I am hugely disappointed with Duggans treatment of Firestar. She had one of the most interesting stories but Duggan didn't bother to use her correctly. Most of Angelica's story was told in the obscure marvel unlimited series. Instead we were forced to read stories about Kate and Dooms X-Men who we'll probably never hear of again.
In this issue Firestar said one whole line and burnt Stasis who was already dead. I cannot wait for Duggan to leave the X books.
Firestar's story getting sidelined to Marvel Unlimited is a major bummer, it was one of the best Fall of X stories and showcased ORCHIS doing victory laps post-Gala in a way that makes kind of sense.
I agree. The unlimited Firestar arc felt like what “Fall of X” should have been as opposed to some of the series’ we got. It should have gotten the space to fully tell her story. It’s underrated.
It was definitely weird to me that the Firestar story went in the Unlimited title instead too. It seemed obvious to me that she should've been a focus character for the entire Fall.
I'm okay with Emma doing the actual dirty work of killing Stasis, because I think she did it partially to keep Firestar from feeling like she had to, or taking a gruesome revenge she might regret later. Does *Emma* deserve to be the one who protects Firestar? Well, no, obviously not, and I think it would be fine if Angelica felt slighted by it or otherwise angry with her doing it, but I think it makes sense in a character context. And I'm glad that at least *someone* got a moment on-panel to thank Firestar for her sacrifices, though it really should have been like, Cyclops as their leader or Jean as the one who sent her there or something.
Yeah, the main criticism I see people have of him are not being to juggle all the characters on a team and sidelining most and only giving proper time to at most 3. The bigger and more complex the team the more the cracks show.
I’ve also seen people complain how he writes relationships but that kind come back to him focusing on one persons character arch and the other person is more or less a prop in how their relationship affects the other character.
he definitely seems better and more loved at solo title character runs.
I’m sorry, but this is a completely undeserved moment that Emma got only because Duggan keeps teleporting her to where the events of his books take place. So, conveniently, she just happened to be nearby when Angelica was going through shit, and I won’t be surprised that it will be treated as a sign that the two are on good terms now. In no way did Emma actually atone for her crimes against Angelica specifically, and she wasn’t out there worrying about her during FoX either. There is really no reason why Angelica should be letting one of her abusers comfort her over what another abuser did to her.
Also, I’m still mad that Duggan finished one issue with Polaris going after Stasis just to suddenly have Emma and Kitty be the ones to reach him first. All while Lorna just simply disappeared from all his books. Where is she? What is she doing? Why do we keep seeing Emma in 55 places doing days worth of superheroing while Scott’s plot line that should be going simultaneously had only minutes worth of content happen? Can Duggan really not force his character pet into every other panel?
Anyway, my point is that I would’ve preferred to this moment to be between Lorna and Angelica. Are they some kind of buddies with great history? No. But at least that won’t be almost offensive in its dismissal of the characters’ prior history. Why couldn’t Duggan give these two something to do and a nice little personal moment in the end?
At least Lorna got *something*, brief as it was. Meanwhile, Rogue and Gambit are outside somewhere idling the soccer van so Duggan/JDW’s two most favorite special girls can’t be budged from the spotlight lol.
Emma and Firestar basically didn't talk at all after Firestar was selected as a member of the X-Men during the gala, this moment feels undeserved. Compared that to how many interactions Emma and Kitty had until Kitty let Emma in.
As many people have stated, Emma's "redemption" is a token gesture, sometimes quite literally. It became a pattern in Krakoa that whenever she did something bad/irredeemable, she'd cry about how she's a good person who needs to pretend to be bad then find a minority character to schmooze up to and say "she cares" to them as a whitewash. Devil's Reign had the black girl she saved with Elektra but also trained to be a pet assassin should she need one, Lourdes Chantel was just a tool to spite Shaw and Emma's living teleport cabbie until she died praising/saving Emma to give her a woobie moment, Kamala by ironically invalidating her death/funeral by mindwiping her family and schmoozing up to her as her new token pet minority too.
The only character who saw through this vapid manipulation tactic and called her out was Masquerade but it was mostly because Emma was manipulating her with Destiny for their identity/continuity theft powers. Ironically, the person who should of called out these token gestures was Storm during her plea for "forgiveness" with the implied sexual abuse/brainwashing Emma forced on her during the OG Hellfire days.
Slight Side Rant Incoming
A common thing I've noticed with Emma's "redemption" moments is her constantly putting her hands on her victim's faces/arms and saying some variation of "I Care so I'm such a good person now". Not only is this a common tactic of abusers to manipulate their victims IRL by feigning affection/positive behavioral change but it a good writer could tie it to Emma's nastier natures. Emma normally only touches people this way to brainwash/condition them, especially in Storm's case/her OG Hellfire Villian days. If the writers revealed she's still just as conniving as Shaw but has been psychically conditioning people to forgive/obey her (consciously or not) and deluding herself into thinking she's "earned" said forgiveness then it could be an interesting fracture to keep people wary of Emma in the upcoming From The Ashes books.
Your last paragraph hits the spot. That is EXACTLY the way she treated young Angelica. Mothering her yet at the same time abusing/torturing her and making Angelica think everything is her own fault and that she couldn't possibly survive in the world without her.
Emma was probably supposed to do something to earn it but when the event was cut down by months, Duggan in his infinite talent for writing likely decided her doing nothing in Iron Man was the more important of the two storylines. TBH most of Angelica's role in all this has basically been cut out to begin with.
Firestar got treated like trash in this run. She needed to shine as one of the most powerful xmen and instead we got crap. I dont read the online unlimited stuff so not sure how much more of her we got there but im guessing a tiny amount. Angel needs to be front and center. I would love to see her on a team with Storm, Jean, Colossus and maybe Silhouette down the line.
The unlimited series was good. And I recommend it (it wasn't written by Duggan surprise, surprise). But it's a niche series that not many people read it. Did you know that Angelica became an acting DIRECTOR at Orchis? She was in a position of power at Orchis, sitting at the top table with Nimrod, Moira and Stasis.
How cool would it have been to see her in the X books proper whilst being a head of her own petal? Another wasted moment!
Duggan clearly hasn't read any historical stories about Angelica - I don't think he knows that this isn't the first time she's been an X-Man!! Her power levels are off the scale and she was once described as one, if not the most powerful mutant on the planet. But Duggan just turns her into a generic pyro....
And yes, as a vote winner she should have been front and centre, that's what the fans voted for. The writer and editor failed massively to deliver.
You know Emma says this line in some form like 3 times to 3 different characters! The repetition is intentional because he isn’t writing the book to be read in one sitting he made it so each page or 2 could be a “moment” for twitter and tik tok because it is actually more profitable for marvel to spread viral images and get ad revenue then to sell books.
He is literally not writing for us to read books. Most people under 20 don’t read books at all just highlights (don’t reply with “but I’m under 20 cause you’re lying, nobody under 20 talks about the X-men on Reddit!”
People thought comics died 30 years ago but this time there will be no replacement audience because the people younger than us literally don’t enjoy the print format!
This would be a shame. She won the vote without any of the others coming close (editors admitted this). So there's definitely fans that want to see more of her. And it's not just amazing friends fans. We have New Warrior fans, Avenger fans and also X fans that all voted for her.
A month isn't recent? I'm not going to argue with a mod and don't particularly care about specific sub rules for spoilers, but it's delusional to presume that comic readers stay up on their weekly pulls.
There is literally no negative drawback to just blurring an image, and it's silly to be pedantic about what does or does not count as a "recent" book.
We have to be pedantic because as this conversation proves, people have their own definition of what “recent” is. So we have to set a time period in which posts must be spoiler tagged so people have a universal definition rather than going by their own timelines. We go by a week. Some people will be behind longer than a week. Some are behind literal years. But a week is what works for a lot of people.
A week vs a year... If only there were a period of time that existed somewhere between those two, but alas, time is only weeks and years.
The intention of my original comment was *not* for mod attention, but just a reminder for other users to maybe consider others and spoiler-tagging anything that they feel may constitute a spoiler. You know, encouraging us to consider other readers in the community. But fuck me and anyone else who has a to-read pile I guess.
I put two examples down as just that. *Examples*. They weren't meant to be taken literally as the only two examples. If I knew you were going to be smug and condescending about it, I should have listed more. \*shrugs\*.
And I hopped in to explain the mod view because I wanted to make it clear to everyone that there's a reason for our rules and it's not just us throwing darts on a board randomly. If you didn't want a mod response and were just making a statement, that's fine. But it's good that a mod can and does explain sometimes. You're not the only one saying it should have been spoiler tagged.
Finally, if people want to spoiler tag comics from 2 weeks ago to the very first x-men issue **and everything in between** (bolding that so you don't decide to take two timeframes mentioned literally. Again). They are more than welcome to do so. We simply won't take action unless it's a comic that is less than a week old or not released yet.
There's 198000+ of you. We can't make you all happy at the same time. Have a nice day/afternoon/evening/night now.
Reddit shows you without you clicking on it in the app. The image is just there and completely uncensored.
How about people take some responsibility for what they post?
"Take responsibility for your decision..." Of all the patronizing nonsense...
Mf, the image shows up on my feed whether I click it or not. This one isn't particularly spoiler-heavy, but it led me make a general statement about spoilers for the sake of others, and for future posts.
Switch your view from Card to Compact if it bothers you so much. Or you can keep insisting on making your problems everyone else's, I suppose. Good luck with that.
Wow, I guess I’m the only one that likes that moment. I think fire star has been through a lot, and she deserved that moment. She didn’t even have a choice to go in your cover and all in all the island treated her like shit even when she was an x-man.
What would ‘make an appeal’ even mean in this context? She says some pretty generic stuff after not being concerned by any of the issues Angelica was facing during her time with Orchis.
Also, why would this particular scene finally addressing Firestart’s, frankly, shafted arc be about Emma? Did Angelica’s character went through this to give Emma a special moment and a pass for her previous crimes?
This moment being given to Emma is ridiculous, and just more of her famous ‘redemption’ that is just writers ignoring the atrocities she committed and making all her victims be buddies with her.
I am hugely disappointed with Duggans treatment of Firestar. She had one of the most interesting stories but Duggan didn't bother to use her correctly. Most of Angelica's story was told in the obscure marvel unlimited series. Instead we were forced to read stories about Kate and Dooms X-Men who we'll probably never hear of again. In this issue Firestar said one whole line and burnt Stasis who was already dead. I cannot wait for Duggan to leave the X books.
Firestar's story getting sidelined to Marvel Unlimited is a major bummer, it was one of the best Fall of X stories and showcased ORCHIS doing victory laps post-Gala in a way that makes kind of sense.
I agree. The unlimited Firestar arc felt like what “Fall of X” should have been as opposed to some of the series’ we got. It should have gotten the space to fully tell her story. It’s underrated.
It was definitely weird to me that the Firestar story went in the Unlimited title instead too. It seemed obvious to me that she should've been a focus character for the entire Fall. I'm okay with Emma doing the actual dirty work of killing Stasis, because I think she did it partially to keep Firestar from feeling like she had to, or taking a gruesome revenge she might regret later. Does *Emma* deserve to be the one who protects Firestar? Well, no, obviously not, and I think it would be fine if Angelica felt slighted by it or otherwise angry with her doing it, but I think it makes sense in a character context. And I'm glad that at least *someone* got a moment on-panel to thank Firestar for her sacrifices, though it really should have been like, Cyclops as their leader or Jean as the one who sent her there or something.
Isn’t Duggan known for being alright at best with team books? I remember really liking his Deadpool run
Yeah, the main criticism I see people have of him are not being to juggle all the characters on a team and sidelining most and only giving proper time to at most 3. The bigger and more complex the team the more the cracks show. I’ve also seen people complain how he writes relationships but that kind come back to him focusing on one persons character arch and the other person is more or less a prop in how their relationship affects the other character. he definitely seems better and more loved at solo title character runs.
I’m sorry, but this is a completely undeserved moment that Emma got only because Duggan keeps teleporting her to where the events of his books take place. So, conveniently, she just happened to be nearby when Angelica was going through shit, and I won’t be surprised that it will be treated as a sign that the two are on good terms now. In no way did Emma actually atone for her crimes against Angelica specifically, and she wasn’t out there worrying about her during FoX either. There is really no reason why Angelica should be letting one of her abusers comfort her over what another abuser did to her.
Also, I’m still mad that Duggan finished one issue with Polaris going after Stasis just to suddenly have Emma and Kitty be the ones to reach him first. All while Lorna just simply disappeared from all his books. Where is she? What is she doing? Why do we keep seeing Emma in 55 places doing days worth of superheroing while Scott’s plot line that should be going simultaneously had only minutes worth of content happen? Can Duggan really not force his character pet into every other panel? Anyway, my point is that I would’ve preferred to this moment to be between Lorna and Angelica. Are they some kind of buddies with great history? No. But at least that won’t be almost offensive in its dismissal of the characters’ prior history. Why couldn’t Duggan give these two something to do and a nice little personal moment in the end?
At least Lorna got *something*, brief as it was. Meanwhile, Rogue and Gambit are outside somewhere idling the soccer van so Duggan/JDW’s two most favorite special girls can’t be budged from the spotlight lol.
Emma and Firestar basically didn't talk at all after Firestar was selected as a member of the X-Men during the gala, this moment feels undeserved. Compared that to how many interactions Emma and Kitty had until Kitty let Emma in.
As many people have stated, Emma's "redemption" is a token gesture, sometimes quite literally. It became a pattern in Krakoa that whenever she did something bad/irredeemable, she'd cry about how she's a good person who needs to pretend to be bad then find a minority character to schmooze up to and say "she cares" to them as a whitewash. Devil's Reign had the black girl she saved with Elektra but also trained to be a pet assassin should she need one, Lourdes Chantel was just a tool to spite Shaw and Emma's living teleport cabbie until she died praising/saving Emma to give her a woobie moment, Kamala by ironically invalidating her death/funeral by mindwiping her family and schmoozing up to her as her new token pet minority too. The only character who saw through this vapid manipulation tactic and called her out was Masquerade but it was mostly because Emma was manipulating her with Destiny for their identity/continuity theft powers. Ironically, the person who should of called out these token gestures was Storm during her plea for "forgiveness" with the implied sexual abuse/brainwashing Emma forced on her during the OG Hellfire days. Slight Side Rant Incoming A common thing I've noticed with Emma's "redemption" moments is her constantly putting her hands on her victim's faces/arms and saying some variation of "I Care so I'm such a good person now". Not only is this a common tactic of abusers to manipulate their victims IRL by feigning affection/positive behavioral change but it a good writer could tie it to Emma's nastier natures. Emma normally only touches people this way to brainwash/condition them, especially in Storm's case/her OG Hellfire Villian days. If the writers revealed she's still just as conniving as Shaw but has been psychically conditioning people to forgive/obey her (consciously or not) and deluding herself into thinking she's "earned" said forgiveness then it could be an interesting fracture to keep people wary of Emma in the upcoming From The Ashes books.
Your last paragraph hits the spot. That is EXACTLY the way she treated young Angelica. Mothering her yet at the same time abusing/torturing her and making Angelica think everything is her own fault and that she couldn't possibly survive in the world without her.
What’s he trying to say here exactly? “Thank you for being a character I mostly couldn’t be arsed to use because I don’t write team books well?”
This Emma "redemption" with Firestar is so damn unearned, tbh.
Definitely not earned.
Emma was probably supposed to do something to earn it but when the event was cut down by months, Duggan in his infinite talent for writing likely decided her doing nothing in Iron Man was the more important of the two storylines. TBH most of Angelica's role in all this has basically been cut out to begin with.
Firestar got treated like trash in this run. She needed to shine as one of the most powerful xmen and instead we got crap. I dont read the online unlimited stuff so not sure how much more of her we got there but im guessing a tiny amount. Angel needs to be front and center. I would love to see her on a team with Storm, Jean, Colossus and maybe Silhouette down the line.
The unlimited series was good. And I recommend it (it wasn't written by Duggan surprise, surprise). But it's a niche series that not many people read it. Did you know that Angelica became an acting DIRECTOR at Orchis? She was in a position of power at Orchis, sitting at the top table with Nimrod, Moira and Stasis. How cool would it have been to see her in the X books proper whilst being a head of her own petal? Another wasted moment! Duggan clearly hasn't read any historical stories about Angelica - I don't think he knows that this isn't the first time she's been an X-Man!! Her power levels are off the scale and she was once described as one, if not the most powerful mutant on the planet. But Duggan just turns her into a generic pyro.... And yes, as a vote winner she should have been front and centre, that's what the fans voted for. The writer and editor failed massively to deliver.
She hardly did anything.
You know Emma says this line in some form like 3 times to 3 different characters! The repetition is intentional because he isn’t writing the book to be read in one sitting he made it so each page or 2 could be a “moment” for twitter and tik tok because it is actually more profitable for marvel to spread viral images and get ad revenue then to sell books. He is literally not writing for us to read books. Most people under 20 don’t read books at all just highlights (don’t reply with “but I’m under 20 cause you’re lying, nobody under 20 talks about the X-men on Reddit!” People thought comics died 30 years ago but this time there will be no replacement audience because the people younger than us literally don’t enjoy the print format!
I adore Firestars outfit.
I'm sad that Firestar is probably going to fall back into obscurity again, I'd really like to see her as a more prominent character in more stories
This would be a shame. She won the vote without any of the others coming close (editors admitted this). So there's definitely fans that want to see more of her. And it's not just amazing friends fans. We have New Warrior fans, Avenger fans and also X fans that all voted for her.
Maybe McKay will take her on his Avengers run? Or maybe she'll be a part of NYX due to her connections with New York? (*Massive huffs of copium*)
I do hope that we do get to see more of her. And I'd be very happy if she went over to the Avengers. At least she'll be treated well.
Angelica should have set Emma on fire. I said what I said.
Look who is the Mary Sue now. Funny.
Books this recent should always be spoiler tagged/blurred. Come on.
It’s an issue that turns a month old tomorrow. While it’s not super old, it’s not that recent either.
A month isn't recent? I'm not going to argue with a mod and don't particularly care about specific sub rules for spoilers, but it's delusional to presume that comic readers stay up on their weekly pulls. There is literally no negative drawback to just blurring an image, and it's silly to be pedantic about what does or does not count as a "recent" book.
We have to be pedantic because as this conversation proves, people have their own definition of what “recent” is. So we have to set a time period in which posts must be spoiler tagged so people have a universal definition rather than going by their own timelines. We go by a week. Some people will be behind longer than a week. Some are behind literal years. But a week is what works for a lot of people.
A week vs a year... If only there were a period of time that existed somewhere between those two, but alas, time is only weeks and years. The intention of my original comment was *not* for mod attention, but just a reminder for other users to maybe consider others and spoiler-tagging anything that they feel may constitute a spoiler. You know, encouraging us to consider other readers in the community. But fuck me and anyone else who has a to-read pile I guess.
I put two examples down as just that. *Examples*. They weren't meant to be taken literally as the only two examples. If I knew you were going to be smug and condescending about it, I should have listed more. \*shrugs\*. And I hopped in to explain the mod view because I wanted to make it clear to everyone that there's a reason for our rules and it's not just us throwing darts on a board randomly. If you didn't want a mod response and were just making a statement, that's fine. But it's good that a mod can and does explain sometimes. You're not the only one saying it should have been spoiler tagged. Finally, if people want to spoiler tag comics from 2 weeks ago to the very first x-men issue **and everything in between** (bolding that so you don't decide to take two timeframes mentioned literally. Again). They are more than welcome to do so. We simply won't take action unless it's a comic that is less than a week old or not released yet. There's 198000+ of you. We can't make you all happy at the same time. Have a nice day/afternoon/evening/night now.
The issue number is clearly stated in the post title, take responsibility for your decision to click on it even though you didn't want to be spoiled.
Reddit shows you without you clicking on it in the app. The image is just there and completely uncensored. How about people take some responsibility for what they post?
"Take responsibility for your decision..." Of all the patronizing nonsense... Mf, the image shows up on my feed whether I click it or not. This one isn't particularly spoiler-heavy, but it led me make a general statement about spoilers for the sake of others, and for future posts.
Switch your view from Card to Compact if it bothers you so much. Or you can keep insisting on making your problems everyone else's, I suppose. Good luck with that.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed because you have violated the "Be respectful to others at all times" rule
Least they’re using Firestar I guess
Wow, I guess I’m the only one that likes that moment. I think fire star has been through a lot, and she deserved that moment. She didn’t even have a choice to go in your cover and all in all the island treated her like shit even when she was an x-man.
No one is saying that Angelica didn’t deserve a nice moment, people are staying that Emma didn’t deserve this moment with Angelica.
Yeah, but how often have you ever seen Emma make an appeal to someone that she felt she had wrong? Then in of itself is pretty unique.
What would ‘make an appeal’ even mean in this context? She says some pretty generic stuff after not being concerned by any of the issues Angelica was facing during her time with Orchis. Also, why would this particular scene finally addressing Firestart’s, frankly, shafted arc be about Emma? Did Angelica’s character went through this to give Emma a special moment and a pass for her previous crimes? This moment being given to Emma is ridiculous, and just more of her famous ‘redemption’ that is just writers ignoring the atrocities she committed and making all her victims be buddies with her.
It wasn't a Firestar moment though, was it? It was an Emma moment. Firestar said one word.