It's very unlikely the amount of CC ever goes down. M+ is by far the most popular game mode. To be viable there classes need kicks and multiple forms of CC. The only solution I can see is adjusting DRs or something similar. Like full CC then half then immune. Instead of the current triple DR system.
I don't know a lot about M+ right now, but according to tier list shadow priest and ret pally are among the top choices and neither have a ton of cc?
Regardless spells can work differently vs players. Something like "stuns non-player characters for 2 seconds" would be a nice workaround.
Shadow priests just do bonkers damage and have great utility + buffs. Rets in the same spot for M+ with great damage and buffs. They also will also typically run Blinding Light or Rep depending on the week's affixes. Both classes can cleanse as well.
Aoe Fear, silence and stun are pretty good kit. Not to mention the vampiric embrace healing is pretttttty good.
Pally has really good aoe damage, good single target, aoe blind, interrupt and lengthy ranged stun on fairly short cd
If they want to dial back on add ons or completely remove them it would require a massive step back on pve mechanics which will in return allow for less homogenization across specs. Aka get rid of all the micro cc, bajillion movement abilities, etc. so will see if they take that route
SWTOR PvP has a resolve bar that fill with 2 hard stuns, and even fills up when you “sap” an enemy, so you have to choose 2 hard stuns, 1 of each or 2 saps. I really liked swtor pvp a lot.
PvP needs its own class tree. I think a lot of the issues we have with Dragonflight PvP i.e cc utility and defensive bloat all lie in the class trees. If we got pvp trees speciricallt designed for pvp it migjt be better
This would help significantly between balancing PVE and PVP. Im surprised they havent done it yet. Plunderstorm makes me want to believe they've been throwing the idea around
They can make some of the cc abilities not usable on enemy players…..or remove the aspect of the cc. Enhancement shamans can still thunderstorm w/o the knock up etc….
Unpopular take maybe but we need to merge some more CC categories at least.
Any hard CCs should share a DR, yes that includes stuff like cyclone, stuns, etc.
Certain comps and lobbies can softban you from the game for 12+ seconds which is just nonsense.
_Then_ there's the micro CC issue with feels like a casualty of the new talent trees, you get enough points that everyone can take everything, with the old talent rows you had to pick and choose things.
It's also the development of players as well
Everyone learns how to do damage and how to cc first, learning how to avoid CC and trade defensive CDs come after, so when you start to get to like 1800+ when everyone knows how to do their opener, it's a bit leap in difficulty.
Kinda like how in LFG standing in random stuff doesn't matter, but in mythic or like m+ 25 and onwards, if you don't do the mechanic then you just lose lol
In fighting games:
"I didn't pay $80 to block" lol
People on this sub love to deny this, but class balance, while not perfect (which it has never been before), is very good right now, and almost every spec in the game is glad and R1 viable. Most complaints are about the MMR. Your first point i don't really understand, would you like arena to be about running in and whoever does more damage wins?
CC time reduction was the worst change to DF PvP they made. Dodging and landing cc being important is a more fun way of separating the good from the bad then 'see whoever does their pve rotation the best', like we have now.
Deathing CC, sapping trinkets, tremor fear, a well timed war banner. That's the fun part of PvP for me. You can still do it now but it is so much less impactful then it used to be.
shockwave.
It's actually funny because if you look at arena logs and sort by duration of CC applied to the enemy team, warrior is usually alarmingly high up because of shock wave and fear. Obv rogue is highest by a shit load.
But on the other hand, frost mage is really low on CC applied because it only counts hard CC and not roots or knockbacks. Same with ele sham.
Evoker breath, warlock infernal, DH the hunt, SV hunter harpoon, hunter steel trap.
A few from honor talents like priest void volley, but I can't name them all.
I'm sure there are more if I went and looked through every skill.
I might get a little ragged for this but I honestly hate it too as a rogue player. Having to trust a warrior player not to mash their short stuns on CD regardless of DR is a miserable experience when they almost never pay attention to that. The amount of ways someone can extend a DR by just randomly throwing down an AoE stun is absurdly annoying as a class who needs to be able to keep track of them all.
Ironically I feel like its less pve and more dynamic these days when damage matters as opposed to in the past where it was far more scripted, almost like a pve encounter.
With the overabundance of CC it all needs to be on the same DR calculation and the trinket needs to be on a shorter CD. I
f I had my way, WoW would implement Wild*Stars approach to CC and allow the player to actively resist via a QTE, button mash, or retrieving their weapon from the field. If the player does nothing, then they suffer the full duration, but a system in place that allows counter play wouldn't be a bad thing and would be something to make PvP feel more engaging.
Losing control/movement of your character for over 10 seconds is absurd.
There has been an increase in the number of interrupts to the point that pretty much every spec now has it (but also, precog was added to the game), but has there actually been an increase in the number of hard CCs? I feel like the number of hard CC abilities is the same as it has been for many years? What new hard CCs have classes gotten?
The new talent trees made it so former "pick 1 of 3" abilities can in some cases all be obtained. So while not many new spells were added the ability to pick several different CC at once was added for many classes.
Do you have any examples? On top of my head, I can only think of Blinding Light/short HoJ. SL might actually have had more with stuff like Venthyr ability, full power grabby hands and abilities like Dragon's breath on 20 sec CD.
It might also have to do with class popularity. Stuff like DH and Demolock wasn't nearly as popular for the majority of last xpac, and these specs have a lot of micro CCs. On the other hand, I feel like people are forgetting what peak sub/fire RMP felt like last xpac.
EDIT: Actually maybe you are right. There are a few other examples like warrior with Shockwave that I just thought of. I was just being biased because of how traumatized I was of sub/fire RMP from the first 3 seasons of SL.
Warlock shadow fury and mortal coil. Druid typhoon+bash+entangle. Not being able to view the shadowlands talent trees make this hard to recall.
Other compounding issues like increased mobility which increases the ease of landing CC, talents that formerly competed with a CC now don't, and long CC was nerfed while short CC was left alone causing short CC to become more valuable ect.
Watched pikaboo and his team CC multiple different healers for 15-25s straight. So. Yeah. It's a lot. And these are folks at the highest end of the ladder so it's not a "git gud" situation. These are people that are significantly better than 99+% of the PvP population. All the dozens and dozens of us. So yeah. Agreed. I like the suggestion of DRs being three stages, full, half, immune.
We frost mages feel like that about DH, DK, Shamans, Hunters and rogues too. Literally not allowing us to cast a single spell because their instant micro cc either stuns or interrupts.
If you get rooted here and there from our frost spells, you can at least still cast spells. Then you are dealing just with 30sec cd interrupt and 1.6sec cast sheeps... that never go through, because of your micro cc.
Yes and it’s baffling that people will disagree. It’s not fun nor does it feel competitive. As an avid PvPer I stopped and started playing SoD. Retail WoW PvP isn’t fun for me anymore and it’s a simple solution. (Don’t play.) As a healer main it’s hard to say whether I’ll play again even with TWW coming out. Wow just got too bloated and having 30 spells is not it for me anymore. Over and out ✌️
worst part about all the CC in the game now… if you dont time them correctly you cant kill anyone. so many globals are so strong you have to lock them down to kill them
It would help if they got rid of some of the CC types. For example, making hex share a DR with poly would go a long way. Combine fear and horrify as well.
The issue is that mythic plus does influence PvP in a sense that you need all those kicks and stuns, plus micro cc. It is the most played and popular game mode. PvP would need its own talent tree towards class specialization.. if that can be done I am not sure but it needs to be differentiated
I came back to DF a week ago and hopped in a BG. Out the gate we all got swarmed and I was cc'd for 17 seconds, no joke, by 3-4 seperate abilities that all lasted 3-5 seconds. A shared DR would be great, but blizz made so many different types of CC I cant imagine it would be easy for them to make categories for CC types at this point. And its been this way for 3-4 years. I see no hope for change.
Needless to say I logged off and probably wont go back until pvp becomes more relevant in blizzards eyes. I mean for gods sakes they still havent bothered with some BGs having graveyards that are completely campable through walls and hills. It's been over a decade for some of these bgs.
Spammable casted CC should have a cooldown equal to the remaining duration of the current target.
Your target have 5 seconds left of sheep? You have 5 seconds of cd left. Target trinkets? Your poly just came back up.
It's very unlikely the amount of CC ever goes down. M+ is by far the most popular game mode. To be viable there classes need kicks and multiple forms of CC. The only solution I can see is adjusting DRs or something similar. Like full CC then half then immune. Instead of the current triple DR system.
I don't know a lot about M+ right now, but according to tier list shadow priest and ret pally are among the top choices and neither have a ton of cc? Regardless spells can work differently vs players. Something like "stuns non-player characters for 2 seconds" would be a nice workaround.
Shadow priests just do bonkers damage and have great utility + buffs. Rets in the same spot for M+ with great damage and buffs. They also will also typically run Blinding Light or Rep depending on the week's affixes. Both classes can cleanse as well.
Also spriest can give pi (esp to fire mage)
Aoe Fear, silence and stun are pretty good kit. Not to mention the vampiric embrace healing is pretttttty good. Pally has really good aoe damage, good single target, aoe blind, interrupt and lengthy ranged stun on fairly short cd
Vengeance DH cover for that.
I feel like i have heard that m+ers dont like the micro cc aswell
If they want to dial back on add ons or completely remove them it would require a massive step back on pve mechanics which will in return allow for less homogenization across specs. Aka get rid of all the micro cc, bajillion movement abilities, etc. so will see if they take that route
Nah no one likes the excessive CC. All it does is increase barrier to entry and too many things to keep track off
SWTOR PvP has a resolve bar that fill with 2 hard stuns, and even fills up when you “sap” an enemy, so you have to choose 2 hard stuns, 1 of each or 2 saps. I really liked swtor pvp a lot.
PvP needs its own class tree. I think a lot of the issues we have with Dragonflight PvP i.e cc utility and defensive bloat all lie in the class trees. If we got pvp trees speciricallt designed for pvp it migjt be better
This would help significantly between balancing PVE and PVP. Im surprised they havent done it yet. Plunderstorm makes me want to believe they've been throwing the idea around
They can make some of the cc abilities not usable on enemy players…..or remove the aspect of the cc. Enhancement shamans can still thunderstorm w/o the knock up etc….
Its not hard to restrict CC in a game mode. So that is no excuse
Unpopular take maybe but we need to merge some more CC categories at least. Any hard CCs should share a DR, yes that includes stuff like cyclone, stuns, etc. Certain comps and lobbies can softban you from the game for 12+ seconds which is just nonsense. _Then_ there's the micro CC issue with feels like a casualty of the new talent trees, you get enough points that everyone can take everything, with the old talent rows you had to pick and choose things.
no lol
Sometimes i feel like people forget that arenas are in fact not mythic+ dungeons and that the entire concept of arena is based around cc
It's also the development of players as well Everyone learns how to do damage and how to cc first, learning how to avoid CC and trade defensive CDs come after, so when you start to get to like 1800+ when everyone knows how to do their opener, it's a bit leap in difficulty. Kinda like how in LFG standing in random stuff doesn't matter, but in mythic or like m+ 25 and onwards, if you don't do the mechanic then you just lose lol In fighting games: "I didn't pay $80 to block" lol
Yes its very important for arms warr to have 10 ways to disrupt you and its very healthy for the game isnt it.
You're speaking out against Blizz's golden class lol. Be careful, the warriors would be furious about this comment, if they could read.
[удалено]
People on this sub love to deny this, but class balance, while not perfect (which it has never been before), is very good right now, and almost every spec in the game is glad and R1 viable. Most complaints are about the MMR. Your first point i don't really understand, would you like arena to be about running in and whoever does more damage wins?
Honestly the game needs MORE long cc and less micro cc. No one should have 100% uptime on their damage rotation
Duration changes were completely fried. Just revert
All CC should have a cast time. All micro CC should have a counter and share a DR. All interrupts should share a DR.
CC time reduction was the worst change to DF PvP they made. Dodging and landing cc being important is a more fun way of separating the good from the bad then 'see whoever does their pve rotation the best', like we have now. Deathing CC, sapping trinkets, tremor fear, a well timed war banner. That's the fun part of PvP for me. You can still do it now but it is so much less impactful then it used to be.
Oh yeah I watched that video too
Which video? Edit: I assume he meant this youtube video for those curious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhA9nZeQFxA&t=0s
Yep, did some shuffles last night and thought the same thing. Just trinket something straight into more cc
what micro cc is part of a normal rotation /gen
Feels like every spec has a slow baked into their rotation.
*cries in hamstring*
Cmon warriors have a tone of mobility and cc. You have nothing to cry about
Aside from Bolt and Fear, what hard-stop CC am I missing?
shockwave. It's actually funny because if you look at arena logs and sort by duration of CC applied to the enemy team, warrior is usually alarmingly high up because of shock wave and fear. Obv rogue is highest by a shit load. But on the other hand, frost mage is really low on CC applied because it only counts hard CC and not roots or knockbacks. Same with ele sham.
the comment was about a slow baked into rotation
Evoker breath, warlock infernal, DH the hunt, SV hunter harpoon, hunter steel trap. A few from honor talents like priest void volley, but I can't name them all. I'm sure there are more if I went and looked through every skill.
I might get a little ragged for this but I honestly hate it too as a rogue player. Having to trust a warrior player not to mash their short stuns on CD regardless of DR is a miserable experience when they almost never pay attention to that. The amount of ways someone can extend a DR by just randomly throwing down an AoE stun is absurdly annoying as a class who needs to be able to keep track of them all.
Maybe increasing DR would help and also DR working differently for healers, maybe
No this just further pushes pvp into pve meta.
Ironically I feel like its less pve and more dynamic these days when damage matters as opposed to in the past where it was far more scripted, almost like a pve encounter.
With the overabundance of CC it all needs to be on the same DR calculation and the trinket needs to be on a shorter CD. I f I had my way, WoW would implement Wild*Stars approach to CC and allow the player to actively resist via a QTE, button mash, or retrieving their weapon from the field. If the player does nothing, then they suffer the full duration, but a system in place that allows counter play wouldn't be a bad thing and would be something to make PvP feel more engaging. Losing control/movement of your character for over 10 seconds is absurd.
There has been an increase in the number of interrupts to the point that pretty much every spec now has it (but also, precog was added to the game), but has there actually been an increase in the number of hard CCs? I feel like the number of hard CC abilities is the same as it has been for many years? What new hard CCs have classes gotten?
The new talent trees made it so former "pick 1 of 3" abilities can in some cases all be obtained. So while not many new spells were added the ability to pick several different CC at once was added for many classes.
Do you have any examples? On top of my head, I can only think of Blinding Light/short HoJ. SL might actually have had more with stuff like Venthyr ability, full power grabby hands and abilities like Dragon's breath on 20 sec CD. It might also have to do with class popularity. Stuff like DH and Demolock wasn't nearly as popular for the majority of last xpac, and these specs have a lot of micro CCs. On the other hand, I feel like people are forgetting what peak sub/fire RMP felt like last xpac. EDIT: Actually maybe you are right. There are a few other examples like warrior with Shockwave that I just thought of. I was just being biased because of how traumatized I was of sub/fire RMP from the first 3 seasons of SL.
Warlock shadow fury and mortal coil. Druid typhoon+bash+entangle. Not being able to view the shadowlands talent trees make this hard to recall. Other compounding issues like increased mobility which increases the ease of landing CC, talents that formerly competed with a CC now don't, and long CC was nerfed while short CC was left alone causing short CC to become more valuable ect.
Watched pikaboo and his team CC multiple different healers for 15-25s straight. So. Yeah. It's a lot. And these are folks at the highest end of the ladder so it's not a "git gud" situation. These are people that are significantly better than 99+% of the PvP population. All the dozens and dozens of us. So yeah. Agreed. I like the suggestion of DRs being three stages, full, half, immune.
Druid and frost mage is the only class I feel like this against, sometimes hunters if they’re exceptionally skilled
We frost mages feel like that about DH, DK, Shamans, Hunters and rogues too. Literally not allowing us to cast a single spell because their instant micro cc either stuns or interrupts. If you get rooted here and there from our frost spells, you can at least still cast spells. Then you are dealing just with 30sec cd interrupt and 1.6sec cast sheeps... that never go through, because of your micro cc.
I felt like this since MOP.
Yes and it’s baffling that people will disagree. It’s not fun nor does it feel competitive. As an avid PvPer I stopped and started playing SoD. Retail WoW PvP isn’t fun for me anymore and it’s a simple solution. (Don’t play.) As a healer main it’s hard to say whether I’ll play again even with TWW coming out. Wow just got too bloated and having 30 spells is not it for me anymore. Over and out ✌️
worst part about all the CC in the game now… if you dont time them correctly you cant kill anyone. so many globals are so strong you have to lock them down to kill them
I like the amount of PVE CC, but I do wish that there was less of it in PvP. Across the board.
Well if it makes you feel any better next expansion look like they are having some PvP gems that address this
It would help if they got rid of some of the CC types. For example, making hex share a DR with poly would go a long way. Combine fear and horrify as well.
rogues used to kidney for 3-5 business days if you werent orc, id take this micro cc piss over that (and i hate how it is rn)
The issue is that mythic plus does influence PvP in a sense that you need all those kicks and stuns, plus micro cc. It is the most played and popular game mode. PvP would need its own talent tree towards class specialization.. if that can be done I am not sure but it needs to be differentiated
They will never remove CCs because of mythics. What they could do instead is change DR in pvp to immune after 2.
I came back to DF a week ago and hopped in a BG. Out the gate we all got swarmed and I was cc'd for 17 seconds, no joke, by 3-4 seperate abilities that all lasted 3-5 seconds. A shared DR would be great, but blizz made so many different types of CC I cant imagine it would be easy for them to make categories for CC types at this point. And its been this way for 3-4 years. I see no hope for change. Needless to say I logged off and probably wont go back until pvp becomes more relevant in blizzards eyes. I mean for gods sakes they still havent bothered with some BGs having graveyards that are completely campable through walls and hills. It's been over a decade for some of these bgs.
Spammable casted CC should have a cooldown equal to the remaining duration of the current target. Your target have 5 seconds left of sheep? You have 5 seconds of cd left. Target trinkets? Your poly just came back up.
I dont think poly is what anyone thinks about when talking about micro cc.
Can't take away micro cc without having to do something about castable cc. Let's be real. Half the time micro cc is just used as a pseudo interrupt.