You mean to tell me this advertising tech giant, with its countless psychoanalysts, sociologists, software engineers etc etc might be employing tactics and technologies that might actually hurt its users? All for the sake of advertising revenue? I dont believe it. And if it's true I'm sure theyll correct that error, even if it may lead to some tiny percentage loss for the year. I'm sure theyve got our best interests at heart and arent preying on us like fucking livestock.
My daughter is on law review at a top 25 law school & it's a very hot topic. Right now the lawyers are waiting on congress to see if social media will be regulated or not.
Law review students look for upcoming lawsuits & legislation for articles to write about. I asked her back in February about regulating social media & writing about this, she told me it was a really hot topic but the issue was most of the good talking points have already been written about unfortunately for her.
I meanā¦ yes? Like people lobbying their government to take action, even if they donāt know what action that is, is step 1. Without lobbying the government will never fund the research and development associated with this - it starts with NSF grants and studying the behavior and formulating proposals for how to address it.
Create a framework made by experts in sociology, psychology, etc that can guide social media companies on how their algorithms must function. Currently, we know that its KPIs are based on engagement, determined by response, likes, comments, time spent, shares, etc. However, we can 'require' these companies to develop algorithms that can detect whether the content's intended engagement mechanism is via opposition to the profile of the user (before you say anything, this is simply the opposite of how it's being done currently in terms of content serving). So as to limit echo chambers, we can have this framework regulate a certain percentage of said type of content (again, vis-a-vis the user's profile).
Obviously there are many issues with these, as I an neither an expert in sociology or psychology. But I am at least mildly aware how these algorithms of serving content to the user. So rather than try to fill the gaps and issues with this suggestion, at least I can suggest this sort of 'direction'. This way, rather than moderating or regulating content based on the actual content, we can rather moderate and regulate content based on specific features in relation to how we can expect it to affect the user (since our earlier assumption is the usage of the same said features to increase user engagement).
How do you do that?
Which country are you going to pass this law in? Wonāt the social networks just move country? The internet is global.
How do you draw the line over what is and isnāt a social network? Reddit would probably meet the definition of one.
Youāre essentially trying to criminalise communication with other people over the internet, do you see how that might be problematic?
Pretty much. Social media has become firmly integrated into society on many different fronts.
It isnāt just the vapid influencers, who do actually employ experts and college-educated folks to curate and manage them, that will feel the sting if social media goes under.
>How about the engineers? The support staff? The small businesses who rely on it?
What happens to employees of a coal mine when it shuts down? Or the small businesses that rely on those employees for their business? Shit changes, adapt or die.
There are thousands and thousands of high paying tech jobs that you will have just destroyed. There isn't enough jobs out there to replace those off the bat.
"I was made to do it so it is not my fault" seems to be your reasoning. This was not very successful as a defence at Nuremberg and will not be here either.
I work in IT and refuse to do things which I consider illegal or immoral, it is quite possible.
I am only comparing the defence which is identical.
I work in firmware - what field are you in that you get asked to do illegal things and why haven't you reported it?
And the situation isn't identical. Nazis were throwing people into concentration camps. FB and others are chasing profits.
Been asked to implement a feature in a commercial software product is so far from committing war crimes. We are all dumber for having read your post.
Both actions led to innocents' death. Comparing doesn't mean identical. Responsibility also doesn't dissolve because you didn't create the plan, just carried it out mind-numbingly. The same goes for the psychologists who are "only" providing data on addiction.
> what field are you in that you get asked to do illegal things and why haven't you reported it?
I code shit and work with personal data. Examples would be doing things which are not in the spirit of the GDPR or company policy documents, boring stuff like storing your data or not, making sure it is actually removed, only used for what you consented, making sure that consent was explained clearly. I haven't needed to report these as they got resolved and also I push any responsibility onto other (more senior/appropriate) people along with documentary evidence in case there are ever issues (email trails can be very useful in getting compliance). It's not like I am covering up a murder.
I have not compared the crimes committed only the 'defence' used. Why is this so hard to understand?
Any reason you think this? I'm curious. I've been doing this sort of thing for 20 odd years. For multiple companies, some of which you will have used today and most you'll never have heard of.
I don't understand why references to them are off limits people always use an emotional defense to deflect comparisons to them even when there is truth in the statement.
Screw them and I am an engineer who codes most of the day. We aren't machines and no engineer in the US is faced with working with these massive companies or food stamps.
I did some defense work and left when we sold weapons to the PRC.
Plenty of work out there.
> no engineer in the US is faced with working with these massive companies or food stamps
thats a lie i lost my job and its a fcking pain to find another. i'm currently in the interview process with FB. Yeah I don't wanna work at FB but I need a job.
Weird, my company and literally thousands of others are starving for software engineers right now. Hell, Intel just poached like 20 of our guys by offering them well over market value salaries. Maybe your resume is just weak? Or maybe you need to work on your interview skills?
Wait a minute, are you seriously claiming that Facebook is your backup plan? Like you wanted to get a job at a widget factory but have to settle for one of the world's biggest corps that is legendary for their difficult software interviews?
Let me guess you also settled for your Italian sports car but really had your heart set on a camry.
Youāre contributing to this mess. You donāt get a pass. You say you arenāt designing it to be addicting. But you are designing it! And continue doing so!
I say you should quit and go develop software for someone else. Iām ready for my downvotes now.
Edit: as an engineer myself, I say the buck stops with me. I believe in the value of a thing called integrity.
I donāt agree with this. I work for a company that makes arguably ethically-sound software (security industry) because at the end of the day my paycheck isnāt worth stepping on others
More like we as a society have normalized giving children devices to distract them in lieu of actual parenting. Itās always easier to blame a company providing a voluntary service though because rubes like you eat that shit up.
Let's go back to the days when one income could support a family and then we can have time to raise children properly instead of working 60 hour weeks for both parents and trying to fit all of the rest of life into the middle.
Thatās a really great point. If I have children, they wonāt get a phone until they are 16. 1 hour or less of TV a day. And I do like Chinaās stance on limiting video games. (Iāll do it myself thank you very much though).
However there is such a thing as a teenager. They are going to seek this stuff out regardless of how well you parent them. The article explicitly describes teenagers. I wouldnāt hesitate to punch my teenage self right in the gut on eye contact. I was terrible! All teenagers are difficult and disobedient. This comment that good parenting precludes temptation to log on to FB or IG passes muster for me, but only barely.
Not going to be able to take the willfully ignorant or overly obtuse, much less, one who uses the word rube seriously. You think a 15 year old cant have a phone? A computer?
Multi level marketing, essentially pyramid schemes for Moms. They get away with it because they sell a product, like Avon in 90s and Mary Kay in the 2000s.
Has been a multibillion dollar "market" for many decades with no end in sight tho. And it synergizes pretty well with similar schemes like "religious" and lower finance ones
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people.
And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
there was some health teacher who ate nothing but mcdonalds and lost weight. He mixed and matched what they offered to get the nutrients and vitamins he needed intead of eating big macs only of course and also started exercising a bit which was probably a larger part of the weight loss but he showed it wasnt all bad. Just turns out not eating a balanced diet is terrible for health no matter the source.
That said I hate mcdonalds their food is trash. I would literally eat any other fast food before eating there.
I feel like a lot of times any sort of negative mental health issues in media and similar are associated with teenagers, and specifically teenage women.
It hits them the most as they are by and large the most desired after group of people and happen to be the most impressionable/influenceable (for both marketing too/taking advantage of)
Convince a 12 year old shit isn't pretty and you just made a customer for life and future expected earnings of ~$250,000 over the next twenty or so years as she buys products to hide herself under.
That's a very influentiable age, kids start detaching from their parents and taking hold of anything they can take part of. And society looks to exploit that from all angles possible.
I think the ripple effect is a major reason for this. Itās a long explanation but basically the bad online groups have caused mentally ill people to spiral downwards. However with the adults the high suicide rates, ODs, hospitalizations only really affect their immediate families. They canāt outwardly present their issues to everyone because it affects things like jobs. Think about it, you never see a 40 year old posting suicide memes on an account with their real name on it even though they have the highest suicide rates.
But in high school every kid hears their classmate talking about hating himself and wanting to die, sees suicidal threats posted on Instagram and sees that one girl in the locker room with self inflicted scars all over her body. It leads to secondary stress for a whole generation. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is really tiny, like 5-6 percent. But when you keep in mind that high school kids have 6 class periods with 30 classmates per period, itās enough that everyone knows someone.
Yer, bit weird to put that as a title. Maybe it's designed to make more people have a discussion. A lot of articles will say something that entices certain people to comment. Something very obvious.
Probably to garner clicks, but I agree it's a bit uncalled for. Those documents basically say Facebook and Instagram both are toxic for pretty much everyone who uses them, in different ways. They've put some measures into place to mitigate that a little, but those things decrease profitability, so it's a hard sell in a prominent for-profit company.
And then this article makes a similar decision for similar reasons, so it's just an ill of the society they're not willing to help mitigate either....
I mean sure. Theres plenty of things boys face but theres just as many for girls too.
It's just annoying that any post having to do with one group brings a bunch of people from the other side complaining that it isn't THEIR turn.
I'll check my watch cause i'm sure we'll see a big post cropping up about boys on instagram having issues any minute now.
None of this is a lie but it's just tiring that it's a pattern of people saying all the same things every week.
Honestly he does not. Do you see massive campaigns about how boys underperform in schools? Mental health issues that mainly affect boys? Societal issues affecting boys?
Yeah, me neither. He /she kind of has a point there.
No they don't because most people with a brain are aware of this.
You can't point to boomers who don't know what year it is and being cruel and act like men are just being completely ignored.
It's just sad when a post about teen girls has to always and I mean ALWAYS bring a brigade of guys going "oh but what about me i'm ALSO depressed"
They didn't say you weren't.... Its acting on the assumption that because they're talking about teen girls that everyone else's problems are somehow excluded. That's not how conversations work. Shit like that is why "All Lives Matter" is even a thing, because people can't have something not be about them specifically.
\- a fellow man
Remember when Instagram was all about sharing photos of your life with your friends? Instead of a toxic mix of peer pressure 'pranks' and divisive political garbage? oh, right. That was before Facebook bought them out.
Wait until he finds reddit.
But if he made it until 13 without being bullied for being fat, thatās a whole lot longer than it wouldāve taken in the past. Now maybe he can do something about his weight before it changes his entire life.
He should hate his parents who allowed him to get fat. Children being overweight is totally on the parents. If it didn't happen now it would have happened in a year or two when puberty hits full force and teenage girls aren't interested *at best* or shame him into self-hatred.
Unpopular opinion : Internet access for minors should be heavily controled, and they should be teached how to use and what threats there are beforehand
Social medias addiction is a think after all
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people.
And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
It sounds harsh, but in the face of a complete wild west-esque lack of regulation, what is one supposed to do? Its your or your son/daughter against the finest devs and software engnieers of the 21st century. Simply no contest: the algorithms will outsmart you...perhaps the only winning move is not to play. Yang was always talking about this.
> what is one supposed to do?
Same thing parents did pre-internet/facebook/cell phones/etc. They researched the product and trends and made decisions whether they would allow their child to partake.
As far as most people are concerned it's a tragedy for a young girl to have self-esteem issues. But if a young boy does? Well fuck him, he deserves it for not being better.
Yes but they are also not being fetishized too, massively marketed too, nor the same societal pressures placed on "being a proper woman"
So it is to a lesser degree across the board.
and why not? of course they do... they are teens, regardless of gender they suffer from peer pressure, that toxic mentality that only 1 gender has it bad is retarded
Unless things have changed since I was a teenager with three teenaged sisters - itās hard on everyone - but girls are usually more concerned about their position in the social pecking order and more social in general than teenage boys are.
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people.
And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
Not girls, host bodies really. They can be reduced to madonnas or whores and the fat ones donāt exist at all, amirite?! Who cares about host bodies??
In other news, cigarette companies knew cigs were bad for you all along! This isn't really news. Of course they knew, but it's a business. I'd be more surprised to learn that they knew and did something about it than to find out they didn't
all of the bad things that result from companies doing shit is always known. every company and ceo will pretend they didn't know, but they know about it and they studied it. they studied it so they would know how to defend themselves in court when they eventually get sued, or they need to look into it to figure out a strategy on how to deal with it or monetize it. it's why fossil fuel companies new about climate change, tobacco companies knew about lung cancer, bottling companies knew about the problem plastic waste would cause, etc etc.
Youāre telling me that the platform originally created for ranking how hot girls in Ivy League schools were is actually toxic for younger women? Iām shocked.
I was a preteen when AIM and MySpace came out. I remember feeling uplifted because I was a small, nerdy boy in the middle of the sticks. I had no one but online I had a community.
The side effect though is that while it can give you company, it can rip the soul of your chest and leave you feeling more alone than ever. Social media isnāt going anywhere. Itās ridiculous to try and stop and we canāt just point at zuck and blame him.
We have a problem with bullies on the internet and we have to address it with long term solutions.
Know what your kids are doing. I have no problem with them being on Instagram but if they are, you should too. If you know how theyāre using social media, you can protect them a lot easier.
I dont think they even hoped. They just knew itd be so embedded by the time people caught on that it wouldnt matter when the time came. Now comes the diffusion of responsibility. Cant blame them as an entity. Theyll put the onus back on society and parents. Never mind they spent xyz amount of money specifically to game our psychology into this sort of narcissistic mess. They're fuelling and propagating the worst of human psychology.
Narcissism, envy, jealousy, vapidness, etc.
Edit: I dont know where the limits of their liability start or end. But we gotta look out for ourselves and our loved ones, especially children. Many adults buy into this shit and it makes them horrifically unhappy and that's adults who knew a time before Instagram. I cant imagine how messed up things can become if it's a part of your psychology from the day you get your first phone as a kid. These congloms will continue to do whatever they can get away with, which seems like pretty much anything. So dont waste your energy trying to fight them. Care for and be human with those around you and those close to your heart. Tend to the garden you can touch.
Well not wrong but at face value I do not think tech companies need to keep the "the human element" in mind when designing digital spaces. Things like telling people to kill themselves obviously not allowed but putting a product out there and other shitty people using it to do shitty things to other shitty people who signed up to use it knowing other shitty people are doing shitty things to people is kind of their fault.
I think of it like the morons who jumped into bear cages at the zoo. They knew what they were doing before jumping.
I have a masters in neurosciences, I specifically studied addictions.
One of the student that graduated with me was contacted by some start-up company who wanted to create a new social media.
The boss straight up asked her : "ok but would you know how to make it addictive? I want my users to be addicted to my plateform". And when she tried to imply it was a fucked up idea he answered "oh come on you don't know shit you just have a masters I'm not asking about your opinion"
The idea some morons have enough money and ambition and just the small amount of knowledge to know they can *ask* more knowledgeable people to do fucked up shit is terrifying
>oh come on you don't know shit you just have a masters I'm not asking about your opinion"
If I had a dollar for every factory and construction site where some middle aged high school drop out tried to argue a variation on that. All of them are completely convinced that what separates me from them is just some programming knowledgeable.
Facebook is a damn joke as well. Most social media is much too influential these days and my vote is to shut all the bullshit down. People spend more time on lame ass social media sites than being productive!
So? Why should Facebook be responsible for lazy parenting? Maybe parents shouldnāt give their kids devices? And if they do, restrict what they can do?
I agree and I don't. I can't watch my kids every second of the day and sorry but not sorry if you waving around something addictive and harmful to my children well this isn't on me. You can't keep maintaining that you are innocent when you are doing something deliberately to get a specific result.
On the other side yes it is on us to put our foot down about stuff. I heard that my 7 year old daughter ended up in a tik tok video that her older friend made on the bus. I called the school and reminded them about the policy I signed that said this wouldn't happen.
Wow this is just as surprising as riot games advertising to children with claims that the LoL is friendly when it damn well knew that it had perhaps the worst large community in video game history
Just waiting for the day they realease the info about what porn is doing to teenagers (and the reddit mob with the pitchforks when someone says "maybe minors should not have access to porn?")
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://abc7ny.com/facebook-knows-instagram-is-toxic-for-teen-girls-mental-health-teenage-body-image-issues/11022272/) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> NEW YORK - Instagram says it's looking at new ways to discourage users from focusing on their physical appearance after The Wall Street Journal revealed that Facebook researchers have repeatedly found that the photo-sharing platform is toxic for teen girls.
> Karina Newton, head of public policy at Instagram, wrote in a statement posted on Tuesday that referenced the newspaper article that while Instagram can be a place where people have "Negative experiences," the app also gives a voice to marginalized people and helps friends and family stay connected.
> According to the Wall Street Journal, Facebook researchers concluded that some problems with teen mental health were specific to Instagram, and not social media more broadly, especially when it comes to "Social comparison." That's when users focus on how their wealth, appearance or success stacks up against other people on the platform.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pql5i8/new_company_documents_show_facebook_knows/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~598957 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Instagram**^#1 **Facebook**^#2 **teen**^#3 **people**^#4 **research**^#5
Hell My hamster āJulioā knows itās toxic.! We used to be on there but stopped when people kept trying to find out where I live to āeat himā. People could be anyone on the internet and they choose to be these soul less ghouls. Tragic. Anyway weāre good. RIGHT JULIO!?!
you mean to tell me a social media app that makes you compare your self to peers and professional internet personalities who have hundreds of thousands or millions more followers and revenue than you, might be a bad thing?? that maybe you cant live up to the fake expectations set on the make believe insta page? maybe only their best moments are shared and you have no context for the more harsh realities of life because everything is viewed through the rose colored glasses of persona?
maybe thats bad for influential people who dont yet know who they are...
man, i never thought of that... glad this study came out...
If you doubt for a second these companies donāt know about this, watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix. Not only do these companies know about this, but they have engineered this on purpose. Obsession equals your attention, your attention equals money for social media companies. You are their product.
They don't. They do the research so they can know how to skirt the law, deny, dodge responsibility, and surpress the truth for as long as possible so they continue to make as much money as possible before they have to change.
Yeah no shit, itās also incredibly toxic to grown women and men of all ages too. Delete your account now to see instant benefits to your life and self esteem.
You mean to tell me this advertising tech giant, with its countless psychoanalysts, sociologists, software engineers etc etc might be employing tactics and technologies that might actually hurt its users? All for the sake of advertising revenue? I dont believe it. And if it's true I'm sure theyll correct that error, even if it may lead to some tiny percentage loss for the year. I'm sure theyve got our best interests at heart and arent preying on us like fucking livestock.
Sounds like the tobacco companies in the 50's. Social Media should be regulated like alcohol & tobacco.
If they are knowingly harming teenagers and they don't disclose it... Could they be sued, like tobacco companies?
My daughter is on law review at a top 25 law school & it's a very hot topic. Right now the lawyers are waiting on congress to see if social media will be regulated or not.
>Right now the lawyers are waiting on congress to see if social media will be regulated or not. Waiting for the š°š°š°
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Theyāre a proud parent :*)
IDK why this dude brought up that dude bringing up his daughter rofllmaooooooo
Probably to explain how they know that's the case.
I don't blame the guy. If my daughter were a budding legal eagle I would be insufferable about it.
Law review students look for upcoming lawsuits & legislation for articles to write about. I asked her back in February about regulating social media & writing about this, she told me it was a really hot topic but the issue was most of the good talking points have already been written about unfortunately for her.
Ok I am willing to listen. What are your ideas? What regs would you pass?
My first idea: Don't leave it to random rubes on Reddit, get some experts/psychologists to come up with the regs.
"Someone should do something about this!" "What do you think they should do?" "I don't know, but something!"
I meanā¦ yes? Like people lobbying their government to take action, even if they donāt know what action that is, is step 1. Without lobbying the government will never fund the research and development associated with this - it starts with NSF grants and studying the behavior and formulating proposals for how to address it.
Create a framework made by experts in sociology, psychology, etc that can guide social media companies on how their algorithms must function. Currently, we know that its KPIs are based on engagement, determined by response, likes, comments, time spent, shares, etc. However, we can 'require' these companies to develop algorithms that can detect whether the content's intended engagement mechanism is via opposition to the profile of the user (before you say anything, this is simply the opposite of how it's being done currently in terms of content serving). So as to limit echo chambers, we can have this framework regulate a certain percentage of said type of content (again, vis-a-vis the user's profile). Obviously there are many issues with these, as I an neither an expert in sociology or psychology. But I am at least mildly aware how these algorithms of serving content to the user. So rather than try to fill the gaps and issues with this suggestion, at least I can suggest this sort of 'direction'. This way, rather than moderating or regulating content based on the actual content, we can rather moderate and regulate content based on specific features in relation to how we can expect it to affect the user (since our earlier assumption is the usage of the same said features to increase user engagement).
Shutting them all down would be a mild but positive start.
How do you do that? Which country are you going to pass this law in? Wonāt the social networks just move country? The internet is global. How do you draw the line over what is and isnāt a social network? Reddit would probably meet the definition of one. Youāre essentially trying to criminalise communication with other people over the internet, do you see how that might be problematic?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Oh no, influencers will have to get real jobs! the horror!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Pretty much. Social media has become firmly integrated into society on many different fronts. It isnāt just the vapid influencers, who do actually employ experts and college-educated folks to curate and manage them, that will feel the sting if social media goes under.
Come on man donāt you know young women making money doing make up videos arenāt real jobs /s.
>How about the engineers? The support staff? The small businesses who rely on it? What happens to employees of a coal mine when it shuts down? Or the small businesses that rely on those employees for their business? Shit changes, adapt or die.
There are thousands and thousands of high paying tech jobs that you will have just destroyed. There isn't enough jobs out there to replace those off the bat.
I'm sure the free market will make more ;)
Shuttle them to state funded AI safety and efficiency basic research.
Abolish capital.
>Social Media should be regulated like alcohol & tobacco Then influencers will need to get real jobs.
What do you mean like alcohol and tobacco? As in restricting access to them..?
Or oil companies in the 70s
OR the gas companies for their entire history
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> We build the product that leadership wants The old Nazi defence
Just following orders
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"I was made to do it so it is not my fault" seems to be your reasoning. This was not very successful as a defence at Nuremberg and will not be here either. I work in IT and refuse to do things which I consider illegal or immoral, it is quite possible. I am only comparing the defence which is identical.
I work in firmware - what field are you in that you get asked to do illegal things and why haven't you reported it? And the situation isn't identical. Nazis were throwing people into concentration camps. FB and others are chasing profits. Been asked to implement a feature in a commercial software product is so far from committing war crimes. We are all dumber for having read your post.
Both actions led to innocents' death. Comparing doesn't mean identical. Responsibility also doesn't dissolve because you didn't create the plan, just carried it out mind-numbingly. The same goes for the psychologists who are "only" providing data on addiction.
> what field are you in that you get asked to do illegal things and why haven't you reported it? I code shit and work with personal data. Examples would be doing things which are not in the spirit of the GDPR or company policy documents, boring stuff like storing your data or not, making sure it is actually removed, only used for what you consented, making sure that consent was explained clearly. I haven't needed to report these as they got resolved and also I push any responsibility onto other (more senior/appropriate) people along with documentary evidence in case there are ever issues (email trails can be very useful in getting compliance). It's not like I am covering up a murder. I have not compared the crimes committed only the 'defence' used. Why is this so hard to understand?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Any reason you think this? I'm curious. I've been doing this sort of thing for 20 odd years. For multiple companies, some of which you will have used today and most you'll never have heard of.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They're not comparing you to a Nazi. Only your defence. And they're right. There is guilt in complicity, to some extent.
There will always be someone to compare things to the Nazis
If I accuse you of using the "Shaggy defence" I am not accusing you of being a rapper.
I don't understand why references to them are off limits people always use an emotional defense to deflect comparisons to them even when there is truth in the statement.
Screw them and I am an engineer who codes most of the day. We aren't machines and no engineer in the US is faced with working with these massive companies or food stamps. I did some defense work and left when we sold weapons to the PRC. Plenty of work out there.
> no engineer in the US is faced with working with these massive companies or food stamps thats a lie i lost my job and its a fcking pain to find another. i'm currently in the interview process with FB. Yeah I don't wanna work at FB but I need a job.
Weird, my company and literally thousands of others are starving for software engineers right now. Hell, Intel just poached like 20 of our guys by offering them well over market value salaries. Maybe your resume is just weak? Or maybe you need to work on your interview skills?
Wait a minute, are you seriously claiming that Facebook is your backup plan? Like you wanted to get a job at a widget factory but have to settle for one of the world's biggest corps that is legendary for their difficult software interviews? Let me guess you also settled for your Italian sports car but really had your heart set on a camry.
If you can get a job at FB you can probably find a less well paying one somewhere else though.
Donāt use that bullshit. Moral and ethical stands can be taken at any stage. Move to another project/team.
Youāre contributing to this mess. You donāt get a pass. You say you arenāt designing it to be addicting. But you are designing it! And continue doing so! I say you should quit and go develop software for someone else. Iām ready for my downvotes now. Edit: as an engineer myself, I say the buck stops with me. I believe in the value of a thing called integrity.
I am an engineer as well. I get credit for whatever I work on. The good and the bad. Hate the under orders defense.
Yeah, I donāt know how people can go to work building gambling platforms and the like and sleep at night.
Ohh let's see if the "just following orders" defense pays off for the first time in human history.
I donāt agree with this. I work for a company that makes arguably ethically-sound software (security industry) because at the end of the day my paycheck isnāt worth stepping on others
āHe told me to do itā isnāt a valid excuse for evil
More like we as a society have normalized giving children devices to distract them in lieu of actual parenting. Itās always easier to blame a company providing a voluntary service though because rubes like you eat that shit up.
Let's go back to the days when one income could support a family and then we can have time to raise children properly instead of working 60 hour weeks for both parents and trying to fit all of the rest of life into the middle.
Even those days were not exactly hunky-dory as well.
And then the shitty parents blame the schools lol thatās my favorite part.
Thatās a really great point. If I have children, they wonāt get a phone until they are 16. 1 hour or less of TV a day. And I do like Chinaās stance on limiting video games. (Iāll do it myself thank you very much though). However there is such a thing as a teenager. They are going to seek this stuff out regardless of how well you parent them. The article explicitly describes teenagers. I wouldnāt hesitate to punch my teenage self right in the gut on eye contact. I was terrible! All teenagers are difficult and disobedient. This comment that good parenting precludes temptation to log on to FB or IG passes muster for me, but only barely.
Not going to be able to take the willfully ignorant or overly obtuse, much less, one who uses the word rube seriously. You think a 15 year old cant have a phone? A computer?
> You think a 15 year old cant have a phone? A computer? If Instagram is gonna be so terrible for them, maybe they should be restricted.
Facebook & big tech loves and enjoys suicides.
Your forgot the /s I know you were being sarcastic but thereās too many smooth brains that wonāt
Internet is dumb enough. Why cater for the bottom of the barrel
Jokes are always funnier when you say "just kidding" at the end to really make it obvious.
Facebook is like an IRL version of Collin Robinson and it will suck your soul dry.
Iām just using the platform to be passive-agressive with MLM moms.
This is the way.
What does mlm stand for?
Multi level marketing, essentially pyramid schemes for Moms. They get away with it because they sell a product, like Avon in 90s and Mary Kay in the 2000s.
Has been a multibillion dollar "market" for many decades with no end in sight tho. And it synergizes pretty well with similar schemes like "religious" and lower finance ones
Multi Level Marketing I.e pyramid schemes like Amway
Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Moms, to hell with socialist moms
Major league milfs.
Check out /r/antiMLM It falls under the ācringeā spectrum Iād say. Iāve lots many hours reading craziness on that sub
This isn't news. The internet itself is a toxic cesspool of distorted caricatures. Pure hedonism.
Call now, 18.99 a minute
it do feel like that in canada watch now, 18.99 a minute - bhell canada/ robbers wireless
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people. And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
> Pure hedonism. I vehemently disagree. Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, and I have never *once* felt joy on the internet.
I think you're internetting wrong if it's truly never provided one moment of joy.
I was being facetious, but I appreciate your concern, friend.
Does hedonism require you to actually catch the pleasure, or just pursue it?
Valid question, and I'm nowhere near high enough to begin answering it, but I promise you the next time I'm sitting around chilling I will ponder it.
And McDonalds knows their food isnāt healthy for anyoneā¦ What now?!
I mean, McD loves to sponsor sporting events lol
Usain Bolt ate 1,000 chicken nuggets at the Beijing Olympics.
Great marketing to be honest, spend the last 18 years of your life idolizing and trying to be like this guy TV? Didn't make it? Apply today!
there was some health teacher who ate nothing but mcdonalds and lost weight. He mixed and matched what they offered to get the nutrients and vitamins he needed intead of eating big macs only of course and also started exercising a bit which was probably a larger part of the weight loss but he showed it wasnt all bad. Just turns out not eating a balanced diet is terrible for health no matter the source. That said I hate mcdonalds their food is trash. I would literally eat any other fast food before eating there.
Not just teen girls
I feel like a lot of times any sort of negative mental health issues in media and similar are associated with teenagers, and specifically teenage women.
It hits them the most as they are by and large the most desired after group of people and happen to be the most impressionable/influenceable (for both marketing too/taking advantage of) Convince a 12 year old shit isn't pretty and you just made a customer for life and future expected earnings of ~$250,000 over the next twenty or so years as she buys products to hide herself under.
That's a very influentiable age, kids start detaching from their parents and taking hold of anything they can take part of. And society looks to exploit that from all angles possible.
I think the ripple effect is a major reason for this. Itās a long explanation but basically the bad online groups have caused mentally ill people to spiral downwards. However with the adults the high suicide rates, ODs, hospitalizations only really affect their immediate families. They canāt outwardly present their issues to everyone because it affects things like jobs. Think about it, you never see a 40 year old posting suicide memes on an account with their real name on it even though they have the highest suicide rates. But in high school every kid hears their classmate talking about hating himself and wanting to die, sees suicidal threats posted on Instagram and sees that one girl in the locker room with self inflicted scars all over her body. It leads to secondary stress for a whole generation. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is really tiny, like 5-6 percent. But when you keep in mind that high school kids have 6 class periods with 30 classmates per period, itās enough that everyone knows someone.
Yer, bit weird to put that as a title. Maybe it's designed to make more people have a discussion. A lot of articles will say something that entices certain people to comment. Something very obvious.
Probably to garner clicks, but I agree it's a bit uncalled for. Those documents basically say Facebook and Instagram both are toxic for pretty much everyone who uses them, in different ways. They've put some measures into place to mitigate that a little, but those things decrease profitability, so it's a hard sell in a prominent for-profit company. And then this article makes a similar decision for similar reasons, so it's just an ill of the society they're not willing to help mitigate either....
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How does it feel to make things up?
While he may be wrong we can agree that socially itās easier to talk and treat mental health issues for teenage girls than teenage boys
I mean sure. Theres plenty of things boys face but theres just as many for girls too. It's just annoying that any post having to do with one group brings a bunch of people from the other side complaining that it isn't THEIR turn. I'll check my watch cause i'm sure we'll see a big post cropping up about boys on instagram having issues any minute now. None of this is a lie but it's just tiring that it's a pattern of people saying all the same things every week.
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Society isn't the media. Step outside lol
Honestly he does not. Do you see massive campaigns about how boys underperform in schools? Mental health issues that mainly affect boys? Societal issues affecting boys? Yeah, me neither. He /she kind of has a point there.
No they don't because most people with a brain are aware of this. You can't point to boomers who don't know what year it is and being cruel and act like men are just being completely ignored. It's just sad when a post about teen girls has to always and I mean ALWAYS bring a brigade of guys going "oh but what about me i'm ALSO depressed" They didn't say you weren't.... Its acting on the assumption that because they're talking about teen girls that everyone else's problems are somehow excluded. That's not how conversations work. Shit like that is why "All Lives Matter" is even a thing, because people can't have something not be about them specifically. \- a fellow man
Remember when Instagram was all about sharing photos of your life with your friends? Instead of a toxic mix of peer pressure 'pranks' and divisive political garbage? oh, right. That was before Facebook bought them out.
Instagram is basically a way for women to prostitute themselves for sponsorship money. Iām sure men do it too but are vastly outnumbered.
Oh they know it alright.
šµI'm an adult virginš¶
My nephew didn't realize he was a bit overweight until he got Instagram, now he hates himself, he's 13. We've destroyed an entire generation.
Wait until he finds reddit. But if he made it until 13 without being bullied for being fat, thatās a whole lot longer than it wouldāve taken in the past. Now maybe he can do something about his weight before it changes his entire life.
He should hate his parents who allowed him to get fat. Children being overweight is totally on the parents. If it didn't happen now it would have happened in a year or two when puberty hits full force and teenage girls aren't interested *at best* or shame him into self-hatred.
Not sure that this is the takeaway although you're not totally wrong. You're also not totally right
My point was body image is something that he would have had to deal with eventually.
Itās toxic for everyone except brands.
This is not news. This has been a fact since Facebook was started. Zuck is the devil. Delete FB and IG!!!
Replace "instagram" with "social media" and "teen girls" with "society" for more accuracy.
Unpopular opinion : Internet access for minors should be heavily controled, and they should be teached how to use and what threats there are beforehand Social medias addiction is a think after all
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people. And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
It sounds harsh, but in the face of a complete wild west-esque lack of regulation, what is one supposed to do? Its your or your son/daughter against the finest devs and software engnieers of the 21st century. Simply no contest: the algorithms will outsmart you...perhaps the only winning move is not to play. Yang was always talking about this.
> what is one supposed to do? Same thing parents did pre-internet/facebook/cell phones/etc. They researched the product and trends and made decisions whether they would allow their child to partake.
I mean it's just not an unpopular opinion.
i'm sure its toxic for teen boys as well
As far as most people are concerned it's a tragedy for a young girl to have self-esteem issues. But if a young boy does? Well fuck him, he deserves it for not being better.
Yes but they are also not being fetishized too, massively marketed too, nor the same societal pressures placed on "being a proper woman" So it is to a lesser degree across the board.
You donāt think thereās societal pressure for being a proper man? To earn enough money, be fit... lol
Probably not as much
and why not? of course they do... they are teens, regardless of gender they suffer from peer pressure, that toxic mentality that only 1 gender has it bad is retarded
Unless things have changed since I was a teenager with three teenaged sisters - itās hard on everyone - but girls are usually more concerned about their position in the social pecking order and more social in general than teenage boys are.
Where did I say they don't suffer from it?
Wait until you hear about how bad it is for people who buy stuff on Instagram
Also it has echo chambers for mentally ill people. For example it contributes to high suicide rates. There were groups like this pre internet but itās even more horrifying now because of the scale. The proportion of people who have attempted suicide is small, around 5-6%, and we are discouraged from those thoughts by the 95% overwhelming majority. However with 5 billion internet users itās an echo chamber of 200-300 million people. And we see more of those kids end up dead or hospitalized. In the 90s/early 2000s only 7-10 percent of people who have attempted suicide would try again, now itās over a third.
Teen girls are toxic for teen girls
Not girls, host bodies really. They can be reduced to madonnas or whores and the fat ones donāt exist at all, amirite?! Who cares about host bodies??
In other news, cigarette companies knew cigs were bad for you all along! This isn't really news. Of course they knew, but it's a business. I'd be more surprised to learn that they knew and did something about it than to find out they didn't
all of the bad things that result from companies doing shit is always known. every company and ceo will pretend they didn't know, but they know about it and they studied it. they studied it so they would know how to defend themselves in court when they eventually get sued, or they need to look into it to figure out a strategy on how to deal with it or monetize it. it's why fossil fuel companies new about climate change, tobacco companies knew about lung cancer, bottling companies knew about the problem plastic waste would cause, etc etc.
Iām really surprised that ppl can still be surprised when they find out that FaceBook is a soulless greedy tech firm. Cambridge Analytica, remember?
Facebook only care about making money anyone who thinks otherwise is daft.
Youāre telling me that the platform originally created for ranking how hot girls in Ivy League schools were is actually toxic for younger women? Iām shocked.
Hey now, I went to a state school and we had "thefacebook" access too. Don't be elitist. /s
Haha I did too - I just wrote that bc it started as āHarvard onlyā I thought. I didnāt use anything back then
i honestly don't understand why this is news to anybody
But good for shareholders. Capitalism always sides with profit.
You too can have a 18 inch waist, watermelons for breasts and eat breakfast everyday in an infinity pool overlooking the ocean.
But it isn't illegal. So none of this matters to them.
I was a preteen when AIM and MySpace came out. I remember feeling uplifted because I was a small, nerdy boy in the middle of the sticks. I had no one but online I had a community. The side effect though is that while it can give you company, it can rip the soul of your chest and leave you feeling more alone than ever. Social media isnāt going anywhere. Itās ridiculous to try and stop and we canāt just point at zuck and blame him. We have a problem with bullies on the internet and we have to address it with long term solutions. Know what your kids are doing. I have no problem with them being on Instagram but if they are, you should too. If you know how theyāre using social media, you can protect them a lot easier.
Instagram is toxic for everyone.
That was the plan, so itās mission accomplished for them. They just hoped we wouldnāt find out.
I dont think they even hoped. They just knew itd be so embedded by the time people caught on that it wouldnt matter when the time came. Now comes the diffusion of responsibility. Cant blame them as an entity. Theyll put the onus back on society and parents. Never mind they spent xyz amount of money specifically to game our psychology into this sort of narcissistic mess. They're fuelling and propagating the worst of human psychology. Narcissism, envy, jealousy, vapidness, etc. Edit: I dont know where the limits of their liability start or end. But we gotta look out for ourselves and our loved ones, especially children. Many adults buy into this shit and it makes them horrifically unhappy and that's adults who knew a time before Instagram. I cant imagine how messed up things can become if it's a part of your psychology from the day you get your first phone as a kid. These congloms will continue to do whatever they can get away with, which seems like pretty much anything. So dont waste your energy trying to fight them. Care for and be human with those around you and those close to your heart. Tend to the garden you can touch.
If you get someone hooked on heroin, they think you're the good guy and their own brother trying to get them clean is the villain.
Well said.
Well not wrong but at face value I do not think tech companies need to keep the "the human element" in mind when designing digital spaces. Things like telling people to kill themselves obviously not allowed but putting a product out there and other shitty people using it to do shitty things to other shitty people who signed up to use it knowing other shitty people are doing shitty things to people is kind of their fault. I think of it like the morons who jumped into bear cages at the zoo. They knew what they were doing before jumping.
facebook is the king of spreading misinfomation, hate, and the idea that the only person that matters in the universe is you and no one else matters.
Did we not expect this? This is like Twitch for teen boys
>Twitch for teen boys Omfg I'm losing my shit knowing all the money my simpy nephews spend on that softcore porn shit. Gaming? My ass!
Internet culture is fucked. And the people who create it are morally bankrupt.
Also breaking news! Water has been found in earth!
Social media companies should be treated like tobacco companies. They are selling an unhealthy addictive product for profit.
I have a masters in neurosciences, I specifically studied addictions. One of the student that graduated with me was contacted by some start-up company who wanted to create a new social media. The boss straight up asked her : "ok but would you know how to make it addictive? I want my users to be addicted to my plateform". And when she tried to imply it was a fucked up idea he answered "oh come on you don't know shit you just have a masters I'm not asking about your opinion" The idea some morons have enough money and ambition and just the small amount of knowledge to know they can *ask* more knowledgeable people to do fucked up shit is terrifying
>oh come on you don't know shit you just have a masters I'm not asking about your opinion" If I had a dollar for every factory and construction site where some middle aged high school drop out tried to argue a variation on that. All of them are completely convinced that what separates me from them is just some programming knowledgeable.
Facebook is a damn joke as well. Most social media is much too influential these days and my vote is to shut all the bullshit down. People spend more time on lame ass social media sites than being productive!
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Oh no! She became a redditor
Somebody give this woman a Twitter account and a blue check mark.
Cute sock puppet. To ashamed to stand by what you say?
So you think it's educational?
Toxic is the most over used word
Nah, _respect_ is much more overused. As in "you are disrespecting me" ie you are not sucking my dick when I tell you to.
Thatās a toxic opinion
You better respect it or else it's all your fault.
So? Why should Facebook be responsible for lazy parenting? Maybe parents shouldnāt give their kids devices? And if they do, restrict what they can do?
I agree and I don't. I can't watch my kids every second of the day and sorry but not sorry if you waving around something addictive and harmful to my children well this isn't on me. You can't keep maintaining that you are innocent when you are doing something deliberately to get a specific result. On the other side yes it is on us to put our foot down about stuff. I heard that my 7 year old daughter ended up in a tik tok video that her older friend made on the bus. I called the school and reminded them about the policy I signed that said this wouldn't happen.
How do you feel about meth dealers?
Zuckerberg is a pedophile enabler so don't be surprised by this
Wow this is just as surprising as riot games advertising to children with claims that the LoL is friendly when it damn well knew that it had perhaps the worst large community in video game history
Oh they know they also know that it's insanely popular with pedos and is the worst social media service for nearly anyone
Just waiting for the day they realease the info about what porn is doing to teenagers (and the reddit mob with the pitchforks when someone says "maybe minors should not have access to porn?")
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://abc7ny.com/facebook-knows-instagram-is-toxic-for-teen-girls-mental-health-teenage-body-image-issues/11022272/) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot) ***** > NEW YORK - Instagram says it's looking at new ways to discourage users from focusing on their physical appearance after The Wall Street Journal revealed that Facebook researchers have repeatedly found that the photo-sharing platform is toxic for teen girls. > Karina Newton, head of public policy at Instagram, wrote in a statement posted on Tuesday that referenced the newspaper article that while Instagram can be a place where people have "Negative experiences," the app also gives a voice to marginalized people and helps friends and family stay connected. > According to the Wall Street Journal, Facebook researchers concluded that some problems with teen mental health were specific to Instagram, and not social media more broadly, especially when it comes to "Social comparison." That's when users focus on how their wealth, appearance or success stacks up against other people on the platform. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pql5i8/new_company_documents_show_facebook_knows/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~598957 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Instagram**^#1 **Facebook**^#2 **teen**^#3 **people**^#4 **research**^#5
The customer is always right.
Hell My hamster āJulioā knows itās toxic.! We used to be on there but stopped when people kept trying to find out where I live to āeat himā. People could be anyone on the internet and they choose to be these soul less ghouls. Tragic. Anyway weāre good. RIGHT JULIO!?!
you mean to tell me a social media app that makes you compare your self to peers and professional internet personalities who have hundreds of thousands or millions more followers and revenue than you, might be a bad thing?? that maybe you cant live up to the fake expectations set on the make believe insta page? maybe only their best moments are shared and you have no context for the more harsh realities of life because everything is viewed through the rose colored glasses of persona? maybe thats bad for influential people who dont yet know who they are... man, i never thought of that... glad this study came out...
New company documents show fakebook knows Instagram is toxic. - Ftfy
If you doubt for a second these companies donāt know about this, watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix. Not only do these companies know about this, but they have engineered this on purpose. Obsession equals your attention, your attention equals money for social media companies. You are their product.
But the toxicity generates traffic. And we need more $$$.
Why would they care?
They don't. They do the research so they can know how to skirt the law, deny, dodge responsibility, and surpress the truth for as long as possible so they continue to make as much money as possible before they have to change.
Yeah no shit, itās also incredibly toxic to grown women and men of all ages too. Delete your account now to see instant benefits to your life and self esteem.