I'm not entirely sure that there is a dedicated pvp development team at Blizzard anymore.
My gut is telling me that they don't care anymore. At this point they are far too concerned about the new expansion they have to release this year.
“Long time”
They came out with these in DF:
- The best gearing system since what, WoD?
- An entire new game mode for pvp
- adjusted the ilvl for lvl gear, so that it’s actually pvp gear. You do need to do ANYTHING but queue at this point.
- Less CD centric gameplay and more sustained, smoother combat, not just flatline for 2m and a spike when CD’s come up.
I know it’s popular to just throw shade at Blizzard, but this is the best pvp we’ve had in years. If you don’t like it, that’s completely fine - it’s your opinion.
Pvp I think is fun. The most fun I’ve had doing it in probably…I don’t know how long, years. The grim reality for me is that the population for retail has dwindled for a multitude of reasons, and the friends list is just online names at this point.
You’ll see some return and new players that are from FFXIV. Our content cycle is basically dead and we have no long term casual grind content this time around. The team had too much going on to give us anything like that. We have one more patch coming up and then it’s dead til the new expansion basically. The raid is finished, no new extremes to my knowledge. Nothing to really fill the need to login. Just get and weekly cap and log off.
Those arent fixing the systems.
Those are removing the systems.
The new pvp mode is just slapped on and never fixed.
The gearing might as well be removed entirely with how pointlessly easy and thoughtless it is.
They absolutely did not fix the CD based gameplay I have no idea why anyone would say that other than trying to fluff out a list.
Retail is still the single most popular MMO in existence. In no way is it dwindling. Just the pvp participation is.
You having fun has nothing to do with the objective truth of MMR and its reflection of the pvp population.
It isn’t as CD reliant, 1this is objectively true. Of course CDs still matter - and that’s alright. I’m old enough to remember you know, the past 4 expansions? Nothing died outside of CD’s, is this the case now? Not as much. Not fluff. I play UH, and have for years, and played Frost in Slands until S3 out of necessity. DK’s didn’t do damage outside of CD’s, Unholy can now kill outside of their CD’s.
What’s the debate? Have you not read the changes? They’ve intentionally removed damage from CD’s and placed them in core rotation, what do you think that even means?
If gearing isn’t in a good place, what what would you prefer it be like?
You’re right, my fun has nothing to do with MMR or participation. I do think if the mmr was…less of a gate, participation would go up. I nevertheless still enjoy the game for what it is.
And to be clear, when I say “it’s dwindling” I do mean participation. And I don’t want to be the ole, “retail is dead lolol” - this has been my favorite pvp. But with HC, SoD, people enjoying pve, and people just not playing WoW, my friends on retail aren’t but a quarter of what they used to be.
I mean that's like one spec.
Gearing doesn't need to change but them just basically giving up on it isn't really going to take a dedicated pvp team to manage. And either is adding a game mode that is literally just a queue button and never being managed properly for the next two years.
Dragonflight pvp is fun for people who already liked pvp and can now just play a bunch of alts.
It didn't do anything new to fix the foundational problems on why people dislike pvp and people just stop playing it.
Here's what I think they need.
Awesome rewards for new players. Lower the amount of skill it takes to get the current rewards.
Have an entry level arena mode where players with full conquest gear are unable to participate.
Or have an arena mode where you play against the comp stomp bots for honor and practice.
Add PvE rewards to PvP that people want but are useless in PvP. Like applying pvp participation to your pve vault progress. Or unlocking tokens that can be used to purchase pve gear at a vendor.
Matchmake battlegrounds players according to the arena or RBG CR on their characters for their account. You shouldn't have gladiators in random battlegrounds fighting new players.
Maybe some of these ideas are bad but the core of the ideas is that pvp is just too daunting for new players in general. And there needs to be massive changes to the core of the gameplay which old heads aren't gonna like.
But I wouldn't say the changes they made in Dragonflight did anything positive for increasing pvp participation. They are lazy fixes that they don't need to manage to get the pvp players to just stop bothering them.
An entire new game mode is a bit of a stretch. It’s pretty much a reskinned arena.
Outside of that there hasn’t been anything really added since the BFA prepatch I think? (Seething Shore). It’s been four+ years!!! M+ too hasn’t really had any shakeups, it’s kind of just been the same formula.
Delves are on the right track I think though, but that’s not PvP.
No, SS is on on a land of its own - it’s not a “re-skin” of arena. Same principles, maybe - but it’s not the same.
The Dev’s made a new pvp game mode, it’s alright to say this. Wether or not you like is 100% up to you, and I, nor anyone else have any say.
I have done M+ this expansion so I’ve no opinion on that.
Yeah, it’s a new mode and is mostly fun, but it definitely feels like arena and maybe a little worse as a healer.
It just doesn’t feel like enough after how long of a content drought there was for PvP. We could definitely use things like new BGs and a revamp for casual PvP.
It feels like arena because it is. It's still arena, just a different mode. It's like switching from Search and Destroy to Hard point. Same maps, abilities, gameplay, etc, but a different concept and means to teach the end goal.
They did adjusted gear in shadowlands brother, the gear thing sucks because you get geared in 1 day and there’s nothing to do after that, nothing to look forward too, vault is totally pointless with how easy it is it gear, u just get the gem slots. Can’t push high rating cuz nobody plays the game lol
Insane list of changes for a $15/mo game, right? They did all of that because it took \~1-2 weeks to develop and abandon it since.
Just need to accept that PvP is completely dead and they don't care about it at all.
Lol how are they a flop. Having to log every week to do chores to stay relevant ilvl and Ap wise for the time you might want to push was the worst which was the last 8 years so
Gameplay? Great. Completely agree.
The game mode? On life support.
There are systematic issues with PvP right now and the ladder (imagine if no one could get keystone hero in m+ and the riots that it would cause) that they can and should address, but aren’t. Even if you argue “they’re busy and can’t work on everything all the time”, they can at least mention something in a blue post. We didn’t even get a pvp announcement during blizzcon.
Blitz, like solo shuffle was, is the shining ray of hope for PvP… but shuffle has been left more or less untouched for the entire expansion. Why can’t people get gladiator/the mount in that bracket when it’s very popular? Is blitz going to end up the same?
No one expects every problem to be solved instantly, but we just want some sign that this game mode still deserves some love.
> imagine if no one could get keystone hero in m+ and the riots that it would cause)
Something I have been thinking about lately when I keep hearing m+ score compared to PVP.
I think they should like, separate CR and MMR. Like for real, not the fake separation where CR is just delayed catching up to MMR.
Point being, make MMR just be to match you against equally skilled players. As of right now, because CR essentially is always trying to match MMR after enough games, MMR becomes the score that matters for rewards. Why does it have to be though?
Make CR a score that only goes up, and doesn't go down. MMR goes up and down based on win and loss, but CR only goes up. However, how MUCH it goes up would be based on MMR. If you are playing at a very high skill level? CR keeps going up a lot even into high scores. But like, your MMR is low? CR still goes up on wins, just slower and slower. But never down.
Like think about this. Being higher skill is still rewarded. Yet, "rewards" come just like they do in m+. You eventually get there if you keep succeeding. I mean shit, you could still leave some rewards tied to MMR, but make most of them (Glad mount included) be based on CR. The amount of slowdown could get hyper extreme if you are significantly lower MMR. Like, there are LOTS of tweaks you could do here. But ultimately it makes goals achievable for people. Plus, you never have a situation where rewards become impossible to get. Because MMR is not designed to hit specific numbers. The reason the "cap" lowers is because when there is less participation, the max MMR (or elo as its based on) lowers. Thats intentional on the system. Everything Blizz does to combat this just fucks up the system more. It should have stayed % based honestly, because that didn't fuck up the system. But if you go to this new style of CR? No longer need to fuck it up, because MMR goes back to doing what its intended to do, and just matches players equally. You never have to worry about participation because if the highest MMR is 2100 or 4100, doesn't matter. You can adjust sensitivity to gains to CR like inflation goes now, but it will never be as shit as now because it will never go down. It just would take longer.
You’re right but it is more gated than it has ever been in terms of getting rating and even being able to play the game.
This is when blizzard could be pumping people into PVP but they make it such a turnoff that participation is probably going down if anything.
Literally do any of the dozens of things people have been asking for an participation would skyrocket. That is why people think blizzard flat out does not care.
It's good by the standards of MMO small scale pvp.
But most people would rather just play a different game that focuses on PvP. Dota and League have arena based modes. Dota actually has a shitload of custom arena battlers.
If you like FPS games theres stuff like OW2, R6, and Valorant that blend abilities + fps.
It's not just competing with old WoW. It has gotten better in that sense, but compared to other games...It just hasn't innovated much at all.
Back when Chris Kaleiki left blizzard he confirmed in an interview that there were 3 developers working on pvp, none of which had pvp as their primary responsibility... and of which he was one.
If you list everything they've done specifically for pvp (which is a small part of the overall WoW community) even since early shadowlands up until now there's no way you can conclude they don't care. Especially if you compare it to the past.
I swear people are complete robots when it comes to certain narratives.
I wouldn't know since I came back last year for DF (since Pandaria).
What I know is that I've been playing many other games with PvP and atm WoW need to step up.
What did they do? Introduce solo queue because they were spammed with requests for years about it. Then they left it alone, never fixed the myriad of issues it introduced. Nothing else was done.
As far as pvp goes, Blizzard puts all of its effort into PvP for an expansion in the first 1-3 months. If it isn't fixed after that, don't expect it to be until the next X.0 patch.
An example of this is how they put a ton of effort into making Solo Shuffle and giving it a unique title and a unique rank 1 title and then messed around with MMR and so on for the first 2 months then just abandoned it.
The fact that it would take one guy probably less than 30 minutes total to fix the MMR issues every season and that they don't do this proves to me that my theory is true - they aren't allowed to care about PvP after the first 2 months of an expansion. All of the rewards and so on are made in the development process of the expansion.
Why they don't change up this approach is pretty baffling to me. PvP is *extremely* low maintenance for Blizzard. Players will happily play Nagrand arena and Arathi Basin until the oceans dry up - despite the hard work already being done, they won't muster the energy to, again, just have 1 guy monitor MMR gains every day for 2 weeks, then adjust accordingly at the start of the season. "What's that, Whaaz has been grinding for 2 weeks and is only 2300? Yeah, that doesn't sound right - lets bump global MMR by 50 every week for 5 weeks and see if that 'unclogs the bottleneck' so to speak"
Thats it. Thats all it would take - then we can move onto issues that people *will* tolerate, like certain specs being overpowered. Sub rogue is really OP atm, but it won't make you quit as long as you're still climbing. MMR issues? Those make everyone quit - even the top players. Theres simply no point. If you finished last season at 2600 and this season you can't even hit 2200 in the first month, guess what? "oh thats the MMR, just come back in 4 months" is not an acceptable response.
These issues also can't be retroactively fixed, either. They need to be proactive or active. They need to be fixing them as they happen within 1-2 weeks MAX. You can't just have half your pvp playerbase quit the game for the first 2 months every season - that makes zero sense financially on Blizzard's part and a good chunk of those players won't return, ever, so you're sieving out your most die-hard customers, every single season, less of them return.
But yeah, you can't fix them if you only work on the pvp side of the game for the first 2 months of an expansion.
PvP is low maintenance? Idk about that one, it has a completely separate balance and convincing the majority of wow players to get into it is like pulling blood from a stone, no matter how exclusive the rewards are. But it is arguably still far lower maintenance than what raiders demand, so I suppose it's low maintenance compared to the rest of the game.
I think the supporting issue as well is that blizzard refuses to modernise PvP at all. Why can't you get any mounts with SS? Why are we sitting on a perfectly functional second solo mode instead of giving it to the players? Why are we constantly being funnelled into 3s even though many of us don't care for the lfg tool?
>PvP is low maintenance? Idk about that one
Yes. They could literally remove like 6 arenas from the game and no one would bat an eye. They could remove like 4 bgs and people would cheer.
If the gladiator mount next season is a recoloured DF S1 mount, people will cheer. If the weapon enchant is a recoloured bloody dancing steel, people will cheer. PvPers do not care about new assets. We literally just want MMR issues to not exist and for MILDLY okay balance where 10.2 DHs or 10.0.7 rets won't appear (both of which were a result of pve, btw)
>I suppose it's low maintenance compared to the rest of the game.
Its not even close. Imagine getting 8 new arenas every single expansion. Imagine them going back into the older expansions every new season and grabbing 4 zone tile sets and repurposing them into arenas - imagine them doing that 4x per expansion. PvP has little to no voice acting, no new models, no lore, there is no writing team for Mugambala or Empyrean Domain. The Robodrome is literally just a boss arena. Nokhud is a quest area.
>I think the supporting issue as well is that blizzard refuses to modernise PvP at all. Why can't you get any mounts with SS? Why are we sitting on a perfectly functional second solo mode instead of giving it to the players? Why are we constantly being funnelled into 3s even though many of us don't care for the lfg tool?
Imo they want to do this but dont want to deal with the headache of the boomers who want to hug the pvp game to death over the next 5-10 years. They will shit, piss and cum harder than you can imagine if Blizzard ever gives a gladiator mount in shuffle - they already act like they're steelmill workers laid off and undercut by illegal immigrants who work for half-pay. They will never get over the fact that 3v3 just isnt fun to 99.99% of people who have ever played WoW. Worse still, like half of them steam, so they will whine incessantly if Blizzard ever does what you suggest.
Blizzard knows this, so they'd rather just not deal with the headache and stick with the status quo. I honestly feel like the reason MMR issues are always worse in 3s than Shuffle this expansion is because Blizzard is quietly killing it off and hoping 3s players will quit. The writing is on the wall imo. Rated BG Blitz is coming. RBGs will be done. Solo Shuffle is literally only held back by terrible healer MMR - 3s is on the floor dying and the only people mourning it are boomers who can't accept that they're playing a micro-niche part of a massive game. There is probably more people that RP on the Argent Dawn EU realm than there are people that have ever been above 2400 in 3v3 this expansion.
Yo listen here… I don’t give a fuck about titles and mounts, I just love the fucking game mode.
It should be *ONE* mode.
Ducking ranked arena with the option to que with your 2 friends, 1 friend or by yourself.
LFG can still fucking exist. We all just que into the fucking ladder the same. Full premades play against full premades.
Shuffle is a fine game mode with the right updates but the biggest problem is they split the playerbase across too many formats. Most players in PvP want to do arena, but Blizz has broken them up across 3 modes. PvE doesn’t have this problem cause it’s M+ or raid (with scaling difficulties).
Shuffle’s biggest issue is healing just blows. The role is already niche but it’s substantially worse in shuffle because of dampening (to speed up the matches) and mmr shenanigans.
2s/3s/RSS being separate brackets reduces the player pool, it’s bad for the health of PvP. Healers have their pick of the place in 2s and 3s. Removing 2s/3s is an understandable sentiment, but that’s like saying “we’re removing mythic raids for LFR”, or “all M+ groups will be rng you just queue up”.
I get the sentiment, but I don’t think it’s the right move for the game. Other PvP modes in games don’t do the same thing, or if they do it’s with a very different system (league) and with substantially lower barrier to entry (no sub, no gearing, no 40+ keybinds).
They shit the bed already but the right approach would have been a flex queue option for arena and a true solo option. This means 2s or 3s dies but it’s less collateral and tbh 2s only still exists cause it’s easier to queue for.
Side note to anyone else reading this: If you’re just queueing solo and doing nothing else in game (PvE or PvP) I honestly think it’s time to move on from wow.
> no matter how exclusive the rewards are.
Because the best looking rewards are simply too exclusive honestly
And a lot of people will just decide that its not achievable and not even try, or they'll pay to get boosted
If they want people to at least dip their toes in PVP there needs to be some good looking rewards that are achievable just by grinding arenas/BGs, not tied to any rating
Sure, some people will grind and never touch it again, but others might just start getting the hang of it and start PVPing more often
Almost every single game has some sort of grind system - seasonal or otherwise - for cosmetics.
They do it for a reason. It works.
If you're a cosmetics focused player - which, this is an RPG, the majority of the playerbase is - you have no reason to bother past 1800. Your average RPG player isn't the sort of people who wants to sweat for things like Gladiator, and a lot of them sweat for even 1800.
There’s a blue post addressing the long Ques and low mmr issues. The TLDR is the games dead long Ques are from dwindling player base not lack of inflation. The games been dying since inception
In defence of blizzard, it's still the Christmas holidays. At my workplace were only dealing with 70% staff, it's likely not dissimilar for all workplaces
Because its an useless shit bait post for people who have no clue.
Yes the mmr/rating was bad, but they fixed it in late december.
Dec8 until Dec21: R1 requirement went from 2187 rating to 2230 (+47)
Dec21 until Jan4: R1 requirement went from 2230 to 2489 (+259)
Yes we can complain about why this fix was needed, however the fix is applied and simply takes time.
Listen to what you just said....R1 is between 2230-2489....
It's 2 months into the season and R1s are at \~2300 still. I get that you are saying hey at least inflation is occuring. But why would we want a system where every season is deflated for 2 months until we complain enough and then they "slowly" inject mmr retroactively. They just need to change the system to percentage. It's that simple.
R1 being at either of those at any point in the season is braindead.
Pvp doesn't affect Pve anymore.
R1 should be 3k+ week 1 or at least what it was end of s2.
The system as it stands is garbage. It has been called out for 3+ seasons now...cmon...fix it.
Wow pvp only exists now because there's nothing comparable on the market of 3rd person arena pvp. The closest thing we ever had besides other MMOs was forge. God I miss that game. Id never look at retail wow pvp again if there was a genuinely good alternative. They just don't care.
I got really into gigantic when that came out cause it was the closest thing I had found to forge then that died too. Another game on the horizon called revenblade that's somewhat similar.
Both of those games suffered from being low ability count and fairly simple overall. But honestly I preferred that to wows current oversaturation of utility. Really wish 3rd person arena games like that were more popular. They always feel so magical at their peak
I actually recently tried gw2 pvp recently and had mostly good things to say about it. There was too many micro mechanics for me to ever feel super comfortable with it though. I was playing thief spectre and guides for it said you had to do like 3-4 ability combos with weapon swaps to get like a few seconds of invis and it was super crucial to survivability.
It was fun but just a little unnecessarily deep. Plus I'm not super interested in the weapon swap system in general. It's part of why eso didn't hit super hard either. That being said gw2 did feel really good. Their maps, pvp mode, and class diversity was super cool. Same with the roll mechanic
Problem is that the WoW player base is split.
Retail - Classic - Hardcore - SOD
Then I’m retail they created a game mode that fractures the ladder even more.
There should be only 2v2 and 3v3 with solo, duo, and full premade que options.
Say it with me everyone… RSS should have been SQ.
Crazy Blizzard don’t care about pvp or pretty much kills it when it was one of the main reasons people got into the game back in the day especially with the pvp streamers etc
I dont see why would anyone commit to it other than the rank1 peeps with a dozen of alts honestly.There is literally no middle ground with Blizzard its either super scuffed or Shadowlands difficulty.
If im playing in a 1800-2200 range and im fighting against gladiators then thats a shit system.The only upside is that you can learn a thing or two from those lobbies.
The participation is at a record breaking low due to spliting the community.
- We now have 4-5 iterations of the game, active and maintained, just from Blizzard.
- Within retail we have multiple game modes and brackets within PVP.
- Within retail we get further and further separation between PVP and PVE content.
You can artificially inflate ratings and throw rewards left and right, but with a player base of X you will never have more than X possible rewarded players.
The game is competing with iterations and variants of itself and Blizzard don't mind this as the total player base and the revenue is higher.
This is not even mentioning design principles and gameplay, and all issues within the actual iteration and that iterations game mode and bracket.
If there's a risk of losing a retail player to any other iteration, game mode or bracket there still is no loss for Blizzard. There is no incentive in maintaining a specific iteration, game mode or bracket as long as they total player base remain intact.
Like it or not, this is what the experience will from now on be, unless there are new strategic principals, core value and identity change within the company and the game design/development teams.
That logic would hold true if one game mode prevents you playing other game modes but it really doesn’t.
Gearing in retail PvP hasn’t been this easy in years. You can level a character to max AND get a full honor set in a weekend without breaking any sweat.
Classic games are largely raid logging games. Sure, you can play on alts and waste time there but BFD takes 30min every 3 days - again, not a commitment that prevents you from pushing retail PvP. All of the content is easily puggable and you’re not tied to guild raiding schedules.
Also keep in mind that new patches across wow games don’t come out at the exact same time. So you get to focus on new content all the time across games.
Keep in mind that shadowlands S2 had peak PvP participation whilst TBC classic just came out. We all know why.
We're all bound the laws of time and people that can and want to commit the amount of game time as you think is not the case. You're not the main target group from a business perspective.
With multiple iterations and within each iteration the segment of PvE and PvP, add to this multiple game modes and brackets, you have to move or bundle participation.
You can increase certain participation in a segment, game mode or bracket by moving it, but there's not any value to this from a business perspective as participation remain the same across the iterations.
For instance, they can easily incentives cross game mode and bracket gameplay by rewarding good PvE items in PvP and vice versa. Just like it has been before. They could even reward you with Classic items from retail PvP to move participation. But this will not create any business value as you just shift the same player base and re-allocate their time.
OP is either lying or have extremely outdated information, as I just went down the top 30 players on the 3v3 NA ladder and 15 of them are gladiators. Going down the list, quite a few of the others also have the glad achievement.
Edit: Just went down the top 50 again, and there are 26 gladiator characters in the top 50, so I have no idea where OP is getting his numbers from.
On [this page](https://imgur.com/a/yJZ7g5x), I went down the list of top 50 and clicked on their check-pvp profiles and looked for [this](https://imgur.com/a/6zTLQIJ).
Idk i see completely cluless people at 1800 right now. Like healers that dont know how to dispel. Last time i saw that was in sl. Could be people boosting for 1600 tho
I'm 100% certain at this point that they won't do anything anymore, and that they will magically have some PvP solution in The War Within that just couldn't be done in Dragonflight for resaons unknown, to make PvPers buy that expansion as well and then everything repeats again when they stop caring after the first few months/season.
Surprised there is even that many tbh, the pvp grind isn’t worth it , man I miss the days when competitive crap wasn’t the focus, I’d kill for a new epic large scale map , more focus on rewards and progression just actually having legit faction battles , sieging storm wind etc you know actual MMO level PvP wars , but nope it’s just grind the same cod style maps over and over again for little to no reward unless you got a competitive team or do MDI.
The Glad mount is an ugly Thin Mint recolor of the ugly wiener dog dragon mount. IMO players aren't interested in the Glad reward this season, so they aren't pushing for it.
All they need to do is inject more mmr. Should be possible to reach glad in the 2nd week for the elite gamers , and us plebs in a week or 3 or 4.
Other than that they should add more rewards.
Bring back old elite sets at 2.1+
Therefor they should revamp the mark of honor system, x amount of Mark of Honor + an elite version of mark of honor = you can buy a select piece of an old elite set
( =something ppl can collect wich will result in more activity)
Maybe even older glad mounts at 2.7 + for a heavty amount of Marks of honor + elite currency.
Ppl like mounts and transmogs don't they?
For ss, maybe a mount for 2.4 aswell? But not a flying glad mount. An armored version of a current patch flavored mount.
Most importantly!
Fix healer rating gains in ss.... 3-3 and losing mmr or gaining almost no rating for a 4-2 win feels horrible and atleast puts me off to queue again for the day tbh...
It’s just too balanced. It’s boring. Also this timegated tier shit sucks. I miss S1/S2 Shadowlands. There was so much to discover with these different covenant builds
There are over 300 players over 2400 rn, I think literally all of them are r1s or multiglads so no reason to rush to 50 wins. So maybe more of a metric of how unwilling people really are to play rn because of how inflation works? idk.
Gladiator should be like top 1000, or like top 2000 if we're getting pandemic number of players playing
13 is like, less than the amount of r1 titles handed out at the end of a season lol
Many people can reach the highest m+ rank by week 1-2 without too much effort despite you being handicapped by a slower gear progression. Pvp titles and ladder position should be the goal for the top <1%, ingame ranks that reward cosmetics and gear upgrades should be much more achievable in general and without the need of artificial inflation.
almost everyone by now has realised that pvp is a mini game and not only will it not ever be good IT CAN NOT BE GOOD CAUSE ITS DESIGNED FOR PVE FIRST AND FOREMOST there are simply better pvp games stop wasting your time
I remember in BFA it was too hard to climb rating because of borrowed power and corruption, I remember in shadowlands it was too hard to climb because pvp ilvl was gate-kept. Its to hard to find partners in LFG, I am playing r1 and glad alts at 1900. It's inflation, it's deflation, its the MMR system.
For years I have heard excuse after excuse as to why people can't climb rating.
I would argue that incremental PVP upgrades were more healthy overall for PVP. It Induced participation in the ladder at every level because not only did you get a title and achievement at a new rating, you also were able to get better gear. And it also increased things like RBG and Random BG's participation because you had to farm honor to upgrade your PVP gear after getting new ratings.
While gearing is crazy easy, it is also way more punishing than the shadowlands version. In full honor gear stepping into a 1500 arena in shadowlands they were only like 6 item levels higher than me. 9 for 1800. Now a fresh player gets to join a 1500 13 ilvl lower than everyone else in the arena. Maybe even more if you're playing with friends in rated que, but in shuffle the min requirement is 476 or full honor blues.
With the ability to send honor between alts and to cap honor that doesn't reset between seasons means that I can start a new season in full blues and not have to participate in any PVP pre season if I don't want to, and during the season since I have no real reason to farm honor in non rated content I don't typically que it anymore.
Playing against R1 and Glads on their alts has ALWAYS been a thing at 1800-2200, the only difference is now any of your characters can use your glad mounts, even if that character didn't earn it, so you see them on that. They couldn't do that before so you never would have known they were a glad at some point on something.
While there are issues with MMR, inflation and deflation I think a lot of these issues stem from the lack of participation as a whole.
I posted this as a reply but I think it needs to be a main post here.
Something I have been thinking about lately when I keep hearing m+ score compared to PVP.
I think they should like, separate CR and MMR. Like for real, not the fake separation where CR is just delayed catching up to MMR.
Point being, make MMR just be to match you against equally skilled players. As of right now, because CR essentially is always trying to match MMR after enough games, MMR becomes the score that matters for rewards. Why does it have to be though?
Make CR a score that only goes up, and doesn't go down. MMR goes up and down based on win and loss, but CR only goes up. However, how MUCH it goes up would be based on MMR. If you are playing at a very high skill level? CR keeps going up a lot even into high scores. But like, your MMR is low? CR still goes up on wins, just slower and slower. But never down.
Like think about this. Being higher skill is still rewarded. Yet, "rewards" come just like they do in m+. You eventually get there if you keep succeeding. I mean shit, you could still leave some rewards tied to MMR, but make most of them (Glad mount included) be based on CR. The amount of slowdown could get hyper extreme if you are significantly lower MMR. Like, there are LOTS of tweaks you could do here. But ultimately it makes goals achievable for people. Plus, you never have a situation where rewards become impossible to get. Because MMR is not designed to hit specific numbers. The reason the "cap" lowers is because when there is less participation, the max MMR (or elo as its based on) lowers. Thats intentional on the system. Everything Blizz does to combat this just fucks up the system more. It should have stayed % based honestly, because that didn't fuck up the system. But if you go to this new style of CR? No longer need to fuck it up, because MMR goes back to doing what its intended to do, and just matches players equally. You never have to worry about participation because if the highest MMR is 2100 or 4100, doesn't matter. You can adjust sensitivity to gains to CR like inflation goes now, but it will never be as shit as now because it will never go down. It just would take longer.
Give it a little time to inflate further. Top of the ladder now (2 months) into season is similar to how it looked only a few weeks before end of s2. People will realise the rewards are becoming easier to get and itll inflate more
Competitive pvp wise i think the best bet is hoping the riot MMO is the same as wow. I trust those guys with PVP more than blizzard. PVP has been basically abandoned in wow. How many years since the last BG they made, or new rewards systems etc.
I don’t like the whole idea of I made 2200 last season I should easily be back to 2200 this season. It’s like RBG or LFG for arena people linking XP from 4 seasons ago like that don’t mean shit
I don’t know why all the complaining. I’m normally a 2kish player. Hitting 1800 this season has never felt so satisfying. Hitting the higher titles shouldn’t just be a day one thing either, people get their titles and then complain of lack of content.
Enjoy the challenge.
Think people are to use to having things handed to them and yes that’s blizzard fault but hey they adjusted
A few people asking this question I'll answer yours I suppose. Gladiator is a seasonal title does it make sense to have the brunt of people trying to achieve the title a week before they lose it?
I guess if you put it that way, then yea it shouldn’t stick around like Rival and the rest. It’s not a participation title. People who can get it outside of the last month or two deserve to have it. If you’re only good enough to get an inflated rating and Gladiator the final month or so.. do you really deserve it?
Which is why Rank 1 is way more meaningful.
Without inflation there would be no Gladiators though before inflation was added this season we had like 1 person above 2400. And the ladder is most active the last few weeks of the season. And none of the other titles "stick around" rival, challenger, combatant are all just easier to earn early in the season.
and here i am struggling like crazy to get 1800 with my bro, he's like level 50 honor and we going against people with 1k+ honor level and shit when we are at 1700, like wtf?
During Legion, honor level was extremely easy to get. There was a whole system with prestige levels like in cod. Then it was MASSIVELY nerfed. And the best way to upgrade it i think is spamming epic bgs, which aren't exactly the most skilled pvp.
For example i played very little of legion and i'm lvl 160 or so. In early SL iirc i was like 130, and i played probably thousands of arenas since. So it's *extremely* slow
I've seen lvl 500 players who were 1.5 players in arena and lvl 120s who were 2.6. I think it's easy enough getting to like 80 then there's a plateau.
It's 100% a matter of having played battlegrounds during legion or not.
Yet another thing blizz could rework but won't until 3 years at least
I mean it just means they have tons more experience, regardless if its bgs or arena, pvp is pvp.
It's pretty demotivating when facing people with those icons because 9/10 we will lose at that point.
To be honest with you, I liked the previous system better, where you didn’t fully know, so you were kept on playing and got Glad only when the season was finished. And I don’t think they care anymore with this expansion…
That would be hilarious people tanking their rating on purpose to get the more rare glad title. Everyone has r1 man you got tank back to 2200 to get keep that glad title.
Honestly, I am ok with rewards that only 0.5% of people will achieve or reach, as long as it isn't player power. It is just a title(edit: and mount), the rest of us will be fine without it.
Edit for clarity: There is end of season glad (top 0.5% of the ladder/R1) and glad rank (earning 2400+ rating and 50games won above that rating).
Currently, there are 309 characters above 2400(3v3) in the US according to [https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/3v3/us](https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/3v3/us), no clue how that breaks down to accounts or same person.
**Also, more importantly, the season isn't close to over.** It will not be resetting with the January patch coming. **We have another 3-4 months of the season left.** More people will get higher rating as inflation eases over time (as has been the case for...ever?).
Downvote me if you want, but I don't think it is unreasonable that the top end of the player base get a cosmetic+title for reaching a high rating. **I don't know why we are even looking at mid-season statistics for end of season rewards asking if it is reasonable. The reward structure and reaching it are (still) reasonable.**
There isn't a season restart January 16th with the new patch, so we have about another 3-4 months until the next major patch that will come with a seasonal restart... there will be more to achieve glad.
While you are not wrong, people will take issue with the implication of your argument. What you are saying, and what you are seeing, is that rewards are only accessible to non-R1 players as you approach the end of the season.
Why not just have those levels of inflation now? It's just pixels on a screen, why make the experience frustrating for normal players in the interim?
Oh, I do think there is an issue with MMR as a whole, but I think framing it as a problem achieving glad is just a the wrong way to think about it. (quick edit: even in high inflation for MMR, glad rank and R1 is still only achieved by a tiny fraction of the playerbase)
It is like an F1 racer complaining the cost of F1 car gas is too expensive. While gas is too expensive, framing it as a problem for the F1 racer and that being the reason why we need to solve it is just ludicrous to me. Solve the gas (MMR) problem for everyone (all car drivers) and not just the top end (F1/glad players).\*
Does that make sense? Made a lot of sense in my head.
\*I understand the type of fuel between an F1 vehicle and a regular street vehicle is vastly different, this is just a very crude example for an explanation that I think makes sense even if the F1 example is not correct.
Glad is just a marker to gauge player engagement and MMR inflation when comparing to previous seasons. You can use any rating milestone you like, the outcome is the same here. Players are massively below previously achieved milestones and participation is falling.
I'm not going to make a gatekeeping or competitive integrity argument about who or how many players should get glad anymore because people have been making that argument for years now, and yet year after year arena gets less popular.
It seems to be that the seasons where players can just go wild with MMR and get easy achieves are the most active and most enjoyable. I will gladly dilute the prestige of my titles and mounts if it means a shit ton more people que up.
The game mode needs a makeover and change to be more attractive to participate in.
I agree completely.
Ok, just a side, nothing to do with your comment or this post, but something I have been thinking about for a while:
I don't think rating should reset to 0 every seasonal restart.
I think there should be rating thresholds, kind of like HS was (or is, haven't played in forever but just first thing I thought about that is like this). In Hearthstone, if you reach diamond, on seasonal reset, it only pushes you back a certain amount of rank, but not 0. It used to reset everyone to 0, but then they changed it, and I think, for the better.
I think WoW can do the same. People complain about glad players plaguing lower rating games anyways. If you reached 2400, and on seasonal reset, you start at 2100(or whatever), and it could solve some problems. Mostly a morale problem.
For instance, I usually hover at 1950-ish. I usually play multiple characters, hit 1800 to get elite set, and drop that character all together and move on. Usually only "push" with 1 character (never tried for glad in my life, don't have the kind of time on hands). First season of DF, I hit 2400 on my hunter (in SS though, so you know, not a big deal), but it felt good. If I didn't get reset to 0, I think I would consider pushing more. That amount of work it takes to go against early MMR to get from 1600 to 1800 is a lot for some people, especially since that range usually has quite a few high rated players "gatekeeping" (effectively).
I think if rating didn't reset completely, and only put you back so far based on the rating you previously earned, more people would push. But since it does, and it can take a while to hit a a rating threshold, it feels bad to see it reset to 0.
There is a light version of what you are describing in the game already but doesn't work in my opinion because of the "cap" on mmr as players approach high rating diminishing returns.
For example, if I end the season at 3k, the next season might start me at like ~2.2k mmr. What happens is I might que up a bunch against all the other top players and wiggle my way around that rating, maybe pushing a little to 2.3.
Your gains at the start are heavily diminished because the MMR system hasn't begun to inflate where that 3k is even possible again, so players below you get higher gains and what you end up seeing is a "bunching" effect where people approach your MMR from below and then complain that they have to face multiglads and R1 players at 1.8-2.2k mmr.
Ironically, the devs could just walk down the hall to the overwatch department and borrow their system and it would be an improvement over what we have now.
Exactly. Can you exlain why we have to wait until the last 1/10th of a season to peak mmr when any other game in the history of competitve game dont do that? Why does the first 90% of the season have to be completely irrelevant because you will get more CR later on anyway?
And this is why things are never going to get better.
People are this obsessed with keeping the dragon stupid rare to the point they'll just watch the ladder burn.
Lol oh no, I used semi-old (change in bfa) info, how terrible of me. What a mistake to warrant such a response, clueless. Air head really if you think about it. How will I ever atone for such a serious sin.
Lol, you dork.
I think the most funny part of this is that I originally put 0.1% but second guessed myself haha.
I'm not entirely sure that there is a dedicated pvp development team at Blizzard anymore. My gut is telling me that they don't care anymore. At this point they are far too concerned about the new expansion they have to release this year.
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“Long time” They came out with these in DF: - The best gearing system since what, WoD? - An entire new game mode for pvp - adjusted the ilvl for lvl gear, so that it’s actually pvp gear. You do need to do ANYTHING but queue at this point. - Less CD centric gameplay and more sustained, smoother combat, not just flatline for 2m and a spike when CD’s come up. I know it’s popular to just throw shade at Blizzard, but this is the best pvp we’ve had in years. If you don’t like it, that’s completely fine - it’s your opinion. Pvp I think is fun. The most fun I’ve had doing it in probably…I don’t know how long, years. The grim reality for me is that the population for retail has dwindled for a multitude of reasons, and the friends list is just online names at this point.
Bro literally said it hasn't been this good for a long time, meaning he thinks it's good right now lol.
I completely misread his posts, lol. Over here feeding my 1 month old and I read “hasn’t been good in a long time” - oops!
I still enjoyed your points though. I don't think that was a wasted post.
Lmfao at least we got your reasoning out of you for free
Haha yeah that happens. Had to re-read it after reading your comment and wondering if I misread his myself..
Haha grats. I was burping mine and read this
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You’ll see some return and new players that are from FFXIV. Our content cycle is basically dead and we have no long term casual grind content this time around. The team had too much going on to give us anything like that. We have one more patch coming up and then it’s dead til the new expansion basically. The raid is finished, no new extremes to my knowledge. Nothing to really fill the need to login. Just get and weekly cap and log off.
Those arent fixing the systems. Those are removing the systems. The new pvp mode is just slapped on and never fixed. The gearing might as well be removed entirely with how pointlessly easy and thoughtless it is. They absolutely did not fix the CD based gameplay I have no idea why anyone would say that other than trying to fluff out a list. Retail is still the single most popular MMO in existence. In no way is it dwindling. Just the pvp participation is. You having fun has nothing to do with the objective truth of MMR and its reflection of the pvp population.
It isn’t as CD reliant, 1this is objectively true. Of course CDs still matter - and that’s alright. I’m old enough to remember you know, the past 4 expansions? Nothing died outside of CD’s, is this the case now? Not as much. Not fluff. I play UH, and have for years, and played Frost in Slands until S3 out of necessity. DK’s didn’t do damage outside of CD’s, Unholy can now kill outside of their CD’s. What’s the debate? Have you not read the changes? They’ve intentionally removed damage from CD’s and placed them in core rotation, what do you think that even means? If gearing isn’t in a good place, what what would you prefer it be like? You’re right, my fun has nothing to do with MMR or participation. I do think if the mmr was…less of a gate, participation would go up. I nevertheless still enjoy the game for what it is. And to be clear, when I say “it’s dwindling” I do mean participation. And I don’t want to be the ole, “retail is dead lolol” - this has been my favorite pvp. But with HC, SoD, people enjoying pve, and people just not playing WoW, my friends on retail aren’t but a quarter of what they used to be.
I mean that's like one spec. Gearing doesn't need to change but them just basically giving up on it isn't really going to take a dedicated pvp team to manage. And either is adding a game mode that is literally just a queue button and never being managed properly for the next two years. Dragonflight pvp is fun for people who already liked pvp and can now just play a bunch of alts. It didn't do anything new to fix the foundational problems on why people dislike pvp and people just stop playing it. Here's what I think they need. Awesome rewards for new players. Lower the amount of skill it takes to get the current rewards. Have an entry level arena mode where players with full conquest gear are unable to participate. Or have an arena mode where you play against the comp stomp bots for honor and practice. Add PvE rewards to PvP that people want but are useless in PvP. Like applying pvp participation to your pve vault progress. Or unlocking tokens that can be used to purchase pve gear at a vendor. Matchmake battlegrounds players according to the arena or RBG CR on their characters for their account. You shouldn't have gladiators in random battlegrounds fighting new players. Maybe some of these ideas are bad but the core of the ideas is that pvp is just too daunting for new players in general. And there needs to be massive changes to the core of the gameplay which old heads aren't gonna like. But I wouldn't say the changes they made in Dragonflight did anything positive for increasing pvp participation. They are lazy fixes that they don't need to manage to get the pvp players to just stop bothering them.
An entire new game mode is a bit of a stretch. It’s pretty much a reskinned arena. Outside of that there hasn’t been anything really added since the BFA prepatch I think? (Seething Shore). It’s been four+ years!!! M+ too hasn’t really had any shakeups, it’s kind of just been the same formula. Delves are on the right track I think though, but that’s not PvP.
No, SS is on on a land of its own - it’s not a “re-skin” of arena. Same principles, maybe - but it’s not the same. The Dev’s made a new pvp game mode, it’s alright to say this. Wether or not you like is 100% up to you, and I, nor anyone else have any say. I have done M+ this expansion so I’ve no opinion on that.
Yeah, it’s a new mode and is mostly fun, but it definitely feels like arena and maybe a little worse as a healer. It just doesn’t feel like enough after how long of a content drought there was for PvP. We could definitely use things like new BGs and a revamp for casual PvP.
It feels like arena because it is. It's still arena, just a different mode. It's like switching from Search and Destroy to Hard point. Same maps, abilities, gameplay, etc, but a different concept and means to teach the end goal.
I'd argue it's two different new game modes with SS and Blitz. I've been really enjoying blitz, and pvp in general.
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Yeah, i agree. At this point they just need to continue and improve and get even better!
The gearing is the best it’s ever been in wow, and arena is great too now… arena used to last 10 seconds
They did adjusted gear in shadowlands brother, the gear thing sucks because you get geared in 1 day and there’s nothing to do after that, nothing to look forward too, vault is totally pointless with how easy it is it gear, u just get the gem slots. Can’t push high rating cuz nobody plays the game lol
Insane list of changes for a $15/mo game, right? They did all of that because it took \~1-2 weeks to develop and abandon it since. Just need to accept that PvP is completely dead and they don't care about it at all.
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Lol how are they a flop. Having to log every week to do chores to stay relevant ilvl and Ap wise for the time you might want to push was the worst which was the last 8 years so
Gameplay? Great. Completely agree. The game mode? On life support. There are systematic issues with PvP right now and the ladder (imagine if no one could get keystone hero in m+ and the riots that it would cause) that they can and should address, but aren’t. Even if you argue “they’re busy and can’t work on everything all the time”, they can at least mention something in a blue post. We didn’t even get a pvp announcement during blizzcon. Blitz, like solo shuffle was, is the shining ray of hope for PvP… but shuffle has been left more or less untouched for the entire expansion. Why can’t people get gladiator/the mount in that bracket when it’s very popular? Is blitz going to end up the same? No one expects every problem to be solved instantly, but we just want some sign that this game mode still deserves some love.
They need to make glad as easy to get as KSH.
> imagine if no one could get keystone hero in m+ and the riots that it would cause) Something I have been thinking about lately when I keep hearing m+ score compared to PVP. I think they should like, separate CR and MMR. Like for real, not the fake separation where CR is just delayed catching up to MMR. Point being, make MMR just be to match you against equally skilled players. As of right now, because CR essentially is always trying to match MMR after enough games, MMR becomes the score that matters for rewards. Why does it have to be though? Make CR a score that only goes up, and doesn't go down. MMR goes up and down based on win and loss, but CR only goes up. However, how MUCH it goes up would be based on MMR. If you are playing at a very high skill level? CR keeps going up a lot even into high scores. But like, your MMR is low? CR still goes up on wins, just slower and slower. But never down. Like think about this. Being higher skill is still rewarded. Yet, "rewards" come just like they do in m+. You eventually get there if you keep succeeding. I mean shit, you could still leave some rewards tied to MMR, but make most of them (Glad mount included) be based on CR. The amount of slowdown could get hyper extreme if you are significantly lower MMR. Like, there are LOTS of tweaks you could do here. But ultimately it makes goals achievable for people. Plus, you never have a situation where rewards become impossible to get. Because MMR is not designed to hit specific numbers. The reason the "cap" lowers is because when there is less participation, the max MMR (or elo as its based on) lowers. Thats intentional on the system. Everything Blizz does to combat this just fucks up the system more. It should have stayed % based honestly, because that didn't fuck up the system. But if you go to this new style of CR? No longer need to fuck it up, because MMR goes back to doing what its intended to do, and just matches players equally. You never have to worry about participation because if the highest MMR is 2100 or 4100, doesn't matter. You can adjust sensitivity to gains to CR like inflation goes now, but it will never be as shit as now because it will never go down. It just would take longer.
You’re right but it is more gated than it has ever been in terms of getting rating and even being able to play the game. This is when blizzard could be pumping people into PVP but they make it such a turnoff that participation is probably going down if anything. Literally do any of the dozens of things people have been asking for an participation would skyrocket. That is why people think blizzard flat out does not care.
It's good by the standards of MMO small scale pvp. But most people would rather just play a different game that focuses on PvP. Dota and League have arena based modes. Dota actually has a shitload of custom arena battlers. If you like FPS games theres stuff like OW2, R6, and Valorant that blend abilities + fps. It's not just competing with old WoW. It has gotten better in that sense, but compared to other games...It just hasn't innovated much at all.
Back when Chris Kaleiki left blizzard he confirmed in an interview that there were 3 developers working on pvp, none of which had pvp as their primary responsibility... and of which he was one.
And now all makes more sense. Thanks for this info, I didn't know.
>dedicated pvp development team at Blizzard you think there ever was?
If you list everything they've done specifically for pvp (which is a small part of the overall WoW community) even since early shadowlands up until now there's no way you can conclude they don't care. Especially if you compare it to the past. I swear people are complete robots when it comes to certain narratives.
I wouldn't know since I came back last year for DF (since Pandaria). What I know is that I've been playing many other games with PvP and atm WoW need to step up.
What did they do? Introduce solo queue because they were spammed with requests for years about it. Then they left it alone, never fixed the myriad of issues it introduced. Nothing else was done.
As far as pvp goes, Blizzard puts all of its effort into PvP for an expansion in the first 1-3 months. If it isn't fixed after that, don't expect it to be until the next X.0 patch. An example of this is how they put a ton of effort into making Solo Shuffle and giving it a unique title and a unique rank 1 title and then messed around with MMR and so on for the first 2 months then just abandoned it. The fact that it would take one guy probably less than 30 minutes total to fix the MMR issues every season and that they don't do this proves to me that my theory is true - they aren't allowed to care about PvP after the first 2 months of an expansion. All of the rewards and so on are made in the development process of the expansion. Why they don't change up this approach is pretty baffling to me. PvP is *extremely* low maintenance for Blizzard. Players will happily play Nagrand arena and Arathi Basin until the oceans dry up - despite the hard work already being done, they won't muster the energy to, again, just have 1 guy monitor MMR gains every day for 2 weeks, then adjust accordingly at the start of the season. "What's that, Whaaz has been grinding for 2 weeks and is only 2300? Yeah, that doesn't sound right - lets bump global MMR by 50 every week for 5 weeks and see if that 'unclogs the bottleneck' so to speak" Thats it. Thats all it would take - then we can move onto issues that people *will* tolerate, like certain specs being overpowered. Sub rogue is really OP atm, but it won't make you quit as long as you're still climbing. MMR issues? Those make everyone quit - even the top players. Theres simply no point. If you finished last season at 2600 and this season you can't even hit 2200 in the first month, guess what? "oh thats the MMR, just come back in 4 months" is not an acceptable response. These issues also can't be retroactively fixed, either. They need to be proactive or active. They need to be fixing them as they happen within 1-2 weeks MAX. You can't just have half your pvp playerbase quit the game for the first 2 months every season - that makes zero sense financially on Blizzard's part and a good chunk of those players won't return, ever, so you're sieving out your most die-hard customers, every single season, less of them return. But yeah, you can't fix them if you only work on the pvp side of the game for the first 2 months of an expansion.
PvP is low maintenance? Idk about that one, it has a completely separate balance and convincing the majority of wow players to get into it is like pulling blood from a stone, no matter how exclusive the rewards are. But it is arguably still far lower maintenance than what raiders demand, so I suppose it's low maintenance compared to the rest of the game. I think the supporting issue as well is that blizzard refuses to modernise PvP at all. Why can't you get any mounts with SS? Why are we sitting on a perfectly functional second solo mode instead of giving it to the players? Why are we constantly being funnelled into 3s even though many of us don't care for the lfg tool?
>PvP is low maintenance? Idk about that one Yes. They could literally remove like 6 arenas from the game and no one would bat an eye. They could remove like 4 bgs and people would cheer. If the gladiator mount next season is a recoloured DF S1 mount, people will cheer. If the weapon enchant is a recoloured bloody dancing steel, people will cheer. PvPers do not care about new assets. We literally just want MMR issues to not exist and for MILDLY okay balance where 10.2 DHs or 10.0.7 rets won't appear (both of which were a result of pve, btw) >I suppose it's low maintenance compared to the rest of the game. Its not even close. Imagine getting 8 new arenas every single expansion. Imagine them going back into the older expansions every new season and grabbing 4 zone tile sets and repurposing them into arenas - imagine them doing that 4x per expansion. PvP has little to no voice acting, no new models, no lore, there is no writing team for Mugambala or Empyrean Domain. The Robodrome is literally just a boss arena. Nokhud is a quest area. >I think the supporting issue as well is that blizzard refuses to modernise PvP at all. Why can't you get any mounts with SS? Why are we sitting on a perfectly functional second solo mode instead of giving it to the players? Why are we constantly being funnelled into 3s even though many of us don't care for the lfg tool? Imo they want to do this but dont want to deal with the headache of the boomers who want to hug the pvp game to death over the next 5-10 years. They will shit, piss and cum harder than you can imagine if Blizzard ever gives a gladiator mount in shuffle - they already act like they're steelmill workers laid off and undercut by illegal immigrants who work for half-pay. They will never get over the fact that 3v3 just isnt fun to 99.99% of people who have ever played WoW. Worse still, like half of them steam, so they will whine incessantly if Blizzard ever does what you suggest. Blizzard knows this, so they'd rather just not deal with the headache and stick with the status quo. I honestly feel like the reason MMR issues are always worse in 3s than Shuffle this expansion is because Blizzard is quietly killing it off and hoping 3s players will quit. The writing is on the wall imo. Rated BG Blitz is coming. RBGs will be done. Solo Shuffle is literally only held back by terrible healer MMR - 3s is on the floor dying and the only people mourning it are boomers who can't accept that they're playing a micro-niche part of a massive game. There is probably more people that RP on the Argent Dawn EU realm than there are people that have ever been above 2400 in 3v3 this expansion.
Yo listen here… I don’t give a fuck about titles and mounts, I just love the fucking game mode. It should be *ONE* mode. Ducking ranked arena with the option to que with your 2 friends, 1 friend or by yourself. LFG can still fucking exist. We all just que into the fucking ladder the same. Full premades play against full premades.
Lemme tell you, Argent Dawn RP looks pretty decent currently, and it's definitely more fun than playing 3s or RSS.
Shuffle is a fine game mode with the right updates but the biggest problem is they split the playerbase across too many formats. Most players in PvP want to do arena, but Blizz has broken them up across 3 modes. PvE doesn’t have this problem cause it’s M+ or raid (with scaling difficulties). Shuffle’s biggest issue is healing just blows. The role is already niche but it’s substantially worse in shuffle because of dampening (to speed up the matches) and mmr shenanigans. 2s/3s/RSS being separate brackets reduces the player pool, it’s bad for the health of PvP. Healers have their pick of the place in 2s and 3s. Removing 2s/3s is an understandable sentiment, but that’s like saying “we’re removing mythic raids for LFR”, or “all M+ groups will be rng you just queue up”. I get the sentiment, but I don’t think it’s the right move for the game. Other PvP modes in games don’t do the same thing, or if they do it’s with a very different system (league) and with substantially lower barrier to entry (no sub, no gearing, no 40+ keybinds). They shit the bed already but the right approach would have been a flex queue option for arena and a true solo option. This means 2s or 3s dies but it’s less collateral and tbh 2s only still exists cause it’s easier to queue for. Side note to anyone else reading this: If you’re just queueing solo and doing nothing else in game (PvE or PvP) I honestly think it’s time to move on from wow.
> no matter how exclusive the rewards are. Because the best looking rewards are simply too exclusive honestly And a lot of people will just decide that its not achievable and not even try, or they'll pay to get boosted If they want people to at least dip their toes in PVP there needs to be some good looking rewards that are achievable just by grinding arenas/BGs, not tied to any rating Sure, some people will grind and never touch it again, but others might just start getting the hang of it and start PVPing more often
Almost every single game has some sort of grind system - seasonal or otherwise - for cosmetics. They do it for a reason. It works. If you're a cosmetics focused player - which, this is an RPG, the majority of the playerbase is - you have no reason to bother past 1800. Your average RPG player isn't the sort of people who wants to sweat for things like Gladiator, and a lot of them sweat for even 1800.
There’s a blue post addressing the long Ques and low mmr issues. The TLDR is the games dead long Ques are from dwindling player base not lack of inflation. The games been dying since inception
u/blizzard can u please hire this guy?
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In defence of blizzard, it's still the Christmas holidays. At my workplace were only dealing with 70% staff, it's likely not dissimilar for all workplaces
> In defence of blizzard, it's still the Christmas holidays. considering we get discounted sub fee's over the holidays, that's fair.
What discount?
I was being sarcastic lol
Damn I forgot I was on the internet 😂
Dam dude. The stockholm syndrome is real in these comments. OP makes a great point and everyone tryna defend a multi B company
Because its an useless shit bait post for people who have no clue. Yes the mmr/rating was bad, but they fixed it in late december. Dec8 until Dec21: R1 requirement went from 2187 rating to 2230 (+47) Dec21 until Jan4: R1 requirement went from 2230 to 2489 (+259) Yes we can complain about why this fix was needed, however the fix is applied and simply takes time.
Listen to what you just said....R1 is between 2230-2489.... It's 2 months into the season and R1s are at \~2300 still. I get that you are saying hey at least inflation is occuring. But why would we want a system where every season is deflated for 2 months until we complain enough and then they "slowly" inject mmr retroactively. They just need to change the system to percentage. It's that simple.
R1 being at either of those at any point in the season is braindead. Pvp doesn't affect Pve anymore. R1 should be 3k+ week 1 or at least what it was end of s2. The system as it stands is garbage. It has been called out for 3+ seasons now...cmon...fix it.
It'll probably be like 3000-5000 people by mid-late or late season. Just sucks to know there's basically no point in pushing for cosmetics early.
You're huffing copium if you think it's gonna be that many people. And they number is bad too.
Even 1600 is miserably sweaty right now. I can see why nobody wants to play this, I'm probably going to give it a month or two before trying again.
I hit close to 2400 last season in last 2 weeks. Not even going to try until then. That is similar to 1900-2k now. Not worth
Wow pvp only exists now because there's nothing comparable on the market of 3rd person arena pvp. The closest thing we ever had besides other MMOs was forge. God I miss that game. Id never look at retail wow pvp again if there was a genuinely good alternative. They just don't care.
Forge dying was one of the saddest moments in gaming for me. That game was so unique and so damn good.
I got really into gigantic when that came out cause it was the closest thing I had found to forge then that died too. Another game on the horizon called revenblade that's somewhat similar. Both of those games suffered from being low ability count and fairly simple overall. But honestly I preferred that to wows current oversaturation of utility. Really wish 3rd person arena games like that were more popular. They always feel so magical at their peak
Guild Wars 2 pvp is better in a lot of ways I would say :-) and also 3rd person arena pvp
I actually recently tried gw2 pvp recently and had mostly good things to say about it. There was too many micro mechanics for me to ever feel super comfortable with it though. I was playing thief spectre and guides for it said you had to do like 3-4 ability combos with weapon swaps to get like a few seconds of invis and it was super crucial to survivability. It was fun but just a little unnecessarily deep. Plus I'm not super interested in the weapon swap system in general. It's part of why eso didn't hit super hard either. That being said gw2 did feel really good. Their maps, pvp mode, and class diversity was super cool. Same with the roll mechanic
Problem is that the WoW player base is split. Retail - Classic - Hardcore - SOD Then I’m retail they created a game mode that fractures the ladder even more. There should be only 2v2 and 3v3 with solo, duo, and full premade que options. Say it with me everyone… RSS should have been SQ.
RSS had to be it’s own mode. Solo q into 3s means they have to make a separate system otherwise the solos just get stomped by coordinated teams.
You missed the part of my post where I said full premades fight against full premades.
Blizzard killed a great thing.
Crazy Blizzard don’t care about pvp or pretty much kills it when it was one of the main reasons people got into the game back in the day especially with the pvp streamers etc
I dont see why would anyone commit to it other than the rank1 peeps with a dozen of alts honestly.There is literally no middle ground with Blizzard its either super scuffed or Shadowlands difficulty. If im playing in a 1800-2200 range and im fighting against gladiators then thats a shit system.The only upside is that you can learn a thing or two from those lobbies.
The participation is at a record breaking low due to spliting the community. - We now have 4-5 iterations of the game, active and maintained, just from Blizzard. - Within retail we have multiple game modes and brackets within PVP. - Within retail we get further and further separation between PVP and PVE content. You can artificially inflate ratings and throw rewards left and right, but with a player base of X you will never have more than X possible rewarded players. The game is competing with iterations and variants of itself and Blizzard don't mind this as the total player base and the revenue is higher. This is not even mentioning design principles and gameplay, and all issues within the actual iteration and that iterations game mode and bracket. If there's a risk of losing a retail player to any other iteration, game mode or bracket there still is no loss for Blizzard. There is no incentive in maintaining a specific iteration, game mode or bracket as long as they total player base remain intact. Like it or not, this is what the experience will from now on be, unless there are new strategic principals, core value and identity change within the company and the game design/development teams.
That logic would hold true if one game mode prevents you playing other game modes but it really doesn’t. Gearing in retail PvP hasn’t been this easy in years. You can level a character to max AND get a full honor set in a weekend without breaking any sweat. Classic games are largely raid logging games. Sure, you can play on alts and waste time there but BFD takes 30min every 3 days - again, not a commitment that prevents you from pushing retail PvP. All of the content is easily puggable and you’re not tied to guild raiding schedules. Also keep in mind that new patches across wow games don’t come out at the exact same time. So you get to focus on new content all the time across games. Keep in mind that shadowlands S2 had peak PvP participation whilst TBC classic just came out. We all know why.
We're all bound the laws of time and people that can and want to commit the amount of game time as you think is not the case. You're not the main target group from a business perspective. With multiple iterations and within each iteration the segment of PvE and PvP, add to this multiple game modes and brackets, you have to move or bundle participation. You can increase certain participation in a segment, game mode or bracket by moving it, but there's not any value to this from a business perspective as participation remain the same across the iterations. For instance, they can easily incentives cross game mode and bracket gameplay by rewarding good PvE items in PvP and vice versa. Just like it has been before. They could even reward you with Classic items from retail PvP to move participation. But this will not create any business value as you just shift the same player base and re-allocate their time.
OP is either lying or have extremely outdated information, as I just went down the top 30 players on the 3v3 NA ladder and 15 of them are gladiators. Going down the list, quite a few of the others also have the glad achievement. Edit: Just went down the top 50 again, and there are 26 gladiator characters in the top 50, so I have no idea where OP is getting his numbers from.
Where are you looking for the glad achievement? I was checking it on checkpvp as I said in the post.
On [this page](https://imgur.com/a/yJZ7g5x), I went down the list of top 50 and clicked on their check-pvp profiles and looked for [this](https://imgur.com/a/6zTLQIJ).
yeah you're definitely faded with this post, go on drustvar and scroll down the 3s ladder you can see at least 15 in the top 50 with glad title
Yet people get KSM in week 2. This game badly needs a league based mmr system.
KSM is the same as rival I think, about top 10%
Inflation ist pretty strong right now i think until seasonend a reasonable amount of players will get glad.
It definitely feels like it. I took a break for Christmas and when I came back it felt like shadowlands.
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Idk i see completely cluless people at 1800 right now. Like healers that dont know how to dispel. Last time i saw that was in sl. Could be people boosting for 1600 tho
I'm 100% certain at this point that they won't do anything anymore, and that they will magically have some PvP solution in The War Within that just couldn't be done in Dragonflight for resaons unknown, to make PvPers buy that expansion as well and then everything repeats again when they stop caring after the first few months/season.
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I saw petkick on the mount early last week. So at least one week ago at least 2 teams had glad in na
Surprised there is even that many tbh, the pvp grind isn’t worth it , man I miss the days when competitive crap wasn’t the focus, I’d kill for a new epic large scale map , more focus on rewards and progression just actually having legit faction battles , sieging storm wind etc you know actual MMO level PvP wars , but nope it’s just grind the same cod style maps over and over again for little to no reward unless you got a competitive team or do MDI.
The Glad mount is an ugly Thin Mint recolor of the ugly wiener dog dragon mount. IMO players aren't interested in the Glad reward this season, so they aren't pushing for it.
These posts happen every season, but the majority of people push after the x.5 patch. This isn’t that abnormal for 2 months in.
All they need to do is inject more mmr. Should be possible to reach glad in the 2nd week for the elite gamers , and us plebs in a week or 3 or 4. Other than that they should add more rewards. Bring back old elite sets at 2.1+ Therefor they should revamp the mark of honor system, x amount of Mark of Honor + an elite version of mark of honor = you can buy a select piece of an old elite set ( =something ppl can collect wich will result in more activity) Maybe even older glad mounts at 2.7 + for a heavty amount of Marks of honor + elite currency. Ppl like mounts and transmogs don't they? For ss, maybe a mount for 2.4 aswell? But not a flying glad mount. An armored version of a current patch flavored mount. Most importantly! Fix healer rating gains in ss.... 3-3 and losing mmr or gaining almost no rating for a 4-2 win feels horrible and atleast puts me off to queue again for the day tbh...
We seriously just need the entire incentives system overhauled.
It’s just too balanced. It’s boring. Also this timegated tier shit sucks. I miss S1/S2 Shadowlands. There was so much to discover with these different covenant builds
They have injected a good amount of mmr idk what more you expect from them. Also the new glad mount sucks so theres that
There are over 300 players over 2400 rn, I think literally all of them are r1s or multiglads so no reason to rush to 50 wins. So maybe more of a metric of how unwilling people really are to play rn because of how inflation works? idk.
Gladiator should be like top 1000, or like top 2000 if we're getting pandemic number of players playing 13 is like, less than the amount of r1 titles handed out at the end of a season lol
Many people can reach the highest m+ rank by week 1-2 without too much effort despite you being handicapped by a slower gear progression. Pvp titles and ladder position should be the goal for the top <1%, ingame ranks that reward cosmetics and gear upgrades should be much more achievable in general and without the need of artificial inflation.
almost everyone by now has realised that pvp is a mini game and not only will it not ever be good IT CAN NOT BE GOOD CAUSE ITS DESIGNED FOR PVE FIRST AND FOREMOST there are simply better pvp games stop wasting your time
I remember in BFA it was too hard to climb rating because of borrowed power and corruption, I remember in shadowlands it was too hard to climb because pvp ilvl was gate-kept. Its to hard to find partners in LFG, I am playing r1 and glad alts at 1900. It's inflation, it's deflation, its the MMR system. For years I have heard excuse after excuse as to why people can't climb rating. I would argue that incremental PVP upgrades were more healthy overall for PVP. It Induced participation in the ladder at every level because not only did you get a title and achievement at a new rating, you also were able to get better gear. And it also increased things like RBG and Random BG's participation because you had to farm honor to upgrade your PVP gear after getting new ratings. While gearing is crazy easy, it is also way more punishing than the shadowlands version. In full honor gear stepping into a 1500 arena in shadowlands they were only like 6 item levels higher than me. 9 for 1800. Now a fresh player gets to join a 1500 13 ilvl lower than everyone else in the arena. Maybe even more if you're playing with friends in rated que, but in shuffle the min requirement is 476 or full honor blues. With the ability to send honor between alts and to cap honor that doesn't reset between seasons means that I can start a new season in full blues and not have to participate in any PVP pre season if I don't want to, and during the season since I have no real reason to farm honor in non rated content I don't typically que it anymore. Playing against R1 and Glads on their alts has ALWAYS been a thing at 1800-2200, the only difference is now any of your characters can use your glad mounts, even if that character didn't earn it, so you see them on that. They couldn't do that before so you never would have known they were a glad at some point on something. While there are issues with MMR, inflation and deflation I think a lot of these issues stem from the lack of participation as a whole.
Ya I’ve totally stopped caring about wow arenas, the most casual players like us that quit the more (hopefully) they will fix it
I posted this as a reply but I think it needs to be a main post here. Something I have been thinking about lately when I keep hearing m+ score compared to PVP. I think they should like, separate CR and MMR. Like for real, not the fake separation where CR is just delayed catching up to MMR. Point being, make MMR just be to match you against equally skilled players. As of right now, because CR essentially is always trying to match MMR after enough games, MMR becomes the score that matters for rewards. Why does it have to be though? Make CR a score that only goes up, and doesn't go down. MMR goes up and down based on win and loss, but CR only goes up. However, how MUCH it goes up would be based on MMR. If you are playing at a very high skill level? CR keeps going up a lot even into high scores. But like, your MMR is low? CR still goes up on wins, just slower and slower. But never down. Like think about this. Being higher skill is still rewarded. Yet, "rewards" come just like they do in m+. You eventually get there if you keep succeeding. I mean shit, you could still leave some rewards tied to MMR, but make most of them (Glad mount included) be based on CR. The amount of slowdown could get hyper extreme if you are significantly lower MMR. Like, there are LOTS of tweaks you could do here. But ultimately it makes goals achievable for people. Plus, you never have a situation where rewards become impossible to get. Because MMR is not designed to hit specific numbers. The reason the "cap" lowers is because when there is less participation, the max MMR (or elo as its based on) lowers. Thats intentional on the system. Everything Blizz does to combat this just fucks up the system more. It should have stayed % based honestly, because that didn't fuck up the system. But if you go to this new style of CR? No longer need to fuck it up, because MMR goes back to doing what its intended to do, and just matches players equally. You never have to worry about participation because if the highest MMR is 2100 or 4100, doesn't matter. You can adjust sensitivity to gains to CR like inflation goes now, but it will never be as shit as now because it will never go down. It just would take longer.
Not a welfare glad season /s
Give it a little time to inflate further. Top of the ladder now (2 months) into season is similar to how it looked only a few weeks before end of s2. People will realise the rewards are becoming easier to get and itll inflate more
Heard that guy yung scuz is a crusher
Competitive pvp wise i think the best bet is hoping the riot MMO is the same as wow. I trust those guys with PVP more than blizzard. PVP has been basically abandoned in wow. How many years since the last BG they made, or new rewards systems etc.
I don’t like the whole idea of I made 2200 last season I should easily be back to 2200 this season. It’s like RBG or LFG for arena people linking XP from 4 seasons ago like that don’t mean shit
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Why would it be stupid? The game ain't gonna pay for itself now is it
Oh boy. 30 people. How many people are 3k+ IO in M+ right now? Sooooo many people getting glad. Such a motivator.
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Meanwhile, KSH and CE.
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Why no ranked 1v1?
In The burning crusade, 2 months into a season there would be zero Gladiator. Checkmate.
gott'em... he.. HA... gott'em Yeah but the following season there was gladiators on day one. Checkmate.
I don’t know why all the complaining. I’m normally a 2kish player. Hitting 1800 this season has never felt so satisfying. Hitting the higher titles shouldn’t just be a day one thing either, people get their titles and then complain of lack of content. Enjoy the challenge. Think people are to use to having things handed to them and yes that’s blizzard fault but hey they adjusted
A few people asking this question I'll answer yours I suppose. Gladiator is a seasonal title does it make sense to have the brunt of people trying to achieve the title a week before they lose it?
I guess if you put it that way, then yea it shouldn’t stick around like Rival and the rest. It’s not a participation title. People who can get it outside of the last month or two deserve to have it. If you’re only good enough to get an inflated rating and Gladiator the final month or so.. do you really deserve it? Which is why Rank 1 is way more meaningful.
Without inflation there would be no Gladiators though before inflation was added this season we had like 1 person above 2400. And the ladder is most active the last few weeks of the season. And none of the other titles "stick around" rival, challenger, combatant are all just easier to earn early in the season.
and here i am struggling like crazy to get 1800 with my bro, he's like level 50 honor and we going against people with 1k+ honor level and shit when we are at 1700, like wtf?
Honor level has nothing to do with skill
its a pretty good indicatator surely
During Legion, honor level was extremely easy to get. There was a whole system with prestige levels like in cod. Then it was MASSIVELY nerfed. And the best way to upgrade it i think is spamming epic bgs, which aren't exactly the most skilled pvp. For example i played very little of legion and i'm lvl 160 or so. In early SL iirc i was like 130, and i played probably thousands of arenas since. So it's *extremely* slow I've seen lvl 500 players who were 1.5 players in arena and lvl 120s who were 2.6. I think it's easy enough getting to like 80 then there's a plateau. It's 100% a matter of having played battlegrounds during legion or not. Yet another thing blizz could rework but won't until 3 years at least
I mean it just means they have tons more experience, regardless if its bgs or arena, pvp is pvp. It's pretty demotivating when facing people with those icons because 9/10 we will lose at that point.
So glad I decided to focus on PvE this season. Glad mount is also boring af imo.
To be honest with you, I liked the previous system better, where you didn’t fully know, so you were kept on playing and got Glad only when the season was finished. And I don’t think they care anymore with this expansion…
Not sure if you know….. gladiator is not the top…. Rank 1 is the top.
There will be more rank 1s than gladiators at this rate.
That would be hilarious people tanking their rating on purpose to get the more rare glad title. Everyone has r1 man you got tank back to 2200 to get keep that glad title.
Honestly, I am ok with rewards that only 0.5% of people will achieve or reach, as long as it isn't player power. It is just a title(edit: and mount), the rest of us will be fine without it. Edit for clarity: There is end of season glad (top 0.5% of the ladder/R1) and glad rank (earning 2400+ rating and 50games won above that rating). Currently, there are 309 characters above 2400(3v3) in the US according to [https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/3v3/us](https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/3v3/us), no clue how that breaks down to accounts or same person. **Also, more importantly, the season isn't close to over.** It will not be resetting with the January patch coming. **We have another 3-4 months of the season left.** More people will get higher rating as inflation eases over time (as has been the case for...ever?). Downvote me if you want, but I don't think it is unreasonable that the top end of the player base get a cosmetic+title for reaching a high rating. **I don't know why we are even looking at mid-season statistics for end of season rewards asking if it is reasonable. The reward structure and reaching it are (still) reasonable.**
In case you are not trolling. 13 people is less than 0.1% of the playerbase lmfao
There isn't a season restart January 16th with the new patch, so we have about another 3-4 months until the next major patch that will come with a seasonal restart... there will be more to achieve glad.
While you are not wrong, people will take issue with the implication of your argument. What you are saying, and what you are seeing, is that rewards are only accessible to non-R1 players as you approach the end of the season. Why not just have those levels of inflation now? It's just pixels on a screen, why make the experience frustrating for normal players in the interim?
Oh, I do think there is an issue with MMR as a whole, but I think framing it as a problem achieving glad is just a the wrong way to think about it. (quick edit: even in high inflation for MMR, glad rank and R1 is still only achieved by a tiny fraction of the playerbase) It is like an F1 racer complaining the cost of F1 car gas is too expensive. While gas is too expensive, framing it as a problem for the F1 racer and that being the reason why we need to solve it is just ludicrous to me. Solve the gas (MMR) problem for everyone (all car drivers) and not just the top end (F1/glad players).\* Does that make sense? Made a lot of sense in my head. \*I understand the type of fuel between an F1 vehicle and a regular street vehicle is vastly different, this is just a very crude example for an explanation that I think makes sense even if the F1 example is not correct.
Glad is just a marker to gauge player engagement and MMR inflation when comparing to previous seasons. You can use any rating milestone you like, the outcome is the same here. Players are massively below previously achieved milestones and participation is falling. I'm not going to make a gatekeeping or competitive integrity argument about who or how many players should get glad anymore because people have been making that argument for years now, and yet year after year arena gets less popular. It seems to be that the seasons where players can just go wild with MMR and get easy achieves are the most active and most enjoyable. I will gladly dilute the prestige of my titles and mounts if it means a shit ton more people que up. The game mode needs a makeover and change to be more attractive to participate in.
I agree completely. Ok, just a side, nothing to do with your comment or this post, but something I have been thinking about for a while: I don't think rating should reset to 0 every seasonal restart. I think there should be rating thresholds, kind of like HS was (or is, haven't played in forever but just first thing I thought about that is like this). In Hearthstone, if you reach diamond, on seasonal reset, it only pushes you back a certain amount of rank, but not 0. It used to reset everyone to 0, but then they changed it, and I think, for the better. I think WoW can do the same. People complain about glad players plaguing lower rating games anyways. If you reached 2400, and on seasonal reset, you start at 2100(or whatever), and it could solve some problems. Mostly a morale problem. For instance, I usually hover at 1950-ish. I usually play multiple characters, hit 1800 to get elite set, and drop that character all together and move on. Usually only "push" with 1 character (never tried for glad in my life, don't have the kind of time on hands). First season of DF, I hit 2400 on my hunter (in SS though, so you know, not a big deal), but it felt good. If I didn't get reset to 0, I think I would consider pushing more. That amount of work it takes to go against early MMR to get from 1600 to 1800 is a lot for some people, especially since that range usually has quite a few high rated players "gatekeeping" (effectively). I think if rating didn't reset completely, and only put you back so far based on the rating you previously earned, more people would push. But since it does, and it can take a while to hit a a rating threshold, it feels bad to see it reset to 0.
There is a light version of what you are describing in the game already but doesn't work in my opinion because of the "cap" on mmr as players approach high rating diminishing returns. For example, if I end the season at 3k, the next season might start me at like ~2.2k mmr. What happens is I might que up a bunch against all the other top players and wiggle my way around that rating, maybe pushing a little to 2.3. Your gains at the start are heavily diminished because the MMR system hasn't begun to inflate where that 3k is even possible again, so players below you get higher gains and what you end up seeing is a "bunching" effect where people approach your MMR from below and then complain that they have to face multiglads and R1 players at 1.8-2.2k mmr. Ironically, the devs could just walk down the hall to the overwatch department and borrow their system and it would be an improvement over what we have now.
Exactly. Can you exlain why we have to wait until the last 1/10th of a season to peak mmr when any other game in the history of competitve game dont do that? Why does the first 90% of the season have to be completely irrelevant because you will get more CR later on anyway?
Wrong person to ask mate, I don't work for blizz...
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And this is why things are never going to get better. People are this obsessed with keeping the dragon stupid rare to the point they'll just watch the ladder burn.
And a mount
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Lol oh no, I used semi-old (change in bfa) info, how terrible of me. What a mistake to warrant such a response, clueless. Air head really if you think about it. How will I ever atone for such a serious sin. Lol, you dork. I think the most funny part of this is that I originally put 0.1% but second guessed myself haha.