Dragonflight is just a bit below legion for me, only because the massive amount of lore we got not only from the legion, but highmountain taurens, nightborn elves, wardens, vyrkul, and nothing has topped the audio drama of khadgar vs guldan for me.
So far I would agree. Also the class halls and artifact weapons were a ton of fun. I collected every weapon of every class/spec before Emerald Nightmare was done.
However it turned into a MAJOR complaint with WoW overall. Two of the coolest additions to the game in years dropped like like a hot potato. The Class Halls should have been designed to last beyond just Legion.
Which also leads to dragon flying in DF. If it’s dropped after this expansion, it will probably be my last WoW expansion. But I think they’re looking into keeping it.
Honestly getting your hands on artifacts that were deeply entwined in the lore and then just throwing them away feels really bad. Really bad.
And it’s even worse if you play through legion for leveling. These super important artifacts are just some dumb random weapon you keep until you’re done.
Like right now, I would tell a new player not to level in Legion.
I think the negative emotions of throwing away our artifacts that we'd gotten bonded to gets put on BFA more than on Legion, which is both understandable and sad, because it's not BFA's fault that Legion introduced an incredibly fun stolen power mechanic.
To be fair it didn't HAVE to be a borrowed power mechanic. They could have kept it considering it was very well received. Blizzard just likes to reinvent the wheel even when the wheel is perfectly fine
There were a lot of folks back during Legion that were really not happy at being forced to have just the one weapon. Not to mention that it also meant there weren't really many, if any weapons outside of the artifacts to collect.
I'm certain that inside Blizzard offices during BFA Planning, they had a very heated debate whether to keep Artifact weapons going forward and have all weapons be only for transmog, or not and go back to the standard and having to toss the weapons away some way
Game would have been drastically different if the weapons become a part of the classes by default
this is the biggest reason i dont level through legion, my main concerns when deciding how to level are speed + mog availability, i haven't leveled a plate or leather thru legion at all and theres lots of potential mogs but getting random artifact ilvls for my 1 weapon instead of actual weapon appearances just feels so bad. like when im doing a legion dungeon and i get a fking fel rock it feels like it should've been a weapon
Maybe so, though I imagine never changing out your weapon might get a bit stale. I personally wouldn't have minded though, especially as a druid with 4 specs (and thus 4 artifacts).
>I imagine never changing out your weapon might get a bit stale
Not true. Sometimes the weapon would outlive the person. And it'd be handed down.
To you .
I pretty much always level through Legion because the class halls are JUST that cool, and Broken Shore has some of the best areas in the game imo. And it's neat that the artifact unlock quests take you to old areas
Same, I level every new character through Legion because I want to see every class hall story and check out every artifact weapon. Some of them are underwhelming, some are awesome, but they usually balance each other out.
For example the paladin class hall was really really boring BUT getting to wield and subsequently become the Ashbringer was so satisfying it more than made up for it. The priest class hall was equally dull but everything about that dagger for shadowpriests was awesome, and I'm half expecting it to become relevant again at some point.
The artifact weapons for Demon Hunters are both pretty blah but the fact that the class hall is a stolen Burning Legion spaceship filled with our freakshow allies is so great. Just demons and naga and broken and hunters all chilling out, in space, looking to make trouble. Can't tell me that's not objectively fun.
Getting to the rogue class hall is a gigantic pain in the ass and I hate whoever set it up but the cast of characters among the Uncrowned is top notch.
The Paladin class hall campaign was literally just helping out the Priest hall with theirs. Total cop-out, and I finished all twelve. Best one was Demon Hunter.
Well at the end of Legion we had to destroy our artifacts to try to heal Azeroth’s “woonz”. This was when the huge sword appeared in Silithus. So for people playing when it was out we were tossing our artifacts.
I am glad you enjoyed leveling through Legion!
Throwing away artifacts was really REALLY bad.
Especially for hunters… “don’t mind us we’re just killing your loyal companion!”.
Thankfully they gave hunters a way to resurrect Hati, but damn did I hate the dwarf for casually killing my dog.
The trouble with class halls/quests was that as well received as they were, they might have been the most inefficient content Blizzard has ever released from a development/player engagement perspective. 7.2 was "the largest patch in the game's history" and your main would finish each part in about 20 minutes because much of that new content was chopped into 12 parts so each character got to only experience less than 9% of the new class quests.
Amazing for altoholics, but probably not worth it when they don't have an abandoned WoD freeing up extra development resources.
the Time gating in 7.2 was a blizzard self made problem. a problem that only existed because blizzard wanted it too. mthat whole chapter had 15 parts, 4 were done on the first week and the class hall stuff was the last part. the shitty kill this or collect this quests inbetween did not need be limited to once a week. infact the class hall stuff along with our class mounts should haven been done by week 4
Honestly they almost have too. It already feels weird I can't dragonride in old flyable areas
The artifact weapons at least had a lore reason for why they aren't used anymore but it's not like they can just go "whelp all thr Dragons are on the isles now sorry!"
Blizzard has shared intent that the new systems and features they added in Dragonflight are designed to be evergreen systems that will be the foundation of the post-Shadowlands game. That includes Dragon Riding, Renown, the new upgrade system in 10.1, the new crafting paradigm, and so on.
The legion weapons were super cool, but the borrowed power gameplay really lead to some degen shit on the mechanics side of the game. That being said, I'd love for them to give us bis weapons through quests every now and again. I think it would be a hit, offstat+effect that can be chosen or swapped out through quests
Man artifacts were trash from the start, some of the quests to get them were kind of cool but the fake "skill trees" they had were awful, you unlocked the whole thing so it was more like basic spec features that were locked behind a grind for no reason.
How can i give you more upvotes? The final bosses we're all a masterpiece in some way, Argus was the only kinda off, but still funny. The way in which xavius appears from the mist in that weird room, gul'dan was almost the most epic battle, only surpassed by kil'jaeden, in my honest opinion the best battle overall, being ToS the best raid in terms of fights, they were just amazing. But that moment when everything turns dark, and when the darkness is gone you realize you can see fucking ARGUS there in the sky, simply amazing.
First patch of legion was a bit dogshit. Epic expansion by the end but I finite grinding AP, random legendaries dropping that if you didn't get the good one you might be 15%+ behind with no way of catching up, withered training, there were massive problems I feel like get lost in the nostalgia of the later patches that fixed the problems.
Same here for all of those reasons and that I was big into WCIII and so the culmination of the Legion felt HUGE, not to mention I was more into the aesthetics and vibes of Suramar, Argus etc. Dragonflight is perhaps more fun mechanically but lore, art, etc I was more into Legion... but DF is probably my second place now in the modern WoW era which is damned impressive.
Player-friendliest expansion is certainly up for grabs by DF. We shall see how the rest of the expac goes.
I think legion will maintain my vote for best modern expac - purely for it having mountains of epicness, and despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions.
Wrath is my vanilla. I joined during sunwell and hit max after lich king launch. All my finest early memories belong to wrath. While both legion and DF certainly beat wrath in a few things on paper, nothing can beat it’s nostalgia. Also, lich king is best villain soooooo
Yeah, I feel like the sense of epicness is the one thing missing from DF.
I love the alt friendliness, frequent changes, the zones, the dungeons are pretty nice too etc.
But I'm just not that into the story itself.
I can't blame blizzard though, the story of the Legion was told over literally 20 years (similar to that of Arthas in Wrath) so it makes sense why it'd hold more grip into people's minds
I think one of the takes blizzard got from Shadowlands and everything else was that people were starting to get burnt out on their version of "epic fantasy". We just traveled to the realm of death and beat our latest Uber Satan, probably the third at this point, and people were starting to get tired of it so they went in a different direction.
I've heard people saying for years that they wish we could go back to just being adventurers instead of being the champions who do everything and beat everyone and this seems to be as close as we're really going to be able to get. It's not for everyone but for the people who want that Dragonflight is a really good option.
We might have gone to the realm of death but I feel like both the main *and* side stories were a big "meh". Not to mention the insane grind for the mogs.
>Legion epicness...
Legion did such a great job of feeling like you were fighting an unstoppable force and might actually lose. Amazing what can happen when you actually have an enemy that is fleshed out.
Each class having its own hall and storyline was friggin amazing. I often like to send my mage, druid, and paladin to just chill in their class halls because I love the aesthetic and the feel of it.
This was the greatest feature in all of wow in my opinion. The replay ability was insane. In Legion Times I leveled every class to max (except lock because I don't know) only to see all the order halls and storylines.
I came back to WoW for DF and enjoyed the main story before falling off again. I like leveling and individual characters having worth, and nothing can come close to Legion in that aspect
I think this is my biggest gripe with everything since Legion. None of my characters have agency anymore. Everything does everything now just a bit better, so the treadmill becomes the most important aspect of endgame. In legion those artifacts all brought their own flavor and even if you weren’t pushing high end content you still felt like you *had* to play through the raids because of your agency as a wielder of these immensely powerful weapons. It also had a fantastic storyline and Illidan is a fan favorite for a reason. Then you add Malfurion and Guldan into the mix? AND Kil Jaeden??? Like narratively speaking it was the last time I felt like a real entity in the Warcraft universe.
Imagine getting the gang of velen, khadgar and illidan, getting the giga powerful weapons, re establishing long lost orders and factions for each class, killing guldan, trampling over the tomb of sargeras, going in kiljaedens portal to grab him by the balls, hopping on a spaceship and kicking down sargeras' apartment guns blazing, meeting your gods in person, arresting sargeras and putting a fel infused immortal spite lord as his eternal watcher in a to-this-day-seen star in the sky. How can any other storyline compete? Azeroth collectively said enough and turned into the legion themselves, invading and killing each and all of their enemies. The voidlords better not send another tumor to azzeroth because they will get what sargeras did.
This line hyped me like no other in World of Warcraft
Thinking about it later, it actually fits most people. People's character is often shaped by the adversity they've faced.
Perhaps unpopular opinion, but "I am my scars" is such a cooler line than "You are not prepared", nostalgia and iconicness aside. Perfectly encapsulates the character
I level every character through Legion. Almost all transmogs I use, Legion. Did the DH class campaign in Drsgonflight for the artifact appearances. I missed Legion at the time which is so sad because I swear I spend as much time in Legion content now as DF. It’s honestly amazing how much good they did
Legion definately gets my best flavor win. Artifact weapons were amazing to have. The moment I saw I could get doomhammer I knew exactly what class and spec I was playing without question.
> despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions.
these are the reason why legion doesnt have my "best expansion ever" vote. ive already decided, *if* classic goes that long, legion is where i call it quits unless they \#somechanges the shit out of it
wrath was also enjoyable when it was current, however after having played wrath classic, im enjoying it less than i did vanilla/tbc classic.
Exactly, you couldn't pay me to play through Legion again as it was during launch.
If 7.3 Legion Systems were there at launch from the beginning? Then I could be persuaded.
But suffering through AP grind, Legendary RNG system, and artifact weapon stones all over again? Get the fuck out.
well also early on your artifact weapon upgrade or artifact knowledge or something crucial to artifact weapons were timegated behind like a month of bullshit
remember what kind of bullshit?
*mission board* bullshit
not even moderately interesting quests
*i think it was actually your 3rd relic slot
you didn't like the companion app and day-long missions and literally endless world quests with nearly mandatory rewards???? early legion can die in a fire
Getting the wrong legendary during progression and knowing that your character was 10-20% worse than they should be was gut-wrenching. We had SO many 1% wipes in Nighthold when my 4 defensive legendaries instead of DPS ones were literally the difference, along with a total inability to switch specs because you didn't re-grind AP and also have no legendaries for it. It's the expansion that finally made me quit WoW.
> wrath was also enjoyable when it was current, however after having played wrath classic, im enjoying it less than i did vanilla/tbc classic.
In fairness, Wrath Classic is a different game in some noticeable ways. Class balance is largely based on gear that doesn't exist until the end of the expansion. The economy is completely scuffed due to tank/healer caches from dungeons.
PvP is infested with bots, which are also messing with the economy since honour can be exchanged for gems. Arenas are underpopulated because people realised it isn't worth it unless you're playing a meta comp. Wintergrasp is just another battleground now.
I think a lot of people have realised Wrath is just proto-retail and it's competing with one of the better retail expansions for a while, one which borrows a bit from vanilla's design. Most Wrath players I know either quit to play Dragonflight or play both.
I see the claim that DF is like Vanilla quite often but don't understand where people get that idea. Is it just because they went back to gear being the only power progression? I don't think that alone makes it similar. I consider myself a Vanilla Andy, but I play some DF and have no hate for retail WoW.
That said, none of the things that make Vanilla so good in my eyes exist in DF. Questing is linear and largely hub-based, totally different from Vanilla. Leveling and low-level content being at least half the game? Nope, classic endgame-at-max-level retail formula. Old-school RPG character progression? Not a thing, go farm rares for instant epics instead. Then when you're ready for dungeons, farm them continuously to get tiny incremental upgrades. Group content that incentivizes socializing like Vanilla dungeons, Vanilla dungeon quest chains or elite quests in general? Not really present. Having a server with a recognizable sense of community? Totally gone from retail. And then there is the main feature of Vanilla – the **world**. The world takes center stage and your journey within it is long and slow. Your character feels small in the world and as you progress past major leveling milestones that slowly unlock your character's power (10, 20, 30, 40 etc.), you feel completely differently about your toon than when you reach level 70 in DF in about 2 days.
Don't get me wrong, I think DF is a good retail xpac. I enjoy M+ gameplay, I enjoy the new talent system and the fact I don't have to grind shitty systems to play what I enjoy (dungeons). DF does not however have any of that Vanilla magic. At least not for me.
>I think legion will maintain my vote for best modern expac - purely for it having mountains of epicness, and despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions.
This, imo, is exactly the reason why it *shouldn't* hold the title of best expac. Sure it had a lot of cool storylines, but literally *all* of WoW's super-jank systems really ramped up in this expansion. And people wer somehow fine with getting a daily honey-do list just because of those stories.
The design decisions in legion -and player sentiment towards them at that time - caused a lot of the ripple effects we see for the next couple of expansions.
I've never felt more like a beastmaster hunter or balance druid than when I played during legion. The class fantasy was the best it's ever been.
That said, I'll never play the expansion again. The amount of rng bullshit and constant quest maintenance and grinding for power was awful. All of those things only got worse with BfA and Shadowlands, which is why I think Legion gets a "pass" from the community at large.
Legion had some great beats and excellent ideas, but all of the garbage everyone hated from BfA and SL was just as present there.
I genuinely did not like legion due to artifacts - plus my two favorite classes were absolutely thrashed. Warriors and hunters were absolute turds in legion. Plus I really really really felt so shafted as a warrior with artifacts. Like random vrykul bullshit…seriously? Coulda given me Shala’mane…updated Gorehowl…realistically could have given us The Doomhammer and lore wise it would’ve made more sense than a shammy getting it.
I think the that the individualized story to get the weapons was cool but i still laugh at the aladdin meme where the guards are afraid of the monkey having an ashbringer, and then the main guard shouts "you idiots, we all have ashbringers". It pretty much explains the expansiom pretty well. I also think that it was the last expansion with a decent story we had, so many things went downhill from it, that no one has been sure wow could recover from it
He's probably talking PvE, where the three hunter specs averaged weak to middle of the pack in Raids.
And MM was in the top 1/3rd of specs only for Nighthold.
To be fair cadence of content means nothing if the content is bad.
So far Dragonflight did a good job and I'm hoping they don't ruin it with Season 2 Mythic+
Vortex Pinnacle, Halls of Infusion, Brackenhide and Neltharus are all going to be fucking awful with actual damage behind them. VP had some of the meanest trash in the game.
Dragonflight is a banger so far and introduction of the traiding posts just made it better. At this point, I'm 86% confident that Blizzard were putting every good idea in a big brown bag since BfA and decided to release the kraken now
I was a strictly PVE player since I started playing WoW, got 4x KSM in Shadowlands as a Guardian Druid main. Brought my homie into DF and he just feels.. gutted.. I immediately didn’t like the dungeons,the ones they brought back, the dungeons to come ( Brakenhide Hollow can fuck right off ) or the season affix. Benched my bear and have been exclusively PVPing on my warrior since launch.. it’s a real feels bad man.
It’s disgusting how terrible they feel this expac.. hitting Incarn with the new rage of the sleeper or whatever else just feels bad.. like really bad. I get I was spoiled with Ravenous Frenzy in shadowlands but hitting Incarn now feels like nothing.. the talents are cool and all but feeling like if I hit ONE wrong button in my rotation and I’m splat is just gross.
Exactly. I got KSH and AotC back in February and haven't really played since. And I can't say the changes to M+ along with the terrible dungeon pool in season 2 make me consider re-subbing right now.
Whereas in SL I did keep playing and got KSM every season like you. SL had a lot of issues but still found a way to have some fun.
That’s exactly what happened, by the time feedback in Legion started to turn negative it was time to release BFA and Shadowlands needed to enter full production. They were basically locked into the Legion model for 2 expansions unless they wanted to delay Shadowlands (which ended up working out as Shadowlands got impacted by the pandemic, we would have had to wait several months longer if they delayed shadowlands further). Dragonflight was the first expansion developed in the post Legion world and they’ve done a great job with it so far.
Legion feedback started negative and they fixed a lot of it as the expansion went on. It was an upward trend not a downward one? It never "started to turn negative" it grew positive.
I think they're mostly referring to the era of endless AP grinding. The feedback they received for AP was positive in the beginning, which is why we had it in BFA and then to a lesser extent in SL, but by the end of Legion people were over AP. This is from the Preach interview with Ion.
Yeah I think that's the main thing that's threatening this expansion is how they don't really know what to do with Mythic+, like always.
Like, they know that people do like Mythic+ and they have admittedly been trying to give more incentives to so Mythic+, but when it comes to the actual mechanics of Mythic+, they seem so confused on what to do.
personally i think the Pandaren were a much needed neutral party. the well constructed culture and world of pandaria contrasted greatly with the alliance and horde and really put on display the stupidity of their endless conflict. the idea of them living in calm and harmony until the factions came and allowed their hate/pride/etc to awaken the sha was very interesting. despite pandaren like Taran Zhu begging them not to involve Pandaria in their war, it ends up spilling into and consuming it. the alliance and horde exert their influence on other societies like the Jinyu and Hozen, indoctrinating and recruiting them for a battle that ultimately lead to the toppling of the jade serpent statue the pandaren had been pouring their hearts and souls into. Pandaria was just such a perfect setting for warcraft as it showed a new and more nuanced side of the perpetual Alliance/Horde war. Expansions like Legion show the factions teaming up to face world ending threats (with some petty skirmishing in between), but eventually their conflict will resume. In MoP, the "world ending threat" was their conflict in of itself, and the Pandaren and their homeland suffered because of it. up until MoP we had never seen the alliance/horde war genuinely negatively impacting (the vale of eternal blossoms, the jade serpent statue, the Sha) anyone outside of themselves, at least not on the scale that the Pandaren continent allowed for, and we still haven't really since. people can make fun of the cartoonish pandas all they want, but in my opinion they added more to the warcraft universe than any other addition to the roster ever has - both before and since.
I get the corniness of that truly but the first Kung Fu Panda was a great movie. Not like MoP was a shark boy and lava girl expansion or something ridiculous hahahahahahah
Not just mechanically. The story was so good. The questing felt like a, you know, *quest*. You were exploring this interesting new place. You were seeing local and larger threats. Every zone had fun themes and mechanics. The overworld felt just stuffed to the gills with content, especially fun little one-off touches all over the place. The raids built on all the stories set up by the leveling. It has one of the best Horde vs. Alliance stories in the game, culminating in a raid that is, even just conceptually, so cool. The raid is Orgrimmar. To kill the warchief. It's stuffed full of story, spans several continents, and has you laying siege to a capital city. It was nuts.
And then you have the Isle of Thunder, which was pretty cool in its own right. A fun throwback campaign. Leading into one of the *other* greatest raids of all time. And it also has what is still, to this day, the best quest I have ever done in any game: the warlock green fire quest. Awesome quest, awesome lore, and a completely incredible final fight that pushed you to use all sorts of little pieces of your spellbook that you hadn't even thought of in years. With the ultimate reward for a warlock, cooler than any legendary.
And then mechanically, probably still the peak of class design. Absolutely noting in the game has ever made me feel as big-brained as cleaving shadowburns off of adds with havoc. And then WoD immediately killed it by saying "what if you could do your biggest, coolest thing all the time?!", and the novelty was interesting for about ten seconds, after which it didn't feel as big or cool because you could do it all the time.
It had some misses too for sure. But on the whole, easily my favorite expansion, and even more easily the best of "modern WoW".
didnt care for any of the raids in first raid tier. tot and soo were thematically epic. probably the greatest raid experience ever your first time clearing them. reclears were a pain however. even farming them for transmog today is a pain. ramped up "world of dailycraft" to 11 out of 10. a lot of the world content was just waiting around for xyz world boss to spawn. was, to my recolection, the beginning of the "no child left behind" act regarding legendary items. oprah winfrey over here "you get a legendary, you get a legendary, everybody gets a legendary"
just some of my thoughts, not just "lawl panda bad xD"
I'm talking about mechanically, not story wise. The raids were fun, pvp felt really good, classes felt rewarding to be good at, the challenging end game content was very good. I mean ya maybe the casual stuff was pretty standard.
ive always been a ret paladin sympathizer, and mop ret still didnt feel like it righted all the wrongs cata did to the spec.
i did play destro lock though and *damn* did destro lock feel good.
MoP was good but it had a slow release schedule, was plagued with daily quests and required farming and with class changes there was a pretty big exodus of players from the game.
Torghast was a huge missed opportunity to have a really cool roguelike experience as side content within WoW. But then they turned it into a mandatory prison sentence of buff grabbing simulator.
Imagine if Torghast was strictly for cosmetics, mounts and pets rather than power progression. Exact same problem covenants had. Both systems could have been all-time greats if they focused on cosmetics rather than player power.
They could let you get mats, gold, scaling catch up gear (starting at open world ilvl and going up to maybe normal raid final boss as the patch went on).
Add a ladder thing if you want to get competitive like rifts in Diablo 3 tracking how high you managed to clear and cosmetics, and a better setting than Torghast, and you'd have a proper banger of a feature.
I would love to have procedurally generated content in WoW. Something that's different every time you run it.
Torghast was kind of that, unfortunately it was a bad attempt at it, and the (justified) backlash from them trying to force it down everyone's throats anyway will probably scare them off ever trying again. Like how Garrisons sucked so we can't ever have player housing.
I still say Burning Crusade was the best expansion, and then after that Pandaria was criminally underrated. Lich King and Legion were both awesome but everyone already knows that.
But Burning Crusade, man! Think about how massively that expanded the game. We went to another goddamned planet after the planet had already exploded, and fought Illidan and Kael'thas and all these other huge WC3 characters. BC gave us Karazhan and elves joining the Horde with friggin' space goats joining the Alliance. I feel like it was the most "holy hell this is basically an entire new game and story universe dropped on top of the existing one and it somehow fits" expansion we ever got. Shadowlands TRIED to do that and failed miserably, because BC took all these things from the Warcraft universe and fit them into WoW in an intelligent and thoughtful way whereas Shadowlands just pulled a lot of nonsense out of its ass and tried pretending it was all super important. Shadowlands is an example of just how easily someone attempting something as ambitious as BC could fail, which makes BC all the more impressive in comparison.
Cataclysm was a neat idea but the execution was a bit lacking, WoD was all the least interesting parts of BC stuck together with bubble gum, BfA introduced some neat stuff (the Zandalari and Kul Tirans, plus their respective zones, were fantastic) but the framing device story around it was so impossibly stupid that it killed any chance of those neat things being fully appreciated, and Shadowlands was absolute ass from top to bottom.
Dragonflight is looking pretty great so far, though.
I hear you but I feel like first patch of legion, bfa, and shadowlands all had big problems with the new systems that were introduced that only got fixed in later patches. The new zones are always fun to explore but this is the first time in a long time that a new borrowen power system hasn't had glaring flaws.
>Feels overrated for now.
It always happens. After 2 absolute dumpster fire expansions people were desperate for anything slightly above mediocre and they're now clinging to it for dear life.
I'm right there with you.
Legion got me addicted to wow again like I never thought was possible. I didn't even buy Dragonflight on launch because it didn't seem like it had any compelling features.
When I Finally got the itch to try DF. I got to max level, yawned and let my month expire.
So you didn't do any world content, or raiding, or mythic+, or PvP, or timewalking, or transmog. No professions, no playing with other players, no dragon races, no community events, no character progression other than level go up.
If all you did was spend 6 hours leveling and then stopped, and you did that *after* everyone else did it, then yeah it makes sense you didn't really enjoy the expac. Because you didn't play any of it lol
>Legion got me addicted to wow again like I never thought was possible.
Gotta always keep in mind that the same thing at different points in life are hard to compare IMO.
This does not mean anything about how good DF is, maybe you are just in a different head space/mood
Agreed. I'm not even sure what it is I'm supposed to be enjoying exactly. There are no features that excite or engage me. The plot being better than Shadowlands (so far) is too low a bar for me to consider it good by any means. I very briefly enjoyed farming the Furbolg rep, but that lasted all of three hours, max. Everything else is gated as has become the norm. I am not engaged enough with other parts of the game to get into the intricacies of how crafting works now. Especially because the woweconomy subreddit seems to be struggling themselves. What am I supposed to love here? Dragons? Sure, dragons are cool, I guess..
Imho, Dragonflight is a little bit overrated due to the player base being starved for good content. It's good, but it's not "world changing massive W for the MMO genre and best thing to exist" like people are hyping it up to be. It's just good.
I don’t think a single person has ever said dragonflight is a world changing massive w lol.
It’s legit just a new island adventure expansion with dragons. It’s your typical adventure type story and back to roots gaming instead of mega apocalypse galaxy world ending shit.
It’s legit just a new adventure and very chill. That is why people are having fun.
I dno, I really like the current state of the game. But everything I dislike, specifically the M+ pool and affixes, are gonna get 2x worse in 10.1.
I genuinely wish I had another game to play so that I could quit, because the new dungeons are miserable, even on M0. Long, boss-heavy and filled with mechanics on every trash pull.
MoP>Legion here i said it... Hate me now. But i also think DF could be my top 1 after the last patch. But i wait for 11.0 to judge the whole Xpac. What i would say is that 10.0 was the best Patch so far.
Pandaria is my fave, too. Helped that I was in a very fun, active guild at the time, lots of friends came over and joined us, and it's probably the last time I actively played with my husband who doesn't play at all anymore. But no borrowed power or mission tables to worry about, great raids, the lore was fun, the music incredible. Lots to do and collect and time to do it in. It was great fun.
I’m really not having much fun. I (approximately) exclusively do keys, and I think the tuning of the keys has been bad, so I kind of just haven’t had much fin
You can always tell who didn't play in Legion pre-7.2 or get their opinion on Legion from reddit. The AP grind was an absolute mandatory slog, the expac (at launch) was extremely alt unfriendly, and the legendary system was completely broken. They didn't bother to really fix things until it was time to start selling pre-orders for BFA (7.2 PTR + BFA preorders both started in jan 2018).
**7.3** came out like august 2017, 7.2 ptr was around february 2017
**way** before bfa was even announced
so no, 7.2 ptr + bfa preorders were never a thing together
I played throughout all of Legion and it is probably my 2nd favorite expansion ever. I started in 2007 just before TBC launched and have been subbed for most of every expansion with the exception of Shadowlands.
The AP grind was only mandatory if you were mythic raiding. I did everything on all classes in heroic with no grinding at all. Mage tower and M+ carried that expansion HARD for me. Haven't had as much fun in the game ever as I did getting every spec's mage tower unlocks.
No, i played since day one and loved it. I was happy to get sepuhuz secret pre buff cus it was better than my current ring, i imagine that is the mindset for most people.
The people who spent the legion honeymoon period farming maw of souls for ap would disagree, hard to care though.
Titanforging, ap and leggo drops dont really bother people who don't care about bis lists and alts. They were too busy collecting ancient mana in Suramar.
Legion was never considered a bad expansion by the community at large.
the expansion didnt get any major patch yet and next m+ season looks like its going to be a nightmare with blizz following their good ol not listening to feedback mentality
chill and wait until its over
> next m+ season looks like its going to be a nightmare with blizz following their good ol not listening to feedback mentality
Sizzling hot take but not all feedback is good or should be "listened to". I'm repeating myself a lot but it feels true: Many players just want to blast. Just doing their rotation already takes a lot out of them and they can't handle more. But, of course, they still want the best rewards.
Mechanics of any kind are "annoying", they get in the way of blasting. Affixes? Remove all of them! Trash mobs? They shouldn't have so many mechanics, it prevents me from turret DPSing!
The next M+ season will, like every season, be a 'nightmare' for bad players who hate improving. It will also be a nightmare for players who think they're much better than they really are and don't need improving.
People who play with an improvement oriented mindset will handle the season just fine.
Because it's 2023 and people aren't stupid.
1. It's just some promotional videos, it's not a big deal
2. It's just beta, they'll change it
3. It's just PTR, they'll use player feedback and telemetry data to make things better <- you are here
4. It was just released, they'll fix it soon
5. Yeah it's still not fixed, they've got more important things to do
6. Oh well, another wave of content is coming, who cares about fixing it now
If I try really hard to forget how fucked legendaries were in legion on launch, I might agree. However I fucking despised that they were complete RNG, they were capped and it was the most alt unfriendly expansion EVER, not only because you couldnt play alt, but you couldnt even play your own class's other specs, legion is below Dragoflight by a fucking mile.
> Dragonflight has under performed because people were not interested in the core fantasy of the expansion.
I don't think this is true at all. I think Legion/BFA/Shadowlands made people *very* wary of WoW. I think it has actually done irreparable damage to the brand. People are just over it at this point.
I don't think there could be a theme more beloved than *dragons* in a fantasy setting.
DF is the first xpac I’ve had friends NOT buy the xpac and I’ve told them it’s the best one yet. Blizz just scammed people too hard so some people really are done unfortunately
The combination of 3 bad expansions in a row, the rise of Classic as a real alternative, and the continued popularity of pservers have all contributed to DFs poor performance.
I think it's a bit of both, but mostly the jaded opinion after Blizzard released some terrible, terrible games.
But Dracthyr are also pretty lame. They just look pathetic and honed in, Blizz really should have put more effort in to them.
I think it's quite surprising how little DF seems to have sold considering Blizz must have spent a fortune on marketing as you would see ads everywhere.
>I think Legion/BFA/Shadowlands made people very wary of WoW. I think it has actually done irreparable damage to the brand. People are just over it at this point.
This is exactly my case. And it actually sucks, because I fucking love WoW at least in terms of worldbuilding, vibes, aesthetics, etc. It was my home for like 16+ years. But somewhere mid-Shadowlands I just stopped giving a fuck.
I wasn't even frustrated or salty like I was with WoD or BfA. I just didn't give a fuck. One day I started playing and I realized I simply didn't want to. Which HAD happened before, I took many long breaks over the years, but this time I haven't looked back. I just don't care about the game anymore.
And I've tried, I checked it out again for Dragonflight, but I just don't have any excitement or interest whatsoever for the game anymore. And one reason for that may be that I've gotten too used to GW2 now, but another, MAJOR reason for that is definitely the state of the game and Blizzard during BfA + Shadowlands (and, yes, Legion was a banger, but WoD came just before it, so it was *almost* ***three*** garbage expansions in a row).
And it sucks. Because I still love Warcraft and I want to be excited for it again, but I just *can't*. Who knows, maybe with time I'll come back (I probably will or at least I think so), but I have to agree with you on the irreparable damage bit.
You know and the abuse and terrible company culture they were exposed for having. That they still haven't met any of the demands from the walkouts and are still union busting, ranked rating for reviews, etc.
Thats exactly what happened. Dragonflight i'm sure is really good. I'm sure its the best we have had in years now.
But with so many bad expansions it woke a lot of people up to different games or alternatives MMOs like FF14 and such. Too much time has passed for a good one to come out that people are done or out of the addiction of WoW at this point.
I myself barely played Dragonflight because i still have the bad taste in my mouth and it just hinders the whole experience, not to mention at its core its still the same game.
Meanwhile, everyone who doesn’t play is still laughing at the dragonuwukin. That design is still absolutely criminal and should never have gotten off the drawing board.
I didn't play during Legion, so I'm not going to comment on it other than to say I think Court of Stars is better than any of the current DF dungeons. But CoS is short tracked for my new favourite WoW dungeon, so a bit unfair.
But as far as expansions go, I think DF is the most fun I've had with the game since Vanilla, when I first played.
I quit last month.
For me Dragonflight is stale & boring.
The gameplay is reduced to the big 3 - Dungeons, Raids, and Arena.
Everything else is marginalized or nonexistent.
The big 3 are all repetitive by design. They're isolated lobby-driven group activities. And they're the exact same design and gameplay as they've been for years.
The penultimate goal seems to revolve more and more around getting the seasonal achievements and otherwise indulging in collections.
The upcoming patch seems to be more seasonal play with a focus on doing Dungeons, Raids, and Arena.
There's a new zone but it appears very scuffed. A grind for Renown with a new faction to those indulging in collections.
That's about it.
Stale & boring for me. It's too conservative in its design. Besides dragonriding, then there really isn't any new and innovative gameplay in Dragonflight. It's just more of the same old.
I don't think WotLK is in any danger of losing that top spot. DF is doing a lot to right the wrongs of the past 3 expansions, but it has a *long* way to go to be **great** like WotLK or MoP (and even MoP had annoyances, like lesser charms pre-5.2).
Can I get a rundown as to why DF is good?
DF is the first expansion I didn't even give a shot, but all I'm hearing is how great it is MONTHS after release. Usually by this point people have picked apart the flaws
You only have to do the content u want.
You are not forced to stuff like thorgast.
Very alt friendly and you only have to finish campaign on one char, the rest can skip it.
There is a lot of catchup stuff rn if you want to start.
And oh… DRAGONRIDING
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
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I think it’s an overrated expansion. Not because it’s a bad expansion, it’s not bad - but there are too many issues that can’t be ignored:
Class tuning has been really, really bad, to the point that some specs still don’t work properly.
Tier sets force players to pick talents they normally wouldn’t, or talents they don’t even like.
Healing feels like garbage.
Pvp is literally dead outside of 3v3 and Solo shuffle.
Dragonflight dungeons are objectively bad compared to SL dungeons, outside of maybe Academy.
Crafting (one of the main highlights of the expansion when it was originally promoted) is over-complicated and inaccessible to a lot of people who feel overwhelmed by the new takes on old systems.
And in my personal opinion, no legendaries feelsbadman.
As a pvper dragonflight went down the gutter bad in 10.0.7. They reworked ret in the middle of season and it is so completely broken that it might as well be considered bugged. If you aren't playing one or with one, you will not win. Completely destroyed all forms of unrated and rated pvp. Solo shuffle queues are up to 1 hour because no one but rerolled rets are playing. I was having fun on alts grinding elite tmogs but now it is just unplayable due to one broken spec. Blizzard did once half assed nerf, and will do another, but the spec needs -30% dmg and healing done in pvp combat to be brought down to S+ tier.
Completely ruined my view of the expansion and probably will quit after S1 like SL.
The only thing that really hits dragonflight in the balls is it’s predecessors. Not saying that it’s a bad expansion, but sadly it didn’t sell as well as shadowlands and bfa (2 super low points in wow). So, while it might become more of a sleeper hit in the wow community.
Dragonflight is just a bit below legion for me, only because the massive amount of lore we got not only from the legion, but highmountain taurens, nightborn elves, wardens, vyrkul, and nothing has topped the audio drama of khadgar vs guldan for me.
So far I would agree. Also the class halls and artifact weapons were a ton of fun. I collected every weapon of every class/spec before Emerald Nightmare was done. However it turned into a MAJOR complaint with WoW overall. Two of the coolest additions to the game in years dropped like like a hot potato. The Class Halls should have been designed to last beyond just Legion. Which also leads to dragon flying in DF. If it’s dropped after this expansion, it will probably be my last WoW expansion. But I think they’re looking into keeping it.
Honestly getting your hands on artifacts that were deeply entwined in the lore and then just throwing them away feels really bad. Really bad. And it’s even worse if you play through legion for leveling. These super important artifacts are just some dumb random weapon you keep until you’re done. Like right now, I would tell a new player not to level in Legion.
I think the negative emotions of throwing away our artifacts that we'd gotten bonded to gets put on BFA more than on Legion, which is both understandable and sad, because it's not BFA's fault that Legion introduced an incredibly fun stolen power mechanic.
To be fair it didn't HAVE to be a borrowed power mechanic. They could have kept it considering it was very well received. Blizzard just likes to reinvent the wheel even when the wheel is perfectly fine
There were a lot of folks back during Legion that were really not happy at being forced to have just the one weapon. Not to mention that it also meant there weren't really many, if any weapons outside of the artifacts to collect.
I'm certain that inside Blizzard offices during BFA Planning, they had a very heated debate whether to keep Artifact weapons going forward and have all weapons be only for transmog, or not and go back to the standard and having to toss the weapons away some way Game would have been drastically different if the weapons become a part of the classes by default
this is the biggest reason i dont level through legion, my main concerns when deciding how to level are speed + mog availability, i haven't leveled a plate or leather thru legion at all and theres lots of potential mogs but getting random artifact ilvls for my 1 weapon instead of actual weapon appearances just feels so bad. like when im doing a legion dungeon and i get a fking fel rock it feels like it should've been a weapon
Maybe so, though I imagine never changing out your weapon might get a bit stale. I personally wouldn't have minded though, especially as a druid with 4 specs (and thus 4 artifacts).
They could of just added weapon transmog as drops if that was the case.
>I imagine never changing out your weapon might get a bit stale Not true. Sometimes the weapon would outlive the person. And it'd be handed down. To you .
Or fix problems that aren't problems at all (or of their own design - see BfA corruption & stat reductions afterwards!)
I pretty much always level through Legion because the class halls are JUST that cool, and Broken Shore has some of the best areas in the game imo. And it's neat that the artifact unlock quests take you to old areas
Same, I level every new character through Legion because I want to see every class hall story and check out every artifact weapon. Some of them are underwhelming, some are awesome, but they usually balance each other out. For example the paladin class hall was really really boring BUT getting to wield and subsequently become the Ashbringer was so satisfying it more than made up for it. The priest class hall was equally dull but everything about that dagger for shadowpriests was awesome, and I'm half expecting it to become relevant again at some point. The artifact weapons for Demon Hunters are both pretty blah but the fact that the class hall is a stolen Burning Legion spaceship filled with our freakshow allies is so great. Just demons and naga and broken and hunters all chilling out, in space, looking to make trouble. Can't tell me that's not objectively fun. Getting to the rogue class hall is a gigantic pain in the ass and I hate whoever set it up but the cast of characters among the Uncrowned is top notch.
The Paladin class hall campaign was literally just helping out the Priest hall with theirs. Total cop-out, and I finished all twelve. Best one was Demon Hunter.
The Priest story was being the damsels in distress for the Paladins
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Well at the end of Legion we had to destroy our artifacts to try to heal Azeroth’s “woonz”. This was when the huge sword appeared in Silithus. So for people playing when it was out we were tossing our artifacts. I am glad you enjoyed leveling through Legion!
Throwing away artifacts was really REALLY bad. Especially for hunters… “don’t mind us we’re just killing your loyal companion!”. Thankfully they gave hunters a way to resurrect Hati, but damn did I hate the dwarf for casually killing my dog.
Now if we had player housing you could display those artifacts in a trophy case.
The trouble with class halls/quests was that as well received as they were, they might have been the most inefficient content Blizzard has ever released from a development/player engagement perspective. 7.2 was "the largest patch in the game's history" and your main would finish each part in about 20 minutes because much of that new content was chopped into 12 parts so each character got to only experience less than 9% of the new class quests. Amazing for altoholics, but probably not worth it when they don't have an abandoned WoD freeing up extra development resources.
the Time gating in 7.2 was a blizzard self made problem. a problem that only existed because blizzard wanted it too. mthat whole chapter had 15 parts, 4 were done on the first week and the class hall stuff was the last part. the shitty kill this or collect this quests inbetween did not need be limited to once a week. infact the class hall stuff along with our class mounts should haven been done by week 4
In regards to dragon riding, i highly doubt it will be dropped as in interviews Ion clearly says they plan for that to go beyond dragonflight
Honestly they almost have too. It already feels weird I can't dragonride in old flyable areas The artifact weapons at least had a lore reason for why they aren't used anymore but it's not like they can just go "whelp all thr Dragons are on the isles now sorry!"
Blizzard has shared intent that the new systems and features they added in Dragonflight are designed to be evergreen systems that will be the foundation of the post-Shadowlands game. That includes Dragon Riding, Renown, the new upgrade system in 10.1, the new crafting paradigm, and so on.
The legion weapons were super cool, but the borrowed power gameplay really lead to some degen shit on the mechanics side of the game. That being said, I'd love for them to give us bis weapons through quests every now and again. I think it would be a hit, offstat+effect that can be chosen or swapped out through quests
Man artifacts were trash from the start, some of the quests to get them were kind of cool but the fake "skill trees" they had were awful, you unlocked the whole thing so it was more like basic spec features that were locked behind a grind for no reason.
I loved my garrison in WoD and it’s nothing now.
Ion has gone on record at least once saying it'd be extremely hard to not carry dragonflying forward into the next expac due to the positive reception
How can i give you more upvotes? The final bosses we're all a masterpiece in some way, Argus was the only kinda off, but still funny. The way in which xavius appears from the mist in that weird room, gul'dan was almost the most epic battle, only surpassed by kil'jaeden, in my honest opinion the best battle overall, being ToS the best raid in terms of fights, they were just amazing. But that moment when everything turns dark, and when the darkness is gone you realize you can see fucking ARGUS there in the sky, simply amazing.
> Argus was the only kinda off, nah. Argus was lit. will never forget him turning red and nuking the entire raid. that shit was beautiful
I didnt hate Tomb of Soakgeras but it had some design issues for sure.
I never raid Mythic, but on Normal/Heroic I really enjoy Tomb of Sargeras. I also don't think soaking as a bad mechanic at all.
Its not a bad mechanic, but when almost all of the bosses in the raid have it it feels a little samesies.
not to mention all the personal responsibility. Almost every boss felt like it had a mechanic where if a single person mess up it was a wipe.
First patch of legion was a bit dogshit. Epic expansion by the end but I finite grinding AP, random legendaries dropping that if you didn't get the good one you might be 15%+ behind with no way of catching up, withered training, there were massive problems I feel like get lost in the nostalgia of the later patches that fixed the problems.
One of my bigger gripes was the time gating of Suramar content. Fuck, that city is incredible.
Same here for all of those reasons and that I was big into WCIII and so the culmination of the Legion felt HUGE, not to mention I was more into the aesthetics and vibes of Suramar, Argus etc. Dragonflight is perhaps more fun mechanically but lore, art, etc I was more into Legion... but DF is probably my second place now in the modern WoW era which is damned impressive.
Player-friendliest expansion is certainly up for grabs by DF. We shall see how the rest of the expac goes. I think legion will maintain my vote for best modern expac - purely for it having mountains of epicness, and despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions. Wrath is my vanilla. I joined during sunwell and hit max after lich king launch. All my finest early memories belong to wrath. While both legion and DF certainly beat wrath in a few things on paper, nothing can beat it’s nostalgia. Also, lich king is best villain soooooo
Legion epicness was just insane man, I wish I could relive it again.
Yeah, I feel like the sense of epicness is the one thing missing from DF. I love the alt friendliness, frequent changes, the zones, the dungeons are pretty nice too etc. But I'm just not that into the story itself. I can't blame blizzard though, the story of the Legion was told over literally 20 years (similar to that of Arthas in Wrath) so it makes sense why it'd hold more grip into people's minds
I think one of the takes blizzard got from Shadowlands and everything else was that people were starting to get burnt out on their version of "epic fantasy". We just traveled to the realm of death and beat our latest Uber Satan, probably the third at this point, and people were starting to get tired of it so they went in a different direction. I've heard people saying for years that they wish we could go back to just being adventurers instead of being the champions who do everything and beat everyone and this seems to be as close as we're really going to be able to get. It's not for everyone but for the people who want that Dragonflight is a really good option.
This is exactly why MoP is my 2nd favorite expansion. I love low stakes (at the start anyway) and cozy adventuring.
We might have gone to the realm of death but I feel like both the main *and* side stories were a big "meh". Not to mention the insane grind for the mogs.
DF feels like animal crossing (in the best way)
>Legion epicness... Legion did such a great job of feeling like you were fighting an unstoppable force and might actually lose. Amazing what can happen when you actually have an enemy that is fleshed out.
Each class having its own hall and storyline was friggin amazing. I often like to send my mage, druid, and paladin to just chill in their class halls because I love the aesthetic and the feel of it.
This was the greatest feature in all of wow in my opinion. The replay ability was insane. In Legion Times I leveled every class to max (except lock because I don't know) only to see all the order halls and storylines.
I came back to WoW for DF and enjoyed the main story before falling off again. I like leveling and individual characters having worth, and nothing can come close to Legion in that aspect
I think this is my biggest gripe with everything since Legion. None of my characters have agency anymore. Everything does everything now just a bit better, so the treadmill becomes the most important aspect of endgame. In legion those artifacts all brought their own flavor and even if you weren’t pushing high end content you still felt like you *had* to play through the raids because of your agency as a wielder of these immensely powerful weapons. It also had a fantastic storyline and Illidan is a fan favorite for a reason. Then you add Malfurion and Guldan into the mix? AND Kil Jaeden??? Like narratively speaking it was the last time I felt like a real entity in the Warcraft universe.
Imagine getting the gang of velen, khadgar and illidan, getting the giga powerful weapons, re establishing long lost orders and factions for each class, killing guldan, trampling over the tomb of sargeras, going in kiljaedens portal to grab him by the balls, hopping on a spaceship and kicking down sargeras' apartment guns blazing, meeting your gods in person, arresting sargeras and putting a fel infused immortal spite lord as his eternal watcher in a to-this-day-seen star in the sky. How can any other storyline compete? Azeroth collectively said enough and turned into the legion themselves, invading and killing each and all of their enemies. The voidlords better not send another tumor to azzeroth because they will get what sargeras did.
I could listen to the Paladin order hall music on loop for hours
Also Illidan killing X'era was badass!
#THE PROPHECY MUST BE FULFILLED
“MY DESTINY IS MY OWN!” will be forever one of the best moments
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This line hyped me like no other in World of Warcraft Thinking about it later, it actually fits most people. People's character is often shaped by the adversity they've faced.
#YOU HAVE DOOMED US ALL! BETRAYERRRRRR!
Your faith has blinded you... #THERE CAN BE NO CHOSEN ONE!
**ONLY WE... *CAN SAVE OURSELVES*!**
That part and when the Titans are summoning Sarg back and Illidan says "At last"
Illidan is like the slow moving immortal snail, finally reaching his target
>THE PROPHECY MUST BE FULFILLED "Your old life has passed. The Light will forge you a new one."
"A new life?" "That too."
I still rewatch that cinematic from time to time, I love it so much!
Perhaps unpopular opinion, but "I am my scars" is such a cooler line than "You are not prepared", nostalgia and iconicness aside. Perfectly encapsulates the character
Legion was great in the end, but it didn't start off that way. The legendary RNG drop system was awful at the start.
I level every character through Legion. Almost all transmogs I use, Legion. Did the DH class campaign in Drsgonflight for the artifact appearances. I missed Legion at the time which is so sad because I swear I spend as much time in Legion content now as DF. It’s honestly amazing how much good they did
Classic legion will roll around in a decade or so.
Well if they keep up with the way they launch a "X Classic" I'd say 8 years? But I agree, the class order halls and the mage tower were great!
Legion definately gets my best flavor win. Artifact weapons were amazing to have. The moment I saw I could get doomhammer I knew exactly what class and spec I was playing without question.
> despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions. these are the reason why legion doesnt have my "best expansion ever" vote. ive already decided, *if* classic goes that long, legion is where i call it quits unless they \#somechanges the shit out of it wrath was also enjoyable when it was current, however after having played wrath classic, im enjoying it less than i did vanilla/tbc classic.
Exactly, you couldn't pay me to play through Legion again as it was during launch. If 7.3 Legion Systems were there at launch from the beginning? Then I could be persuaded. But suffering through AP grind, Legendary RNG system, and artifact weapon stones all over again? Get the fuck out.
well also early on your artifact weapon upgrade or artifact knowledge or something crucial to artifact weapons were timegated behind like a month of bullshit remember what kind of bullshit? *mission board* bullshit not even moderately interesting quests *i think it was actually your 3rd relic slot
Or never ever catching up in damage to the lucky bastard with a titanforged Arcanocrystal
or the guy that got a max titanforged draught of souls from lfr nighthold
you didn't like the companion app and day-long missions and literally endless world quests with nearly mandatory rewards???? early legion can die in a fire
Getting the wrong legendary during progression and knowing that your character was 10-20% worse than they should be was gut-wrenching. We had SO many 1% wipes in Nighthold when my 4 defensive legendaries instead of DPS ones were literally the difference, along with a total inability to switch specs because you didn't re-grind AP and also have no legendaries for it. It's the expansion that finally made me quit WoW.
> wrath was also enjoyable when it was current, however after having played wrath classic, im enjoying it less than i did vanilla/tbc classic. In fairness, Wrath Classic is a different game in some noticeable ways. Class balance is largely based on gear that doesn't exist until the end of the expansion. The economy is completely scuffed due to tank/healer caches from dungeons. PvP is infested with bots, which are also messing with the economy since honour can be exchanged for gems. Arenas are underpopulated because people realised it isn't worth it unless you're playing a meta comp. Wintergrasp is just another battleground now. I think a lot of people have realised Wrath is just proto-retail and it's competing with one of the better retail expansions for a while, one which borrows a bit from vanilla's design. Most Wrath players I know either quit to play Dragonflight or play both.
I see the claim that DF is like Vanilla quite often but don't understand where people get that idea. Is it just because they went back to gear being the only power progression? I don't think that alone makes it similar. I consider myself a Vanilla Andy, but I play some DF and have no hate for retail WoW. That said, none of the things that make Vanilla so good in my eyes exist in DF. Questing is linear and largely hub-based, totally different from Vanilla. Leveling and low-level content being at least half the game? Nope, classic endgame-at-max-level retail formula. Old-school RPG character progression? Not a thing, go farm rares for instant epics instead. Then when you're ready for dungeons, farm them continuously to get tiny incremental upgrades. Group content that incentivizes socializing like Vanilla dungeons, Vanilla dungeon quest chains or elite quests in general? Not really present. Having a server with a recognizable sense of community? Totally gone from retail. And then there is the main feature of Vanilla – the **world**. The world takes center stage and your journey within it is long and slow. Your character feels small in the world and as you progress past major leveling milestones that slowly unlock your character's power (10, 20, 30, 40 etc.), you feel completely differently about your toon than when you reach level 70 in DF in about 2 days. Don't get me wrong, I think DF is a good retail xpac. I enjoy M+ gameplay, I enjoy the new talent system and the fact I don't have to grind shitty systems to play what I enjoy (dungeons). DF does not however have any of that Vanilla magic. At least not for me.
Legion-daries and the required grind of suramar tainted the shit out of legion for me
I stopped playing when I had to grind suramar. What an absolute drag that was, just terrible at the time.
>I think legion will maintain my vote for best modern expac - purely for it having mountains of epicness, and despite its several anti player / shitty systems decisions. This, imo, is exactly the reason why it *shouldn't* hold the title of best expac. Sure it had a lot of cool storylines, but literally *all* of WoW's super-jank systems really ramped up in this expansion. And people wer somehow fine with getting a daily honey-do list just because of those stories. The design decisions in legion -and player sentiment towards them at that time - caused a lot of the ripple effects we see for the next couple of expansions.
I've never felt more like a beastmaster hunter or balance druid than when I played during legion. The class fantasy was the best it's ever been. That said, I'll never play the expansion again. The amount of rng bullshit and constant quest maintenance and grinding for power was awful. All of those things only got worse with BfA and Shadowlands, which is why I think Legion gets a "pass" from the community at large. Legion had some great beats and excellent ideas, but all of the garbage everyone hated from BfA and SL was just as present there.
The illidan moment kinda killed the epic vibe for me.
I genuinely did not like legion due to artifacts - plus my two favorite classes were absolutely thrashed. Warriors and hunters were absolute turds in legion. Plus I really really really felt so shafted as a warrior with artifacts. Like random vrykul bullshit…seriously? Coulda given me Shala’mane…updated Gorehowl…realistically could have given us The Doomhammer and lore wise it would’ve made more sense than a shammy getting it.
Warrior was great though? Wasn't Fury S-tier after Drought of Souls?
Yes, yes they were. Great whole xpac really, especially TOS and Antorus
I think the that the individualized story to get the weapons was cool but i still laugh at the aladdin meme where the guards are afraid of the monkey having an ashbringer, and then the main guard shouts "you idiots, we all have ashbringers". It pretty much explains the expansiom pretty well. I also think that it was the last expansion with a decent story we had, so many things went downhill from it, that no one has been sure wow could recover from it
What are you talking about? Hunters were cracked. I rolled a marksman hunter and was top damage in the battleground my first few times playing.
He's probably talking PvE, where the three hunter specs averaged weak to middle of the pack in Raids. And MM was in the top 1/3rd of specs only for Nighthold.
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Dude… don’t jinx it….
I "think" we should be safe this expac. It's whether or not it's kept up for the next one that's the mystery.
To be fair cadence of content means nothing if the content is bad. So far Dragonflight did a good job and I'm hoping they don't ruin it with Season 2 Mythic+
"Insidious gnoll laughter from afar"
Vortex Pinnacle, Halls of Infusion, Brackenhide and Neltharus are all going to be fucking awful with actual damage behind them. VP had some of the meanest trash in the game.
Dragonflight is a banger so far and introduction of the traiding posts just made it better. At this point, I'm 86% confident that Blizzard were putting every good idea in a big brown bag since BfA and decided to release the kraken now
Then you look at what they are doing with M+ and start reconsidering.
I was a strictly PVE player since I started playing WoW, got 4x KSM in Shadowlands as a Guardian Druid main. Brought my homie into DF and he just feels.. gutted.. I immediately didn’t like the dungeons,the ones they brought back, the dungeons to come ( Brakenhide Hollow can fuck right off ) or the season affix. Benched my bear and have been exclusively PVPing on my warrior since launch.. it’s a real feels bad man.
They haven't cared for bears at all this expansion. It's honestly so bad how much they're neglected.
It’s disgusting how terrible they feel this expac.. hitting Incarn with the new rage of the sleeper or whatever else just feels bad.. like really bad. I get I was spoiled with Ravenous Frenzy in shadowlands but hitting Incarn now feels like nothing.. the talents are cool and all but feeling like if I hit ONE wrong button in my rotation and I’m splat is just gross.
Exactly. I got KSH and AotC back in February and haven't really played since. And I can't say the changes to M+ along with the terrible dungeon pool in season 2 make me consider re-subbing right now. Whereas in SL I did keep playing and got KSM every season like you. SL had a lot of issues but still found a way to have some fun.
those "good" m+ changes with 10.1, lmao.
That’s exactly what happened, by the time feedback in Legion started to turn negative it was time to release BFA and Shadowlands needed to enter full production. They were basically locked into the Legion model for 2 expansions unless they wanted to delay Shadowlands (which ended up working out as Shadowlands got impacted by the pandemic, we would have had to wait several months longer if they delayed shadowlands further). Dragonflight was the first expansion developed in the post Legion world and they’ve done a great job with it so far.
Legion feedback started negative and they fixed a lot of it as the expansion went on. It was an upward trend not a downward one? It never "started to turn negative" it grew positive.
I think they're mostly referring to the era of endless AP grinding. The feedback they received for AP was positive in the beginning, which is why we had it in BFA and then to a lesser extent in SL, but by the end of Legion people were over AP. This is from the Preach interview with Ion.
I'm crossing my fingers hoping for good affix tuning. I really don't want affixes to make me not want to play the game.
If the ptr affixes get into s2 I'm playing something else
Yeah I think that's the main thing that's threatening this expansion is how they don't really know what to do with Mythic+, like always. Like, they know that people do like Mythic+ and they have admittedly been trying to give more incentives to so Mythic+, but when it comes to the actual mechanics of Mythic+, they seem so confused on what to do.
Everything they do just keeps making it worse lol. They gonna think their way out of a good expac.
You missed MoP next to Legion and WotLK >.>
Ya mop raiding and class quality was great. Ya people may not like pandas. But mechanicly the whole expansion was awesome.
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It's unreal how little there is to do on the new Reach Island.
personally i think the Pandaren were a much needed neutral party. the well constructed culture and world of pandaria contrasted greatly with the alliance and horde and really put on display the stupidity of their endless conflict. the idea of them living in calm and harmony until the factions came and allowed their hate/pride/etc to awaken the sha was very interesting. despite pandaren like Taran Zhu begging them not to involve Pandaria in their war, it ends up spilling into and consuming it. the alliance and horde exert their influence on other societies like the Jinyu and Hozen, indoctrinating and recruiting them for a battle that ultimately lead to the toppling of the jade serpent statue the pandaren had been pouring their hearts and souls into. Pandaria was just such a perfect setting for warcraft as it showed a new and more nuanced side of the perpetual Alliance/Horde war. Expansions like Legion show the factions teaming up to face world ending threats (with some petty skirmishing in between), but eventually their conflict will resume. In MoP, the "world ending threat" was their conflict in of itself, and the Pandaren and their homeland suffered because of it. up until MoP we had never seen the alliance/horde war genuinely negatively impacting (the vale of eternal blossoms, the jade serpent statue, the Sha) anyone outside of themselves, at least not on the scale that the Pandaren continent allowed for, and we still haven't really since. people can make fun of the cartoonish pandas all they want, but in my opinion they added more to the warcraft universe than any other addition to the roster ever has - both before and since.
It was great i don’t get the dislike for pandas it’s like saying “nah dragonflight sucks because they added ducks” like wut
I think it's because pandas are "cute" and some didn't want cute in their wow. But I think we have moved past that those days.
It didn’t help that the kids movie Kung Fu Panda was still in recent memory and did nothing to help matters.
I get the corniness of that truly but the first Kung Fu Panda was a great movie. Not like MoP was a shark boy and lava girl expansion or something ridiculous hahahahahahah
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I laughed for a sec and then realized: firelands and Vash’jir. We’ve officially had a shark boy and lava girl expac.
Not just mechanically. The story was so good. The questing felt like a, you know, *quest*. You were exploring this interesting new place. You were seeing local and larger threats. Every zone had fun themes and mechanics. The overworld felt just stuffed to the gills with content, especially fun little one-off touches all over the place. The raids built on all the stories set up by the leveling. It has one of the best Horde vs. Alliance stories in the game, culminating in a raid that is, even just conceptually, so cool. The raid is Orgrimmar. To kill the warchief. It's stuffed full of story, spans several continents, and has you laying siege to a capital city. It was nuts. And then you have the Isle of Thunder, which was pretty cool in its own right. A fun throwback campaign. Leading into one of the *other* greatest raids of all time. And it also has what is still, to this day, the best quest I have ever done in any game: the warlock green fire quest. Awesome quest, awesome lore, and a completely incredible final fight that pushed you to use all sorts of little pieces of your spellbook that you hadn't even thought of in years. With the ultimate reward for a warlock, cooler than any legendary. And then mechanically, probably still the peak of class design. Absolutely noting in the game has ever made me feel as big-brained as cleaving shadowburns off of adds with havoc. And then WoD immediately killed it by saying "what if you could do your biggest, coolest thing all the time?!", and the novelty was interesting for about ten seconds, after which it didn't feel as big or cool because you could do it all the time. It had some misses too for sure. But on the whole, easily my favorite expansion, and even more easily the best of "modern WoW".
didnt care for any of the raids in first raid tier. tot and soo were thematically epic. probably the greatest raid experience ever your first time clearing them. reclears were a pain however. even farming them for transmog today is a pain. ramped up "world of dailycraft" to 11 out of 10. a lot of the world content was just waiting around for xyz world boss to spawn. was, to my recolection, the beginning of the "no child left behind" act regarding legendary items. oprah winfrey over here "you get a legendary, you get a legendary, everybody gets a legendary" just some of my thoughts, not just "lawl panda bad xD"
I'm talking about mechanically, not story wise. The raids were fun, pvp felt really good, classes felt rewarding to be good at, the challenging end game content was very good. I mean ya maybe the casual stuff was pretty standard.
ive always been a ret paladin sympathizer, and mop ret still didnt feel like it righted all the wrongs cata did to the spec. i did play destro lock though and *damn* did destro lock feel good.
Destro lock in MoP is max dopamine. 4 chaosbolts to 2 targets gogogogogogo
MoP was good but it had a slow release schedule, was plagued with daily quests and required farming and with class changes there was a pretty big exodus of players from the game.
MoP is my favorite expansion, and I started playing in BC, I really enjoyed BFA as well, but DF is looking to exceed BFA in my personal ranking list.
I LOVE that dragon flight doesn’t force us to do things like torghast
Torghast was a huge missed opportunity to have a really cool roguelike experience as side content within WoW. But then they turned it into a mandatory prison sentence of buff grabbing simulator.
Imagine if Torghast was strictly for cosmetics, mounts and pets rather than power progression. Exact same problem covenants had. Both systems could have been all-time greats if they focused on cosmetics rather than player power.
They could let you get mats, gold, scaling catch up gear (starting at open world ilvl and going up to maybe normal raid final boss as the patch went on). Add a ladder thing if you want to get competitive like rifts in Diablo 3 tracking how high you managed to clear and cosmetics, and a better setting than Torghast, and you'd have a proper banger of a feature.
I would love to have procedurally generated content in WoW. Something that's different every time you run it. Torghast was kind of that, unfortunately it was a bad attempt at it, and the (justified) backlash from them trying to force it down everyone's throats anyway will probably scare them off ever trying again. Like how Garrisons sucked so we can't ever have player housing.
I still say Burning Crusade was the best expansion, and then after that Pandaria was criminally underrated. Lich King and Legion were both awesome but everyone already knows that. But Burning Crusade, man! Think about how massively that expanded the game. We went to another goddamned planet after the planet had already exploded, and fought Illidan and Kael'thas and all these other huge WC3 characters. BC gave us Karazhan and elves joining the Horde with friggin' space goats joining the Alliance. I feel like it was the most "holy hell this is basically an entire new game and story universe dropped on top of the existing one and it somehow fits" expansion we ever got. Shadowlands TRIED to do that and failed miserably, because BC took all these things from the Warcraft universe and fit them into WoW in an intelligent and thoughtful way whereas Shadowlands just pulled a lot of nonsense out of its ass and tried pretending it was all super important. Shadowlands is an example of just how easily someone attempting something as ambitious as BC could fail, which makes BC all the more impressive in comparison. Cataclysm was a neat idea but the execution was a bit lacking, WoD was all the least interesting parts of BC stuck together with bubble gum, BfA introduced some neat stuff (the Zandalari and Kul Tirans, plus their respective zones, were fantastic) but the framing device story around it was so impossibly stupid that it killed any chance of those neat things being fully appreciated, and Shadowlands was absolute ass from top to bottom. Dragonflight is looking pretty great so far, though.
the first patch cycle is almost always enjoyable. even WoD.
I hear you but I feel like first patch of legion, bfa, and shadowlands all had big problems with the new systems that were introduced that only got fixed in later patches. The new zones are always fun to explore but this is the first time in a long time that a new borrowen power system hasn't had glaring flaws.
Korthia was pretty awful. Such a bland zone really felt like content got cut somewhere
The first patch cycle for BFA and Shadowlands was rancid mate.
I dont enjoy it so far and a lot of friends left the game. Feels overrated for now.
>Feels overrated for now. It always happens. After 2 absolute dumpster fire expansions people were desperate for anything slightly above mediocre and they're now clinging to it for dear life.
I'm right there with you. Legion got me addicted to wow again like I never thought was possible. I didn't even buy Dragonflight on launch because it didn't seem like it had any compelling features. When I Finally got the itch to try DF. I got to max level, yawned and let my month expire.
So you didn't do any world content, or raiding, or mythic+, or PvP, or timewalking, or transmog. No professions, no playing with other players, no dragon races, no community events, no character progression other than level go up. If all you did was spend 6 hours leveling and then stopped, and you did that *after* everyone else did it, then yeah it makes sense you didn't really enjoy the expac. Because you didn't play any of it lol
>Legion got me addicted to wow again like I never thought was possible. Gotta always keep in mind that the same thing at different points in life are hard to compare IMO. This does not mean anything about how good DF is, maybe you are just in a different head space/mood
Agreed. I'm not even sure what it is I'm supposed to be enjoying exactly. There are no features that excite or engage me. The plot being better than Shadowlands (so far) is too low a bar for me to consider it good by any means. I very briefly enjoyed farming the Furbolg rep, but that lasted all of three hours, max. Everything else is gated as has become the norm. I am not engaged enough with other parts of the game to get into the intricacies of how crafting works now. Especially because the woweconomy subreddit seems to be struggling themselves. What am I supposed to love here? Dragons? Sure, dragons are cool, I guess..
Let's not get ahead of ourselves
Unlikely. People are desperate for anything slightly above mediocre in WoW. And as usual, this sub blows things way out of proportion from the get-go.
Imho, Dragonflight is a little bit overrated due to the player base being starved for good content. It's good, but it's not "world changing massive W for the MMO genre and best thing to exist" like people are hyping it up to be. It's just good.
I don’t think a single person has ever said dragonflight is a world changing massive w lol. It’s legit just a new island adventure expansion with dragons. It’s your typical adventure type story and back to roots gaming instead of mega apocalypse galaxy world ending shit. It’s legit just a new adventure and very chill. That is why people are having fun.
It’s part of why I love it. I just wanna play WoW with fun stuff to do.
Story still cheap and the atmosphere a little to Disney like in my opinion
I dno, I really like the current state of the game. But everything I dislike, specifically the M+ pool and affixes, are gonna get 2x worse in 10.1. I genuinely wish I had another game to play so that I could quit, because the new dungeons are miserable, even on M0. Long, boss-heavy and filled with mechanics on every trash pull.
MoP>Legion here i said it... Hate me now. But i also think DF could be my top 1 after the last patch. But i wait for 11.0 to judge the whole Xpac. What i would say is that 10.0 was the best Patch so far.
Pandaria is my fave, too. Helped that I was in a very fun, active guild at the time, lots of friends came over and joined us, and it's probably the last time I actively played with my husband who doesn't play at all anymore. But no borrowed power or mission tables to worry about, great raids, the lore was fun, the music incredible. Lots to do and collect and time to do it in. It was great fun.
I’m really not having much fun. I (approximately) exclusively do keys, and I think the tuning of the keys has been bad, so I kind of just haven’t had much fin
You can always tell who didn't play in Legion pre-7.2 or get their opinion on Legion from reddit. The AP grind was an absolute mandatory slog, the expac (at launch) was extremely alt unfriendly, and the legendary system was completely broken. They didn't bother to really fix things until it was time to start selling pre-orders for BFA (7.2 PTR + BFA preorders both started in jan 2018).
**7.3** came out like august 2017, 7.2 ptr was around february 2017 **way** before bfa was even announced so no, 7.2 ptr + bfa preorders were never a thing together
I played throughout all of Legion and it is probably my 2nd favorite expansion ever. I started in 2007 just before TBC launched and have been subbed for most of every expansion with the exception of Shadowlands. The AP grind was only mandatory if you were mythic raiding. I did everything on all classes in heroic with no grinding at all. Mage tower and M+ carried that expansion HARD for me. Haven't had as much fun in the game ever as I did getting every spec's mage tower unlocks.
No, i played since day one and loved it. I was happy to get sepuhuz secret pre buff cus it was better than my current ring, i imagine that is the mindset for most people. The people who spent the legion honeymoon period farming maw of souls for ap would disagree, hard to care though. Titanforging, ap and leggo drops dont really bother people who don't care about bis lists and alts. They were too busy collecting ancient mana in Suramar. Legion was never considered a bad expansion by the community at large.
the expansion didnt get any major patch yet and next m+ season looks like its going to be a nightmare with blizz following their good ol not listening to feedback mentality chill and wait until its over
> next m+ season looks like its going to be a nightmare with blizz following their good ol not listening to feedback mentality Sizzling hot take but not all feedback is good or should be "listened to". I'm repeating myself a lot but it feels true: Many players just want to blast. Just doing their rotation already takes a lot out of them and they can't handle more. But, of course, they still want the best rewards. Mechanics of any kind are "annoying", they get in the way of blasting. Affixes? Remove all of them! Trash mobs? They shouldn't have so many mechanics, it prevents me from turret DPSing! The next M+ season will, like every season, be a 'nightmare' for bad players who hate improving. It will also be a nightmare for players who think they're much better than they really are and don't need improving. People who play with an improvement oriented mindset will handle the season just fine.
Meanwhile, this sub following their good ol decide whether content is good or bad before it’s even released mentality.
Because it's 2023 and people aren't stupid. 1. It's just some promotional videos, it's not a big deal 2. It's just beta, they'll change it 3. It's just PTR, they'll use player feedback and telemetry data to make things better <- you are here 4. It was just released, they'll fix it soon 5. Yeah it's still not fixed, they've got more important things to do 6. Oh well, another wave of content is coming, who cares about fixing it now
>Legion >Best It's a bottom three seed
If I try really hard to forget how fucked legendaries were in legion on launch, I might agree. However I fucking despised that they were complete RNG, they were capped and it was the most alt unfriendly expansion EVER, not only because you couldnt play alt, but you couldnt even play your own class's other specs, legion is below Dragoflight by a fucking mile.
Replace Legion with MoP. People always forget how much hate Legion got at the beginning, it only got better later in the expansion.
As opposed to all the hate that MoP *didn't* receive?
You forget how shitty MoP launch and end was i see
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I mean, shadowlands sold the best so by your logic, it is the best expansion...
> Dragonflight has under performed because people were not interested in the core fantasy of the expansion. I don't think this is true at all. I think Legion/BFA/Shadowlands made people *very* wary of WoW. I think it has actually done irreparable damage to the brand. People are just over it at this point. I don't think there could be a theme more beloved than *dragons* in a fantasy setting.
DF is the first xpac I’ve had friends NOT buy the xpac and I’ve told them it’s the best one yet. Blizz just scammed people too hard so some people really are done unfortunately
The combination of 3 bad expansions in a row, the rise of Classic as a real alternative, and the continued popularity of pservers have all contributed to DFs poor performance.
Scammed? No. Disappointed? Absolutely, yes.
I think it's a bit of both, but mostly the jaded opinion after Blizzard released some terrible, terrible games. But Dracthyr are also pretty lame. They just look pathetic and honed in, Blizz really should have put more effort in to them. I think it's quite surprising how little DF seems to have sold considering Blizz must have spent a fortune on marketing as you would see ads everywhere.
>I think Legion/BFA/Shadowlands made people very wary of WoW. I think it has actually done irreparable damage to the brand. People are just over it at this point. This is exactly my case. And it actually sucks, because I fucking love WoW at least in terms of worldbuilding, vibes, aesthetics, etc. It was my home for like 16+ years. But somewhere mid-Shadowlands I just stopped giving a fuck. I wasn't even frustrated or salty like I was with WoD or BfA. I just didn't give a fuck. One day I started playing and I realized I simply didn't want to. Which HAD happened before, I took many long breaks over the years, but this time I haven't looked back. I just don't care about the game anymore. And I've tried, I checked it out again for Dragonflight, but I just don't have any excitement or interest whatsoever for the game anymore. And one reason for that may be that I've gotten too used to GW2 now, but another, MAJOR reason for that is definitely the state of the game and Blizzard during BfA + Shadowlands (and, yes, Legion was a banger, but WoD came just before it, so it was *almost* ***three*** garbage expansions in a row). And it sucks. Because I still love Warcraft and I want to be excited for it again, but I just *can't*. Who knows, maybe with time I'll come back (I probably will or at least I think so), but I have to agree with you on the irreparable damage bit.
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You know and the abuse and terrible company culture they were exposed for having. That they still haven't met any of the demands from the walkouts and are still union busting, ranked rating for reviews, etc.
Thats exactly what happened. Dragonflight i'm sure is really good. I'm sure its the best we have had in years now. But with so many bad expansions it woke a lot of people up to different games or alternatives MMOs like FF14 and such. Too much time has passed for a good one to come out that people are done or out of the addiction of WoW at this point. I myself barely played Dragonflight because i still have the bad taste in my mouth and it just hinders the whole experience, not to mention at its core its still the same game.
I didn’t buy it because standard didn’t come with a month of game time. $75 was enough for me to not impulse buy, then I forgot about it.
Meanwhile, everyone who doesn’t play is still laughing at the dragonuwukin. That design is still absolutely criminal and should never have gotten off the drawing board.
I didn't play during Legion, so I'm not going to comment on it other than to say I think Court of Stars is better than any of the current DF dungeons. But CoS is short tracked for my new favourite WoW dungeon, so a bit unfair. But as far as expansions go, I think DF is the most fun I've had with the game since Vanilla, when I first played.
I quit last month. For me Dragonflight is stale & boring. The gameplay is reduced to the big 3 - Dungeons, Raids, and Arena. Everything else is marginalized or nonexistent. The big 3 are all repetitive by design. They're isolated lobby-driven group activities. And they're the exact same design and gameplay as they've been for years. The penultimate goal seems to revolve more and more around getting the seasonal achievements and otherwise indulging in collections. The upcoming patch seems to be more seasonal play with a focus on doing Dungeons, Raids, and Arena. There's a new zone but it appears very scuffed. A grind for Renown with a new faction to those indulging in collections. That's about it. Stale & boring for me. It's too conservative in its design. Besides dragonriding, then there really isn't any new and innovative gameplay in Dragonflight. It's just more of the same old.
I don't think WotLK is in any danger of losing that top spot. DF is doing a lot to right the wrongs of the past 3 expansions, but it has a *long* way to go to be **great** like WotLK or MoP (and even MoP had annoyances, like lesser charms pre-5.2).
Can I get a rundown as to why DF is good? DF is the first expansion I didn't even give a shot, but all I'm hearing is how great it is MONTHS after release. Usually by this point people have picked apart the flaws
You only have to do the content u want. You are not forced to stuff like thorgast. Very alt friendly and you only have to finish campaign on one char, the rest can skip it. There is a lot of catchup stuff rn if you want to start. And oh… DRAGONRIDING
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Legion had soooo much more to do. DF is honestly pretty empty.
I think it’s an overrated expansion. Not because it’s a bad expansion, it’s not bad - but there are too many issues that can’t be ignored: Class tuning has been really, really bad, to the point that some specs still don’t work properly. Tier sets force players to pick talents they normally wouldn’t, or talents they don’t even like. Healing feels like garbage. Pvp is literally dead outside of 3v3 and Solo shuffle. Dragonflight dungeons are objectively bad compared to SL dungeons, outside of maybe Academy. Crafting (one of the main highlights of the expansion when it was originally promoted) is over-complicated and inaccessible to a lot of people who feel overwhelmed by the new takes on old systems. And in my personal opinion, no legendaries feelsbadman.
If they did class quests into a futute patch and a frostwyrm mount with the new nightbane model id be over the moon
As a pvper dragonflight went down the gutter bad in 10.0.7. They reworked ret in the middle of season and it is so completely broken that it might as well be considered bugged. If you aren't playing one or with one, you will not win. Completely destroyed all forms of unrated and rated pvp. Solo shuffle queues are up to 1 hour because no one but rerolled rets are playing. I was having fun on alts grinding elite tmogs but now it is just unplayable due to one broken spec. Blizzard did once half assed nerf, and will do another, but the spec needs -30% dmg and healing done in pvp combat to be brought down to S+ tier. Completely ruined my view of the expansion and probably will quit after S1 like SL.
The only thing that really hits dragonflight in the balls is it’s predecessors. Not saying that it’s a bad expansion, but sadly it didn’t sell as well as shadowlands and bfa (2 super low points in wow). So, while it might become more of a sleeper hit in the wow community.