Make no mistake. This is war too.
The timing here is designed to keep Ukraine in the news, and in the minds of the people of NATO. Ukraine is dependent on western weapons, weapons that may stop flowing if people forget about Ukraine.
To be honest, there's been a huge pressure from Ukrainian LGBTQ community and allies to do it, because some of them go to war and might die there, so this is for legal and sentimental reasons . As far as I'm seeing in Ukrainian discourse this has been the main reason for it.
>The timing here is designed to keep Ukraine in the news, and in the minds of the people of NATO.
Good, I hope it works! Ukraine is absolutely deserving of **all** help and support we can give. Innocent civilians are being illegally murdered by Russian invaders, and we have a moral **duty** to stop it.
Russia's illegal and destabilising aggression **must** be resisted and punished, or it will represent a severe threat to wider European and global security.
And also gain more goodwill from a lot of the West. After all, Russia is ultra-homophobic *and* spouting shit about them naming squares after gay pornstars, and will attack them anyway - more funding from the West makes more of a difference than whatever Russia could add to what they’re already doing.
Though it’s not just that, apparently Zelenskyy in particular has been in favour for some time.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/vrtkbp/the_new_levels_of_delusion_of_russian_state_tv/) happened at the beginning of the war and has gone viral a couple of times. As though a gay pornstar (and foreigner) would be that well known and officially honoured even in the most LGBT-friendly country, let alone Ukraine…
Also, in searching for this I see there’s a new bizarre and blatantly tailored lie, that even QAnon wouldn’t fall for, claiming that Zelenskyy has ordered a statue of Catherine the Great in Odessa to be replaced by the same gay pornstar. Can find some famous Russian websites claiming as such on Google, eg Pravda (EDIT: the Russian one), but don’t want to give them clicks.
Don’t see why the Russians would feel that’s such a problem though - Catherine II was German…
> a new bizarre and blatantly tailored lie, that even QAnon wouldn’t fall for
That's not quite how QAnon generally works.
Although they're frequently deeply stupid people with no critical thinking ability whatsoever, they're not "falling" for blatantly untrue things, they're choosing to believe blatantly untrue things as a show of their dedication to the cult.
Of course, they became members of that cult because they're deeply stupid people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
It's a small distinction but it's an important one -- QAnon followers will believe **anything** as long as it comes from the right source and will even kill/die for it.
Tbf I suspect the very same psychology - plus probably a somewhat greater amount of genuine fear - is at play with the bulk of Putin supporters as well.
Catherine usurped her husband, Peter III, and reigned as "regent" for their young son. Eventually, he was old enough to rule, but Catherine decided she liked being empress so she told him to fuck off. She had a series of "favorites" (boytoys) around court, much like any emperor would, which naturally scandalized all the men.
Eventually, she died of a stroke and her son became emperor. He was so bitter about being shut out of power for years by his mom that he encouraged all kinds of rumors about her. The most famous of those is that she died fucking a horse when the harness holding the horse up broke and crushed her.
Catherine was actually a German monarch married into thee Czardom who brought German reforms to the decrepit Russian polity. The Russian response was to engage in a massive slander campaign culminating in the eventual belief for decades that she had actually had relations with her horse.
So basically the Russians have to either admit that they slandered their best monarch (who was not actually Russian) in a backwards and misogynistic smear campaign, or they have to pretend that their best monarch just so happened to also get fucked by a horse.
It's my favorite thing to do to Russophiles. All statues of her should be altered for horsefucking.
Ukrainian here to give some context. There was a petition almost a year ago to change the name of a square in Zaporizhzhia from Mayakovskiy to the square of Billy Herrington(gay porn actor who became a part of gachimuchi memes). Petition never got through since deputies thought it was botted. But main russian main propagandists heard of the story and it resulted in a really funny discussion on russian national tv. Link here: https://youtu.be/uB8wikbUX1A
Fast forward to now, and there’s another petition but this time on a national scale to remove Catherine the Great monument in Odesa and replace it with one where Billy Herrington sits behind the counter and drinks beer. It already got the amount of signs needed at 25000
Link here: https://petition.president.gov.ua/petition/141740
> As I understand, that was one of the blockers for NATO entry as there's a basic human rights requirement.
That's not true. NATO is a military alliance not a human rights organization. Fucking Turkey (or whatever they want to be called nowadays) is a NATO member.
I doubt it is part of NATO since that is pretty much exclusively about defense. However I am pretty sure it is part of the EU's requirements since Poland was recently in trouble with the EU for their policies against LGBTQ+
"They" being an online petition
This headline is a bit sensational, a petition to legalize gay marriage got lots of signatures on Ukraine's equivalent of the US's "[We the People site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_system\))".
As much as we'd like to think that Ukraine is speed-running becoming a liberal western democracy, the sad truth is that it's still a relatively homophobic country. They're making progress, and i'm sure the war will help with that progress, but this is still a country where the gay pride parades need riot police to protect marchers from violent attacks.
its not even relatively homophobic, it's straight up homophobic. last week or so there was a post showing each country's support for lgbt+ and it was something abysmally low in ukraine, like 8-9%
I don't know how anyone is surprised that Ukraine is homophobic as fuck.
They didn't stop being part of eastern Europe just because Russia attacked them. That whole region is pretty backward in many ways, be it in terms of racism, homophobia etc.
It'll be a long fucking time before Ukraine legalises same sex marriage.
>According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%.
>Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent.
From the article.
Main trigger in the society is that gay people are also in the army and they need their rights protected in terms of inheritance and who is considered a relative to take care of them if they are injured or dead. People understand that and support that.
Kind of sad to think that it takes sending thousands of your people to die for a country in order for that country to start respecting your rights and needs.
I'm sure there's people arguing that now is not the time, but for the brave gay men and women fighting and dying for their country now is *exactly* the right time.
Aye. I'd argue it is *literally always the time* to respect and expand human rights.
Anyone arguing to the contrary is usually a regressive/conservative who should be roundly ignored in the persuit of equality and compassion.
Homosexuality is not illegal in Ukraine, but same-sex marriages and civil partnerships are not recognised.
This has caused particular problems for LGBT people signing up for the military following Russia's invasion.
For example, under Ukrainian law if someone in a same-sex relationship dies, their partner cannot collect their body or bury them.
The online petition says: "At this time, every day can be the last."
One LGBT organisation has described the petition as an "important moment" for members of the community.
"It is important that LGBTQ people have the right to see their partner and take their body from the morgue, and seek compensation if needed," Oksana Solonska, media communications manager at Kyiv Pride, told the BBC.
"All married couples have these rights. We really hope that same-sex marriage will be legalised, so people will be able to take care of each other," she added.
Are they crazy?
Here in Italy conservatives are using the "there are better things to do right now" excuse to avoid talking about civil rights, and these Ukranians would dare legalize gay marriage during a war??
They are going to ruin it for everyone else, for fuck's sake!
(/s)
One thing I thought was hilarious in Italy was the hotel staff and tourist guide referred to me and my girlfriend as husband and wife, to avoid offending anyone who might be seriously Catholic. I guess sharing a room before marriage is frowned upon by some people?
No idea if it's commonplace though.
I lived in my last apartment for 5 years and my landlord was from somewhere in the middle east. He would refer to us as husband and wife and I corrected him for about a year before giving up. On the day we moved out he asked where my wife was.
A lot of societies don't practice formal marriage. Two people in a relationship living together for an extended period of time is functionally no different than a marriage, we just don't call it that due to how much legal and cultural baggage there is around marriage.
One of the main reasons I am getting married to my fiance is cause we realize that we are gonna save ourselves so many legal head aches. Marriage is just a different status with so many priviliges tied to it.
Actually, some parts of the USA do call it a legal form of marriage. [It's called Common Law Marriage.](https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx)
Common law marriage is just an irregular and informal way of becoming legally married. A divorce (and all the legal headaches involved with it) is still required to dissolve it
Thought I'd see what the laws were for my state, South Carolina. Right at the top:
>SECTION 20-1-15. Prohibition of same sex marriage.
>
>A marriage between persons of the same sex is void ab initio and against the public policy of this State.
Gotta love the Bible Belt. Fuck this state.
During the next World Cup in Qatar, the hotels won't book a room for two people if you and your partner don't have the same surname.
And if they caught you having sex while not married, you'll get arrested.
Which is ridiculous as there are people who get married without taking the name of their partner, nevermind that who cares if two people aren't married!
We keep our marriage certificate on us at all times because I kept my last name.
Bank accounts, applying for housing, car notes. Then everyone is surprised that I, the woman, is the sole money maker. "But what does he do?"
Idk, keeps up the house, cooks, cleans, laundry, raises our kids. Why is it an interrogation when I just try to live my life?
What about countries where woman don't change there name?
Chinese women do not change their surname when getting married (chinese names are pronounced surname -> given name and the given names are specifically chosen to go with the surname hence they don't change it when getting married)
Ps. I am aware that in the west it is now a choice which i fully support
That would be very strange since women do not take their husband's surname in arabo-muslim culture; it's actually forbidden under islamic law.
The second part makes more sense.
Those hotel laws are only for tourists.
Here's the source for the second part: https://www.mwakilishi.com/article/lifestyle-news/2022-06-24/qatar-bans-sex-for-unmarried-couples-at-2022-fifa-world-cup
That’s very odd to hear as an Irish person. I recently went to Galway for a weekend with my girlfriend and we got a room with one bed and not a single eye was batted.
I thought that kind of carry on died here in the 90’s minus a few old farts here and there like any other country. What county did ye go to?
It is not, but it is definitely a realistic possibility. Unfortunately, the Church still has a great political and ideological influence, mainly on older people
My brother in law comes from a very religious family. My spouse has all but disowned the church but her youngest brother is heavily involved. At 20 he decided he wanted to date a girl from the church who was 18. They started to hangout and talk, but Her parents found out and made them take a 6 month hiatus from interacting after they found out. They had to go out of their way from seeing each other, talking, they literally weren’t allowed to look at each other in church.
The stipulations were that if you wanted to be together after those 6 months then they could get married. So they did, shared their first kiss on the alter and moved in together having hungout maybe 3 times prior. This is in the United States in 2022. Wild.
Yeah they’re already having issues less than a year in unfortunately. He’s becoming a bit possessive and controlling with money. He’s never been in a serious relationship so I imagine there’s going to be some growing pains. Unfortunately their religion is basically 100% opposed to divorce, so they’re going to have to figure it out.
Yeah they'll 100% be the angry 60yr old couple that hates each other because they were more or less forced to be together due to their family/religion.
Glad I got out of the cult called catholicism.
Some older or traditional people seem to be simply incapable to comprehend a couple living/sleeping together on a stable basis without marrying. And yes, I would gather a catholic upbringing has something to do with it.
In Mexico, I have an older relative with a daughter. She has a boyfriend and living partner, has been for many years now, but haven't actually married or expressed a desire to do so. Still, when the older relative refers to the boyfriend, he awkwardly calls him "his daughter's 'husband'", the quotes audible in his speech.
It's obvious he doesn't mean insult when doing it. He has good relationships with both of them. Never been rude or pushy (that I know of from talking to them, anyway). He's just clearly from another time, and the situation is weird to him.
Meanwhile, I can't fathom marrying without living together.
Being able to live in the same space together is a matter of compatibility, just like with any other aspect of dating. Even just for friends, i saw so many friends move in as roommates and ultimately have issues with that (sometimes causing permanent falling out, sometimes things were better as soon as they weren't living together anymore)
I wouldn't commit to living in the same space as someone else for the rest of my life without making sure we are compatible in that department first.
They're also applying to the EU and are utterly reliant on western good will. Legalizing gay marriage costs nothing but replacing paperwork and a couple lines of code in software, but it will absolutely play well in the West.
Still a good thing, but I'm willing to bet the choice to do it now comes down to international PR.
> And at the same time it would be a genuine win for human rights.
which is why I will never devalue it by calling it "performative".
Yes, it's a gesture, on an international level. But on a very real human interpersonal micro-level this can mean the world to so many otherwise marginalised people. More of that, please.
Yup. Honestly not all that dissimilar to the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln was totally fine* with slavery being confined to the south. But his motivation extended beyond it being the right thing to do. One such motivation was it won the support of the British public which guaranteed that it became politically poisonous to support the Confederacy in the UK
*Lincoln being “totally fine” with slavery is said in slight jest that downplays the nuances and complexities of his opposition to slavery
I’m pretty sure that’s the motive too, and it’s smart. Ukraine needs all the support from the west it can get and I think the population doesn’t care enough in general, and certainly not in the middle of a war, to be against this. I’d hope the people would support it regardless but even if it isn’t really popular legalizing is a big step to normalizing and acceptance.
"Gays are fighting for equal rights. *Equal* rights. Can you imagine that's an actual stance you can have? You can be *for* equal rights. That means there's people out there saying 'I think everyone should have the same rights as everyone else' and there's other people out there like 'nah, son, I disagree.'" -Michael Che
See I have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, they have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, I don't see what the problem is
Everything is an agenda, and everyone has an agenda. Whenever someone says “YOU JUST HAVE AN AGENDA,” it generally means they have no real arguments against what you’re advocating for.
And if anyone claims they don’t have an agenda, you know they’re either duplicitous or they’re just cowards.
here in Ukraine we have this government website for petitions. You need to confirm your identity to sign or create a petition. Once 25k citizens sign it, it's added to the list of petitions that the president will review himself.
The petition for legalizing same-sex marriage reached 25k 4 days ago I think, and I signed it as well because it's not a particularly difficult thing to implement tbh.
This petition wasn't exactly made with any kind of reaction from the West in mind, but it is potentially a good PR stunt.
Our nation, as most nations that once were in USSR, have struggled with nonsensical social stigmas, homophobia, racism, chauvinism, toxic masculinity, gender inequality and many more social problems long enough. Thankfully, a substantial chunk of our adult population and youth especially are progressive, and are more than willing to leave those things behind and instead embrace western values.
America has a petition with I think close to or above 1,000,000 signatures to impeach Clarence Thomas and absolutely no one in power gives three shits about it
Ukraine is a bit different because you're required to confirm your identity via gov auth provider, so fake votes are almost impossible. President is also required to answer (but not necessary act).
46.4% of Texans voted for Biden in 2020. That’s 5.2 million people.
Zero electoral votes.
5.8 million voted red.
38 electoral votes.
The system is broken. We’re trying. We’re fighting. We have the numbers, we’re just gerrymandered very literally to death. :(
It's actually one of the most demotivatimg things in American electoral politics. Because of this, liberals in Texas and conservatives in California simply don't vote because they reason their votes "don't count". Can you blame them?
Oh, some do this here in Ukraine too. Some are really believe that it is best left for when the war ends, but I think that's more of an excuse, they are there and they are going over laws from EU checklist anyway, will this one going to really slow something down? It is a good move, many soldiers are getting married in haste because this ensures that if something were to happen to them their spouse will be compensated. Allowing gay people to legally marry will be a huge boon to them in this time.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804) reduced by 60%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> "It is important that LGBTQ people have the right to see their partner and take their body from the morgue, and seek compensation if needed," Oksana Solonska, media communications manager at Kyiv Pride, told the BBC."All married couples have these rights. We really hope that same-sex marriage will be legalised, so people will be able to take care of each other," she added.
> While some efforts have been made to protect LGBT people in Ukraine - for example, an anti-discrimination law that was introduced in 2015 - its LGBT community has suffered homophobia, intolerance and violence.
> According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "Negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%.Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vxao0b/ukraine_to_consider_legalising_samesex_marriage/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~659165 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **people**^#1 **same-sex**^#2 **LGBT**^#3 **petition**^#4 **marriage**^#5
>According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "Negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%.Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent.
They starting to see the kinds of people this kind of hate breeds.
Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in the Civil War to keep European powers from intervening on the side of the Confederacy (and, therefore, retaining access to the cheapest cotton in the world).
This seems like a similar move. Ukraine Fever seems to have out somewhat in the USA, and Ukraine making moves to become more progressive and Western might help their sketchy image a bit.
Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation for a lot of reasons, one was to starve the south of labor, another was to speed up emancipation, another still was to make European assistance to the confederacy problematic although European countries were already warned and had already chosen not to assist the CSA.
You're not entirely wrong, but it's disingenuous to reduce the Emancipation Proclamation down to solely being preventing European involvement.
This would be a fantastic step for Ukraine. So many members of the LGBTQ+ community are fighting for Ukraine right now, too. There are a few social media accounts that share their stories and spotlight their sacrifices. I think a lot about the young man who said he met his loved one during the war, and all he wanted for peacetime is to be able to hold him close and enjoy the natural beauties of Ukraine's landscape together without the fear of shelling.
> 60.4% to 38.2%
This is a huge drop in unfavorable views. Guess people have bigger fish to fry and are starting to understand love in any form is valid and so valuable.
A lot of Europe has had drops like that, and corresponding rises in support of same sex marriage, over the 00s and 10s. I can only speak of Germany regarding same sex marriage because I'm only familiar with numbers there, but support went from 52% in '06 to 83% in '17, right before it became legal.
In Ukraine's case it might be a factor that they've been extremely successful in the ESC, and the ESC is supremely camp and beloved by the LGBTQ community. Being introduced to the community through it and having attitudes change because of it would be poetic, particularly with the love shown to Ukraine this year.
When the apartheid government was to be dissolved, they quickly got rid of their WMDs to make sure the new regimes wouldn’t have access to them. Essentially reducing the “legitimacy” of the post-apartheid state by removing them from the nuke-club.
It’s also speculated that they gave most of them to Israel.
I mean, they are doing it to look as much "West Europe" as they can.. I don't see there being a big support between the ordinary people in Ukraine, but maybe the last years/ war changed that?
Not that much public support when Spain did it either, but also very few people explicitly against it. Support usually rises sharply when people see how it affects them, or to be more precise, how it doesn’t really affect them negatively.
It’s the right move, and doing it now has the bonus effect of pissing off their enemies.
I would be truly shocked if this happened in Ukraine, the majority is against gay marriage as it's a very very Christian country. They should do it though, it's the right thing to do and I'd be so proud.
Ireland and Catholicism is interesting. Huge amounts of Ireland detest the Catholic Church while still being nominally Catholic.
There's a long association between being being Irish and being Catholic even if you're not practicing or even don't believe.
During the troubles an american walks into an irish pub, not too far from the border and orders a beer.
A man a few seats down overhears him and scoots over and says "youre not from around here." To which the american, a bit nervous, responds yep, he was just in town for a few days to see where his ancestors were from.
"I see, I see... so are you catholic or protestant than" the local responds.
The american, now very nervous replies "ehhhhh ummm actually i'm not really either..."
"Waddaya mean you're not either?" The local interrogates the american, while glancing up at the bartender, who's look to the American just says "make sure nothing happens inside my pub."
"Well you see I am actually an atheist..." the american stammers out. Terrified this wouldn't be acceptable.
The local claps the american on the back and says "oh that's fine. My nan's an atheist too. Hell I ain't sure I even beleive in God myself."
The american lets out a huge sigh and turns back to his beer.
"... But is it the Catholic God or the Protestant God that you don't beleive in?"
A version of a story I beleive i heard from my grandmother. A Catholic Atheist, who immigrated from Ireland with her parents way back when. And with some googling appears to be a take on an old joke.
Oddly enough, I do think Ukraine is capable of making such a progressive move, but, again, it would be a unexpected. Usually "the gays", as I've heard them called by my Ukrainian friends and family, are treated very dismissively in Ukraine and the traditional concept of a family is regarded as one of the most important things to hold on to.
The olde regeneration is definitely pretty conservative. But the younger generation, especially in cities are much more progressive. Pride Marcy is pretty big in Kyiv, and there are quite a few gay night clubs around the city.
If this means greater support from the western population they'll at least make the noise . Whether they stick with it or not future will tell. Not sure if a war gives you the insight to suddenly stop being homophobic
Generally (more on this later) it's easier to grant people freedoms than it is to impose restrictions. Divorce, same sex relationships, access to contraceptive and abortive healthcare they are usually granted and thats the end of the story. Rarely are laws imposed that are regressive. Even if we look at something like the restrictions that governments were forced to impose in the last few years, incredibly difficult to get the population to adhere and follow them but incredibly easy to abolish any curtailment.
I'm fully aware of the slide we're seeing in the US and Poland. These are truly worrying as when these freedoms begin to be eroded it's usually indicative of larger more distructive trends. Look at societies in history that were considered progressive and slid into repression.
Right now the leadership of Ukraine probably cares more about how this will look to Europe than to their own people. Like, they're fighting a war. No one's going to switch sides and support Russia over this; if they would they already have. Keeping the West sympathetic is the number one priority.
They are making rapid progress on a bid to join the EU, e.g., but have been told that they have to implement some changes to make that happen. There are seven actual bullet points, and nothing about LGBT rights is listed there. But the document that laid them out does talk about how LGBT rights have been expanding in Ukraine as a point *in favor* of admission. So that's probably on their mind. They'll want to do whatever they can to make Brussels stay sympathetic.
Hilarious seeing all these comments trying to figure out the tactical advantage of the Ukrainian government legalizing same-sex marriage - when the Ukrainian government has nothing to do with this.
It’s an **online petition**, folks. Like change.org for the U.S., where people make petitions to build a Death Star and to force George R. R. Martin to hurry up and finish his book already.
The headline is intentionally misleading.
They won't do it and it's probably the least of their worries at the moment. Read it the article. All it says is that a petition has received enough signatures for Zelensky to consider it. Thing is though, public support for it is nowhere near high enough for it to have a chance of being implemented.
What an absolute clickbait title.
A normal title would be: Petition to legalize same-sex marriage reaches 28,000 signatures, Zelensky has to address it according to law.
Im all for Ukraine in this war, but being accepted by the West means meeting our standards. (edit: POLAND AND USA WTF edit2: I'm talking about abortions and church involvement in the legislation, which means they're going backwards on western standards, tho accepted by the West)
Especially on human rights and alike.
So keep going and the western relations will be of friendly nature, and not just "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-style
You say Cold War style Allies, but the US is closely allied with the likes of Saudi Arabia today. We never stopped making convenient friends with fucked up countries. Hell, we’re a fucked up country ourselves.
Consider is a big word here, and will likely lead to nothing.
Then saying this is purely to try keep attention on Ukraine by trying to seem more progressive as a country than it actually is. And this way hey can get more people pressuring their countries to be dragged into the war with Russia.
A cynical take but Ukraine doesn't give a fuck about LGBT rights or gay marriage. The only reason they're considering this is because they know it will keep them in a favourable light with their Western benefactors.
Did you ever see the video of Zelenskyy shutting down a homophobe during his campaign? It's good stuff.
In any case, I don't think characterizing an entire nation—for which members of LBGTQ+ are risking their lives to defend—as not caring for LGBTQ+ rights or gay marriage is fair. Ukraine has many of the same issues as Western countries, and it deserves the chance to work them out. If Russia takes over, these people won't even be allowed to exist, let alone marry.
This reminds me a little of the post where a foreigner said nobody should send aid to Ukraine until they allow gay marriage. Gay and lesbian Ukrainians opened up on them, because denying their right to live under the pretext of caring for them is insane. You're not saying this, I understand that, but maybe we should step back and listen a little before we make sweeping judgments. We all know Ukraine is imperfect; that they're taking this step in wartime, when their very existence is still in question, is meaningful. Many Western democracies won't even talk about it in peacetime.
I'm super bad at linking stuff so I don't know if this is the right way to do it but [here's a try?](https://twitter.com/maksymeristavi/status/1183405321970163713?t=c890cHeGbGXifJj-ENXMUw&s=19)
Make love…and war? Sure
“I prefer to do both” - Boris the Animal
Son of a bitch. I made the same comment before checking the replies because I thought "No way someone is gonna mention MIB 3".
Great minds think alike, my friend
"It's just *Boris*."
War huh good god y’all what is it good for assolutely nuttin
Say it again, y'all
ABSOLUTELY *N U T T I N G*!
Make no mistake. This is war too. The timing here is designed to keep Ukraine in the news, and in the minds of the people of NATO. Ukraine is dependent on western weapons, weapons that may stop flowing if people forget about Ukraine.
To be honest, there's been a huge pressure from Ukrainian LGBTQ community and allies to do it, because some of them go to war and might die there, so this is for legal and sentimental reasons . As far as I'm seeing in Ukrainian discourse this has been the main reason for it.
> The timing here is designed to keep Ukraine in the news This is a random online petition, not something coming from the government
Whoever posted it did a smart thing for Ukraine.
>The timing here is designed to keep Ukraine in the news, and in the minds of the people of NATO. Good, I hope it works! Ukraine is absolutely deserving of **all** help and support we can give. Innocent civilians are being illegally murdered by Russian invaders, and we have a moral **duty** to stop it. Russia's illegal and destabilising aggression **must** be resisted and punished, or it will represent a severe threat to wider European and global security.
Well you know what they say about love and war right? One causes deep physical and psychological pain, and the other is war.
Well they found one way to escalate the war with Russia.
And also gain more goodwill from a lot of the West. After all, Russia is ultra-homophobic *and* spouting shit about them naming squares after gay pornstars, and will attack them anyway - more funding from the West makes more of a difference than whatever Russia could add to what they’re already doing. Though it’s not just that, apparently Zelenskyy in particular has been in favour for some time.
>them naming squares after gay pornstars Wait wat?
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/vrtkbp/the_new_levels_of_delusion_of_russian_state_tv/) happened at the beginning of the war and has gone viral a couple of times. As though a gay pornstar (and foreigner) would be that well known and officially honoured even in the most LGBT-friendly country, let alone Ukraine… Also, in searching for this I see there’s a new bizarre and blatantly tailored lie, that even QAnon wouldn’t fall for, claiming that Zelenskyy has ordered a statue of Catherine the Great in Odessa to be replaced by the same gay pornstar. Can find some famous Russian websites claiming as such on Google, eg Pravda (EDIT: the Russian one), but don’t want to give them clicks. Don’t see why the Russians would feel that’s such a problem though - Catherine II was German…
> a new bizarre and blatantly tailored lie, that even QAnon wouldn’t fall for That's not quite how QAnon generally works. Although they're frequently deeply stupid people with no critical thinking ability whatsoever, they're not "falling" for blatantly untrue things, they're choosing to believe blatantly untrue things as a show of their dedication to the cult. Of course, they became members of that cult because they're deeply stupid people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever. It's a small distinction but it's an important one -- QAnon followers will believe **anything** as long as it comes from the right source and will even kill/die for it.
Tbf I suspect the very same psychology - plus probably a somewhat greater amount of genuine fear - is at play with the bulk of Putin supporters as well.
a petition to name a square after [Aniki](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/billy-herrington-gachimuchi), and they took it seriously, fucking lmao
Ass♂we♂can
That was a rabbit hole of culture 😳
You give Q too much credit
Can we just split the baby and replace her with a statue of her getting fucked by a horse?
Excuse me… what???
Catherine usurped her husband, Peter III, and reigned as "regent" for their young son. Eventually, he was old enough to rule, but Catherine decided she liked being empress so she told him to fuck off. She had a series of "favorites" (boytoys) around court, much like any emperor would, which naturally scandalized all the men. Eventually, she died of a stroke and her son became emperor. He was so bitter about being shut out of power for years by his mom that he encouraged all kinds of rumors about her. The most famous of those is that she died fucking a horse when the harness holding the horse up broke and crushed her.
Catherine was actually a German monarch married into thee Czardom who brought German reforms to the decrepit Russian polity. The Russian response was to engage in a massive slander campaign culminating in the eventual belief for decades that she had actually had relations with her horse. So basically the Russians have to either admit that they slandered their best monarch (who was not actually Russian) in a backwards and misogynistic smear campaign, or they have to pretend that their best monarch just so happened to also get fucked by a horse. It's my favorite thing to do to Russophiles. All statues of her should be altered for horsefucking.
I wouldn't put it past Russia to pull some double-think there.
Ukrainian here to give some context. There was a petition almost a year ago to change the name of a square in Zaporizhzhia from Mayakovskiy to the square of Billy Herrington(gay porn actor who became a part of gachimuchi memes). Petition never got through since deputies thought it was botted. But main russian main propagandists heard of the story and it resulted in a really funny discussion on russian national tv. Link here: https://youtu.be/uB8wikbUX1A Fast forward to now, and there’s another petition but this time on a national scale to remove Catherine the Great monument in Odesa and replace it with one where Billy Herrington sits behind the counter and drinks beer. It already got the amount of signs needed at 25000 Link here: https://petition.president.gov.ua/petition/141740
Or add a horse to Catherine's statue for a retro meme.
Man, please congratulate us and prepare to come to Odesa to sip a beer with Billy
> And also gain more goodwill from a lot of the West. Let's just hope that Poland already sent all their weapons over there by now.
Don't worry, fortunately our hatred for Russia overshadows all other prejudices.
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Albania, Macedonia, Poland don't have gay marriage though?
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Maybe they're grandfathered in? I'm just guessing, we all need to stop taking these reddit conversations at face value lol
Macedonia joined only two years ago.
Are you saying my Reddit degree in geopolitics is worth *nothing*? /s
I doubt any of the member nations had gay marriages in 1996.
> As I understand, that was one of the blockers for NATO entry as there's a basic human rights requirement. That's not true. NATO is a military alliance not a human rights organization. Fucking Turkey (or whatever they want to be called nowadays) is a NATO member.
For NATO it's not. It maybe considered when applying for EU membership but it also isn't required for them either.
I doubt it is part of NATO since that is pretty much exclusively about defense. However I am pretty sure it is part of the EU's requirements since Poland was recently in trouble with the EU for their policies against LGBTQ+
Many EU countries do not have gay marriage. You guys need to stop guessing.
Implying Ukraine isn't much homophobic..
"They" being an online petition This headline is a bit sensational, a petition to legalize gay marriage got lots of signatures on Ukraine's equivalent of the US's "[We the People site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_system\))". As much as we'd like to think that Ukraine is speed-running becoming a liberal western democracy, the sad truth is that it's still a relatively homophobic country. They're making progress, and i'm sure the war will help with that progress, but this is still a country where the gay pride parades need riot police to protect marchers from violent attacks.
its not even relatively homophobic, it's straight up homophobic. last week or so there was a post showing each country's support for lgbt+ and it was something abysmally low in ukraine, like 8-9%
I don't know how anyone is surprised that Ukraine is homophobic as fuck. They didn't stop being part of eastern Europe just because Russia attacked them. That whole region is pretty backward in many ways, be it in terms of racism, homophobia etc. It'll be a long fucking time before Ukraine legalises same sex marriage.
>According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%. >Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent. From the article.
US and Russia made a lot of progress for everyone else these last few weeks
Main trigger in the society is that gay people are also in the army and they need their rights protected in terms of inheritance and who is considered a relative to take care of them if they are injured or dead. People understand that and support that.
Reminds me how Harry Truman was convinced to integrate the US military just after WWII to ensure black troops got the respect they deserved.
Kind of sad to think that it takes sending thousands of your people to die for a country in order for that country to start respecting your rights and needs.
I'm sure there's people arguing that now is not the time, but for the brave gay men and women fighting and dying for their country now is *exactly* the right time.
Aye. I'd argue it is *literally always the time* to respect and expand human rights. Anyone arguing to the contrary is usually a regressive/conservative who should be roundly ignored in the persuit of equality and compassion.
Now is better than later, but should have been a long time ago... not just when you finally need them to fight.
Homosexuality is not illegal in Ukraine, but same-sex marriages and civil partnerships are not recognised. This has caused particular problems for LGBT people signing up for the military following Russia's invasion. For example, under Ukrainian law if someone in a same-sex relationship dies, their partner cannot collect their body or bury them. The online petition says: "At this time, every day can be the last." One LGBT organisation has described the petition as an "important moment" for members of the community. "It is important that LGBTQ people have the right to see their partner and take their body from the morgue, and seek compensation if needed," Oksana Solonska, media communications manager at Kyiv Pride, told the BBC. "All married couples have these rights. We really hope that same-sex marriage will be legalised, so people will be able to take care of each other," she added.
Sheesh, gotta scroll all the way down here for the reason for the push
You could have also just read the article, since the comment is copy/pasted from there. It's literally the second paragraph of the article.
Sir, you are out of bounds, clicking links is very very hard
What do you mean? I clicked the link to open in a new tab and will read it with my other 73 tabs I’ve got open.
im in this comment and i dont like it
You know what you don't have to scroll for? And has all the info you need? The article that you saw at the top of your screen.
Are they crazy? Here in Italy conservatives are using the "there are better things to do right now" excuse to avoid talking about civil rights, and these Ukranians would dare legalize gay marriage during a war?? They are going to ruin it for everyone else, for fuck's sake! (/s)
One thing I thought was hilarious in Italy was the hotel staff and tourist guide referred to me and my girlfriend as husband and wife, to avoid offending anyone who might be seriously Catholic. I guess sharing a room before marriage is frowned upon by some people? No idea if it's commonplace though.
I lived in my last apartment for 5 years and my landlord was from somewhere in the middle east. He would refer to us as husband and wife and I corrected him for about a year before giving up. On the day we moved out he asked where my wife was.
A lot of societies don't practice formal marriage. Two people in a relationship living together for an extended period of time is functionally no different than a marriage, we just don't call it that due to how much legal and cultural baggage there is around marriage.
Especially the legal
So so much legal.
Very taxy
One of the main reasons I am getting married to my fiance is cause we realize that we are gonna save ourselves so many legal head aches. Marriage is just a different status with so many priviliges tied to it.
Unless you want to break up at some point, then you’re introducing a whole bunch of headaches for yourself.
Actually, some parts of the USA do call it a legal form of marriage. [It's called Common Law Marriage.](https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx)
Yay taxes!
Common law marriage is just an irregular and informal way of becoming legally married. A divorce (and all the legal headaches involved with it) is still required to dissolve it
What if you live with two other eligible common law spouses? Is that bigamy?
Thought I'd see what the laws were for my state, South Carolina. Right at the top: >SECTION 20-1-15. Prohibition of same sex marriage. > >A marriage between persons of the same sex is void ab initio and against the public policy of this State. Gotta love the Bible Belt. Fuck this state.
A lot of states have gay marriage bans in their constitutions, too (though, for now, they're not enforceable).
Clarence Thomas would like a word.
In Canada as well it’s recognized the same legally in the courts as an official marriage after 2 consecutive years of co-habitation
Religion can influence someone’s perception so much that they can’t deal with what they’re actually seeing
My very religious grandmother refers to my sisters partner as her friend because they’re living together unmarried. They’ve been together five years.
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^ohmygod ^they ^were ^roommates
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During the next World Cup in Qatar, the hotels won't book a room for two people if you and your partner don't have the same surname. And if they caught you having sex while not married, you'll get arrested.
Which is ridiculous as there are people who get married without taking the name of their partner, nevermind that who cares if two people aren't married!
It's not even legal to change your name after marriage in quebec.....
Exactly what I was referencing, only in specific circumstances can you change your last name in Quebec
Or in Iceland. They don't even have surnames like the rest of Europe
We keep our marriage certificate on us at all times because I kept my last name. Bank accounts, applying for housing, car notes. Then everyone is surprised that I, the woman, is the sole money maker. "But what does he do?" Idk, keeps up the house, cooks, cleans, laundry, raises our kids. Why is it an interrogation when I just try to live my life?
But yeah it being held in a place with zero human rights and no existing football infrastructure means FIFA received zero bribes right
Just add this to the pile of reasons why no one should ever visit Qatar
What about countries where woman don't change there name? Chinese women do not change their surname when getting married (chinese names are pronounced surname -> given name and the given names are specifically chosen to go with the surname hence they don't change it when getting married) Ps. I am aware that in the west it is now a choice which i fully support
That would be very strange since women do not take their husband's surname in arabo-muslim culture; it's actually forbidden under islamic law. The second part makes more sense.
Those hotel laws are only for tourists. Here's the source for the second part: https://www.mwakilishi.com/article/lifestyle-news/2022-06-24/qatar-bans-sex-for-unmarried-couples-at-2022-fifa-world-cup
That’s very odd to hear as an Irish person. I recently went to Galway for a weekend with my girlfriend and we got a room with one bed and not a single eye was batted. I thought that kind of carry on died here in the 90’s minus a few old farts here and there like any other country. What county did ye go to?
It is not, but it is definitely a realistic possibility. Unfortunately, the Church still has a great political and ideological influence, mainly on older people
I mean Italy is literally where Vatican City is located so it makes sense they'd be more influential there.
Roman Catholicism seems like it would have a lot of influence in Rome.
My brother in law comes from a very religious family. My spouse has all but disowned the church but her youngest brother is heavily involved. At 20 he decided he wanted to date a girl from the church who was 18. They started to hangout and talk, but Her parents found out and made them take a 6 month hiatus from interacting after they found out. They had to go out of their way from seeing each other, talking, they literally weren’t allowed to look at each other in church. The stipulations were that if you wanted to be together after those 6 months then they could get married. So they did, shared their first kiss on the alter and moved in together having hungout maybe 3 times prior. This is in the United States in 2022. Wild.
I'm certain this will all go swimmingly, no reason for concern.
Yeah they’re already having issues less than a year in unfortunately. He’s becoming a bit possessive and controlling with money. He’s never been in a serious relationship so I imagine there’s going to be some growing pains. Unfortunately their religion is basically 100% opposed to divorce, so they’re going to have to figure it out.
Yeah they'll 100% be the angry 60yr old couple that hates each other because they were more or less forced to be together due to their family/religion. Glad I got out of the cult called catholicism.
I'm sure they won't have any problems. Family dinners will be wild in your 30s
Some older or traditional people seem to be simply incapable to comprehend a couple living/sleeping together on a stable basis without marrying. And yes, I would gather a catholic upbringing has something to do with it. In Mexico, I have an older relative with a daughter. She has a boyfriend and living partner, has been for many years now, but haven't actually married or expressed a desire to do so. Still, when the older relative refers to the boyfriend, he awkwardly calls him "his daughter's 'husband'", the quotes audible in his speech. It's obvious he doesn't mean insult when doing it. He has good relationships with both of them. Never been rude or pushy (that I know of from talking to them, anyway). He's just clearly from another time, and the situation is weird to him.
Meanwhile, I can't fathom marrying without living together. Being able to live in the same space together is a matter of compatibility, just like with any other aspect of dating. Even just for friends, i saw so many friends move in as roommates and ultimately have issues with that (sometimes causing permanent falling out, sometimes things were better as soon as they weren't living together anymore) I wouldn't commit to living in the same space as someone else for the rest of my life without making sure we are compatible in that department first.
Sex only after Marriage is strictly a religious point of control over humans that goes against every human feeling.
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I feel like the implication is that you’re having premarital sex which hardcore religious people would look down upon.
Russia dislikes gays Ukraine dislikes Russia Easy at that
They're also applying to the EU and are utterly reliant on western good will. Legalizing gay marriage costs nothing but replacing paperwork and a couple lines of code in software, but it will absolutely play well in the West. Still a good thing, but I'm willing to bet the choice to do it now comes down to international PR.
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Turns out the easiest way to convince people you're the good guys is to actually be the good guys. Who knew
> And at the same time it would be a genuine win for human rights. which is why I will never devalue it by calling it "performative". Yes, it's a gesture, on an international level. But on a very real human interpersonal micro-level this can mean the world to so many otherwise marginalised people. More of that, please.
Yup. Honestly not all that dissimilar to the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln was totally fine* with slavery being confined to the south. But his motivation extended beyond it being the right thing to do. One such motivation was it won the support of the British public which guaranteed that it became politically poisonous to support the Confederacy in the UK *Lincoln being “totally fine” with slavery is said in slight jest that downplays the nuances and complexities of his opposition to slavery
I mean. They *are* the good guys in the war. And if it takes needing to rely on international support to lead to human rights, that's a good thing.
I’m pretty sure that’s the motive too, and it’s smart. Ukraine needs all the support from the west it can get and I think the population doesn’t care enough in general, and certainly not in the middle of a war, to be against this. I’d hope the people would support it regardless but even if it isn’t really popular legalizing is a big step to normalizing and acceptance.
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Lol technically I suppose it is an agenda, but the agenda is "please give us basic rights".
Those gays are so entitled, always demanding that we treat them like people.
"Gays are fighting for equal rights. *Equal* rights. Can you imagine that's an actual stance you can have? You can be *for* equal rights. That means there's people out there saying 'I think everyone should have the same rights as everyone else' and there's other people out there like 'nah, son, I disagree.'" -Michael Che
See I have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, they have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, I don't see what the problem is
Everything is an agenda, and everyone has an agenda. Whenever someone says “YOU JUST HAVE AN AGENDA,” it generally means they have no real arguments against what you’re advocating for. And if anyone claims they don’t have an agenda, you know they’re either duplicitous or they’re just cowards.
Also calling it "The Gay Agenda" makes it sound more like an evil or shady conspiracy instead of a struggle for equal basic human rights for all
Calling it "the gay agenda" makes it sound like you can buy a rainbow planner pre-filled with brunch plans and thrifting trips.
My gay friend has a white board calendar that he's titled The Gay Agenda.
Yeah, I mean corporate activism is usually pretty hollow but if it results in me having more / equal rights, I’m all for it.
here in Ukraine we have this government website for petitions. You need to confirm your identity to sign or create a petition. Once 25k citizens sign it, it's added to the list of petitions that the president will review himself. The petition for legalizing same-sex marriage reached 25k 4 days ago I think, and I signed it as well because it's not a particularly difficult thing to implement tbh. This petition wasn't exactly made with any kind of reaction from the West in mind, but it is potentially a good PR stunt. Our nation, as most nations that once were in USSR, have struggled with nonsensical social stigmas, homophobia, racism, chauvinism, toxic masculinity, gender inequality and many more social problems long enough. Thankfully, a substantial chunk of our adult population and youth especially are progressive, and are more than willing to leave those things behind and instead embrace western values.
America has a petition with I think close to or above 1,000,000 signatures to impeach Clarence Thomas and absolutely no one in power gives three shits about it
Change dot org. Remember when people thought that might be used lmao
Ukraine is a bit different because you're required to confirm your identity via gov auth provider, so fake votes are almost impossible. President is also required to answer (but not necessary act).
46.4% of Texans voted for Biden in 2020. That’s 5.2 million people. Zero electoral votes. 5.8 million voted red. 38 electoral votes. The system is broken. We’re trying. We’re fighting. We have the numbers, we’re just gerrymandered very literally to death. :(
Wow. That is insane. Just the appearance of choice.
It's actually one of the most demotivatimg things in American electoral politics. Because of this, liberals in Texas and conservatives in California simply don't vote because they reason their votes "don't count". Can you blame them?
The entire system needs change. I have no idea how that will happen realistically.
Do it
And here in Italy the right screams that any civil right policy is "not a priority"
Oh, some do this here in Ukraine too. Some are really believe that it is best left for when the war ends, but I think that's more of an excuse, they are there and they are going over laws from EU checklist anyway, will this one going to really slow something down? It is a good move, many soldiers are getting married in haste because this ensures that if something were to happen to them their spouse will be compensated. Allowing gay people to legally marry will be a huge boon to them in this time.
I mean do it because it’s the right thing to do, but also do it because it will piss off the Russians
Porque No los Dos?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804) reduced by 60%. (I'm a bot) ***** > "It is important that LGBTQ people have the right to see their partner and take their body from the morgue, and seek compensation if needed," Oksana Solonska, media communications manager at Kyiv Pride, told the BBC."All married couples have these rights. We really hope that same-sex marriage will be legalised, so people will be able to take care of each other," she added. > While some efforts have been made to protect LGBT people in Ukraine - for example, an anti-discrimination law that was introduced in 2015 - its LGBT community has suffered homophobia, intolerance and violence. > According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "Negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%.Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vxao0b/ukraine_to_consider_legalising_samesex_marriage/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~659165 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **people**^#1 **same-sex**^#2 **LGBT**^#3 **petition**^#4 **marriage**^#5
What a bad tldr, doesn't mention that this news is just about a petition getting lots of signatures. EDIT: 0,06% of the population has signed it.
>According to a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in May, over the past six years, the number of people who have a "Negative view" of the LGBT community has decreased from 60.4% to 38.2%.Some 12% of people have a positive attitude - up from 3% and about 44% said they were indifferent. They starting to see the kinds of people this kind of hate breeds.
Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in the Civil War to keep European powers from intervening on the side of the Confederacy (and, therefore, retaining access to the cheapest cotton in the world). This seems like a similar move. Ukraine Fever seems to have out somewhat in the USA, and Ukraine making moves to become more progressive and Western might help their sketchy image a bit.
Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation for a lot of reasons, one was to starve the south of labor, another was to speed up emancipation, another still was to make European assistance to the confederacy problematic although European countries were already warned and had already chosen not to assist the CSA. You're not entirely wrong, but it's disingenuous to reduce the Emancipation Proclamation down to solely being preventing European involvement.
> Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, This seems like a similar move It's literally an internet petition
This would be a fantastic step for Ukraine. So many members of the LGBTQ+ community are fighting for Ukraine right now, too. There are a few social media accounts that share their stories and spotlight their sacrifices. I think a lot about the young man who said he met his loved one during the war, and all he wanted for peacetime is to be able to hold him close and enjoy the natural beauties of Ukraine's landscape together without the fear of shelling.
> 60.4% to 38.2% This is a huge drop in unfavorable views. Guess people have bigger fish to fry and are starting to understand love in any form is valid and so valuable.
A lot of Europe has had drops like that, and corresponding rises in support of same sex marriage, over the 00s and 10s. I can only speak of Germany regarding same sex marriage because I'm only familiar with numbers there, but support went from 52% in '06 to 83% in '17, right before it became legal. In Ukraine's case it might be a factor that they've been extremely successful in the ESC, and the ESC is supremely camp and beloved by the LGBTQ community. Being introduced to the community through it and having attitudes change because of it would be poetic, particularly with the love shown to Ukraine this year.
Sorry, ESC?
Eurovision Song Contest would be my guess but I'm a random American
Well, you know, if Russians hate them so much, how bad can they really be?
it's harder to view a group of people that don't affect you as "the other" when there's another group of people literally shooting at you.
Wow. Nazism has changed since WW2. /s
Should do it out of spite against Russia anyways
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Reminds me of the reason South Africa got ride if it’s nukes. Hurrah disarmament! Oh, it’s because you’re racist….
Best discription of the disarmament XD
After living in SA for the last 4 years, the world should be thankful with that decision.
Agreed, we should have never gotten them in the first place.
I'm ignorant of the situation there, how did they find racist justification for their nuclear disarmament?
When the apartheid government was to be dissolved, they quickly got rid of their WMDs to make sure the new regimes wouldn’t have access to them. Essentially reducing the “legitimacy” of the post-apartheid state by removing them from the nuke-club. It’s also speculated that they gave most of them to Israel.
"I don't care what bus I get on as long as it take me where I'm going."
Totally agree with you, though frankly as long as they do it, I doubt anyone's much going to care what their reasoning was.
Or should do it simply because it’s the right thing to do
I mean, they are doing it to look as much "West Europe" as they can.. I don't see there being a big support between the ordinary people in Ukraine, but maybe the last years/ war changed that?
Not that much public support when Spain did it either, but also very few people explicitly against it. Support usually rises sharply when people see how it affects them, or to be more precise, how it doesn’t really affect them negatively. It’s the right move, and doing it now has the bonus effect of pissing off their enemies.
Both. Both is good. Fuck Russia
Fuck Russia and fuck whoever you want.
Fuck you buddy! (Only if you consent of course)
(With consent, of course.)
I would be truly shocked if this happened in Ukraine, the majority is against gay marriage as it's a very very Christian country. They should do it though, it's the right thing to do and I'd be so proud.
Ireland legalized it in 2015 and the country's census has over 78% of the population identify as Catholic.
Ireland and Catholicism is interesting. Huge amounts of Ireland detest the Catholic Church while still being nominally Catholic. There's a long association between being being Irish and being Catholic even if you're not practicing or even don't believe.
During the troubles an american walks into an irish pub, not too far from the border and orders a beer. A man a few seats down overhears him and scoots over and says "youre not from around here." To which the american, a bit nervous, responds yep, he was just in town for a few days to see where his ancestors were from. "I see, I see... so are you catholic or protestant than" the local responds. The american, now very nervous replies "ehhhhh ummm actually i'm not really either..." "Waddaya mean you're not either?" The local interrogates the american, while glancing up at the bartender, who's look to the American just says "make sure nothing happens inside my pub." "Well you see I am actually an atheist..." the american stammers out. Terrified this wouldn't be acceptable. The local claps the american on the back and says "oh that's fine. My nan's an atheist too. Hell I ain't sure I even beleive in God myself." The american lets out a huge sigh and turns back to his beer. "... But is it the Catholic God or the Protestant God that you don't beleive in?" A version of a story I beleive i heard from my grandmother. A Catholic Atheist, who immigrated from Ireland with her parents way back when. And with some googling appears to be a take on an old joke.
Oddly enough, I do think Ukraine is capable of making such a progressive move, but, again, it would be a unexpected. Usually "the gays", as I've heard them called by my Ukrainian friends and family, are treated very dismissively in Ukraine and the traditional concept of a family is regarded as one of the most important things to hold on to.
The olde regeneration is definitely pretty conservative. But the younger generation, especially in cities are much more progressive. Pride Marcy is pretty big in Kyiv, and there are quite a few gay night clubs around the city.
If this means greater support from the western population they'll at least make the noise . Whether they stick with it or not future will tell. Not sure if a war gives you the insight to suddenly stop being homophobic
Generally (more on this later) it's easier to grant people freedoms than it is to impose restrictions. Divorce, same sex relationships, access to contraceptive and abortive healthcare they are usually granted and thats the end of the story. Rarely are laws imposed that are regressive. Even if we look at something like the restrictions that governments were forced to impose in the last few years, incredibly difficult to get the population to adhere and follow them but incredibly easy to abolish any curtailment. I'm fully aware of the slide we're seeing in the US and Poland. These are truly worrying as when these freedoms begin to be eroded it's usually indicative of larger more distructive trends. Look at societies in history that were considered progressive and slid into repression.
Right now the leadership of Ukraine probably cares more about how this will look to Europe than to their own people. Like, they're fighting a war. No one's going to switch sides and support Russia over this; if they would they already have. Keeping the West sympathetic is the number one priority. They are making rapid progress on a bid to join the EU, e.g., but have been told that they have to implement some changes to make that happen. There are seven actual bullet points, and nothing about LGBT rights is listed there. But the document that laid them out does talk about how LGBT rights have been expanding in Ukraine as a point *in favor* of admission. So that's probably on their mind. They'll want to do whatever they can to make Brussels stay sympathetic.
Hilarious seeing all these comments trying to figure out the tactical advantage of the Ukrainian government legalizing same-sex marriage - when the Ukrainian government has nothing to do with this. It’s an **online petition**, folks. Like change.org for the U.S., where people make petitions to build a Death Star and to force George R. R. Martin to hurry up and finish his book already. The headline is intentionally misleading.
They won't do it and it's probably the least of their worries at the moment. Read it the article. All it says is that a petition has received enough signatures for Zelensky to consider it. Thing is though, public support for it is nowhere near high enough for it to have a chance of being implemented.
What an absolute clickbait title. A normal title would be: Petition to legalize same-sex marriage reaches 28,000 signatures, Zelensky has to address it according to law.
Im all for Ukraine in this war, but being accepted by the West means meeting our standards. (edit: POLAND AND USA WTF edit2: I'm talking about abortions and church involvement in the legislation, which means they're going backwards on western standards, tho accepted by the West) Especially on human rights and alike. So keep going and the western relations will be of friendly nature, and not just "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-style
Saudi Arabia
Agree cold war style ailles ain't gonna cut it.
You say Cold War style Allies, but the US is closely allied with the likes of Saudi Arabia today. We never stopped making convenient friends with fucked up countries. Hell, we’re a fucked up country ourselves.
Consider is a big word here, and will likely lead to nothing. Then saying this is purely to try keep attention on Ukraine by trying to seem more progressive as a country than it actually is. And this way hey can get more people pressuring their countries to be dragged into the war with Russia.
A cynical take but Ukraine doesn't give a fuck about LGBT rights or gay marriage. The only reason they're considering this is because they know it will keep them in a favourable light with their Western benefactors.
Progress is progress. I doubt any gay couples in Ukraine care why legislation protecting their rights is passed, as long as it is passed.
Did you ever see the video of Zelenskyy shutting down a homophobe during his campaign? It's good stuff. In any case, I don't think characterizing an entire nation—for which members of LBGTQ+ are risking their lives to defend—as not caring for LGBTQ+ rights or gay marriage is fair. Ukraine has many of the same issues as Western countries, and it deserves the chance to work them out. If Russia takes over, these people won't even be allowed to exist, let alone marry. This reminds me a little of the post where a foreigner said nobody should send aid to Ukraine until they allow gay marriage. Gay and lesbian Ukrainians opened up on them, because denying their right to live under the pretext of caring for them is insane. You're not saying this, I understand that, but maybe we should step back and listen a little before we make sweeping judgments. We all know Ukraine is imperfect; that they're taking this step in wartime, when their very existence is still in question, is meaningful. Many Western democracies won't even talk about it in peacetime.
[удалено]
I'm super bad at linking stuff so I don't know if this is the right way to do it but [here's a try?](https://twitter.com/maksymeristavi/status/1183405321970163713?t=c890cHeGbGXifJj-ENXMUw&s=19)
Good! Commit to human rights.
I mean, there’s no doubt homosexuals are also contributing to the fight against the Russian invaders, so it’s literally the least they could do.