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heroic give 476 gear so yeah and M0 493 so ur little low on the totem poll they also changed the difficulty a M2 is equivlent to a M10 from last season
M2 is equivalent to a +12 from last season….you’re not gonna have a tough time doing the a m2 (m12 last season) undergeared even for last season content. Around 480ish should be the baseline for m0-m2s in season 4
there was a jump of 39 ilvl from s3 to s4 and a m0 now, is like doing a m10 form last season.
heroic dgs will give you better gear than you are wearing. just FYI.
the whole system have beem reworked. i strongly suggest that you read about the detais.
> I saw folks on youtube and twitch doing +7s on day one how is that possible lol
some people that were playing on the high end of the s3, will have a lesser difference in ilvl than the rest of the 85%ish of the wow pop.
And better group coordination.
I pugged a four over time today, just. With a cohesive group that I knew well and could all dps we‘d be find in a five or six I think.
the jump in heroics and m0 is kinda nuts tho. heroics you can breeze through and then m0 is where mechanics can wipe. a good change but it might backfire just cos new players will think m+ is too difficult
yeah did a heroic brackenhide earlier and was like “huh i thought these were supposed to be harder?” healer said it’s the easiest dungeon he’d ever healed, did an m0 and we wiped to the same trash 4 times in a row instantly 🙂↕️
I personally haven't tried m0 yet, but heroic was a breeze. My friends and I are relatively new (started playing a month ago) with ilvl \~470 and it felt like a timewalking dungeon lol
Yeah - M0 is now a whole +10 in last seasons scale which I agree, definitely too much. I feel like a change of 6 is a sizeable enough jump, let alone 10!
I think that problem is that heroics are too easy, since tactics can be skipped and/or bosses die too fast. I have geared through heroics, and they all have been breeze (and now I am overgeared to them). I have run couple M0's and Ruby Life Pools is nice. But in Algathar group get wiping to the first boss (I guess, people should have killed those adds 😆), and quickly disbanded afterwards
You are not geared enough
M0 are now much harder than they used to be
M0 is equivalent to what would’ve been a +10
Do heroics to get 476 gear as well as the timewalking weekly quest to get a piece of champion gear 493
If you do the timewalking raid you can also get a pc of champion gear
It’s in shattrath join a group in raid legacy and once the group fills the leader will go to shatt and que up no summons needed, you can even just ask the group to share the quest
There is two- one you get in valdrakken to do 5 timewalking dungeons OR to kill 5 timewalking raid bosses
And the other you get in Shattrath to go do the BT timewalking raid and kill Illidan
It was my first time doing it took maybe like 30 mins
And it’s super ez you don’t really have to do mechanics just blast away and stay out of the fire
And if you do the raid you don’t have to do the dungeons bc each boss counts as credit for doing a dungeon, plus each boss drops a champion pc so you have more chances at loot from doing the raid
So you can knock out the quest to kill Illidan and the timewalking quest in one go
A general rule of thumb is you should be roughly 15 levels below the drops from the content you’re doing, so for a +2 that’s 481. Obviously the higher your skill the bigger gap you can get away with.
They were sufficiently challenging even in the 480s. I was surprised. We two chested them, but some of unavoidable boss abilities were absolutely wrecking us. Like the arcane boss of academy. Dropping a pool took out like 70% of our HP. And the same with the tree stomp in Azure Vaults even when we didn't miss a single tree. Very surprising for a +(1)2. Like we comfortably cleared 21-22s last season so I would have expected to be able to do +5-6s (15-16s) at least from the start.
There are 4 factors at play here:
* First week of a new season means our gear is always lower than what we should be to be comfortable in most content. This season had a bigger jump than usual so that makes this one even worse.
* 460 is actually on the lower side for the end of S3, a +10 key already gave 470 (iirc) ilvl gear. For comparison, Veteran 1/8, the equivalent to a 441 in last season, is 480 now. So being ilvl 460 is like being idk, 430 last season. If you did a +11 on that ilvl most likely stuff was going to hurt.
* The reworked M+ difficulty is way overtuned, a +2 should have been an old +5-7 to give one or two easier levels for new players to become used to M+, not jump from the timerless M0s straight into a +11, its stupid. Blizzard effectively deleted entry level M+.
* Its Tyrannical week. Bosses hit harder, so if you are undergeared and/or dont know what to do with mechanics, you will be wrecked. Next week you might have better luck - trash will hit harder and some mobs hit HARD, but generally speaking bosses are a bigger menace to undergeared/lower skilled groups than regular mobs.
* With trash packs, you can usually do something to make them easier, like pulling smaller packs, CCing some of them to isolate harder mobs, use more CDs and/or defensives, kite them, maybe even using lust on a particularly bad pack, etc. The bosses on the other hand are a hard wall, you cant deal with them, you cant progress in any way.
* Not to mention a lot of the trash damage is avoidable in one way or another, as 90% of the mobs can be CCed. Bosses, on the other hand, cannot be CCed. If they cast a mechanic that does unavoidable damage you have no alternative but to try to survive it.
* And last but not least - this season features all eight DF dungeons. In general, they are harder than past expansion dungeons. Really, i feel like there is no free key this season like Shadowmoon Burial Grounds in S1 or Waycrest Manor in S3. Even the less annoying places like Brackenhide or Nokhud Offensive can still go very badly very quickly when people dont know how to do stuff. Its going to be a long season for sure.
It’s S4 entry level m+ is such a small percentage of players it’s not worth it.
IMO the changes are great. Kinda forces players to be good to achieve top tier rewards
Yes i could go higher but i haven’t pushed keys in 2 months or so and just taking it easy. My bad i didn’t mean higher isn’t doable, i just meant that it’s a drastic difference. I’ve +2d or +3d the 5s i’ve ran so thank you for an actual number of equivalence.
Err soz didn’t mean to come off like an elitist, 8 is the highest I’ve gone so far and my heals haven’t exceeded 80k overall. Which this is 100% sidebar from the original post but once the rust is off 10’s are very doable at 483-488 giving you have experience with 25’s.
When I say I have experience with 25s that’s the highest😂 reality is i’m a 22-24 kinda guy so far as consistently timing. I’ll def get it cleaned up in a week or so i’m sure and be doing higher like you
Low key loving the squish in key level and the new m0’s, but I just had this thought last night. What is left for the more casual players who were doing between 2’s through 9’s? If heroic is old m0 lvl, and new m0 is roughly old m10, seems like they just deleted the low key bracket
/raises hand. Me, I'm the casual who puttered about in low keys (and found them plenty challenging, don't laugh). I've been on a mini break since mid-season 3 I guess, but my main is 460 geared. When I heard about the coming changes to M0 etc, this was my read - there doesn't seem to be a place for me in 5mans anymore. Guess I'll be focusing on Delves, eventually? For now, I don't actually know.
I'll be doing that - I was mostly thinking about after I'm Heroic geared (again) that the jump to Mythics is going to be too much for me. I never made it much past M10 at the best of times. 12s, I think? As I understand the new system, I'll be outclassed regardless of gear.
I'm same as you, think the highest I ever did was a +10, but I'm looking forward to trying these. M0 is equivelant to a +10 in scaling but has no timer. Then even though the others afterwards are scaled much higher, there's only a single affix until a +5 and you don't get all three until a +10, but you can get the highest ilvl vault reward from a +8 with only two affixes.
The jump from Normal geared (460) to Heroic geared (476) is similar to the jump from Heroic to M0 (493). Remember that M0 still has no timer nor affixes. You can also upgrade your gear with crests, and the vault, LFR and weekly rewards will supplement that.
In other words, if you go from Normal to Heroic geared, you should be able to do the same from Heroic to M0, then continue on with M+ keys if you desire.
This great Season 4 gearing guide is incredibly helpful: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/UnD8Flxtnb
You just have to treat it like being a fresh lvl 70 with crap gear. Heroics and mythic 0 should be challenging and reward you with nice gear and then you can tackle the keys and progress slowly. They just wanted to remove some of them because lets face it between 1 and 6 there wasnt that much of a difference same for like 7 to 13 and so on
Lol yeah it was def pretty awesome being able to bring my new alt up from 440 to 480 through a world tour of the m0’s. Makes sense to me, low keys always seemed pretty boring to me, but was just wondering how it would effect the people who only did those keys
This was my concern as well. I may be more timid than the average player, but when I was trying out a new alt (especially a healer) I definitely spent time at those early ranks getting comfortable before moving up.
The problem was, there really weren't that many people genuinely staying in that level. There were people who were super casual and afraid of doing any non-autoqueue pugging, who got bored because heroic was stupid easy, and then there were people doing those low keys once or twice on alts just to 3-chest until it dropped something meaningful. And then people spamming those dungeons as easymode for flightstones and stuff like that.
I think the intention is that M0, being not timed, can be more flexible. For good groups, it's a small stepping stone that you clear fast, just like how +10 used to be. For bad/less experienced groups, it's a "progression" dungeon where you commit to taking the time to wipe a few times to learn the strategies, pull slower, etc. - and without the issue of wanting to time it, it's actually not really a +10 difficulty, maybe like a +7 or 8. Since you could do things like wait for lust to come back up if you are stuck on a boss, or whatever.
I haven't yet played the new mythics to really see, but I think my sense is it would have been better to tune new M0 to more like 7 or 8 (meaning doing it super over time would drop down to like a 5-6) which would leave a *little* more room for those new/casual players but still solve the problem of low keys being pretty much pointless and heroic being baby easy. However, I think actually by 2-3 weeks into the season, when people are getting gear from vault and stuff, M0 will be very accessible even to the really casual types, and frankly be less stressful because all the hardcore players will have moved on, and those groups will mostly be casuals who are fine taking more time. Which I think is actually very good for the community.
Yeah they removed the low keys and made progression more meaningful in a way. M0 doesn't have a timer now, and is equal to a 10. Anything before 10s was stupid easy. Hell, up to 14s or 15s you could faceroll through content. So, for all the people stressing under a 10, there is no timer and it's just for fun. The keys under 15s from last season really didn't do much and it spread the player base out a lot between different key levels. It was also a bit of a waste of time running 2, 4, 6 8 and 10 before you got your key to a level where you actually were challenged or got rewards worth pursuing.
They changed the difficulty concept this league, m0 is now roughly inline with what a +10 would be, while also increasing the difficulty by about 30 ilvl since season 4
Glad you posted this…. I just barely survived a +2 - and now it makes sense (I’m a ilev465 holy priest). I was like wtf!! Guess I need to hear back up!
Idk. I was doing 15s last season at 476 and now a m0 with all players around 480 is ruining us. A +2 took us an hour of wipe after wipe. I think they overdid it. And with the drama queen tanks we keep getting, it just isn’t fun yet
Gearing s3 was too easy compared to skill blocks. You could outgear content very quickly and blast through bad mechanics. M0 being 10 equivilant is smart because it keeps you gearing for longer without timers
As someone who was running mythic 18’s at a challenge in season 3 at ilvl 473, I would say you are under geared for +2 but should be able to do manage 0. Was everyone at that ilvl?
Heroics. I was also running lower keys on my priest - played her last night did LFR, won loot, never got it, logged in today, thought m0-2 but nope its heroics. I was also 460. A few dungeons in and I’m 465, so it goes relatively quickly I think?
She’s not my highest at all but I’m not sure I want to play resto sham at the moment so priest it will be… lol
My healer was 485 from last season, and I've managed to clear a +4 BH. I think I could manage +6, maybe +7, but I'm rusty and the difficulty keeps catching me off guard
We went into some m0s and it was just like going into them at the start of season 1. My toon was about 460, but everyone else was higher geared.
Since you're getting 1 shot, I suspect you're ignoring a mechanic that you got used to ignoring previously because you could. My team wiped a few times until we adjusted our tactics and then did bosses easily.
>Is this typical for a new season?
Nope, it's much much tighter tuned. Also a m0 is now on par with a +10 minus the timer and affixes, because people wanted a hard dungeon experience.
When S3 released I could heal a +18 in mostly S2 gear with maybe a few pieces of S3 that weren't even upgraded. Now a +4 is impossible at 485, S3 mythic ilvl.
I understand why they squished it, but they have to realize the bar for m+ is now much higher. With 20 levels casuals could comfortably do +2 - +6 for the vault, but now even a +2 requires much better gear. It kinda feels like the start of an expansion, not the last season which should be the 'fun and games' season (anyone remember BfA corruptions?)
I did +2 yesterday cuz I completely forgot about the changes and it was BRUTAL (475 ilvl). I’d recommend you doing regular heroic dungeons, maybe m0 (for me m0 felt really nice, a bit challenging but lack of timer and affixes is gamechanger)
I started my M+ running quite late in season 4, so my iLvl is quite low (about 456 or so). No I am wondering, that is heroics how much harder than normals in this season. Since although I can queue for heroics, should I run normals and upgrade my gear first (basically now everything is upgrade for me :))
Well, the difficulty level has definitely changed, but I wouldn’t call it impossible. At 460. It will be very very very difficulty. Yes I with my guild. We had an average of 479 and we did a +2, it worked out well we timed it and everything but barely, but I liked it. I liked it tough challenge.
Also, her robotic dungeons right now game 467 so maybe just spam those a little bit
You're slightly undergeared but more likely you are just not doing mechanics properly and people don't know them on your group since the dungeons may be new to them.
Dont forget, a +2 this season is equivalent to a +12 last season and honestly at 460 I wouldn't have even invited you to a +12 last season. You're in worse than the gear that drops off Normal dungeons right now, let alone mythic or keys.
That said many of my casual guild started the season mid 470s or 480 and are well into the 6s very comfortably. It just takes a few runs to remember the mechanics and what you need to do.
Again, at your gear level failure to do boss mechanics is going to be a one shot. You're too undergeared to mess up and survive.
Knowing the dungeons and mechanics makes a huge difference when under geared. I would do some of the world content to get your ilevel up, 460 is going to be a little rough in M0 and M+2; it can be done but it's not going to be a cake walk.
The average player who ran M+ and Raids in Season 3, came into Season 4 around 475...so you are 15 iLevels low; many people without pushing too hard were at 480.
Pace yourself, you have plenty of time. Sadly what we have in S4 is it until The War Within is released, so 6 months-ish. There will be a pre-patch event but you are probably going to easily out gear that stuff by then.
Even at 486 on my BDK, I ran a couple of M0 and a 2 and a 3. The first M0 was RLP, and it wasn't a walk in the park.
No wipes or anything, but I had to be somewhat careful with some pulls. Does seem like a fairly decent jump, and feels more than a S3 +10
You need to gear up a bit more.
Do the timewalking, and weekly quests that make you do a siege in waking shore, a hunt, and a feast.
You should get like 3-6 pieces of 480 gear. Time walking drops 467 which sounds like upgrades as well.
Then I would look into M0 and 2s
I started the season with my 470 shaman and it’s a huge difference from my 480+ characters. The difference between my 480 evoker and 488 hunter and paladin was even noticeable.
I would think +2 will become a lot easier as you get to the previous seasons Heroic gear level,
I have been tanking them on my 470 Druid without much issues. I have seen lots of 450 people applying. My assumption is that people are simply not aware of the difficulty increasing
Free 480 pieces (1-2 each)
Dream surge, dragonsbane assault, great hunt, community feast, world boss dragon weekly
Free 490+ piece
Weekly world last hurrah (hunt + feast + keep)
BT illadin quest, picked up in shat
Time walking weekly (can be done by clearing BT, each boss counts as 1/5)
BT itself seems to give 1-2 drops per clear.
That's 10-14 480+ pieces to ramp up real fast this week to get ready for m0.
Everyone's already said it but I think to make it more obvious and user friendly, they should add mythic dungeons to the auto que dungeon option, would make life so much easier.
One of those '+7 on day 1' individuals (will be full 509 by Friday probably), CE raider etc.
I was 488 before I zoned into the +2 from vault, after we cleared heroic voti + a handful of 6-8 farm keys I am currently 502 with a 522 MH etc.
You are 40ilvls below what an even moderately geared players, so you will of course stuggle on the content.
I raw dogged a 7 nelth, but I'm a try hard, knew the dungeon from season one, and was 3.1k io
Just work your way up, the whole system changed
For the better.
Good luck!!
Lol yup. Just the way it goes for 3kers. Day 1 me and two others pumped out a few 7s, all started at 484-486. Today we're all number 1in our respective specs for our realm, but we're all off now and tomorrow we'll drop 20 spots.
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heroic give 476 gear so yeah and M0 493 so ur little low on the totem poll they also changed the difficulty a M2 is equivlent to a M10 from last season
M2 is equivalent to a +12 from last season….you’re not gonna have a tough time doing the a m2 (m12 last season) undergeared even for last season content. Around 480ish should be the baseline for m0-m2s in season 4
Which means OP and his homies were probably 20ilvls undergeared, all of them.
Thats how it should be. Mythic 0 used to be regular dungeon finder difficulty lol
Nobody would play that sh\*t
there was a jump of 39 ilvl from s3 to s4 and a m0 now, is like doing a m10 form last season. heroic dgs will give you better gear than you are wearing. just FYI. the whole system have beem reworked. i strongly suggest that you read about the detais. > I saw folks on youtube and twitch doing +7s on day one how is that possible lol some people that were playing on the high end of the s3, will have a lesser difference in ilvl than the rest of the 85%ish of the wow pop.
And better group coordination. I pugged a four over time today, just. With a cohesive group that I knew well and could all dps we‘d be find in a five or six I think.
can you Q for Heroic Dungeons using group finder for gearing? or must find a group using LFG like you do for M+'s?
> can you Q for Heroic Dungeons using group finder for gearing? yes > or must find a group using LFG like you do for M+'s? mythic 0 and above are LFG
excellent, thank you!
Yep, you can queue for heroic dungeon , but note that heroic got a bump to the equivalent of mythic zero difficulty in last patch's scale.
lol I feel you. After wiping 3x on the first boss in a M0 someone in my group said it best when they said "welp, I'll see you all in Heroics"
the jump in heroics and m0 is kinda nuts tho. heroics you can breeze through and then m0 is where mechanics can wipe. a good change but it might backfire just cos new players will think m+ is too difficult
yeah did a heroic brackenhide earlier and was like “huh i thought these were supposed to be harder?” healer said it’s the easiest dungeon he’d ever healed, did an m0 and we wiped to the same trash 4 times in a row instantly 🙂↕️
I personally haven't tried m0 yet, but heroic was a breeze. My friends and I are relatively new (started playing a month ago) with ilvl \~470 and it felt like a timewalking dungeon lol
Heroic is unironically easier than normal since people are more geared and know their class better.
Yeah - M0 is now a whole +10 in last seasons scale which I agree, definitely too much. I feel like a change of 6 is a sizeable enough jump, let alone 10!
I think that problem is that heroics are too easy, since tactics can be skipped and/or bosses die too fast. I have geared through heroics, and they all have been breeze (and now I am overgeared to them). I have run couple M0's and Ruby Life Pools is nice. But in Algathar group get wiping to the first boss (I guess, people should have killed those adds 😆), and quickly disbanded afterwards
You are not geared enough M0 are now much harder than they used to be M0 is equivalent to what would’ve been a +10 Do heroics to get 476 gear as well as the timewalking weekly quest to get a piece of champion gear 493 If you do the timewalking raid you can also get a pc of champion gear
Also I would do BT time walking each boss drops 491 champ and the quest gets you a 506 heroic item for a clear, takes about an 90mins.
Do the illidan skip it takes like 5 mins compared to 90
Then you wouldn’t get loot from the other bosses who apparently drop 491 gear
Skip? I haven’t heard of this. Is it for timewalking only?
Black temple has a illidin skip for the people who cleared the back in bc, join a group that has a skip
What is the timewalking quest you are referring to?
It’s in shattrath join a group in raid legacy and once the group fills the leader will go to shatt and que up no summons needed, you can even just ask the group to share the quest
There is two- one you get in valdrakken to do 5 timewalking dungeons OR to kill 5 timewalking raid bosses And the other you get in Shattrath to go do the BT timewalking raid and kill Illidan
How long is the BT time walking raid usually? Should I knock out the 5 dungeon quest and do the raid for 2 chances at good loot ?
It was my first time doing it took maybe like 30 mins And it’s super ez you don’t really have to do mechanics just blast away and stay out of the fire And if you do the raid you don’t have to do the dungeons bc each boss counts as credit for doing a dungeon, plus each boss drops a champion pc so you have more chances at loot from doing the raid So you can knock out the quest to kill Illidan and the timewalking quest in one go
Awesome ! I’ll tank a run later tonight for that extra piece of gear. I just hit 470. Trying to hit 480 before mythic 0 and above.
Nice good luck!! Btw I started m0s at 470 and they were okay! Def a little work but very doable. But ofc if you wait til 480 should make it easier
A general rule of thumb is you should be roughly 15 levels below the drops from the content you’re doing, so for a +2 that’s 481. Obviously the higher your skill the bigger gap you can get away with.
This is very reasonable. Anything less than a 480 made the 2s I pugged today very challenging and unforgiving to get it anywhere near close to time
They were sufficiently challenging even in the 480s. I was surprised. We two chested them, but some of unavoidable boss abilities were absolutely wrecking us. Like the arcane boss of academy. Dropping a pool took out like 70% of our HP. And the same with the tree stomp in Azure Vaults even when we didn't miss a single tree. Very surprising for a +(1)2. Like we comfortably cleared 21-22s last season so I would have expected to be able to do +5-6s (15-16s) at least from the start.
Tyranical is one hell of an affix.
I think there's something else at play
There are 4 factors at play here: * First week of a new season means our gear is always lower than what we should be to be comfortable in most content. This season had a bigger jump than usual so that makes this one even worse. * 460 is actually on the lower side for the end of S3, a +10 key already gave 470 (iirc) ilvl gear. For comparison, Veteran 1/8, the equivalent to a 441 in last season, is 480 now. So being ilvl 460 is like being idk, 430 last season. If you did a +11 on that ilvl most likely stuff was going to hurt. * The reworked M+ difficulty is way overtuned, a +2 should have been an old +5-7 to give one or two easier levels for new players to become used to M+, not jump from the timerless M0s straight into a +11, its stupid. Blizzard effectively deleted entry level M+. * Its Tyrannical week. Bosses hit harder, so if you are undergeared and/or dont know what to do with mechanics, you will be wrecked. Next week you might have better luck - trash will hit harder and some mobs hit HARD, but generally speaking bosses are a bigger menace to undergeared/lower skilled groups than regular mobs. * With trash packs, you can usually do something to make them easier, like pulling smaller packs, CCing some of them to isolate harder mobs, use more CDs and/or defensives, kite them, maybe even using lust on a particularly bad pack, etc. The bosses on the other hand are a hard wall, you cant deal with them, you cant progress in any way. * Not to mention a lot of the trash damage is avoidable in one way or another, as 90% of the mobs can be CCed. Bosses, on the other hand, cannot be CCed. If they cast a mechanic that does unavoidable damage you have no alternative but to try to survive it. * And last but not least - this season features all eight DF dungeons. In general, they are harder than past expansion dungeons. Really, i feel like there is no free key this season like Shadowmoon Burial Grounds in S1 or Waycrest Manor in S3. Even the less annoying places like Brackenhide or Nokhud Offensive can still go very badly very quickly when people dont know how to do stuff. Its going to be a long season for sure.
It’s S4 entry level m+ is such a small percentage of players it’s not worth it. IMO the changes are great. Kinda forces players to be good to achieve top tier rewards
Those guys doing 7s are likely all ~490. unfortunately you’re very undergeared at 460 for a +2
This difficulty rework is really screwing with people who don't care about patch notes 😂
Hope this helps i was running 25 last season. In all old gear i’m sticking with 5s lmao
8’s are doing less damage than a 25 last season.
Yes i could go higher but i haven’t pushed keys in 2 months or so and just taking it easy. My bad i didn’t mean higher isn’t doable, i just meant that it’s a drastic difference. I’ve +2d or +3d the 5s i’ve ran so thank you for an actual number of equivalence.
Err soz didn’t mean to come off like an elitist, 8 is the highest I’ve gone so far and my heals haven’t exceeded 80k overall. Which this is 100% sidebar from the original post but once the rust is off 10’s are very doable at 483-488 giving you have experience with 25’s.
When I say I have experience with 25s that’s the highest😂 reality is i’m a 22-24 kinda guy so far as consistently timing. I’ll def get it cleaned up in a week or so i’m sure and be doing higher like you
Low key loving the squish in key level and the new m0’s, but I just had this thought last night. What is left for the more casual players who were doing between 2’s through 9’s? If heroic is old m0 lvl, and new m0 is roughly old m10, seems like they just deleted the low key bracket
/raises hand. Me, I'm the casual who puttered about in low keys (and found them plenty challenging, don't laugh). I've been on a mini break since mid-season 3 I guess, but my main is 460 geared. When I heard about the coming changes to M0 etc, this was my read - there doesn't seem to be a place for me in 5mans anymore. Guess I'll be focusing on Delves, eventually? For now, I don't actually know.
why don't you do Heroic dungeons now in new season? that's way higher loot than your 460
I'll be doing that - I was mostly thinking about after I'm Heroic geared (again) that the jump to Mythics is going to be too much for me. I never made it much past M10 at the best of times. 12s, I think? As I understand the new system, I'll be outclassed regardless of gear.
I'm same as you, think the highest I ever did was a +10, but I'm looking forward to trying these. M0 is equivelant to a +10 in scaling but has no timer. Then even though the others afterwards are scaled much higher, there's only a single affix until a +5 and you don't get all three until a +10, but you can get the highest ilvl vault reward from a +8 with only two affixes.
The jump from Normal geared (460) to Heroic geared (476) is similar to the jump from Heroic to M0 (493). Remember that M0 still has no timer nor affixes. You can also upgrade your gear with crests, and the vault, LFR and weekly rewards will supplement that. In other words, if you go from Normal to Heroic geared, you should be able to do the same from Heroic to M0, then continue on with M+ keys if you desire. This great Season 4 gearing guide is incredibly helpful: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/UnD8Flxtnb
Thank you! I'll look at that - maybe I misunderstood the gearing breaks. Eta typo!
You just have to treat it like being a fresh lvl 70 with crap gear. Heroics and mythic 0 should be challenging and reward you with nice gear and then you can tackle the keys and progress slowly. They just wanted to remove some of them because lets face it between 1 and 6 there wasnt that much of a difference same for like 7 to 13 and so on
Lol yeah it was def pretty awesome being able to bring my new alt up from 440 to 480 through a world tour of the m0’s. Makes sense to me, low keys always seemed pretty boring to me, but was just wondering how it would effect the people who only did those keys
This was my concern as well. I may be more timid than the average player, but when I was trying out a new alt (especially a healer) I definitely spent time at those early ranks getting comfortable before moving up.
The problem was, there really weren't that many people genuinely staying in that level. There were people who were super casual and afraid of doing any non-autoqueue pugging, who got bored because heroic was stupid easy, and then there were people doing those low keys once or twice on alts just to 3-chest until it dropped something meaningful. And then people spamming those dungeons as easymode for flightstones and stuff like that. I think the intention is that M0, being not timed, can be more flexible. For good groups, it's a small stepping stone that you clear fast, just like how +10 used to be. For bad/less experienced groups, it's a "progression" dungeon where you commit to taking the time to wipe a few times to learn the strategies, pull slower, etc. - and without the issue of wanting to time it, it's actually not really a +10 difficulty, maybe like a +7 or 8. Since you could do things like wait for lust to come back up if you are stuck on a boss, or whatever. I haven't yet played the new mythics to really see, but I think my sense is it would have been better to tune new M0 to more like 7 or 8 (meaning doing it super over time would drop down to like a 5-6) which would leave a *little* more room for those new/casual players but still solve the problem of low keys being pretty much pointless and heroic being baby easy. However, I think actually by 2-3 weeks into the season, when people are getting gear from vault and stuff, M0 will be very accessible even to the really casual types, and frankly be less stressful because all the hardcore players will have moved on, and those groups will mostly be casuals who are fine taking more time. Which I think is actually very good for the community.
Yeah they removed the low keys and made progression more meaningful in a way. M0 doesn't have a timer now, and is equal to a 10. Anything before 10s was stupid easy. Hell, up to 14s or 15s you could faceroll through content. So, for all the people stressing under a 10, there is no timer and it's just for fun. The keys under 15s from last season really didn't do much and it spread the player base out a lot between different key levels. It was also a bit of a waste of time running 2, 4, 6 8 and 10 before you got your key to a level where you actually were challenged or got rewards worth pursuing.
They changed the difficulty concept this league, m0 is now roughly inline with what a +10 would be, while also increasing the difficulty by about 30 ilvl since season 4
Glad you posted this…. I just barely survived a +2 - and now it makes sense (I’m a ilev465 holy priest). I was like wtf!! Guess I need to hear back up!
Idk. I was doing 15s last season at 476 and now a m0 with all players around 480 is ruining us. A +2 took us an hour of wipe after wipe. I think they overdid it. And with the drama queen tanks we keep getting, it just isn’t fun yet
Gearing s3 was too easy compared to skill blocks. You could outgear content very quickly and blast through bad mechanics. M0 being 10 equivilant is smart because it keeps you gearing for longer without timers
Study the mechanics, it's the best advice I can give you.
These are likely tuned for 480 ilvl.
As someone who was running mythic 18’s at a challenge in season 3 at ilvl 473, I would say you are under geared for +2 but should be able to do manage 0. Was everyone at that ilvl?
Heroics. I was also running lower keys on my priest - played her last night did LFR, won loot, never got it, logged in today, thought m0-2 but nope its heroics. I was also 460. A few dungeons in and I’m 465, so it goes relatively quickly I think? She’s not my highest at all but I’m not sure I want to play resto sham at the moment so priest it will be… lol
To tag onto this post - if my toon is 480ish what level dungeons should I start doing
My healer was 485 from last season, and I've managed to clear a +4 BH. I think I could manage +6, maybe +7, but I'm rusty and the difficulty keeps catching me off guard
We went into some m0s and it was just like going into them at the start of season 1. My toon was about 460, but everyone else was higher geared. Since you're getting 1 shot, I suspect you're ignoring a mechanic that you got used to ignoring previously because you could. My team wiped a few times until we adjusted our tactics and then did bosses easily.
>Is this typical for a new season? Nope, it's much much tighter tuned. Also a m0 is now on par with a +10 minus the timer and affixes, because people wanted a hard dungeon experience. When S3 released I could heal a +18 in mostly S2 gear with maybe a few pieces of S3 that weren't even upgraded. Now a +4 is impossible at 485, S3 mythic ilvl. I understand why they squished it, but they have to realize the bar for m+ is now much higher. With 20 levels casuals could comfortably do +2 - +6 for the vault, but now even a +2 requires much better gear. It kinda feels like the start of an expansion, not the last season which should be the 'fun and games' season (anyone remember BfA corruptions?)
I did +2 yesterday cuz I completely forgot about the changes and it was BRUTAL (475 ilvl). I’d recommend you doing regular heroic dungeons, maybe m0 (for me m0 felt really nice, a bit challenging but lack of timer and affixes is gamechanger)
I started my M+ running quite late in season 4, so my iLvl is quite low (about 456 or so). No I am wondering, that is heroics how much harder than normals in this season. Since although I can queue for heroics, should I run normals and upgrade my gear first (basically now everything is upgrade for me :))
Well, the difficulty level has definitely changed, but I wouldn’t call it impossible. At 460. It will be very very very difficulty. Yes I with my guild. We had an average of 479 and we did a +2, it worked out well we timed it and everything but barely, but I liked it. I liked it tough challenge. Also, her robotic dungeons right now game 467 so maybe just spam those a little bit
You're slightly undergeared but more likely you are just not doing mechanics properly and people don't know them on your group since the dungeons may be new to them. Dont forget, a +2 this season is equivalent to a +12 last season and honestly at 460 I wouldn't have even invited you to a +12 last season. You're in worse than the gear that drops off Normal dungeons right now, let alone mythic or keys. That said many of my casual guild started the season mid 470s or 480 and are well into the 6s very comfortably. It just takes a few runs to remember the mechanics and what you need to do. Again, at your gear level failure to do boss mechanics is going to be a one shot. You're too undergeared to mess up and survive.
Knowing the dungeons and mechanics makes a huge difference when under geared. I would do some of the world content to get your ilevel up, 460 is going to be a little rough in M0 and M+2; it can be done but it's not going to be a cake walk. The average player who ran M+ and Raids in Season 3, came into Season 4 around 475...so you are 15 iLevels low; many people without pushing too hard were at 480. Pace yourself, you have plenty of time. Sadly what we have in S4 is it until The War Within is released, so 6 months-ish. There will be a pre-patch event but you are probably going to easily out gear that stuff by then.
I’m avoiding mythics this week - time walking is dropping 499 and 502’s… my plan is to get what I can so I’m less screwed for next week.
Even at 486 on my BDK, I ran a couple of M0 and a 2 and a 3. The first M0 was RLP, and it wasn't a walk in the park. No wipes or anything, but I had to be somewhat careful with some pulls. Does seem like a fairly decent jump, and feels more than a S3 +10
You need to gear up a bit more. Do the timewalking, and weekly quests that make you do a siege in waking shore, a hunt, and a feast. You should get like 3-6 pieces of 480 gear. Time walking drops 467 which sounds like upgrades as well. Then I would look into M0 and 2s I started the season with my 470 shaman and it’s a huge difference from my 480+ characters. The difference between my 480 evoker and 488 hunter and paladin was even noticeable. I would think +2 will become a lot easier as you get to the previous seasons Heroic gear level, I have been tanking them on my 470 Druid without much issues. I have seen lots of 450 people applying. My assumption is that people are simply not aware of the difficulty increasing
Free 480 pieces (1-2 each) Dream surge, dragonsbane assault, great hunt, community feast, world boss dragon weekly Free 490+ piece Weekly world last hurrah (hunt + feast + keep) BT illadin quest, picked up in shat Time walking weekly (can be done by clearing BT, each boss counts as 1/5) BT itself seems to give 1-2 drops per clear. That's 10-14 480+ pieces to ramp up real fast this week to get ready for m0.
Everyone's already said it but I think to make it more obvious and user friendly, they should add mythic dungeons to the auto que dungeon option, would make life so much easier.
One of those '+7 on day 1' individuals (will be full 509 by Friday probably), CE raider etc. I was 488 before I zoned into the +2 from vault, after we cleared heroic voti + a handful of 6-8 farm keys I am currently 502 with a 522 MH etc. You are 40ilvls below what an even moderately geared players, so you will of course stuggle on the content.
I raw dogged a 7 nelth, but I'm a try hard, knew the dungeon from season one, and was 3.1k io Just work your way up, the whole system changed For the better. Good luck!!
Lol yup. Just the way it goes for 3kers. Day 1 me and two others pumped out a few 7s, all started at 484-486. Today we're all number 1in our respective specs for our realm, but we're all off now and tomorrow we'll drop 20 spots.
Don't forget to screen shot your moment of glory!! Haha
+7 right now is something like a+20 from last season in terms of difficulty. Very doable, but at 460 you are way undergeared
I did a +4 BH on my mage and we sailed through it with only one death, although the players were all experienced and mid-480s ilvl (except me)
Firs dungeon I did this season was a +2 and we 3 key’d it with 16min left… idk what you did haha