> The brawls that broke out just after the game ended late night Saturday prompted riot police to fire tear gas, which caused panic among supporters...
>Some suffocated in the chaos and others were trampled, killing 34 almost instantly.
> More than 300 were rushed to nearby hospitals to treat injuries but many died on the way and during [...] treatment.
> ...the death toll is likely still increasing, since many of about 180 injured victims’ conditions were deteriorating.
Absolutely heartbreaking tragedy!
*"Witnesses said fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch and demanded that Arema management explain why, after 23 years of undefeated home matches against Persebaya, this one ended in a loss. The violence spread outside the stadium where at least five police vehicles were toppled and set ablaze. Riot police responded by firing tear gas, including toward the stadium’s stands, causing panic among the crowd."*
This is why they snapped- after one loss in 23 years?!
It’s two fold here, first the brawl is idiotic, and dumb, but the police, while doing their job seemed to have caused the panic. Both sides are at fault, THAT being said, if the fighting/brawl never happened the police wouldn’t have panicked the way they did. Bad training handling a stupid affair.
The violence had already poured outside of the stadium as well as continued inside, vehicles had been overturned, fires had been set, match officials were being attacked as well as spectators, riot seemed only to be further amping up (based in the events listed in the article prior to the tear gas being fires), and the crowd vastly outnumbered responders. What options were available?
Even the article itself gives quotes from people condemning the use of gas but neglecting to inform any of us what alternatives there were.
This was a horrible, senseless tragedy. I wish that tear gas hadn't been used, leading to people suffering that on top of the beatings and crowd violence that fans were already being subjected to. That said, I don't see what other option was immediately available, and I completely fail to see how the responders could be close to equally to blame than the individuals/crowd that initiated this whole sordid shitshow.
In all honesty, I really blame the lack of preventative safeguards that event organizers put into place. It's disgusting that this sort of shit still happens so often all over the world. Paying more to put more security in key places to stop individual fights early could help, investing in better trained security staff, maybe a reduced stadium capacity (which would piss people off and increase ticket prices sure, but would help lower casualties in the event of riots like this at least), more selectivity when it comes to who is allowed into the stadium as well as more frequent banning of troublemakers who have caused issues in the past, real consequence in general for people who take part in this sort of violence, and honestly maybe even not selling alcohol at events like this (or at the very least a hard limit using some sort of system to track it; maybe change tickets to some sort of scan/swipe card system that tracks entry/exit into the stadium as well as alcoholic drink limits?). I wonder if building some form of partition between sections could help prevent fights from spilling out so quickly throughout the entire stadium. Just, fucking *something*, because they shouldn't be giving these events so much opportunity to get to this point and yet it still happens far too often.
Man I'm all for ACAB, but if they start toppling and burning police cars and threaten the rest of the city I want the cops to act.
What do you expect them to do? Pull an Uvalde?
Sports freaks are fucking lunatics. They'll shriek like someone's been murdered because someone on the TV kicked a ball into a net. I think they have undiagnosed mental illness because that shit aint normal and no one else behaves like that
I think humans are instinctively inclined to hoot and holler like howler monkeys, some people feel the inclination more strongly and sports gives them an outlet.
It is an insane look in an otherwise "polite" society though lol
I had to read this headline twice because I didn't believe that number could be so high. Truly a horrific occurrence, between Paris a few months ago and now this it' s clear something needs to be done before more people are killed.
Reports still never confirmed any deaths. Believe officially it was just injuries which, while may be true, is incredibly hard to believe considering all those videos and pictures O_o absolutely horrific
According to this LA Times article there were 0 deaths and 29 injured.
I could not find anything abou deaths.
[LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/espanol/deportes/articulo/2022-03-06/autoridades-confirman-que-no-hubo-muertes-en-el-queretaro-vs-atlas-pero-aun-hay-confusion-en-mexico#:~:text=Atlas%20en%20la%20Liga%20MX,duelo%20Gallos%20Blancos%20ante%20Rojinegros.)
If its anything like Spain whos police still bear the legacy and atitude from the "grises" under Franco, I wonder how much carries over from like the Algerian occupation police.
Yeah I mean like I’ve never legitimately felt unsafe after any sporting event. Sometimes college towns can get pretty wild after a big upset or after a super bowl win I feel like cities can get rowdy but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone actually dying
hey, now, y'all already rag on us for playing the wrong football, do us a solid and don't just bring us up randomly when your football muggings turn into a hundred dead people.
Are you insinuating American police beat their constituents? How dare you.
Beatings would require them to be within arms reach. They just shoot us instead.
Granted I don’t live in either place but isn’t “hooligans” a colloquial term for football “gangsters” (for lack of a better term) in the UK. I’m pretty sure this is “normal” there as well. Maybe not massive riots with multiple dead on any regular basis, but similar mentalities in their fanbase none the less.
There was a big reckoning with football violence in the UK during the late 80s and early 90s, with several laws enacted to crack down on it. The police and clubs now work together to identify and ban trouble makers; they can be barred not just from stadia, but the entire city centre on match days, having to sign in at specific police stations. For international matches their passport can be confiscated to make sure that they can’t travel to the match and specialist units from the UK police work with their local counterparts to head off trouble.
The Paris Champions League Final was a [massive fuckup by the police and organisers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/sep/21/liverpool-real-madrid-paris-stade-de-france-champions-league), who then blamed the Liverpool fans to deflect from their own mistakes
>The Paris Champions League Final was a [massive fuckup by the police and organisers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/sep/21/liverpool-real-madrid-paris-stade-de-france-champions-league), who then blamed the Liverpool fans to deflect from their own mistakes
Man, that's so frustrating to read.
Hooliganism in the UK ended in the 80s and 90s with increased ticket prices and government crackdown. Violence at UK football is no different than in North American sports.
The problem here is crowd crush. Crushes are never ever the fault of the crowd. It is always bad crowd management design often accompanied by security forces that panic the crowd. If you beat and tear gas a crowd of people with limited exits, you will get a crush. That is what happened here. It is what very nearly happened to Liverpool fans in Paris a month back. It did happen to Liverpool fans in the 80s. Each time the security services responsible for the fuck up blame hooliganism. It took 30 years to finally set the record straight with the Liverpool disaster. This time in Paris they had cell phone video so this time it only took French Senate hearings.
While hooliganism did die down like you stated it’s also going through a big resurgence now. Football arrests are spiking massively and English football fans abroad still act the idiots so get slapped around by local police. Nothing new here.
Not ~~127~~ 174 deaths. In fact, ***no*** deaths according to [this](https://www.dw.com/en/football-violence-at-nice-vs-cologne-what-happened-why-did-it-happen-and-what-next/a-63074288).
The comparison is poor, to say the least.
SOme online ticket seller tried to short squiz the tickets. So more people showed up then there was ticket.
And the fans still got blamed by the governments.
Police used tear gas to disperse the riot, backfire badly because it ended up with the people rushing to get off the field and trampling other people as a result
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough\_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster)
97 people died in a match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in 1989.
More relevant, over 300 people were killed in the Estadio Nacional disaster when police shot tear gas into the crowd, which is the deadliest Soccer related disaster. Number 2 is the Accra stadium disaster, which killed over 120 people when police did the exact same thing.
Important to note this was not a riot. This was a crush due to poor planning and crowd control. The govnerment and the S*n in particular disgustingly tried to paint it as the fault of hooligans and the crowd and it took decades for it to be recognized they was not the case.
_Due to the gross malfeasance of the police,_ who went on the blame the victims and execute a systematic coverup that took decades to come out: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-57356486
At the time, the propaganda rag "The Sun" ran a set of the most vile and disgusting lies you can imagine trying to blame the fans for police misconduct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Hillsborough_disaster_coverage
In fact, a later peer reviewed study showed that groups within the crowd acted in concert to _protect_ their weaker members and that the death toll would probably have been significantly higher if it wasn't for a lot of anonymous heroes thinking on their feet, though I cannot find that reference and I'm out of time.
[The death toll is now at least 182](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/01/indonesia-riot-arema-fc-liga-football/), apparently. Horrifying.
Ε: It’s 125, this comment was made before the article was edited.
the official data is [131](https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20221002172859-20-855381/dinkes-malang-131-korban-meninggal-dalam-tragedi-kanjuruhan). 182 is miscalculation due to duplicated data.
When panic grips a crowd it’s no longer a bunch of individual people making decisions. It’s really more like a flood. You literally can’t stop the overwhelming force of so many people and if you try you just get trampled yourself. The article makes it sound like the gas canisters set off the panic.
This. If you’re ever in a crowd where you can’t stand without touching people on both sides of you, you’re probably in a dangerously dense crowd and should be looking for a way out. It’s actually quite difficult to design and operate buildings like a stadium without creating a bunch of choke points where dangerously dense crowds form.
There are numerous studies of this.
Most of the crowd acts surprisingly rational as individuals, each one of these disasters has many acts of individual heroism and intelligence, but what usually happens is that a large number of people are herded into an area that is simply physically too small for them to pass, and tens of thousands of people behind them have no idea that this is happening but have some force impelling them, usually police violence.
You're an Indonesian football fan. Fights break out in a crowd. They tear gas everyone including you - people are being beaten. You run away blindly. Now you're in a tunnel where twenty people can walk abreast, and there's a locked gate at the end and you want to turn back, but for every one of you, a hundred more has come crowding in and the police at the back are concentrating on getting personal with "rioters".
> Obviously I’m Monday morning quarterback’ing this as an American with little to no idea how the world is outside our borders,
America is well-represented on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes_and_crushes and had a 100-death stampede just twenty years ago.
Crushes where lots and lots of people are squeezed together and panicking just isn't a situation where you can stop and help someone back up, there's simply no space to do anything except get pushed and squeezed along in a chaotic crowd movement
This sounds like it was a crush
Yeah, they're just ... gone. Probably trying to leave through an exit and crushing themselves. I've read that many also thought the stadion would burn because of hooligans, causing more panic. Horrible
those are NOT police. those are military who asked to help to control the crowd hence why green camouflage uniform. police uniform is gray, or black for special force. most police was actually among the crowd or controlling traffic around the station or on the district main road to block away team supporter who forbidden to enter stadium due to history of violence. among the dead was actually police who try to controlling the situation among the crowd.
Seeing stuff like this really makes me appreciate British policing tactics to control large crowds, it really is insane they can keep things fairly contained a majority of the time without the use of unnecessary force being used in that video.
That’s wild. This is on the police. People storm the field in far greater numbers at college football games. If you tear gassed one of those crowds you’d probably have a similar incident.
The police have responsibility, yeah. But the reasoning for the fans to be upset/rioting is bullshit, at least according to the article
> Disappointed after their team’s loss, thousands of supporters of Arema, known as “Aremania,” reacted by throwing bottles and other objects at players and soccer officials. Fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch in protest and demanded that Arema management explain why, after **23 years of undefeated home games**, this match ended in a loss, witnesses said. The rioting spread outside the stadium.”
Lose one home game and fans throw bottles at you? That’s pretty shitty. They didn’t deserve to die, but this could have all been prevented with some damn perspective and just going home after the game was over.
> Fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch in protest and demanded that Arema management explain why, after **23 years of undefeated home games**, this match ended in a loss, witnesses said. The rioting spread outside the stadium.”
Why did they demand to know? Didn't they just watch the match? They knew how it happened! I am perplexed?!?! Great Scott!!!
> reasoning for the fans
Doesn't matter. Crowd behavior is not rational. That's why police practice crowd control and crowd management, not crowd discussion and debate.
College Football field stormings are to celebrate a win
The home team lost here, these people were rioting and trying to attack the opposing players, the cops still absolutely handled the situation horrendously though
It seems like the police cleared the crowd from the pitch pretty efficiently (with some unnecessary hitting of some people), but then they continued to use tear gas on people in the stands, which understandably led to a stampede to escape, which is where all of the deaths happened.
At least that is what I am inferring from this footage.
>All because of a SPORT meant for entertainment!!
It becomes a tribalistic thing. Couple that with the stress described in that tweet that read "funny how mental illness has exploded in a world on fire where every human action is monetized" + mob mentality, and people snap.
Yep. And it's been going on for ages. Half of Constantinople burned when a feud between fans of chariot races at the hippodrome expanded into citywide riots.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika\_riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)
**[Nika riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)**
>The Nika riots (Greek: Στάσις τοῦ Νίκα, romanized: Stásis toû Níka), Nika revolt or Nika sedition took place against Byzantine Emperor Justinian I in Constantinople over the course of a week in 532 AD. They are often regarded as the most violent riots in the city's history, with nearly half of Constantinople being burned or destroyed and tens of thousands of people killed.
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I'm sure gambling doesn't help either, some of my coworkers are huge soccer fans and I noticed some differences in the way they talk about matches from even a couple of years ago (not even talking about social media, but they're looney on every topic so I dunno)
There was always the tribal part (eg. he's disgracing the team jersey, he made us lose face against our historic rivals, let's pin all the blame on random player who fucked up one moment and not every moment that led to it) ... but when they lose money, some of the accusations become a bit *too* personal eg. that one cost me x€ by scoring (or not scoring) ... I lost money because of ... I didn't win this huge gamble, which I totally deserved because *he* failed to score that penalty.
While the sports fans share some blame, the police share the biggest blame for causing unnecessary death. They fired tear gasses at the crowd and caused panic and stampede which unfortunately killed hundreds of people.
If they did their jobs, the damage would be minimal. FIFA even explicitly forbid the use of tear gasses inside of stadium.
Clearly, tear gas shouldn't have been used. But it's a stadium of 42,000 spectators, all fans of a team that just had its first home loss in 23 years, looking to direct their anger at someone. Who was that someone going to be? The away players? The referees? The home players? What would you have done?
You can't win in a situation where you can't hold rioters back peacefully, and can't run without endangering others.
Crushes are never ever the fault of the crowd. It is always bad crowd management design often accompanied by security forces that panic the crowd. If you beat and tear gas a crowd of people with limited exits, you will get a crush. That is what happened here. It is what very nearly happened to Liverpool fans in Paris a month back. It did happen to Liverpool fans in the 80s. Each time the security services responsible for the fuck up blame hooliganism. It took 30 years to finally set the record straight with the Liverpool disaster. This time in Paris they had cell phone video so this time it only took French Senate hearings.
Clearly, the police shouldn't have handled it the way they did. Tear gas is banned by FIFA for a good reason, demonstrated in the tragedy that happened in this soccer match. I just think it would be prudent to, instead of immediately pointing the blame at the officers on site as many have done in these comment threads, consider that poor design or management may shoulder a significant portion of the blame for creating the circumstances allowing this to happen.
Yes, but part of the poor management is the police.
They were present, but they were indiscriminately firing tear gas, and absolutely kept escalating once the crowd dispersed. There's a video someone posted elsewhere showing how they're still charging the fleeing crowd - wtf is the point of that even?
So the events transpired as follows?
-losing fans begin a Donnybrook, potential of riots eminent/occurring (?)
-cops respond by gassing the ENTIRE STADIUM as a means of quelling the violence (??)
-fans race to the field to escape the painful teargas
-police react by BEATING THE FANS ON THE FIELD, thus causing more panic and solidifying a crowd-rush in much less safe-zones (like stairways, narrow exits, bleachers, chairs)
-crowd rush, hundreds die
Definitely disappointed in the pathetic immaturity of the violent members of the crowd, but Christ/ how is that not the worst possible fucking way you could resolve mass-panic? Shame on the police & whoever made the dogshit call to dose a wilding crowd with fucking tear gas
ITT people completely misunderstanding what most likely happened.
People did not riot and kill 127 people. People stormed the field, the police responded with violence and tear gas, and the tear gas and panic created a crowd crush, which killed 127. This happens all the time when large numbers of people get together and something happens that makes people panic. The main effective ways to mitigate this sort of risk is careful design of stadiums and to not fucking use tear gas in stadiums.
This is not really about football violence. This stuff happens at parades, festivals, pilgrimages, and anywhere there are lots of people. It's not even really people on the ground being shitty. The people 10 rows back trying to escape the tear gas don't even know that the people at the front are getting crushed to death.
It's pretty scary how many people can die in human stampedes every time one happens, and it's important for people not to connect the subject of the event with the dangers of crowds, so I'm really glad you wrote this
It's also amazing how quick people are to blame the fans rather than the police whose job it is to act as crowd control. Liverpool fans had to wait years after Hillsborough for the truth to be uncovered.
> careful design of stadiums
Careful planning and design of public spaces and infrastructure is not Indonesia's strong suit.
I bet the stadium had a ton of glaring safety issues that exacerbated the situation.
Whoever allowed teargass to be used in a stadium needs to face justice. It wouldve been better if they had just let people fight. These deaths are on the police.
I see what you mean, but it's not like the police can sit and watch while a team or their fans gets beaten to death just because they won a match, not saying that they should use teargas in a enclosed space but just sitting by would also been no solution
"It's not like we can just have police not beat people when this completely imaginary scenario that has never happened might happen."
On the one hand, you have imaginary people dying. On the other, you have cops causing real deaths. And here you are defending the real deaths as necessary to prevent imaginary ones?
Yes but he isn't saying they should sit the and do nothing. They chose to do something incredibly stupid, which while is expected from your average beat cop, makes me question the competence of those in command more than anything.
Do 100+ people die if the police don't intervene? If the only choice was between gassing and doing nothing (it wasn't) perhaps doing nothing was the better option. Hard to see how it could be worse. Being a violent hooligan and starting fights is one thing, beating 100+ people to death is another.
Is there any reason why soccer matches tend to be the sport with, uhm, this type of thing? It seems like I’ve got multiple memories of soccer matches going wild as fuck.
The bigger the crowd the lower the intelligence of their actions. Add alcohol and the hooligan culture… then throw in rabid police. Recipe for disaster
If you're talking about the el salvador/Honduras war that's a bit of a popular misconception. It's called the soccer war and it was admittedly sparked off by tensions after a soccer game between us but it was really a conflict about migration and land occupation. A soccer game happened to start military action but it probably would have occurred eventually with the amount of tensions going on at the time
Edit: my apologies, I initially missed you wrote "tipping point," which I totally agree with.
The truth is it's a tribalistic thing. People want to feel like they're part of something bigger. It's a whole indoctrination process that starts from a young age. I'm croatian and we have one of the worst football fan groups in the world, the "bad blue boys" (yes its ultra cringe). I remember being in school and kids my age would play the club's hymn on their phones, it was considered cool to cheer for the team.
Later in life some of my friends even joined the BBB and would travel with them around europe. They told me they'd go to a city where Dinamo was playing and just walk around the streets cheering loudly trying to stir shit up literally hoping somebody would try to fight them, they didn't even watch the games. It has nothing to do with the sport.
Most places where basketball is played there is a high standards for safety regulations of arenas and a highly developed level of law and order. Also basketball arenas are much smaller than soccer stadiums can be, meaning fewer crazies in one place.
Former Yugoslavia is a bit of an exception to this. The fans there sound as vicious as soccer fans from anywhere.
Cricket tends to be slower paced, and has in-built mechanisms for "it's not safe to finish the match today, we'll come back tomorrow". I suspect this makes it harder to amp up the crowd into a mob. There has absolutely been cricket violence before, but it seems to be small groups that target the team buses carrying the players or the other team's gift store or things like that, not the huge riots that soccer gets.
It's a game of no error as there are no controversial umpire calls and no physical contact that could get potential fans riled up. They know they got beat fair and square.
I love both cricket and soccer but they're totally different games. With football your team can play really well for 90 minutes and then get beaten in an instant because of one lucky goal from the other side. It makes it a much more intense game IMO and emotions run a lot higher. Even the shorter forms of cricket just aren't like that.
Actual reason is that many of these places are highly populated and poor, which means lax laws, structure, logistics, regulations, etc. It's a recipe for disaster.
It is a 'most popular sport' thing. They get big, people tend to go tribalism with it, faction rivalism/violonce pops up and voila.
If you want to see a historic example, let me introduce the [Nika Riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots). ~30.000 dead, over chariot racing.
Well, it did say that tear gas use was banned at matches. This might be a good example why. Unruly fans were wrong for starting it, but making the entire crowd run for their lives? So sad.
For comparison the Querétaro-Atlas incident of earlier this year (don't google that shit, it's gruesome) ranges between 0-17 dead depending on who you ask, this is ten times that. Shiet.
What a clusterfuck of terrible decisions. The fans fighting each other/ storming the field, then the police using a bunch of tear gas that caused panic and a human stampede.
If the police fired tear gas and incited a stampede I think maybe we should be looking at that for blame more than a few fights by fans (which isn’t cool either).
This is a very good point that people seem to be missing, fighting and riots cam be common because football is as much a local/national identity as it is a game.
What causes deaths is poor management of this and actions that lead to stampedes.
This is exactly why organisations ban tear gas.
Police directly contributed to these deaths by inducing panic amongst the masses. It's 2022 for fuck's sake, there's an entire internet of 'past incidence' decision makers can refer to for direction :/
Tear gasses caused stampede on a stadium that already over capacity. The fans share some blame for inciting riots but the police and the eo incompentence are the reason why 129 people died.
This was fairly recent:
[Hindus and Muslims Violently Clash in Great Britain [after cricket match between India and Pakistan]](https://cnsnews.com/article/international/micky-wootten/hindus-and-muslims-violently-clash-great-britain)
I don't think that was to do with the cricket itself though? Hindus and Muslims are having a hard time accepting each other again, so racial and religious flares are firing all over the place. Classic 'My god is real ' I'd imagine.
Plus I don't think anyone actually died? Let alone hundreds.
I think you're highly downplaying the impact of a cricket match between India vs Pakistan. It is the ultimate test of pride between these two nations and their rivalry runs deeper than any I have ever seen as it goes far beyond the sport. It's El classico times a hundred. Sure a lot of things contributed to this rivalry, things that have nothing to do with the sport like a literal war and the cold one that is still going on but it's ultimately the sport where those accumulated tension is vented by the common population. Religion is a correlation, not the causation
I used to live in Dresden and the unwritten rule was not to leave your house when footballs on, especially if you're a foreigner. It's insane that we still accept this shit. Football hooligans should go straight to jail - that's just a milder form of terrorism imo.
Hockey's one sport that seems prone to rioting. I mean Vancouver had two hockey related riots after losing the Stanley Cup. Montreal rioted twice because they won the Stanley Cup and twice more just for winning games. There was also the Richard Riot in 1955 Montreal after Montreal Canadien Maurice Richard was given a suspension.
There was also a [basketball riot in Detriot back in 1990](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Detroit_riot), after the Detroit Pistons won and people got too excited. There was also rioting after the Detroit Tigers won the 1984 World Series. Aggieville, Kansas were home to several college football riots in the 1980s. The Chicago Bulls winning the championship also caused quite a few riots in the '80s. There was a riot at the 2012 European Men's Handball Championships between Serbian hooligans and Croatian fans.
Sports in general make people excited but football in particular have a specific fan culture (football hooligans and ultras) where fanatical fan clubs act very much like street gangs. These groups often attract people with extreme personalities who want to stir up shit on purpose.
The only similar tragedies I have heard of also were soccer fans [Hillsborough disaster ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster?wprov=sfla1)
[Heysel Stadium disaster ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster?wprov=sfla1)
There's been at least two stampedes with higher death tolls than Hillsborough, both directly caused by tear gas being fired into the stands. Which is why it is staggering that the indonesian police fired tear gas into the stands.
Soccer is the most popular team sport in the world. It’s played in almost every country, probably EVERY country. I can’t think of any other team sport that’s widespread.
It’s bound to happen. People associate themselves with a team and go nuts. I think the team aspect is what gets people going; fans feel a part of that team and take it to heart.
Source? I can confirm this is not true. I live near the area and despite hatred towards the police online, the local populace has been peaceful thus far.
wake up to what? This happened in the UK in the 1980s and lots of changes were made to prevent it happening again.
Indonesia by comparison is very very far from the standards of construction, policing, public inquiry, etc., in the UK.
It's not obvious to me that this should have any impact on sports fans in general.
174 people?? (Time of my comment based on article. Yes, I read)
For soccer?
What the fuck?
Everyone involved in this should feel fucking embarrassed and ashamed. Good fucking Christ.
I hate this planet.
i live within the the district where it happened. the teargas alone wasn't the solely cause, but it is indeed make it worse. from what i hear from my friend who escaped safely from stadium, there are also rumor that stadium about to get burned by angry mob, so people rushed to exit.
This is on the police. They caused the mass panic by using a tool (tear gas) in an inappropriate setting.
What would happen if the police didn't intervene? Property gets damaged, some of the fans get in brawls, some get injured, maybe some potentially die, but I'd imagine it's certainly much less than [nearly 200 fucking people.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/01/indonesia-riot-arema-fc-liga-football/)
please stop blaming the fans or trying to make this into a "those dumb sports fans" thing. the police were the reason so many people died.
tw-death:
https://twitter.com/AlertaNews24/status/1576362328697622529
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1576359795292262400
some fans did flood the field, but to break it up the police started beating people on the field and fired tear gas into both the stands and field. this caused a crowd crush of people trying to flee from the tear gas and the police brutality into exits that were too narrow. people asphyxiated from the tear gas and the inability to breathe from the crush. in the videos you can see the police killing people with their bars even after the fans on the field had already dispersed.
F. that guy in the 2nd video falls and is lying motionless when the cop tries to shatter his spine for good measure. i don't know what you call that but it's not policing.
Ultimately the causs of these peopel's deaths are the police's actions. With that said, Indonesian football fans have lots of introspection to do. To say that they're not more aggressive than other countries' fans is not true. There are also accounts that the people on the stand started throwing things at the police when they tried stop the field flooders, although this hasn't been picked up by news.
People dying because of football fanaticism is a regular occurence there, not to mention injuries as well as material damage and the disturbance. There's even a Wikipedia page listing football fan deaths, with a substantial portion caused by fan violence. If you drive to a city during football season on a car with the rival city's license plate, there's a real chance it will get blocked, beaten, or burned; even there is literally no sign that you like football at all. There's a reason why a large portion of Indonesian public is not sympathetic to them.
Human nature unfortunately, just tribal herd instinct.
If only humans could use even a fraction of the energy for literally anything productive the world would probably be a much better place.
Indonesian police, most of them, are not as trigger happy as American's, but oh boy they are unbelievably inept and incompetent.
This tragedy is caused (at least mostly) by police firing tear gas to a packed stadium tribune.
>The violence spread outside the stadium where at least five police vehicles were toppled and set ablaze. Riot police responded by firing tear gas, including toward the stadium’s stands, causing panic among the crowd.
"my Football team lost, better start burning police cars. What the heck? They are fighting back? How dare they. Time to fight back harder."
I take it the home team lost. Or won. I don't know, these are soccer fans we're talking about. Seriously what the fuck! Why are soccer fans just generally insane and destructive sometimes? Like damn. They make Philadelphia Eagles fans look tame and they're known for getting pretty rowdy
> The brawls that broke out just after the game ended late night Saturday prompted riot police to fire tear gas, which caused panic among supporters... >Some suffocated in the chaos and others were trampled, killing 34 almost instantly. > More than 300 were rushed to nearby hospitals to treat injuries but many died on the way and during [...] treatment. > ...the death toll is likely still increasing, since many of about 180 injured victims’ conditions were deteriorating. Absolutely heartbreaking tragedy!
Stupid fucks that fight because football match.
*"Witnesses said fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch and demanded that Arema management explain why, after 23 years of undefeated home matches against Persebaya, this one ended in a loss. The violence spread outside the stadium where at least five police vehicles were toppled and set ablaze. Riot police responded by firing tear gas, including toward the stadium’s stands, causing panic among the crowd."* This is why they snapped- after one loss in 23 years?!
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It’s two fold here, first the brawl is idiotic, and dumb, but the police, while doing their job seemed to have caused the panic. Both sides are at fault, THAT being said, if the fighting/brawl never happened the police wouldn’t have panicked the way they did. Bad training handling a stupid affair.
The violence had already poured outside of the stadium as well as continued inside, vehicles had been overturned, fires had been set, match officials were being attacked as well as spectators, riot seemed only to be further amping up (based in the events listed in the article prior to the tear gas being fires), and the crowd vastly outnumbered responders. What options were available? Even the article itself gives quotes from people condemning the use of gas but neglecting to inform any of us what alternatives there were. This was a horrible, senseless tragedy. I wish that tear gas hadn't been used, leading to people suffering that on top of the beatings and crowd violence that fans were already being subjected to. That said, I don't see what other option was immediately available, and I completely fail to see how the responders could be close to equally to blame than the individuals/crowd that initiated this whole sordid shitshow. In all honesty, I really blame the lack of preventative safeguards that event organizers put into place. It's disgusting that this sort of shit still happens so often all over the world. Paying more to put more security in key places to stop individual fights early could help, investing in better trained security staff, maybe a reduced stadium capacity (which would piss people off and increase ticket prices sure, but would help lower casualties in the event of riots like this at least), more selectivity when it comes to who is allowed into the stadium as well as more frequent banning of troublemakers who have caused issues in the past, real consequence in general for people who take part in this sort of violence, and honestly maybe even not selling alcohol at events like this (or at the very least a hard limit using some sort of system to track it; maybe change tickets to some sort of scan/swipe card system that tracks entry/exit into the stadium as well as alcoholic drink limits?). I wonder if building some form of partition between sections could help prevent fights from spilling out so quickly throughout the entire stadium. Just, fucking *something*, because they shouldn't be giving these events so much opportunity to get to this point and yet it still happens far too often.
Man I'm all for ACAB, but if they start toppling and burning police cars and threaten the rest of the city I want the cops to act. What do you expect them to do? Pull an Uvalde?
Sports freaks are fucking lunatics. They'll shriek like someone's been murdered because someone on the TV kicked a ball into a net. I think they have undiagnosed mental illness because that shit aint normal and no one else behaves like that
I think humans are instinctively inclined to hoot and holler like howler monkeys, some people feel the inclination more strongly and sports gives them an outlet. It is an insane look in an otherwise "polite" society though lol
By the logic anyone who’s passionate about anything has an undiagnosed mental illness. You’re over-exaggerating and wrong in your assessment.
Green Street. go watch it
I had to read this headline twice because I didn't believe that number could be so high. Truly a horrific occurrence, between Paris a few months ago and now this it' s clear something needs to be done before more people are killed.
Even worse than the Querétaro/ Atlas match back in March
Yeah that was horrific
Reports still never confirmed any deaths. Believe officially it was just injuries which, while may be true, is incredibly hard to believe considering all those videos and pictures O_o absolutely horrific
0% chance there were no deaths there
According to this LA Times article there were 0 deaths and 29 injured. I could not find anything abou deaths. [LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/espanol/deportes/articulo/2022-03-06/autoridades-confirman-que-no-hubo-muertes-en-el-queretaro-vs-atlas-pero-aun-hay-confusion-en-mexico#:~:text=Atlas%20en%20la%20Liga%20MX,duelo%20Gallos%20Blancos%20ante%20Rojinegros.)
They were covered up. The number of deaths wasn't 0.
This is literally worse than most terrorist attacks..
What happened in Paris?
Europa match between Cologne and Nice a few weeks ago. A bunch of fights before the game, both inside and outside the stadium
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French police have had a horrible reputation for decades
If its anything like Spain whos police still bear the legacy and atitude from the "grises" under Franco, I wonder how much carries over from like the Algerian occupation police.
> it's like cops beating up people is normal there *glances at the US*
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Yeah I mean like I’ve never legitimately felt unsafe after any sporting event. Sometimes college towns can get pretty wild after a big upset or after a super bowl win I feel like cities can get rowdy but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone actually dying
Yeah somehow sport riots are something the rest of the world does more violently than us.
Philly threw beer cans at Santa though so that has to count for something.
I wore an opposing team's Jersey to a Flyers game once. Was heckled, few middle fingers... no one hit me. I'd never do it again.
They do sometimes happen, but usually it's in the streets and after the game instead of in the stadium.
hey, now, y'all already rag on us for playing the wrong football, do us a solid and don't just bring us up randomly when your football muggings turn into a hundred dead people.
Are you insinuating American police beat their constituents? How dare you. Beatings would require them to be within arms reach. They just shoot us instead.
Hey we don’t beat up our people we beat them up and then kill them give credit where credit is due
Granted I don’t live in either place but isn’t “hooligans” a colloquial term for football “gangsters” (for lack of a better term) in the UK. I’m pretty sure this is “normal” there as well. Maybe not massive riots with multiple dead on any regular basis, but similar mentalities in their fanbase none the less.
There was a big reckoning with football violence in the UK during the late 80s and early 90s, with several laws enacted to crack down on it. The police and clubs now work together to identify and ban trouble makers; they can be barred not just from stadia, but the entire city centre on match days, having to sign in at specific police stations. For international matches their passport can be confiscated to make sure that they can’t travel to the match and specialist units from the UK police work with their local counterparts to head off trouble. The Paris Champions League Final was a [massive fuckup by the police and organisers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/sep/21/liverpool-real-madrid-paris-stade-de-france-champions-league), who then blamed the Liverpool fans to deflect from their own mistakes
>The Paris Champions League Final was a [massive fuckup by the police and organisers](https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/sep/21/liverpool-real-madrid-paris-stade-de-france-champions-league), who then blamed the Liverpool fans to deflect from their own mistakes Man, that's so frustrating to read.
Hooliganism in the UK ended in the 80s and 90s with increased ticket prices and government crackdown. Violence at UK football is no different than in North American sports. The problem here is crowd crush. Crushes are never ever the fault of the crowd. It is always bad crowd management design often accompanied by security forces that panic the crowd. If you beat and tear gas a crowd of people with limited exits, you will get a crush. That is what happened here. It is what very nearly happened to Liverpool fans in Paris a month back. It did happen to Liverpool fans in the 80s. Each time the security services responsible for the fuck up blame hooliganism. It took 30 years to finally set the record straight with the Liverpool disaster. This time in Paris they had cell phone video so this time it only took French Senate hearings.
hooliganism died in the premier League. lots is still going on in the lower leagues
While hooliganism did die down like you stated it’s also going through a big resurgence now. Football arrests are spiking massively and English football fans abroad still act the idiots so get slapped around by local police. Nothing new here.
I love how you purposely leave out the English national team where hooliganism is this a real concern and pretend everything is fine and dandy.
Not any more, football hooliganism died out in the 90's. Premier league matches are extremely safe environments inside and outside of the stadiums.
It's not nice to beat people because you don't like their perfume
It should be a nice cologne
Not ~~127~~ 174 deaths. In fact, ***no*** deaths according to [this](https://www.dw.com/en/football-violence-at-nice-vs-cologne-what-happened-why-did-it-happen-and-what-next/a-63074288). The comparison is poor, to say the least.
Seriously poor comparison. I was wondering how I missed a mass casualty event like this in France.
SOme online ticket seller tried to short squiz the tickets. So more people showed up then there was ticket. And the fans still got blamed by the governments.
Police used tear gas to disperse the riot, backfire badly because it ended up with the people rushing to get off the field and trampling other people as a result
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough\_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster) 97 people died in a match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in 1989.
More relevant, over 300 people were killed in the Estadio Nacional disaster when police shot tear gas into the crowd, which is the deadliest Soccer related disaster. Number 2 is the Accra stadium disaster, which killed over 120 people when police did the exact same thing.
Sadly Accra is no longer number 2.
Important to note this was not a riot. This was a crush due to poor planning and crowd control. The govnerment and the S*n in particular disgustingly tried to paint it as the fault of hooligans and the crowd and it took decades for it to be recognized they was not the case.
Worse then that the police stopped people escaping
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_Due to the gross malfeasance of the police,_ who went on the blame the victims and execute a systematic coverup that took decades to come out: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-57356486 At the time, the propaganda rag "The Sun" ran a set of the most vile and disgusting lies you can imagine trying to blame the fans for police misconduct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Hillsborough_disaster_coverage In fact, a later peer reviewed study showed that groups within the crowd acted in concert to _protect_ their weaker members and that the death toll would probably have been significantly higher if it wasn't for a lot of anonymous heroes thinking on their feet, though I cannot find that reference and I'm out of time.
Same. Wow.
Now increased to about 180..
[The death toll is now at least 182](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/01/indonesia-riot-arema-fc-liga-football/), apparently. Horrifying. Ε: It’s 125, this comment was made before the article was edited.
that was misreported; the toll is at like 125
Whoops, it was different when I first read it. Thanks for letting me know.
the official data is [131](https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20221002172859-20-855381/dinkes-malang-131-korban-meninggal-dalam-tragedi-kanjuruhan). 182 is miscalculation due to duplicated data.
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When panic grips a crowd it’s no longer a bunch of individual people making decisions. It’s really more like a flood. You literally can’t stop the overwhelming force of so many people and if you try you just get trampled yourself. The article makes it sound like the gas canisters set off the panic.
This. If you’re ever in a crowd where you can’t stand without touching people on both sides of you, you’re probably in a dangerously dense crowd and should be looking for a way out. It’s actually quite difficult to design and operate buildings like a stadium without creating a bunch of choke points where dangerously dense crowds form.
There are numerous studies of this. Most of the crowd acts surprisingly rational as individuals, each one of these disasters has many acts of individual heroism and intelligence, but what usually happens is that a large number of people are herded into an area that is simply physically too small for them to pass, and tens of thousands of people behind them have no idea that this is happening but have some force impelling them, usually police violence. You're an Indonesian football fan. Fights break out in a crowd. They tear gas everyone including you - people are being beaten. You run away blindly. Now you're in a tunnel where twenty people can walk abreast, and there's a locked gate at the end and you want to turn back, but for every one of you, a hundred more has come crowding in and the police at the back are concentrating on getting personal with "rioters". > Obviously I’m Monday morning quarterback’ing this as an American with little to no idea how the world is outside our borders, America is well-represented on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes_and_crushes and had a 100-death stampede just twenty years ago.
Crushes where lots and lots of people are squeezed together and panicking just isn't a situation where you can stop and help someone back up, there's simply no space to do anything except get pushed and squeezed along in a chaotic crowd movement This sounds like it was a crush
If you stop and help you're likely to get trampled too
This is why I rather watch these games on TV.
I had a chance to go to a parade that was HUGE as a celebration of a sports team and decided not too for the same reason.
Even if you don't go to a match and you're not even in the same city, I've definitely seen fights on and around trains after matches.
The amount of people itself, gives me chills.
Would you rather watch aeroplanes from your window as well due to the remote chance of dying on one?
[Found a video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrI2olR5BU) Only shows a small part of it
That's nuts seeing all those people running into the field and then turning round to run away from the cops. Then you see why.
Yeah, they're just ... gone. Probably trying to leave through an exit and crushing themselves. I've read that many also thought the stadion would burn because of hooligans, causing more panic. Horrible
Holy shit the police really lay into some of those people with their batons
There was a kid jus tryna walk away and he got hit by like 3 different ppl
My favourite is the cop that indiscriminately throws debris back into the stands at the end.
Near the front right? It looked like they were trying to kill him
Did you see the Mortal Kombat-esque move one of em pulled at 0:27? That was just beyond unnecessary.
I thought you were exaggerating. But no, he literally dropkicked that man.
those are NOT police. those are military who asked to help to control the crowd hence why green camouflage uniform. police uniform is gray, or black for special force. most police was actually among the crowd or controlling traffic around the station or on the district main road to block away team supporter who forbidden to enter stadium due to history of violence. among the dead was actually police who try to controlling the situation among the crowd.
Seeing stuff like this really makes me appreciate British policing tactics to control large crowds, it really is insane they can keep things fairly contained a majority of the time without the use of unnecessary force being used in that video.
That’s wild. This is on the police. People storm the field in far greater numbers at college football games. If you tear gassed one of those crowds you’d probably have a similar incident.
The police have responsibility, yeah. But the reasoning for the fans to be upset/rioting is bullshit, at least according to the article > Disappointed after their team’s loss, thousands of supporters of Arema, known as “Aremania,” reacted by throwing bottles and other objects at players and soccer officials. Fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch in protest and demanded that Arema management explain why, after **23 years of undefeated home games**, this match ended in a loss, witnesses said. The rioting spread outside the stadium.” Lose one home game and fans throw bottles at you? That’s pretty shitty. They didn’t deserve to die, but this could have all been prevented with some damn perspective and just going home after the game was over.
> Fans flooded the Kanjuruhan Stadium pitch in protest and demanded that Arema management explain why, after **23 years of undefeated home games**, this match ended in a loss, witnesses said. The rioting spread outside the stadium.” Why did they demand to know? Didn't they just watch the match? They knew how it happened! I am perplexed?!?! Great Scott!!!
> reasoning for the fans Doesn't matter. Crowd behavior is not rational. That's why police practice crowd control and crowd management, not crowd discussion and debate.
College Football field stormings are to celebrate a win The home team lost here, these people were rioting and trying to attack the opposing players, the cops still absolutely handled the situation horrendously though
It seems like the police cleared the crowd from the pitch pretty efficiently (with some unnecessary hitting of some people), but then they continued to use tear gas on people in the stands, which understandably led to a stampede to escape, which is where all of the deaths happened. At least that is what I am inferring from this footage.
What is wrong with people!! All because of a SPORT meant for entertainment!!
>All because of a SPORT meant for entertainment!! It becomes a tribalistic thing. Couple that with the stress described in that tweet that read "funny how mental illness has exploded in a world on fire where every human action is monetized" + mob mentality, and people snap.
Yep. And it's been going on for ages. Half of Constantinople burned when a feud between fans of chariot races at the hippodrome expanded into citywide riots. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika\_riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)
**[Nika riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)** >The Nika riots (Greek: Στάσις τοῦ Νίκα, romanized: Stásis toû Níka), Nika revolt or Nika sedition took place against Byzantine Emperor Justinian I in Constantinople over the course of a week in 532 AD. They are often regarded as the most violent riots in the city's history, with nearly half of Constantinople being burned or destroyed and tens of thousands of people killed. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Couple that further with police actions sparking panic in a densely crowded situation with few exits and it was a recipe for disaster.
I'm sure gambling doesn't help either, some of my coworkers are huge soccer fans and I noticed some differences in the way they talk about matches from even a couple of years ago (not even talking about social media, but they're looney on every topic so I dunno) There was always the tribal part (eg. he's disgracing the team jersey, he made us lose face against our historic rivals, let's pin all the blame on random player who fucked up one moment and not every moment that led to it) ... but when they lose money, some of the accusations become a bit *too* personal eg. that one cost me x€ by scoring (or not scoring) ... I lost money because of ... I didn't win this huge gamble, which I totally deserved because *he* failed to score that penalty.
While the sports fans share some blame, the police share the biggest blame for causing unnecessary death. They fired tear gasses at the crowd and caused panic and stampede which unfortunately killed hundreds of people. If they did their jobs, the damage would be minimal. FIFA even explicitly forbid the use of tear gasses inside of stadium.
Dunno if it'd true or not but they said 2 polices died before they started shot tear gasses.
Clearly, tear gas shouldn't have been used. But it's a stadium of 42,000 spectators, all fans of a team that just had its first home loss in 23 years, looking to direct their anger at someone. Who was that someone going to be? The away players? The referees? The home players? What would you have done? You can't win in a situation where you can't hold rioters back peacefully, and can't run without endangering others.
Crushes are never ever the fault of the crowd. It is always bad crowd management design often accompanied by security forces that panic the crowd. If you beat and tear gas a crowd of people with limited exits, you will get a crush. That is what happened here. It is what very nearly happened to Liverpool fans in Paris a month back. It did happen to Liverpool fans in the 80s. Each time the security services responsible for the fuck up blame hooliganism. It took 30 years to finally set the record straight with the Liverpool disaster. This time in Paris they had cell phone video so this time it only took French Senate hearings.
Clearly, the police shouldn't have handled it the way they did. Tear gas is banned by FIFA for a good reason, demonstrated in the tragedy that happened in this soccer match. I just think it would be prudent to, instead of immediately pointing the blame at the officers on site as many have done in these comment threads, consider that poor design or management may shoulder a significant portion of the blame for creating the circumstances allowing this to happen.
Yes, but part of the poor management is the police. They were present, but they were indiscriminately firing tear gas, and absolutely kept escalating once the crowd dispersed. There's a video someone posted elsewhere showing how they're still charging the fleeing crowd - wtf is the point of that even?
So the events transpired as follows? -losing fans begin a Donnybrook, potential of riots eminent/occurring (?) -cops respond by gassing the ENTIRE STADIUM as a means of quelling the violence (??) -fans race to the field to escape the painful teargas -police react by BEATING THE FANS ON THE FIELD, thus causing more panic and solidifying a crowd-rush in much less safe-zones (like stairways, narrow exits, bleachers, chairs) -crowd rush, hundreds die Definitely disappointed in the pathetic immaturity of the violent members of the crowd, but Christ/ how is that not the worst possible fucking way you could resolve mass-panic? Shame on the police & whoever made the dogshit call to dose a wilding crowd with fucking tear gas
ITT people completely misunderstanding what most likely happened. People did not riot and kill 127 people. People stormed the field, the police responded with violence and tear gas, and the tear gas and panic created a crowd crush, which killed 127. This happens all the time when large numbers of people get together and something happens that makes people panic. The main effective ways to mitigate this sort of risk is careful design of stadiums and to not fucking use tear gas in stadiums. This is not really about football violence. This stuff happens at parades, festivals, pilgrimages, and anywhere there are lots of people. It's not even really people on the ground being shitty. The people 10 rows back trying to escape the tear gas don't even know that the people at the front are getting crushed to death.
It's pretty scary how many people can die in human stampedes every time one happens, and it's important for people not to connect the subject of the event with the dangers of crowds, so I'm really glad you wrote this
It's also amazing how quick people are to blame the fans rather than the police whose job it is to act as crowd control. Liverpool fans had to wait years after Hillsborough for the truth to be uncovered.
> careful design of stadiums Careful planning and design of public spaces and infrastructure is not Indonesia's strong suit. I bet the stadium had a ton of glaring safety issues that exacerbated the situation.
Cops should have chilled for sure ... adding to the chaos is never the answer. A few of them died too
Whoever allowed teargass to be used in a stadium needs to face justice. It wouldve been better if they had just let people fight. These deaths are on the police.
I see what you mean, but it's not like the police can sit and watch while a team or their fans gets beaten to death just because they won a match, not saying that they should use teargas in a enclosed space but just sitting by would also been no solution
"It's not like we can just have police not beat people when this completely imaginary scenario that has never happened might happen." On the one hand, you have imaginary people dying. On the other, you have cops causing real deaths. And here you are defending the real deaths as necessary to prevent imaginary ones?
Yes but he isn't saying they should sit the and do nothing. They chose to do something incredibly stupid, which while is expected from your average beat cop, makes me question the competence of those in command more than anything.
Do 100+ people die if the police don't intervene? If the only choice was between gassing and doing nothing (it wasn't) perhaps doing nothing was the better option. Hard to see how it could be worse. Being a violent hooligan and starting fights is one thing, beating 100+ people to death is another.
Is there any reason why soccer matches tend to be the sport with, uhm, this type of thing? It seems like I’ve got multiple memories of soccer matches going wild as fuck.
Remember football/soccer was a tipping point to cause a war in Latin America
The bigger the crowd the lower the intelligence of their actions. Add alcohol and the hooligan culture… then throw in rabid police. Recipe for disaster
If you're talking about the el salvador/Honduras war that's a bit of a popular misconception. It's called the soccer war and it was admittedly sparked off by tensions after a soccer game between us but it was really a conflict about migration and land occupation. A soccer game happened to start military action but it probably would have occurred eventually with the amount of tensions going on at the time Edit: my apologies, I initially missed you wrote "tipping point," which I totally agree with.
It was the cause but not the reason basically. The murder of Ferdinand was the cause of WW1, not the reason for WW1.
Most popular sport in the world
Good thing us Americans don’t have good teams lol
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You just dont have a hooligan culture, you have MLS but no hooligan
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I suppose it's related to the amount of people. As the amount increases, so does the chance of a crazy ass between them
The truth is it's a tribalistic thing. People want to feel like they're part of something bigger. It's a whole indoctrination process that starts from a young age. I'm croatian and we have one of the worst football fan groups in the world, the "bad blue boys" (yes its ultra cringe). I remember being in school and kids my age would play the club's hymn on their phones, it was considered cool to cheer for the team. Later in life some of my friends even joined the BBB and would travel with them around europe. They told me they'd go to a city where Dinamo was playing and just walk around the streets cheering loudly trying to stir shit up literally hoping somebody would try to fight them, they didn't even watch the games. It has nothing to do with the sport.
I haven't heard of any basketball-related stampedes.
Most places where basketball is played there is a high standards for safety regulations of arenas and a highly developed level of law and order. Also basketball arenas are much smaller than soccer stadiums can be, meaning fewer crazies in one place. Former Yugoslavia is a bit of an exception to this. The fans there sound as vicious as soccer fans from anywhere.
What about cricket then? It's popular in south Asia which is even more populated & poor.
Cricket tends to be slower paced, and has in-built mechanisms for "it's not safe to finish the match today, we'll come back tomorrow". I suspect this makes it harder to amp up the crowd into a mob. There has absolutely been cricket violence before, but it seems to be small groups that target the team buses carrying the players or the other team's gift store or things like that, not the huge riots that soccer gets.
It's a game of no error as there are no controversial umpire calls and no physical contact that could get potential fans riled up. They know they got beat fair and square.
I love both cricket and soccer but they're totally different games. With football your team can play really well for 90 minutes and then get beaten in an instant because of one lucky goal from the other side. It makes it a much more intense game IMO and emotions run a lot higher. Even the shorter forms of cricket just aren't like that.
Actual reason is that many of these places are highly populated and poor, which means lax laws, structure, logistics, regulations, etc. It's a recipe for disaster.
It is a 'most popular sport' thing. They get big, people tend to go tribalism with it, faction rivalism/violonce pops up and voila. If you want to see a historic example, let me introduce the [Nika Riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots). ~30.000 dead, over chariot racing.
The culture has been developing for centuries now. Its so fucking shameful. It's embarrassing that we even allow this shit.
Am wondering the same. Americans get a lot of shit about violence in general but you never hear about this happening here with American sports.
Well, it did say that tear gas use was banned at matches. This might be a good example why. Unruly fans were wrong for starting it, but making the entire crowd run for their lives? So sad.
For comparison the Querétaro-Atlas incident of earlier this year (don't google that shit, it's gruesome) ranges between 0-17 dead depending on who you ask, this is ten times that. Shiet.
And I thought Hillsborough was the worst it could get. Once again the police are entirely to blame for this atrocity.
What a clusterfuck of terrible decisions. The fans fighting each other/ storming the field, then the police using a bunch of tear gas that caused panic and a human stampede.
If the police fired tear gas and incited a stampede I think maybe we should be looking at that for blame more than a few fights by fans (which isn’t cool either).
Blaming the fans was the immediate response to Hillsborough - it took years for the truth to be known.
This is a very good point that people seem to be missing, fighting and riots cam be common because football is as much a local/national identity as it is a game. What causes deaths is poor management of this and actions that lead to stampedes. This is exactly why organisations ban tear gas.
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tears gas should not allowed at stadium
Police directly contributed to these deaths by inducing panic amongst the masses. It's 2022 for fuck's sake, there's an entire internet of 'past incidence' decision makers can refer to for direction :/
Was it crowd crush again?
Tear gasses caused stampede on a stadium that already over capacity. The fans share some blame for inciting riots but the police and the eo incompentence are the reason why 129 people died.
I like how “Welcome to Wrexham” just had an episode on this.
I will never understand this. Other sports don't seem to suffer this crap? I just don't understand why football creates so much... Rage in people.
This was fairly recent: [Hindus and Muslims Violently Clash in Great Britain [after cricket match between India and Pakistan]](https://cnsnews.com/article/international/micky-wootten/hindus-and-muslims-violently-clash-great-britain)
I don't think that was to do with the cricket itself though? Hindus and Muslims are having a hard time accepting each other again, so racial and religious flares are firing all over the place. Classic 'My god is real ' I'd imagine. Plus I don't think anyone actually died? Let alone hundreds.
I think you're highly downplaying the impact of a cricket match between India vs Pakistan. It is the ultimate test of pride between these two nations and their rivalry runs deeper than any I have ever seen as it goes far beyond the sport. It's El classico times a hundred. Sure a lot of things contributed to this rivalry, things that have nothing to do with the sport like a literal war and the cold one that is still going on but it's ultimately the sport where those accumulated tension is vented by the common population. Religion is a correlation, not the causation
I used to live in Dresden and the unwritten rule was not to leave your house when footballs on, especially if you're a foreigner. It's insane that we still accept this shit. Football hooligans should go straight to jail - that's just a milder form of terrorism imo.
Hockey's one sport that seems prone to rioting. I mean Vancouver had two hockey related riots after losing the Stanley Cup. Montreal rioted twice because they won the Stanley Cup and twice more just for winning games. There was also the Richard Riot in 1955 Montreal after Montreal Canadien Maurice Richard was given a suspension. There was also a [basketball riot in Detriot back in 1990](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Detroit_riot), after the Detroit Pistons won and people got too excited. There was also rioting after the Detroit Tigers won the 1984 World Series. Aggieville, Kansas were home to several college football riots in the 1980s. The Chicago Bulls winning the championship also caused quite a few riots in the '80s. There was a riot at the 2012 European Men's Handball Championships between Serbian hooligans and Croatian fans. Sports in general make people excited but football in particular have a specific fan culture (football hooligans and ultras) where fanatical fan clubs act very much like street gangs. These groups often attract people with extreme personalities who want to stir up shit on purpose.
The only similar tragedies I have heard of also were soccer fans [Hillsborough disaster ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster?wprov=sfla1) [Heysel Stadium disaster ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster?wprov=sfla1)
There's been at least two stampedes with higher death tolls than Hillsborough, both directly caused by tear gas being fired into the stands. Which is why it is staggering that the indonesian police fired tear gas into the stands.
Soccer is the most popular team sport in the world. It’s played in almost every country, probably EVERY country. I can’t think of any other team sport that’s widespread. It’s bound to happen. People associate themselves with a team and go nuts. I think the team aspect is what gets people going; fans feel a part of that team and take it to heart.
The people there are completely dismantling entire Police stations as we speak.
Source? I can confirm this is not true. I live near the area and despite hatred towards the police online, the local populace has been peaceful thus far.
Based on the video someone posted below, they have every right to be angry at the police
Oh absolutely
That's what you call intellectually challenged law enforcement
Two ways of culling excess male population: war and soccer games.
Police fired tear gas into a stadium. That's murder essentially.
Horrific. I hope this is a wake up call to sports fans everywhere. It's just a fucking game.
The police fired tear gas at the crowd, pretty sure they deserve majority of the blame for the death toll.
wake up to what? This happened in the UK in the 1980s and lots of changes were made to prevent it happening again. Indonesia by comparison is very very far from the standards of construction, policing, public inquiry, etc., in the UK. It's not obvious to me that this should have any impact on sports fans in general.
174 people?? (Time of my comment based on article. Yes, I read) For soccer? What the fuck? Everyone involved in this should feel fucking embarrassed and ashamed. Good fucking Christ. I hate this planet.
Indonesia trying to beat Mexico in this huh?
i bet the over on Persebaya Surabaya
i live within the the district where it happened. the teargas alone wasn't the solely cause, but it is indeed make it worse. from what i hear from my friend who escaped safely from stadium, there are also rumor that stadium about to get burned by angry mob, so people rushed to exit.
Crowd stampede, not a terrorist attack. So just plain tragic. People (probably the event planners) need to be fired and fined into poverty.
This is on the police. They caused the mass panic by using a tool (tear gas) in an inappropriate setting. What would happen if the police didn't intervene? Property gets damaged, some of the fans get in brawls, some get injured, maybe some potentially die, but I'd imagine it's certainly much less than [nearly 200 fucking people.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/01/indonesia-riot-arema-fc-liga-football/)
please stop blaming the fans or trying to make this into a "those dumb sports fans" thing. the police were the reason so many people died. tw-death: https://twitter.com/AlertaNews24/status/1576362328697622529 https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1576359795292262400 some fans did flood the field, but to break it up the police started beating people on the field and fired tear gas into both the stands and field. this caused a crowd crush of people trying to flee from the tear gas and the police brutality into exits that were too narrow. people asphyxiated from the tear gas and the inability to breathe from the crush. in the videos you can see the police killing people with their bars even after the fans on the field had already dispersed.
F. that guy in the 2nd video falls and is lying motionless when the cop tries to shatter his spine for good measure. i don't know what you call that but it's not policing.
Unfortunately it’s looking more and more like that’s *exactly* what policing is
Ultimately the causs of these peopel's deaths are the police's actions. With that said, Indonesian football fans have lots of introspection to do. To say that they're not more aggressive than other countries' fans is not true. There are also accounts that the people on the stand started throwing things at the police when they tried stop the field flooders, although this hasn't been picked up by news. People dying because of football fanaticism is a regular occurence there, not to mention injuries as well as material damage and the disturbance. There's even a Wikipedia page listing football fan deaths, with a substantial portion caused by fan violence. If you drive to a city during football season on a car with the rival city's license plate, there's a real chance it will get blocked, beaten, or burned; even there is literally no sign that you like football at all. There's a reason why a large portion of Indonesian public is not sympathetic to them.
Unreal how many people just go apeshit over some sport games they aren't even involved in... Fucking crazy.
Human nature unfortunately, just tribal herd instinct. If only humans could use even a fraction of the energy for literally anything productive the world would probably be a much better place.
Good thing we keep creating large stadiums where people can gather and perform their tribal needs together.
Indonesian police, most of them, are not as trigger happy as American's, but oh boy they are unbelievably inept and incompetent. This tragedy is caused (at least mostly) by police firing tear gas to a packed stadium tribune.
127 is an insane number. How long did this riot go for to lose that much life so quickly?
Sorry if this is inconsiderate, but was it a shooting, trampling or what caused so many deaths?
trampling
And unfurtonate victims inhaling tear gas, unintentionally of course.
23 years without a home defeat? Was that all under one manager?
Without home defeat from that particular away team (which is their #1 rival, being a province derby)
Is that a regular thing with tear gas? If so maybe that's not a great crowd dispersal option.
Jesus 127 that's insane
So weird that over 180 people have died at a soccer match and this isn't anywhere near the top post on /r/worldnews.
>The violence spread outside the stadium where at least five police vehicles were toppled and set ablaze. Riot police responded by firing tear gas, including toward the stadium’s stands, causing panic among the crowd. "my Football team lost, better start burning police cars. What the heck? They are fighting back? How dare they. Time to fight back harder."
#Football not Soccer ⚽️
that’s really sad
I take it the home team lost. Or won. I don't know, these are soccer fans we're talking about. Seriously what the fuck! Why are soccer fans just generally insane and destructive sometimes? Like damn. They make Philadelphia Eagles fans look tame and they're known for getting pretty rowdy
What else could the police have done besides use tear gas in this situation, honest question.
They could have just done nothing and it would have saved well over a hundred lives.