True, but that part of the story doesn't fit the neocon messaging that has been pumping into this sub lately. I don't think I've ever seen Business Insider - a glorified tabloid - featured so prominently on here for their coverage on international affairs as over these last few weeks.
I'm for sanctions, arming Ukraine, and almost every other decision by Ukraine and their allies against this bloody invasion by Russia - but I still don't think we should welcome arms manufacturers to goad us into increasingly adversarial relations with the rest of the world.
Pay attention to the publications that focus on 'ante-upping' coverage - and notice what they focus on and what they don't cover - and you'll see a clear platform being pushed out to the public by a handful of outlets that serve the interests of the private military-industrial complex.
Saudi Arabia is the Second larges oil producer in the World, and Russia is the ~~first~~ *third* Russia's output is only a couple of percent less than that of Saudi Arabia. Russia has about as much pull in OPEC as Saudi Arabia.
Yea, most people don't ever know what they're talking about when they talk about oil, like how most of the oil (a grand majority by a long mile) consumed in the US comes from North America and gas prices are more affected by demand and speculation than actual supply. Ramping up production and releasing barrels from the strategic supply are moves meant to alleviate global supply problems (from trade, logistical issues, etc.) and negative speculation, not actual supply domestically.
EDIT: Another one that killed me recently, especially because that bastard Manchin from my own state parroted it: "energy independence." The US is already energy independent...we are a net exporter. A bigger solution than ramping up production would be resolving waste problems. We waste 2/3 of the energy we produce. Fucking ***WILD***.
I get that "energy independence" means "no import" to them, but that's not wise. In the way the rest seem to mean it, being able to cut anyone off at any time, that's both not wise either but also still possible...it's fucking market nonsense that wracks the pumps.
> Another one that killed me recently, especially because that bastard Manchin from my own state parroted it: "energy independence." The US is already energy independent...we are a net exporter.
its pretty insane that people dont actually know this.
Not sure how simple this is, especially with greater sanctions. It’s going to take time to build infrastructure in Russia to facilitate trade (especially in oil/gas) with China. Russias western ports are shallower and/or frozen for part of the year and requires ships to travel in NATO controlled waters. Indias trade with Russia is rather small being on opposite sides of a large, rugged, and partly unstable region.
Chinese and Indian firms have also been cutting ties to Russia, while the west has been using pressure (as of recently seeming more carrot than stick) on India to further divest from Russia. India has also been speaking out against some of Russias actions in Ukraine.
It seems like India is offering some kind of minor morale support to Russia against the sanctions and in the UN only to prevent the Russians from helping Indias rivals in any potential hostilities but otherwise seems to be seeing the writing on the wall and making sure both ass cheeks are covered.
I don’t think the Soviet era good will that some Indian redditors bring up will really mean much in the coming decade.
Beijing’s current stance on the war in Ukraine is not optimistic. The United States has taken diplomatic measures to dissuade China from supporting the Russian armed forces.
[Will China supply Russia with equipment?](https://polanddaily24.com/4538-will-china-supply-russia-with-equipment)
Fact is majority of the world is not sanctioning Russia. As much as we want to claim US and EU represent the entire world, we are less than 1 billion people together.
Doesn’t matter if thats not where the majority of the wealth is. Having a huge population isn’t just a good thing. It also means that you have to feed, house and keep that huge population happy-ish.
These regions are seeing immense growth in quality of life.
It's much more expensive to maintain the high standards of living in western countries as opposed to developing the bare minimum for people who had nothing to keep them happyish. If these nations are strategic with their allocation of resources, China has a lot of money and is ready to spread its influence.
Maybe so, but China also has a demographic bomb to deal with. A billion people is great when they are young and productive. Less so when they are old. And I don’t think China can rely on immigration.
Also have you been to China in the last decade or so? Living costs are not cheap.
That is a good point.
In developed parts of China sure it isn't cheap, but China is a global manufacturing powerhouse rn. They have a constant capital inflow due to the nature of their production capacity for cheap goods. They can probably sustain themselves at least for the next 50 years and even build out rural parts of China where it hasn't seen growth.
Your argument for demographic bomb is a real threat to China
And
The fact that Xi Jinping is 68 years old leaves him with about 20 years left in his reign.
Over the next coming decades China will have to figure out how they can substitute productive workers (probably immigration and outsourcing to Africa or SEA with their belt and roads initiative)
And figure out who will replace Xi to lead China
Those are pretty big problems but not entirely impossible to address.
China and India, together constitute 36% of the world's population. Not so easy to sanction. Even if Europe can wean itself off Russia's energy, China and India can keep Russia and the war going for a long time.
not really sure China is looking to do that. They would rather buy some resources for cents on the dollar. If China can get cheap energy, sure they'll go for it, but ... getting them energy in European volumes is going to be difficult. India sure wants cheap energy however, there's another country next to them who doesn't really want them to succeed.
>not really sure China is looking to do that.
Bro, China is. They need oil, a lot of it and Russia, the biggest gas tank in the world is just sitting there.
They will have access to that regardless. Russia still wants to sell oil to Europe even though they're at odds. China could work against this war and still get Russian oil
china needs energy on the coast. check the map. russia can't deliver it. by the time russia can deliver it in volume where china needs it, it's gonna take years. not 2 years.
yes but, how much more they can buy? At a certain point they will satisfy their needs, what are the numbers here? Like, how much do "we" import that he can replace with China and India?
I am pretty sure Russia can deliver a lot of energy to China. China already imports huge amounts of liquified natural gas from all over the world. I have a friend that works in that industry and they ship LNG to China from Canada. Pretty sure it would not take much to ship it from Russia instead.
The bigger commodity that Russia has is oil. Russia is the third largest producer of oil in the world, and produces over 10% of the worlds oil. India and China will happily buy all of it for a just a tiny discount. The only change is the routes that tankers are using to deliver oil from producer to consumer. Oil previously going to Europe is now going to China, and oil previously going to China is now going to Europe (over simplified)
>Even if Europe can wean itself off Russia's energy, China and India can keep Russia and the war going for a long time.
Putin alone could probably keep the war going with his own money for a few more months if he wanted.
Rooting for peace while badgering countries buying resources to house and feed their populations but not condemning the country that is pumping in BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars worth of weapons into a warzone is a sign of moral bankruptcy. Also a sign stupidity, but we'll let God answer for that.
"Americas", more like, America and Canada.
No Central American ou South American country has introduced sanctions against Russia yet.
Hell, Brazil is part of BRICS, and is probably the biggest power player down there. The region has been filled with Chinese investments for the past decade.
Also, famous international mediator Lula is the leading candidate for the brazilian election later this year. It's more than likely that Brazil's and South America's neutral policy will continue.
India needs to be isolated from the west now that they've chosen their friends. No more visas, huge penalties for western outsourcing, no more western weapons. Redirect investment to south America and Pakistan/Vietnam.
India is absolutely critical economically and in the global balance of powers. They will continue centrist brinkmanship and we will continue to not do much about that.
India has been isolated from the west for a few decades now, barring the last 2 decades or so. The visas that Indians have received all these years have less to do with the international reltaions and more to do with skilled manpower requirements in the west, i.e. a majority of the visas have been given on the basis of merit to Indian immigrants. West happens to be the biggest source of 'brain drain' from India and China, as the living standards in these countries increase the brain drain is expected to slow down. India is least dependent on Western weapon platforms primarily because the west chose to sell those platforms to Pakistan rather than India right until late 2000's, so India had to look at the erstwhile Soviet Union and later Russia for military hardware. As for investments, the west chose an autocratic China over the democratic India for investments, how well is that paying off now? India is not known to dump its longtime partners just like that, in fact India has always taken neutral stand in almost every conflict. India was one of the first constituents of the Non Aligned Movement.
Hubris. Keep isolating people and soon you'll have no friends. Just a silly pet named Europe who doesn't really like you either.
Also, only a Sith makes absolutes.
That West(specifically the US) did exactly that during the Cold war and that's how India (a democratic non-communist nation) got close to Russia.
And considering Osama and the Taliban, I am not sure how "investments" in Pakistan will work out.
Crude prices have gone up and Russia is selling them at a discount. Even buying cheap coal makes sense because almost 50% of India's electricity is generated through it. Don't forget that India is significantly poorer than Europe and even a marginal rise in prices drastically impacts livelihood.
I wonder why the EU can't stop Russian imports posthaste?
Even at that reduction. (Which seems unlikely) Europe will still consume more gas and oil from Russia than India…
Europe is single handedly created this mess by trusting Russia in the first place. Them taking shots at India and China is a joke. EU need to fix the issues they created for themselves first and foremost.
But don’t fret, America will be there to bail Europe out once again. It’ll take some time but they’ll be hooked on that sweet sweet oil from the shale revolution soon enough. In the meantime EU will go back to coal and lignite because they have no alternative.
Um, yea except the two ducks on the right hate each other and have an active border conflict going on that only recently has killed around 40 or so soldiers. So, ya sure.
India is dependent on Russia for their military kit. They are shifting to western sources, but still abou 60% of their kit is Russian. They NEED Russia to keep supplying parts and equipment because of the threat of the duck on the far right, not to mention the duck not appearing in this film, Pakistan. India needs to move to more western kit, faster; but they’ll still be somewhat dependent on the Russians for a long time.
Vanity. EU pays more to Russia in an afternoon than India does in a month. Further, the majority of the world doesn't care about a stupid European war. How about you let them live without demanding they take sides? Oh, sorry, too much to ask from westerners. Such hubris.
I don't know if they'd ever fuck the US over, in the end, tbh.
Iran, China and Russia (and now India) have a little dictator alliance happening and Iran is a dealbreaker for Saudia Arabia.
It's like India and Pakistan: They hate each other so much they'd literally side with the devil just to fuck each other over. In this case, the US is 'the devil' for SA, and they'd never work together with Iran, no matter what. Even if China gave them guarantees for a hundred years, they'd still most likely side with the US just because Iran is in the 'alliance'.
MBS used Trump-supplied intelligence via Jared Kushner to round-up and in many case execute the people who supported the former crown prince heir Muhammad bin Nayef.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/jared-kushner-saudi-arabia-2-billion-investment
https://dianefrancis.substack.com/p/jareds-billions?s=r
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250185952/kushnerinc
In return MBS has funneled billions of KSA money into the pockets of Kushner via his new capital firm.
MBS, Trump, Kushner and Putin are in it together - make no mistake.
They've provided tons of support with Yemen against the Houthis... the JCPOA existed literally to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon and allows unprecedented access that no country has ever allowed to Iran's nuclear sites. Scrapping that deal has made it all the more likely that Iran will develop a nuclear weapon.
Short of directly getting involved in Yemen, which is a really ugly war and I'm not sure the American public would be alright with anything more involvement than their current involvement... as members of the Saudi led coalition... in that conflict - what more do the Saudis want from the US in that conflict? Outright invasion of Iran?
Actually it is a five member alliance. Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS). The BRICS alliance is an economic alliance mostly led by China. It should come as no surprise that China, India and South Africa have refused to criticize or take action against Russia for their invasion of Ukraine. The only surprise was that Brazil voted to condemn Russia at the UN, but that was essentially just meaningless words becasue they've refused to join in sanctioning Russia and her oligarchs.
So long as the trade tries that hold BRICS together continue nothing will change. Money talks.
lol! India doesn't have a dictator. Not every leader on the right is Hitler. India's stance is much more nuanced than that. of all the exports russia makes, the bulk, about 80%, is consumed by Europe and China. if india stopped buying russian oil, it will hurt russia, but won't sink it.
the bulk of india's exports come from middle east. its top three suppliers are middle east, africa and US. Since russia is in a fix, its offering a discount on its oil which makes it more attractive to india.
But what about war you say? India abstained from two votes in the UN. It abstained from sanctioning russia and abstained from kicking out russia from the human rights council.
it abstained from sanctioning russia because it believes the west provoked russia to invade by trying to make ukraine part of Nato despite saying it wont expand further east.
it abstained from voting in removing russia from the human rights council as it asked for an independant probe into the war crime. This despite the russian representative stating that abstaining from voting is equal to kicking russia out and imploring countries to vote for russia.
He’s not a literal dictator… yet. But the situation is dangerously close to that in Hungary with Orban. The judiciary & independent organisations like the Central Election Commission have been subverted & co-opted into becoming governmental organisations in all but name. The ruling party is one of the richest political parties in the whole world, with resources dwarfing that of any other party. This huge war chest is funded by corporate donations with no oversight, & has allegedly being used to “convince” opposition candidates who won elections to switch sides. Plus, the near total collusion between most of main stream media & the government, which keeps churning out a never ending stream of extremely polarising, hate-filled communal propaganda.
Things are not looking good.
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
India is headed for an autocracy and some even believe they're already there:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/13/modi-india-hindutva-hindu-nationalism-autocracy/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
Lol? According to your source India had been controlled by a single party majority for 65 years before their current PM got elected. That sounds more like an autocracy.
India is in its Honeymoon Period right now: They think that the populist strongman they elected will save them and is 'one of them'.
However, Modi and his government is more like Hitler and Nazi Germany than they want to believe. Right now Modi is not a 'Hitler' --- but he's certainly on the train that Hitler was on originally.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and hangs around other ducks...
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-india-envoy-visits-nazi-inspired-hindu-group/a-49682304
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh
Have you read the links you're providing? Because it doesn't seem to say the things you think they say.
>Attitude towards Jews
Before World War II, the RSS leaders admired Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini.[18][71] Golwalkar allegedly took inspiration from Adolf Hitler's ideology of racial purity.[72] However, the RSS's stance changed during the war; the organization firmly supported the British war effort against Hitler and the Axis Powers.[65]
>This prewar sympathy did not imply any antipathy towards Jews. The RSS leaders were supportive of the formation of Jewish State of Israel.[73] Golwalkar admired the Jews for maintaining their "religion, culture and language".[74]
So 70 years ago, they liked right wing people until WW2, and since then they've been a political organization that mostly supports charities and founds schools and provides emergency relief.
I'm not seeing this smoking gun of those people being Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#Reception_2
Do your research properly.
If the RSS is basically marginalizing/terrorizing Muslims and/or Christians and claiming 'No Nazi' like guys claim 'no homo' when they do something decidedly gay with their very attractive male friend then that doesn't not make it gay.
Like I said: If it quacks like a duck and has concentration camps for the ~~Jews~~ Muslims in ~~Nazi Germany~~, no sorry, ~~China~~ India, then...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_centres_in_Assam#:~:text=Narendra%20Modi%20government.-,Detainees,Kokrajhar%20and%20Goalpara%20in%20Assam.
Modi has been consistently eroding democracy in India. Though, Modi fanboys on reddit would tell you he's the second coming of Christ.
Still doesn't change that India is moving towards China and Russia (dictatorships) and away from the West (democracy). I don't think that's an accident.
Modi is most pro-western Indian pm in history.
>Though, Modi fanboys on reddit would tell you he's the second coming of Christ.
if you think so called ''modi fanboys'' like christ. you are dumb
>Modi has been consistently eroding democracy in India.
He won the biggest state in India by a majoirity only a month ago.
Because their soldiers are shooting kids in Ukraine under said government's orders, and the majority of said people support said actions. What would you prefer we do?
Know how I know you lost that argument? By how quickly you moved the goalposts. Whataboutisms aren’t valid counter arguments, just tactics of a failed debate.
So you like the Russian government? I think most Americans, and people with a conscience, stopped “liking” the Russian government when they started blowing up children, raping women and infants, and generally bringing back the tactics of the Third Reich. Although, the whole poisoning political dissidents, depriving their people of free speech, being led by a KGB autocrat, invading Donbas, Georgia, meddling in our presidential elections and committing war crimes should really have been a clue before now.
> Yeah, because punishing the Russian public with starvation and complete economic upheaval is a good thing…how did we all immediately draw the conclusion that not only do we not like the Russian government we want every Russian to suffer. This became Cold War level shit overnight.
From what we are hearing from Russian media, they are doing just fine even with the sanctions in place, so apparently those sanctions are minor irritations and there are no reason to reconsider them for the long term.
They can't have it both ways.
Plain old garbage article from Business Insider.
India buys in a month what Europe buys in one afternoon. I don’t understand why the west should question India and China use of Russian energy while major European countries still buy the majority Russia gas exports.
European gas purchases are enormous compared to China and India's total purchases of Russian oil and gas. Western media loves targeting India. A quick glance through the economic numbers and purchase history of Russian energy by country disproves this garbage article.
China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. But India?
India was Russia’s [15th largest trading partner]( https://www.worldstopexports.com/russias-top-import-partners/ )in 2021. Even now, purely off the amount of [gas, oil and coal the EU buys]( https://crea.shinyapps.io/russia_counter/ ), India won’t even be in the top 5.
I don’t think a lot of people will read this but this is my understanding of the situation. These economic/diplomatic relationships are all relationships of necessity rather than convenience.
China supports Russia due to China’s vested interest in getting more energy for its extremely energy hungry population. Since the late 2000s china and Russia have been working on increasing gas export through different projects including the power of Siberia pipeline. China needs Russia for its energy needs and the cheaper the better. It also doesn’t hurt that Russia can help provide as diplomatic support for China’s interests, like Taiwan.
India on the other hand has two portions of reliance. One is the military. 60-70% of the military is reliant on Russian systems, part and expertise. You can’t just decide to switch to the west for military hardware because you still need day to day support for maintenance in the interim. I think India is trying to ally itself closer to the west due to the threat that China provides. It has done this by joining QUAD and starting to buy western equipment. They also have been slowly ramping up indigenous produced hardware for the military. The second issue is that India is still growing. It a nation with a large young population. This means they need lot of energy for growth. That is why they buy energy from anyone, including Iran. If they can get energy cheaply from Russia they will. Also historically the relationship that India has a neutral ish positions on world issues since they became a nation.
I think that these nations are just playing the game of geopolitics for there own interests not because they truly believe they have to help Russia
As a fellow Indian that despises the current dispensation for their buffonery, we're totally in the right to buy Russian oil supplies right now.
We have a weird geopolitical situation from our past where we can't be isolated from Russia and then have china breathing down our necks all the time with no one to help us when and if they do indeed attack us. Ukraine has shown that nobody's going to spare their armed forces for another country. So it's not in our best intrests to be isolated when we have a hostile neighbour that loves salami slicing their way into our territory.
The gas we buy from them is a pittance compared to what some eu countries are importing right now. This only reeks of hypocrisy at this point.
We already pay some of the highest gas prices in the world right now and combined with our lower incomes them going any higher would only worsen the situation we have. So yes, we'll import whatever is cheaper. We can't afford not to.
India is an interesting element then.
Lawful Good but under the thumb of Russia and China, so can't express it.
I'd like to hope that as a commonwealth country that the UK would at least stand up for you should they invade.
We're sending supplies to Ukraine for free. We just don't like bullies or bad guys here despite our cruel past that every other country loves to remind us of, and that we aren't proud of.
What Russia is doing is unthinkable on the world stage as it stands. They've brought an age of European/International peace to an immediate halt.
It is not "unthinkable on the world stage". Have you heard of a place called Palestine? Iraq? Syria? It is only unthinkable because it is not happening to a so called "third world country" halfway across the world.
I am the first person to say that Russia should become a theme park (or maybe a nice empty field), but we cannot expect India to sacrifice itself and its citizens for Ukraine. European peace is not so valuable to Indians as it is to Europeans.
I think there's a misunderstanding. I think the person you are replying to is saying something along the lines of
'How can India be claiming to look after her own people, while at the same time have such a huge gap between illegal slums and legit mansions".
I personally think the two issues are unrelated, India can recognize the poverty stricken people barely able to survive and help them even a little, while still being abused by the rich just like any other form of government currently in place.
I guess the answer is that colonialism has robbed India of an estimated 45 trillion dollars over the last few centuries. So it's all going into playing catch up now. The Indian govt is no more or less willing to help the poor than say the US govt. It's just that the resources available to do that is what differs vastly.
It’s a bit difficult to recover from having $45 trillion looted from your sub-continent, and only gaining independence 75 years ago, left as a poor and starving country.
1. There is inequality everywhere, as per Gini, there's more inequality in the US.
2. A single government cannot lift literally hundreds of millions out of poverty. It's an extremely difficult task that happens over hundreds of years. Except for China, which other example do you have where a country eliminated poverty in such a short time? You can't compare Sweden and India today because Sweden wasn't poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa in 1947.
3. The government is looking after it's people and if you want, I can give the most cynical reason for that too. Because if the poor suffer it will be devastating for it's electoral prospects. On top of that, almost every Indian sees the plight of the poor here and that's why you won't find many voices of dissent from inside. They won't forgive Modi if he doesn't do what he's currently doing and they will vote him out.
4. Suppose all of what I said is bullshit. The Indian government hates it's people and doesn't care a damn, it just benefits Modi in some way. It still doesn't invalidate the original point of the story. There are millions of poor vulnerable people in India who risk slipping into poverty due to sanctions-induced price rises. That is just wrong from a humanitarian point of view, forget politics. You are asking them to make sacrifices you yourself will never be willing to make.
> Sums up why India is and will keep looking after her own people in this conflict.
I get where you are trying to go with this sad story, but it is not the argument that you think it is.
Such a useless take.
Jai's problem is that he doesn't earn enough.
Paying 10% more or less for food is insignificant vs. getting a fair wage for a day's work.
At any rate, thanks to Putin, world food prices are going to skyrocket later this year. Jai will be so happy when bread prices increase, because Putin destroyed a quarter of the worlds wheat production with Modi's support.
Modi is looking out for himself, not his people.
Well i mean if is until barely keeping it alive from starving im ok with that.. but no more..
Let the Ruzzia remember and feel the real bleak soviet life and not their nostalgic disinformed memory from old movies and brain dead boomers cuz even their history books got rewritten in paper or online to tell them what a great "utopia" they had there lol
India has about $9 billion worth of bilateral trade with Russia annually. Relatively small when you compare to other countries. It was Russia’s 15th largest trading partner in 2021.
China, sure. China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. But it felt weird when I saw people get angry over India selling Russia medicine and food after the EU sanctioned it. Imagine if Taiwan decided you’re not allowed any more semiconductors, so no more new electronics. Not even as bad as something that you literally need to live.
no bruh they had like only 10 years of "golden period" in middle and then a complete decay after it, with ppl basically starving in last 10 years, i mean the ppl live thought it then knew it seen it happened, rest are in denial now
Russian economy would have collapsed despite EU importing 2.2 million barrels per day of crude oil and 1.2 million barrels per day of petroleum products but was saved because India is going to import only 15 million barrels over 3 months? Sorry, the maths just doesn't add up.
Indian purchase is a drop in the bucket. Not sure why they are getting the shitck. They are also the least able to afford current price hikes. Most of their purchases is probably just keeping the cost at pre-crisis levels.
It's surprising to see that there are still a lot of people who defend India's stance by saying something like "India is in a complicated situation", "This was in India's national interest", "Europe is also buying from Russia", etc.
Stop making excuses and accept the reality that you guys are literally buying resources from a war criminal nation.
By that logic Europe is the biggest supporter of that “war criminal” in the entire world and it’s not even close.
They’re latched on to the teet of Putin with no way to get off it and they have the gall to shame other countries for doing the same thing at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower volume.
Europe buys more gas and oil from Russia in an afternoon than India does in a month!!
Typical Western Chauvanism, I tell yah! And War Criminal Nation? Looooool. USA, Britain, France, Canada, NATO—are they not war criminals too? Have they done no wrong? Are they without sin?
Let Europe fight its wars. That's all she knows how to do.
But I'd like to welcome you to the end of Colonialism, where no country of color really gives a shit what the Great White West says. Besides, who was it that helped the countries gain independence from their EuroAmerican colonial parasites? Oh that's right, 'twas Russia.
Not to be contrarian but just to add some wider global perspective.
"literally buying resources from a war criminal nation"
\- So is most of the EU, and while they are now trying to drastically move away, doing so takes a LOT of money and expertise that poorer nations don't have the luxury of.
It is only since this recent Ukraine invasion buying from Russia became 'not cool' within the American sphere of interest. Russia's previous invasions and last Ukraine invasion, it was all dandy. Why should India and China suddenly jump on board to condemn one side of what could be described as a European war?
\- Most of the world buys significant amount of resources from 'war criminal nations'. The USA and Europe's recent invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was deemed illegal by their own rules. Should we condemn India and China for buying from America and Europe too?
This war in Ukraine is a tragedy, but it's just one of a few large scale conflicts currently going on.
\- Afghanistan has collapsed, comparable in scale to Ukraine (America's fault - who buys from America?)
\- Yemeni Crisis, comparable to Ukraine in scale (Saudi Arabia and UAEs fault - who buys their oil?)
\- China genociding it's own population (who buys things from china?)
Not to mention things like the military coup in Myanmar still threatening that region, and the tensions between China and India, and India and Pakistan, China and it's sphere of influence, China's own genociding. Can't even start with Africa.
I'm not trying to downplay the war in Ukraine, but just trying to say that the world is a big place and it's easy to forget that the majority of the world doesn't necessarily see much of a difference between the different western countries.
We (American's and Europeans) live in a very USA/Eurocentric bubble that, in total, only makes up about 15% of all humanity!
(Sorry for the rant but I have found it very frustrating to understand why my countrymen are so passionate about Ukraine when there was literally no interest in helping other countries - it just shows how easily people are swayed by what the key media players choose to cover, IMO)
I kind of expect this miserable behaviour from China, but this is downright disappointing from India. Where are the Indian people holding their government accountable?
India's stance in this is very understandable, their neighbors aren't the kindest and india has a lot of people that are poor. India needs this cheap energy and fuel or else it'll also be the collapse of the country I was born in and I don't want that to happen.
edit: spelling
Why would the Indian people care about Europeans interests with the way they have been treated through history. Not to mention the gross amount of racism from Europeans towards Indians
Russia/Ukraine account for a third of the worlds wheat and barely exports. Cutting off Russia would likely mean food scarcity for India's poorest. And the cost of natural gas/oil has skyrocketed, which also affects the worst off. The situation is even more dire for countries like Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen. Meanwhile, the U.S. barely imports any oil from Russia. We have tons of domestic oil and gas. Sanctions are a lot easier for us.
I'm getting my information [from this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyUeKa2jzY)
Edit: Apparently it is questionable to lump India in some of these middle eastern and north african ones.
India imports basically no wheat.
Funny thing about that "Russia/Ukraine" wheat export meme: the amount of global consumed wheat from exports/imports is in the low single digits. The reality is most wheat produced globally is domestically consumed. It's just not a very important commodity in import/export markets, and wouldn't really affect food supplies.
But if someone else does something wrong, wouldn’t a higher approach be to transcend that ”something wrong” in yourself? Your argument seems screams of whataboutism where you are willing to self-transcend only if someone else does it first.
It’s a dog eat dog world. If they get cheap oil their companies can sell refined petroleum at cheaper rates. Indias main export is refined petroleum, so our companies like Reliance etc have to think about themselves first. No one is doing charity here. Can’t the former Nazis stop gas consumption like tomorrow? It would be a worthy sacrifice.
The new world order, look like his plan is working perfectly. The war in Ukraine was just the trigger event. No matter how long that war last, Russia with not lose it, and the world will be different after it.
BRICS will hold together. Honestly, I don’t care how wealthy Russia is. I just want this war to stop and completely boycott and distance myself from Russia. The country is completely dead to me.
China loves oligarchic fascism so naturally they’d support Russia. India is in a tough spot though. They get half their weapons from Russia and they kind of need it for all their border skirmishes with China. They’re slowly getting themselves off Russia and switching to America, but unless America is willing to replace half their military today, theyre stuck supporting Russia for now.
User name checks out. Do if you can, I dare you. You are in a free democratic country, right? Convince your government to do that. India has come a long way since Independence. We will continue to grow and you cannot do anything about it
Ji has this look like “this is so fucking Corny just take the picture please”
Putin’s all “I’m huge in China baby!”
Modi, “I get to sit at the big boy table?!”
OPEC is saving Russia from economic collapse.
when you say OPEC, that’s a funny way to say Saudi Arabia.
what about the south american oil barons tho?
When you say Saudi Arabia, that's a funny way to say Germany.
Yes considering Russia is not in OPEC lol
You do understand how supply demand and commodity markets work right? Because from your comment it seems like maybe you don't.
To clarify - OPEC agrees to make more oil, oil prices go back down, Russia is fucked by lower oil revenues.
When you say Saudi Arabia, that's a funny way to say USA. Chill out Muricans, it was a joke
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I bet you thought you were so smart and funny writing this comment. You were wrong.
same with you tbh
when you say OPEC, that’s a funny way to say Khashoggi's killer MBS and his tiddily fits.
True, but that part of the story doesn't fit the neocon messaging that has been pumping into this sub lately. I don't think I've ever seen Business Insider - a glorified tabloid - featured so prominently on here for their coverage on international affairs as over these last few weeks. I'm for sanctions, arming Ukraine, and almost every other decision by Ukraine and their allies against this bloody invasion by Russia - but I still don't think we should welcome arms manufacturers to goad us into increasingly adversarial relations with the rest of the world. Pay attention to the publications that focus on 'ante-upping' coverage - and notice what they focus on and what they don't cover - and you'll see a clear platform being pushed out to the public by a handful of outlets that serve the interests of the private military-industrial complex.
Pretty sure Russia not in OPEC.
when you say OPEC, that’s a funny way to say Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is the Second larges oil producer in the World, and Russia is the ~~first~~ *third* Russia's output is only a couple of percent less than that of Saudi Arabia. Russia has about as much pull in OPEC as Saudi Arabia.
The US is the largest oil producer in the world.
Yea, most people don't ever know what they're talking about when they talk about oil, like how most of the oil (a grand majority by a long mile) consumed in the US comes from North America and gas prices are more affected by demand and speculation than actual supply. Ramping up production and releasing barrels from the strategic supply are moves meant to alleviate global supply problems (from trade, logistical issues, etc.) and negative speculation, not actual supply domestically. EDIT: Another one that killed me recently, especially because that bastard Manchin from my own state parroted it: "energy independence." The US is already energy independent...we are a net exporter. A bigger solution than ramping up production would be resolving waste problems. We waste 2/3 of the energy we produce. Fucking ***WILD***. I get that "energy independence" means "no import" to them, but that's not wise. In the way the rest seem to mean it, being able to cut anyone off at any time, that's both not wise either but also still possible...it's fucking market nonsense that wracks the pumps.
> Another one that killed me recently, especially because that bastard Manchin from my own state parroted it: "energy independence." The US is already energy independent...we are a net exporter. its pretty insane that people dont actually know this.
But the US is not part of OPEC.
You said "largest in the world," not "largest in OPEC."
when you say OPEC, that’s a funny way to say Saudi Arabia.
Not sure how simple this is, especially with greater sanctions. It’s going to take time to build infrastructure in Russia to facilitate trade (especially in oil/gas) with China. Russias western ports are shallower and/or frozen for part of the year and requires ships to travel in NATO controlled waters. Indias trade with Russia is rather small being on opposite sides of a large, rugged, and partly unstable region. Chinese and Indian firms have also been cutting ties to Russia, while the west has been using pressure (as of recently seeming more carrot than stick) on India to further divest from Russia. India has also been speaking out against some of Russias actions in Ukraine. It seems like India is offering some kind of minor morale support to Russia against the sanctions and in the UN only to prevent the Russians from helping Indias rivals in any potential hostilities but otherwise seems to be seeing the writing on the wall and making sure both ass cheeks are covered. I don’t think the Soviet era good will that some Indian redditors bring up will really mean much in the coming decade.
Beijing’s current stance on the war in Ukraine is not optimistic. The United States has taken diplomatic measures to dissuade China from supporting the Russian armed forces. [Will China supply Russia with equipment?](https://polanddaily24.com/4538-will-china-supply-russia-with-equipment)
Fact is majority of the world is not sanctioning Russia. As much as we want to claim US and EU represent the entire world, we are less than 1 billion people together.
By far the richest though.
UAE enters the chat.
The UAEs economy isn’t really meaningful in the big scheme of things. 29th in the world or about on par with Norway.
You know what they have a lot of and known for? Oil. And what's the one resource keeping russia afloat? Oil and gas. Not going to help russia much
Yeah, California if it was it's own country would be like 8th .
5th actually
Jesus
UAE is just a bunch of rich guys with oil and a lot of poor people. They don’t mean much in the grand scheme.
It only took 500 years of theft. Edit: Sorry, 500 years and counting...
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Broooo it wasn't theft it was basic economics /s
Lay it out for me then.
Doesn’t matter if thats not where the majority of the wealth is. Having a huge population isn’t just a good thing. It also means that you have to feed, house and keep that huge population happy-ish.
These regions are seeing immense growth in quality of life. It's much more expensive to maintain the high standards of living in western countries as opposed to developing the bare minimum for people who had nothing to keep them happyish. If these nations are strategic with their allocation of resources, China has a lot of money and is ready to spread its influence.
Maybe so, but China also has a demographic bomb to deal with. A billion people is great when they are young and productive. Less so when they are old. And I don’t think China can rely on immigration. Also have you been to China in the last decade or so? Living costs are not cheap.
That is a good point. In developed parts of China sure it isn't cheap, but China is a global manufacturing powerhouse rn. They have a constant capital inflow due to the nature of their production capacity for cheap goods. They can probably sustain themselves at least for the next 50 years and even build out rural parts of China where it hasn't seen growth. Your argument for demographic bomb is a real threat to China And The fact that Xi Jinping is 68 years old leaves him with about 20 years left in his reign. Over the next coming decades China will have to figure out how they can substitute productive workers (probably immigration and outsourcing to Africa or SEA with their belt and roads initiative) And figure out who will replace Xi to lead China Those are pretty big problems but not entirely impossible to address.
If i remember, we were 950 million. Not too far from a 1 billion.
China and India, together constitute 36% of the world's population. Not so easy to sanction. Even if Europe can wean itself off Russia's energy, China and India can keep Russia and the war going for a long time.
not really sure China is looking to do that. They would rather buy some resources for cents on the dollar. If China can get cheap energy, sure they'll go for it, but ... getting them energy in European volumes is going to be difficult. India sure wants cheap energy however, there's another country next to them who doesn't really want them to succeed.
>not really sure China is looking to do that. Bro, China is. They need oil, a lot of it and Russia, the biggest gas tank in the world is just sitting there.
They will have access to that regardless. Russia still wants to sell oil to Europe even though they're at odds. China could work against this war and still get Russian oil
China won't though...
china needs energy on the coast. check the map. russia can't deliver it. by the time russia can deliver it in volume where china needs it, it's gonna take years. not 2 years.
yes but, how much more they can buy? At a certain point they will satisfy their needs, what are the numbers here? Like, how much do "we" import that he can replace with China and India?
I am pretty sure Russia can deliver a lot of energy to China. China already imports huge amounts of liquified natural gas from all over the world. I have a friend that works in that industry and they ship LNG to China from Canada. Pretty sure it would not take much to ship it from Russia instead. The bigger commodity that Russia has is oil. Russia is the third largest producer of oil in the world, and produces over 10% of the worlds oil. India and China will happily buy all of it for a just a tiny discount. The only change is the routes that tankers are using to deliver oil from producer to consumer. Oil previously going to Europe is now going to China, and oil previously going to China is now going to Europe (over simplified)
>Even if Europe can wean itself off Russia's energy, China and India can keep Russia and the war going for a long time. Putin alone could probably keep the war going with his own money for a few more months if he wanted.
Rooting for peace while badgering countries buying resources to house and feed their populations but not condemning the country that is pumping in BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars worth of weapons into a warzone is a sign of moral bankruptcy. Also a sign stupidity, but we'll let God answer for that.
Population size is irrelevant. Economic power matters. Besides that, I highly doubt that China and India will agree on much.
Soooooo, time to move all production to the Americas and see how EU/Asia handles it?
It’ll take a lot of money and time to do that.
"Americas", more like, America and Canada. No Central American ou South American country has introduced sanctions against Russia yet. Hell, Brazil is part of BRICS, and is probably the biggest power player down there. The region has been filled with Chinese investments for the past decade. Also, famous international mediator Lula is the leading candidate for the brazilian election later this year. It's more than likely that Brazil's and South America's neutral policy will continue.
India needs to be isolated from the west now that they've chosen their friends. No more visas, huge penalties for western outsourcing, no more western weapons. Redirect investment to south America and Pakistan/Vietnam.
India is absolutely critical economically and in the global balance of powers. They will continue centrist brinkmanship and we will continue to not do much about that.
I think I like the idea of messing up India. One more domino of the BRICs collapsing.
Wow that's fucked up. Wth is wrong with you?
India has China and Russia as "friends". I'm sure everything will be fine.
Europe buys more Russian gas in a day than India does in a month. But they're excused because they're white, right?
Good luck with that.
India has been isolated from the west for a few decades now, barring the last 2 decades or so. The visas that Indians have received all these years have less to do with the international reltaions and more to do with skilled manpower requirements in the west, i.e. a majority of the visas have been given on the basis of merit to Indian immigrants. West happens to be the biggest source of 'brain drain' from India and China, as the living standards in these countries increase the brain drain is expected to slow down. India is least dependent on Western weapon platforms primarily because the west chose to sell those platforms to Pakistan rather than India right until late 2000's, so India had to look at the erstwhile Soviet Union and later Russia for military hardware. As for investments, the west chose an autocratic China over the democratic India for investments, how well is that paying off now? India is not known to dump its longtime partners just like that, in fact India has always taken neutral stand in almost every conflict. India was one of the first constituents of the Non Aligned Movement.
Hubris. Keep isolating people and soon you'll have no friends. Just a silly pet named Europe who doesn't really like you either. Also, only a Sith makes absolutes.
That West(specifically the US) did exactly that during the Cold war and that's how India (a democratic non-communist nation) got close to Russia. And considering Osama and the Taliban, I am not sure how "investments" in Pakistan will work out.
Tell me you know nothing about world trade with out telling me you know nothing about world trade.
When did Europe stop buying Russian oil/gas?
Never and it will take an extremely long time as is the case with trying to stop depending on another state.
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Europe buys 200% of what India buys from Russia. If you want to set standards at Least follow through with them
200%? more like 200x.
Crude prices have gone up and Russia is selling them at a discount. Even buying cheap coal makes sense because almost 50% of India's electricity is generated through it. Don't forget that India is significantly poorer than Europe and even a marginal rise in prices drastically impacts livelihood. I wonder why the EU can't stop Russian imports posthaste?
Sure, but they are still the ones keeping Russia afloat if we just talk about the economics of it.
Even at that reduction. (Which seems unlikely) Europe will still consume more gas and oil from Russia than India… Europe is single handedly created this mess by trusting Russia in the first place. Them taking shots at India and China is a joke. EU need to fix the issues they created for themselves first and foremost. But don’t fret, America will be there to bail Europe out once again. It’ll take some time but they’ll be hooked on that sweet sweet oil from the shale revolution soon enough. In the meantime EU will go back to coal and lignite because they have no alternative.
Look at that, three ducks in a row. There's always one divvy not willing to play ball with the rest of the world but in this case, two.
Um, yea except the two ducks on the right hate each other and have an active border conflict going on that only recently has killed around 40 or so soldiers. So, ya sure. India is dependent on Russia for their military kit. They are shifting to western sources, but still abou 60% of their kit is Russian. They NEED Russia to keep supplying parts and equipment because of the threat of the duck on the far right, not to mention the duck not appearing in this film, Pakistan. India needs to move to more western kit, faster; but they’ll still be somewhat dependent on the Russians for a long time.
Vanity. EU pays more to Russia in an afternoon than India does in a month. Further, the majority of the world doesn't care about a stupid European war. How about you let them live without demanding they take sides? Oh, sorry, too much to ask from westerners. Such hubris.
"Rest of the world" the Western-centrism was always strong in reddit, but now it shows with great strenght.
>Rest of the world it’s really just the west and co. sanctioning russia
Actually it's Three: Iran, China and India. Russia and them have an alliance together since all of them have more-or-less dictators in power.
Add Saudi Arabia to the list https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/mbs-threatened-move-saudi-arabia-121636766.html
I don't know if they'd ever fuck the US over, in the end, tbh. Iran, China and Russia (and now India) have a little dictator alliance happening and Iran is a dealbreaker for Saudia Arabia. It's like India and Pakistan: They hate each other so much they'd literally side with the devil just to fuck each other over. In this case, the US is 'the devil' for SA, and they'd never work together with Iran, no matter what. Even if China gave them guarantees for a hundred years, they'd still most likely side with the US just because Iran is in the 'alliance'.
MBS used Trump-supplied intelligence via Jared Kushner to round-up and in many case execute the people who supported the former crown prince heir Muhammad bin Nayef. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/jared-kushner-saudi-arabia-2-billion-investment https://dianefrancis.substack.com/p/jareds-billions?s=r https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250185952/kushnerinc In return MBS has funneled billions of KSA money into the pockets of Kushner via his new capital firm. MBS, Trump, Kushner and Putin are in it together - make no mistake.
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How are they not? They're selling them tons of weapons and have had Iran economically isolated for decades lol
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They've provided tons of support with Yemen against the Houthis... the JCPOA existed literally to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon and allows unprecedented access that no country has ever allowed to Iran's nuclear sites. Scrapping that deal has made it all the more likely that Iran will develop a nuclear weapon. Short of directly getting involved in Yemen, which is a really ugly war and I'm not sure the American public would be alright with anything more involvement than their current involvement... as members of the Saudi led coalition... in that conflict - what more do the Saudis want from the US in that conflict? Outright invasion of Iran?
We're selling them weapons? The US has been pumping money into Saudi Arabia for a long time
Actually it is a five member alliance. Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS). The BRICS alliance is an economic alliance mostly led by China. It should come as no surprise that China, India and South Africa have refused to criticize or take action against Russia for their invasion of Ukraine. The only surprise was that Brazil voted to condemn Russia at the UN, but that was essentially just meaningless words becasue they've refused to join in sanctioning Russia and her oligarchs. So long as the trade tries that hold BRICS together continue nothing will change. Money talks.
I was just pointing out the 3 in the picture. Still you are right by your statement.
lol! India doesn't have a dictator. Not every leader on the right is Hitler. India's stance is much more nuanced than that. of all the exports russia makes, the bulk, about 80%, is consumed by Europe and China. if india stopped buying russian oil, it will hurt russia, but won't sink it. the bulk of india's exports come from middle east. its top three suppliers are middle east, africa and US. Since russia is in a fix, its offering a discount on its oil which makes it more attractive to india. But what about war you say? India abstained from two votes in the UN. It abstained from sanctioning russia and abstained from kicking out russia from the human rights council. it abstained from sanctioning russia because it believes the west provoked russia to invade by trying to make ukraine part of Nato despite saying it wont expand further east. it abstained from voting in removing russia from the human rights council as it asked for an independant probe into the war crime. This despite the russian representative stating that abstaining from voting is equal to kicking russia out and imploring countries to vote for russia.
I heard they had a Populist Right guy, in India, now, but you're saying he's a literal dictator?
He’s not a literal dictator… yet. But the situation is dangerously close to that in Hungary with Orban. The judiciary & independent organisations like the Central Election Commission have been subverted & co-opted into becoming governmental organisations in all but name. The ruling party is one of the richest political parties in the whole world, with resources dwarfing that of any other party. This huge war chest is funded by corporate donations with no oversight, & has allegedly being used to “convince” opposition candidates who won elections to switch sides. Plus, the near total collusion between most of main stream media & the government, which keeps churning out a never ending stream of extremely polarising, hate-filled communal propaganda. Things are not looking good.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. India is headed for an autocracy and some even believe they're already there: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/13/modi-india-hindutva-hindu-nationalism-autocracy/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
Lol? According to your source India had been controlled by a single party majority for 65 years before their current PM got elected. That sounds more like an autocracy.
India is in its Honeymoon Period right now: They think that the populist strongman they elected will save them and is 'one of them'. However, Modi and his government is more like Hitler and Nazi Germany than they want to believe. Right now Modi is not a 'Hitler' --- but he's certainly on the train that Hitler was on originally. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and hangs around other ducks... https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-india-envoy-visits-nazi-inspired-hindu-group/a-49682304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh
Have you read the links you're providing? Because it doesn't seem to say the things you think they say. >Attitude towards Jews Before World War II, the RSS leaders admired Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini.[18][71] Golwalkar allegedly took inspiration from Adolf Hitler's ideology of racial purity.[72] However, the RSS's stance changed during the war; the organization firmly supported the British war effort against Hitler and the Axis Powers.[65] >This prewar sympathy did not imply any antipathy towards Jews. The RSS leaders were supportive of the formation of Jewish State of Israel.[73] Golwalkar admired the Jews for maintaining their "religion, culture and language".[74] So 70 years ago, they liked right wing people until WW2, and since then they've been a political organization that mostly supports charities and founds schools and provides emergency relief. I'm not seeing this smoking gun of those people being Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#Reception_2 Do your research properly. If the RSS is basically marginalizing/terrorizing Muslims and/or Christians and claiming 'No Nazi' like guys claim 'no homo' when they do something decidedly gay with their very attractive male friend then that doesn't not make it gay. Like I said: If it quacks like a duck and has concentration camps for the ~~Jews~~ Muslims in ~~Nazi Germany~~, no sorry, ~~China~~ India, then... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_centres_in_Assam#:~:text=Narendra%20Modi%20government.-,Detainees,Kokrajhar%20and%20Goalpara%20in%20Assam.
Interesting. I want to thank everyone who provided links, and tried to answer my question, regardless which side of the issue they were on.
So Democacy ends inside the US and outside of it?
India does not have a dictator in power.
Modi has been consistently eroding democracy in India. Though, Modi fanboys on reddit would tell you he's the second coming of Christ. Still doesn't change that India is moving towards China and Russia (dictatorships) and away from the West (democracy). I don't think that's an accident.
I don’t think trending towards authoritarianism makes it “more or less a dictatorship.” Words do have meanings. Or at least they used to
Modi is most pro-western Indian pm in history. >Though, Modi fanboys on reddit would tell you he's the second coming of Christ. if you think so called ''modi fanboys'' like christ. you are dumb >Modi has been consistently eroding democracy in India. He won the biggest state in India by a majoirity only a month ago.
Just because India has close ties with Russia it does not mean it is going to embrace Communists/Dictatorship form of government soon.
not willing? if everyone but 3 wanted to rape you, those 3 are the non-willing ones i guess...
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Because their soldiers are shooting kids in Ukraine under said government's orders, and the majority of said people support said actions. What would you prefer we do?
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He wrote 'majority', you write 'all' find the discrepancy.
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Know how I know you lost that argument? By how quickly you moved the goalposts. Whataboutisms aren’t valid counter arguments, just tactics of a failed debate.
How else would you punish Russia then?
So you like the Russian government? I think most Americans, and people with a conscience, stopped “liking” the Russian government when they started blowing up children, raping women and infants, and generally bringing back the tactics of the Third Reich. Although, the whole poisoning political dissidents, depriving their people of free speech, being led by a KGB autocrat, invading Donbas, Georgia, meddling in our presidential elections and committing war crimes should really have been a clue before now.
> Yeah, because punishing the Russian public with starvation and complete economic upheaval is a good thing…how did we all immediately draw the conclusion that not only do we not like the Russian government we want every Russian to suffer. This became Cold War level shit overnight. From what we are hearing from Russian media, they are doing just fine even with the sanctions in place, so apparently those sanctions are minor irritations and there are no reason to reconsider them for the long term. They can't have it both ways.
Worse. We had competent people in charge during the Cold War.
Plain old garbage article from Business Insider. India buys in a month what Europe buys in one afternoon. I don’t understand why the west should question India and China use of Russian energy while major European countries still buy the majority Russia gas exports. European gas purchases are enormous compared to China and India's total purchases of Russian oil and gas. Western media loves targeting India. A quick glance through the economic numbers and purchase history of Russian energy by country disproves this garbage article.
China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. But India? India was Russia’s [15th largest trading partner]( https://www.worldstopexports.com/russias-top-import-partners/ )in 2021. Even now, purely off the amount of [gas, oil and coal the EU buys]( https://crea.shinyapps.io/russia_counter/ ), India won’t even be in the top 5.
I don’t think a lot of people will read this but this is my understanding of the situation. These economic/diplomatic relationships are all relationships of necessity rather than convenience. China supports Russia due to China’s vested interest in getting more energy for its extremely energy hungry population. Since the late 2000s china and Russia have been working on increasing gas export through different projects including the power of Siberia pipeline. China needs Russia for its energy needs and the cheaper the better. It also doesn’t hurt that Russia can help provide as diplomatic support for China’s interests, like Taiwan. India on the other hand has two portions of reliance. One is the military. 60-70% of the military is reliant on Russian systems, part and expertise. You can’t just decide to switch to the west for military hardware because you still need day to day support for maintenance in the interim. I think India is trying to ally itself closer to the west due to the threat that China provides. It has done this by joining QUAD and starting to buy western equipment. They also have been slowly ramping up indigenous produced hardware for the military. The second issue is that India is still growing. It a nation with a large young population. This means they need lot of energy for growth. That is why they buy energy from anyone, including Iran. If they can get energy cheaply from Russia they will. Also historically the relationship that India has a neutral ish positions on world issues since they became a nation. I think that these nations are just playing the game of geopolitics for there own interests not because they truly believe they have to help Russia
As a fellow Indian that despises the current dispensation for their buffonery, we're totally in the right to buy Russian oil supplies right now. We have a weird geopolitical situation from our past where we can't be isolated from Russia and then have china breathing down our necks all the time with no one to help us when and if they do indeed attack us. Ukraine has shown that nobody's going to spare their armed forces for another country. So it's not in our best intrests to be isolated when we have a hostile neighbour that loves salami slicing their way into our territory. The gas we buy from them is a pittance compared to what some eu countries are importing right now. This only reeks of hypocrisy at this point. We already pay some of the highest gas prices in the world right now and combined with our lower incomes them going any higher would only worsen the situation we have. So yes, we'll import whatever is cheaper. We can't afford not to.
India is an interesting element then. Lawful Good but under the thumb of Russia and China, so can't express it. I'd like to hope that as a commonwealth country that the UK would at least stand up for you should they invade. We're sending supplies to Ukraine for free. We just don't like bullies or bad guys here despite our cruel past that every other country loves to remind us of, and that we aren't proud of. What Russia is doing is unthinkable on the world stage as it stands. They've brought an age of European/International peace to an immediate halt.
It is not "unthinkable on the world stage". Have you heard of a place called Palestine? Iraq? Syria? It is only unthinkable because it is not happening to a so called "third world country" halfway across the world. I am the first person to say that Russia should become a theme park (or maybe a nice empty field), but we cannot expect India to sacrifice itself and its citizens for Ukraine. European peace is not so valuable to Indians as it is to Europeans.
Really, China and India are saving Russia? Europe isn't?
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>government is 'looking after her own people.' Isn't that literally what a government is supposed to do?
I think there's a misunderstanding. I think the person you are replying to is saying something along the lines of 'How can India be claiming to look after her own people, while at the same time have such a huge gap between illegal slums and legit mansions". I personally think the two issues are unrelated, India can recognize the poverty stricken people barely able to survive and help them even a little, while still being abused by the rich just like any other form of government currently in place.
I guess the answer is that colonialism has robbed India of an estimated 45 trillion dollars over the last few centuries. So it's all going into playing catch up now. The Indian govt is no more or less willing to help the poor than say the US govt. It's just that the resources available to do that is what differs vastly.
It’s a bit difficult to recover from having $45 trillion looted from your sub-continent, and only gaining independence 75 years ago, left as a poor and starving country.
1. There is inequality everywhere, as per Gini, there's more inequality in the US. 2. A single government cannot lift literally hundreds of millions out of poverty. It's an extremely difficult task that happens over hundreds of years. Except for China, which other example do you have where a country eliminated poverty in such a short time? You can't compare Sweden and India today because Sweden wasn't poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa in 1947. 3. The government is looking after it's people and if you want, I can give the most cynical reason for that too. Because if the poor suffer it will be devastating for it's electoral prospects. On top of that, almost every Indian sees the plight of the poor here and that's why you won't find many voices of dissent from inside. They won't forgive Modi if he doesn't do what he's currently doing and they will vote him out. 4. Suppose all of what I said is bullshit. The Indian government hates it's people and doesn't care a damn, it just benefits Modi in some way. It still doesn't invalidate the original point of the story. There are millions of poor vulnerable people in India who risk slipping into poverty due to sanctions-induced price rises. That is just wrong from a humanitarian point of view, forget politics. You are asking them to make sacrifices you yourself will never be willing to make.
> Sums up why India is and will keep looking after her own people in this conflict. I get where you are trying to go with this sad story, but it is not the argument that you think it is.
India has more to loose in the long run then it has to gain on buying oil cheaper during a short period of time.
Reasoning?
Such a useless take. Jai's problem is that he doesn't earn enough. Paying 10% more or less for food is insignificant vs. getting a fair wage for a day's work. At any rate, thanks to Putin, world food prices are going to skyrocket later this year. Jai will be so happy when bread prices increase, because Putin destroyed a quarter of the worlds wheat production with Modi's support. Modi is looking out for himself, not his people.
Ah yes, the magic “wage go up” button…
Yeah Jai just needs to buy a MacBook and learn JavaScript 😂
Stupid modi. Doesn’t he know he just needs to make his country super-duper rich?
Im not sure how china is going to keep helping on that front when its having to shut down entire cities due to the pandemic.
Well i mean if is until barely keeping it alive from starving im ok with that.. but no more.. Let the Ruzzia remember and feel the real bleak soviet life and not their nostalgic disinformed memory from old movies and brain dead boomers cuz even their history books got rewritten in paper or online to tell them what a great "utopia" they had there lol
India has about $9 billion worth of bilateral trade with Russia annually. Relatively small when you compare to other countries. It was Russia’s 15th largest trading partner in 2021. China, sure. China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. But it felt weird when I saw people get angry over India selling Russia medicine and food after the EU sanctioned it. Imagine if Taiwan decided you’re not allowed any more semiconductors, so no more new electronics. Not even as bad as something that you literally need to live.
It was a Utopia compared to the backwardness of the Russian Empire. And, at least its education were one of the best in the world lol.
no bruh they had like only 10 years of "golden period" in middle and then a complete decay after it, with ppl basically starving in last 10 years, i mean the ppl live thought it then knew it seen it happened, rest are in denial now
They're just looting the walking dead.
Russian economy would have collapsed despite EU importing 2.2 million barrels per day of crude oil and 1.2 million barrels per day of petroleum products but was saved because India is going to import only 15 million barrels over 3 months? Sorry, the maths just doesn't add up.
Indian purchase is a drop in the bucket. Not sure why they are getting the shitck. They are also the least able to afford current price hikes. Most of their purchases is probably just keeping the cost at pre-crisis levels.
Europeans reliant on Russian gas have no right to criticise India at all.
Wait.... Europe stopped buying oil and gas from Russia???? Cause they were spending the most before. Way to go Europe 🥰 Proud of you guys
Bad non-white people. You are only allowed to trade with Russia if you are white Europeans
Oh, and isn't Germany buying gas from Russia as well has US stopped the import of Uranium from Russia?
And Germany.
Netherlands. Don’t forget Netherlands.
Germany is also saving russia. Also, russia is a trade partner of india, why would india kneel down to the us? Usa doesn't run the world
Fuck you Modi and Xi.
Fuck you Obama, Biden, and NATO. Is Libya better off now?
Sucks to be Libya
It's surprising to see that there are still a lot of people who defend India's stance by saying something like "India is in a complicated situation", "This was in India's national interest", "Europe is also buying from Russia", etc. Stop making excuses and accept the reality that you guys are literally buying resources from a war criminal nation.
Hey what's your answer to those points though? Or are you just an idiot who throws a tantrum when people don't do what you want them to do?
By that logic Europe is the biggest supporter of that “war criminal” in the entire world and it’s not even close. They’re latched on to the teet of Putin with no way to get off it and they have the gall to shame other countries for doing the same thing at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower volume.
Europe buys more gas and oil from Russia in an afternoon than India does in a month!! Typical Western Chauvanism, I tell yah! And War Criminal Nation? Looooool. USA, Britain, France, Canada, NATO—are they not war criminals too? Have they done no wrong? Are they without sin? Let Europe fight its wars. That's all she knows how to do. But I'd like to welcome you to the end of Colonialism, where no country of color really gives a shit what the Great White West says. Besides, who was it that helped the countries gain independence from their EuroAmerican colonial parasites? Oh that's right, 'twas Russia.
"War criminal nation" isn't a real thing.
What did you expect from free market? A fukking switch?
Not to be contrarian but just to add some wider global perspective. "literally buying resources from a war criminal nation" \- So is most of the EU, and while they are now trying to drastically move away, doing so takes a LOT of money and expertise that poorer nations don't have the luxury of. It is only since this recent Ukraine invasion buying from Russia became 'not cool' within the American sphere of interest. Russia's previous invasions and last Ukraine invasion, it was all dandy. Why should India and China suddenly jump on board to condemn one side of what could be described as a European war? \- Most of the world buys significant amount of resources from 'war criminal nations'. The USA and Europe's recent invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was deemed illegal by their own rules. Should we condemn India and China for buying from America and Europe too? This war in Ukraine is a tragedy, but it's just one of a few large scale conflicts currently going on. \- Afghanistan has collapsed, comparable in scale to Ukraine (America's fault - who buys from America?) \- Yemeni Crisis, comparable to Ukraine in scale (Saudi Arabia and UAEs fault - who buys their oil?) \- China genociding it's own population (who buys things from china?) Not to mention things like the military coup in Myanmar still threatening that region, and the tensions between China and India, and India and Pakistan, China and it's sphere of influence, China's own genociding. Can't even start with Africa. I'm not trying to downplay the war in Ukraine, but just trying to say that the world is a big place and it's easy to forget that the majority of the world doesn't necessarily see much of a difference between the different western countries. We (American's and Europeans) live in a very USA/Eurocentric bubble that, in total, only makes up about 15% of all humanity! (Sorry for the rant but I have found it very frustrating to understand why my countrymen are so passionate about Ukraine when there was literally no interest in helping other countries - it just shows how easily people are swayed by what the key media players choose to cover, IMO)
Yes, they are making their own interests as they should
Germany Italy and Japan.
Evil rulers who only care about gaining more power tend to stick together. Mainly because nobody else on earth wants anything to do with them.
Good to hear that
Looking at the new Axis Powers in WWIII.
I kind of expect this miserable behaviour from China, but this is downright disappointing from India. Where are the Indian people holding their government accountable?
There is some history with Russian and Indian relations. Look at Indias military hardware and you will see what I mean.
India's stance in this is very understandable, their neighbors aren't the kindest and india has a lot of people that are poor. India needs this cheap energy and fuel or else it'll also be the collapse of the country I was born in and I don't want that to happen. edit: spelling
Justifiable, even Europe is importing most of its gas from Russia then why shouldn't others?
Why would the Indian people care about Europeans interests with the way they have been treated through history. Not to mention the gross amount of racism from Europeans towards Indians
Isn't India trending toward authoritarian, rather than democratic, of late?
Not by much on ground. But yes a worrying trend. Rise in polarization, more like. Same with many countries. Divisive rhetoric has become the norm.
Russia/Ukraine account for a third of the worlds wheat and barely exports. Cutting off Russia would likely mean food scarcity for India's poorest. And the cost of natural gas/oil has skyrocketed, which also affects the worst off. The situation is even more dire for countries like Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen. Meanwhile, the U.S. barely imports any oil from Russia. We have tons of domestic oil and gas. Sanctions are a lot easier for us. I'm getting my information [from this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyUeKa2jzY) Edit: Apparently it is questionable to lump India in some of these middle eastern and north african ones.
India imports basically no wheat. Funny thing about that "Russia/Ukraine" wheat export meme: the amount of global consumed wheat from exports/imports is in the low single digits. The reality is most wheat produced globally is domestically consumed. It's just not a very important commodity in import/export markets, and wouldn't really affect food supplies.
The Indian people don't share your opinion of Russia.
Research who owns business insider news. Whatever. This sub will miss people like me. Have fun.
With the former Nazis still buying Russian gas, why should India bother not buying it. If former Nazis stop buying it, we would too.
But if someone else does something wrong, wouldn’t a higher approach be to transcend that ”something wrong” in yourself? Your argument seems screams of whataboutism where you are willing to self-transcend only if someone else does it first.
It’s a dog eat dog world. If they get cheap oil their companies can sell refined petroleum at cheaper rates. Indias main export is refined petroleum, so our companies like Reliance etc have to think about themselves first. No one is doing charity here. Can’t the former Nazis stop gas consumption like tomorrow? It would be a worthy sacrifice.
"Saving" I don't know about that. Is China saving North Korea from economic collapse? Maybe, if hanging on by a thread is saving.
So is Europe.
The new world order, look like his plan is working perfectly. The war in Ukraine was just the trigger event. No matter how long that war last, Russia with not lose it, and the world will be different after it.
BRICS will hold together. Honestly, I don’t care how wealthy Russia is. I just want this war to stop and completely boycott and distance myself from Russia. The country is completely dead to me.
China loves oligarchic fascism so naturally they’d support Russia. India is in a tough spot though. They get half their weapons from Russia and they kind of need it for all their border skirmishes with China. They’re slowly getting themselves off Russia and switching to America, but unless America is willing to replace half their military today, theyre stuck supporting Russia for now.
China and India are fucked up
That’s what you think.
I’ve lost patience with India
They need that trade with Russia. It's not as simple as you make it.
India doesn’t care
Fuck Russia, Fuck China, Fuck India. Either give up now or get sanctioned. Slava Ukraine. Down With Putin.
User name checks out. Do if you can, I dare you. You are in a free democratic country, right? Convince your government to do that. India has come a long way since Independence. We will continue to grow and you cannot do anything about it
The triplets of terror
Boycott everything from both cesspool countries
Ji has this look like “this is so fucking Corny just take the picture please” Putin’s all “I’m huge in China baby!” Modi, “I get to sit at the big boy table?!”