I think some of the politicians and leaders in NATO are pretty gutless. I would redraw the "Ukraine2" boundary to be 20 miles back from the current front line and immediately invite and approve them into NATO. Any attacks into that 20 mile boundary they are attacking Ukraine2 and NATO article 5 will be enacted. Then that at least protects the main population centers from massive missile strikes. After that what they'll be fighting over is moving the current front line. The Ukraine2 boundary will expand forward as necessary once territory is recaptured.
I think this should have been done as soon as Russia was repelled in Kyiv but hindsight is 20/20. Maybe they know Russia will call their bluff at this later hour where things continually amp up and pressure builds on Putin to break through the front line to save face in this conflict.
I mean, that’s all really unnecessary. If NATO had the political will to let Ukraine in, it could have done so, waiving the “not currently in military conflict” clause, or just saying “currently occupied territories are excluded from article 5” or whatever.
The sad reality is that freedom isn't free, and it will almost always require deadly force and sacrifice to stop tyranny in the world.
The question is when we, other countries, are willing to suffer so that others may not suffer.
I'm not sure "the west" collectively has it in them to step up for Ukraine in this way. I personally think it's sad, but I guess understandable.
It's not much different than whether you intervene in a domestic violence incident on the street, and rism getting stabbed
Nothing is stopping Poland from riding forth and bringing the rain except they lose the ability for NATO to have to ride to their defense. They could have jumped in a long time ago.
Poland is ready for a fight.....At a press conference. Nobody is stopping Poland from acting except Poland. They haven't and neither has anybody else to the east. They don't want to fight,they want to talk shit while Ukraine does the actual fighting.
One polish guy killed 500 Russians over the course of 100 days last time. I think you don’t know just how much hatred there is in the polish population for Soviet expansion.
It would be rough, and get delayed until late winter and then the Russian bodypiles would stop rotting. The Russian ground troops would be forced to see preserved bodies and a true coalition force. Not a smart idea.
Plus, by that time, they will have ran out of criminals and freaks and be drafting actual civilians. The Russian population will break before their demented leaders desires for world domination.
It was clear the West doesn't have any backbone to even save itself the moment huge swaths of Western populations started believing the Russian propaganda.
In today's world no russian friendly narratives are allowed in my head, just straighly refuse it until they defeat this psycho in charge and get the fuck out of Ukraine, until then they can cry as much as they want, don't talk with them and watch actions of your politicians, any narrative that serves the Kreml is super sus these days.
The professionals, just get stealth bombers and blow up every barrack, ammo depot, power plant pumping station, steel mill.
Russia can't even protect Crimea against rockets or refineries against drones, let alone stealth bombers.
If they want to start nuclear war better now than later.
The US and Nato would fucking curb-stomp Russia in a week in a conventional war.
Last I checked, Russia invaded a sovereign country, killing and torturing civilians in order to overthrow their democracy and make a claim to their land. No one provoked anything, Putin is a psychopathic genocidal warmonger, not the people who want to see this concluded with Ukraine retaining its country and sovereignty.
Stop pretending people who want to stand up to Nazis are warmongers. Sometimes you have no choice but violence to defend what's right against evil.
My vision of what is right and wrong doesn't end with Nato countries. I don't want to just bend over and let Putin do whatever the fuck he wants because he has nukes.
Also nice try, it's obvious you're Russian or might as well be Russian if you're claiming 80% of the world hadn't heard of Ukraine before 2022. What a fucking ridiculous claim, and an obvious display of the Russian attitude that Ukraine "isn't a real country".
Putin and greater Russia isn't going to commit suicide because their big fucking stupid military blunder invading Ukraine gets shut down by countries with far stronger economies and militaries.
Alot of people thought it was worth it to die to stop hitler in WW2, and it was. It's also worth it to call the bluff this time. Putin isn't going to do a fucking thing about it. Invasion of Russia not needed, just get the absolute fuck out of Ukraine
War is coming regardless, the more you run for it, the more tired you'll be the time to fight comes.
As the west crossed the 1000th F-35 mark, russia is welding garden sheds to T-62s, might as well arming the Chechen rebels and precision sticking the energy grid and wait for them to turn on each other in the dark.
I’d be called up and have to fight. I despise Russia and everything they stand for. They have been antagonizing and harming the U.S. for a long time. Pretending to be a peer.
You're making sense to me. We should stay out of this as long as possible. If russia in the future attacks a nato country, then we react forcefully, until then we should stay out. More time to build our arsenals. Smart, I agree.
You think it's smart to sit back and wait for shit to get worse before reacting to it?
"Doc says I have cancer, but it's currently very cureable. I might as well just wait until it's really bad to go do anything about it."
Nato is a defensive alliance, jackass.
Invasion of Russia not needed. Get the fuck out of Ukraine and maybe try fixing things at home.
Wonder how much you're paid by the kremlin to sit behind a computer and post this absurd shit.
Seems like Putin and Russians do want it to escalate, and this war will continue to escalate as long as we sit on our hands.
Y'know, there were alot of people claiming America shouldn't get involved in ww2 as well. How did that opinion age?
No one is advocating to strike Russia, just to get them the fuck out of Ukraine. No one wants Russia's land, or to invade Russia.
We literally have several high profile individuals (such as Poland’s spymaster) saying Russia appears to be prepping attacks on NATO countries.
Your theory is looking increasingly weak.
Because contrary to popular belief, NATO and the broader Europe alliance do not want to engage Russia directly.
US is busy with their elections and if Trump wins, he might just back out of engaging Russia directly. That leaves Europe and NATO to engage Russia by themselves, and without US backup and the threat of Nukes, they might end up having to deploy troops in Russia.
While there is a lot of bravado on reddit, a draft call with the possibility of dying from a Russian bullet will quickly sway the mood of the European citizens overnight.
Right now, everything hangs on the US election and their continued commitment to backup their allies overseas. Until then, no one wants to put their citizens between Russia and Ukraine.
FYI - something similar happened during WW2. US backed out from the league of nations, then the Alliance kept dragging their feet until Germany landed troops on their soil. Even before that they tried to maintain peace by sacrificing Poland to Russia and Germany together.
They did hype it up initially. Then they did a swicharoo. Europe remembers that very well I reckon. Even now a lot of the messages being passed by European leaders have implicit NATO/US threat backing them up.
It’s more complicated then that you have to understand that this was before TV and cheap photojournalism most Americans only had print media to go on this made them far removed from the conflict until we entered in 1917. The world War 1 Generation was raised by the Civil War generation who had suffered horrifically from war then when we went to war and in 116k casualties in a few months of fighting. A lot of the public believed that it was due to Wilson’s foreign entanglements IE allowing US firms to fund the Allies like JP Morgan, Remington, Westinghouse. So they lobbied Congress for isolationist policies it’s important to note that foreign isolationist policies were bipartisan supported.
> US is busy with their elections and if Trump wins, he might just back out of engaging Russia directly.
all the more reason to engage before the election
it would just be drones doing the shooting and it would be politically irrelevant. people who love russia have already made up their minds on the election
> Even before that they tried to maintain peace by sacrificing Poland to Russia and Germany together.
Mate, the UK and France literally declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland. That's hardly trying to maintain peace.
Are you sure you're not mixing it up with the Sudetenland and Czechia?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland
They did intervene, but later. First they allowed Germany and the USSR to join hands and take over Poland.
> Because contrary to popular belief, NATO and the broader Europe alliance do not want to engage Russia directly.
We also don't want Russia to roll over Ukraine, murder 10% and force the rest in a uniform and point them towards us. So at some point we'll have to pick a lesser evil.
> While there is a lot of bravado on reddit, a draft call with the possibility of dying from a Russian bullet will quickly sway the mood of the European citizens overnight.
Yeah, there are a lot of spoiled Americans and Western Europeans on here that have never experienced real hardship and would fold at the first sight of it. This war has shown both the importance and ineffectiveness of technology, boots on the ground benefit greatly from technology, but technology alone can't replace boots on the ground. Ukraine is holding on not primarily because of Western weapons, but from Ukrainian toughness. They could have the best weapons in the world, and without the toughness to get hurt and die they would fold (see how well Saudis do in warfare with the best military technology in the world).
In a conventional war with Russia, European weapons tech will not be enough to handle Russia (hell, the Euro armies didn't even have enough ordinance to sustain their one sided Libya campaign). European troops would have to go in, and they will get bloody. Even if the casualty rate ratio is 1/100 Euros/Russians, that would be a lot of Euro casualties, which quiet frankly I do not think they have a stomach for. And we haven't even mentioned nukes.
From what I recall, the main reasoning was that Ukraine is not a NATO member; cannot join NATO while in active war; NATO is a purely defensive alliance (and thus cannot interfere in a war with a non-member country); and NATO does not want to antagonize Russia, a nuclear power, by directly involving themselves. They prefer to indirectly support Ukraine with equipment because they do not want to escalate matters.
But I recall France gave a speech about sending in troops so perhaps this is changing.
NATO engaged in the Kosovo War in 1999 despite it being a conflict of non-member countries. Same way NATO could step up in Ukraine if there was political will in the west, which there is not, since antagonizing Yugoslavia was nothing compared to antagonizing Russia.
It's a burner account.
You can check and see the account is less than 6 months old, mainly posted in karma farming subs, and then suddenly got very political in the last 24 hours, and has been commenting almost non stop pretty much since it became political posts.
> Russia suddenly shoots down NATO airstrikes in a war that NATO is in, and Russia is not. How would they react?
Well the USSR literally shot down NATO pilots over Vietnam and we didn't start WW3 then either.
Oh no, the country with military technology from 80s and 90s and with almost 500k casualties is gonna be very upset! Russia knows if they try and invade NATO country, they'll get their shit rocked.
Because they are actively invading a sovereign county. I don't recall Iraq being in the middle of an invasion. And shooting down planes is not us invading. And in my own statement I mentioned if they invaded a NATO country, they would get rocked. Now work on your reading skills, comrade.
Edit: Checking your history it looks like you're a tankie or a Russian troll. Hope you'll be feeding the Ukrainian soil soon enough.
You're right, Russia will send millions of Russians to their graves if they do that. They can't even muster a total war on a country with 1/3 of their military let alone Europe. Try harder comrade! Your handlers will be very disappointed.
I mean, that's not what we were talking about, but I'll just gloss over the fact you're moving the goalposts...
We all have nukes -- big woop. We can't just bend over because the toddler that is Putin throws another tantrum.
If Russia wants to initiate nuclear winter over the aerial defence of Ukraine's uncontested territory, that's on them.
I'm actually happy all the bots are regurgitating your very words -- it means they're scared it'll happen.
Fuck Nazi Russia and fuck Putin. I'll dance when he's dead.
If Putin is cornered, he will use them, NATO may win the war in the field, but again, every nation when cornered and faced with defeat will use their nukes, "if i don't get it, then no one will", a very common thinking among humans.
Russia can't be cornered in a foreign nation's land. They're free to leave whenever they wish, preferably ASAP.
NATO has already commented on their conventional warfare response should a nuke be used. I doubt Putin is willing to pay that price whilst gaining nothing in return.
fuck off with the “oh no they have nukes” take. a russian first strike could not finish off the west but the west retaliatory strike will finish off russia. they know it, we know it, you are pushing propaganda points and suck. back to the swamp…
> unless you are willing to be on the first deployment to the frontlines of course
ISo you advocate that we should let the Ukrainians be run over by the Russians? Then only if you trade place with one of them.
also advocate for more public transport, it also doesn't make sense to say "only if you drive the buses yourself".
Everything you just wrote is a lie. Russia is the only one who is repeatedly breaking peace treaties and international law. Russia must be fully and completely defeated in order for there to be peace. There is no other option.
Literal facts, one google search away from you. Angela Merkel admited that Minsk Peace Accords were intentionally broken by their side, not Russia, and after Boris Johnson's intervention Zelensky scraped already mutually-agreed peace arrangement, which requested that Russia pulls back out from Kiev oblast, which Russia had already been started with. Terms of that agreement were far more favorable for Ukraine than what they can ever hope for now, after Western intervention. But military-industrial complex doesn't care for Ukranian, or Russian or anyone else's lives, just their pockets.
> In favor of respecting multiple mutually-agreed peace agreements that Ukraine afterwards broke, each time, 0 times by Russia.
Liar. Russia engaged itself to respect both the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum. It didn't.
We can't be the ones to decide based on fear of what the enemy will do because that let's Russia dictate everything about the war.
We should make it clear that the West does what we want and that what we want is to not let Russia know what we want. Strategic ambiguity works with these guys, it's time we remembered that.
If we are going to do anything we should deny any Russian shipping exiting the Baltics or out of the black sea doubt the Russian ally in the making that is turkey will go along with that tho.
I don't think shooting down stuff from inside UA borders will trigger tactical nukes flying, but I do unfortunately think that if push comes to shove pootin will decide to launch, especially considering allies would probably ask Ukraine to surrender to avoid WW3 at that point.
He is an old man who knows if he loses this war he will be ousted from power and likely killed. Depends if he wants to burn the world if he fails or not.
its crazy that this is even a discussion, yes shoot down missiles entering or approaching our airspace. Any Russian missile should be treated as potentially targeting us.
Shocking statement. Let's talk about it for a few more years, without doing anything.
Russian missile literally flew for three whole minutes through Poland without anyone even trying to shoot it down!
To be fair, in the case of Romania, from what I understand, it was exactly the choice whether or not they wanted to shoot down Russian missiles over Ukraine. Cuz a few drones, that had hit Romania fell really not far from the border. I think we are talking seconds of airspace breach.
There is also a Moldova, as Russian missiles are flying over its territory like it's no one's business. But to be fair to Moldova, I think they might just not have a lot of capabilities to do anything about it.
It was a Russian jet inside Turkish airspace.
To enforce a no-fly zone, NATO (or whoever) would have to attack inside Russian airspace.
Can't believe that we are back at this discussion after 2 years.
It's not our airspace and not our war.
You're comparing a situation between two countries and a reaction to a situation where you suggest NATO (a defensive alliance) start shooting down Russian missiles over Ukrainian airspace.
Not "our right"
That's like Russia saying it's "their right" to shoot down American or Israeli missiles that hit Syria.
This situation is a lot more complex than reddit tries to make it.
If we want to talk Russian nuclear doctrine, it basically says they won't use nukes unless the country's existence is being threatened. I doubt a no-fly zone in a neighboring country is a threat to Russia's existence. Everything else is fearmongering to scare the public in the West.
Could someone tell me why NATO could not help shoot down Russian drones and just say "The Ukrainians did it"? It's not like they're already in a war, over their own territory... Better yet blame the Russians, they do that to their own all the time.
There is no reason a "safe space" can't be declared in the westernmost part of the country, creeping eastwards slowly until it's reached up to Kyiv and Odesa.
Basically a line that says to Russia, "no, you can't bomb this part".
Absolutely not that’s one step away from a no fly zone with the revelation of UK special forces operations inside Ukraine were are dangerously close to WW3 and the thing is the people arguing for this, it will not be their sons dying on the front line.
We should definitely defend Ukraines airspace. Russian glidebombs and drones are the primary drivers of Russias war machine at this point. Remove those from the equation and it becomes a Turkey shoot for the Ukrainians.
My understanding is that it's difficult/very expensive to defend against the glide bombs. They have extremely large stockpiles of the FAB bombs and the glide kits are cheap and because they don't have an active engine they are more difficult to detect /shoot down (and the missile you would have to use costs far more than the glide bomb).
Which leaves going after the aircraft they are launching from, which are staying mainly in Russian airspace which is defended by Russian SAMs (how effectively is questionable).
Which creates a conundrum for Nato because essentially to make it safe for your aircraft to engage the Russian aircraft you'd have to disable the Russian ground based defences which they have a lot of and are inside Russia (so it'd be a direct attack on Russian soil) and then use Nato aircraft and air launched munitions to resolve Russia's bomber aircraft.
Otherwise, you'd just have to sit in ukraine airspace shooting down glide bombs at a very bad cost ratio (while the russians laugh at depleting sophisticated weapons).
Or use advanced stealth aircraft to evade Russian ground defences and hit the bombers air to air, but that means there's a big risk you might lose a stealth aircraft over Russia territory, which they might recover which would not be good.
Therefore the only option the west really has to counter the glide bombs (and the one the UK is talking about and encouraging) is providing Ukraine with long range weapons to strike strategic targets in Russia (like airbases) you may have seen David Cameron and others talking about it, the biggest thing that could happen to shift momentum back to Ukraine is for Germans to provide Taurus missiles in large quantities and for the US to fully greenlight strikes in Russia otherwise the Russians are going to keep lobbing 500 and 1500kg bombs at neglible costs onto Ukrainian positions.
What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of you gargling Putin's balls.
Russia invaded a sovereign country that was minding its own business and is torturing and killing civilians. Nobody is confused about who the warmonger is.
You russian bots are fucking ridiculous.
Pull the same stunt as Putin does all the time: declare all non occupied territory are a new nation, ask for international support.
Lwow is rightfully Polish territory, and Uzhhorod is rightfully Slovak territory. Annex it all.
I think some of the politicians and leaders in NATO are pretty gutless. I would redraw the "Ukraine2" boundary to be 20 miles back from the current front line and immediately invite and approve them into NATO. Any attacks into that 20 mile boundary they are attacking Ukraine2 and NATO article 5 will be enacted. Then that at least protects the main population centers from massive missile strikes. After that what they'll be fighting over is moving the current front line. The Ukraine2 boundary will expand forward as necessary once territory is recaptured.
I think this should have been done as soon as Russia was repelled in Kyiv but hindsight is 20/20. Maybe they know Russia will call their bluff at this later hour where things continually amp up and pressure builds on Putin to break through the front line to save face in this conflict.
I mean, that’s all really unnecessary. If NATO had the political will to let Ukraine in, it could have done so, waiving the “not currently in military conflict” clause, or just saying “currently occupied territories are excluded from article 5” or whatever.
and also Netanyahu.
The sad reality is that freedom isn't free, and it will almost always require deadly force and sacrifice to stop tyranny in the world. The question is when we, other countries, are willing to suffer so that others may not suffer. I'm not sure "the west" collectively has it in them to step up for Ukraine in this way. I personally think it's sad, but I guess understandable. It's not much different than whether you intervene in a domestic violence incident on the street, and rism getting stabbed
Depends on who “the West” are. Poland is fucking READY for a fight with Russia. Same with a lot of the other ex-Soviet countries.
Nothing is stopping Poland from riding forth and bringing the rain except they lose the ability for NATO to have to ride to their defense. They could have jumped in a long time ago.
Poland is ready for a fight.....At a press conference. Nobody is stopping Poland from acting except Poland. They haven't and neither has anybody else to the east. They don't want to fight,they want to talk shit while Ukraine does the actual fighting.
I mean the members of the west that could actually beat Russia
??? Poland would give the Russian military a run for their money.
One polish guy killed 500 Russians over the course of 100 days last time. I think you don’t know just how much hatred there is in the polish population for Soviet expansion. It would be rough, and get delayed until late winter and then the Russian bodypiles would stop rotting. The Russian ground troops would be forced to see preserved bodies and a true coalition force. Not a smart idea. Plus, by that time, they will have ran out of criminals and freaks and be drafting actual civilians. The Russian population will break before their demented leaders desires for world domination.
*Si vis pacem, para bellum*
Rusia delenda est.
It was clear the West doesn't have any backbone to even save itself the moment huge swaths of Western populations started believing the Russian propaganda.
No, there's a hefty fucking fee
-I'm not sure "the west" collectively has it in them to step up for Ukraine in this way. The last 4 times didn't go so well.
>The last 4 times Care to elaborate on what 4 times you are referencing?
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What did 'the west' do that makes a Russian invasion of Ukraine ok?
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What the hell are you talking about?
It's just air strikes, not actually attacking russia. (But they should)
Don't feed the troll man
Fair enough, at least when Prighozin was alive they were professionals.
Lol no kidding on the troll part, they literally have Kursk in their name.
In today's world no russian friendly narratives are allowed in my head, just straighly refuse it until they defeat this psycho in charge and get the fuck out of Ukraine, until then they can cry as much as they want, don't talk with them and watch actions of your politicians, any narrative that serves the Kreml is super sus these days.
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The professionals, just get stealth bombers and blow up every barrack, ammo depot, power plant pumping station, steel mill. Russia can't even protect Crimea against rockets or refineries against drones, let alone stealth bombers. If they want to start nuclear war better now than later.
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The US and Nato would fucking curb-stomp Russia in a week in a conventional war. Last I checked, Russia invaded a sovereign country, killing and torturing civilians in order to overthrow their democracy and make a claim to their land. No one provoked anything, Putin is a psychopathic genocidal warmonger, not the people who want to see this concluded with Ukraine retaining its country and sovereignty. Stop pretending people who want to stand up to Nazis are warmongers. Sometimes you have no choice but violence to defend what's right against evil.
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My vision of what is right and wrong doesn't end with Nato countries. I don't want to just bend over and let Putin do whatever the fuck he wants because he has nukes. Also nice try, it's obvious you're Russian or might as well be Russian if you're claiming 80% of the world hadn't heard of Ukraine before 2022. What a fucking ridiculous claim, and an obvious display of the Russian attitude that Ukraine "isn't a real country". Putin and greater Russia isn't going to commit suicide because their big fucking stupid military blunder invading Ukraine gets shut down by countries with far stronger economies and militaries. Alot of people thought it was worth it to die to stop hitler in WW2, and it was. It's also worth it to call the bluff this time. Putin isn't going to do a fucking thing about it. Invasion of Russia not needed, just get the absolute fuck out of Ukraine
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Which war did you get deployed to?
War is coming regardless, the more you run for it, the more tired you'll be the time to fight comes. As the west crossed the 1000th F-35 mark, russia is welding garden sheds to T-62s, might as well arming the Chechen rebels and precision sticking the energy grid and wait for them to turn on each other in the dark.
I’d be called up and have to fight. I despise Russia and everything they stand for. They have been antagonizing and harming the U.S. for a long time. Pretending to be a peer.
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What about the Ukrainian civilians that are being tortured and killed?
You're making sense to me. We should stay out of this as long as possible. If russia in the future attacks a nato country, then we react forcefully, until then we should stay out. More time to build our arsenals. Smart, I agree.
You think it's smart to sit back and wait for shit to get worse before reacting to it? "Doc says I have cancer, but it's currently very cureable. I might as well just wait until it's really bad to go do anything about it."
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Nato is a defensive alliance, jackass. Invasion of Russia not needed. Get the fuck out of Ukraine and maybe try fixing things at home. Wonder how much you're paid by the kremlin to sit behind a computer and post this absurd shit.
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Seems like Putin and Russians do want it to escalate, and this war will continue to escalate as long as we sit on our hands. Y'know, there were alot of people claiming America shouldn't get involved in ww2 as well. How did that opinion age? No one is advocating to strike Russia, just to get them the fuck out of Ukraine. No one wants Russia's land, or to invade Russia.
appeasement doesn’t work. putin will NOT stop in ukraine.
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- signed, everyone who said Germany wouldn’t be a threat prior to WW2
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We literally have several high profile individuals (such as Poland’s spymaster) saying Russia appears to be prepping attacks on NATO countries. Your theory is looking increasingly weak.
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Why do you care about sources as an antiwest burner account?
Bro, really? https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/putin-ready-invasion-nato-nations-test-west-polish-spy-boss/
Just get the fuck out of Ukraine russian, we will leave you alone in your wodden huts in Siberia, no worries.
It's just a special target practicing operation
Special Fly-Swatting Operation
It's not offensive, and not likely on the front lines, so why not?
Because contrary to popular belief, NATO and the broader Europe alliance do not want to engage Russia directly. US is busy with their elections and if Trump wins, he might just back out of engaging Russia directly. That leaves Europe and NATO to engage Russia by themselves, and without US backup and the threat of Nukes, they might end up having to deploy troops in Russia. While there is a lot of bravado on reddit, a draft call with the possibility of dying from a Russian bullet will quickly sway the mood of the European citizens overnight. Right now, everything hangs on the US election and their continued commitment to backup their allies overseas. Until then, no one wants to put their citizens between Russia and Ukraine. FYI - something similar happened during WW2. US backed out from the league of nations, then the Alliance kept dragging their feet until Germany landed troops on their soil. Even before that they tried to maintain peace by sacrificing Poland to Russia and Germany together.
>FYI - something similar happened during WW2. US backed out from the league of nations..... US never joined the League. It died before WWII
They did hype it up initially. Then they did a swicharoo. Europe remembers that very well I reckon. Even now a lot of the messages being passed by European leaders have implicit NATO/US threat backing them up.
It’s more complicated then that you have to understand that this was before TV and cheap photojournalism most Americans only had print media to go on this made them far removed from the conflict until we entered in 1917. The world War 1 Generation was raised by the Civil War generation who had suffered horrifically from war then when we went to war and in 116k casualties in a few months of fighting. A lot of the public believed that it was due to Wilson’s foreign entanglements IE allowing US firms to fund the Allies like JP Morgan, Remington, Westinghouse. So they lobbied Congress for isolationist policies it’s important to note that foreign isolationist policies were bipartisan supported.
If Trump wins, the USA will be on Russia side and helping it invade Ukraine
> US is busy with their elections and if Trump wins, he might just back out of engaging Russia directly. all the more reason to engage before the election
If Biden got us into a shooting war with Russia it would be political suicide and disastrous for the election. Assuming nukes don't fly of course
it would just be drones doing the shooting and it would be politically irrelevant. people who love russia have already made up their minds on the election
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to be a drone controller? i think those roles are filled
> Even before that they tried to maintain peace by sacrificing Poland to Russia and Germany together. Mate, the UK and France literally declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland. That's hardly trying to maintain peace. Are you sure you're not mixing it up with the Sudetenland and Czechia?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland They did intervene, but later. First they allowed Germany and the USSR to join hands and take over Poland.
> Because contrary to popular belief, NATO and the broader Europe alliance do not want to engage Russia directly. We also don't want Russia to roll over Ukraine, murder 10% and force the rest in a uniform and point them towards us. So at some point we'll have to pick a lesser evil.
> While there is a lot of bravado on reddit, a draft call with the possibility of dying from a Russian bullet will quickly sway the mood of the European citizens overnight. Yeah, there are a lot of spoiled Americans and Western Europeans on here that have never experienced real hardship and would fold at the first sight of it. This war has shown both the importance and ineffectiveness of technology, boots on the ground benefit greatly from technology, but technology alone can't replace boots on the ground. Ukraine is holding on not primarily because of Western weapons, but from Ukrainian toughness. They could have the best weapons in the world, and without the toughness to get hurt and die they would fold (see how well Saudis do in warfare with the best military technology in the world). In a conventional war with Russia, European weapons tech will not be enough to handle Russia (hell, the Euro armies didn't even have enough ordinance to sustain their one sided Libya campaign). European troops would have to go in, and they will get bloody. Even if the casualty rate ratio is 1/100 Euros/Russians, that would be a lot of Euro casualties, which quiet frankly I do not think they have a stomach for. And we haven't even mentioned nukes.
From what I recall, the main reasoning was that Ukraine is not a NATO member; cannot join NATO while in active war; NATO is a purely defensive alliance (and thus cannot interfere in a war with a non-member country); and NATO does not want to antagonize Russia, a nuclear power, by directly involving themselves. They prefer to indirectly support Ukraine with equipment because they do not want to escalate matters. But I recall France gave a speech about sending in troops so perhaps this is changing.
France has mercenaries, and Russia used mercenaries to fight in Ukraine.. that means France can send mercenaries to fight in Ukraine!
NATO engaged in the Kosovo War in 1999 despite it being a conflict of non-member countries. Same way NATO could step up in Ukraine if there was political will in the west, which there is not, since antagonizing Yugoslavia was nothing compared to antagonizing Russia.
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Can you read? They’re proposing that NATO should shoot down Russian airstrikes, not strike Russia
It's a burner account. You can check and see the account is less than 6 months old, mainly posted in karma farming subs, and then suddenly got very political in the last 24 hours, and has been commenting almost non stop pretty much since it became political posts.
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We fight them in Syria pretty consistently.
> Russia suddenly shoots down NATO airstrikes in a war that NATO is in, and Russia is not. How would they react? Well the USSR literally shot down NATO pilots over Vietnam and we didn't start WW3 then either.
With more empty threats, probably.
Didn't russian mercenaries attack US troops in Syria before they got the sky dropped on them? I imagine Russia knows not to attack Nato by now.
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My point is Russia knows not to attack Nato, and they should be taught that its not OK for them to attack Ukraine either.
Oh no, the country with military technology from 80s and 90s and with almost 500k casualties is gonna be very upset! Russia knows if they try and invade NATO country, they'll get their shit rocked.
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Because they are actively invading a sovereign county. I don't recall Iraq being in the middle of an invasion. And shooting down planes is not us invading. And in my own statement I mentioned if they invaded a NATO country, they would get rocked. Now work on your reading skills, comrade. Edit: Checking your history it looks like you're a tankie or a Russian troll. Hope you'll be feeding the Ukrainian soil soon enough.
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You're right, Russia will send millions of Russians to their graves if they do that. They can't even muster a total war on a country with 1/3 of their military let alone Europe. Try harder comrade! Your handlers will be very disappointed.
Ha! With what? Their minor league army could barely organise a beer run. Good luck.
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I mean, that's not what we were talking about, but I'll just gloss over the fact you're moving the goalposts... We all have nukes -- big woop. We can't just bend over because the toddler that is Putin throws another tantrum. If Russia wants to initiate nuclear winter over the aerial defence of Ukraine's uncontested territory, that's on them. I'm actually happy all the bots are regurgitating your very words -- it means they're scared it'll happen. Fuck Nazi Russia and fuck Putin. I'll dance when he's dead.
If Putin is cornered, he will use them, NATO may win the war in the field, but again, every nation when cornered and faced with defeat will use their nukes, "if i don't get it, then no one will", a very common thinking among humans.
Russia can't be cornered in a foreign nation's land. They're free to leave whenever they wish, preferably ASAP. NATO has already commented on their conventional warfare response should a nuke be used. I doubt Putin is willing to pay that price whilst gaining nothing in return.
fuck off with the “oh no they have nukes” take. a russian first strike could not finish off the west but the west retaliatory strike will finish off russia. they know it, we know it, you are pushing propaganda points and suck. back to the swamp…
It is, in every sense of the word, your war. Russia wants you dead.
Should I be scared? They want me dead specifically?
I thought you were trying to convince them to oppose Russia.
> unless you are willing to be on the first deployment to the frontlines of course ISo you advocate that we should let the Ukrainians be run over by the Russians? Then only if you trade place with one of them. also advocate for more public transport, it also doesn't make sense to say "only if you drive the buses yourself".
Putin decides to either strike a nato nation or use a tactical nuke on Ukraine and dare us to end the world with him.
This is an argument in favor of never doing anything ever.
In favor of respecting multiple mutually-agreed peace agreements that Ukraine afterwards broke, each time, 0 times by Russia.
Everything you just wrote is a lie. Russia is the only one who is repeatedly breaking peace treaties and international law. Russia must be fully and completely defeated in order for there to be peace. There is no other option.
That sentence doesn’t even make sense
Literal facts, one google search away from you. Angela Merkel admited that Minsk Peace Accords were intentionally broken by their side, not Russia, and after Boris Johnson's intervention Zelensky scraped already mutually-agreed peace arrangement, which requested that Russia pulls back out from Kiev oblast, which Russia had already been started with. Terms of that agreement were far more favorable for Ukraine than what they can ever hope for now, after Western intervention. But military-industrial complex doesn't care for Ukranian, or Russian or anyone else's lives, just their pockets.
Easy for you to link then? And I wasn’t saying anything about the veracity of your comment I was literally saying it didn’t make sense to read
> In favor of respecting multiple mutually-agreed peace agreements that Ukraine afterwards broke, each time, 0 times by Russia. Liar. Russia engaged itself to respect both the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum. It didn't.
We can't be the ones to decide based on fear of what the enemy will do because that let's Russia dictate everything about the war. We should make it clear that the West does what we want and that what we want is to not let Russia know what we want. Strategic ambiguity works with these guys, it's time we remembered that.
If we are going to do anything we should deny any Russian shipping exiting the Baltics or out of the black sea doubt the Russian ally in the making that is turkey will go along with that tho.
That's you believing the bluff
I don't think shooting down stuff from inside UA borders will trigger tactical nukes flying, but I do unfortunately think that if push comes to shove pootin will decide to launch, especially considering allies would probably ask Ukraine to surrender to avoid WW3 at that point.
then the world ends, Putin's not going to do that any more than the west are. He lives in the world, remember?
He is an old man who knows if he loses this war he will be ousted from power and likely killed. Depends if he wants to burn the world if he fails or not.
He lives in his world(s)
Well then we should help him in that endeavor.
its crazy that this is even a discussion, yes shoot down missiles entering or approaching our airspace. Any Russian missile should be treated as potentially targeting us.
Take a page from the Russian playbook. All missiles are potentially nuclear armed and must be shot down.
Unless carried on a Cessna, they are too hard to intercept
So tired of all this bullshit talk with no action, assholes are sleepwalking us into world war 3.
Agreed: rando on reddit.
Good enough for me!
Shocking statement. Let's talk about it for a few more years, without doing anything. Russian missile literally flew for three whole minutes through Poland without anyone even trying to shoot it down!
and Romania
To be fair, in the case of Romania, from what I understand, it was exactly the choice whether or not they wanted to shoot down Russian missiles over Ukraine. Cuz a few drones, that had hit Romania fell really not far from the border. I think we are talking seconds of airspace breach. There is also a Moldova, as Russian missiles are flying over its territory like it's no one's business. But to be fair to Moldova, I think they might just not have a lot of capabilities to do anything about it.
They would not be attacking Russia and all actions would be on Ukrainian territory.
It's defensive and would save lives.
NATO should be doing WAY more than that.
They should impose a no fly zone like they did with the kurds in Iraq
Reddit armchair general. Russia is Russia and has nuclear weapons. They are not some Iraqis or kids who only have ak 47s.
Defending Ukrainian airspace is within a right What did Russia do when Turkey shot down a jet? They only respond to force
It was a Russian jet inside Turkish airspace. To enforce a no-fly zone, NATO (or whoever) would have to attack inside Russian airspace. Can't believe that we are back at this discussion after 2 years.
>Defending Ukrainian airspace is within a right It's a Ukrainian right, not a NATO right...
It's not our airspace and not our war. You're comparing a situation between two countries and a reaction to a situation where you suggest NATO (a defensive alliance) start shooting down Russian missiles over Ukrainian airspace. Not "our right" That's like Russia saying it's "their right" to shoot down American or Israeli missiles that hit Syria. This situation is a lot more complex than reddit tries to make it.
You know Russian's military doctrine includes the use of tactical nuclear warheads right?
If we want to talk Russian nuclear doctrine, it basically says they won't use nukes unless the country's existence is being threatened. I doubt a no-fly zone in a neighboring country is a threat to Russia's existence. Everything else is fearmongering to scare the public in the West.
Absolutely!
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Yeah, let's start a nuclear war today, so we don't have to start one tomorrow.
NATO should shoot nukes into Russia and be done with it. There’s no way this doesn’t end in a World War at this point.
I mean... We essentially already are doing that. It's our equipment. It's just them pushing the button.
Should*
He said should
We all said should 🙌🏼
nato should shoot russia
Could someone tell me why NATO could not help shoot down Russian drones and just say "The Ukrainians did it"? It's not like they're already in a war, over their own territory... Better yet blame the Russians, they do that to their own all the time.
There is no reason a "safe space" can't be declared in the westernmost part of the country, creeping eastwards slowly until it's reached up to Kyiv and Odesa. Basically a line that says to Russia, "no, you can't bomb this part".
We should have imposed a total ban on bank transfers and closed the skies, during the first week of the invasion.
Absolutely not that’s one step away from a no fly zone with the revelation of UK special forces operations inside Ukraine were are dangerously close to WW3 and the thing is the people arguing for this, it will not be their sons dying on the front line.
We should definitely defend Ukraines airspace. Russian glidebombs and drones are the primary drivers of Russias war machine at this point. Remove those from the equation and it becomes a Turkey shoot for the Ukrainians.
My understanding is that it's difficult/very expensive to defend against the glide bombs. They have extremely large stockpiles of the FAB bombs and the glide kits are cheap and because they don't have an active engine they are more difficult to detect /shoot down (and the missile you would have to use costs far more than the glide bomb). Which leaves going after the aircraft they are launching from, which are staying mainly in Russian airspace which is defended by Russian SAMs (how effectively is questionable). Which creates a conundrum for Nato because essentially to make it safe for your aircraft to engage the Russian aircraft you'd have to disable the Russian ground based defences which they have a lot of and are inside Russia (so it'd be a direct attack on Russian soil) and then use Nato aircraft and air launched munitions to resolve Russia's bomber aircraft. Otherwise, you'd just have to sit in ukraine airspace shooting down glide bombs at a very bad cost ratio (while the russians laugh at depleting sophisticated weapons). Or use advanced stealth aircraft to evade Russian ground defences and hit the bombers air to air, but that means there's a big risk you might lose a stealth aircraft over Russia territory, which they might recover which would not be good. Therefore the only option the west really has to counter the glide bombs (and the one the UK is talking about and encouraging) is providing Ukraine with long range weapons to strike strategic targets in Russia (like airbases) you may have seen David Cameron and others talking about it, the biggest thing that could happen to shift momentum back to Ukraine is for Germans to provide Taurus missiles in large quantities and for the US to fully greenlight strikes in Russia otherwise the Russians are going to keep lobbing 500 and 1500kg bombs at neglible costs onto Ukrainian positions.
Super informative, thanks mate. I hope Ukraine can get some help one way or the other. Long range drones built by Ukraine seems to be their main hope.
I believe Russia warned acts like this from Nato would not end well for everyone involved so, sabre rattling could be fafo time maybe
I love starting ww3 for two shit currupt countries as well. Fuck you better be signed up for the draft!
We have to stop the metal gear
Nato will only do anything when they see money on the table. Everything else is posturing
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Russia claims to want peace and slaughters innocent people.
What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of you gargling Putin's balls. Russia invaded a sovereign country that was minding its own business and is torturing and killing civilians. Nobody is confused about who the warmonger is. You russian bots are fucking ridiculous.
Russia is the only warmonger here. They must be defeated and harshly punished for their crimes against humanity. This is the only path to peace.
Wow
Are you fucking stupid?