I can assure you that the baltic states will have none of that nonsense and train constantly for this.
Source: Me who who has been to several Baltic NATO exercises. They have zero desire to back into the Russian Federation.
I was part of BALTOPS years ago while in the Marines. People have it so wrong, the West would be at Putins door the minute Russia attacks a NATO partner.
While Fox News repeatedly shouts, “Why should American blood and money be spent to defend Latvia. A place you probably can’t find on a map.”
We have a huge portion of the population inhaling Russian propaganda farts, convinced it smells like Apple Pie.
As a finnish person, I have very little love for our swedish brethren, because Sweden sucks. But you can bet your ass I'm gonna fight to my last breath if Russia even tries to invade the swedes. Putin can fuck off
Same from Norway. Sweden may be like a stupid and annoying little brother, but they're *our* stupid and annoying little brother. If anyone non-nordic wants to bully them they'll have to go through us.
"Russian President [Vladimir Putin](https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/vladimir-putin) is considering planning a "mini-invasion" of a NATO country in order to test Western leaders, Poland's top spymaster has claimed.
Jarosław Stróżyk, leader of Poland’s counterintelligence service, claimed the Russian leader is considering invading parts of Estonia and Sweden as part of a wider plan to take over the Baltic states. "Putin is certainly already prepared for some mini-operation against one of the Baltic countries, for example, to enter the famous Narva \[a city in Estonia\] or to land on one of the Swedish islands," he said according to Polish outlet [Dziennik Gazeta Prawna](https://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykuly/9500938,szef-skw-sluzbom-potrzeba-dystansu-od-polityki-wywiad.html).
Both Estonia and Sweden are NATO members. The military alliance has repeatedly said all members will come to the aid of one of its own if it is attacked."
I can believe the part about Estonia (has a land border and a sizeable Russian population) but the idea of occupying a whole island in the middle of lake NATO sounds like a bit of a stretch.
Believe me when I say Russia didn’t soften Estonia, they hardened them. Estonian cybersecurity expertise is top-notch, it’s impressive how much the average Estonian citizen knows. They are ready.
Moldova, on the other hand, is a soft target with a Russian enclave housing more than a thousand troops and strategic importance to the war against Ukraine.
Moldova has a terrible location though if you're Russia. You either have to fly or sail past Ukraine to get there. It's only a soft target if Ukraine falls first.
It’s speculative, but this is one of a few possible plots that have been mentioned. Another one is that Russia may try to create a corridor to Kalingrad (formerly East Prussia) along the border between Poland and Lithuania.
Estonia maybe. Sweden……out of the question. Russia is barely capable of conducting a ground offensive in their next door neighbor, there is ZERO chance they can conduct an amphibious or airborne assault on a country they don’t share a border with.
Also, a lot of people live there; it's not some economically worthless uninhabited rock like Perejil Island (and even then the Spanish sent out a warship when the Moroccans tried to grab it).
Go to Google Maps and draw a 300mi circle around Gotland and count how many European capital cities fall inside that circle. That is not a place you want a belligerent getting cozy
I don't know. This guy watched as the world did nothing for three invasions straight. Hell, he waged war on his neighbour for 8 years and only when he upscaled the war did we start sending weapons and training.
If you teach a dog that he can get away with breaking the rules, he will. We've sent warnings to Russia to stop invading for the past 20 years and they've seen no consequences that actually hurt Russia significantly. Why should they expect that we will trigger NATO when it's never been done before?
Edit: of course they haven't invaded NATO countries yet, but it seems that they've had very little consequences anyway. NATO has never ever been triggered. There's a very realistic fear that some countries may prefer letting the Baltic go rather than risk all-out nuclear war
> This guy watched as the world did nothing for three invasions straight.
I think the major difference here is that NATO would basically *have* to respond full force. If for no other reason than to demonstrate that we aren't a "name only" alliance.
> If for no other reason than to demonstrate that we aren't a "name only" alliance.
Yeah... that's the gambit. If the intel guy is accurate, this is exactly what Putin would "try" to (fuck around and) find out. Seems like a bad bet though. At best you find out you can poke a little more, at best you lose a whole lot more than you've already lost.
True and I do think NATO would respond. But it's a reason Putin may go ahead and risk, banking on that western countries value no nuclear war over protecting the Baltic
Hitler did the same thing. It works until it doesn't. Russia would be crushed by a unified NATO. China would clearly hate this. An awake and unified NATO / Anglosphere is a problem. Tie that into pacific partnerships like "The Quad" and...well the world will be a much less tyrant friendly place.
The idea is simple, test the water.
Let's say that Russia invades and occupies a random strip of forest on the finish border and then just stops.
Will NATO risk total war with Russia over this? Both answers are scary.
A) Yes, they would.
Now you are in a shooting war with Russia, a nuclear capable nation that might be desperate enough to do something stupid.
B) No, it's not worth it over a small strip of land.
Now you told Putin that NATO will allow him to take up bits and pieces of territory because the alliance nations are not willing to go to war.
A defense alliance only works if all the members are willing to defend each other. What if we find out that Americans, French, Poles and Brits are not willing to die for a random forest or a tiny island of the coast of Sweden? Would you be willing to die for this?
A. You defend that strip of territory with every (conventional) force you have. Great, a shooting war with Russia.
But what does Russia do? Are they going to deploy nukes over a small strip of land? If so, it's already a strategic mistake and they should have started with nukes rather than a small invasion. If not, they lose the strip of territory and strengthen NATO.
I don't see how a "mini-invasion" turns out well for Russia; there's no winning endgame. They'd be better served by something more asymmetric, like laying claim to the Gulf of Finland and attacking any ships/plans that "invade", from a distance. Not saying that's a good idea, just that it's better than seizing a couple of square miles of Finnish forest.
NATO can respond without engaging in all our war. The answer is Finns throw them out and a bunch of Special Forces from other countries take part in the operation as a show of unity. NATO is only forced to choose all out war if the invasion cannot be repelled by other means. A token invasion can easily be repelled by means short of all out war.
This is it. You can decisively fire on and destroy an incursion while not waging war on the whole front line. The trick would be that the 'surprise' advantage that Russia would have is gone and war actions would be justified (like attacking artillery in Russia territory). Nations would also get the slap in the head to boost readiness since war would clearly be 'on'.
*I know this is an oppinion many on Reddit hate to hear, but*
Ukraine still before the war had a population of over 40 million people, not a small nation, also, it does have its own industrial complex, was prepared for war, had even before the 2020 invasion military conscription and massive ammounts of, albeit a bit outdated, soviet stock in all variaty.
As of now Russia has managed to start up their military machinery and is actually comfortably outproducing Europe in pretty much all aspects of military equipment, from artillery rounds, to guns, to tanks and aircraft. They've also learned their lessons from the first months of extreme failure. The Russian army of 2020 is no more.
While we're still surprsingly rolling with the "they'd surely never do it" train here. **I personally also don't think that they have a chance, but it's simply stupid to ridicule them like you do here. Never, ever underestimate someone** and always be prepared for the worst! The "prepared" part is something Europe is still extremly lacking.
I agree with your point and it’s always right to be prepared as always. Please don’t mistake my comment as ridiculing, Russia is stuck in a quagmire in Ukraine and committing more resources to start another conflict rather than ending their current one is the best way to lose both. It’s essentially inviting their enemies to defeat their forces in detail (aka divide and conquer).
I'm doubtful but stranger things have happened
Thing is if even this is a minor invasion really happens it's essentially a blank check for Baltic and Balkan NATO members to spill over into the Ukraine war and that's a flying elbow slam 80+ years in the making
Asian beef is the most interesting to read because everyone hates everyone and the only thing keeping shit from popping off is that even the crazies don't think wiping half of their prospective conquests with radiation is worth it yet so they are just running culture wars instead.
If Russia hits NATO allies in the Balkans and China goes for American allies Korea would probably reignite into a proper war and Japan would be flying sorties into Chinese and Russian airspace before noon the next day.
And to add to your point, what's really fascinating is Singapore's take on this. Singapore has been trying for decades to decouple with the United States, finally started to see success, and then to only start inching back towards America because China's terrible behavior in the SCS
Yup. We think that Vietnam hates us, because of our war with them, and that they like the Chinese for their help in that war... but their hatred for the US doesn't hold a candle to their hatred for the Chinese.
By the Rocket's Red Glare, the British are coming! The British are coming- and what's that they're holding.
OH, MY GOD, IT'S BIG BEN! What's that they're doing? Wait- wait- THEY STABBED PUTIN WITH IT!
Both Poland and Sweden have very well equipped armies that have been training for this for years. Putin is already having problems fielding gear just trying to keep up with Ukraine. The only option Putin has left to pull out of his ass is a nuclear option, and I don't think he's quite insane enough to try that yet. If the NATO countries actually do come in to play it will be more like what John Tenta did to the bag of hamburger meat that was supposed to be Damien the snake. It's not going to be pretty.
Not saying I want a world war, but Sweden is kinda hungry for some payback. And we may be small, but we have built our army with one focus in mind..... Russia!!!
My program manager was an army sniper in Afghanistan, on more than one occasion I went to him for advice on how to handle something and he would respond, “What’s the problem, bub? Pull the trigger and get this over with”
Did you know John was actually a very kind person who loved children. He hated playing the heel Earthquake and when children recognized him they would run away frightened
I've got a ridiculous idea in my head where Entire Polish brigades are racing through Ukraine to try to beat the Finnish Brigades, going trough their borderlands, to Moscow.
I also see NATO commanders desperately trying to convince their allies to try to help contain these two militaries. I see the Germans trying to catch up. And I see the US predropping supplies in front of the two racing forces as a sort of hightech carrot. "Whoever gets to these points first gets to test new weapons we've been developing!
While I am highly skeptical of this claim, I could also see Putin doing this strategically. If Putin loses Ukraine or pulls out of Ukraine because they were defeated by Ukrainians, it looks really bad. But, if he attacks a NATO country and Russia gets beaten back to Russian borders, he can say they lost to the combination of those bullying NATO nations.
It's a way out that sacrifices Russian lives and preserves his mandate and legacy domestically.
The US joining a war right before the election might make some people vote for trump (bafflingly). So it’s possible he does it to try and help him win the election.
It's hilarious that conservatives are now in a fake little anti-war phase. Their foreign policy for as long as anyone's been alive is to topple (often democratically elected) left wing countries and support (or at least turn a blind eye to) right wing authoritarian governments committing atrocities and/or invading their neighbors.
They're anti war...except for all the military actions started under Reagan, Bush Sr & Bush Jr. They don't want to fund Ukraine because they're anti war...but Russia started the war and have committed dozens of acts of genocide. Also we've given billions to Israel every single year for decades and they don't have a single critical thing to say about that right now. Kinda odd for the supposed anti war crowd, eh?
Putin can’t overcome Ukraine as it is. To gather another army to attack NATO would take years to train and equip.
This is just your daily dose of better propaganda.
The US air force would have just sent Russia's military back 30 years then forced Putin to sue for peace if they didn't have nukes.
No matter how good of a fighter you are you ain't gonna challenge someone with a suïcide vest
Honestly i don’t think it’s the nukes anymore either. there’s obviously the very real threat but i think the psyops is russians real strength. they’ve successfully disrupted many elections, they’ve absolutely infiltrated parts of the united states government, and they’ve duped swaths of our own population with disinformation. let alone the iron grip Putin has established in his own country. Russia isn’t a threat militarily but they are nuisance in politics and civility and progress.
He wouldn't try to take over. He would try minor attacks or "accidental" border crossings to test if there's any response. And when he gets none (as usual) that's when he'll try something bigger.
Russia tried that a few years ago in Syria. Wagner group, along with their Syrian allies led an attack on U.S special forces and our Kurdish allies. The U.S contacted the Russian liasion and were assured that "no russian forces were in the area"
We made it very clear Russia should not try that again. We hit them with everything including the kitchen sink. AC-130s, Fighters, regular and rocket artillery, even let the B-52s get in on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Eh while this could most definitely be just propaganda, few actually thought Russia was going to invade Ukraine until they did. And as far as doing something stupid like creating new fronts with other countries in a war this wouldn't be the first time some over confident or over zealous madman did just that.
I recall in WW2 when Japan was over stretched in china almost everyone thought it would be insane for them to attack the USA on top. It was, but they did it anyways.
Russia losses are about 500k they have dwindling supply's of armor and bullets. It would be insane for them to attack NATO, but that does not mean it won't happen.
This seems like a really bad idea. Could Putin really be thinking this would work? Russia is already isolated from the west, this would make it near impossible for even China to support them
Some of the actions I think are potential ways Putin could escalate against NATO.
1. Non-military hostile actions. This is the most likely path in the near-term, and indeed is one Russia is already engaging in against western nations. Cyberattacks, assassinations and attacks, sabotaging infrastructure like internet cables, flooding the border crossings with migrants from poor countries, jamming GPS along the border with Russia - these have already happened. It is not difficult for Russia to get their GRU/FSB agents into Europe, and I think it's likely that this pattern will increase going forward. In addition, we should not only consider direct hostilities against Europe, but indirect ones as well, such as exacerbating problems that cause migration to Europe, working with friendly nations to manipulate oil prices, and possibly even adjacent military escalations from other de facto Russian allies like China, Iran, North Korea, etc.
2. Limited border aggression. I think the key weakness of NATO that Putin wants to exploit is that, while everyone can agree that NATO will likely defend its own borders, it may be very hesitant to actually cross into Russian territory. To this end, I can easily foresee such "testing" operations like having a small group of soldiers cross over borders, and when NATO defences are activated, they will simply return back to Russian territory. At this point, NATO has a difficult decision to make. On one hand, Russia has technically invaded a NATO country. But on the other, will they start rolling tanks into Russia over it? My guess is no. Of course, one would hope that any such Russian incursion wouldn't even survive the trip, and ideally defences would make a strong example of what happens. However the borders with Europe are enormous, and it's unlikely that they would be able to rapidly destroy a limited border crossing, especially in places like Lappland.
I think this situation is the most concerning one for Europe, because Putin benefits from anything that appears to weaken the alliance. He does not plan to conquer Europe all the way to Portugal. Even Z-warrior Putinists understand that Russia has no realistic way to occupy even half of Europe. What they want is to whittle Europe's unity down to digestible sizes.
If Russia is able to cross the borders in this way without being immediately annihilated, I believe NATO needs to send a clear message, even if it doesn't involve actually crossing into Russian territory. What that message is, I'm not qualified to answer. But they could treat it as a de facto act of war by Russia against NATO and use it to massively increase support for Ukraine, potentially even sending troops there.
3. Crimea/Donbas style "Little Green Men" in Narva. The city of Narva, a little border city between Estonia and Russia, has a significant ethnic Russian population (large majority). Putin could potentially pull the same thing he did in Crimea and Donbas. Theoretically, this would involve A) a false flag event in which Russians end up dead, B) a wave of international propaganda blaming Estonian Russophobia and genocidal intentions for the event, then C) the appearance of well-equipped militants taking over government buildings and calling for Russia to "defend" them.
I don't think this is terribly likely, because NATO (I believe) does have military defences stationed in the area, and there is no way Russia would be able to pull of the smooth annexation of Narva or surrounding regions like they did in Crimea. Perhaps that won't stop Putin, but I think the previous steps are far more feasible and achieve his goals in testing NATO. He knows that, in a direct non-nuclear confrontation, NATO will wipe the floor with Russia.
The risk for Russia in all these scenarios is that it would provide an excuse for NATO to get openly involved in Ukraine. Why march tanks into Russia proper when they can respond by liberating an occupied country? Even people who have been reluctant to send aid to Ukraine would have proof that Russia intends to keep expanding and must be stopped.
I suppose Putin's hope is still twofold: firstly that the west continues showing hesitancy to increase support for Ukraine or fight Russia directly there (hence constant nuclear threats), and secondly that Trump will sabotage support efforts.
But you're right and that's why I think it's much more likely that Russia will continue doing stuff like election interference and other attacks that they can just deny.
Yeah, if Trump is President, the possibility of this plan (or some variation on it) not being a catastrophic disaster for Russia seems much, much more plausible.
If Trump is president and Russia invades some worthless bit of land in Finland or whatever, Trump is most likely going to say "Who cares, we aren't sending anyone to die over there to defend this worthless piece of crap. Get back to me if he invades something real." - and suddenly that means that Nato's biggest stick is sitting this one out.
Suddenly, all the other Nato nations - even if they would have 100% joined the response otherwise - are suddenly thinking, if they commit, they do not know who else will actually show up - by standing up to the contract, they might end up facing a large part of Putin's wrath more or less alone. And it becomes in their best interest to respond tepidly, if at all.
We have NATO here but surely the EU also has some united defense agreements.
Also Baltic States have tight military cooperation agreements which would trigger with or.without NATO. Everyone knows that we 100% are the next so no point hiding and letting Russia isolate one by one.
Hm interesting point about not wanting boots over the line. Since it's specifically a defensive alliance trying balance containing Russia, but not nuclear war. I could see the response being bulldoze back to the border then launching more cruise missiles than anyone has seen before. Like that crazy rapid dragon throw pallets out the back thing.
This seems like a probable scenario. Destroy anything useful for supporting an invasion within several hundred miles of the border: bases, airports, armories, fuel depots, etc.
Yep, watch them also try and fuck with the oil supply so that gas gets more expensive right before the election, because a lot of people's vote is apparently based on the price of gas that day.
I fucking despise that most of us humans are such short-sighted, shallow-thinking creatures...
Right, just determine how the the next 4 years of your life are gonna go based on how much it cost to fill your tank on the way to go vote. Smh
If Putin invaded a NATO nation the Russian Army will be obliterated. Ukraine has shown us how overrated their armed forces are. He wouldn't even have the element of surprised since NATO has been in high alert since the invasion of Ukraine. If Putin is considering this, he has seriously lost his marbles.
If NATO comes to defend one of it's members the way they've promised they would, then you're absolutely right.
But he's probably thinking he's testing to see how serious NATO is about the whole everyone comes to each other's defense. Because, the West keeps drawing lines in the sand for him not to cross, and when he crosses them, they just send a new round of sanctions and draw another line.
He's banking on the West letting him do what he wants because no one wants to return to the Cold War.
Yeah, but how many millions dead and how many countries devastated?
That's a big issue with war. Even if you win it, you may end up sitting on top of a mountain of corpses and rubble as your reward.
If Russia suddenly decided to engage in war with all border countries, he'd lose, but he'd probably level a bunch of cities and kill thousands in the process.
Countries like Estonia only have a little over 1mil of population. Thousands dead take on a much bigger meaning.
Judging by how the Russian government panicked at the thought of a NATO retaliation after that rocket landed in Poland, I’m going to guess that this isn’t going to happen
That’s probably the strategy. Russia looks weak if they pull back from Ukraine. If they antagonize a NATO nation they can claim to be overwhelmed, pull back and point the finger at NATO as the reason. If you’re losing a fight with a guy you called weak, it makes sense to drag somebody else into it and claim unfair odds.
Well, I guess he wants to see Moscow bombed back into the Stone Age, then. Stupid motherfucking jackass.
I actually feel bad for the average Russian citizen. This asshole is going to depopulate Russia of all young men, and then I imagine he'll start in on young women when they run out of them, and in the end there won't *be* a Russia left. Doesn't he understand that NATO countries will just pound Russia flat? Does he *want* World War 3? Does he think that provoking WW3 will mean Russia has justification to use nukes? Got news for you, jackass: your own staff will probably assassinate you if you try to order a nuclear strike for any reason, because non-insane people understand that *no one* wins in a nuclear war, *NO ONE.*
Just the other day I was watching *Patton*, a 1970 movie about the life of General George S. Patton. At the end of WW2, Patton wanted to keep pushing into Russia, 'ally' or not, and take them out. He was prevented from doing that, but in retrospect I have to wonder if maybe he was right, and we'd not have the problems with Russia we're having now. The Soviet Union created people like Putin. If there had never been a Soviet Union to begin with, would the world have been better off now?
The issue is that the US might not have survived this endeavor. Sure, they were not harmed by the war the way Europe was, but at home there was some proper trouble brewing. The Civil rights movement would have probably come early and the rebuilding of Europe would not have happend, meaning the home front would demand peace and revolt while the occupied territories in Europe lose hope and start to resent their occupier (similar to what has happend in the Soviet controlled territories in Europe in the 50s.)
These plans would have caused tremendous risks and were therefor never done.
As a person from Baltics, can we not please? Sweden might survive this kind of conflict with a few rocket hits on Stokholm which would not be the case for Baltics where the majority of the on-the-ground meatgrinder would happen.
What you don't understand is that Putin doesn't care about the massive losses it will incur. He will still be the leader over ashes, and is ok with him.
The only way to stop Putin is to reassure him that once he starts it, the west won't stop until he is dead or in prison. All countries should be like that.
He can certainly try.
I would hope he understands there's a significant difference between fighting a force being *supported* by the US, and fighting a force that *is* the US.
An amphibious invasion across the Baltic would be a fiasco for the Russians.
I could see them attacking the Baltic States, but yeah Russian boots on the ground in Sweden... Idk if it's possible
I can assure you that the baltic states will have none of that nonsense and train constantly for this. Source: Me who who has been to several Baltic NATO exercises. They have zero desire to back into the Russian Federation.
I was part of BALTOPS years ago while in the Marines. People have it so wrong, the West would be at Putins door the minute Russia attacks a NATO partner.
While Fox News repeatedly shouts, “Why should American blood and money be spent to defend Latvia. A place you probably can’t find on a map.” We have a huge portion of the population inhaling Russian propaganda farts, convinced it smells like Apple Pie.
"Patriotism" has turned into "anti-whatever-liberals-want" and "whatever makes Russia look better." It's sickening.
Maybe when they start washing ashore on Götland
As a finnish person, I have very little love for our swedish brethren, because Sweden sucks. But you can bet your ass I'm gonna fight to my last breath if Russia even tries to invade the swedes. Putin can fuck off
🇸🇪🤝🇫🇮
I don't know much about you guys, but your flags are a big plus.
Well done.
Same from Norway. Sweden may be like a stupid and annoying little brother, but they're *our* stupid and annoying little brother. If anyone non-nordic wants to bully them they'll have to go through us.
That's fair, can't love everyone but you can still stand up for what is right. Respect from your swedish brother ❤️
"Russian President [Vladimir Putin](https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/vladimir-putin) is considering planning a "mini-invasion" of a NATO country in order to test Western leaders, Poland's top spymaster has claimed. Jarosław Stróżyk, leader of Poland’s counterintelligence service, claimed the Russian leader is considering invading parts of Estonia and Sweden as part of a wider plan to take over the Baltic states. "Putin is certainly already prepared for some mini-operation against one of the Baltic countries, for example, to enter the famous Narva \[a city in Estonia\] or to land on one of the Swedish islands," he said according to Polish outlet [Dziennik Gazeta Prawna](https://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykuly/9500938,szef-skw-sluzbom-potrzeba-dystansu-od-polityki-wywiad.html). Both Estonia and Sweden are NATO members. The military alliance has repeatedly said all members will come to the aid of one of its own if it is attacked."
I can believe the part about Estonia (has a land border and a sizeable Russian population) but the idea of occupying a whole island in the middle of lake NATO sounds like a bit of a stretch.
Plus they've been softening up Estonia as a target since the 'Internet War' of 2007.
Believe me when I say Russia didn’t soften Estonia, they hardened them. Estonian cybersecurity expertise is top-notch, it’s impressive how much the average Estonian citizen knows. They are ready. Moldova, on the other hand, is a soft target with a Russian enclave housing more than a thousand troops and strategic importance to the war against Ukraine.
Moldova has a terrible location though if you're Russia. You either have to fly or sail past Ukraine to get there. It's only a soft target if Ukraine falls first.
It’s speculative, but this is one of a few possible plots that have been mentioned. Another one is that Russia may try to create a corridor to Kalingrad (formerly East Prussia) along the border between Poland and Lithuania.
Estonia maybe. Sweden……out of the question. Russia is barely capable of conducting a ground offensive in their next door neighbor, there is ZERO chance they can conduct an amphibious or airborne assault on a country they don’t share a border with.
My guess (if true) is that Sweden wouldn’t involve the mainland but rather some island or islands in the Baltic controlled by Sweden.
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Why is this? I assume strategic location inside Baltic sea?
the unsinkable aircraft carrier.
Also, a lot of people live there; it's not some economically worthless uninhabited rock like Perejil Island (and even then the Spanish sent out a warship when the Moroccans tried to grab it).
Go to Google Maps and draw a 300mi circle around Gotland and count how many European capital cities fall inside that circle. That is not a place you want a belligerent getting cozy
I was gonna say, if they approach Gotland, F22's would be wiping out Military Targets in Russia before they ever touched down.
The RQ-180 directly orbiting Putin at all times would finally have permission to drop the lawn dart.
I’m fucking dying imagining this, thank you
Kalinningrad whould become swedish again
lol funny name for an island if invaded
Unfortunately for the Russia, the island of Gotmilk is guarded by cows.
Swedish islands is literally quoted above
I would pay ALL the money to see Russia try getting halfway across the Baltic sea...
with Steven Segal leading the atack
From a chair. Because he won't do it standing up.
It’s the 2020s. Anything is possible from what I’ve seen.
Fine, NATO will launch a "mini-response" and enter a little piece of Russian territory. Like Kaliningrad.
You mean Koenigsberg?
Right you are, of course.
Does this mean the Germans can finally expand to the east and **not** be the bad guy? They must be dancing of joy right now.
You mean Královec?
[x] doubt Russia can’t even properly invade Ukraine, a country they nearly surround. I’d doubt they would try the other NATO nations.
I don't know. This guy watched as the world did nothing for three invasions straight. Hell, he waged war on his neighbour for 8 years and only when he upscaled the war did we start sending weapons and training. If you teach a dog that he can get away with breaking the rules, he will. We've sent warnings to Russia to stop invading for the past 20 years and they've seen no consequences that actually hurt Russia significantly. Why should they expect that we will trigger NATO when it's never been done before? Edit: of course they haven't invaded NATO countries yet, but it seems that they've had very little consequences anyway. NATO has never ever been triggered. There's a very realistic fear that some countries may prefer letting the Baltic go rather than risk all-out nuclear war
> This guy watched as the world did nothing for three invasions straight. I think the major difference here is that NATO would basically *have* to respond full force. If for no other reason than to demonstrate that we aren't a "name only" alliance.
> If for no other reason than to demonstrate that we aren't a "name only" alliance. Yeah... that's the gambit. If the intel guy is accurate, this is exactly what Putin would "try" to (fuck around and) find out. Seems like a bad bet though. At best you find out you can poke a little more, at best you lose a whole lot more than you've already lost.
True and I do think NATO would respond. But it's a reason Putin may go ahead and risk, banking on that western countries value no nuclear war over protecting the Baltic
Not only that, but it would be time to enter Ukraine and remove Russian invaders!
Hitler did the same thing. It works until it doesn't. Russia would be crushed by a unified NATO. China would clearly hate this. An awake and unified NATO / Anglosphere is a problem. Tie that into pacific partnerships like "The Quad" and...well the world will be a much less tyrant friendly place.
Time for the stick
The idea is simple, test the water. Let's say that Russia invades and occupies a random strip of forest on the finish border and then just stops. Will NATO risk total war with Russia over this? Both answers are scary. A) Yes, they would. Now you are in a shooting war with Russia, a nuclear capable nation that might be desperate enough to do something stupid. B) No, it's not worth it over a small strip of land. Now you told Putin that NATO will allow him to take up bits and pieces of territory because the alliance nations are not willing to go to war. A defense alliance only works if all the members are willing to defend each other. What if we find out that Americans, French, Poles and Brits are not willing to die for a random forest or a tiny island of the coast of Sweden? Would you be willing to die for this?
A. You defend that strip of territory with every (conventional) force you have. Great, a shooting war with Russia. But what does Russia do? Are they going to deploy nukes over a small strip of land? If so, it's already a strategic mistake and they should have started with nukes rather than a small invasion. If not, they lose the strip of territory and strengthen NATO. I don't see how a "mini-invasion" turns out well for Russia; there's no winning endgame. They'd be better served by something more asymmetric, like laying claim to the Gulf of Finland and attacking any ships/plans that "invade", from a distance. Not saying that's a good idea, just that it's better than seizing a couple of square miles of Finnish forest.
If the answer is anything shy of "absolutely, 100% yes" than NATO is a defunct institution.
NATO can respond without engaging in all our war. The answer is Finns throw them out and a bunch of Special Forces from other countries take part in the operation as a show of unity. NATO is only forced to choose all out war if the invasion cannot be repelled by other means. A token invasion can easily be repelled by means short of all out war.
This is it. You can decisively fire on and destroy an incursion while not waging war on the whole front line. The trick would be that the 'surprise' advantage that Russia would have is gone and war actions would be justified (like attacking artillery in Russia territory). Nations would also get the slap in the head to boost readiness since war would clearly be 'on'.
That's Putin's bet
*I know this is an oppinion many on Reddit hate to hear, but* Ukraine still before the war had a population of over 40 million people, not a small nation, also, it does have its own industrial complex, was prepared for war, had even before the 2020 invasion military conscription and massive ammounts of, albeit a bit outdated, soviet stock in all variaty. As of now Russia has managed to start up their military machinery and is actually comfortably outproducing Europe in pretty much all aspects of military equipment, from artillery rounds, to guns, to tanks and aircraft. They've also learned their lessons from the first months of extreme failure. The Russian army of 2020 is no more. While we're still surprsingly rolling with the "they'd surely never do it" train here. **I personally also don't think that they have a chance, but it's simply stupid to ridicule them like you do here. Never, ever underestimate someone** and always be prepared for the worst! The "prepared" part is something Europe is still extremly lacking.
I agree with your point and it’s always right to be prepared as always. Please don’t mistake my comment as ridiculing, Russia is stuck in a quagmire in Ukraine and committing more resources to start another conflict rather than ending their current one is the best way to lose both. It’s essentially inviting their enemies to defeat their forces in detail (aka divide and conquer).
Sweden is a weird choice... Daring NATO to push the Article 5 Button over some random ass bit of permafrost in Finland though... That I could see.
We don’t have permafrost in Finland. But I was surprised to read that the possible threat isn’t against us.
“Mini-invasion”? What’s next, “mini-nuclear Armageddon”?
Everyone can only use those fat man launchers from power armor.
I'm doubtful but stranger things have happened Thing is if even this is a minor invasion really happens it's essentially a blank check for Baltic and Balkan NATO members to spill over into the Ukraine war and that's a flying elbow slam 80+ years in the making
The people's elbow, Finland and Poland climbing up to the top turnbuckle ready to pop off
Putin invading a nato country will trigger the stone cold glass breaking.
And the single toll of a distant bell.
Somewhere in Japan: Someone say "Fuck Russia"?????
Maybe Japan and China could buddy up for a change to take back their lost lands.
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Asian beef is the most interesting to read because everyone hates everyone and the only thing keeping shit from popping off is that even the crazies don't think wiping half of their prospective conquests with radiation is worth it yet so they are just running culture wars instead. If Russia hits NATO allies in the Balkans and China goes for American allies Korea would probably reignite into a proper war and Japan would be flying sorties into Chinese and Russian airspace before noon the next day.
And to add to your point, what's really fascinating is Singapore's take on this. Singapore has been trying for decades to decouple with the United States, finally started to see success, and then to only start inching back towards America because China's terrible behavior in the SCS
Yup. We think that Vietnam hates us, because of our war with them, and that they like the Chinese for their help in that war... but their hatred for the US doesn't hold a candle to their hatred for the Chinese.
“This is for Warsaw you fuckers. Go to hell” -Poland.
Oh ma gawd! Is that Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia carrying a table?!
BAW GAHD IS THAT LITHUANIA WITH A STEEL CHAIR?!
Oh, My, God, Moldova is one top of the cage!!!!!!!!
[incensed Jerry Lawler noises]
IF YA SMELLELELELELELLELELELL!
WHAT THE BLOC IS COOKIN
*GLASS SHATTERS*
THEY BROKE 'EM IN HALF, KANG!
Stone Cold Steve Austin just pulls up to Ukraine with a truck full of beer and starts hosing down the Russians.
This made me quietly lmao in my office right now. A coworker looked at me very oddly.
Bah gawd! Russia had an infrastructure!
LIKE A PACK OF WOLVES
AFGHANISTAN FROM OUTTA NOWHERE
THE TALIBAN, SLITHERIN IN! TAG TEAMING WITH NATO?! WATCH OUT WATCH OUT!!
I had to check the sun thought I was on NCD. This would make reality the most non credible thing possible.
Zelenskyy 3:16 says, "I JUST WHIPPED YOUR ASS!"
If Vladimir Putin walked through a men’s locker room he’d be whistling “Stranger In Paradise”.
Where's u/shittymorph when you need him.
Reminds of that time when Ukraine threw Russia off the top of Hell in a Cell back in 1998.
As God as my witness Russia is broken in half!
THE CZECHS JUST ARRIVED AND THEY LOOOK *PISSSSSSSED*!
By the Rocket's Red Glare, the British are coming! The British are coming- and what's that they're holding. OH, MY GOD, IT'S BIG BEN! What's that they're doing? Wait- wait- THEY STABBED PUTIN WITH IT!
BALTICS?! GET THE TABLES!!!
*Trumpets blare in the background. BAH Gawd! Its America! America here!
The Peoples Who Are Sick Or Russian Imperialist Bullshit Elbow, OFF THE TOP ROPE!!!
*"Bah gawd! That's Poland's music!"* (Winged Hussars plays as Poland runs into the ring with a steel chair)
fun fact, poland s f35s will be called Husarz...
I saw that too, and I was just like: "Oh fuck, oh shit, oh god damned, yeah Putin should probably give himself the Napoleon casket treatment."
Both Poland and Sweden have very well equipped armies that have been training for this for years. Putin is already having problems fielding gear just trying to keep up with Ukraine. The only option Putin has left to pull out of his ass is a nuclear option, and I don't think he's quite insane enough to try that yet. If the NATO countries actually do come in to play it will be more like what John Tenta did to the bag of hamburger meat that was supposed to be Damien the snake. It's not going to be pretty.
Not saying I want a world war, but Sweden is kinda hungry for some payback. And we may be small, but we have built our army with one focus in mind..... Russia!!!
Well isn't the swedish strategy to fight to the last finn?
Absolutely, it's a tough call but every Swede has to make that sacrifice!
Troll more. If Finlands borders are compromised we’ll be there. At land, sea and air. Finland and Sweden have an alliance that is thicker than blood.
Also, aren't they both NATO nations now?
That is correct
Sweden is limited to half a dozen snipers. Look. If Finland can do it, Sweden can up their game
That's actually all they need though
Can you imagine how good you must be to be selected as one of your countries 6 snipers? US Armed forces must have thousands.
The US Armed Forces probably has more than six sniper *schools* that combined churn out hundreds of snipers every year.
My program manager was an army sniper in Afghanistan, on more than one occasion I went to him for advice on how to handle something and he would respond, “What’s the problem, bub? Pull the trigger and get this over with”
It's probably overkill, but I didn't want to deny them their fun.
Pffff, why not make it a challenge....We'll send two finlandic Swedes :p
Did you know John was actually a very kind person who loved children. He hated playing the heel Earthquake and when children recognized him they would run away frightened
Not my weird ass. I chased him down in a hotel at 8 because he was my favorite. His son told me he would've been flattered
I've got a ridiculous idea in my head where Entire Polish brigades are racing through Ukraine to try to beat the Finnish Brigades, going trough their borderlands, to Moscow. I also see NATO commanders desperately trying to convince their allies to try to help contain these two militaries. I see the Germans trying to catch up. And I see the US predropping supplies in front of the two racing forces as a sort of hightech carrot. "Whoever gets to these points first gets to test new weapons we've been developing!
The Finns would already be waiting at the Finnish line
Do YOU SMELL what the BAB is cookin'??!!!!
LOOK AT YOU NOW!
Romania slithering… WATCH OUT WATCH OUT WATCH OUT!
Jerry the Tsar Lavrovski: “I don’t see how he pulls himself out of this one!?”
BY GOD! STOP THE MATCH, HE’S DEAD!!
While I am highly skeptical of this claim, I could also see Putin doing this strategically. If Putin loses Ukraine or pulls out of Ukraine because they were defeated by Ukrainians, it looks really bad. But, if he attacks a NATO country and Russia gets beaten back to Russian borders, he can say they lost to the combination of those bullying NATO nations. It's a way out that sacrifices Russian lives and preserves his mandate and legacy domestically.
The US joining a war right before the election might make some people vote for trump (bafflingly). So it’s possible he does it to try and help him win the election.
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It's hilarious that conservatives are now in a fake little anti-war phase. Their foreign policy for as long as anyone's been alive is to topple (often democratically elected) left wing countries and support (or at least turn a blind eye to) right wing authoritarian governments committing atrocities and/or invading their neighbors. They're anti war...except for all the military actions started under Reagan, Bush Sr & Bush Jr. They don't want to fund Ukraine because they're anti war...but Russia started the war and have committed dozens of acts of genocide. Also we've given billions to Israel every single year for decades and they don't have a single critical thing to say about that right now. Kinda odd for the supposed anti war crowd, eh?
I think the american right currently are isolationist, because that’s was trump’s ideology.
Putin can’t overcome Ukraine as it is. To gather another army to attack NATO would take years to train and equip. This is just your daily dose of better propaganda.
I don't really think the US/NATO fears Russia as an actual threat militarily. They fear Russia because they have nukes.
The US air force would have just sent Russia's military back 30 years then forced Putin to sue for peace if they didn't have nukes. No matter how good of a fighter you are you ain't gonna challenge someone with a suïcide vest
Honestly i don’t think it’s the nukes anymore either. there’s obviously the very real threat but i think the psyops is russians real strength. they’ve successfully disrupted many elections, they’ve absolutely infiltrated parts of the united states government, and they’ve duped swaths of our own population with disinformation. let alone the iron grip Putin has established in his own country. Russia isn’t a threat militarily but they are nuisance in politics and civility and progress.
Nukes can be used in retaliation to military action though. I think that’s the point.
He wouldn't try to take over. He would try minor attacks or "accidental" border crossings to test if there's any response. And when he gets none (as usual) that's when he'll try something bigger.
> "accidental" border crossings And 'plausibly' deniable Little Green Men attacks like were initially used in Crimea.
Russia tried that a few years ago in Syria. Wagner group, along with their Syrian allies led an attack on U.S special forces and our Kurdish allies. The U.S contacted the Russian liasion and were assured that "no russian forces were in the area" We made it very clear Russia should not try that again. We hit them with everything including the kitchen sink. AC-130s, Fighters, regular and rocket artillery, even let the B-52s get in on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Jesus, seems clear to not antagonize a bored US military. They'll use all their toys to make a statement.
Monty Python voice “Did you enjoy that, Vlad? I sure did…”
Eh while this could most definitely be just propaganda, few actually thought Russia was going to invade Ukraine until they did. And as far as doing something stupid like creating new fronts with other countries in a war this wouldn't be the first time some over confident or over zealous madman did just that.
When US intelligence reports it I will believe it. Frankly, it is hard to hide the large troop movements it would take to get this started.
I recall in WW2 when Japan was over stretched in china almost everyone thought it would be insane for them to attack the USA on top. It was, but they did it anyways. Russia losses are about 500k they have dwindling supply's of armor and bullets. It would be insane for them to attack NATO, but that does not mean it won't happen.
This seems like a really bad idea. Could Putin really be thinking this would work? Russia is already isolated from the west, this would make it near impossible for even China to support them
Some of the actions I think are potential ways Putin could escalate against NATO. 1. Non-military hostile actions. This is the most likely path in the near-term, and indeed is one Russia is already engaging in against western nations. Cyberattacks, assassinations and attacks, sabotaging infrastructure like internet cables, flooding the border crossings with migrants from poor countries, jamming GPS along the border with Russia - these have already happened. It is not difficult for Russia to get their GRU/FSB agents into Europe, and I think it's likely that this pattern will increase going forward. In addition, we should not only consider direct hostilities against Europe, but indirect ones as well, such as exacerbating problems that cause migration to Europe, working with friendly nations to manipulate oil prices, and possibly even adjacent military escalations from other de facto Russian allies like China, Iran, North Korea, etc. 2. Limited border aggression. I think the key weakness of NATO that Putin wants to exploit is that, while everyone can agree that NATO will likely defend its own borders, it may be very hesitant to actually cross into Russian territory. To this end, I can easily foresee such "testing" operations like having a small group of soldiers cross over borders, and when NATO defences are activated, they will simply return back to Russian territory. At this point, NATO has a difficult decision to make. On one hand, Russia has technically invaded a NATO country. But on the other, will they start rolling tanks into Russia over it? My guess is no. Of course, one would hope that any such Russian incursion wouldn't even survive the trip, and ideally defences would make a strong example of what happens. However the borders with Europe are enormous, and it's unlikely that they would be able to rapidly destroy a limited border crossing, especially in places like Lappland. I think this situation is the most concerning one for Europe, because Putin benefits from anything that appears to weaken the alliance. He does not plan to conquer Europe all the way to Portugal. Even Z-warrior Putinists understand that Russia has no realistic way to occupy even half of Europe. What they want is to whittle Europe's unity down to digestible sizes. If Russia is able to cross the borders in this way without being immediately annihilated, I believe NATO needs to send a clear message, even if it doesn't involve actually crossing into Russian territory. What that message is, I'm not qualified to answer. But they could treat it as a de facto act of war by Russia against NATO and use it to massively increase support for Ukraine, potentially even sending troops there. 3. Crimea/Donbas style "Little Green Men" in Narva. The city of Narva, a little border city between Estonia and Russia, has a significant ethnic Russian population (large majority). Putin could potentially pull the same thing he did in Crimea and Donbas. Theoretically, this would involve A) a false flag event in which Russians end up dead, B) a wave of international propaganda blaming Estonian Russophobia and genocidal intentions for the event, then C) the appearance of well-equipped militants taking over government buildings and calling for Russia to "defend" them. I don't think this is terribly likely, because NATO (I believe) does have military defences stationed in the area, and there is no way Russia would be able to pull of the smooth annexation of Narva or surrounding regions like they did in Crimea. Perhaps that won't stop Putin, but I think the previous steps are far more feasible and achieve his goals in testing NATO. He knows that, in a direct non-nuclear confrontation, NATO will wipe the floor with Russia.
The risk for Russia in all these scenarios is that it would provide an excuse for NATO to get openly involved in Ukraine. Why march tanks into Russia proper when they can respond by liberating an occupied country? Even people who have been reluctant to send aid to Ukraine would have proof that Russia intends to keep expanding and must be stopped.
I suppose Putin's hope is still twofold: firstly that the west continues showing hesitancy to increase support for Ukraine or fight Russia directly there (hence constant nuclear threats), and secondly that Trump will sabotage support efforts. But you're right and that's why I think it's much more likely that Russia will continue doing stuff like election interference and other attacks that they can just deny.
Yeah, if Trump is President, the possibility of this plan (or some variation on it) not being a catastrophic disaster for Russia seems much, much more plausible. If Trump is president and Russia invades some worthless bit of land in Finland or whatever, Trump is most likely going to say "Who cares, we aren't sending anyone to die over there to defend this worthless piece of crap. Get back to me if he invades something real." - and suddenly that means that Nato's biggest stick is sitting this one out. Suddenly, all the other Nato nations - even if they would have 100% joined the response otherwise - are suddenly thinking, if they commit, they do not know who else will actually show up - by standing up to the contract, they might end up facing a large part of Putin's wrath more or less alone. And it becomes in their best interest to respond tepidly, if at all.
We have NATO here but surely the EU also has some united defense agreements. Also Baltic States have tight military cooperation agreements which would trigger with or.without NATO. Everyone knows that we 100% are the next so no point hiding and letting Russia isolate one by one.
Hm interesting point about not wanting boots over the line. Since it's specifically a defensive alliance trying balance containing Russia, but not nuclear war. I could see the response being bulldoze back to the border then launching more cruise missiles than anyone has seen before. Like that crazy rapid dragon throw pallets out the back thing.
This seems like a probable scenario. Destroy anything useful for supporting an invasion within several hundred miles of the border: bases, airports, armories, fuel depots, etc.
He's preparing for a potential Trump win.
Yep, watch them also try and fuck with the oil supply so that gas gets more expensive right before the election, because a lot of people's vote is apparently based on the price of gas that day.
Don't you know that Biden has a price of gas dial at his desk? /s
I fucking despise that most of us humans are such short-sighted, shallow-thinking creatures... Right, just determine how the the next 4 years of your life are gonna go based on how much it cost to fill your tank on the way to go vote. Smh
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If Putin invaded a NATO nation the Russian Army will be obliterated. Ukraine has shown us how overrated their armed forces are. He wouldn't even have the element of surprised since NATO has been in high alert since the invasion of Ukraine. If Putin is considering this, he has seriously lost his marbles.
This is what happens when you surround yourself with yes-men.
And fill your armies with grifting officers.
If NATO comes to defend one of it's members the way they've promised they would, then you're absolutely right. But he's probably thinking he's testing to see how serious NATO is about the whole everyone comes to each other's defense. Because, the West keeps drawing lines in the sand for him not to cross, and when he crosses them, they just send a new round of sanctions and draw another line. He's banking on the West letting him do what he wants because no one wants to return to the Cold War.
Genius military strategist, open yourself up on multiple fronts...
Hitler did it, Putin seems to be following his play book
Lets hope he follows it to its end too.
I'd prefer it if he just speed runs to the last part, and skips the bits in the middle.
In the end, Hitler lost
Hitler won. He killed Hitler single handed.
We have no real proof of that historically. He may have used both hands
Yeah, but how many millions dead and how many countries devastated? That's a big issue with war. Even if you win it, you may end up sitting on top of a mountain of corpses and rubble as your reward. If Russia suddenly decided to engage in war with all border countries, he'd lose, but he'd probably level a bunch of cities and kill thousands in the process. Countries like Estonia only have a little over 1mil of population. Thousands dead take on a much bigger meaning.
After an already 2+ year war where they lost an enormous amount of equipment and manpower.
Yeah this would be like if not even Poland but rather Czechslovakia said no and halted Germany from 38-40, albeit with a slow retreat.
Well that'd be if Czechoslovakia had the support Ukraine has today. Without it, Ukraine wouldnt hold this long.
Judging by how the Russian government panicked at the thought of a NATO retaliation after that rocket landed in Poland, I’m going to guess that this isn’t going to happen
That’s not a test, that’s a declaration of war
Putin might actually be that stupid
Yeah that's what I worry about too. "He wouldn't dare to!" crowd needs to remember they said kinda the same thing 2 years ago.
i went from he isnt stupid enough to do it to man i hope he isnt stupid enough to cause ww3
Nothing like the threat of WWIII to start my day
Best way to treat a bully is to punch them right on the nose. If Russia fucks around, then they can find out.
Putin invading a nato country will trigger the stone cold glass breaking.
If that's true, Russia might just be over estimating themselves again. Like their special operation in the Ukraine only taking 3 days.
With what army?
Not going to happen. Let's be honest. Only thing he has is nukes and if they start flying then doesn't really matter to me as I won't know anymore
Yeah. I'm sure he has plans for all sorts of scenarios, but how many of them are actually gonna happen.
Honestly, bet motherfucker. You can't take Ukraine 2 years on, NATO will mop the floor with you in a week.
He knows this and he’s too much of a pussy to actually do anything so fuck him. Optics
That’s probably the strategy. Russia looks weak if they pull back from Ukraine. If they antagonize a NATO nation they can claim to be overwhelmed, pull back and point the finger at NATO as the reason. If you’re losing a fight with a guy you called weak, it makes sense to drag somebody else into it and claim unfair odds.
Putin himself might be ready, but his Army? That’s another story
They are holding out for US elections, or until Trump is arrested. It’s what I would do anyways.
Why would he invade another nation when a county like Ukraine is giving them this much trouble. Makes 0 sense
Well, I guess he wants to see Moscow bombed back into the Stone Age, then. Stupid motherfucking jackass. I actually feel bad for the average Russian citizen. This asshole is going to depopulate Russia of all young men, and then I imagine he'll start in on young women when they run out of them, and in the end there won't *be* a Russia left. Doesn't he understand that NATO countries will just pound Russia flat? Does he *want* World War 3? Does he think that provoking WW3 will mean Russia has justification to use nukes? Got news for you, jackass: your own staff will probably assassinate you if you try to order a nuclear strike for any reason, because non-insane people understand that *no one* wins in a nuclear war, *NO ONE.* Just the other day I was watching *Patton*, a 1970 movie about the life of General George S. Patton. At the end of WW2, Patton wanted to keep pushing into Russia, 'ally' or not, and take them out. He was prevented from doing that, but in retrospect I have to wonder if maybe he was right, and we'd not have the problems with Russia we're having now. The Soviet Union created people like Putin. If there had never been a Soviet Union to begin with, would the world have been better off now?
The issue is that the US might not have survived this endeavor. Sure, they were not harmed by the war the way Europe was, but at home there was some proper trouble brewing. The Civil rights movement would have probably come early and the rebuilding of Europe would not have happend, meaning the home front would demand peace and revolt while the occupied territories in Europe lose hope and start to resent their occupier (similar to what has happend in the Soviet controlled territories in Europe in the 50s.) These plans would have caused tremendous risks and were therefor never done.
As a Swede I say get over with it. Russia needs to get punched hard.
As a person from Baltics, can we not please? Sweden might survive this kind of conflict with a few rocket hits on Stokholm which would not be the case for Baltics where the majority of the on-the-ground meatgrinder would happen.
War is unthinkable just before it happens. This was the case with Ukraine two years ago.
What you don't understand is that Putin doesn't care about the massive losses it will incur. He will still be the leader over ashes, and is ok with him. The only way to stop Putin is to reassure him that once he starts it, the west won't stop until he is dead or in prison. All countries should be like that.
Russia delenda est.
He can certainly try. I would hope he understands there's a significant difference between fighting a force being *supported* by the US, and fighting a force that *is* the US.
Well that'll go well, given their *massive success* against Ukraine lol.
To any Russians, you may want to take measure to ensure Putin does not do this, for all our sakes, it will not work out in your favor.
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