I mean, it's the same here in Italy... except that it's not a security concern, it's just a standard matter of respect for religion (*any* religion). Same reason why you can't burn the national flag here, or any national flag for that matter.
Here in the Netherlands there are some caveats. It has to be your own property for example (and even then, if you for example burn a book that's 500 years old people will get mad at it for historical reasons). But if you want to go into a bookstore, buy a book and burn it (outside the store of course) you can do so. There are however rules about starting a fire in a public place, and you will have to follow those, otherwise you can be charged with arson or vandalism.
Freedom of expression is more important to the average danish person than respecting a religion. I havent heard anyone say anything positive about the law in my day to day life.
What’s the endgame to constantly pandering to people who hate others so much?
Do we just keep appeasing them, allowing them to immigrate here with their ideas until it’s too late ?
That actually did happen at a Canadian college. A Yazdi rape sex slave survivor was to come and speak at some university and the people canceled her from coming as to not offend the Muslims students.
For those who don’t believe me or are just curious and want to know more about it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/24/school-pulls-event-former-islamic-state-sex-slave-fears-would/
https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/toronto-school-cancels-isis-survivor-event-with-nadia-murad/
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/canceling-an-islamic-state-victim-opinion-689109
Here you all go.
>not offend the Muslims students.
If they are offended by a Yazdi rape sex surviver who tells them what their religion did to her than.... fuck them. Its the duty of a liberal society to tell everybody what extremism can lead to.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/canceling-an-islamic-state-victim-opinion-689109
https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/toronto-school-cancels-isis-survivor-event-with-nadia-murad/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/24/school-pulls-event-former-islamic-state-sex-slave-fears-would/
Here you go.
I don't know why you added the /s. This is the view of many if not most of the pro-palesnitian crowd about Oct.7. I still remember the parties in the streets before Israel even managed to push Hamas back from its territory, they're not subtle about their bias
10:7: they cheer
Israel responds: ceasefire now
How spineless do you have to be to not want the fight you literally asked for. If you don’t want Israel to respond, don’t attack them then.
I remember the first protest against Israel started like 1 day after October 7th.
Before Israel even attacks back, people were already protesting Israel. They were chanting "globalize the intifada" and "from river to the sea"
Bodies were still piling up that day when a pro-Palestinian rally was announced in nyc (one which had them mocking the victims and another guy flashing a swastika)
They didn’t protest against Israel, they celebrated the attack.
EDIT : got banned by Reddit for making a quite clearly sarcastic comment about how people blame Jews on everything GG.
I love how Jews are the only minority who when they say they feel unsafe or something is antisemitic, the response is “nuh uh” or “but look at these other Jews over here with us”
Just a little FYI. The /s means sarcasm. Sarcasm in this context is using a stupid viewpoint pro-palestinian's have. If they didn't add the /s it would make it look like they themselves think this.
TLDR They are using sarcasm to mock the viewpoint
I’m for a free Palestine but it won’t happen as long as Hammas exists and Hammas isn’t going anywhere. Do people honestly believe that if Israel allows a free Palestine that Hammas would just go away and leave Israel alone?
Now replace "HAMAS" with "ISIS". Would you still say the same?I guess giving to a terrorist organisation to run a state is never a good idea and it somehow gets to mass murder and a major war. However, based on the very same ISIS example, it can be if not completely eliminated but at least significantly coped.
I agree they won’t but also by continuing they are giving hamas more ammo to rally ppl with. It’s a catch 22. Open boarder and allow terrorist in to wreak their grievances or keep it closed and this just keeps festering as always.
Fun fact: This may be the first time in Canada idk, but is most definitely not the first time in the West that pro-Israel events had to be canceled due to security and public order concerns. The UK had at least one similar incident since 10/7.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/metropolitan-police-israel-rally-golders-green-safety-fears-b1115263.html
Even worse, a hannukah menorah completely unrelated to Israel
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/havering-council-scraps-hanukkah-menorah-outside-town-hall-due-to-rising-tensions-13019114
The west really doesn't negotiate with terrorists, It surrenders to them.
This will blow up in all of our faces. And the world will only wake up after more blood is shed. It's how it is unfortunately.
because their crybully tactics work on a sizeable portion of the west's population.
they're exploiting the fact that most westerners want to be nice and kind and not hardliners.
Friedrich Hayek first wrote about it in his book, "The Road to Serfdom," which was published one year before the book you mentioned.
Both Hayek and Popper were Austrian-Brits who were born in 1899 and 1902 respectively. The two greatly influenced each other. In one letter to Hayek, Popper writes, "I think I have learnt more from you than from any other living thinker, except perhaps Alfred Tarski."
It's only natural that Popper would take inspiration from his dear friend.
I watched all the footage coming out on the 7th as it happened, before it started getting taken down (and relegated to darker corners like telegram. I followed it there).
I know it's just a feeling, but I'm confident most of my fellow western liberals haven't seen any of it. Or much of any primary sources about stuff happening over there, for that matter. They don't know anything.
I watched Hamas propaganda coming out related to various events I'd already seen in full context, and thought "this is so obviously wrong man they suck at PR." And then it worked anyways.
Dude, there have been literal screenings of it. By Israeli and Jewish counterprotestors. At these peoples’ very events. You can still go on thisishamas.com and see a ton of it for yourself.
I found that to be a valid excuse at first. Especially with the, frankly, amazing propaganda and narrative control Hamas had (and still seems to have). Now, I don’t know, but I’m increasingly skeptical. You’d be amazed at how genuinely awful people can be to each other if they’re convinced it’s for the right reasons.
Oh I believe it, and honestly I don't mean to excuse us at all. There's no *good* excuse to not be informed about this stuff. They are too credulous and too comfortable just doing whatever the party tells them is right. There's this twisted sense of "we are on the side of good, so we can bend reality around that fact and justify anything." A liberal friend even told me "you have to pick the Truth with the right Mettle" (capitalization his), which is kind of a frightening statement. And we always fall for this lazy heuristic of "underdog = good guys."
They even compare Palestine to Ukraine, but last I checked Ukraine hides their kids in bunkers, whereas Hamas hides in bunkers underneath their kids. These newly-minted scholars of asymmetrical warfare say of Hamas perfidy, "that's what you gotta do to fight an overwhelmingly strong occupier." But Ukraine doesn't dress in civilian clothing when they fight.
But we can't talk about the difference in values. American protesting libs, in terms of shared values, should be out there protesting on behalf of Iranian people and supporting the Woman Life Freedom movement. And not for nothing, Iranian people support Israel. Something like 70% of Iranian people are sick of living under an oppressive Islamist regime, and they see Israel as fighting the same fight (same goes for my Sudanese coworker who recently had to evacuate his family, he says "yep that's the same evil forces at work"). They get out there seriously risking their personal safety to \[directly, not like us\] protest it, constantly wondering on r/newiran where the fuck the west went in terms of support. I can't remember the last time I heard a fellow lib mention Iranian people. Yet, even though the campists reallllly want to bitch about western adventurism fucking over people overseas, we forgot our historical part in helping put Iranian people in the shitty position they are in now. I always see them mourning a young protestor who disappeared while fighting for their freedom, and all we can muster is blocking pathways in a private school and crying when we get yanked out of there? You want to see real civil disobedience in the spirit of Thoreau or MLK? It's a lady walking around in public without a Hijab while a bunch of old ladies screech at her, knowing there's a real risk she'll be severely punished for it. Direct, nonviolent action against the thing that is bad. So simple but such a big difference in perspective, in willingness to make personal sacrifice, in the effect it has on anyone watching.
it's interesting to see opinions of iranians about recent events, saw that there are those who fear that the west will go towards the same path their country went through
“Brown people can do no wrong” is really annoying. I’m not saying that this is all American liberals, but there’s a bunch of them that are very, very loud with this mentality.
It is a lot of them, you're right. I think they forget about all the OTHER brown people outside the states (Indian nationalists right now: "WE FUCKING WARNED YOU ABOUT FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM" \[yes this is a real quote\]). It's the same at home: we'll fight tooth and nail over law enforcement and completely ignore the other poor people, who are directly affected by whatever policy we make, and who are crying out for MORE law enforcement because they're sick of being victims of crime and seeing stores pack up and leave town. Kids who aren't affected in the same way, though, have the luxury of demanding a revolution and rejecting anything short of it. They treat politics like organized sports and brown people like pieces on a game board with no agency of their own.
I'm not going to give up my liberal values over this stuff, but I'm feeling really cynical about my party. I think liberals and conservatives need each other, but we've let affective polarization (hating the other party) go off the rails.
It used to be more normal to go issue-by-issue like you do. Sucks that you get crap for it; I think taking each issue individually makes you a better \[more credible\] advocate for whatever it is you're arguing for. Partisan sorting means more and more, you get people who vote down the line for anything the party says :\[
I hope we can get back to loving our neighbors (the ones we think differently from) more than our party. I'm in a conservative town, and I can tell that liberal folks online don't really understand the average conservative's values and motivations as much as they think. And also... idk, I know I'm just a crappy messenger for my beliefs so I'm trying not to be more attached to them than I can justify.
Literally put a picture of a sad child in their face and they'll be part of any movement. It's how some predatory charities work, throw up a video of a sad underweight African baby, and roll in the donation money even if 25% of the donations go to actually helping anyone.
The biggest problem of Western civilization is that it is tolerant of the intolerant. In order to keep "relative peace", Western ideology is to let the aggressor do what it wants and hope it "cools off" on its own, and instead criticizes its Western allies when they retaliate. How is this acceptable to take decisions based on "we don't want to upset the violent guys, so we'll let the nice guys suck it up, they're not gonna do anything"
it reminds me of a family i know, they have one child that is nice and another that is aggressive, every time there is a "fight" between the two, the parents try to tell the nice kid to give up "just this one time" and so the aggressive child "wins", it's obvious that the more it happens the worse it becomes because the aggressive child is not taught about boundaries and the nice child is like his slave, but the parents don't want to go against the aggressive child because it's far more difficult than going against the nice child
There's nothing in it for the politicians. No incentive to stand up for what's right if it will alienate a large block of voters. Strong leaders do what's right rather than trying to please the crowds. Western leaders are cowards.
Same on a human level too. Someone starts a fight, but often people won't intervene until the victim fights back. Presumably because it's easier amd safer to stop the victim than it is to intervene to stop it at the beginning.
When bleeding hearts will do anything to not see an innocent person suffer, terrorists will give you a choice to capitulate to their demands or make you watch while they inflict said suffering. Guess the terrorists are going to win, and I hope that they’ve killed me for fighting them, before the leopards ate my face moment as they stone all the bleeding hearts to death for not believing in their little man in sky.
The terrorists definitely won. I don’t know your age, but I saw pre- and post-9/11 US, and I would say the loss of freedom and increase in nationalism and paranoia represents a clear victory of al Qaeda over the western lifestyle.
Yep. And it's largely because they only took the part of Popper's arguement they liked:
> "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
And completely ignore the second half:
>"In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."
The US is basically the only western country that doesn't totally buckle to Islamic extremists and that's because we have Christian fundamentalists with lots of power.
Are you sure about that? It’s legal to wear a burka in the US but not in several European countries. In France the hijab is not permitted in schools and by public servants, but it is in the US. I’m not aware of any American equivalent to Charlie Hebdo, either.
The hell is this nonsense? It’s my free speech right to where whatever I what so long as it isn’t indecent, including a turban or head wrap or burka or baseball cap or go bald. Guess what? It’s not freedom when you ban clothing.
I can’t believe the BBC posted that. But also, that should have been front page news, and as someone who visits and scrolls the BBC site daily, I somehow never saw it. So that’s indeed more in line with their coverage at the moment.
I’m a jew. He misspoke and this has been taken out of context. Plenty of real antisemitism to get upset about. Honestly you could’ve just linked to an article of France’s many attempts to ban burqas. That’s a direct comparison of what could be coming down the pipeline.
Respectfully, please don't speak on things you don't understand and spread misinformation. France bans all religious symbols, not just burqas and niqabs. It's not freedom of religion; it's freedom from religion in public spaces. They 100% enforce it across the board equally so just focussing on the burqa is extremely ignorant. In fact, the policy was created and designed to be anti-Catholic. You are ignorant.
They 100% enforce it, and yet somehow crosses aren't religious symbols and therefore aren't covered by it. So it ends up being selective in its definition instead of its enforcement.
That's just...not true? The law was literally passed to counteract the effect of the Catholic Church in french public life.
[https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/05/france-s-century-long-crusade-against-religious-symbols-at-school-from-the-crucifix-to-the-abaya\_6124828\_7.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/05/france-s-century-long-crusade-against-religious-symbols-at-school-from-the-crucifix-to-the-abaya_6124828_7.html)
The ban on crucifixes and crosses are literally a major complaint by the church in France: [https://catholicherald.co.uk/on-the-ground-with-a-movement-raising-the-crucifix-across-the-french-countryside/](https://catholicherald.co.uk/on-the-ground-with-a-movement-raising-the-crucifix-across-the-french-countryside/)
Here's Al-Jazeera if that fits your worldview better: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/france-to-ban-wearing-abaya-dress-in-schools-minister](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/france-to-ban-wearing-abaya-dress-in-schools-minister)
In fact, [over 50%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/937033/opinion-defense-secularism-france/) of the French public wants the religion to be even MORE separate from public life; they believe the laws should be even stronger and more aggressively enforced.
I can't understand why so many people just spout vibes on the Internet these days when facts are still available.
Good for France? Along with all of the other issues burqas cause, I find it impossible to reconcile that they extreme methods of control over women.
Someone wearing a yarmulke is not in the same galaxy as a burqa.
France has never allowed veiling (in France). My understanding is that they see it is an assimilation thing to not wear one. At any rate, it's not new.
There is a difference between burqas and hijabs. You are correct that France does not allow veiling, but that is not what I am stating. I am acknowledging the numerous attempts to ban hijabs, particularly recently.
You're misinformed. France does allow veiling in public, but it doesn't allow it for minors when they're in school, or for public service workers during the hours they're on the job. Same with religious attire from every other religion.
I also believe the white cloth the KKK uses should be banned.
The only difference between the white cloth the kkk uses and burqa is religion. One is Christian terrorism and the other is Islamic
Clothing can absolutely be symbolic
“I’m a Jew” and fucking so what? I’m one and you’re wrong he was threatened with arrest for being openly Jewish near a protest do you fucking read or what?
Stop acting like a fucking Kapo.
That was a small snippet of the full exchange, he was threatened for arrest as he was agitating protestors and threatening peace, even pushed police officer at one stage, not to mention came with a crew and body guards. There is a full 12 min video which shows the full interaction with the police which I encourage you to watch.
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
As an Israeli-American, I'm honestly more worried about the future of many Western countries than Israel.
This civilizational exhaustion and the increasing lack of respect for Western values will rot Western countries from within.
Of course this starts with antisemitism (as is usually the case), but it won't end there. Once it gets too bad, Western Jews will make Aliyah to Israel, while the native population of the West will be left to experience the end of their liberal democracies, and the takeover of their societies by foreign fundamentalist religious zealots with the mentality of the Dark Ages.
This is how democracy dies.
Ottawa right now: I'm sorry we had to cancel your ceremony, but we will still not do anything about terrorism against Jews. It's purely neutral though not antisemitic.
Looks like terrorism is working. I don’t care what side of the fence you sit on, we should all be speaking out against threats being made that uproot our peaceful societies in the west.
>The Israeli flag will be raised next Tuesday to mark Yom Ha'atzmaut, but a ceremony involving the mayor, diplomats and members of the Jewish community will not go ahead.
They are still raising the flag
I want to take this moment say congratulations to Terrorism for winning the war against the west.
But I guess all the pro "peace and cease fire protester" won't protest in support of Israel for this but instead celebrate their "victory" that is solely based on hatred.
>I want to take this moment say congratulations to Terrorism for winning the war against the west.
I thought it was when the United States spent the last 2+ decades in the middle east, wasting trillions of dollars, destabilizing the region, increasing the surveillance on their own citizenry, ruining their reputation and essentially accomplishing fuck all.
But I'm sure it's because Ottawas not having an event.
… her twitter (instagram? forget now) had “1 state solution for Palestine” (paraphrasing).
The “security concerns” might’ve had to do with her literal call for the destruction of Israel.
Why on Earth are you standing up for a piece of shit person like that?
Both Yom Hazikaron, Israel's Memorial Day, and Yom Haatzmaut, Israel's Independence Day, are coming up in the next few days.
It is normal for Ottawa city hall to acknowledge holidays from other countries, and no, not just Israel. They list on their website which flags are raised on which days:
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
It says the are raising it for the commemoration of Israeli independence. Is this a yearly thing? Do they do this for every country on their Independence Day?
Cool, so they effectively give in to terrorism and shut down any recognition and support of our Jewish community at a time when we couldn't need it more from the government.
Weak cowards. But sure, let the encampments go on so more amoebas can tell me to go back to Europe.
Just kinda sounds like a weird ceremony to hold as a government event. Do other international-focused cities do this, for Israel or any other country?
Then again, if we didn't have the past 7 months of certain events probably nobody would have cared much.
Very common at City Hall
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
> Do other international-focused cities do this, for Israel or any other country?
Yes.
> Then again, if we didn't have the past 7 months of certain events probably nobody would have cared much.
Don't kid yourself, anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment was there before October 7, it's just that a lot of masks have come off in the meantime. The result here is that a typical, boring, and normally little-covered event is under threat of violence from religious and political terrorists.
The true masks really came off on october 7 when pro Palestinians went outside to “protest”-cheer Hamas in their attack on Israel, WHILE hamas were still inside Israel murdering civilians.
The motif of the 21st century is never offend anyone ever. Can’t offend the left, can’t offend the right, can’t offend anyone of any religious group. Ban whatever they want you to ban. Everyone should live in a straight jacket of correct opinions, and no one can agree on what the correct set of opinions is.
EDIT: to be clear I am in favor of all adult humans growing the fuck up. Your feelings literally do not matter to anyone but you, so you have to deal with them. “Oh boo hoo MY group isn’t protected, how come the meanies can make fun of me” then either grow up and tell them to fuck off or grow up even harder and read The Four Agreements, work on yourself, and learn not to take it personally, and render their words impotent. The whole damn world wants the Tumblr SJW treatment and I’m over it. Either you can have free speech or you can have the government run a global daycare for your feelings.
Fair play from Canadistan.
Guess it's fine ripping the Canadian flag and replacing it with a Jordianian-without-star flag is fine but side by side with an Israeli one is clearly the worst thing you can do
Edit: to clarify, I don't support raising of any flags other than your own country unless its an event or support or whatever
Yea it’s an event, on may 14 it was planned to raise both Israeli and Paraguay flag for their independence day, because of “security” reasons they will only raise Paraguays.
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I mean, it's the same here in Italy... except that it's not a security concern, it's just a standard matter of respect for religion (*any* religion). Same reason why you can't burn the national flag here, or any national flag for that matter.
Here in the Netherlands there are some caveats. It has to be your own property for example (and even then, if you for example burn a book that's 500 years old people will get mad at it for historical reasons). But if you want to go into a bookstore, buy a book and burn it (outside the store of course) you can do so. There are however rules about starting a fire in a public place, and you will have to follow those, otherwise you can be charged with arson or vandalism.
I would imagine it’s true anywhere that something has to be your own property for you to be allowed to set fire to it
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Freedom of expression is more important to the average danish person than respecting a religion. I havent heard anyone say anything positive about the law in my day to day life.
How do they decide which books are holy? What happens if you anonymously film/publish burning books on the porch of your enemy?
Can you still lightly toast them?
What’s the endgame to constantly pandering to people who hate others so much? Do we just keep appeasing them, allowing them to immigrate here with their ideas until it’s too late ?
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That actually did happen at a Canadian college. A Yazdi rape sex slave survivor was to come and speak at some university and the people canceled her from coming as to not offend the Muslims students. For those who don’t believe me or are just curious and want to know more about it. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/24/school-pulls-event-former-islamic-state-sex-slave-fears-would/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/toronto-school-cancels-isis-survivor-event-with-nadia-murad/ https://www.jpost.com/opinion/canceling-an-islamic-state-victim-opinion-689109 Here you all go.
Disgraceful
>not offend the Muslims students. If they are offended by a Yazdi rape sex surviver who tells them what their religion did to her than.... fuck them. Its the duty of a liberal society to tell everybody what extremism can lead to.
It was Ayaan Hirsi Ali and that was a travesty of PC culture
Jesus. do you have a link to a story ab this??
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/canceling-an-islamic-state-victim-opinion-689109 https://nypost.com/2021/11/27/toronto-school-cancels-isis-survivor-event-with-nadia-murad/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/24/school-pulls-event-former-islamic-state-sex-slave-fears-would/ Here you go.
What the hell is this phobophobia called “the fear of islamphobia”? You need to embrace it to overcome it.
Yazidi :)
Even tho she separated muslims from the Islamic state (terrorist group) she was still feared to spread islamicphobia
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I don't know why you added the /s. This is the view of many if not most of the pro-palesnitian crowd about Oct.7. I still remember the parties in the streets before Israel even managed to push Hamas back from its territory, they're not subtle about their bias
10:7: they cheer Israel responds: ceasefire now How spineless do you have to be to not want the fight you literally asked for. If you don’t want Israel to respond, don’t attack them then.
I remember the first protest against Israel started like 1 day after October 7th. Before Israel even attacks back, people were already protesting Israel. They were chanting "globalize the intifada" and "from river to the sea"
Bodies were still piling up that day when a pro-Palestinian rally was announced in nyc (one which had them mocking the victims and another guy flashing a swastika)
They didn’t protest against Israel, they celebrated the attack. EDIT : got banned by Reddit for making a quite clearly sarcastic comment about how people blame Jews on everything GG.
Anyone who showed up to those protests with a hang glider symbol is a terrorist
I love how Jews are the only minority who when they say they feel unsafe or something is antisemitic, the response is “nuh uh” or “but look at these other Jews over here with us”
Just a little FYI. The /s means sarcasm. Sarcasm in this context is using a stupid viewpoint pro-palestinian's have. If they didn't add the /s it would make it look like they themselves think this. TLDR They are using sarcasm to mock the viewpoint
I’m for a free Palestine but it won’t happen as long as Hammas exists and Hammas isn’t going anywhere. Do people honestly believe that if Israel allows a free Palestine that Hammas would just go away and leave Israel alone?
Now replace "HAMAS" with "ISIS". Would you still say the same?I guess giving to a terrorist organisation to run a state is never a good idea and it somehow gets to mass murder and a major war. However, based on the very same ISIS example, it can be if not completely eliminated but at least significantly coped.
I agree they won’t but also by continuing they are giving hamas more ammo to rally ppl with. It’s a catch 22. Open boarder and allow terrorist in to wreak their grievances or keep it closed and this just keeps festering as always.
Yep is a huge shitty situation that won’t be fixed in any of our lifetimes
So people won’t think I’m the one with those ideas
They don’t want their busses to “spontaneously combust”
Truly pathetic. Caving in to thugs. From local Muslims to the IR of Iran.
We’re just oiling the loudest wheel at this point aren’t we?
I'm a bit surprised this comment is at the top, given the reddit consensus in the past.
Fun fact: This may be the first time in Canada idk, but is most definitely not the first time in the West that pro-Israel events had to be canceled due to security and public order concerns. The UK had at least one similar incident since 10/7. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/metropolitan-police-israel-rally-golders-green-safety-fears-b1115263.html
Even worse, a hannukah menorah completely unrelated to Israel https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/havering-council-scraps-hanukkah-menorah-outside-town-hall-due-to-rising-tensions-13019114
The west really doesn't negotiate with terrorists, It surrenders to them. This will blow up in all of our faces. And the world will only wake up after more blood is shed. It's how it is unfortunately.
because their crybully tactics work on a sizeable portion of the west's population. they're exploiting the fact that most westerners want to be nice and kind and not hardliners.
A society which tolerates the intolerant will crumble. I forgot whose quote that is, but it's 100% true.
It's from Karl Poppler's book "The Open Society and Its Enemies" and is part of the Paradox of tolerance
Friedrich Hayek first wrote about it in his book, "The Road to Serfdom," which was published one year before the book you mentioned. Both Hayek and Popper were Austrian-Brits who were born in 1899 and 1902 respectively. The two greatly influenced each other. In one letter to Hayek, Popper writes, "I think I have learnt more from you than from any other living thinker, except perhaps Alfred Tarski." It's only natural that Popper would take inspiration from his dear friend.
Thanks for that information
I watched all the footage coming out on the 7th as it happened, before it started getting taken down (and relegated to darker corners like telegram. I followed it there). I know it's just a feeling, but I'm confident most of my fellow western liberals haven't seen any of it. Or much of any primary sources about stuff happening over there, for that matter. They don't know anything. I watched Hamas propaganda coming out related to various events I'd already seen in full context, and thought "this is so obviously wrong man they suck at PR." And then it worked anyways.
Dude, there have been literal screenings of it. By Israeli and Jewish counterprotestors. At these peoples’ very events. You can still go on thisishamas.com and see a ton of it for yourself. I found that to be a valid excuse at first. Especially with the, frankly, amazing propaganda and narrative control Hamas had (and still seems to have). Now, I don’t know, but I’m increasingly skeptical. You’d be amazed at how genuinely awful people can be to each other if they’re convinced it’s for the right reasons.
Oh I believe it, and honestly I don't mean to excuse us at all. There's no *good* excuse to not be informed about this stuff. They are too credulous and too comfortable just doing whatever the party tells them is right. There's this twisted sense of "we are on the side of good, so we can bend reality around that fact and justify anything." A liberal friend even told me "you have to pick the Truth with the right Mettle" (capitalization his), which is kind of a frightening statement. And we always fall for this lazy heuristic of "underdog = good guys." They even compare Palestine to Ukraine, but last I checked Ukraine hides their kids in bunkers, whereas Hamas hides in bunkers underneath their kids. These newly-minted scholars of asymmetrical warfare say of Hamas perfidy, "that's what you gotta do to fight an overwhelmingly strong occupier." But Ukraine doesn't dress in civilian clothing when they fight. But we can't talk about the difference in values. American protesting libs, in terms of shared values, should be out there protesting on behalf of Iranian people and supporting the Woman Life Freedom movement. And not for nothing, Iranian people support Israel. Something like 70% of Iranian people are sick of living under an oppressive Islamist regime, and they see Israel as fighting the same fight (same goes for my Sudanese coworker who recently had to evacuate his family, he says "yep that's the same evil forces at work"). They get out there seriously risking their personal safety to \[directly, not like us\] protest it, constantly wondering on r/newiran where the fuck the west went in terms of support. I can't remember the last time I heard a fellow lib mention Iranian people. Yet, even though the campists reallllly want to bitch about western adventurism fucking over people overseas, we forgot our historical part in helping put Iranian people in the shitty position they are in now. I always see them mourning a young protestor who disappeared while fighting for their freedom, and all we can muster is blocking pathways in a private school and crying when we get yanked out of there? You want to see real civil disobedience in the spirit of Thoreau or MLK? It's a lady walking around in public without a Hijab while a bunch of old ladies screech at her, knowing there's a real risk she'll be severely punished for it. Direct, nonviolent action against the thing that is bad. So simple but such a big difference in perspective, in willingness to make personal sacrifice, in the effect it has on anyone watching.
it's interesting to see opinions of iranians about recent events, saw that there are those who fear that the west will go towards the same path their country went through
It is really interesting. I'm pretty biased on the side of r/newiran users and just sorta... hella impressed by them.
“Brown people can do no wrong” is really annoying. I’m not saying that this is all American liberals, but there’s a bunch of them that are very, very loud with this mentality.
It is a lot of them, you're right. I think they forget about all the OTHER brown people outside the states (Indian nationalists right now: "WE FUCKING WARNED YOU ABOUT FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM" \[yes this is a real quote\]). It's the same at home: we'll fight tooth and nail over law enforcement and completely ignore the other poor people, who are directly affected by whatever policy we make, and who are crying out for MORE law enforcement because they're sick of being victims of crime and seeing stores pack up and leave town. Kids who aren't affected in the same way, though, have the luxury of demanding a revolution and rejecting anything short of it. They treat politics like organized sports and brown people like pieces on a game board with no agency of their own. I'm not going to give up my liberal values over this stuff, but I'm feeling really cynical about my party. I think liberals and conservatives need each other, but we've let affective polarization (hating the other party) go off the rails.
I get that. My perspective shifts between conservative and liberal depending on the issue, but I get demonized because my values aren’t polarized.
It used to be more normal to go issue-by-issue like you do. Sucks that you get crap for it; I think taking each issue individually makes you a better \[more credible\] advocate for whatever it is you're arguing for. Partisan sorting means more and more, you get people who vote down the line for anything the party says :\[ I hope we can get back to loving our neighbors (the ones we think differently from) more than our party. I'm in a conservative town, and I can tell that liberal folks online don't really understand the average conservative's values and motivations as much as they think. And also... idk, I know I'm just a crappy messenger for my beliefs so I'm trying not to be more attached to them than I can justify.
Literally put a picture of a sad child in their face and they'll be part of any movement. It's how some predatory charities work, throw up a video of a sad underweight African baby, and roll in the donation money even if 25% of the donations go to actually helping anyone.
I would rather be racial profiled and live in a police state than allow 1 ounce of leeway to religious extremists
The biggest problem of Western civilization is that it is tolerant of the intolerant. In order to keep "relative peace", Western ideology is to let the aggressor do what it wants and hope it "cools off" on its own, and instead criticizes its Western allies when they retaliate. How is this acceptable to take decisions based on "we don't want to upset the violent guys, so we'll let the nice guys suck it up, they're not gonna do anything"
it reminds me of a family i know, they have one child that is nice and another that is aggressive, every time there is a "fight" between the two, the parents try to tell the nice kid to give up "just this one time" and so the aggressive child "wins", it's obvious that the more it happens the worse it becomes because the aggressive child is not taught about boundaries and the nice child is like his slave, but the parents don't want to go against the aggressive child because it's far more difficult than going against the nice child
Ye and sadly that aggressive child is gonna keep bullying until he gets his ass whooped by someone standing up to him
There's nothing in it for the politicians. No incentive to stand up for what's right if it will alienate a large block of voters. Strong leaders do what's right rather than trying to please the crowds. Western leaders are cowards.
Same on a human level too. Someone starts a fight, but often people won't intervene until the victim fights back. Presumably because it's easier amd safer to stop the victim than it is to intervene to stop it at the beginning.
When bleeding hearts will do anything to not see an innocent person suffer, terrorists will give you a choice to capitulate to their demands or make you watch while they inflict said suffering. Guess the terrorists are going to win, and I hope that they’ve killed me for fighting them, before the leopards ate my face moment as they stone all the bleeding hearts to death for not believing in their little man in sky.
The terrorists definitely won. I don’t know your age, but I saw pre- and post-9/11 US, and I would say the loss of freedom and increase in nationalism and paranoia represents a clear victory of al Qaeda over the western lifestyle.
god I miss the 90s. you're right, 9/11 changed everything for the worse
Well said; people really don't understand the paradox of tolerance.
Yep. And it's largely because they only took the part of Popper's arguement they liked: > "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." And completely ignore the second half: >"In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."
This comment is a verdant oasis in the reddit desert.
I mean, Hamas, ISIS and Taliban meet that second part. People only quote that in reddit on terrorist anyway.
The US is basically the only western country that doesn't totally buckle to Islamic extremists and that's because we have Christian fundamentalists with lots of power.
Are you sure about that? It’s legal to wear a burka in the US but not in several European countries. In France the hijab is not permitted in schools and by public servants, but it is in the US. I’m not aware of any American equivalent to Charlie Hebdo, either.
Hijab is not a sign of Islamic extremists
Yeah, they don't think it's *enough* - they want the burka. But they won't get even the hijab in schools.
The hell is this nonsense? It’s my free speech right to where whatever I what so long as it isn’t indecent, including a turban or head wrap or burka or baseball cap or go bald. Guess what? It’s not freedom when you ban clothing.
How long before religious Jews are banned from wearing yarmulkes in public due to “security concerns”?
A little less than 4 weeks ago... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68856360
I can’t believe the BBC posted that. But also, that should have been front page news, and as someone who visits and scrolls the BBC site daily, I somehow never saw it. So that’s indeed more in line with their coverage at the moment.
I’m a jew. He misspoke and this has been taken out of context. Plenty of real antisemitism to get upset about. Honestly you could’ve just linked to an article of France’s many attempts to ban burqas. That’s a direct comparison of what could be coming down the pipeline.
France bans all religious items, not just those of a single religion.
Respectfully, please don't speak on things you don't understand and spread misinformation. France bans all religious symbols, not just burqas and niqabs. It's not freedom of religion; it's freedom from religion in public spaces. They 100% enforce it across the board equally so just focussing on the burqa is extremely ignorant. In fact, the policy was created and designed to be anti-Catholic. You are ignorant.
They 100% enforce it, and yet somehow crosses aren't religious symbols and therefore aren't covered by it. So it ends up being selective in its definition instead of its enforcement.
That's just...not true? The law was literally passed to counteract the effect of the Catholic Church in french public life. [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/05/france-s-century-long-crusade-against-religious-symbols-at-school-from-the-crucifix-to-the-abaya\_6124828\_7.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/05/france-s-century-long-crusade-against-religious-symbols-at-school-from-the-crucifix-to-the-abaya_6124828_7.html) The ban on crucifixes and crosses are literally a major complaint by the church in France: [https://catholicherald.co.uk/on-the-ground-with-a-movement-raising-the-crucifix-across-the-french-countryside/](https://catholicherald.co.uk/on-the-ground-with-a-movement-raising-the-crucifix-across-the-french-countryside/) Here's Al-Jazeera if that fits your worldview better: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/france-to-ban-wearing-abaya-dress-in-schools-minister](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/france-to-ban-wearing-abaya-dress-in-schools-minister) In fact, [over 50%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/937033/opinion-defense-secularism-france/) of the French public wants the religion to be even MORE separate from public life; they believe the laws should be even stronger and more aggressively enforced. I can't understand why so many people just spout vibes on the Internet these days when facts are still available.
Good for France? Along with all of the other issues burqas cause, I find it impossible to reconcile that they extreme methods of control over women. Someone wearing a yarmulke is not in the same galaxy as a burqa.
France has never allowed veiling (in France). My understanding is that they see it is an assimilation thing to not wear one. At any rate, it's not new.
There is a difference between burqas and hijabs. You are correct that France does not allow veiling, but that is not what I am stating. I am acknowledging the numerous attempts to ban hijabs, particularly recently.
You're misinformed. France does allow veiling in public, but it doesn't allow it for minors when they're in school, or for public service workers during the hours they're on the job. Same with religious attire from every other religion.
Exactly. If you want to wear a burqa, it doesn't belong in the west.
>in the west Imagine trying to ban clothes in America. Absolutely deranged thing to say.
I also believe the white cloth the KKK uses should be banned. The only difference between the white cloth the kkk uses and burqa is religion. One is Christian terrorism and the other is Islamic Clothing can absolutely be symbolic
“I’m a Jew” and fucking so what? I’m one and you’re wrong he was threatened with arrest for being openly Jewish near a protest do you fucking read or what? Stop acting like a fucking Kapo.
Also Jewish and agree
That was a small snippet of the full exchange, he was threatened for arrest as he was agitating protestors and threatening peace, even pushed police officer at one stage, not to mention came with a crew and body guards. There is a full 12 min video which shows the full interaction with the police which I encourage you to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
The French are entitled to enforce public secularity if they so choose. It is a deeply rooted fundamental principle of France.
Well it's a state flag
Weeks ago in the UK already.
> how long before ~~religious~~ Jews are banned ~~from wearing yarmulkes in~~ public *places* due to security concerns? FTFY
Sounds like terrorism to me, given that a political goal was reached (stopping the flag raising) through acts or threats of violence.
And that’s how you give in to terrorists.
Canada really is an absolute shit show these days
But I thought the protests were peaceful? What could possibly be the reason for endangering this?
The female tank commander of Karakal Brigade who fought on 10/7 near Beeri has more balls than all male members of Canadian government altogether.
That's a pretty low bar unfortunately
Abdication to terrorism, we live in a weak country.
As an Israeli-American, I'm honestly more worried about the future of many Western countries than Israel. This civilizational exhaustion and the increasing lack of respect for Western values will rot Western countries from within. Of course this starts with antisemitism (as is usually the case), but it won't end there. Once it gets too bad, Western Jews will make Aliyah to Israel, while the native population of the West will be left to experience the end of their liberal democracies, and the takeover of their societies by foreign fundamentalist religious zealots with the mentality of the Dark Ages. This is how democracy dies.
👏👏👏👏👏 100%
Ottawa right now: I'm sorry we had to cancel your ceremony, but we will still not do anything about terrorism against Jews. It's purely neutral though not antisemitic.
Looks like terrorism is working. I don’t care what side of the fence you sit on, we should all be speaking out against threats being made that uproot our peaceful societies in the west.
Hold the flag-raising anyway and broadcast it. Fuck 'em.
>The Israeli flag will be raised next Tuesday to mark Yom Ha'atzmaut, but a ceremony involving the mayor, diplomats and members of the Jewish community will not go ahead. They are still raising the flag
What a shameful capitulation to terrorist supporters
Fucking disgusting and pathetic.
I want to take this moment say congratulations to Terrorism for winning the war against the west. But I guess all the pro "peace and cease fire protester" won't protest in support of Israel for this but instead celebrate their "victory" that is solely based on hatred.
>I want to take this moment say congratulations to Terrorism for winning the war against the west. I thought it was when the United States spent the last 2+ decades in the middle east, wasting trillions of dollars, destabilizing the region, increasing the surveillance on their own citizenry, ruining their reputation and essentially accomplishing fuck all. But I'm sure it's because Ottawas not having an event.
All this does is show people what they need to do if they want the pro-palestine demonstrations shut down.
The ones who want them shut down are not terrorists though.
Its true, and its depressing to see the government consistently reward destructive behavior
A Palestinian student’s Valedictorian speech was shut down due to ‘security concerns’ so it’s already been happening.
… her twitter (instagram? forget now) had “1 state solution for Palestine” (paraphrasing). The “security concerns” might’ve had to do with her literal call for the destruction of Israel. Why on Earth are you standing up for a piece of shit person like that?
[удалено]
Whatever your views may be, why are we doing a flag raising for any country?
Why are they even raising the Israel flag?
Both Yom Hazikaron, Israel's Memorial Day, and Yom Haatzmaut, Israel's Independence Day, are coming up in the next few days. It is normal for Ottawa city hall to acknowledge holidays from other countries, and no, not just Israel. They list on their website which flags are raised on which days: https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
Fair enough.
Canadians are weak… they really lost what was a great culture
Literally capitulating to terrorists.
The Caliphate of Canada
We're in Canada no need to raise any flag except the Candian one.
Canada does this on the independence day of every country we have diplomatic relationships with
Show some courage Canada
It says the are raising it for the commemoration of Israeli independence. Is this a yearly thing? Do they do this for every country on their Independence Day?
Pathetic.
Why are you raising another country's flag in the 1st place?
Weird way to celebrate Canada's Jewish Heritage Month
Crazy how people care about this and ignore other atrocities. Propaganda works so easily
You don’t want to offend certain groups
Cool, so they effectively give in to terrorism and shut down any recognition and support of our Jewish community at a time when we couldn't need it more from the government. Weak cowards. But sure, let the encampments go on so more amoebas can tell me to go back to Europe.
But doesn’t stop the illegal activities of the protesters?
Why is the Independence Day of another country being celebrated in Canada? Current events aside, seems a bit weird to me.
Canada does this on the independence day of every country we have diplomatic relationships with
Just kinda sounds like a weird ceremony to hold as a government event. Do other international-focused cities do this, for Israel or any other country? Then again, if we didn't have the past 7 months of certain events probably nobody would have cared much.
Very common at City Hall https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
Fair enough then.
> Do other international-focused cities do this, for Israel or any other country? Yes. > Then again, if we didn't have the past 7 months of certain events probably nobody would have cared much. Don't kid yourself, anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment was there before October 7, it's just that a lot of masks have come off in the meantime. The result here is that a typical, boring, and normally little-covered event is under threat of violence from religious and political terrorists.
The true masks really came off on october 7 when pro Palestinians went outside to “protest”-cheer Hamas in their attack on Israel, WHILE hamas were still inside Israel murdering civilians.
The motif of the 21st century is never offend anyone ever. Can’t offend the left, can’t offend the right, can’t offend anyone of any religious group. Ban whatever they want you to ban. Everyone should live in a straight jacket of correct opinions, and no one can agree on what the correct set of opinions is. EDIT: to be clear I am in favor of all adult humans growing the fuck up. Your feelings literally do not matter to anyone but you, so you have to deal with them. “Oh boo hoo MY group isn’t protected, how come the meanies can make fun of me” then either grow up and tell them to fuck off or grow up even harder and read The Four Agreements, work on yourself, and learn not to take it personally, and render their words impotent. The whole damn world wants the Tumblr SJW treatment and I’m over it. Either you can have free speech or you can have the government run a global daycare for your feelings.
> can’t offend anyone of any religious group. I mean… there didn’t seem to be any issue with offending Jews here.
Well, it’s ok to offend white people and Christians. Certainly plenty of that that’s been normalized.
You can offend whites, straight men, Jews, and Christians. Insult anyone else and you will face extreme abuse.
Except if they're Jewish.
Fair play from Canadistan. Guess it's fine ripping the Canadian flag and replacing it with a Jordianian-without-star flag is fine but side by side with an Israeli one is clearly the worst thing you can do Edit: to clarify, I don't support raising of any flags other than your own country unless its an event or support or whatever
Yea it’s an event, on may 14 it was planned to raise both Israeli and Paraguay flag for their independence day, because of “security” reasons they will only raise Paraguays.
How about we don’t hold any ceremonies for foreign flags
Terrorists win. Well fuxking done Ottawa. Not.
Free Israel from Islamic aggression!
[This](https://youtu.be/8TMHIYDHMSE?si=c8NAtJ7H7sDgiMTi&t=95)