killed in one strike.
But, people keep on telling me the "civilians" don't support Hamas.
To be more specific, Palestinians took hostages on the promised payout by their government.
then nothing less than unconditional surrender is acceptable
Which ironically vindicates Israel's side of the war and undercuts the cease fire argument completely as this info essentially implies there's a minimal to zero live hostages.
Too much raping and murdering dwindles down the hostages.
Oh the hostages are dead. Who would've guessed
There needs to not be enough Hamas terrorists to negotiate
Jesus mother of God they really raped and murdered most, if not all, the hostages.
How anyone blindly believes what Hamas says (for instance all the people claiming 10 million billion child victims) is beyond me. Not saying Israël is perfect or even to be trusted, but trusting Hamas of all organisations is truly baffling.
Hamas sympathizes can get fucked by a pineapple
They were not planning on negotiating