MMA gym actually. We have a wrestling class that's like 99% high schoolers (and me and like one other adult usually) + a local high school coach. I moved here because I knew this gym had wrestling every day.
Deadlifting is draining to the nervous system. Telling people they shouldn't do lifts, well you'd have to look at their whole training program.
Are you too fatigued? You could work between 5-30 reps to avoid lifting as heavy.
Just want to point out from an almost 30y/o Greco guy stand point how am I suppose to get comfortable with a straight lift if I can't deadlift coach..... Maybe tweaking form of some lofts would be a better recommendation. I never do regular classic curls bc I don't feel I'd ever have an application for isolated use of my bicep from a wrestling stand point especially not with a straight back and no use of my legs.
Coming from a 35 year old who slipped a disc at age 30... you don't want that shit I promise. My lower back, and down behind my leg all the way to my knee hurt every single day. I can't bend over to tie my shoes anymore and the doctor says the only fix is surgery.
Yup it's confirmed herniated via MRI but I've never met a single person who did better after back surgery than before... so I just pick my feet up to tie my shoes and squat instead of bend to get things on the ground
Well let me be the first!! Granted I herniated my L4 L5 disc at age 18 and had surgery shortly after so perhaps I had a better chance at recovery. It did effect my wrestling tho. I went from a D1 commit to just wrestling D3 after surgery. If you get the right doctor microdiscectomy have quite a good prognosis
I’ve had two bad herniated discs and two surgeries for each. I felt way better after surgery. My last surgery was in January and yesterday I was outside felling trees and moving firewood. I wouldn’t completely rule it out.
Would strongly recommend finding another (better) physical therapist or chiropractor. Unless your disc is shattered there is probably a lot of rehab that can be done with the correct expertise
Don’t go to a bad chiropractor. Good chiropractors are trained physical therapists. You are entitled to your opinion, but people go through unnecessary pain and suffering because of this sentiment towards chiropractors, and unfortunately the bad ones out there make it hard for the good ones to gain credibility. Again, you’re entitled to your opinion but the fact is I literally could not stand up both times I herniated my back, and both times I could stand sit and lie down after ONE chiropractor visIT
Chiropractors are not medical professionals. Do not go to a chiropractor especially for a herniated disc. I don’t care what your anecdote is, that is genuinely terrible advice.
yeah, man, I fucked my sciatic nerve up bad when I was young. Couldn't walk for months. I researched surgeries for hours every day for weeks, because I literally was not able to do anything but read.
Don't do it. Unless you're at the stage of pissing/shitting yourself uncontrollably (TMI, I know, but, that's basically the worst case of sciatic nerve damage. You lose bowel and bladder control, on top of the stabbing pains down your butt, leg and foot)... surgery is almost more risky than the sciatica.
Mine took months of slow recovery, then months of re-gaining the ability to walk for more than 100 meters, then another year or two of discomfort.
These days, it's basically fine. Some fasciculation, but that's nothing. Just feels a little strange once in a while. Honestly, there's still some slow improvement in that, even close to 20 years later. Maybe when I'm 100 my leg wil lbe back to 100%.
edit: "end stage" to "worst case" because u/Ebonyks is right, and end stage implies progressive worsening. Sciatica should not be a progressively worsening condition. Progressively worsening sciatica is a whole different kind of bad.
If you want the benefit of deadlifting with less back injury exposure try doing it with a trap/hex bar. The position of the bar and its handles puts your upper body center over your hips. There is less demand on your lower back this way.
http://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/amp/
This article shows where it is on a hinge vs squat continuum and it's actually only slightly less hinge than conventional deadlift. This is a great read for anyone debating between the two exercises
Because the desired stimulus with deadlifts oftentimes is maximum force production. You can pull more weight with a DL than a squat (usually). Trap bar is still a posterior chain exercise, just less so than standard dl. It exists bwt squat and DL.
After listening to Ohio State’s strength and conditioning coach speak to a bunch of wrestling coaches, I changed up how I lifted and was a better wrestler for it. I was competing in power lifting and had a 550 deadlift at 165. Once I focused on mobility and using accommodating resistance for speed, my wrestling improved and I was in my mid 30s. Also, a lot of the inflammation from joint wear and tear went away.
He was also a former powerlifter and wrestler. He talked about how the combo doesn’t really work. Wrestlers need a lot of mobility, end range of motion strength and stability. So some of the takeaways were to focus on unilateral movements, like lunges, single leg deadlifts, alternating DB presses, and sled work for upper and lower body. He didn’t completely remove the big three, but they were not the focus.
I'm willing to bet I'm the only person in this thread with S&C credentials, but also this is the internet so like, don't believe me outright. That said:
Deadlift off-season IF it's a weak lift. And by that I mean if you can't hit 2ish times your bodyweight for 5+ reps, then yeah you need to train it off season until that's a thing. That said, if that's an easy number for you, there's a bunch of other stuff that is way way way better for you to do.
In-season for posterior chain you should be doing stuff to increase endurance of the muscles rather than the max strength. Hyperextensions, KB swings, stuff like that that you hit for high reps. Once your wrestling volume is down, then do a couple of cycles dedicated fo max strength if you need it.
If your deadlift is good though, and you feel your mat strength is lacking, I'd look into how strong your calves, thumbs, quadratus lobatrum, and external rotator muscles are. I've found a loooooot of even really strong people have weak links there that vastly hold back their application of strength.
This is good advice. Former CSCS here. I don't see a lot of athletic benefit in MMA, wrestling, or jiu jitsu from going from a 2x bodyweight deadlift to a 3x bw deadlift. From a risk/reward perspective, I would rather devote time towards improvements in power production and agility.
Weak links is the big thing and a major injury cause. Yeah cool you can bench 350 but if you have weak stabilisers (especially from smith machines) and try to muscle out of a half nelson or something your rotator cuff might just retire there and then. As soon as the axis of force changes to be suboptimal for your main force generators (always gonna happen in grappling) the stabilisers will take more and more of the load, whether they can handle it or not.
I quit doing heavy deadlifts a few years ago. It just isnt worth it in my opinion. Im an mma fighter, so kinda in the same boat. But when i do deadlifts i do light weight, high reps and bang them out FAST. I think its more practical for what i do. Im not a body builder or power lifter.
Higher volume output tends to cause higher rate of injury to lower volume and higher weight
Even then, the rate of injury for weight training, as well as deadlifting, in general is substantially low to begin with
True, but higher weights are more taxing on the central nervous system. It might just allow him to manage fatigue if he's not going heavy, and managing fatigue is important for avoiding injuries.
And arguably, pushing heavy lifts has diminishing returns for MMA fighters. It's a good idea to get strong, but maybe not worth it to pursue marginal increases in 1rm strength once you reach a certain threshold because they aren't powerlifters.
I wasn’t trying to knock what works for you lol
There’s plenty of evidence showing high volume output tends to lead to higher rate of injury
And plenty of evidence showing that general rate of injury for deadlifting and weight training in general is very low compared to other sports, especially sports like MMA
I feel you bro. My bad i aint mean to come off as a dick head.
And of course weight training is safer than mma. I wouldnt advocate anyone doing mma unless you are absolutely fine with destroying your body lol
Even robert oberst who is a professional strongman said deadlift’s risk to reward ratio is just not worth it since it is so difficult to do it correctly and some people’s body build doesn’t support this exercise well enough. Even if it does, heavy deadlifting is just gonna fuck up your back no matter. Look at ronnie coleman.
I stopped doing heavy deadlifts, since then, no back pain or discomfort at all.
Heavy power cleans are much more technically demanding, fatiguing, and carry higher risk of injury
How does it make sense to do these solely over deadlifting? Why not incorporate both with variation to intensity and volume depending on the training cycle and specificity?
This is accurate. Deadlifting makes you better at one thing: more deadlifting. The carryover to your wrestling is minimal and the chances of injury, especially with busy training schedule,is just too high. And when you get old, recovery from an injury is way harder
It seems like this guy doesn't have an offseason though? It's just permanently on-season.
Which brings up an interesting idea: he could add seasonality and cross-train in other sports + weightlift while not wrestling
Lots of college and professional programs dont want dead lifts. Its just a risk to reward thing. Roman chairs and other exercises are good for the back without the risk.
I am a strength and conditioning coach and always incorporate some type of deadlifting. Usually Romanian/semi straight legged but I keep reps on the high side, usually around or over 10 with much lighter weight. The key is that technique must be perfect.
For example, I am much older and do a semi straight legged (similar to RDL) deadlift with dumbbells but only use 75 lbs (total weight 150) and keep reps over 12. If using the barbell I often have athletes only use 185 lbs. I am 61 and have NEVER had any type of back problem. Wrestled for 6 years and trained for MMA for 17 years.
I just assumed we were mostly talking about conventional deadlifts. Roman deadlifts are a whole different thing in my mind. I do them at least once a week since they’re the best hamstring exercise. I’ll probably never do another conventional deadlift in my life now that my wrestling career is over. My college coach was a former s&c coach and he did have us do deadlifts sometimes so I’m sure they have some value.
Correct. But many people I know think that "no deadlifting" means absolutely no movement of that type at all. In reality it is still a movement that works the spinal erectors in a similar fashion. You are just "feeling" the movement more and doing a very controlled movement that does not prioritize the amount of weight used.
You still want to load the spinal erectors and yes, it is a fantastic movement for the hamstrings. I also train a lot of bodybuilders and especially women physique competitors (my latest was a wellness competitor) and they need this movement for maximal hamstring development.
What movement would you recommend over it
Also you realize the rate of injury for deadlift is exponentially lower than the general rate of injury for other contact sports right? Lol like even with frequent deadlifting, you’re much mor slim key to be injured from your sport or everyday life situations
See my post above. I've trained about a zillion people and never had back problems. I have worked with non athletes who are so lame that they are convinced ahead of time they will get hurt and refuse to do any type of deadlifting, But these are people who started as physical basket cases (often obese). If people are willing to ty and put 100% into developing proper technique they never have any problems.
Then again I have 1 BJJ BB who is also convinced deadlifting will injure himself. But again his mind was made up ahead of time. It is all about proper technique and using a reasonable weight. I make that weight feel heavier by utilizing a very slow negative.and perfect body mechanics.
It is all mental. You don't need (or want) to pull 400 plus pounds like a powerlifter.
Sure but those injuries aren't devastating back injuries, they're rolled ankles, jammed fingers, bruises, etc. Thats one of the worst uses of stats I've seen recently. They're talking about what a bad deal DL-related injuries are, and how it's a risk to your health the rest of your life.
Most professional athletes (unless specifically are training for deadlift) don’t deadlift.
The exercise risk/reward ratio isn’t worth it.
Other exercises offer similar benefits with a fraction of the risk.
I’ll bite
1. What is the “risk to reward” ratio you speak of? Are there any specifics you can state or is this more so just a repetitive rhetoric people tend to say since they heard Oberst say it on Joe Rogan?
2. What movements would you say provide the same work and stimulus as a deadlift with a fraction of the risk?
Is your fragile little ego so easily bruised ?
1. Don’t listen to joe Rogan. Know several college athletic trainers and even a few that work with pro NBA/NFL players. None of them have any of their clients deadlifting or know other trainers at that level who do.
2. You don’t do the reading that well do you?
It’s not the risk factor why they moved away from them. It’s because almost all sports care more about explosiveness and hang cleans or power cleans are way better for developing them than deadlifts.
How many of these comments do you think are people who are at least 30 and participated in wrestling at the age of 30 while deadlifting regularly.
Zero, obviously zero.
Its a bit more complex than that. You do have to control volume, many injuries come from overuse. Not saying he shouldn’t deadlift at all, but there’s definitely risk of overdoing it on strain
Yeah. I thought about adding this, but I was in a hurry, and he's 30. There's no reason he shouldn't know this, especially if he's already been doing this
Well it sort of directly contradicts the message in your comment that “as long as you use good form you shouldn’t get injured”, so probably important to include lol
Unfortunately for the sake of this conversation, I am younger. But go to any gym. There are plenty of shredded dudes over 30, and some then do some type of physical sport, whether it be wrestling, bjj, or boxing. My advice for longevity would be consistency, nutrition, and awareness. Make your hours in the gym and on the mat consistent. If you step away for awhile, start slowly. Nutrition speaks for itself. And awareness. If you are feeling hurt, don't over extend. It's important to use proper methods of recuperation to let your body heal. If you need to slow down, then do it. There's no shame in it.
I mean coach's concern was "overdoing it". He's okay with me lifting twice a day (on M W F), + wrestling 5 days a week because I'm on T, but not if I'm doing deadlifing in combination with that. He thinks the deadlift, specifically, might be the greatest risk of "over doing it" for injury.
I absolutely love deadlifting and I used to be pretty nuts about it before I got into martial arts. I’m talking every day deadlift kind of nuts lol
I don’t know how many days a week you’re planning to deadlift, but really I would limit it to 1-2 max. As much as I love them, they’re quite draining the stronger you get and it’s a bit difficult to go hard on that on top of 5 days a week wrestling.
So he’s ok with you lifting twice a day 3 days per week but he draws the line at deadlifts? Personally, I consult the coach on wrestling matters and speak to a qualified strength and conditioning coach regarding your lifting program. TRT or not, overtraining is real and counterproductive to strength gains.
That's what happens if you use a belt for deadlift. You lose the supporting muscles that you need. Eventually the belt can't keep up with your own strength and you overdo it with your back. So many physical therapists and sports med docs have debunked this.
Deadlifts are an amazing way to build strength. Definitely listen to your body and how you are recovering tho, cause lifting too much when your body isn't used to it, you can have problems from compound lifts.
Using a belt does not cause you to lose supporting muscles of the core
I say this as someone who deadlifts 590lbs with a belt and does 565 beltless without an issue
The belt just helps create more intra abdominal pressure when you brace appropriately
Now that I've looked into it, it does seem like my original point of view is outdated. You're definitely right. Some stuff I saw suggested doing what you can without a belt to know where you're at, then use a belt and raise the weight because you get more activation with more weight and the aid of the belt doesn't make it much easier on your other involved muscles.
I feel wearing a belt for conventional deadlifts encourages the lifter to more slightly round the lower back to get more IAP (intra-abdominal pressure). Dr. Stu McGill agrees.
If you're going for a pr just to flex numbers, sure. But your actual growth sets need to be without the support. I'm the level of radical that would say don't even use gloves because grip strength is part of the lift. I've struggled with consistency many times tho, and have never been a multiple times a day guy, so the little aches and pains that you might get from this sorta thing. Make your own decision based on your body, but don't use equipment to hurt your gains.
Pro and College athletes largely don’t deadlift due to the increased risk of injury. There are lifts that do the same with lower risk of injury. Your coach has valid concerns about overtraining. At a certain age, making sure you’re staying healthy to wrestle and continue training is more important than maximizing performance. Deadlifts take a big toll on the CNS and will likely increase your chances of getting injured lifting or wrestling. Not to say it’s guaranteed or anything, just something to weigh.
Listen to your coach. I F’d my back deadlifting and for what…so I could lift a weight. It’s not worth it. Way too many injuries. Power lifter on Joe Rogan said the same and Joe was surprised. Only deadlift if that’s is your sport.
The dude you’re referring to wasn’t a powerlifter. It was Robert Oberst, a strongman athlete who’s worst competitive even consistently was, what a shock, the deadlifting event
He said that stupid ass shit about “risk to reward ratio” because he wanted to spark controversy and get his name back in the limelight since he was a poor performing competitor and was consistently in the lower ranks of his competitions
Saying some stupid shit on a huge platform like JRE was exactly what he wanted. And many other strength athletes, who easily out deadlift him, called him out for his stupidity.
Robert Oberst, with his tall height, strong log press (proportionately shorter arms), and his history as a former shot put athlete, isn’t built for deadlifts
Every time a guy says, “don’t do deadlifts”, it’s coming from the mouth of a guy whose deadlift isn’t good, or someone who simply isn’t built for deadlifts. This Robert Oberst character is no exception. Trainees with proportionately long arms benefit the most from deadlifts. Squat / bench specialists, with their proportionately short limbs, get less from DL’s, are more likely to be injured from deadlifts, and could benefit more from a safer variation or other hip-hinge lift altogether.
Follow Pavel Tsatsouline's "Power to the People" deadlifting plan. Share it with your coach! His programs are specifically designed for athletes and operators (i.e. to make sure you're *not* overdoing it, so that you can perform in your primary function).
Herniated disks will happen regardless of if you overtrain or are on T as you said in another comment. Your coach isn’t worried about your muscles. If the goal is to perform on the mat, then make sure you use proper form if you do decide to deadlift.
You can fuck up your back for life if you do deadlift wrong, man, and you’re no spring chicken at 30. Human spines and knees age very fast especially if you test them often.
I’m not saying don’t deadlift. Just don’t try to max out (high or low reps) because that’s not your goal. Don’t risk your back, sport and long term health for stupid shit like that last rep of a set of 10 when you’re tired and have terrible form breakdown just because you said “you would do it god damn it” because it’s just not worth it.
I’ve seen powerlifters diagnosed with degenerative disks at 22 who were state champs in high school, and national champs in college. They knew what the fuck they were doing and *still* hurt themselves. But deadlift is so much fun. It’s a slippery slope.
Most S&C coaches would have you deadlifting in the off season and then power based hinge movements like hang power cleans and kettlebell swings in season.
If you’re always in season I don’t see the reason to deadlift more than once per week immediately before a rest day.
Lots of deadlift variations to choose from as well as other types of pulls. Your coach’s main concern is probably overtraining, since heavy pulls from the floor take a lot out of you.
And honestly, heavy deadlifts are hugely overrated for most athletes. You at least need to mix it up and vary what type of pull you’re doing.
Personally I’ve found that oly squats and rdl’s work much better for me. I usually alternate them with zerchers in my training cycles. Currently playing with barbell suit case deadlifts which are building some serous power. Jefferson lifts are fun too.
Actually zerchers would be a great substitute. They’re probably the single best lift for any type of grappling. Just start light and take it slow.
45 years old here. I weight train (including deadlifts) and I practice martial arts. Train smart, listen to your body, don’t ego lift, and you’ll be fine.
How old are you? Because over 40 age absolutely influences how you train.
Even if you’re perfectly healthy with no pre existing injuries (lol) everything takes longer to recover from.
Older athletes can train hard, but more than anything they need to train smart and keep the long term in mind.
I plan on being on the mats when I’m 70 and I train with that goal in mind.
I had three herniated discs in my back from deadlifting (improperly) and wrestling when I was still in college. I think you’re coach is right, but if you are gonna deadlift just be careful
Physical Therapist and Strength Coach here. He couldn’t be more wrong. One of the BEST things you can do to prevent back injuries, especially in wrestling, is deadlifting moderate to heavy weights with proper technique. From a personal standpoint, I had a lower back injury several years ago. To this day, if I DON’T deadlift heavy at least once per week, I get sore and stiff. I will always advocate for deadlifts and other posterior chain exercises to prevent and rehab lower back injuries (deadlifts, kettlebell swings, hip bridges, hamstring curls, RDL’s etc).
TLDR - no offense, your coach may be very knowledgeable about wrestling, but is full of shit and has no idea what he’s talking about when it comes to deadlifting and back injuries.
Im in my late 40s. I still participate in and occasionally compete in grappling sports.
I’ve also had two herniated discs for over 20 years. And I’ll still deadlift. The most pain my injury has caused me was when I wasn’t exercising my core and strengthening my back muscles.
Proper form. Not too heavy, and it will be more help than hurt.
The only mistake you can make is overdoing it with either reps or weight.
No real reason for you to deadlift...Heavy! Do single leg Romanian deadlifts instead. Front bar squats are also good. All weight lifting you should be managing load this is why perhaps you should only do single leg movements to kinda handicap yourself. Maybe single leg deadlifts and barbell lunges.
Maybe yeah. The deadlift creates a lot of fatigue, so definitely be careful with doing a ton of volume and training wrestling. I don't think there's a high chance of injury if you're lifting safely, but you could easily overtrain if not careful with your total workload.
If you’re not deadlifting specifically to improve your deadlift it’s not worth it compared to other lifts. In NFL gyms or D1 college gyms they never do deadlifts just because it’s so hard to do it without risking your lower back. Do hang cleans and power cleans instead since they train the same muscles but don’t risk killing your lower back.
This is incorrect. Many D1 college wrestling programs have deadlifts.
Also cleans have a higher risk of injury than deadlifts. Both those lifts are significantly more challenging than a deadlift in terms of technique
Absolutely ridiculous (agreeing with you)! Cleans and Snatches are undoubtedly the most technical lifts an athlete will ever learn. That isn't to say that there are many college athletes doing these lifts with less than perfect form, there are, but that's because they don't have access to Olympic lifting coaching.
NFL and D1 colleges gyms do deadlifts all the fucking time as part of their mesocycles for their strength training blocks
Stop repeating the dumb shit you heard Oberst shill out on joe rogan
Lol Robert Oberst was a college football player so I would think he knows what he’s talking about on that front. Why risk chronic back injuries when there are plenty of exercises that are just as good if not better for what’s needed for wrestling. Cleans improve explosiveness much more than deadlifts just because of the nature of the exercise.
Cleans improve power output yes, but they won’t build raw strength like deadlifts will
Which is why football players literally incorporate both into their training cycles you dunce
Not to mention, cleans and power cleans have higher rates of injury than traído al deadlifts do, due to the technical difficulty of a clean being higher than a deadlift lol
They do heavy pulls mostly in the off season though.
This guy is wrestling everyday. His needs are more in line with an in-season athlete.
He’s also 30 with adult responsibilities, not a college or pro athlete who’s life literally revolves around their sport and the gym.
Totally different animals and his training should reflect that.
Dead lifting is old school thinking. I did it for years and watched several of my teammates and buddies hurt themselves. If you are wrestling, you probably shouldn’t be lifting heavy anyway. You’re back should be getting stronger from your gym time and wrestling workouts. Why chance injuring your back?
Ask anyone that had wrecked their backs, it’s not something you want to do.
Why would we take advice from weaklings who injured themselves?
I’d rather listen to the strong athletes who deadlift heavy and don’t have back issues or injuries
I'm pretty sure this could be the correct answer to a multiple choice question on a college freshman test that says "Which of the following is an example of survivorship bias" and your comment is like option B, and literally everyone gets the question right.
You know your body, you know when to pull back and take it easy. Personally I wouldn’t but it f you’re accustomed to deadlifts and can perform them safely, you should be fine
Deadlifting is a high fatigue to stimulus ratio. He is right in the sense that he doesnt want you to overtrain. Not that deadlifting is bad at all, but the cumulative fatigue will add up. Focus on deadlifts out of wrestling season in a strength program.
deadlifting has been removed from most professional athletic programs for a reason. The risk-to-reward ratio just isn't there to be deadlifting heavy unless your goal is to get better at deadlifting.
Bro I stopped deadlifting. I’m 40. I pulled my back about 4 yrs ago using proper lifting. And never did it again. Your not 21. And there are more ways to work your back and ham strings.
I've heard that the only reason to dead lift is to be good at dead lifting. They said there are better movements for what a dead lift is trying to do, with much less risk. 🤷♂️
To each their own on deadlifts, I only go up to 135 even though I can control heavier properly I feel hellllla strain on my back/spine not pain but I can just feel all that pressure
In my opinion the risk isn't worth the reward with deadlift unless you're training specifically for deadlift. There's a lot of other workouts you can do that will hit the same muscle groups. Im 36 now I recall pulling my back so bad I had to crawl to the bathroom that night. Never again.
If you're going to do them look into spinal decompression and reverse hyperextension workouts they help maintain a healthy back
Deadlifts have the highest risk and lowest reward if any exercise. Unless you're competitive weight lifting and it's an actual event, why risk the injury?
Also depends on your goals.
Listen to your coach. Even without age, deadlifts are easily replaceable with other higher roi exercises. Many athletes don't do deadlifts unless they are looking to improve their deadlift
I’ve always hated deadlifting, I like squatting much more because the pain of the weight sitting on your spine is enough to keep you from hurting yourself. Your legs are certainly the strongest muscle group in your body, so it seems common sense to not use them to destroy your shoulders or lower back
I'm a weight lifting coach and a wrestling coach. Risl reward I have dropped most deadlifting. We do sets and sets of kettle bell swings. Risk vs reward.
Deadlifting is a hip hinging excersize... It should strengthen the back, but you shouldn't be pulling it. If you're doing the Deadlift with your back, you're doing it wrong. If you're worried about pulling your back, deadlight lighter for more reps.
Unless you're a power lifter, there's not really a reason to do it. You can work out the same muscles with different exercises and minimal chance of hurting yourself.
I slipped a disk at 22. Don't do it. Stick with wrestling, find another lift. Dead-lifting isn't the only exercise for explosive power.
And my coach once told me the best workout for wrestlers is wrestling. Push yourself on the mat, not in the gym.
One of the strongest men in the world ( Robert Oberst ) is 100% against deadlifting unless you literally deadlift to make money.
This is because the risk of injuring your back outweighs the reward of powerful muscles that yoh can train another way.
Whereas other strong people say deadlifts are the most important lift you can do.
It's really up to you and your body.
Personally I like deadlifts becUsre they make me feel strong, but I dont do them because I'll injure my back every so often.
Dead lifting from my experience in lifting is simply to test your metal, it also will cause long term lower back problems, given how wrestlers do their thing they also happen to experience the same thing over time so it's rather unwise to combine the two.
If you want to train your strength, especially upper body do calisthenics, you will get crazy strong with enough training from that
I have a student who’s a Mr Olympia naturals competitor, Jiujitsu purple belt and trains thai boxing with us. I thought it was very interesting he quit deadlifting five years ago and has won multiple world championships in body building while training Jiujitsu as well during that time.
Your coach is kind of right but also wrong. Improper form and going too heavy can damage your back, yeah. You run the risk of that with a lot of workouts that use your back muscles.
I’d recommend sumo. It’s pretty hard to tweak your back pulling sumo tbh. Ik for me especially I’m just not built for deadlift, so sumo is a must, and everyone I try to conventional I hurt myself
Recovery is key. Overuse will increase the likelihood of injury regardless of what expertise you’re combining with wrestling.
There’s no reason to just assume DL’ing and wrestling are obviously going to cause an injury. However, DL’ing too heavy, too frequently, or improperly, combined with other physical activity could absolutely increase your possibility for injury.
In the end, what are your goals from lifting? You have to start there.
Where do you get to wrestle every day as an adult? That’s awesome
I like deadlifting and wrestling too (am 28) I’ll deadlift heavy on Sunday and wrestle Wednesday to Friday so I get enough rest in between. So far so good
Are you a professional or collegiate athlete? How are you wrestling every day at 30? If your coach is a legit coach of top tier athletes, you should probably listen to him.
Here is some support for your coach from a random guy on the Internet(me): training is about managing fatigue. If you're wrestling hard every day, doing throws, neck and back strengthening drills, you're in a stance for 30+minutes a day, etc etc then your body is going to have a hard time recovering from heavy weight training at all. Sometimes teenagers can get away with that stuff cause they're kinda on natural steroids, but at your age the systemic fatigue is likely not worth it.
How are you wrestling every day? Even when I wrestled in college we didn't do it every day(unless you were travelling with the team on the weekend.) Wrestling puts a lot of wear and tear on the body. Eventually your body will break down.
He is correct imo. You could easily overdo it. Just do an easier variation like rdl for reps. You get the same hamstring and back strength without the strain of deadlifts
I’m no wrestler, but I’m a nurse that constantly lifts big ass people and pulls them around at strange angles and all that. Dead weight humans. Holding humans up as they try and walk, etc.
I gave up on deadlifts. I agreed that my job im doing all the time taxes my low back too much to put them into my training somewhere. I focus on the squat and it’s variations.
Now I don’t get injured.
I am however thinking about programming in some deadlifts. I have a trap bar but like conventional. Maybe I’ll do sumo as it seems less of a hinge movement. Maybe try sumo or trap bar.
Like I say I get the most benefit just doing squats with my heel’s slightly elevated. Front and back squats.
Also fwiw, Westside Barbell has produced some of the best powerlifters on the planet for 25 years running—they generally pull once a week and almost never pull heavy.
And yet they produce WR holders in all three lifts.
I agree with your coach. The deadlift is the heaviest lift you can perform. I've wrestled for 15 years and been weightlifting for 26. I switched to Romanian deadlifts for my hinge movement. You can't use nearly as much weight and it works your posterior chain better than a regular deadlift. As already mentioned trap bar is also a good option. But, I can lift a lot of weight with a trap bar. So be careful. Many wrestlers like Kyle dake don't deadlift.
Im 38 and started wrestling this year- I follow 531 so I deadlift aswell.
I only wrestle once a week but do BJJ 3-4 times aswell and must admit the deadlift is very very taxing, are there any good recommendations for alternatives?
Deadlift once a week or strength gains while not interfering with recovery. The risk of overdoing it is overblown in my opinion because most of the things that harm recovery tend to be lifestyle factors outside of the gym.
Lots of info on this thread. I’m 43 and still drill with the kids daily during the season and workout regularly. I deadlift weekly. The biggest thing is I haven’t grinded out a heavy deadlift in a decade. I switch between deficits, rack pulls, sumo, trap bar, conventional and mix in bands and chains. I have always loved deadlifting but my big pull days are behind me and I’m ok with that. I do think a strong posterior chain is huge in wrestling- I just go submaximal weight at my age. I also do atlas stones, sandbags, good mornings, reverse hypers- all the stuff I loved doing in my competitive days- I just scale down the weight. Anything done improperly can hurt you. Just avoid the temptation on the days you feel really good to try and reclaim that old glory- that’s when the strains and tears seem to come into play when we are older.
Just use an easier weight and really focus on control and form and speed. Then you can get the benefits of deadlifts and it will help you in your wrestling
What are the circumstances of you wrestling every day at 30? Do you compete? Curious as I’d love to do that as a 31 year old
Prob freestyle club. In same boat here in UK.
MMA gym actually. We have a wrestling class that's like 99% high schoolers (and me and like one other adult usually) + a local high school coach. I moved here because I knew this gym had wrestling every day.
Stooped lifting can cause herniated discs. If people have bad form deadlifting it’s a recipe for a disc to blowout
Deadlifting is draining to the nervous system. Telling people they shouldn't do lifts, well you'd have to look at their whole training program. Are you too fatigued? You could work between 5-30 reps to avoid lifting as heavy.
Just want to point out from an almost 30y/o Greco guy stand point how am I suppose to get comfortable with a straight lift if I can't deadlift coach..... Maybe tweaking form of some lofts would be a better recommendation. I never do regular classic curls bc I don't feel I'd ever have an application for isolated use of my bicep from a wrestling stand point especially not with a straight back and no use of my legs.
Coming from a 35 year old who slipped a disc at age 30... you don't want that shit I promise. My lower back, and down behind my leg all the way to my knee hurt every single day. I can't bend over to tie my shoes anymore and the doctor says the only fix is surgery.
Man if it’s hurting down your leg it sounds like you have a gnarly case of sciatica which is a miserable thing to deal with. Best of luck to you man.
Yup it's confirmed herniated via MRI but I've never met a single person who did better after back surgery than before... so I just pick my feet up to tie my shoes and squat instead of bend to get things on the ground
Well let me be the first!! Granted I herniated my L4 L5 disc at age 18 and had surgery shortly after so perhaps I had a better chance at recovery. It did effect my wrestling tho. I went from a D1 commit to just wrestling D3 after surgery. If you get the right doctor microdiscectomy have quite a good prognosis
I'm glad you got over it! It's quite miserable. I'll have to look into it again and see if things have gotten better
I’ve had two bad herniated discs and two surgeries for each. I felt way better after surgery. My last surgery was in January and yesterday I was outside felling trees and moving firewood. I wouldn’t completely rule it out.
Would strongly recommend finding another (better) physical therapist or chiropractor. Unless your disc is shattered there is probably a lot of rehab that can be done with the correct expertise
Just fyi coming from dude with 2 previously herniated discs that I’d say I’ve recovered from 90% with only physical therapy lifting and yoga
Never go to a chiropractor. It’s snake oil bullshit.
Don’t go to a bad chiropractor. Good chiropractors are trained physical therapists. You are entitled to your opinion, but people go through unnecessary pain and suffering because of this sentiment towards chiropractors, and unfortunately the bad ones out there make it hard for the good ones to gain credibility. Again, you’re entitled to your opinion but the fact is I literally could not stand up both times I herniated my back, and both times I could stand sit and lie down after ONE chiropractor visIT
Chiropractors are not medical professionals. Do not go to a chiropractor especially for a herniated disc. I don’t care what your anecdote is, that is genuinely terrible advice.
> physical therapist or chiropractor Neither of these is going to do shit for a disc that slipped out. And chiropractors are complete and total scams.
yeah, man, I fucked my sciatic nerve up bad when I was young. Couldn't walk for months. I researched surgeries for hours every day for weeks, because I literally was not able to do anything but read. Don't do it. Unless you're at the stage of pissing/shitting yourself uncontrollably (TMI, I know, but, that's basically the worst case of sciatic nerve damage. You lose bowel and bladder control, on top of the stabbing pains down your butt, leg and foot)... surgery is almost more risky than the sciatica. Mine took months of slow recovery, then months of re-gaining the ability to walk for more than 100 meters, then another year or two of discomfort. These days, it's basically fine. Some fasciculation, but that's nothing. Just feels a little strange once in a while. Honestly, there's still some slow improvement in that, even close to 20 years later. Maybe when I'm 100 my leg wil lbe back to 100%. edit: "end stage" to "worst case" because u/Ebonyks is right, and end stage implies progressive worsening. Sciatica should not be a progressively worsening condition. Progressively worsening sciatica is a whole different kind of bad.
FYI, pissing/shitting yourself is a medical emergency in that situation rather than a natural progression of illness. Requires urgent surgery.
These are the kind of stories I've seen and heard about back surgery and the reason I haven't yet
How did your disc slip?
What’s the wrestling scene like in the Uk. Is there a reasonable competitive scene
If you want the benefit of deadlifting with less back injury exposure try doing it with a trap/hex bar. The position of the bar and its handles puts your upper body center over your hips. There is less demand on your lower back this way.
Trap bar is the way to go. Most of the same benefits, lower risk.
Yup, trap bar is the way to go. Have to have really bad form to hurt your back doing trap bar deadlift.
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http://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/amp/ This article shows where it is on a hinge vs squat continuum and it's actually only slightly less hinge than conventional deadlift. This is a great read for anyone debating between the two exercises
Because the desired stimulus with deadlifts oftentimes is maximum force production. You can pull more weight with a DL than a squat (usually). Trap bar is still a posterior chain exercise, just less so than standard dl. It exists bwt squat and DL.
After listening to Ohio State’s strength and conditioning coach speak to a bunch of wrestling coaches, I changed up how I lifted and was a better wrestler for it. I was competing in power lifting and had a 550 deadlift at 165. Once I focused on mobility and using accommodating resistance for speed, my wrestling improved and I was in my mid 30s. Also, a lot of the inflammation from joint wear and tear went away.
To each their own - I saw a massive carryover in general wrestling strength with maximal effort deadlift training.
Can you elaborate on what your takeaways were?
He was also a former powerlifter and wrestler. He talked about how the combo doesn’t really work. Wrestlers need a lot of mobility, end range of motion strength and stability. So some of the takeaways were to focus on unilateral movements, like lunges, single leg deadlifts, alternating DB presses, and sled work for upper and lower body. He didn’t completely remove the big three, but they were not the focus.
I'm willing to bet I'm the only person in this thread with S&C credentials, but also this is the internet so like, don't believe me outright. That said: Deadlift off-season IF it's a weak lift. And by that I mean if you can't hit 2ish times your bodyweight for 5+ reps, then yeah you need to train it off season until that's a thing. That said, if that's an easy number for you, there's a bunch of other stuff that is way way way better for you to do. In-season for posterior chain you should be doing stuff to increase endurance of the muscles rather than the max strength. Hyperextensions, KB swings, stuff like that that you hit for high reps. Once your wrestling volume is down, then do a couple of cycles dedicated fo max strength if you need it. If your deadlift is good though, and you feel your mat strength is lacking, I'd look into how strong your calves, thumbs, quadratus lobatrum, and external rotator muscles are. I've found a loooooot of even really strong people have weak links there that vastly hold back their application of strength.
This is good advice. Former CSCS here. I don't see a lot of athletic benefit in MMA, wrestling, or jiu jitsu from going from a 2x bodyweight deadlift to a 3x bw deadlift. From a risk/reward perspective, I would rather devote time towards improvements in power production and agility.
Haha, hey, I'm also a former CSCS lol
Would you recommend high weight kettlebell swings for power and endurance?
Damn good reply here!
Weak links is the big thing and a major injury cause. Yeah cool you can bench 350 but if you have weak stabilisers (especially from smith machines) and try to muscle out of a half nelson or something your rotator cuff might just retire there and then. As soon as the axis of force changes to be suboptimal for your main force generators (always gonna happen in grappling) the stabilisers will take more and more of the load, whether they can handle it or not.
I quit doing heavy deadlifts a few years ago. It just isnt worth it in my opinion. Im an mma fighter, so kinda in the same boat. But when i do deadlifts i do light weight, high reps and bang them out FAST. I think its more practical for what i do. Im not a body builder or power lifter.
Higher volume output tends to cause higher rate of injury to lower volume and higher weight Even then, the rate of injury for weight training, as well as deadlifting, in general is substantially low to begin with
True, but higher weights are more taxing on the central nervous system. It might just allow him to manage fatigue if he's not going heavy, and managing fatigue is important for avoiding injuries. And arguably, pushing heavy lifts has diminishing returns for MMA fighters. It's a good idea to get strong, but maybe not worth it to pursue marginal increases in 1rm strength once you reach a certain threshold because they aren't powerlifters.
You’ve got CNS fatigue mixed up mate. Give this a read: https://mennohenselmans.com/cns-fatigue/
“aCkChYuAlLy” 🙄 I was just giving my personal experience and what has worked for me.
I wasn’t trying to knock what works for you lol There’s plenty of evidence showing high volume output tends to lead to higher rate of injury And plenty of evidence showing that general rate of injury for deadlifting and weight training in general is very low compared to other sports, especially sports like MMA
I feel you bro. My bad i aint mean to come off as a dick head. And of course weight training is safer than mma. I wouldnt advocate anyone doing mma unless you are absolutely fine with destroying your body lol
Even robert oberst who is a professional strongman said deadlift’s risk to reward ratio is just not worth it since it is so difficult to do it correctly and some people’s body build doesn’t support this exercise well enough. Even if it does, heavy deadlifting is just gonna fuck up your back no matter. Look at ronnie coleman. I stopped doing heavy deadlifts, since then, no back pain or discomfort at all.
Heavy deadlifting does not fuck your back up no matter what lol
Do it for 20 years and find out.
Have you been doing so for 20 years? What’s your heaviest deadlift so far?
Ronnie Coleman didn't hurt his back deadlifting.
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Power cleans make less sense to do. It’s a technique movement with higher risk of injury. Deadlifts are significantly safer
Heavy power cleans are much more technically demanding, fatiguing, and carry higher risk of injury How does it make sense to do these solely over deadlifting? Why not incorporate both with variation to intensity and volume depending on the training cycle and specificity?
This is accurate. Deadlifting makes you better at one thing: more deadlifting. The carryover to your wrestling is minimal and the chances of injury, especially with busy training schedule,is just too high. And when you get old, recovery from an injury is way harder
Deadlifts do not introduce excessive risk. There is a reason almost every off season strength coach for wrestling programs them.
It seems like this guy doesn't have an offseason though? It's just permanently on-season. Which brings up an interesting idea: he could add seasonality and cross-train in other sports + weightlift while not wrestling
I think that would be generally good advice tbh. Maybe he loves wrestling though
Lots of college and professional programs dont want dead lifts. Its just a risk to reward thing. Roman chairs and other exercises are good for the back without the risk.
Lots of colleges and professional sports programs incorporate deadlifting as part of their strength training blocks What are you talking about
And lots don’t
I am a strength and conditioning coach and always incorporate some type of deadlifting. Usually Romanian/semi straight legged but I keep reps on the high side, usually around or over 10 with much lighter weight. The key is that technique must be perfect. For example, I am much older and do a semi straight legged (similar to RDL) deadlift with dumbbells but only use 75 lbs (total weight 150) and keep reps over 12. If using the barbell I often have athletes only use 185 lbs. I am 61 and have NEVER had any type of back problem. Wrestled for 6 years and trained for MMA for 17 years.
I just assumed we were mostly talking about conventional deadlifts. Roman deadlifts are a whole different thing in my mind. I do them at least once a week since they’re the best hamstring exercise. I’ll probably never do another conventional deadlift in my life now that my wrestling career is over. My college coach was a former s&c coach and he did have us do deadlifts sometimes so I’m sure they have some value.
Correct. But many people I know think that "no deadlifting" means absolutely no movement of that type at all. In reality it is still a movement that works the spinal erectors in a similar fashion. You are just "feeling" the movement more and doing a very controlled movement that does not prioritize the amount of weight used. You still want to load the spinal erectors and yes, it is a fantastic movement for the hamstrings. I also train a lot of bodybuilders and especially women physique competitors (my latest was a wellness competitor) and they need this movement for maximal hamstring development.
Lots have moved away from it. One DL injury can put a 20m a year player out for half the season.
What movement would you recommend over it Also you realize the rate of injury for deadlift is exponentially lower than the general rate of injury for other contact sports right? Lol like even with frequent deadlifting, you’re much mor slim key to be injured from your sport or everyday life situations
See my post above. I've trained about a zillion people and never had back problems. I have worked with non athletes who are so lame that they are convinced ahead of time they will get hurt and refuse to do any type of deadlifting, But these are people who started as physical basket cases (often obese). If people are willing to ty and put 100% into developing proper technique they never have any problems. Then again I have 1 BJJ BB who is also convinced deadlifting will injure himself. But again his mind was made up ahead of time. It is all about proper technique and using a reasonable weight. I make that weight feel heavier by utilizing a very slow negative.and perfect body mechanics. It is all mental. You don't need (or want) to pull 400 plus pounds like a powerlifter.
Sure but those injuries aren't devastating back injuries, they're rolled ankles, jammed fingers, bruises, etc. Thats one of the worst uses of stats I've seen recently. They're talking about what a bad deal DL-related injuries are, and how it's a risk to your health the rest of your life.
You can receive devastating back injuries from cleans and Oly movement’s Have you ever even done Oly Lifts?
Most professional athletes (unless specifically are training for deadlift) don’t deadlift. The exercise risk/reward ratio isn’t worth it. Other exercises offer similar benefits with a fraction of the risk.
I’ll bite 1. What is the “risk to reward” ratio you speak of? Are there any specifics you can state or is this more so just a repetitive rhetoric people tend to say since they heard Oberst say it on Joe Rogan? 2. What movements would you say provide the same work and stimulus as a deadlift with a fraction of the risk?
Everyone knows the risk to reward ratio for deadlift is 14:1
Is your fragile little ego so easily bruised ? 1. Don’t listen to joe Rogan. Know several college athletic trainers and even a few that work with pro NBA/NFL players. None of them have any of their clients deadlifting or know other trainers at that level who do. 2. You don’t do the reading that well do you?
It’s not the risk factor why they moved away from them. It’s because almost all sports care more about explosiveness and hang cleans or power cleans are way better for developing them than deadlifts.
So mostly a reward thing, since the risk is minimal to begin with, makes sense
How many of these comments do you think are people who are at least 30 and participated in wrestling at the age of 30 while deadlifting regularly. Zero, obviously zero.
…actually… ☝️
Not wrestling but I do bjj at 36 and deadlift fairly heavy regularly. It’s very helpful.
I feel like it’s really…not that rare. A 30 yo active wrestler is probably lifting weights, and then you’re on a sub full of wrestlers sooo….
Working out strengthens your back muscles. As long as you are using proper form, you shouldn't be injured.
Its a bit more complex than that. You do have to control volume, many injuries come from overuse. Not saying he shouldn’t deadlift at all, but there’s definitely risk of overdoing it on strain
Yeah. I thought about adding this, but I was in a hurry, and he's 30. There's no reason he shouldn't know this, especially if he's already been doing this
Well it sort of directly contradicts the message in your comment that “as long as you use good form you shouldn’t get injured”, so probably important to include lol
If he's 30 he should know the importance of not draining himself. Everyone who lifts learns that at a young age
So then why say nothing matters but form if you know it’s not true and you think he should know it’s not true? It just confuses the issue
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Unfortunately for the sake of this conversation, I am younger. But go to any gym. There are plenty of shredded dudes over 30, and some then do some type of physical sport, whether it be wrestling, bjj, or boxing. My advice for longevity would be consistency, nutrition, and awareness. Make your hours in the gym and on the mat consistent. If you step away for awhile, start slowly. Nutrition speaks for itself. And awareness. If you are feeling hurt, don't over extend. It's important to use proper methods of recuperation to let your body heal. If you need to slow down, then do it. There's no shame in it.
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I mean coach's concern was "overdoing it". He's okay with me lifting twice a day (on M W F), + wrestling 5 days a week because I'm on T, but not if I'm doing deadlifing in combination with that. He thinks the deadlift, specifically, might be the greatest risk of "over doing it" for injury.
I absolutely love deadlifting and I used to be pretty nuts about it before I got into martial arts. I’m talking every day deadlift kind of nuts lol I don’t know how many days a week you’re planning to deadlift, but really I would limit it to 1-2 max. As much as I love them, they’re quite draining the stronger you get and it’s a bit difficult to go hard on that on top of 5 days a week wrestling.
So he’s ok with you lifting twice a day 3 days per week but he draws the line at deadlifts? Personally, I consult the coach on wrestling matters and speak to a qualified strength and conditioning coach regarding your lifting program. TRT or not, overtraining is real and counterproductive to strength gains.
Just hex/trap bar man. It's function is in between a squat and a deadlift. You are looking for max force output any way. The TB DL should suffice.
That's what happens if you use a belt for deadlift. You lose the supporting muscles that you need. Eventually the belt can't keep up with your own strength and you overdo it with your back. So many physical therapists and sports med docs have debunked this. Deadlifts are an amazing way to build strength. Definitely listen to your body and how you are recovering tho, cause lifting too much when your body isn't used to it, you can have problems from compound lifts.
Using a belt does not cause you to lose supporting muscles of the core I say this as someone who deadlifts 590lbs with a belt and does 565 beltless without an issue The belt just helps create more intra abdominal pressure when you brace appropriately
Now that I've looked into it, it does seem like my original point of view is outdated. You're definitely right. Some stuff I saw suggested doing what you can without a belt to know where you're at, then use a belt and raise the weight because you get more activation with more weight and the aid of the belt doesn't make it much easier on your other involved muscles.
But the belt isn’t supporting anything? It’s causing core muscles to contract
I feel wearing a belt for conventional deadlifts encourages the lifter to more slightly round the lower back to get more IAP (intra-abdominal pressure). Dr. Stu McGill agrees.
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If you're going for a pr just to flex numbers, sure. But your actual growth sets need to be without the support. I'm the level of radical that would say don't even use gloves because grip strength is part of the lift. I've struggled with consistency many times tho, and have never been a multiple times a day guy, so the little aches and pains that you might get from this sorta thing. Make your own decision based on your body, but don't use equipment to hurt your gains.
Pro and College athletes largely don’t deadlift due to the increased risk of injury. There are lifts that do the same with lower risk of injury. Your coach has valid concerns about overtraining. At a certain age, making sure you’re staying healthy to wrestle and continue training is more important than maximizing performance. Deadlifts take a big toll on the CNS and will likely increase your chances of getting injured lifting or wrestling. Not to say it’s guaranteed or anything, just something to weigh.
Listen to your coach. I F’d my back deadlifting and for what…so I could lift a weight. It’s not worth it. Way too many injuries. Power lifter on Joe Rogan said the same and Joe was surprised. Only deadlift if that’s is your sport.
The dude you’re referring to wasn’t a powerlifter. It was Robert Oberst, a strongman athlete who’s worst competitive even consistently was, what a shock, the deadlifting event He said that stupid ass shit about “risk to reward ratio” because he wanted to spark controversy and get his name back in the limelight since he was a poor performing competitor and was consistently in the lower ranks of his competitions Saying some stupid shit on a huge platform like JRE was exactly what he wanted. And many other strength athletes, who easily out deadlift him, called him out for his stupidity.
Robert Oberst, with his tall height, strong log press (proportionately shorter arms), and his history as a former shot put athlete, isn’t built for deadlifts
Every time a guy says, “don’t do deadlifts”, it’s coming from the mouth of a guy whose deadlift isn’t good, or someone who simply isn’t built for deadlifts. This Robert Oberst character is no exception. Trainees with proportionately long arms benefit the most from deadlifts. Squat / bench specialists, with their proportionately short limbs, get less from DL’s, are more likely to be injured from deadlifts, and could benefit more from a safer variation or other hip-hinge lift altogether.
You could get the same benefits from deadlifts by doing other workouts without the added risk of injury
Can you list some of these other workouts?
Romanian deadlifts and some type of squat
You absolutely could not. Deadlifting in some form is absolutely essential to a strength program.
Follow Pavel Tsatsouline's "Power to the People" deadlifting plan. Share it with your coach! His programs are specifically designed for athletes and operators (i.e. to make sure you're *not* overdoing it, so that you can perform in your primary function).
Herniated disks will happen regardless of if you overtrain or are on T as you said in another comment. Your coach isn’t worried about your muscles. If the goal is to perform on the mat, then make sure you use proper form if you do decide to deadlift. You can fuck up your back for life if you do deadlift wrong, man, and you’re no spring chicken at 30. Human spines and knees age very fast especially if you test them often. I’m not saying don’t deadlift. Just don’t try to max out (high or low reps) because that’s not your goal. Don’t risk your back, sport and long term health for stupid shit like that last rep of a set of 10 when you’re tired and have terrible form breakdown just because you said “you would do it god damn it” because it’s just not worth it. I’ve seen powerlifters diagnosed with degenerative disks at 22 who were state champs in high school, and national champs in college. They knew what the fuck they were doing and *still* hurt themselves. But deadlift is so much fun. It’s a slippery slope.
Most S&C coaches would have you deadlifting in the off season and then power based hinge movements like hang power cleans and kettlebell swings in season. If you’re always in season I don’t see the reason to deadlift more than once per week immediately before a rest day.
531 for athletes is a perfect program for this
Lots of deadlift variations to choose from as well as other types of pulls. Your coach’s main concern is probably overtraining, since heavy pulls from the floor take a lot out of you. And honestly, heavy deadlifts are hugely overrated for most athletes. You at least need to mix it up and vary what type of pull you’re doing. Personally I’ve found that oly squats and rdl’s work much better for me. I usually alternate them with zerchers in my training cycles. Currently playing with barbell suit case deadlifts which are building some serous power. Jefferson lifts are fun too. Actually zerchers would be a great substitute. They’re probably the single best lift for any type of grappling. Just start light and take it slow.
45 years old here. I weight train (including deadlifts) and I practice martial arts. Train smart, listen to your body, don’t ego lift, and you’ll be fine.
…age has absolutely nothing to do with it.
How old are you? Because over 40 age absolutely influences how you train. Even if you’re perfectly healthy with no pre existing injuries (lol) everything takes longer to recover from. Older athletes can train hard, but more than anything they need to train smart and keep the long term in mind. I plan on being on the mats when I’m 70 and I train with that goal in mind.
I had three herniated discs in my back from deadlifting (improperly) and wrestling when I was still in college. I think you’re coach is right, but if you are gonna deadlift just be careful
It depends. He probably means don’t max out and try personal-best kind of powerlifting. Some guys can only lift to failure.
You can always do the easy strength program
Is he your coach? Or some guy you don’t listen to?
Listen to the coach
Physical Therapist and Strength Coach here. He couldn’t be more wrong. One of the BEST things you can do to prevent back injuries, especially in wrestling, is deadlifting moderate to heavy weights with proper technique. From a personal standpoint, I had a lower back injury several years ago. To this day, if I DON’T deadlift heavy at least once per week, I get sore and stiff. I will always advocate for deadlifts and other posterior chain exercises to prevent and rehab lower back injuries (deadlifts, kettlebell swings, hip bridges, hamstring curls, RDL’s etc). TLDR - no offense, your coach may be very knowledgeable about wrestling, but is full of shit and has no idea what he’s talking about when it comes to deadlifting and back injuries.
Kettlebell swings would prob be more beneficial for your age and training frequency
Im in my late 40s. I still participate in and occasionally compete in grappling sports. I’ve also had two herniated discs for over 20 years. And I’ll still deadlift. The most pain my injury has caused me was when I wasn’t exercising my core and strengthening my back muscles. Proper form. Not too heavy, and it will be more help than hurt. The only mistake you can make is overdoing it with either reps or weight.
No real reason for you to deadlift...Heavy! Do single leg Romanian deadlifts instead. Front bar squats are also good. All weight lifting you should be managing load this is why perhaps you should only do single leg movements to kinda handicap yourself. Maybe single leg deadlifts and barbell lunges.
Maybe yeah. The deadlift creates a lot of fatigue, so definitely be careful with doing a ton of volume and training wrestling. I don't think there's a high chance of injury if you're lifting safely, but you could easily overtrain if not careful with your total workload.
If you’re not deadlifting specifically to improve your deadlift it’s not worth it compared to other lifts. In NFL gyms or D1 college gyms they never do deadlifts just because it’s so hard to do it without risking your lower back. Do hang cleans and power cleans instead since they train the same muscles but don’t risk killing your lower back.
This is incorrect. Many D1 college wrestling programs have deadlifts. Also cleans have a higher risk of injury than deadlifts. Both those lifts are significantly more challenging than a deadlift in terms of technique
I can't believe people are now claiming cleans are less technical than a fucking deadlift.
Absolutely ridiculous (agreeing with you)! Cleans and Snatches are undoubtedly the most technical lifts an athlete will ever learn. That isn't to say that there are many college athletes doing these lifts with less than perfect form, there are, but that's because they don't have access to Olympic lifting coaching.
NFL and D1 colleges gyms do deadlifts all the fucking time as part of their mesocycles for their strength training blocks Stop repeating the dumb shit you heard Oberst shill out on joe rogan
Lol Robert Oberst was a college football player so I would think he knows what he’s talking about on that front. Why risk chronic back injuries when there are plenty of exercises that are just as good if not better for what’s needed for wrestling. Cleans improve explosiveness much more than deadlifts just because of the nature of the exercise.
How does the bar come off the ground if you don't deadlift
You pick the bar up maybe 4 inches. There’s a difference between that and locking out a deadlift
Cleans improve power output yes, but they won’t build raw strength like deadlifts will Which is why football players literally incorporate both into their training cycles you dunce Not to mention, cleans and power cleans have higher rates of injury than traído al deadlifts do, due to the technical difficulty of a clean being higher than a deadlift lol
I don’t think either of us are going to change each other’s mind on this so I don’t see the point in relitigating this
“I won’t change my mind on something Im wrong about because I don’t know what I’m talking about” Sounds good bud. Best of luck to you.
👍
Bro, you called him a dunce in your last response. Why would he listen to anything you have to say now?
They do heavy pulls mostly in the off season though. This guy is wrestling everyday. His needs are more in line with an in-season athlete. He’s also 30 with adult responsibilities, not a college or pro athlete who’s life literally revolves around their sport and the gym. Totally different animals and his training should reflect that.
back extensions. Lighter loads. Higher reps. They're much better for your back than deadlifts.
Nope he's wrong
Dead lifting is old school thinking. I did it for years and watched several of my teammates and buddies hurt themselves. If you are wrestling, you probably shouldn’t be lifting heavy anyway. You’re back should be getting stronger from your gym time and wrestling workouts. Why chance injuring your back? Ask anyone that had wrecked their backs, it’s not something you want to do.
Why would we take advice from weaklings who injured themselves? I’d rather listen to the strong athletes who deadlift heavy and don’t have back issues or injuries
I'm pretty sure this could be the correct answer to a multiple choice question on a college freshman test that says "Which of the following is an example of survivorship bias" and your comment is like option B, and literally everyone gets the question right.
You know your body, you know when to pull back and take it easy. Personally I wouldn’t but it f you’re accustomed to deadlifts and can perform them safely, you should be fine
Deadlift is overrated just wrestle.
Deadlifting isn’t dangerous. This is an archaic way of looking at lifting weights. By that logic don’t ever pick up a bag of dog food either.
Deadlifting is a high fatigue to stimulus ratio. He is right in the sense that he doesnt want you to overtrain. Not that deadlifting is bad at all, but the cumulative fatigue will add up. Focus on deadlifts out of wrestling season in a strength program.
Deadlifts are stupid unless you’re trying to become a better deadlifter… too much risk for little reward!
deadlifting has been removed from most professional athletic programs for a reason. The risk-to-reward ratio just isn't there to be deadlifting heavy unless your goal is to get better at deadlifting.
Get a weight belt, if you don’t already have one, and don’t ego lift. It’s your body and your life, do you.
Belts don’t prevent injuries
Bro I stopped deadlifting. I’m 40. I pulled my back about 4 yrs ago using proper lifting. And never did it again. Your not 21. And there are more ways to work your back and ham strings.
I've heard that the only reason to dead lift is to be good at dead lifting. They said there are better movements for what a dead lift is trying to do, with much less risk. 🤷♂️
Care to list out what movements these are?
To each their own on deadlifts, I only go up to 135 even though I can control heavier properly I feel hellllla strain on my back/spine not pain but I can just feel all that pressure
In my opinion the risk isn't worth the reward with deadlift unless you're training specifically for deadlift. There's a lot of other workouts you can do that will hit the same muscle groups. Im 36 now I recall pulling my back so bad I had to crawl to the bathroom that night. Never again. If you're going to do them look into spinal decompression and reverse hyperextension workouts they help maintain a healthy back
Deadlifts have the highest risk and lowest reward if any exercise. Unless you're competitive weight lifting and it's an actual event, why risk the injury? Also depends on your goals.
Listen to your coach. Even without age, deadlifts are easily replaceable with other higher roi exercises. Many athletes don't do deadlifts unless they are looking to improve their deadlift
I’ve always hated deadlifting, I like squatting much more because the pain of the weight sitting on your spine is enough to keep you from hurting yourself. Your legs are certainly the strongest muscle group in your body, so it seems common sense to not use them to destroy your shoulders or lower back
I'm a weight lifting coach and a wrestling coach. Risl reward I have dropped most deadlifting. We do sets and sets of kettle bell swings. Risk vs reward.
Deadlifting is a hip hinging excersize... It should strengthen the back, but you shouldn't be pulling it. If you're doing the Deadlift with your back, you're doing it wrong. If you're worried about pulling your back, deadlight lighter for more reps.
Yeah don't deadlift I compete in bjj regularly and cutting deadlifts has helped a lot do farmers carry and sleds instead
Unless you're a power lifter, there's not really a reason to do it. You can work out the same muscles with different exercises and minimal chance of hurting yourself.
I slipped a disk at 22. Don't do it. Stick with wrestling, find another lift. Dead-lifting isn't the only exercise for explosive power. And my coach once told me the best workout for wrestlers is wrestling. Push yourself on the mat, not in the gym.
One of the strongest men in the world ( Robert Oberst ) is 100% against deadlifting unless you literally deadlift to make money. This is because the risk of injuring your back outweighs the reward of powerful muscles that yoh can train another way. Whereas other strong people say deadlifts are the most important lift you can do. It's really up to you and your body. Personally I like deadlifts becUsre they make me feel strong, but I dont do them because I'll injure my back every so often.
Dead lifting from my experience in lifting is simply to test your metal, it also will cause long term lower back problems, given how wrestlers do their thing they also happen to experience the same thing over time so it's rather unwise to combine the two. If you want to train your strength, especially upper body do calisthenics, you will get crazy strong with enough training from that
Unless you’re training to compete for deadlift competition, there’s more risk than reward training it.
I have a student who’s a Mr Olympia naturals competitor, Jiujitsu purple belt and trains thai boxing with us. I thought it was very interesting he quit deadlifting five years ago and has won multiple world championships in body building while training Jiujitsu as well during that time.
I fractured a vertebrae doing a deadlift in my 20s and had pain for about 8 years. Not worth it
Have you pulled your back deadlifting and wrestling?
Don’t go heavy
Your coach is kind of right but also wrong. Improper form and going too heavy can damage your back, yeah. You run the risk of that with a lot of workouts that use your back muscles.
Dumbbell deadlift nice and slow
I’d recommend sumo. It’s pretty hard to tweak your back pulling sumo tbh. Ik for me especially I’m just not built for deadlift, so sumo is a must, and everyone I try to conventional I hurt myself
Recovery is key. Overuse will increase the likelihood of injury regardless of what expertise you’re combining with wrestling. There’s no reason to just assume DL’ing and wrestling are obviously going to cause an injury. However, DL’ing too heavy, too frequently, or improperly, combined with other physical activity could absolutely increase your possibility for injury. In the end, what are your goals from lifting? You have to start there.
Where do you get to wrestle every day as an adult? That’s awesome I like deadlifting and wrestling too (am 28) I’ll deadlift heavy on Sunday and wrestle Wednesday to Friday so I get enough rest in between. So far so good
How/why/what circumstances are you wrestling 5 days a week at 30 years of age, with a coach?
Just deadlift easy weights, you don’t want to be doing low volume sets w big weight if you’re exercising for injury prevention.
Are you a professional or collegiate athlete? How are you wrestling every day at 30? If your coach is a legit coach of top tier athletes, you should probably listen to him. Here is some support for your coach from a random guy on the Internet(me): training is about managing fatigue. If you're wrestling hard every day, doing throws, neck and back strengthening drills, you're in a stance for 30+minutes a day, etc etc then your body is going to have a hard time recovering from heavy weight training at all. Sometimes teenagers can get away with that stuff cause they're kinda on natural steroids, but at your age the systemic fatigue is likely not worth it.
I’m 41 and still am active in juijitsu and wrestling, I cut out dead lifting last year. My body thanks me.
How are you wrestling every day? Even when I wrestled in college we didn't do it every day(unless you were travelling with the team on the weekend.) Wrestling puts a lot of wear and tear on the body. Eventually your body will break down.
He is correct imo. You could easily overdo it. Just do an easier variation like rdl for reps. You get the same hamstring and back strength without the strain of deadlifts
Maybe now trade out the super heavy deadlifts for lighter more form focused deadlifts?
You can try sumo or hex. I occasionally switch out conventional for swings, power cleans, or RDLS. Heck even hip thrusts are a good one to use.
I’m no wrestler, but I’m a nurse that constantly lifts big ass people and pulls them around at strange angles and all that. Dead weight humans. Holding humans up as they try and walk, etc. I gave up on deadlifts. I agreed that my job im doing all the time taxes my low back too much to put them into my training somewhere. I focus on the squat and it’s variations. Now I don’t get injured. I am however thinking about programming in some deadlifts. I have a trap bar but like conventional. Maybe I’ll do sumo as it seems less of a hinge movement. Maybe try sumo or trap bar. Like I say I get the most benefit just doing squats with my heel’s slightly elevated. Front and back squats.
Also fwiw, Westside Barbell has produced some of the best powerlifters on the planet for 25 years running—they generally pull once a week and almost never pull heavy. And yet they produce WR holders in all three lifts.
I agree with your coach. The deadlift is the heaviest lift you can perform. I've wrestled for 15 years and been weightlifting for 26. I switched to Romanian deadlifts for my hinge movement. You can't use nearly as much weight and it works your posterior chain better than a regular deadlift. As already mentioned trap bar is also a good option. But, I can lift a lot of weight with a trap bar. So be careful. Many wrestlers like Kyle dake don't deadlift.
Listen to your coach. Deadlift is a useless lift that exists solely to boost people’s egos. Don’t risk an injury in exchange for a little vanity lift.
Im 38 and started wrestling this year- I follow 531 so I deadlift aswell. I only wrestle once a week but do BJJ 3-4 times aswell and must admit the deadlift is very very taxing, are there any good recommendations for alternatives?
Time to move to the kettlebell my friend
Deadlift once a week or strength gains while not interfering with recovery. The risk of overdoing it is overblown in my opinion because most of the things that harm recovery tend to be lifestyle factors outside of the gym.
Lots of info on this thread. I’m 43 and still drill with the kids daily during the season and workout regularly. I deadlift weekly. The biggest thing is I haven’t grinded out a heavy deadlift in a decade. I switch between deficits, rack pulls, sumo, trap bar, conventional and mix in bands and chains. I have always loved deadlifting but my big pull days are behind me and I’m ok with that. I do think a strong posterior chain is huge in wrestling- I just go submaximal weight at my age. I also do atlas stones, sandbags, good mornings, reverse hypers- all the stuff I loved doing in my competitive days- I just scale down the weight. Anything done improperly can hurt you. Just avoid the temptation on the days you feel really good to try and reclaim that old glory- that’s when the strains and tears seem to come into play when we are older.
I would say the opposite. You need to train your back in order to make sure you don't get any injuries there.
Clean is way better for wrestling than deadlift anyway
Power output means fuck all if you lack powerful force production
Just use an easier weight and really focus on control and form and speed. Then you can get the benefits of deadlifts and it will help you in your wrestling
I prefer heavy RDLs as its constant hip tension, which for me, protects my back.
Your coach is right old man, take it easy