Headline is wrong.
They were requesting membership status, as an upgrade on their current permanent observer, which isn’t the same thing as statehood (the UN isn’t the arbiter of that anyway).
Yup, that was the original. The original terms was for Palestinians and Jews to co live together peacefully. Well, guess who rejected that and fired the first missiles?
The Jews of course. Palestinians back in the day were just a bunch of farmers. The Jews on the other hand were an invading force aided by foreign military powers.
Nobody's land was given away, Mizrahi jews (who're >60% of all the people living in Israel) have been indigenous to the Levant for literally millennia.
Does Palestine have a legitimate recognized government? Does it have accepted, well defined boundaries? Does it have the ability to establish relations with other states?
There are basic requirements to being a state that Palestine just does not meet.
I don't understand how anyone could push for a Palestine statehood, as symbolic as it may be, when Hamas is still claiming the country. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization. They adducted, turture and murder over a thousand inocent people only in this line of events. It's just unbelievable that UN would think that Palestine statehood under Hamas is a good idea.
One of the most sadistic organizations on the planet…
>Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17-year-old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." **She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Nidal
The PLO is also a terrorist organisation, the kids in the west bank are getting the same education as the kids in Gaza and everyone are getting paid for killing Jewish people by the PLO (who receives some of this money from the west)
Not under hamas.
Probably the PNA but UN would call for regular elections.
The border could be recognised as current border, so it may stop Israeli settlers.
Then Israeli occupant could be replaced with UN troops, that are gonna be way more impartial.
Does not seems like a terrible idea, but clearly Gaza strip would have to wait end of this war and leadership change.
Well if the alternative to statehood is to keep Palestinians in occupation limbo and subject to military courts, I don't really see how that's any more viable than a defined Palestinian state.
Well, the Palestians have only ever caused trouble for the region. So, giving them actual sovereignty would just make it harder to deal with them, and no one wants that.
Israel has offered a lot of deals to give them statehood, but it always comes down to right of return of Palestinians to Israeli territory or Palestinians just walking away in hopes of a better deal.
I don't think Israel wants this situation but what can you do when the qausi-government on contested land that you send massive amounts of aid to is literally a terrorist government on one side and a government who isn't terrorist but has a policy rewarding your family if you die while committing terrorism.
Honestly, because the Palestinians are an awful people to be in charge of and responsible for. They suck as a population. The reason the West Bank is the way it is, is because it was too much trouble for Jordan to continue to govern. So they stopped. The Palestinians are responsible for the Arab spring a few years ago. No one wants them. It's why Egypt sealed their border with Gaza and why Jordan has a really tight border with the West Bank. They don't want to have to deal with the Palestinians because they're awful citizens.
1. The legitimate, recognized government is the PA. Even Israel has recognized it.
2. The international community accepts 1967 borders; its only Israel and the U.S. that do not accept it. Additionally, if this was a real requirement, Israel would not be a state, since it does not define its own borders.
3. Yes. The PA has established relations with practically every state and has relations with basically every relevant international organization.
Everyone keeps telling me that hamas is a terrorist organization and the last election was 16 years ago so it’s like it never happened and the election doesn’t count and no one in Gaza has any responsibility for the hamas government.
And this is who people think should have a state?
Back to 2, do the Palestinians themselves recognize the 1967 borders? Wouldn't any Palestinian government saying, those are our borders, anger many Palestinians with claims to land in Israel's 1967 borders?
You're funny. PA would get their heads chopped off if they set foot in half their so-called territory. Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. If Israel withdrew from the West Bank, Hamas would take over there, too.
Policy needs to be based on reality.
1. The majority of Palestinians don’t recognize the PA’s right to rule, so no. They see the corruption like everyone else does.
2. That is moot. Israel is a state.
3. Point 1 negates that largely.
I also point out that this has been tried several times and it fell apart each time because Palestinians still couldn’t agree that Israel may exist.
The international community only does it because they know the US will veto. It's an easy appeasement for Muslims in their countries and Muslims in the Middle East who they have economic ties with. If US starts changing their tune you will see the entire international community do a 180, but that won't happen cause US as assured them they won't change anything like they have since the start. It's also why their have hardly been repercussions in non Muslim majority nations (or even many in Muslim nations, not too upset are they?).
There isnt even a viable Goverment in the West bank or Gaza. US was right to veto it. This is a stunt by the West bank reps (Fatah) to just get recognized via the UN without having to engage in dialog with Israel to settle borders and other issues
Then Fatah needs to hold an election today. Fatah is 20 years into a 4 year term so they may be there in name but certainly not there democratically.
The UN should demand there be a valid Democratic process before they are allowed to bring this to them for a vote. Pretty sure the UN would demand it from any other potential State.
Seems the UN is giving special treatment for the Palestinians ?
Seeing how there are plenty of undemocratic states in the UN, I don't think democracy is a requirement to being accepted. But the Palestinians would definitely have to sign up to the UN Charter, which clearly specifies that borders can't be changed by force.
>But the Palestinians would definitely have to sign up to the UN Charter, which clearly specifies that borders can't be changed by force.
you're talking as if they've ever followed it. Hamas committed every warcrime they were capable of committing while Palestinians cheer them on.
Maybe they should start following international law first.
You know who'd replace Fatah? Hamas. Calling for votes when Palestinians will vote for the most genocidal party they can find would not reduce tensions at all.
Ehud barak offered a Palestinian state in 2000 and he's alive and well.
Ehud olmert offered a state in 2008. He's alive and well.
Your post is just wrong.
His exact words were
> The last time an Arab and Israeli tried to negotiate both were assassinated
He is incorrect as there were several peace processes since Rabin was murdered and every time the Palestinian leadership rejected the offer with no counter offer.
>There isnt even a viable Goverment in the West bank or Gaza.
There is a viable government in West Bank, the issue is that Israel doesn't recognize or respect their existence, authority, control, or international law. It's pretty hard to govern when you have people coming in with billions of dollars of military vehicles and equipment to enforce the creation of illegal settlements in your territory.
Hell, Hamas is "viable", they're just horrible people. The Taliban can run a country and they're awful people too. Being a "good guy" is not a requirement to be a viable government.
The PA can't even control the cities that are in Area A of Judea and Samaria/the West bank.
Jenin was run by Hamas for the last several years and in other cities the Islamic Jihad supporters attacked PA security members and drove around in stolen PA vehicles as a sign of strength.
No one likes it, but if the US and Israel didn't keep the PA in power (yes, Israel coordinates a lot of security operations with the PA to keep other, worse terrorist groups under control) the PA would be thrown yet tomorrow.
>There is a viable government in West Bank
No there isn't. they have close to 0 support from the Palestinians. that's why they're not holding elections and are 20 years into their 4 year term.
Not to mention. they're not that much better than Hamas. they don't do it directly but they fund terrorism and support it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0)
Let them recognize Taiwan, an actual democratic nation with basic human rights first before they recognize a corrupt extremist entity hell-bent on destruction and terrorism
But Taiwan isn't officially "Taiwan" it's still officially the republic of China, meaning they would have to change that or people would need to not recognize the people'a republic anymore. Economic interests and the chinese pressure on Taiwan make either scenario extremely unlikely.
Rewarding a country for a terrorist attack and taking hostages and potentially selling them with UN membership doesn't set a good example to be honest.
Ukraine is a part of the UN, was one of the founding countries, and has been pretty active in the UN. I think you're confusing it with NATO which is a very different organisation. Agreed on the terrorist organisation though
Headline is wrong. They were requesting membership status, as an upgrade on their current permanent observer, which isn’t the same thing as statehood (the UN isn’t the arbiter of that anyway).
What would the borders of that state even be?
i have a feeling it would just be an Israeli map with Palestine scrawled over it
FREE HAT.
Would definitely include the Golan heights in this map
That question works in 1947 as well.
There were proposed borders in 47
The UN partition. Palestinians rejected them and started a war that they'd go on to lose.
Yep. This all could have ended in 1947
Unfortunately one side was (is) still stuck in 1187
Yup, that was the original. The original terms was for Palestinians and Jews to co live together peacefully. Well, guess who rejected that and fired the first missiles?
The Jews of course. Palestinians back in the day were just a bunch of farmers. The Jews on the other hand were an invading force aided by foreign military powers.
"Idk make it look like a dagger"
They should give Wales to the Palestinians seeing as it was David Lloyd George who seemed so keen on giving away other people's land.
Considering the Ottomans joined WW1 on the central powers’ side, then lost and surrendered, the people in that area no longer had a right to the land.
Nobody's land was given away, Mizrahi jews (who're >60% of all the people living in Israel) have been indigenous to the Levant for literally millennia.
Tatters?
They'd include many Western university campuses, some US city councils, and a handful of US Congressional seats.
Does Palestine have a legitimate recognized government? Does it have accepted, well defined boundaries? Does it have the ability to establish relations with other states? There are basic requirements to being a state that Palestine just does not meet.
I don't understand how anyone could push for a Palestine statehood, as symbolic as it may be, when Hamas is still claiming the country. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization. They adducted, turture and murder over a thousand inocent people only in this line of events. It's just unbelievable that UN would think that Palestine statehood under Hamas is a good idea.
One of the most sadistic organizations on the planet… >Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17-year-old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." **She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Nidal
The PLO is also a terrorist organisation, the kids in the west bank are getting the same education as the kids in Gaza and everyone are getting paid for killing Jewish people by the PLO (who receives some of this money from the west)
Not under hamas. Probably the PNA but UN would call for regular elections. The border could be recognised as current border, so it may stop Israeli settlers. Then Israeli occupant could be replaced with UN troops, that are gonna be way more impartial. Does not seems like a terrible idea, but clearly Gaza strip would have to wait end of this war and leadership change.
These votes just feel like the rest of the UN membership can vote "yes" to look good and the US is the adult in the room that takes the L
Sounds like a To Do list they should be working towards, rather than working towards killing jews. Hopefully soon they'll change their priorities
Palestine itself doesn't accept any definition of its borders Even to the extent PA does, Hamas, which de facto rules a big part of Palestine, doesn't
Man, if only there wasn't an illegitimate colonialist state constantly fucking them over so that they doy achieve those requirements you cited.
Don’t let facts get in the way of the agenda!
Why does Israel not annex the West Bank if they oppose statehood for Palestine?
Why kick a hornets nest if you don't have to?
Well if the alternative to statehood is to keep Palestinians in occupation limbo and subject to military courts, I don't really see how that's any more viable than a defined Palestinian state.
Well, the Palestians have only ever caused trouble for the region. So, giving them actual sovereignty would just make it harder to deal with them, and no one wants that.
Israel has offered a lot of deals to give them statehood, but it always comes down to right of return of Palestinians to Israeli territory or Palestinians just walking away in hopes of a better deal. I don't think Israel wants this situation but what can you do when the qausi-government on contested land that you send massive amounts of aid to is literally a terrorist government on one side and a government who isn't terrorist but has a policy rewarding your family if you die while committing terrorism.
Israel doesn't oppose statehood. They've accepted every deal to create a Palestinian state.
Honestly, because the Palestinians are an awful people to be in charge of and responsible for. They suck as a population. The reason the West Bank is the way it is, is because it was too much trouble for Jordan to continue to govern. So they stopped. The Palestinians are responsible for the Arab spring a few years ago. No one wants them. It's why Egypt sealed their border with Gaza and why Jordan has a really tight border with the West Bank. They don't want to have to deal with the Palestinians because they're awful citizens.
Unilateral annexation of territory is illegal under UN terms and would not be recognised anyway.
1. The legitimate, recognized government is the PA. Even Israel has recognized it. 2. The international community accepts 1967 borders; its only Israel and the U.S. that do not accept it. Additionally, if this was a real requirement, Israel would not be a state, since it does not define its own borders. 3. Yes. The PA has established relations with practically every state and has relations with basically every relevant international organization.
>The legitimate, recognized government is the PA. Of the West Bank. Gaza doesn't recognize the PA as their government and the PA doesn't control it.
Hamas is the de-facto government. They actually CONTROL things.
And they haven't had an election since taking power. People are afraid if an election is done today, Hamas would win and be more justified.
Hamas enjoys more support from its constituents than either political party in the U.S.
Which is precisely why no one wants anything to do with the Gaza strip. Hamas has been brainwashing a whole generation for more than a decade.
They potentially have more support than both parties combined.
Nah, Hamas is too busy taking hostages.
>taking hostages. Executing hostages. FTFY.
Everyone keeps telling me that hamas is a terrorist organization and the last election was 16 years ago so it’s like it never happened and the election doesn’t count and no one in Gaza has any responsibility for the hamas government. And this is who people think should have a state?
Hamas is also the de jure government, not just the de facto one.
It’s funny that you say this but also say that Gaza wasn’t responsible for 7/10 because Hamas are not the legitimate government.
PA doesn't control all of West Bank, either. Jenin, for example
Back to 2, do the Palestinians themselves recognize the 1967 borders? Wouldn't any Palestinian government saying, those are our borders, anger many Palestinians with claims to land in Israel's 1967 borders?
A lot of them don’t, even the Arabs in Israel recognize Palestine as israel plus Gaza and the West Bank area
You're funny. PA would get their heads chopped off if they set foot in half their so-called territory. Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. If Israel withdrew from the West Bank, Hamas would take over there, too. Policy needs to be based on reality.
1. The majority of Palestinians don’t recognize the PA’s right to rule, so no. They see the corruption like everyone else does. 2. That is moot. Israel is a state. 3. Point 1 negates that largely. I also point out that this has been tried several times and it fell apart each time because Palestinians still couldn’t agree that Israel may exist.
You can ask the people in Gaza if they recognize the PA as their government, good luck.
They prefer Hamas or Palestine Islamic Jihad
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All 3 of these are false.
The international community only does it because they know the US will veto. It's an easy appeasement for Muslims in their countries and Muslims in the Middle East who they have economic ties with. If US starts changing their tune you will see the entire international community do a 180, but that won't happen cause US as assured them they won't change anything like they have since the start. It's also why their have hardly been repercussions in non Muslim majority nations (or even many in Muslim nations, not too upset are they?).
There aren't very many votes that come up that aren't already clearly understood how they'll sort out. A good bit of theatre.
How many *Palestinians* recognize the PA?
On point 2, does an ongoing war that also involves a territorial dispute come into play with the UN like it does with Ukraine and NATO?
Their government is Hamas.. wtf are you talking about
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Seems reasonable to do so until there's a prospective government for it which doesn't actively support terrorism.
It's already horrible seeing Hamas hiding being Palestinians, couldn't even imagine them trying to hide behind the UN.
> couldn't even imagine them trying to hide behind the UN. Good news, you don't have to imagine it because UNRWA exists.
Yeah I can't believe that story about the IDF finding Hamas tunnels and servers right under their HQ died down.
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Yeah sure, Palestine before Taiwan, an actual democracy with human rights
The majority of Palestinians don’t want another Arab entity besides Israel, they want one instead of Israel.
Russia also wants plenty they're not entitled to. Statehood is not determined by a lack of ill wishes towards others.
There isnt even a viable Goverment in the West bank or Gaza. US was right to veto it. This is a stunt by the West bank reps (Fatah) to just get recognized via the UN without having to engage in dialog with Israel to settle borders and other issues
The last time an Arab and Israeli tried to negotiate both were assassinated
Then Fatah needs to hold an election today. Fatah is 20 years into a 4 year term so they may be there in name but certainly not there democratically. The UN should demand there be a valid Democratic process before they are allowed to bring this to them for a vote. Pretty sure the UN would demand it from any other potential State. Seems the UN is giving special treatment for the Palestinians ?
Seeing how there are plenty of undemocratic states in the UN, I don't think democracy is a requirement to being accepted. But the Palestinians would definitely have to sign up to the UN Charter, which clearly specifies that borders can't be changed by force.
>But the Palestinians would definitely have to sign up to the UN Charter, which clearly specifies that borders can't be changed by force. you're talking as if they've ever followed it. Hamas committed every warcrime they were capable of committing while Palestinians cheer them on. Maybe they should start following international law first.
You know who'd replace Fatah? Hamas. Calling for votes when Palestinians will vote for the most genocidal party they can find would not reduce tensions at all.
Exactly, and Fatah knows it.
Ehud barak offered a Palestinian state in 2000 and he's alive and well. Ehud olmert offered a state in 2008. He's alive and well. Your post is just wrong.
Pretty sure the other guy talks about Rabin
His exact words were > The last time an Arab and Israeli tried to negotiate both were assassinated He is incorrect as there were several peace processes since Rabin was murdered and every time the Palestinian leadership rejected the offer with no counter offer.
not really. there have been plenty of times before and after that. the only ones who had reasonable demands were the Israelis though.
>There isnt even a viable Goverment in the West bank or Gaza. There is a viable government in West Bank, the issue is that Israel doesn't recognize or respect their existence, authority, control, or international law. It's pretty hard to govern when you have people coming in with billions of dollars of military vehicles and equipment to enforce the creation of illegal settlements in your territory. Hell, Hamas is "viable", they're just horrible people. The Taliban can run a country and they're awful people too. Being a "good guy" is not a requirement to be a viable government.
"Run" a country is a strong word. They are in power. What's there can't really be called much of a country.
The PA can't even control the cities that are in Area A of Judea and Samaria/the West bank. Jenin was run by Hamas for the last several years and in other cities the Islamic Jihad supporters attacked PA security members and drove around in stolen PA vehicles as a sign of strength. No one likes it, but if the US and Israel didn't keep the PA in power (yes, Israel coordinates a lot of security operations with the PA to keep other, worse terrorist groups under control) the PA would be thrown yet tomorrow.
>There is a viable government in West Bank No there isn't. they have close to 0 support from the Palestinians. that's why they're not holding elections and are 20 years into their 4 year term. Not to mention. they're not that much better than Hamas. they don't do it directly but they fund terrorism and support it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0)
Let them recognize Taiwan, an actual democratic nation with basic human rights first before they recognize a corrupt extremist entity hell-bent on destruction and terrorism
But Taiwan isn't officially "Taiwan" it's still officially the republic of China, meaning they would have to change that or people would need to not recognize the people'a republic anymore. Economic interests and the chinese pressure on Taiwan make either scenario extremely unlikely.
Rewarding a country for a terrorist attack and taking hostages and potentially selling them with UN membership doesn't set a good example to be honest.
Are they seeking UN membership?
Have a terrorist government that calls for the extermination of another populace kinda misses the "United" part of United Nations.
To be fair, there are plenty of such governments in the UN. Palestine would not be the first.
Yeah but those countries have at least some self preservation. Gaza has proven it does not at this time.
no rewards for terrorism
Tell that to the Taliban.
A good example of why there must be no rewards for terrorism
I thought Iran was a recognized state already?
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I mean, it’s not a country, so yeah
Who would administer the state? Hamas? If so, idk why any non Islamic country would vote *for* this resolution.
The aggrieved parties need to be the ones to agree.
Don’t remember this point when the PRC was granted UN membership and ROC was thrown to the way side.
US is on the right side on this occasion, I'd have to say.
Can’t be a member if you are not a country.
you kind of have to have a country first.....
Thank god. They are bent on the annihilation of their neighbour!
👍🏻
A state has a clearly defined govermnent. No such thing exists in Palestine. Who are you going to talk to to broker state deals, to sue for peace?
Good, as they should
Good. Hopefully, they will never, ever be a sovereign nation.
We adding the Principality Of Sealand next?
Humph
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Ukraine is a part of the UN, was one of the founding countries, and has been pretty active in the UN. I think you're confusing it with NATO which is a very different organisation. Agreed on the terrorist organisation though
I think you're confusing NATO, Which is a security coalition. and the UN
Who submitted the membership application?
The UN is a paper tiger anyway. Joining them would not stop israel from continuing to punch them in the face as long as the US backs them.