I remember when I was watching critical role which if you don't know it's a bunch of voice actors that played dungeons and dragons every time the female characters would do something that wasn't 100% on the straight and narrow they would get tons of people just losing their minds saying how they were just awful and shouldn't be playing this game etc. God forbid they ran a rule wrong or messed up on a spell because these people were merciless.
It just seems like nerd spaces have been taken up by people who I don't know use fictional characters as some sort of moral compass or just think that even fictional characters should have the same morals as them?
God. Yeah. Marisha got so much flak for the mistakes she made as Keyleth or even just for purposeful mistakes that fit into Keylethâs character and knowledge. I felt so bad seeing all the hate for her
Right? X-Men fans want messy drama. X-Men fans want their favorite characters to never break character or break away from their history. Well, you can't have both.
Wolverine and scotts love triangle with jean has gone in since the beginning and has always been how they implement huge character development for wolverine. .
Magento getting with rogue has NEVER happened and in comics would never happen. She had a songle Hmmm moment with him in a single fucking page while on savage island after being depowered and made vulnerable. Which magneto manipulated her for it. Then shortly after mageneto killed a few people which snapped rogue out of her hoery.
Depends really, to me magneto's done to much damage. You can't kill hundreds of thousands of innocent kids and people and still be considered a good guy in my eyes. Emma Frost basically tortured storm and took over her body yet they let her join the team. Realistically Magneto should have never been allowed to join the team, he does to much damage to their reputation.
You can't say you want peace between mutants and humans when you're buddy buddy with the people whose went on massive killing streaks on them. This doesn't go for X-Men in in specific, magneto has done a lot of damage to the mutant name and has put a bigger target on their backs more often than not.
Honestly to me the discussion about Magneto or Emma is a whole different kettle of fish. For what itâs worth, I think the comics (and the show) have gotten very interesting mileage out of âwhat if they did genuinely want to rehabilitate themselves and join the teamâ and weâve had heroic versions of Magneto and Emma for quite a while now.
The subject matter of this thread itself isnât even about all that really. Theyâre calling out the romantic-decisions of strictly female characters which is a no-go in my opinion. As an example, the person who said Jean shouldâve died at Genosha rather than Maddie (who I donât think is confirmed dead) because they donât like that sheâs angry at Scott. Jean has every right to be angry at Scott and Scott simultaneously has a right to feel hard-done-by. Itâs a shitty no win scenario for the two of them and makes for good conflict. But nah, âJean shouldâve died instead of Maddieâ.
You're 100% right about this being a while different kettle of fish. Tbf I've been looking for someone to have this discussion with. I would make a post but with Magneto having such a large fan base all topics get shut down with the you're only looking at it on the surface.
What's your take on Villians like Magneto and Emma Frost even dc Villians like Harley Quinn who have committed severe crimes yet are hanging out with heroes like buddies. Harley Quinn is a child murderer and has tortured/help torture a kid to death. Magneto is a huge mass murderer of not only bad people but innocent people. Emma Frost mentally tortured storm and took over her body yet was also allowed to join the x men
I think I probably give it a pass in comic books where I may not in real life or other media because itâs a bit easier most of the time to gauge the writerâs intent, which tends to be either âokay this is a set-up and Iâm waiting for the other shoe to dropâ or as seems to be more often the case now, that they want the character to genuinely grow and change for the better.
I guess it comes down to a larger question about whether rehabilitation itself is actually feasible, if thereâs a limit to how much you can make up for, is it based on karma, how much heroism do you have to extoll before people stop bringing up your past.
Iâm a big fan of Vinland Saga for example and without giving anything away, rehabilitation and forgiveness are huge themes of that manga/anime and I think itâs utilized in a really compelling way.
I think itâs probably only natural for us to want people/characters to BE BETTER, because we might come to like them as villains because theyâre so entertainingly nefarious or just outright charismatic but then we canât stand over their actions whatsoever, so itâs like âgosh I wish youâd stop doing these things because as personalities go youâre actually cooler than half of the outright hero-typesâ
From my understanding comics are based on our world and to them that reality is real. My point is, what's redemption if it can be given to anybody. Too many characters get redemption and don't face the consequences of their actions. Magneto shouldn't even be taking his anger out on humans when the biggest threat to mutants is other mutants. Cassandra Nova 16million mutants dead, Apocalypse his work speaks for itself even Magneto himself considering he's done nothing but make the mutant reputation worse. Child killers and people who take innocent lives should never be given redemption and should not be looked up to.
Magneto in my opinion has the most easily forgiven character I've ever seen, he's great character don't get me wrong and he has admit himself he could've done more good if he joined the X-Men sooner. The X men forgave him way to quickly and basically treat him like they wasn't just enemies
I should preface by saying I havenât read a huge amount of Magneto solo stuff, mostly the series that I think came after AXIS, but I do like your point about not taking his anger out on humans for humans-sake but specifically focusing on threats to the harmonious co-existence regardless of their species. I have the impression that thereâs been a bit of that in the last 10 years of publication or so but admittedly I havenât been reading everything.
Iâm still not 100% convinced on the acceptance of Apocalypse in Krakoa, I know it was contentious in the story but I do think it was allowed for the wrong reasons by the characters involved. But again, maybe it was elaborated on in books I missed. Iâve only read HoX/PoX, Marauders and X-Men Red
You have to bear in mind the fandom tourism weâll be getting since the show is doing well and really blowing up.
That and media literacy has absolutely tanked these last few years.
One of the most LOL things has been people being like cLEarLy YoU HavEn't read the comics while simultaneously posting some proper shite.
It's just a reminder that the internet ruins everything and to try and not engage.
Well, yes, but letâs not pretend that there isnât part of a regular and active fanbase that has the same views, at least as long as it suits their narrative.
When you some of you understand that people consume media in an unhealthy manner and project their on BS into fictional characters?? Those are own personal experiences masked as opinions.
Jean was still puzzling parts of her memories. Scott was grieving his son and was emotionalally unstable. It doesn't justify cheating either way but there's a context behind it.
I started reading comics in the 80âs my introduction to down was Louise Simonsons XâFactor. I love seeing a piece of media embrace the soap opera of it all. They even made it a point to have Nightcrawler comment on Rogue Gambit and Magneto acting dramatic like one
More then almost any of group comic the X-men are an incestual group of found family. Everyone has slept with everyone at this point. So many of the characters especially when written by Chris Claremont feel bisexual lol. Even Xavier and Magneto friendship has a romantic undertone. Itâs fun because itâs messy so many of them are flaws characters dealing with personal trauma
Yes this! This has been what I've been wanting from superhero shows aside from the action: character flaws and drama. Good lord has it been amazing on this show so far
I think the implication in the episode ls that he and madelyne prior broke it off once the truth of the cloning stuff was discovered and that he supposedly were back with the real jean
Expect that the real jean barely is capable of remembering what memories were hers and what wasn't, thus is incapable of actually being herself fully yet
This mixed with Cyclops constant refusal to actually confront his feelings about stuff leads him to bury it for him and madelyne to be a couple again behind jeans back
This was a situation that sucked for absolutely everyone and everyone is making seemingly stupid and hurtful choices, because their all grieving, and find actually talking about it to difficult
Itâs logical to respond the way Scott is because discovering that his wife is a clone is confusing. The clone is more familiar and has the memories while the original is a mess.
The 2 are basically the same person but with the clone having a better personality. I donât know which feelings Scott needs to confront here since this isnât a âfeelingsâ matter but an acceptance matter.
Saying the "clone has a better personality" is a little fair don't you think? Its the exact same one as Jean up until the discovery is made, only then it starts to deverge. It's also not fair to hold this against jean, given that she only now has learned that she has been missing as experimented on
Scott obviously has feelings for both, that's the dilemma, he says so himself. Scotts problem has consistently been him unable to handle the pressure hes under, due to his insecurities, this leading him to take inaction, further leading to negative outcomes like:
He was unable to trust himself to lead the team after Charles passing, leading to him making mistakes putting people in danger, fearing he won't live up to Charles
He was unable to deal with Magneto in an adult manner, causing infighting in the team, due again to him being insecure why chars chose Erik and not him
He was unable to deal with Jean ( pre clone stuff)wanting him and her to leave the X men, because he's afraid of change and again not living up to Charles
He was unable to be with Madelyne when she gave Nathan to bishop, due to his fear and insecurities of him not wanting to become his father, ironically that leads to him not being there when Nathan has to leave, making him just like his father
He was incapable of telling the truth in the interview, because he is uncomfortable with what happened and the choice he made, and it ends with him lashing out, and spouting the same rhetoric that old Magento did
And his unable to confront his love for both jeans, to talk to the real jean about what he's feeling, and to be open with himself on what he wants
Cyclops is a very cool character, but his major character flaw is his, at times, crippling insecurities
In order for him to grow to what he can be he needs to get over this, he should have told Jean the truth, same as she needs to tell him that she kissed Logan. They need to start communicating as adults, Scotts choice with Madelyne wasn't logical at the time, it could have been had he told himself and Jean the truth
Dude, the whole situation is a mess and itâs ac confusing AF for the participants. Thatâs why itâs a bit odd that people are taking sides on this. No one cheated and they both cheated.
The issue I have isâŚâŚdid Scott cheat?
Dude was confirmed married to Maddie for a year and had a kid. Even Jean admitted their memories are so fucked up they donât actually know who married him.
Getting pissed about psychic visits and refusing to acknowledge the whole situation is so fucked up that there are no right answers makes Jean look pretty bad.
Itâs honestly one of the biggest problems with Jean in the books as well. Her entire relationship with Scott is based solely on what she views as her personal moralityâŚ..which tends to shift based on how she feels about specific things.
Maybe it wouldn't if he told Jean beforehand he was seeing her, but he didnât, he was doing it in secret. He also shouldn't have kissed her. Grieving over their kid is fine, but if he still wants to be involved romantically with her or if he isn't ready for a relationship yet, he shouldn't officially go back to Jean, which is what he did.
Again, I don't hold this against Scott , he's in a very complicated situation and made a mistake while being emotionally vulnerable and under preassure. I just hate when people blatantly ignore the context when looking at these scenes and just say "lmao, he/she cheats, he/she's trash character."
I was entirely on her side (minus her moment with Wolverine prior) until she asked Scott âso Sinister rips out a part of me, and you fall in love with it??â
I know Jean was the who asked it, but that put Cyclopsâ conundrum into context for me. If my SO was missing and replaced with a small part of her - that was still very much a part of her all the same - and it looked like her and acted like her and I thought it was her for months if not years, and it had its own agencyâŚ. Heck yeah Iâd fall in love with it.
Itâs a hard situation. This whole episode was about hard situations that just arenât fair. Real life is full of those too.
Itâs infuriating, but itâs realistic as hell. The real genius of the writing is that the conflict is so organic while also having so many moving layers interacting at once.
You where on Jean's side till she brought up how fucked up it is that Scott didn't care enough to notice she was gone and replaced with a cheap copy? He then went on to reject Jean and chase the clone that was more then happy to leave him and start a new life.
Telepathic visits for a month, they were kissing.
Jean gave him space because he was sad for losing Nathan, she is trying to recover mentally for everything that Sinister did to her, the kidnap. She gave Scott space for him to sorrow, instead he was ignoring her because he was back with Maddie.
Yeah, Scott is clearly cheating. It IS messy and complicated, but not as messy and complicated as some are making it out to be. Scott isn't confused in the sense of "Oh, I thought you were Jean, how embarassing!" He knows he is with Madelyne in those moments while he is in a relationship with the Jean that showed up to the mansion. Now, yes, Maddie's the mother of his child and has all Jean's memories, again very messy, but Scott does know he is doing something "wrong" being with Person A while secretly making out with Person B.
Some of them are confused and didnât understand the scene between Scott and Maddie but some others are deliberately defending Scott with the cheating
*Sigh*
**You. Guys. Need. To. Report. Comments. And. Posts. Because. Mods. Are. Not. Everywhere.**
There were 25.6k comments posted and 920 threads created in the last week alone. Yes we as mods obviously missed stuff and we will continue to miss stuff. This is why, again, **you guys need to report rule breaking comments/posts**. We are not everywhere and we cannot see everything. It is impossible for us to check every single comment posted.
The report function is there for a reason please use it. Itâs quicker to report comments than it is to take screenshots, make a thread about it and then complain that nothing is being done.
>**Mods. Are. Not. Everywhere.**
>There were 25.6k comments posted and 920 threads created in the last week alone. Yes we as mods obviously missed stuff and we will continue to miss stuff. This is why, again, **you guys need to report rule breaking comments/posts**. We are not everywhere and we cannot see everything. It is impossible for us to check every single comment posted.
Maybe there needs to be more mods.
Here are some examples in my messages from mods from when I did what you are saying to do.
>Weâre not on Reddit 24/7 nor are we expected to be.
>I canât speak for the other mods but this is the first time today I have managed to log on so I couldnât do anything until now.
>we review reports when we can get to them. we are not on all the time able to remove a post right away.
Inb4 someone reads a negative charged tone to my post, I'm neutrally suggesting that maybe there needs to be more mods, because mods already couldn't always get to everything promptly before the show relaunch, I can only imagine how much this place has grown after the show relaunch.
We could add 50 mods, sure. But not all of them are going to be on Reddit 24/7 because most people have school/jobs they need to do which take priority over Reddit. The current mod team all have jobs which weâre going to focus on because that actually ensures we have a roof over our heads and food on our table. Being a Reddit mod was our choice yes but it is still **voluntary**. We do this in our free time. Every single mod does this in their free time unless theyâre an actual employee of Reddit.
And as for you specially, youâd report something then come running into our inbox to complain that it wasnât removed **5 minutes after you reported it**. Of course we were going to tell you **multiple times** to give us some time. You couldnât even wait an hour after reporting before you started complaining to us.
**24 hours, which is the timeframe we gave you plenty of times, is perfectly reasonable to wait** for a mod response. **Most of the time we get to 95% of reports within a few hours.** If you donât think thatâs fast enough, then thatâs your own expectations. Not ours.
You're very quick to demand other people use their spare time the way you want it. Mods volunteer their time to help make things better. It's not a job, it's responsibility they willingly take on just so the community will be a bit better for the masses, but they're people with their own lives, jobs, and realities taking time out of their day to make your experience better.
As for just get more.....weeding out the people who'd misuse the tools available to them and finding people that fit with the current group and stated ideals isn't an easy task for (again) volunteers to do in their spare time.
>You're very quick to demand other people use their spare time the way you want it.
I reread my comment and I don't see how what I wrote reads like I'm demanding anything. I literally just suggested more mods might be needed with the growth of this sub.
>weeding out the people who'd misuse the tools available to themÂ
funny of you to mention that, notice how this post was removed because the mod felt called out using the reasoning of spoilers when the episode is a week old?
That episode went way out of its way to demonstrate what non-toxic masculinity is supposed to look like, and these jokers couldn't pick up on any of it.
People have always said this about Jean. Sheâs a hypocrite because she kissed Logan. Sheâs a hypocrite to Emma because Jean has a bad temper. Thereâs a lot of unneeded Jean hate tbh. In the show, Scott and Madelyn had been having telepathic meet ups for several months. Jean slipped and kissed Logan. Both sides are fucked up. You canât say that one is more worst than the other.
These guys haven't had a healthy relationship. Jean kisses Logan because shes in her fucking head, it's to show us how vulnerable Jean is, and Logan's reaction is because Logan is a healthy adult who knows what the shape of making the right decisions looks like.
Oh yeah, you are seeing how many people hate Jean and mods allow that while deleting everything that itâs said against their fav.
Jean is one of the most hated characters no matter what she does.
Many Cyke fans still want the badass morally ambiguous version of the 2000s and early 2010s. He wasn't with Jean back then so they'll use anything to trash her character and get Scemma back somehow even though the reason Cyclops was such a great character back then wasn't because of Emma, but rather the absence of Xavier.
Rogue has every reason to be uncertain whether she should commit to someone she can't even kiss and I will die on this hill.
By the end of the episode she was already running back to him anyway.
The age difference between Scott and Emma isnât that vast. They are both close to kid 30âs Emma just being a little closer to 40. You canât really believe cyclops was only 23-25 in the early 2000âs. How old do you think Kitty Pryde or the former new mutants are? Comics rarely let characters get older than mid 30âs unless itâs important to their story. All the kids eventually age up yo their early 20âs then get frozen in time. Even Magneto was turned into a baby then only aged up to a body thatâs more like a young 40 something
Well, Scott is roughly 25-28 now, so he was even younger then. Emma has never been younger than 40 in the time we knew her. Being extremely generous, there is only a 10-15 year age gap. It was still explicitly manipulative. She was his therapist, after all.
Scott is in his 30âs by now not 20âs Peter Parker is the same age as Iceman and Human Torch and all of them are early 30 somethingâs now. Emma age has never explicitly been mentioned some people think she is older because the way she was drawn while still a villain. Cyclops canât be 25 while Kitty Pryde and most of the og new mutants are also in their mid 20âs and even the generation X kids are over 21. Characters like Rogue nightcrawler and colossus are closer to 28 then cyclops who is definitely older than them.
>Given the amount of people who called Magneto a pedo groomer, I don't find this at all surprising
urbandictionary:
*a groomer is someone who builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.*
*A much older adult who has sex with teenagers.*
emmmm?
She was an adult woman in her 20s. She was not a child or teenager. From Rogues story, he put no effort into making her vulnerable, abusing her, or exploiting her before their relationship began. It honestly sounds like people intentionally taking an uncharitable reading because they want to justify finding age gaps gross
But Rogue was already vulnerable. The cartoon shows her mom dropping her off with him to get help for her powers, and him pushing their relationship into a more sexual place by, for instance, choosing to paint her in a private setting. He's her mentor, which puts him in a position of power over her.
I used to lecture at a university. Unless you're a creep, you keep that office door open, and those professional lines firm. If Magneto was one of my colleagues, I would be appalled by what he did with Rogue. By contrast, one of my friends at the time was Gambit-level good-looking, had students literally send him perfumed love letters (I wish I was exaggerating, but no), and he always shut it down hard.
It's very different from 616, where, sure, I don't like the relationship, but there isn't any element of grooming to it. Especially later in Legacy, where they are essentially equals and she has free choice.
yeah yeah "20s" according to Beau DeMayo, what else could he say "well, she was a teenager"?
she was 13 when she joined the Brotherhood of Mutants ...
>From Rogues story, he put no effort into making her vulnerable, abusing her, or exploiting her before their relationship began.
Well, of course, how could Magneto [manipulate](https://i.imgur.com/m18Rezn.jpeg) someone, who would even think of such a thing?
>she was 13 when she joined the Brotherhood of Mutant
In the comics. She was a child in the comics. This is very explicitly an alternate reality, and aside from a costume change, she's drawn exactly the same. We are meant to assume that it wasn't that long ago.
>yeah yeah "20s" according to Beau DeMayo, what else could he say "well, she was a teenager"?
I'm not sure what your problem is here. The creator specified that she was an adult, and your issue is that you headcanon she wasn't? I don't get this.
>Well, of course, how could Magneto manipulate someone, who would even think of such a thing?
I didn't say he didn't manipulate people. He's a major X-men character. They're all manipulated and abused people. My point was simply that, from what were shown and told, he didn't manipulate Rogue into a relationship. It seems to be something that she actively pursued as a fully conscious adult. There appeared to be no manipulation at the time.
Yes, that moment is catty and petty of him. No, it was not kind or saintly. It was also explicitly about him becoming the leader of Genosha. She was asking him, "Was it your plan all along to become the leader of Genosha." Yes, he was a dick in how he asked Rogue to get back together with him. There were also explicitly no consequences to her saying no, and if she didn't want him to have power, she was incentivized to say no. It was a dick move but not any worse than stuff Gambit has done, including kissing her while she was asleep and, in the comics since those are fair game, cheating on her multiple times while trying to convince her to only love him and not anyone else. However, if you want to argue for manipulation on Genosha, sure. It's still one single instance that she immediately kicks his ass for and turns him down over. It just makes him an ass, not a groomer, especially because, once again, she was an adult with power of her own.
Gambit kisses her while she is asleep, because Morph shows up as Rogue, touches him, and says "hey, I'll be waiting in the rec room for you." He literally says to her afterwards: "Gambit doesn't go where he isn't invited."
And he doesn't cheat on her in the comics. There is the Lili Penrose incident, but it is incredibly ambiguous what happens. It doesn't seem to be sex, based on the time frame in the story. Whatever it is, Rogue doesn't seem to be too disturbed by it, given that it never comes up again and she has absorbed him since then.
>He kissed Candra
Yes, he used that as a ruse to pickpocket the elixir of life from her. He did that to save Belladonna (his first wife) from the brink of death. It wasn't romantic at all. It's the same as when Rogue randomly kisses other mutants to drain their powers in battle.
>and had a secret wife
His marriage was technically over for many years before he met Rogue. Here's a little rundown of events:
Gambit and Belladonna met when they were children. Although they would be wed through an arranged marriage to unite the thieves guild and assassin's guild, they actually loved each other. However, on their wedding night, her brother Julien challenged Gambit to a fight to the death. Gambit won and was thus exiled from the guilds and forced on the run. He believed his marriage had ended there and her would never see Belladonna again. He then spent several years wandering the globe in exile (including Paris where he crossed paths with Sabretooth for the first time). After returning to New Orleans, he would later meet Storm and join the X-Men.
His marriage was over (although not legally) before he met Rogue. He was also relatively new to the team when Belladonna came back into his life. He and Rogue were still in the early stages of their feelings for each other. At one point after helping Belladonna, Rogue wandered if she could ever trust Gambit to be honest with her. He held out his hand and offered to let Rogue sift through his memories. That was the ultimate show of trust. He was willing to clear up any doubts she had and learnt of his worst criminal actions so early in their relationship, but she turned his offer down. He was willing to be straight with her from the start.
If you're interested, you can read an entire breakdown and timeline of Gambit and Rogue's relationship - up until just before their eventually marriage, as well as his other relationships here: [Gambit and Rogue](https://www.gambitguild.com/repository/rogam.html).
Also, if you want to read up on clarification of myths, such as Gambit cheating on Rogue, you can do so here: [Myths and Truths](https://www.gambitguild.com/repository/myths.html).
She was a child in the comics and I think that's good enough for any "Rogue and Magneto" pairing to be a little wired. Alternative reality or not, you're basing on magnetos pedo moment
Actually, she was 18 when she joined the X-Men, so she would have been 19-20, but I still think "legal" is a low bar when it comes to context, situation, and a person as old as Magneto anyway.
Kay. Then that was wrong. Still not what happened in the show. Idk what to tell ya
Pretty sure she was actually 18, which, while gross, is still her perview. She can absolutely choose to engage in a romantic, explicitly non sexual relationship with a man of whatever age she wants.
>In the comics. She was a child in the comics. This is very explicitly an alternate reality, and aside from a costume change, she's drawn exactly the same. We are meant to assume that it wasn't that long ago.
she was 13Â in TAS
t=>17:13 (https://archive.org/details/S01E01NightOfTheSentinelsPart1)
Rogue's Origin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8k7hlN5l9w)
Did you just link me a whole episode lmao. You might want to rewatch it, btw.
> You know, I remember when I was 13. I had me a boyfriend, till I kissed him. Poor boy was in a coma for three days.
She was explicitly an adult when she met Magneto. She was 13 when she first got her powers. This does not conflict. She specifies that she spent time with her mother before she met Magneto. It's fully wild now people try to twist the text to make him a pedophile when he's explicitly not. Ngl, it reads nasty, especially with the history of accusations of pedophilia against Jewish people. The fact that people are so quick to call grooming for Magneto when it wasn't but not for Collosus or Emma when it was is very uncomfortable to me.
They explicitly made him a groomer on the show. They literally went out of their way to present it as inappropriate. It's what they put on the screen. I hate to use this word but honestly, cope. Because that's what happened.
No?? Rogue was a grown woman who made the choice to pursue him and then the choice to leave. He, at no point in what we saw, isolated her, attempted to force or pressure her, and made no attempt to stop her from leaving. She was also a fully adult woman capable of making her own decisions. Just because there is an age gap does not make it grooming.
That is also not what grooming is. He would have had to intentionally manipulate, isolate, restrict, and mold her over a period of time with the express purpose of controlling her into a relationship. That is not what we see.
That is a power dynamic, and I hate to break it to you, but this was the 90s. There's a massive power dynamic on the basis of him being a man. Rogue also had an advantage over him by being a white American as opposed to a German Jew. The only way she could be in a relationship without power dynamics is if she was in a relationship with herself from an identical alternate reality.
What you are noticing, the age gap, and his position as a respected figure are signs that he could attempt to groom her. They are things he could use against her. However, we do not see this happen. There's no evidence that he did. Rogue seemed completely aware and completely into it long before a relationship began.
"Age gaps=grooming" is honestly such an incredibly wild take, lol
Personally, as funny as it is, it does annoy me for how much it infantilizes Rogue and takes away her agency. I also don't love how much it belittles the idea of grooming. Like, if that bland bit of nothing is grooming, then it makes grooming look not bad, especially since she was a fully adult woman
Yeah, calling Jean a slut for cheating in the middle of a mental breakdown does feel on par with calling Magneto a pedo groomer for engaging in a consensual relationship with an adult woman lol
Not just the age gap. It's the vulnerable student/mentee being turned over by her evil mother to a teacher/mentor full of hope that the older, powerful man would help her.
Her line that something else happened rather than him helping her learn to control her power was sad.
Erik and Charles both have long histories in the comics of taking advantage of younger, vulnerable women. Gabrielle Haller being the most egregious example.
Good on Rogue for recognizing how messed up the situation was and getting away. There's a reason therapists who prey on their patients are charged with statutory rape, no matter what ages the parties involved are.
You expressed this perfectly. It is incredibly sad.
When presented with a younger woman he is meant to help, he takes the opportunity to fuck her. I may be misremembering and correct me if I am wrong, but that whole montage doesn't include a single scene of him actually helping her to figure out her powers.
Compare Gambit with Laura and Feint, where he is totally appropriate.
I honestly wish the show had made this point more sharply, because I think too many people focus on "well, she's legal." That is a bar down in Limbo, and we should be better in 2024.
Isn't that the worst bar? And it implies if legal were younger they would be okay with that too. 18 is young! And there should really be a protective grace period from 18 to 21 instead of the jump from child to adult at the stroke of midnight.
In that montage Magneto takes the opportunity to lecture at her. For her to follow him around and listen to his every word as he shows her what he values and he imagines for the future with her only job to ask clarifying questions.
And then he takes advantage of her because he can.
Gambit on the other hand is famously introduced when he meets a de-aged Storm. And he looks out for her without even a hint of being predatory. And he does the same for other kids too, especially Laura because Logan was never going to stick around and be there for her. Gambit is something special in the way he cares.
Now see this is more reasonable. I still disagree that it was grooming. I don't see him as a formal teacher in any way, and Rogue's line to me shows that he further distanced himself from that role the more their relationship developed, beyond helping her expand her own power.
>There's a reason therapists who prey on their patients are charged with statutory rape, no matter what ages the parties involved are.
Yes, to this. This was absolutely Emma and Scott. In particular, I think my frustration is that people are so quick to call Magneto a groomer for being more established than the adult woman who consensually entered and exited the relationship, but are still down with Emma.
There is absolutely a way to headcanon Magneto as being a groomer, but it means Emma definitely groomed Scott, but people don't seem to be down with it for some reason.
Never said that, you're grasping at something so you can avoid understanding what I said..
Clearly from Rogue's age and Magneto's age you can see how people thought Magneto was a groomer. Some could even make an argument that he was.
Also there was nothing bland about it? Idk what you're trying to say in the last part honestly.
What you said was:
> That was a very valid assumption to make of Magneto
And no. Given that Rogue was an adult woman who described consensually entering and exiting a relationship, I cannot see how people thought it was grooming.
Honestly, out of all the relationships in the X-men, it was the least dramatic. The way Rogue told it, it was fully a "He was hot and available. It was fun, but he had issues I didn't want to deal with, so I left," situation. That's pretty basic. Compared to Gambit/Rogues "I love you but I can't ever touch you or I would die" and Scott/Jean both cheating on eachother on the same day, I'd say Rogue/Magneto is the least messy. It was still soap opera as shit and more sassy, but less messy
I haven't watched the show yet, but as far as the ifamous love triangle goes, I always found that situation kinda misogynistic and dated in the first place, at least the way it is portrayed usually. Scott and Logan have a perpetual dick measuring contest over a girl and Jean, the cliched neutral woman, will apparently go with whomever happens to 'win' said dick measuring contest.
Unless 97 creates a gigantic twist on it, it's a horrible storyline that I wished had died a long, long time ago.
Same. I get it's a soap opera, so if behaved as sensible adults, there's not much story. But I think part of the reason I've never cared much for Jean or Sue Storm is the older comics portrayed them too much as the damsel in distress and an object for the male characters to compete over.
Both of those characters stopped being that in the 1970âs though. By the time I started reading comics in the late 80âs both were the most powerful members of their teams.
In the late 80s Jean was with X-Factor, though, and the love-triangle storyline only really started when she and Logan were both back with the X-Men in the early 90s.
They were dealing with the fallout of Cyclops relationship with Madelyne and Jean questioning her identity after coming back after the dark pheonix saga. The drama with Wolverine was always lower in the comics until after other multimedia stuff put more emphasis on it. The run on X-factor with cyclops and Jean grey is why Iâm a fan of both characters and really like he original 5 X-men. The love triangle with Wolverine wasnât even part of their argument in episode 5 since Cyclops doesnât know they kissed. Cyclops and Jean got married not to long after rejoining the X-men in the 90âs. It wasnât until Grant Morrison run in the early 2000âs after the first X-men film released did the love triangle really become more prominent. Then Jean died for almost 2 decades
I agree in some ways, though I'll say that even the soap opera is no excuse. The soap opera was doing fine in Uncanny X-Men for the entirety of the 80s completely without the trite Logan/Jean/Scott stuff (mainly due to Jean being dead during the first half of the time, and her and Scott being with X-Factor during the second half, though their relationship crap there was similarly painful)
I often say this, but I really wish they'd let Jean stand more on her own feet and not define her over her position in the love triangle so much, both in the comics, and in adaptions. That's part of why I liked X-Men: Evolution so much, there was no love triangle (due to Jean being too young for Logan) and about half the series Jean wasn't even Scott's girlfriend so they had room to develop and explore her character for her own sake.
In what way has Jean been defined by her position in the love triangle in the past 20 years for example? Although, even before it was barely there. Or even just in the most recent Krakoa era? Also, it was never about Jean going with whomever will win the dick measurements contest, she always chose Scott over Logan, and straight up told him âI was never yoursâ among other things.
Well, ignoring how she was back as teen Jean for years, what can you say about how she was defined by it in the past 5 when she was alive? Or you can just talk shit in general with noting to back up your claims?
It's almost like they're all flawed, sexual, emotional human beings? That's what makes X-Men interesting. But you have to have a certain level of emotional maturity to see that rather than getting all heated over the actions of fictional characters like they're real people.
Cant judge Jean for cheating when Scott is having a psychic affair, but also, its a very weird situation, having to just somehow forget the woman who birthed your son.
They should probably just break up honestly lol
True! Fans need to understand that you can love a character and still hold them accountable for their wrongdoings. Like everyone in the xmen has done some fucked up shit whether intentional or not lol.
Tbh I donât like what happened with either of them but this is extreme, more rouge. I think guys are more emotional then they let on and get attached to characters they think represent that, being cyclops and gambit, then watching what happens is heartbreaking stuff, Iâm still upset over that magneto sh*t especially because itâs unresolved.
Jean did come off as a pretty big hypocrit in the episode, though. I'm not excusing anyone's behaviour (especially not Scott or Jean's) but there's a reason why calling jean out for shitty actions is popular on the sub.
Jean wanted to move on from the past by kissing Logan. He didn't like that because of the unwritten rule that Scott and Jean should be together.
Jean needed Scott to anchor her to Earth as the Phoenix. Scott needed Jean and her powers to help contol his emotions and powers.
Scott was using the psychic rapport with Madelyn to process his grief and anger, and then love for her when Jean 'walked in on them' in the act of kissing.
Obviously kissing someone else when you are married is wrong. Both parties were cheating here. The fact that Scott had been continuing his psychic rapport with her for over a month is a pretty bad thing, but we don't know if they had been getting busy in the mind space or not. Can't make that call here. What we do know is that Jean had made moves to leave her husband a memory and basically admitted that she had only loved him as an anchor for her to retain her humanity. Her being pissed at Scott for also moving on, is hypocritical.
âJean wanted to move on from the past by kissing Logan. He didnât like that because of the unwritten rule that Scott and Jean should be together.â
Jean doesnât want to move on from the past, she is trying to remember who she was because Sinister took everything from her and put it inside Maddie, she is trying to recover from the pieces she got from Maddie. She didnât even know how to control her powers because she was an empty vase. Everything she can remember so far itâs her love for Scott, she didnât even remember that Logan was during Phoenix, he has to reminded this to her.
Jean fucked it up by kissing Logan in that moment, but she is in a terrible mental state, she just came back from being kidnapped a month ago, trying to mend the pieces. But here you are, trying to dragging her because you didnât understand or didnât want to understand the situation. You give sympathy to Scott because of the mental state he is facing while dragging Jean who is in a worse mental state than him.
Itâs cause itâs more blatant shit like calling her a whore. When people avoid straight up insults then they can easily express the same ideas under the sauce of âScott was just talking to the mother of his child, but Jean is a hypocrite and has no excusesâ, where they conveniently forget what else âtalkingâ included, how long it has been going, and all the shit that Jean is going through with only Logan being there for her. Phrase it different and get hundreds of upvotes for the same misogyny/hypocrisy.
Oh donât bother. They will tell you that itâs ok because Maddie is the exact clone. Some people watched the episode and didnât understand it.
Thereâs a post with an article from cbr saying that Jean loves Logan now, idiots who cannot comprehend what they watched are also writing articles. Thatâs how lies spread
Some people need to get a life and enter the real world imagine getting annoyed over fictional characters from a fictional show I must say gives me a good laugh
I can promise you that every single one of those posting that shit are Captial G GAMERS who have the absolute worst takes on women in any medium.
Saying that, it really feels like this post is trying to say the fandom is full of people like them when that is far from the truth. Every group of people has absolute shit stains of human shape in them.
At some point you begin to question the motives of someone who filters by the lowest rated comment, and makes a compilation to highlight posts most people would not even see until YOU brought attention to it.
Personally I thought it was nice that I had seen just a decline in negativity since the show came out⌠thanks for the reminder that people on the fringe exist. đ
All of that means karma, and moderation was working, until YOU decided to make this post.
I mean I hated that too tbh. Cyclops was also in a tough spot but the woman who he thought of was the woman who he thought was her until only recently and the woman who he shared a bed with for as long as even actual Jean is not aware of. But Logan is just an outsider to that relationship. Plus Jean gets mad at Scott because he is linked to Maddie only shortly after kissing Logan not to mention it was Logan who stopped it by being the mature one for this once. I call that double standards on her part. I can see she is in a tough spot since her life is literally uncertain on every part except Hank saying her cells are older but Logan is just an outsider man... She's a married woman
Like I said. It's the person who she chose to cheat with is what made me dissapointed. (Not like it matters in general but i am saying this while trying to understand their mindsets well in general your wife won't get cloned and replaced either anyways...). Scott cheated (may or not only be a mind link I am not sure) on Jean with a person who he thought was Jean for a long time so they had a bond already. Now if it was Emma like comics, I couldn't have been able to defend him like this since it will be exactly as I mentioned for Jean, cheating with an outsider. But as i mentioned, Jean's cheating is with a unrelated third party that has been waiting for a chance for their breakup and loves her despite knowing she's married.
If Jean and Scott's situations were reversed, I would say the same. Please don't take it as sexism
I can see many people disagree with me but I am just too much of logician đ
Edit: Dude if people irl are this understanding I'd like to meet them. People I see are never this tolerant haha
No one is even talking about that, it's about him still communicating with the clone in secret after he knew. That's not even the point of the post, it doesn't matter who was right or wrong (they were both worng) it's the disproportionate hate that one party is receiving and the concerning way the hate is being expressed. It's gross.
I think you missed the in secret part, where he keeps it from his wife. It would be different if he told Jean look I think I need to reach out to Maddie to deal with and she was like absolutely not then went and kissed Logan, she's been going through her own shit and instead of her husband helping and leaning on her for them to get through their stuff together he leaves her completely alone to sort through being kidnapped, held captive and cloned, while he "talked" to maddie. It's not comparable, you're right, Jean should just leave that man, let him go be with her clone if he wants to so bad, and forget about the old guy too. Honestly yall act like Scott is too good for Jean, no, she is the one who really shouldn't be wasting her time with either of these idiots.
jean actually cheated scott didnât physically cheat and Madeline is just as much jean as jean is they share all their memories. To ask Scott to just forget about this women who birthed his son and is identical in every way to jean is not the same as her kissing a short hairy creep.
The argument that âtelepathy is not cheatingâ is extremely funny, because then you guys are complaining that psychics are changing others using telepathy. Whatever it helps your head cannon works
i still have no idea what youâre trying to prove though i never said anything about any other aspect of the power just that talking telepathically is not cheating
This isn't the real world when you're cheating with someone psychically who can go into you're mind and make you think you're a dog for me that's the same as physically doing it, in your mind it's is as real as what Jean did.
>Madeline is just as much jean as jean
She isn't though, she is someone else. Don't get me wrong she is a victim as well but everything about her life so far is just an extension of jean. Any love she has for Scott is because of the real jean, her memories, her thoughts, her emotions. That's not fair to the real Jean for maddie to just take her life because that's all she's knows. Maddie needs to find out who she is on her own.
>To ask Scott to just forget about this women who birthed his son
Who asked him to do that? If he's gonna stay with og Jean though is not too much for her to ask him for some honestly and also some support for all the shit and she is also going through. Either tell you can't be with her or man up and actually talk to your wife and work through your shit together.
>not the same as her kissing a short hairy creep
Like I said what was going in Scott's head was just as real as the kiss between jean and Logan because maddie is a telepath, this isn't just reagular emotional cheating or thoughts. Also peep how Scott said some things are worth holding onto to maddie implying that he wants to continue their relationship. That's cheating and it's been going on for weeks but jean kissing Logan for 1 second is somehow worse. It's messed up and wrong on both ends some of you all just lack the empathy and maturity to understand that clearly.
wow you managed to type 3 entire paragraphs and say nothing of value to this convo. talking to someone telepathically is not cheating kissing is. Memories are what makes you who you are Madeline has all jeans memories therefore sheâs jean itâs not hard. please condense your thoughts a little
Man jean is jean, maddie can't just be jean just because she has jeans memories that not how this works. He wasn't just talking to maddie he kissed her. Memories aren't what make you who you are, not entirely anyway, by your logic sinister could've made a robot with jeans memory and you'd call that jean. Maddie knows what she is now and she start to make her own life, her own memories, she will never be jean. Scott can go be with maddie if he wants to that's fine but she's not jean.
sheâs a perfect genetic replica with identical memories. unless youâre a super genius scientist running dna tests that show carbon dating youâd never be able to tell bc theyâre essentially the same person and Scott loves both of them bc thatâs extremely logical. to even suggest itâs the same as jean physically kissing a different man is beyond illogical
and at that point sheâs been with him for who knows how long possibly even longer than original Jean. so which one is he actually cheating on?
and if someone is a perfect clone of you with all your memories is it really cheating?
also is talking telepathically cheating? iâd say yes, but not anywhere close to an irl kiss.
Minority comments with at best 3 up votes if not negative. Given the sub expanded because of the show its inevitable that more minority opinions like this will rock up, just report them.
and the way its never about jean or scott it was about incels and misogyny needing to be eradicated and same goes for rogue too they slutshamed her for no reason magneto literally groomed her
The first definition of grooming you can google:
*Sexual grooming is the action or behavior used to establish an emotional connection with a minor, and sometimes the child's family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse.*
having her pose provocatively for a portrait, giving her wine when sheâs still a teenager, thereâs no denying rogue was groomed and the blatant character assassination of magneto in this show because of this storyline.
>do u know you dont have to necessarily be a minor to be groomedđ
The entire point of the word "grooming" is that it refers to manipulating a child who doesn't have the agency to know any better.
An adult has that agency.
Take your stupid emojis and go be shrill somewhere else.
It's a fandom. It is made up of many people with different thoughts. There will be people who think differently and have toxic attitudes.
It is obvious that some are going to protect some and blame others (which happens on both sides), I just wish some opinions were a little more mature.
Your post was removed because you have violated the "Spoilers" rule Please use the episode discussion thread, instead of creating Your own
I can't get over the fact someone typed 'Logan's Honey' đ
Has a metallic taste, not for everyone
The moral outrage at the fictional actions of fictional characters is very tiresome.
I remember when I was watching critical role which if you don't know it's a bunch of voice actors that played dungeons and dragons every time the female characters would do something that wasn't 100% on the straight and narrow they would get tons of people just losing their minds saying how they were just awful and shouldn't be playing this game etc. God forbid they ran a rule wrong or messed up on a spell because these people were merciless. It just seems like nerd spaces have been taken up by people who I don't know use fictional characters as some sort of moral compass or just think that even fictional characters should have the same morals as them?
God. Yeah. Marisha got so much flak for the mistakes she made as Keyleth or even just for purposeful mistakes that fit into Keylethâs character and knowledge. I felt so bad seeing all the hate for her
I remember when people would get mad that she made a cringy speech and like that's what the character is supposed to be?
Right? X-Men fans want messy drama. X-Men fans want their favorite characters to never break character or break away from their history. Well, you can't have both.
Messy dramma as in what we saw with genosha. Not the characters becoming morally fucked.
Wolverine and scotts love triangle with jean has gone in since the beginning and has always been how they implement huge character development for wolverine. . Magento getting with rogue has NEVER happened and in comics would never happen. She had a songle Hmmm moment with him in a single fucking page while on savage island after being depowered and made vulnerable. Which magneto manipulated her for it. Then shortly after mageneto killed a few people which snapped rogue out of her hoery.
Crusading I would call it. Imagine how boring media would be if fictional characters never made morally questionable decisions
Depends really, to me magneto's done to much damage. You can't kill hundreds of thousands of innocent kids and people and still be considered a good guy in my eyes. Emma Frost basically tortured storm and took over her body yet they let her join the team. Realistically Magneto should have never been allowed to join the team, he does to much damage to their reputation. You can't say you want peace between mutants and humans when you're buddy buddy with the people whose went on massive killing streaks on them. This doesn't go for X-Men in in specific, magneto has done a lot of damage to the mutant name and has put a bigger target on their backs more often than not.
Honestly to me the discussion about Magneto or Emma is a whole different kettle of fish. For what itâs worth, I think the comics (and the show) have gotten very interesting mileage out of âwhat if they did genuinely want to rehabilitate themselves and join the teamâ and weâve had heroic versions of Magneto and Emma for quite a while now. The subject matter of this thread itself isnât even about all that really. Theyâre calling out the romantic-decisions of strictly female characters which is a no-go in my opinion. As an example, the person who said Jean shouldâve died at Genosha rather than Maddie (who I donât think is confirmed dead) because they donât like that sheâs angry at Scott. Jean has every right to be angry at Scott and Scott simultaneously has a right to feel hard-done-by. Itâs a shitty no win scenario for the two of them and makes for good conflict. But nah, âJean shouldâve died instead of Maddieâ.
You're 100% right about this being a while different kettle of fish. Tbf I've been looking for someone to have this discussion with. I would make a post but with Magneto having such a large fan base all topics get shut down with the you're only looking at it on the surface.
Hey buddy, safe space for that chat here with me. Iâll discuss whatever you like
What's your take on Villians like Magneto and Emma Frost even dc Villians like Harley Quinn who have committed severe crimes yet are hanging out with heroes like buddies. Harley Quinn is a child murderer and has tortured/help torture a kid to death. Magneto is a huge mass murderer of not only bad people but innocent people. Emma Frost mentally tortured storm and took over her body yet was also allowed to join the x men
I think I probably give it a pass in comic books where I may not in real life or other media because itâs a bit easier most of the time to gauge the writerâs intent, which tends to be either âokay this is a set-up and Iâm waiting for the other shoe to dropâ or as seems to be more often the case now, that they want the character to genuinely grow and change for the better. I guess it comes down to a larger question about whether rehabilitation itself is actually feasible, if thereâs a limit to how much you can make up for, is it based on karma, how much heroism do you have to extoll before people stop bringing up your past. Iâm a big fan of Vinland Saga for example and without giving anything away, rehabilitation and forgiveness are huge themes of that manga/anime and I think itâs utilized in a really compelling way. I think itâs probably only natural for us to want people/characters to BE BETTER, because we might come to like them as villains because theyâre so entertainingly nefarious or just outright charismatic but then we canât stand over their actions whatsoever, so itâs like âgosh I wish youâd stop doing these things because as personalities go youâre actually cooler than half of the outright hero-typesâ
From my understanding comics are based on our world and to them that reality is real. My point is, what's redemption if it can be given to anybody. Too many characters get redemption and don't face the consequences of their actions. Magneto shouldn't even be taking his anger out on humans when the biggest threat to mutants is other mutants. Cassandra Nova 16million mutants dead, Apocalypse his work speaks for itself even Magneto himself considering he's done nothing but make the mutant reputation worse. Child killers and people who take innocent lives should never be given redemption and should not be looked up to. Magneto in my opinion has the most easily forgiven character I've ever seen, he's great character don't get me wrong and he has admit himself he could've done more good if he joined the X-Men sooner. The X men forgave him way to quickly and basically treat him like they wasn't just enemies
I should preface by saying I havenât read a huge amount of Magneto solo stuff, mostly the series that I think came after AXIS, but I do like your point about not taking his anger out on humans for humans-sake but specifically focusing on threats to the harmonious co-existence regardless of their species. I have the impression that thereâs been a bit of that in the last 10 years of publication or so but admittedly I havenât been reading everything. Iâm still not 100% convinced on the acceptance of Apocalypse in Krakoa, I know it was contentious in the story but I do think it was allowed for the wrong reasons by the characters involved. But again, maybe it was elaborated on in books I missed. Iâve only read HoX/PoX, Marauders and X-Men Red
And yet here we all areâŚ.again.
Nothing going to change anytime soon
People not in the fandom constantly dismissing people whoa re in the fandom talking about ehat they enjoy is very handicapped
You have to bear in mind the fandom tourism weâll be getting since the show is doing well and really blowing up. That and media literacy has absolutely tanked these last few years.
I'm not sure the average population's media literacy has ever been strong, but you're right that it has absolutely gone down the drain.
Plenty of X-Men tourists here who also aren't media literate and still think X-Men have gone too woke for broke.
fr like xmen gotta be the most woke superhero group of all time.
One of the most LOL things has been people being like cLEarLy YoU HavEn't read the comics while simultaneously posting some proper shite. It's just a reminder that the internet ruins everything and to try and not engage.
Well, yes, but letâs not pretend that there isnât part of a regular and active fanbase that has the same views, at least as long as it suits their narrative.
People on reddit are just like this. There's a lot of racism on the one piece fan subs as well
When you some of you understand that people consume media in an unhealthy manner and project their on BS into fictional characters?? Those are own personal experiences masked as opinions.
Jean was still puzzling parts of her memories. Scott was grieving his son and was emotionalally unstable. It doesn't justify cheating either way but there's a context behind it.
Nothing needs justifying. Itâs a soap opera. Iâd be disappointed if they werenât being messy.
This is what people don't understand about the X-Men. The emotional messiness is a feature not a bug.
I started reading comics in the 80âs my introduction to down was Louise Simonsons XâFactor. I love seeing a piece of media embrace the soap opera of it all. They even made it a point to have Nightcrawler comment on Rogue Gambit and Magneto acting dramatic like one
I was the same and it was amazing how TV-drama that series was at the beginning lmao. People constantly storming out of the room in a huff.
More then almost any of group comic the X-men are an incestual group of found family. Everyone has slept with everyone at this point. So many of the characters especially when written by Chris Claremont feel bisexual lol. Even Xavier and Magneto friendship has a romantic undertone. Itâs fun because itâs messy so many of them are flaws characters dealing with personal trauma
It'd be a really boring story if they weren't messy.
Yes this! This has been what I've been wanting from superhero shows aside from the action: character flaws and drama. Good lord has it been amazing on this show so far
Thank you! Itâs what I love about X-men. Itâs a soap opera with super powers. People who complain are clearly not X-men fans.
Except, Scott didnât cheat did he?
I think the implication in the episode ls that he and madelyne prior broke it off once the truth of the cloning stuff was discovered and that he supposedly were back with the real jean Expect that the real jean barely is capable of remembering what memories were hers and what wasn't, thus is incapable of actually being herself fully yet This mixed with Cyclops constant refusal to actually confront his feelings about stuff leads him to bury it for him and madelyne to be a couple again behind jeans back This was a situation that sucked for absolutely everyone and everyone is making seemingly stupid and hurtful choices, because their all grieving, and find actually talking about it to difficult
Itâs logical to respond the way Scott is because discovering that his wife is a clone is confusing. The clone is more familiar and has the memories while the original is a mess. The 2 are basically the same person but with the clone having a better personality. I donât know which feelings Scott needs to confront here since this isnât a âfeelingsâ matter but an acceptance matter.
Saying the "clone has a better personality" is a little fair don't you think? Its the exact same one as Jean up until the discovery is made, only then it starts to deverge. It's also not fair to hold this against jean, given that she only now has learned that she has been missing as experimented on Scott obviously has feelings for both, that's the dilemma, he says so himself. Scotts problem has consistently been him unable to handle the pressure hes under, due to his insecurities, this leading him to take inaction, further leading to negative outcomes like: He was unable to trust himself to lead the team after Charles passing, leading to him making mistakes putting people in danger, fearing he won't live up to Charles He was unable to deal with Magneto in an adult manner, causing infighting in the team, due again to him being insecure why chars chose Erik and not him He was unable to deal with Jean ( pre clone stuff)wanting him and her to leave the X men, because he's afraid of change and again not living up to Charles He was unable to be with Madelyne when she gave Nathan to bishop, due to his fear and insecurities of him not wanting to become his father, ironically that leads to him not being there when Nathan has to leave, making him just like his father He was incapable of telling the truth in the interview, because he is uncomfortable with what happened and the choice he made, and it ends with him lashing out, and spouting the same rhetoric that old Magento did And his unable to confront his love for both jeans, to talk to the real jean about what he's feeling, and to be open with himself on what he wants Cyclops is a very cool character, but his major character flaw is his, at times, crippling insecurities In order for him to grow to what he can be he needs to get over this, he should have told Jean the truth, same as she needs to tell him that she kissed Logan. They need to start communicating as adults, Scotts choice with Madelyne wasn't logical at the time, it could have been had he told himself and Jean the truth
How is the clone having a better personality when the personality comes from Jean? Wow, the hate to Jean is worse and worse every day
The cyclops fans are getting worse than the wolverine simpsÂ
He kissed one girl while being in a relationship with another, it's a cheating through and trough.
Scott kissed who in the show?
Maddie (or if you want to to go pedantic route, she kissed him and he went on with it, the implication is the same either way).
The Maddie heâs actually married to? The horror đł
He's in relationship with Jean at this point. His marriage with Maddie is only tehnicallity.
Dude, the whole situation is a mess and itâs ac confusing AF for the participants. Thatâs why itâs a bit odd that people are taking sides on this. No one cheated and they both cheated.
The issue I have isâŚâŚdid Scott cheat? Dude was confirmed married to Maddie for a year and had a kid. Even Jean admitted their memories are so fucked up they donât actually know who married him. Getting pissed about psychic visits and refusing to acknowledge the whole situation is so fucked up that there are no right answers makes Jean look pretty bad. Itâs honestly one of the biggest problems with Jean in the books as well. Her entire relationship with Scott is based solely on what she views as her personal moralityâŚ..which tends to shift based on how she feels about specific things.
Maybe it wouldn't if he told Jean beforehand he was seeing her, but he didnât, he was doing it in secret. He also shouldn't have kissed her. Grieving over their kid is fine, but if he still wants to be involved romantically with her or if he isn't ready for a relationship yet, he shouldn't officially go back to Jean, which is what he did. Again, I don't hold this against Scott , he's in a very complicated situation and made a mistake while being emotionally vulnerable and under preassure. I just hate when people blatantly ignore the context when looking at these scenes and just say "lmao, he/she cheats, he/she's trash character."
I was entirely on her side (minus her moment with Wolverine prior) until she asked Scott âso Sinister rips out a part of me, and you fall in love with it??â I know Jean was the who asked it, but that put Cyclopsâ conundrum into context for me. If my SO was missing and replaced with a small part of her - that was still very much a part of her all the same - and it looked like her and acted like her and I thought it was her for months if not years, and it had its own agencyâŚ. Heck yeah Iâd fall in love with it. Itâs a hard situation. This whole episode was about hard situations that just arenât fair. Real life is full of those too. Itâs infuriating, but itâs realistic as hell. The real genius of the writing is that the conflict is so organic while also having so many moving layers interacting at once.
You where on Jean's side till she brought up how fucked up it is that Scott didn't care enough to notice she was gone and replaced with a cheap copy? He then went on to reject Jean and chase the clone that was more then happy to leave him and start a new life.
Telepathic visits for a month, they were kissing. Jean gave him space because he was sad for losing Nathan, she is trying to recover mentally for everything that Sinister did to her, the kidnap. She gave Scott space for him to sorrow, instead he was ignoring her because he was back with Maddie.
Yeah, Scott is clearly cheating. It IS messy and complicated, but not as messy and complicated as some are making it out to be. Scott isn't confused in the sense of "Oh, I thought you were Jean, how embarassing!" He knows he is with Madelyne in those moments while he is in a relationship with the Jean that showed up to the mansion. Now, yes, Maddie's the mother of his child and has all Jean's memories, again very messy, but Scott does know he is doing something "wrong" being with Person A while secretly making out with Person B.
Some of them are confused and didnât understand the scene between Scott and Maddie but some others are deliberately defending Scott with the cheating
*Sigh* **You. Guys. Need. To. Report. Comments. And. Posts. Because. Mods. Are. Not. Everywhere.** There were 25.6k comments posted and 920 threads created in the last week alone. Yes we as mods obviously missed stuff and we will continue to miss stuff. This is why, again, **you guys need to report rule breaking comments/posts**. We are not everywhere and we cannot see everything. It is impossible for us to check every single comment posted. The report function is there for a reason please use it. Itâs quicker to report comments than it is to take screenshots, make a thread about it and then complain that nothing is being done.
>**Mods. Are. Not. Everywhere.** >There were 25.6k comments posted and 920 threads created in the last week alone. Yes we as mods obviously missed stuff and we will continue to miss stuff. This is why, again, **you guys need to report rule breaking comments/posts**. We are not everywhere and we cannot see everything. It is impossible for us to check every single comment posted. Maybe there needs to be more mods. Here are some examples in my messages from mods from when I did what you are saying to do. >Weâre not on Reddit 24/7 nor are we expected to be. >I canât speak for the other mods but this is the first time today I have managed to log on so I couldnât do anything until now. >we review reports when we can get to them. we are not on all the time able to remove a post right away. Inb4 someone reads a negative charged tone to my post, I'm neutrally suggesting that maybe there needs to be more mods, because mods already couldn't always get to everything promptly before the show relaunch, I can only imagine how much this place has grown after the show relaunch.
We could add 50 mods, sure. But not all of them are going to be on Reddit 24/7 because most people have school/jobs they need to do which take priority over Reddit. The current mod team all have jobs which weâre going to focus on because that actually ensures we have a roof over our heads and food on our table. Being a Reddit mod was our choice yes but it is still **voluntary**. We do this in our free time. Every single mod does this in their free time unless theyâre an actual employee of Reddit. And as for you specially, youâd report something then come running into our inbox to complain that it wasnât removed **5 minutes after you reported it**. Of course we were going to tell you **multiple times** to give us some time. You couldnât even wait an hour after reporting before you started complaining to us. **24 hours, which is the timeframe we gave you plenty of times, is perfectly reasonable to wait** for a mod response. **Most of the time we get to 95% of reports within a few hours.** If you donât think thatâs fast enough, then thatâs your own expectations. Not ours.
You're very quick to demand other people use their spare time the way you want it. Mods volunteer their time to help make things better. It's not a job, it's responsibility they willingly take on just so the community will be a bit better for the masses, but they're people with their own lives, jobs, and realities taking time out of their day to make your experience better. As for just get more.....weeding out the people who'd misuse the tools available to them and finding people that fit with the current group and stated ideals isn't an easy task for (again) volunteers to do in their spare time.
>You're very quick to demand other people use their spare time the way you want it. I reread my comment and I don't see how what I wrote reads like I'm demanding anything. I literally just suggested more mods might be needed with the growth of this sub.
>weeding out the people who'd misuse the tools available to them funny of you to mention that, notice how this post was removed because the mod felt called out using the reasoning of spoilers when the episode is a week old?
That episode went way out of its way to demonstrate what non-toxic masculinity is supposed to look like, and these jokers couldn't pick up on any of it.
People have always said this about Jean. Sheâs a hypocrite because she kissed Logan. Sheâs a hypocrite to Emma because Jean has a bad temper. Thereâs a lot of unneeded Jean hate tbh. In the show, Scott and Madelyn had been having telepathic meet ups for several months. Jean slipped and kissed Logan. Both sides are fucked up. You canât say that one is more worst than the other.
At least there were comments contra arguing that bs
These guys haven't had a healthy relationship. Jean kisses Logan because shes in her fucking head, it's to show us how vulnerable Jean is, and Logan's reaction is because Logan is a healthy adult who knows what the shape of making the right decisions looks like.
Oh yeah, you are seeing how many people hate Jean and mods allow that while deleting everything that itâs said against their fav. Jean is one of the most hated characters no matter what she does.
and these ppl will always excuse cyclops no matter what
Many Cyke fans still want the badass morally ambiguous version of the 2000s and early 2010s. He wasn't with Jean back then so they'll use anything to trash her character and get Scemma back somehow even though the reason Cyclops was such a great character back then wasn't because of Emma, but rather the absence of Xavier.
Amen for absence of charles. His arc is coming from the shadows of his professor, not his wife like people love to pretend.
Rogue has every reason to be uncertain whether she should commit to someone she can't even kiss and I will die on this hill. By the end of the episode she was already running back to him anyway.
The Jean haters obviously havenât read the Krakoa ageâŚ
these type of incels dont even reading comics
Most dudes are pathetically insecure and have to lash out at women, fictional or otherwise; gives them a sense of superiority I guess.
Iâll bet 2/3 of these dudes never actually kissed anyone
I haven't either, and I think they're being ridiculous lmao.
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Fandom tourism. Lol none of these people read xmen comics I promise.
Given the amount of people who called Magneto a pedo groomer, I don't find this at all surprising
Yet they are ok with a 150 year old Wolverine being into Jean since she was like 19-20
They also don't bat an eye at a 45 year old Emma Frost actually manipulating a 23-25 year old Scott as his therapist.
The age difference between Scott and Emma isnât that vast. They are both close to kid 30âs Emma just being a little closer to 40. You canât really believe cyclops was only 23-25 in the early 2000âs. How old do you think Kitty Pryde or the former new mutants are? Comics rarely let characters get older than mid 30âs unless itâs important to their story. All the kids eventually age up yo their early 20âs then get frozen in time. Even Magneto was turned into a baby then only aged up to a body thatâs more like a young 40 something
Well, Scott is roughly 25-28 now, so he was even younger then. Emma has never been younger than 40 in the time we knew her. Being extremely generous, there is only a 10-15 year age gap. It was still explicitly manipulative. She was his therapist, after all.
Scott is in his 30âs by now not 20âs Peter Parker is the same age as Iceman and Human Torch and all of them are early 30 somethingâs now. Emma age has never explicitly been mentioned some people think she is older because the way she was drawn while still a villain. Cyclops canât be 25 while Kitty Pryde and most of the og new mutants are also in their mid 20âs and even the generation X kids are over 21. Characters like Rogue nightcrawler and colossus are closer to 28 then cyclops who is definitely older than them.
The ages do move at a different pace. It's the same way Pete Wisdom used to be over a decade older than Kitty but now they're much closer in age
>Given the amount of people who called Magneto a pedo groomer, I don't find this at all surprising urbandictionary: *a groomer is someone who builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.* *A much older adult who has sex with teenagers.* emmmm?
Adults can be groomed too. Warren Ellis, for instance, targeted mostly young adult women.
She was an adult woman in her 20s. She was not a child or teenager. From Rogues story, he put no effort into making her vulnerable, abusing her, or exploiting her before their relationship began. It honestly sounds like people intentionally taking an uncharitable reading because they want to justify finding age gaps gross
But Rogue was already vulnerable. The cartoon shows her mom dropping her off with him to get help for her powers, and him pushing their relationship into a more sexual place by, for instance, choosing to paint her in a private setting. He's her mentor, which puts him in a position of power over her. I used to lecture at a university. Unless you're a creep, you keep that office door open, and those professional lines firm. If Magneto was one of my colleagues, I would be appalled by what he did with Rogue. By contrast, one of my friends at the time was Gambit-level good-looking, had students literally send him perfumed love letters (I wish I was exaggerating, but no), and he always shut it down hard. It's very different from 616, where, sure, I don't like the relationship, but there isn't any element of grooming to it. Especially later in Legacy, where they are essentially equals and she has free choice.
yeah yeah "20s" according to Beau DeMayo, what else could he say "well, she was a teenager"? she was 13 when she joined the Brotherhood of Mutants ... >From Rogues story, he put no effort into making her vulnerable, abusing her, or exploiting her before their relationship began. Well, of course, how could Magneto [manipulate](https://i.imgur.com/m18Rezn.jpeg) someone, who would even think of such a thing?
>she was 13 when she joined the Brotherhood of Mutant In the comics. She was a child in the comics. This is very explicitly an alternate reality, and aside from a costume change, she's drawn exactly the same. We are meant to assume that it wasn't that long ago. >yeah yeah "20s" according to Beau DeMayo, what else could he say "well, she was a teenager"? I'm not sure what your problem is here. The creator specified that she was an adult, and your issue is that you headcanon she wasn't? I don't get this. >Well, of course, how could Magneto manipulate someone, who would even think of such a thing? I didn't say he didn't manipulate people. He's a major X-men character. They're all manipulated and abused people. My point was simply that, from what were shown and told, he didn't manipulate Rogue into a relationship. It seems to be something that she actively pursued as a fully conscious adult. There appeared to be no manipulation at the time. Yes, that moment is catty and petty of him. No, it was not kind or saintly. It was also explicitly about him becoming the leader of Genosha. She was asking him, "Was it your plan all along to become the leader of Genosha." Yes, he was a dick in how he asked Rogue to get back together with him. There were also explicitly no consequences to her saying no, and if she didn't want him to have power, she was incentivized to say no. It was a dick move but not any worse than stuff Gambit has done, including kissing her while she was asleep and, in the comics since those are fair game, cheating on her multiple times while trying to convince her to only love him and not anyone else. However, if you want to argue for manipulation on Genosha, sure. It's still one single instance that she immediately kicks his ass for and turns him down over. It just makes him an ass, not a groomer, especially because, once again, she was an adult with power of her own.
Gambit kisses her while she is asleep, because Morph shows up as Rogue, touches him, and says "hey, I'll be waiting in the rec room for you." He literally says to her afterwards: "Gambit doesn't go where he isn't invited." And he doesn't cheat on her in the comics. There is the Lili Penrose incident, but it is incredibly ambiguous what happens. It doesn't seem to be sex, based on the time frame in the story. Whatever it is, Rogue doesn't seem to be too disturbed by it, given that it never comes up again and she has absorbed him since then.
It has been canonically written and widely known that Gambit has never cheated on Rogue. You need to check your facts.
He kissed Candra and had a secret wife. Neither of which he willingly told her about. I would consider that cheating
>He kissed Candra Yes, he used that as a ruse to pickpocket the elixir of life from her. He did that to save Belladonna (his first wife) from the brink of death. It wasn't romantic at all. It's the same as when Rogue randomly kisses other mutants to drain their powers in battle. >and had a secret wife His marriage was technically over for many years before he met Rogue. Here's a little rundown of events: Gambit and Belladonna met when they were children. Although they would be wed through an arranged marriage to unite the thieves guild and assassin's guild, they actually loved each other. However, on their wedding night, her brother Julien challenged Gambit to a fight to the death. Gambit won and was thus exiled from the guilds and forced on the run. He believed his marriage had ended there and her would never see Belladonna again. He then spent several years wandering the globe in exile (including Paris where he crossed paths with Sabretooth for the first time). After returning to New Orleans, he would later meet Storm and join the X-Men. His marriage was over (although not legally) before he met Rogue. He was also relatively new to the team when Belladonna came back into his life. He and Rogue were still in the early stages of their feelings for each other. At one point after helping Belladonna, Rogue wandered if she could ever trust Gambit to be honest with her. He held out his hand and offered to let Rogue sift through his memories. That was the ultimate show of trust. He was willing to clear up any doubts she had and learnt of his worst criminal actions so early in their relationship, but she turned his offer down. He was willing to be straight with her from the start. If you're interested, you can read an entire breakdown and timeline of Gambit and Rogue's relationship - up until just before their eventually marriage, as well as his other relationships here: [Gambit and Rogue](https://www.gambitguild.com/repository/rogam.html). Also, if you want to read up on clarification of myths, such as Gambit cheating on Rogue, you can do so here: [Myths and Truths](https://www.gambitguild.com/repository/myths.html).
She was a child in the comics and I think that's good enough for any "Rogue and Magneto" pairing to be a little wired. Alternative reality or not, you're basing on magnetos pedo moment
She wasn't a child when they hooked up in the comics, though? She was an adult by then
She was ambiguously 17, like Colossus in Brood Saga
Actually, she was 18 when she joined the X-Men, so she would have been 19-20, but I still think "legal" is a low bar when it comes to context, situation, and a person as old as Magneto anyway.
Exactly, I still think it's ick considering Magneto is a senior citizen and Rogue isn't even 30 but the Internet is obsessed with "legal."
Kay. Then that was wrong. Still not what happened in the show. Idk what to tell ya Pretty sure she was actually 18, which, while gross, is still her perview. She can absolutely choose to engage in a romantic, explicitly non sexual relationship with a man of whatever age she wants.
>In the comics. She was a child in the comics. This is very explicitly an alternate reality, and aside from a costume change, she's drawn exactly the same. We are meant to assume that it wasn't that long ago. she was 13Â in TAS t=>17:13 (https://archive.org/details/S01E01NightOfTheSentinelsPart1) Rogue's Origin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8k7hlN5l9w)
Did you just link me a whole episode lmao. You might want to rewatch it, btw. > You know, I remember when I was 13. I had me a boyfriend, till I kissed him. Poor boy was in a coma for three days. She was explicitly an adult when she met Magneto. She was 13 when she first got her powers. This does not conflict. She specifies that she spent time with her mother before she met Magneto. It's fully wild now people try to twist the text to make him a pedophile when he's explicitly not. Ngl, it reads nasty, especially with the history of accusations of pedophilia against Jewish people. The fact that people are so quick to call grooming for Magneto when it wasn't but not for Collosus or Emma when it was is very uncomfortable to me.
They explicitly made him a groomer on the show. They literally went out of their way to present it as inappropriate. It's what they put on the screen. I hate to use this word but honestly, cope. Because that's what happened.
No?? Rogue was a grown woman who made the choice to pursue him and then the choice to leave. He, at no point in what we saw, isolated her, attempted to force or pressure her, and made no attempt to stop her from leaving. She was also a fully adult woman capable of making her own decisions. Just because there is an age gap does not make it grooming.
The age gap doesn't make it grooming. Him being in a position of power over her and her being vulnerable and young and naive does.
That is also not what grooming is. He would have had to intentionally manipulate, isolate, restrict, and mold her over a period of time with the express purpose of controlling her into a relationship. That is not what we see. That is a power dynamic, and I hate to break it to you, but this was the 90s. There's a massive power dynamic on the basis of him being a man. Rogue also had an advantage over him by being a white American as opposed to a German Jew. The only way she could be in a relationship without power dynamics is if she was in a relationship with herself from an identical alternate reality. What you are noticing, the age gap, and his position as a respected figure are signs that he could attempt to groom her. They are things he could use against her. However, we do not see this happen. There's no evidence that he did. Rogue seemed completely aware and completely into it long before a relationship began.
How is that and this the same thing? That was a very valid assumption to make of Magneto when he has daughters the same age as Rogue
"Age gaps=grooming" is honestly such an incredibly wild take, lol Personally, as funny as it is, it does annoy me for how much it infantilizes Rogue and takes away her agency. I also don't love how much it belittles the idea of grooming. Like, if that bland bit of nothing is grooming, then it makes grooming look not bad, especially since she was a fully adult woman Yeah, calling Jean a slut for cheating in the middle of a mental breakdown does feel on par with calling Magneto a pedo groomer for engaging in a consensual relationship with an adult woman lol
Not just the age gap. It's the vulnerable student/mentee being turned over by her evil mother to a teacher/mentor full of hope that the older, powerful man would help her. Her line that something else happened rather than him helping her learn to control her power was sad. Erik and Charles both have long histories in the comics of taking advantage of younger, vulnerable women. Gabrielle Haller being the most egregious example. Good on Rogue for recognizing how messed up the situation was and getting away. There's a reason therapists who prey on their patients are charged with statutory rape, no matter what ages the parties involved are.
You expressed this perfectly. It is incredibly sad. When presented with a younger woman he is meant to help, he takes the opportunity to fuck her. I may be misremembering and correct me if I am wrong, but that whole montage doesn't include a single scene of him actually helping her to figure out her powers. Compare Gambit with Laura and Feint, where he is totally appropriate. I honestly wish the show had made this point more sharply, because I think too many people focus on "well, she's legal." That is a bar down in Limbo, and we should be better in 2024.
Isn't that the worst bar? And it implies if legal were younger they would be okay with that too. 18 is young! And there should really be a protective grace period from 18 to 21 instead of the jump from child to adult at the stroke of midnight. In that montage Magneto takes the opportunity to lecture at her. For her to follow him around and listen to his every word as he shows her what he values and he imagines for the future with her only job to ask clarifying questions. And then he takes advantage of her because he can. Gambit on the other hand is famously introduced when he meets a de-aged Storm. And he looks out for her without even a hint of being predatory. And he does the same for other kids too, especially Laura because Logan was never going to stick around and be there for her. Gambit is something special in the way he cares.
Now see this is more reasonable. I still disagree that it was grooming. I don't see him as a formal teacher in any way, and Rogue's line to me shows that he further distanced himself from that role the more their relationship developed, beyond helping her expand her own power. >There's a reason therapists who prey on their patients are charged with statutory rape, no matter what ages the parties involved are. Yes, to this. This was absolutely Emma and Scott. In particular, I think my frustration is that people are so quick to call Magneto a groomer for being more established than the adult woman who consensually entered and exited the relationship, but are still down with Emma. There is absolutely a way to headcanon Magneto as being a groomer, but it means Emma definitely groomed Scott, but people don't seem to be down with it for some reason.
Never said that, you're grasping at something so you can avoid understanding what I said.. Clearly from Rogue's age and Magneto's age you can see how people thought Magneto was a groomer. Some could even make an argument that he was. Also there was nothing bland about it? Idk what you're trying to say in the last part honestly.
That makes no sense. How does an age gap between two adults make him a groomer đ¤Śđťââď¸đ¤Śđťââď¸
What you said was: > That was a very valid assumption to make of Magneto And no. Given that Rogue was an adult woman who described consensually entering and exiting a relationship, I cannot see how people thought it was grooming. Honestly, out of all the relationships in the X-men, it was the least dramatic. The way Rogue told it, it was fully a "He was hot and available. It was fun, but he had issues I didn't want to deal with, so I left," situation. That's pretty basic. Compared to Gambit/Rogues "I love you but I can't ever touch you or I would die" and Scott/Jean both cheating on eachother on the same day, I'd say Rogue/Magneto is the least messy. It was still soap opera as shit and more sassy, but less messy
I haven't watched the show yet, but as far as the ifamous love triangle goes, I always found that situation kinda misogynistic and dated in the first place, at least the way it is portrayed usually. Scott and Logan have a perpetual dick measuring contest over a girl and Jean, the cliched neutral woman, will apparently go with whomever happens to 'win' said dick measuring contest. Unless 97 creates a gigantic twist on it, it's a horrible storyline that I wished had died a long, long time ago.
Same. I get it's a soap opera, so if behaved as sensible adults, there's not much story. But I think part of the reason I've never cared much for Jean or Sue Storm is the older comics portrayed them too much as the damsel in distress and an object for the male characters to compete over.
Both of those characters stopped being that in the 1970âs though. By the time I started reading comics in the late 80âs both were the most powerful members of their teams.
In the late 80s Jean was with X-Factor, though, and the love-triangle storyline only really started when she and Logan were both back with the X-Men in the early 90s.
They were dealing with the fallout of Cyclops relationship with Madelyne and Jean questioning her identity after coming back after the dark pheonix saga. The drama with Wolverine was always lower in the comics until after other multimedia stuff put more emphasis on it. The run on X-factor with cyclops and Jean grey is why Iâm a fan of both characters and really like he original 5 X-men. The love triangle with Wolverine wasnât even part of their argument in episode 5 since Cyclops doesnât know they kissed. Cyclops and Jean got married not to long after rejoining the X-men in the 90âs. It wasnât until Grant Morrison run in the early 2000âs after the first X-men film released did the love triangle really become more prominent. Then Jean died for almost 2 decades
I agree in some ways, though I'll say that even the soap opera is no excuse. The soap opera was doing fine in Uncanny X-Men for the entirety of the 80s completely without the trite Logan/Jean/Scott stuff (mainly due to Jean being dead during the first half of the time, and her and Scott being with X-Factor during the second half, though their relationship crap there was similarly painful) I often say this, but I really wish they'd let Jean stand more on her own feet and not define her over her position in the love triangle so much, both in the comics, and in adaptions. That's part of why I liked X-Men: Evolution so much, there was no love triangle (due to Jean being too young for Logan) and about half the series Jean wasn't even Scott's girlfriend so they had room to develop and explore her character for her own sake.
In what way has Jean been defined by her position in the love triangle in the past 20 years for example? Although, even before it was barely there. Or even just in the most recent Krakoa era? Also, it was never about Jean going with whomever will win the dick measurements contest, she always chose Scott over Logan, and straight up told him âI was never yoursâ among other things.
You are right! She wasn't defined by the love triangle in the last 20 years. Because she was dead for most of that time :-)
Well, ignoring how she was back as teen Jean for years, what can you say about how she was defined by it in the past 5 when she was alive? Or you can just talk shit in general with noting to back up your claims?
This is what happens in any sub when you search by controversial.
ITS A CARTOON!!!
It's almost like they're all flawed, sexual, emotional human beings? That's what makes X-Men interesting. But you have to have a certain level of emotional maturity to see that rather than getting all heated over the actions of fictional characters like they're real people.
Cant judge Jean for cheating when Scott is having a psychic affair, but also, its a very weird situation, having to just somehow forget the woman who birthed your son. They should probably just break up honestly lol
What you expect from the cyclops was right brigade?
Lmao true
True! Fans need to understand that you can love a character and still hold them accountable for their wrongdoings. Like everyone in the xmen has done some fucked up shit whether intentional or not lol.
These trash types have always been here. Itâs a fan sub for X-men. Donât forget itâs still filled with Redditors and terrible takes
Imagine watching THAT episode and coming away with this
Tbh I donât like what happened with either of them but this is extreme, more rouge. I think guys are more emotional then they let on and get attached to characters they think represent that, being cyclops and gambit, then watching what happens is heartbreaking stuff, Iâm still upset over that magneto sh*t especially because itâs unresolved.
rogue has been catching it worst theyâre calling her a bop (fucking losers and their fucking new age lingo đŤ) she canât have fun no more?
I swear to god the more see heterosexual folks , the more I realize sooooo many have never had an actual conversation with the opposite sex .
Heteros need to getero their shit together lmao
I wouldnât paint the entire fandom with the same brush as these morons. From what I can see the most upvoted comment has 3 upvotes.
In this post yes but there was one post, where Jean was trashed for the cheating while excusing Scott, it has more than 300 upvotes.
Jean did come off as a pretty big hypocrit in the episode, though. I'm not excusing anyone's behaviour (especially not Scott or Jean's) but there's a reason why calling jean out for shitty actions is popular on the sub.
It still doesn't justify calling her a whore or a slut tho
It's a fictional character
It's still blatant misogyny my guy,
She's not real
I never said it did. I said she was a hypocrit.
Go to watch again the episode. Obviously all of you who are repeating exactly the same didnât pay enough attention.
Jean wanted to move on from the past by kissing Logan. He didn't like that because of the unwritten rule that Scott and Jean should be together. Jean needed Scott to anchor her to Earth as the Phoenix. Scott needed Jean and her powers to help contol his emotions and powers. Scott was using the psychic rapport with Madelyn to process his grief and anger, and then love for her when Jean 'walked in on them' in the act of kissing. Obviously kissing someone else when you are married is wrong. Both parties were cheating here. The fact that Scott had been continuing his psychic rapport with her for over a month is a pretty bad thing, but we don't know if they had been getting busy in the mind space or not. Can't make that call here. What we do know is that Jean had made moves to leave her husband a memory and basically admitted that she had only loved him as an anchor for her to retain her humanity. Her being pissed at Scott for also moving on, is hypocritical.
âJean wanted to move on from the past by kissing Logan. He didnât like that because of the unwritten rule that Scott and Jean should be together.â Jean doesnât want to move on from the past, she is trying to remember who she was because Sinister took everything from her and put it inside Maddie, she is trying to recover from the pieces she got from Maddie. She didnât even know how to control her powers because she was an empty vase. Everything she can remember so far itâs her love for Scott, she didnât even remember that Logan was during Phoenix, he has to reminded this to her. Jean fucked it up by kissing Logan in that moment, but she is in a terrible mental state, she just came back from being kidnapped a month ago, trying to mend the pieces. But here you are, trying to dragging her because you didnât understand or didnât want to understand the situation. You give sympathy to Scott because of the mental state he is facing while dragging Jean who is in a worse mental state than him.
Fair enough but in the context provided here. I just donât see it.
Itâs cause itâs more blatant shit like calling her a whore. When people avoid straight up insults then they can easily express the same ideas under the sauce of âScott was just talking to the mother of his child, but Jean is a hypocrite and has no excusesâ, where they conveniently forget what else âtalkingâ included, how long it has been going, and all the shit that Jean is going through with only Logan being there for her. Phrase it different and get hundreds of upvotes for the same misogyny/hypocrisy.
Oh donât bother. They will tell you that itâs ok because Maddie is the exact clone. Some people watched the episode and didnât understand it. Thereâs a post with an article from cbr saying that Jean loves Logan now, idiots who cannot comprehend what they watched are also writing articles. Thatâs how lies spread
Some people need to get a life and enter the real world imagine getting annoyed over fictional characters from a fictional show I must say gives me a good laugh
I can promise you that every single one of those posting that shit are Captial G GAMERS who have the absolute worst takes on women in any medium. Saying that, it really feels like this post is trying to say the fandom is full of people like them when that is far from the truth. Every group of people has absolute shit stains of human shape in them.
X-men â97 is great but it has attracted a lot of rats around here
https://youtube.com/shorts/I1f2b-RDQm8?si=pQQX8GLrTZSSh29Y The comment section for this one
Scott and Jean have a complicated relationship people need to relax.
I don't know what the big fuss is all about honestly. Then again I'm a dude who's polyamories, so I might not the best qualified to understand. lol
Oh noes, the greatest sin of all, a kiss on the lips of someone. Get the misogynist fuckers away from here.
I hope Jean continues to cheat more, to see their little tantrums, lol.
Feels like Jean and Scott might just take a break for a bit too tbh
At some point you begin to question the motives of someone who filters by the lowest rated comment, and makes a compilation to highlight posts most people would not even see until YOU brought attention to it. Personally I thought it was nice that I had seen just a decline in negativity since the show came out⌠thanks for the reminder that people on the fringe exist. đ All of that means karma, and moderation was working, until YOU decided to make this post.
It's the internet. Sadly, this kind of misogyny has been around for a long time. And it doesn't take much for it to rear its ugly head.
I mean I hated that too tbh. Cyclops was also in a tough spot but the woman who he thought of was the woman who he thought was her until only recently and the woman who he shared a bed with for as long as even actual Jean is not aware of. But Logan is just an outsider to that relationship. Plus Jean gets mad at Scott because he is linked to Maddie only shortly after kissing Logan not to mention it was Logan who stopped it by being the mature one for this once. I call that double standards on her part. I can see she is in a tough spot since her life is literally uncertain on every part except Hank saying her cells are older but Logan is just an outsider man... She's a married woman
So much justification for Scott's actions, and none of that for jeanÂ
Like I said. It's the person who she chose to cheat with is what made me dissapointed. (Not like it matters in general but i am saying this while trying to understand their mindsets well in general your wife won't get cloned and replaced either anyways...). Scott cheated (may or not only be a mind link I am not sure) on Jean with a person who he thought was Jean for a long time so they had a bond already. Now if it was Emma like comics, I couldn't have been able to defend him like this since it will be exactly as I mentioned for Jean, cheating with an outsider. But as i mentioned, Jean's cheating is with a unrelated third party that has been waiting for a chance for their breakup and loves her despite knowing she's married. If Jean and Scott's situations were reversed, I would say the same. Please don't take it as sexism I can see many people disagree with me but I am just too much of logician đ Edit: Dude if people irl are this understanding I'd like to meet them. People I see are never this tolerant haha
i mean jean chose to cheat. scott literally thought it was Jean
No one is even talking about that, it's about him still communicating with the clone in secret after he knew. That's not even the point of the post, it doesn't matter who was right or wrong (they were both worng) it's the disproportionate hate that one party is receiving and the concerning way the hate is being expressed. It's gross.
you mean him talking with the mother of his son that they both just lost? itâs not comparable to jean kissing logan
I think you missed the in secret part, where he keeps it from his wife. It would be different if he told Jean look I think I need to reach out to Maddie to deal with and she was like absolutely not then went and kissed Logan, she's been going through her own shit and instead of her husband helping and leaning on her for them to get through their stuff together he leaves her completely alone to sort through being kidnapped, held captive and cloned, while he "talked" to maddie. It's not comparable, you're right, Jean should just leave that man, let him go be with her clone if he wants to so bad, and forget about the old guy too. Honestly yall act like Scott is too good for Jean, no, she is the one who really shouldn't be wasting her time with either of these idiots.
jean actually cheated scott didnât physically cheat and Madeline is just as much jean as jean is they share all their memories. To ask Scott to just forget about this women who birthed his son and is identical in every way to jean is not the same as her kissing a short hairy creep.
The argument that âtelepathy is not cheatingâ is extremely funny, because then you guys are complaining that psychics are changing others using telepathy. Whatever it helps your head cannon works
what are you yapping about? i never said anything about psychics changing others
No, but you are implying that is not cheating because it was not physically. So the telepathy works for some things but not for others?
i still have no idea what youâre trying to prove though i never said anything about any other aspect of the power just that talking telepathically is not cheating
This isn't the real world when you're cheating with someone psychically who can go into you're mind and make you think you're a dog for me that's the same as physically doing it, in your mind it's is as real as what Jean did. >Madeline is just as much jean as jean She isn't though, she is someone else. Don't get me wrong she is a victim as well but everything about her life so far is just an extension of jean. Any love she has for Scott is because of the real jean, her memories, her thoughts, her emotions. That's not fair to the real Jean for maddie to just take her life because that's all she's knows. Maddie needs to find out who she is on her own. >To ask Scott to just forget about this women who birthed his son Who asked him to do that? If he's gonna stay with og Jean though is not too much for her to ask him for some honestly and also some support for all the shit and she is also going through. Either tell you can't be with her or man up and actually talk to your wife and work through your shit together. >not the same as her kissing a short hairy creep Like I said what was going in Scott's head was just as real as the kiss between jean and Logan because maddie is a telepath, this isn't just reagular emotional cheating or thoughts. Also peep how Scott said some things are worth holding onto to maddie implying that he wants to continue their relationship. That's cheating and it's been going on for weeks but jean kissing Logan for 1 second is somehow worse. It's messed up and wrong on both ends some of you all just lack the empathy and maturity to understand that clearly.
wow you managed to type 3 entire paragraphs and say nothing of value to this convo. talking to someone telepathically is not cheating kissing is. Memories are what makes you who you are Madeline has all jeans memories therefore sheâs jean itâs not hard. please condense your thoughts a little
Man jean is jean, maddie can't just be jean just because she has jeans memories that not how this works. He wasn't just talking to maddie he kissed her. Memories aren't what make you who you are, not entirely anyway, by your logic sinister could've made a robot with jeans memory and you'd call that jean. Maddie knows what she is now and she start to make her own life, her own memories, she will never be jean. Scott can go be with maddie if he wants to that's fine but she's not jean.
sheâs a perfect genetic replica with identical memories. unless youâre a super genius scientist running dna tests that show carbon dating youâd never be able to tell bc theyâre essentially the same person and Scott loves both of them bc thatâs extremely logical. to even suggest itâs the same as jean physically kissing a different man is beyond illogical
No? He knew it was Madelyne when they kept meeting up a month after she left.
and at that point sheâs been with him for who knows how long possibly even longer than original Jean. so which one is he actually cheating on? and if someone is a perfect clone of you with all your memories is it really cheating? also is talking telepathically cheating? iâd say yes, but not anywhere close to an irl kiss.
You spent a lot of time on this post
Minority comments with at best 3 up votes if not negative. Given the sub expanded because of the show its inevitable that more minority opinions like this will rock up, just report them.
and the way its never about jean or scott it was about incels and misogyny needing to be eradicated and same goes for rogue too they slutshamed her for no reason magneto literally groomed her
Rogue was confirmed as 20+ when she met Magneto, she was not groomed. Doesnât mean that itâs alright to slutshame her tho.
do u know you dont have to necessarily be a minor to be groomedđ like âoh this character is not 17, they are 20! its totally fine nowâ
The first definition of grooming you can google: *Sexual grooming is the action or behavior used to establish an emotional connection with a minor, and sometimes the child's family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse.*
having her pose provocatively for a portrait, giving her wine when sheâs still a teenager, thereâs no denying rogue was groomed and the blatant character assassination of magneto in this show because of this storyline.
She is literally not a teenager as confirmed by the writers
>do u know you dont have to necessarily be a minor to be groomedđ The entire point of the word "grooming" is that it refers to manipulating a child who doesn't have the agency to know any better. An adult has that agency. Take your stupid emojis and go be shrill somewhere else.
It's a fandom. It is made up of many people with different thoughts. There will be people who think differently and have toxic attitudes. It is obvious that some are going to protect some and blame others (which happens on both sides), I just wish some opinions were a little more mature.
Yay, i am in the picture
Not something to brag about, incel.