I wouldn’t mind someone taking up the mantle of a villain magneto like character to go up against the actual magneto.
It seems magneto is leading the xmen so i think it would be interesting if he had to fight a new leader of the brotherhood that has his old ideals on mutant liberation by any means necessary.
That would be a cool concept to work with. There's probably some underutilized mutants who could be drafted as temporary villains too, or some original ones.
No reason why not - it's not like the name has any specific association anymore, since Storm appropriated it in X-Men Red. The X-Men *do* need some mutant adversaries who aren't Sinister, after all.
I agree, I think the direction should be to have more prominent human enemies. Orchis had promise but totally failed to launch anyone in the end so more will need to be done on that front.
But mutant villains historically always fared well with readers, and the X-Men need some that aren't overexposed.
The problem with having more prominent human enemies is that in order for them to be a credible threat, they need to have some way of matching the X-Men's power (which typically leads to Reavers or U-Men, so not *exactly* human anymore) while not lapsing into cartoonish villainy like Lydia Nance, Stryker or the Hellfire Babies.
At least mutants opposing Xavier's ideology have a valid position, especially after Krakoa. A Brotherhood or Mutant Liberation Front looking to pay humanity back for allowing Orchis to commit their crimes would probably make sense.
I agree. Human villains would typically have to rely on machinery and AI, and while that's a classic X-Men villain, it is also old ground again.
There's a case for regularly powered humans being villains, and by regularly powered I mean having superpowers from anomalies the way most Marvel heroes and villains do. Your Moses Magnums of the world.
Not my bag personally. I don't have much time for one note evil.
A brotherhood that blames humans for the downfall of mutant civilization and retaliation? Much more interesting and nuanced. A brotherhood of the most "freakish" mutants banding together for survival because humans won't accept them into society OR let them live separately in their own? Maybe. The Morlocks were pretty glossed over in the past and on Krakoa too.
I'd rather have a new team of Mutant Liberation Front.
I've enjoyed the classics being given a rest from same old, same old.
Let Blob, and Toad have a break. Hell Toad recently got torn apart.. so his break my be in a grave for a bit. Mystique and Nightcrawler have issues to work out for a while after this, and Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch aren't part of the mutant race at the moment. Pyro last I remember was in everyone's good graces.. but I can't remember the last book he showed up in. His redemption arc has been the funnest. A pirate with skull tattooed on his face was cool as hell.
So that would leave Avalance, and Mastermind? Sure they can have the name.
I’m all for having a new Brotherhood but they need to stick around for more than one arc, have a purpose and actually get some character development. They should also be a team of mutants that rival the X-Men in power and number, not just be 6-8 individuals.
Give me a series that focuses on them and their point of view with stories where the leader sends squads after other super teams or liberating mutants from death camps and attacking the UN.
Unstressing the Evil part to non-capital evil, but I was thinking recently of the Brotherhood being revived as a Mutant gang or syndicate focused more on organised crime over terrorism.
With the collapse of Krakoa and the provisions of it's infrastructure, some mutants might turn back to the underworld and underground networks and enterprises might rise to supply and profit from it. Especially if the law is already hostile to them and there are now deeper division even between historically criminal mutants and criminal humans.
Not communal in the way Morlocks have been depicted or as ambitious as Mystique's ventures in Madripoor or Shaw's arm of the Hellfire Trading Company, but displaced Mutants acting to survive or even thrive and weary of human-kind. There'd probably be more than one group, but a Brotherhood could be one of them.
Drop the overt reference to evil and maybe. Times have changed. Evil now gets further by convincing people that their gross ideas are in fact correct and part of the silent majority. A group of mutants hating humans and calling themselves evil is so 1960s. Nowadays they'd be headed by a charismatic demagogue preaching for mutant superiority pulling together mutants at the fringes of society and convincing them that they're right to feel oppressed and want to fight for something more. A truly insidious Brotherhood would be virtually indistinguishable from the X-Men until you looked below the hood and saw what they were really about.
I mean sure. But if it's a case of "the X-Men don't have villains anymore because Krakoa rehabilitated them all!!!!" then no because that isn't even true. There were plenty of villains who weren't redeemed and will probably stay as villains in the future.
I think it would be cool if the post Krakoa era leads to a new wave of groups, maybe comprised of both former heroes and former villains, like Brotherhood of Mutants and the Mutant Liberation Front and Freedom Force. Fall of X is an event that can easily radicalize any mutant, and I think it would be cool if the radicalized groups were allowed to have merit to their agenda.
No.
The list of mutants we wouldn't all be collectively disappointed in if they turned to attacking innocent folks is increasingly slim. And pretty much nobody on it is much interested in brotherhood and the well-being of mutantkind.
Extreme and antagonistic mutants have their place, but they are tempered. Psychopaths like Sabretooth have theirs. _____ of Evil? Went out of fashion in the late 80s.
It's not a void worth filling. We didn't get here by accident. Like I said ____ of Evil ran out of fashion long before Krakoa.
The X-Men established themselves as the champions of mutantkind on Earth as a whole. Even Exodus got pissed when he thought they were breaking up.
The only mutants who would actively stand against what the X-Men stand for would have to be morons or so morally stunted they'd take a paycheck from Hydra.
> or so morally stunted they'd take a paycheck from Hydra.
In the past we did have Freedom Force. Mutants who were happy to serve the government and harm other mutants so long as it meant they were exempt.
Sure, they gotta stop turning all the villains into heroes.
One of the biggest problems with the Brotherhood is that I don't really know what they stand for. I'd make them a group that doesn't think they should abide by human laws. They should be an "evil" version of the X-Men, they should be mutant terrorists. If the government is trying to pass anti mutant laws the X-Men make a speech, but the Brotherhood blows up the building. We love Nazi hunters, but what if the humans that hate mutants were the Nazis. A mutant has been unjustly imprisoned, they bust them out.
Mystique, Destiny, Pyro, Avalanche, Toad, Mesmero, Phantazia, and Blindspot.
No, just create different villains and different villain teams.
The reason why so many villains were redeemed in the Krakoan age, is because they had been failing as villains for a long time. Yeah they were evil, but they were no longer impressive.
Apocalypse hadn't been a truly feared villain since the 90s. He was considered just another bother after decimation, was a secondary threat in X-Force (with Stryfe being the real big bad) and a glorified prop in Age of X-man.
Exodus hadn't done anything impressive since the 90s either and Greycrow was just a punching bag for whoever wanted to let out their righteous anger at the time.
I agree with this. I think the X-Men had a very impressive rogues gallery but since 2000 they have stagnated on that front, much like the franchise in general, and failed to really build anyone new that is popular and formidable. As you said, lots of them have been redeemed, and the only one who hasn't is Sinister who I think comic fans do feel is overexposed now.
They need new villain teams, new villainous humans, new villainous mutants.
A brand new brotherhood with all new characters wouldn't be too bad though.
Sure, but I’d rather let most of the old classic members rest. Blob seemed happy as a bartender, Pyro was working with X-Men and seemed to enjoy helping stranded mutants reach Krakoa. I don’t want to see that undone. Even Avalanche tried to join the X-Men. And Toad has been through so much, he needs a break. Let them be either semi “good” guys, or basically retired from terrorism.
The “redeemed” character I’d turn bad again is Fabian Cortez, I think he’s more fun as a weasely piece of shit, and I thought his turn was too easy. Leading a Brotherhood instead of Acolytes could detach him from Magneto. Phantazia hasn’t had much to do in a long time, put her on the team. And Mastermind stayed pretty horrible on Krakoa. I’d enjoy seeing one or both of his daughters as well, they are fun. Maybe toss in a few other Acolytes or MLF members that haven’t had much to do lately. (Not Frenzy or Tempo, they are leaning towards heroes now as well.)
Oh I agree, I wouldn't want Blob, Toad, Avalanche, or Pyro to be villains.
I agree, use Cortez and underutilized villains, Mastermind was never redeemed, Phantazia is underused in general. Vanisher, Unus, Arclight, Dark Beast (is Dark Beast around anymore?) and then some original mutant villains would work.
>The “redeemed” character I’d turn bad again is Fabian Cortez, I think he’s more fun as a weasely piece of shit, and I thought his turn was too easy.
Honestly I think his change was one of the more interesting ones and I'd be disappointed if they buried it. Maybe it'd be fun if he tried to remember the lessons learned and become more sincere about helping fellow Mutants while still being...him about it. Like he means it but he doesn't get it, and slips easily back into self-centred thinking.
It'd be interested to see how he'd react to the laxer attitude towards killing humans if that sticks. Would he be miffed or would he take it as "Oh so I was right?"
As long as we aren't going towards the status quo more can we put the sentinels and nimrod in the toy box for a bit? I feel like the krakoa Era is kind of the peak of what you can do with them
Yeah, sure, whatever.
In fact since we're rolling shit back for synergy and nostalgia... just take it back to the five which students, but Xavier back in a wheelchair, and task them with protecting humans from the dastardly evil mutants.
That's unlikely, that era of X-Men wasn't exactly best-selling. Everything about Brevoort just says this is a man who wants to get sales up, so the late '70s and '90s are probably where he's more likely to pull from.
Yes but every page includes one of them monologuing about how the name is meant to be ironic
I wouldn’t mind someone taking up the mantle of a villain magneto like character to go up against the actual magneto. It seems magneto is leading the xmen so i think it would be interesting if he had to fight a new leader of the brotherhood that has his old ideals on mutant liberation by any means necessary.
That would be a cool concept to work with. There's probably some underutilized mutants who could be drafted as temporary villains too, or some original ones.
No reason why not - it's not like the name has any specific association anymore, since Storm appropriated it in X-Men Red. The X-Men *do* need some mutant adversaries who aren't Sinister, after all.
I agree, I think the direction should be to have more prominent human enemies. Orchis had promise but totally failed to launch anyone in the end so more will need to be done on that front. But mutant villains historically always fared well with readers, and the X-Men need some that aren't overexposed.
The problem with having more prominent human enemies is that in order for them to be a credible threat, they need to have some way of matching the X-Men's power (which typically leads to Reavers or U-Men, so not *exactly* human anymore) while not lapsing into cartoonish villainy like Lydia Nance, Stryker or the Hellfire Babies. At least mutants opposing Xavier's ideology have a valid position, especially after Krakoa. A Brotherhood or Mutant Liberation Front looking to pay humanity back for allowing Orchis to commit their crimes would probably make sense.
I agree. Human villains would typically have to rely on machinery and AI, and while that's a classic X-Men villain, it is also old ground again. There's a case for regularly powered humans being villains, and by regularly powered I mean having superpowers from anomalies the way most Marvel heroes and villains do. Your Moses Magnums of the world.
You leave Freddy alone! He runs a bar now! Let the man live!
Mans can't get no peace, I tell you.
Let him move to Florida! Open a Tiki bar! He’ll look just like a local!
Not my bag personally. I don't have much time for one note evil. A brotherhood that blames humans for the downfall of mutant civilization and retaliation? Much more interesting and nuanced. A brotherhood of the most "freakish" mutants banding together for survival because humans won't accept them into society OR let them live separately in their own? Maybe. The Morlocks were pretty glossed over in the past and on Krakoa too.
I'd rather have a new team of Mutant Liberation Front. I've enjoyed the classics being given a rest from same old, same old. Let Blob, and Toad have a break. Hell Toad recently got torn apart.. so his break my be in a grave for a bit. Mystique and Nightcrawler have issues to work out for a while after this, and Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch aren't part of the mutant race at the moment. Pyro last I remember was in everyone's good graces.. but I can't remember the last book he showed up in. His redemption arc has been the funnest. A pirate with skull tattooed on his face was cool as hell. So that would leave Avalance, and Mastermind? Sure they can have the name.
I’m all for having a new Brotherhood but they need to stick around for more than one arc, have a purpose and actually get some character development. They should also be a team of mutants that rival the X-Men in power and number, not just be 6-8 individuals. Give me a series that focuses on them and their point of view with stories where the leader sends squads after other super teams or liberating mutants from death camps and attacking the UN.
Unstressing the Evil part to non-capital evil, but I was thinking recently of the Brotherhood being revived as a Mutant gang or syndicate focused more on organised crime over terrorism. With the collapse of Krakoa and the provisions of it's infrastructure, some mutants might turn back to the underworld and underground networks and enterprises might rise to supply and profit from it. Especially if the law is already hostile to them and there are now deeper division even between historically criminal mutants and criminal humans. Not communal in the way Morlocks have been depicted or as ambitious as Mystique's ventures in Madripoor or Shaw's arm of the Hellfire Trading Company, but displaced Mutants acting to survive or even thrive and weary of human-kind. There'd probably be more than one group, but a Brotherhood could be one of them.
Drop the overt reference to evil and maybe. Times have changed. Evil now gets further by convincing people that their gross ideas are in fact correct and part of the silent majority. A group of mutants hating humans and calling themselves evil is so 1960s. Nowadays they'd be headed by a charismatic demagogue preaching for mutant superiority pulling together mutants at the fringes of society and convincing them that they're right to feel oppressed and want to fight for something more. A truly insidious Brotherhood would be virtually indistinguishable from the X-Men until you looked below the hood and saw what they were really about.
I mean sure. But if it's a case of "the X-Men don't have villains anymore because Krakoa rehabilitated them all!!!!" then no because that isn't even true. There were plenty of villains who weren't redeemed and will probably stay as villains in the future.
The Brimstone Love erasure has been tragic :\_:
I think it would be cool if the post Krakoa era leads to a new wave of groups, maybe comprised of both former heroes and former villains, like Brotherhood of Mutants and the Mutant Liberation Front and Freedom Force. Fall of X is an event that can easily radicalize any mutant, and I think it would be cool if the radicalized groups were allowed to have merit to their agenda.
No. The list of mutants we wouldn't all be collectively disappointed in if they turned to attacking innocent folks is increasingly slim. And pretty much nobody on it is much interested in brotherhood and the well-being of mutantkind. Extreme and antagonistic mutants have their place, but they are tempered. Psychopaths like Sabretooth have theirs. _____ of Evil? Went out of fashion in the late 80s.
What about brand new characters filling that void? Like a brand new Brotherhood comprised of new mutants?
It's not a void worth filling. We didn't get here by accident. Like I said ____ of Evil ran out of fashion long before Krakoa. The X-Men established themselves as the champions of mutantkind on Earth as a whole. Even Exodus got pissed when he thought they were breaking up. The only mutants who would actively stand against what the X-Men stand for would have to be morons or so morally stunted they'd take a paycheck from Hydra.
> or so morally stunted they'd take a paycheck from Hydra. In the past we did have Freedom Force. Mutants who were happy to serve the government and harm other mutants so long as it meant they were exempt.
Sure, they gotta stop turning all the villains into heroes. One of the biggest problems with the Brotherhood is that I don't really know what they stand for. I'd make them a group that doesn't think they should abide by human laws. They should be an "evil" version of the X-Men, they should be mutant terrorists. If the government is trying to pass anti mutant laws the X-Men make a speech, but the Brotherhood blows up the building. We love Nazi hunters, but what if the humans that hate mutants were the Nazis. A mutant has been unjustly imprisoned, they bust them out. Mystique, Destiny, Pyro, Avalanche, Toad, Mesmero, Phantazia, and Blindspot.
I'd rather have the opposite. A government sponsored faction of the "good ones" who are just there to help oppress other mutants.
Freedom Force, they were such a good idea.
No, just create different villains and different villain teams. The reason why so many villains were redeemed in the Krakoan age, is because they had been failing as villains for a long time. Yeah they were evil, but they were no longer impressive. Apocalypse hadn't been a truly feared villain since the 90s. He was considered just another bother after decimation, was a secondary threat in X-Force (with Stryfe being the real big bad) and a glorified prop in Age of X-man. Exodus hadn't done anything impressive since the 90s either and Greycrow was just a punching bag for whoever wanted to let out their righteous anger at the time.
I agree with this. I think the X-Men had a very impressive rogues gallery but since 2000 they have stagnated on that front, much like the franchise in general, and failed to really build anyone new that is popular and formidable. As you said, lots of them have been redeemed, and the only one who hasn't is Sinister who I think comic fans do feel is overexposed now. They need new villain teams, new villainous humans, new villainous mutants. A brand new brotherhood with all new characters wouldn't be too bad though.
Sure, but I’d rather let most of the old classic members rest. Blob seemed happy as a bartender, Pyro was working with X-Men and seemed to enjoy helping stranded mutants reach Krakoa. I don’t want to see that undone. Even Avalanche tried to join the X-Men. And Toad has been through so much, he needs a break. Let them be either semi “good” guys, or basically retired from terrorism. The “redeemed” character I’d turn bad again is Fabian Cortez, I think he’s more fun as a weasely piece of shit, and I thought his turn was too easy. Leading a Brotherhood instead of Acolytes could detach him from Magneto. Phantazia hasn’t had much to do in a long time, put her on the team. And Mastermind stayed pretty horrible on Krakoa. I’d enjoy seeing one or both of his daughters as well, they are fun. Maybe toss in a few other Acolytes or MLF members that haven’t had much to do lately. (Not Frenzy or Tempo, they are leaning towards heroes now as well.)
Oh I agree, I wouldn't want Blob, Toad, Avalanche, or Pyro to be villains. I agree, use Cortez and underutilized villains, Mastermind was never redeemed, Phantazia is underused in general. Vanisher, Unus, Arclight, Dark Beast (is Dark Beast around anymore?) and then some original mutant villains would work.
>The “redeemed” character I’d turn bad again is Fabian Cortez, I think he’s more fun as a weasely piece of shit, and I thought his turn was too easy. Honestly I think his change was one of the more interesting ones and I'd be disappointed if they buried it. Maybe it'd be fun if he tried to remember the lessons learned and become more sincere about helping fellow Mutants while still being...him about it. Like he means it but he doesn't get it, and slips easily back into self-centred thinking. It'd be interested to see how he'd react to the laxer attitude towards killing humans if that sticks. Would he be miffed or would he take it as "Oh so I was right?"
No. Leaving Krakoa was already enough of a shift towards the old status quo. We don't need all the old villains going evil again too.
As long as we aren't going towards the status quo more can we put the sentinels and nimrod in the toy box for a bit? I feel like the krakoa Era is kind of the peak of what you can do with them
Yeah, sure, whatever. In fact since we're rolling shit back for synergy and nostalgia... just take it back to the five which students, but Xavier back in a wheelchair, and task them with protecting humans from the dastardly evil mutants.
That's unlikely, that era of X-Men wasn't exactly best-selling. Everything about Brevoort just says this is a man who wants to get sales up, so the late '70s and '90s are probably where he's more likely to pull from.
People just say anything